[ { "start": 0.0, "text": "Julie Fournier: If the product was well designed, it's easy to refurbish. Eco-design for me is the key part of it, because if your product isn't made to be dismantled, you can try as much as you want to refurbish, it won't work.", "end": 17.0 }, { "start": 17.0, "text": "Jingle: My name is Patrick Hypscher, and this is circularity.fm, the podcast about understanding, building, and managing circular business models.", "end": 42.0 }, { "start": 42.0, "text": "Patrick Hypscher: This is the fourth episode of B2B Take-Back. Last episode Thomas Fetting showed how Wilo gets its pumps back without a contract, a deposit, or a payment. Today the question changes. It's no longer just about taking a single product category back, but how to determine which products are eligible for what kind of R strategy when dealing with a catalog of over 300,000 items. Julie Fournier from Legrand and Kevin Chen from Circul'R explain how they decide which product gets which treatment and who has to be at the table for any of it to work. You will find the one-page summary of this conversation in our newsletter, together with the circular economy events coming up around the world. Just sign up at www.circularity.fm.", "end": 97.0 }, { "start": 97.0, "text": "Patrick Hypscher: She has a background in environmental management and started her career in waste prevention before anyone called it circular economy. She worked for years in construction, most recently overseeing the buildings for the Paris Olympic Games. She's in charge of circular economy at Legrand. Welcome, Julie.", "end": 117.0 }, { "start": 117.0, "text": "Julie Fournier: Thank you. Good morning.", "end": 119.0 }, { "start": 119.0, "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Our second guest has a engineering background and started his career as a strategy consultant at Boston Consulting Group. Almost six years ago, he joined the Circul'R founding team at where he is today, the director of consulting, leading a team of more than 20 consultants. Welcome, Kevin.", "end": 140.0 }, { "start": 140.0, "text": "Kevin Chen: Hello?", "end": 141.0 }, { "start": 141.0, "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Julie, Kevin, it's great to have you with your expertise, and we wanna talk about business, but b- before that, I have a personal question about take-back. What is one product from your private life that you don't wanna give back to the producer? Julie?", "end": 159.0 }, { "start": 159.0, "text": "Julie Fournier: That I don't want to give back? Good question. I would say anything that is, has become a bit personal, something that I feel strongly about, clearly I want to keep it for myself. But anything else, I mean, um, I would be glad to give it back to the manufacturer.", "end": 181.0 }, { "start": 181.0, "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Yeah. Good one. Kevin, how is it for you?", "end": 183.0 }, { "start": 183.0, "text": "Kevin Chen: Yeah. So for those who already know me, I'm a keen cyclist and I'm a bike mechanic on my free time. Spend almost every Saturday in a community workshop in Paris helping people to repair their bikes. And that's the object I couldn't get rid of, I couldn't give in a take-back scheme. In the community workshop, many people are showing up with a bike or a wheel, something that they are ready to return or to discard. And that's pretty absurd because sometimes it just needs a sm- a small repair hack. What I love the most is, finding bikes from the '70s or the '80s that are still okay, that sometimes outlast modern short-lived models. Uh, and for me, it's a reminder that the linear habits can push us to replace things instead of fix them. And while here is not about selling product and give them to a r- recycling scheme or s- or something like this, but it's mostly about life exten- lifetime extension of products preserving their value at the source where they are most functional.", "end": 247.0 }, { "start": 247.0, "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Yeah. I c- can also sense the emotion, Kevin, there. So that's quite a dedication. So similar to what also Julie said, yeah, when you're also emotionally attached. I wonder how this relates to the products of Legrand. What's the, what's the emotional attachment of an, an, to a normal customer to, to your products? But before we go there, Julie, give us a short overview. W- who's Legrand, and how does the product range look like?", "end": 274.0 }, { "start": 274.0, "text": "Julie Fournier: Yeah, absolutely. Legrand is a French group based in, uh, France, in Limoges. It's historical because it used to be linked to La Porcelaine de Limoges. We operate in 150 countries, and we sell electric products for buildings. Our main market used to be what we call essential infrastructure, meaning sockets, switches, and everything that can go in a house or in a in an office building. We have new markets, so we will sell anything that will help you consume less energy. And the last one, it's data centers, it's a, a huge part for us. And, um, we have more than 300,000 different project reference. So that's a lot, but everything you can see in your home or office that carries electricity could be made by Legrand.", "end": 331.0 }, { "start": 331.0, "text": "Patrick Hypscher: With such a range and such a, let's say, impact you have, you said more than 150 countries worldwide, it's no surprise that at some point refurbishment starts to become relevant. How did it start? What happened that refurbishment was relevant for Legrand?", "end": 349.0 }, { "start": 349.0, "text": "Julie Fournier: Clearly we have different cases. Some of the time, uh, we bought companies that were already a bit, um, engaged on, uh, repairing, maintenance, and so it was a logic, follow-up to, to go towards a refurbishment. But in some cases, it was quite interesting because that's our clients that asked for it. It was the case in France, for example, there was a big major construction company called Eiffage that came to us and asked us for, refurbished emergency lighting. The green sign you see everywhere also, uh, that guides you toward the, the emergency exits. And they said to us, \"Okay, it's a safety product, so we need to have reassurance that it works well, but it's something that is, everywhere, easy to dismantle from the building, and, uh, we would be interested.\" And we were really amazed that one of our clients asked di-directly for this, so we worked with him. At first it was, I think, three to four years ago, so it was a test. But then it grew into a, a real business, so that's... We also have good stories like that that's, that are, I think, interesting to share.", "end": 431.0 }, { "start": 431.0, "text": "Patrick Hypscher: And just to clarify, because of course we also wanna talk about take-back and refurbishment. They kind of go together, but not necessarily. When we discuss refurbishment, you mentioned the emergency lighting. Give us a feeling, so how many different product types or categories do you cover with refurbishment?", "end": 452.0 }, { "start": 452.0, "text": "Julie Fournier: We have a lot of others depending on the countries. So for example, we have a door entry system in Belgium, a UPS, uh, which is an interruptible power source, in a lot of countries, including India, Italy, even in South America. We have some specific professional devices regarding data centers in the US. So a lot of different examples, uh, across the world, depending of our project, product range in this country, we also have special devices. Um, we have a subsidiary that's called Legrand Care that produces telecare devices that you have at your home, and if you have a problem, you can push a button, and it calls an emergency, assistance. This kind of products we also take back, so it really depends on the, the countries and the products.", "end": 510.0 }, { "start": 510.0, "text": "Patrick Hypscher: And is it fair to assume that you only take back products where you have the ability to refurbish them?", "end": 517.0 }, { "start": 517.0, "text": "Julie Fournier: Yeah, absolutely. For the moment, we refurbish ourselves because we have manufacturing sites all across the globe. Obviously we are the, the experts on our projects, so we are the best person to say what a refurbishment should look like, uh, what tests should be done on a product, what are the parts that are the most likely to be, um, switched, repaired, and so on. So clearly we have the knowledge. We don't always have the facilities, but, if the product was well designed, it's easy to refurbish. If not, that's another problem, and, and eco-design for me is the key part of it, because if your product isn't made to be dismantled, you can try as much as you want to refurbish, it won't work.", "end": 573.0 }, { "start": 573.0, "text": "Patrick Hypscher: You're already looking into the, let's say, kind of criteria you apply when you decide what product to take back and refurbish. So us a bit of an overview. Given the sheer amount of products, more than 300,000, how do you decide which ones are good candidates for take-back and refurbishment?", "end": 592.0 }, { "start": 592.0, "text": "Julie Fournier: I would love to have a clear picture. It's very hard. Clearly there is, the question of costs. So if the product has no residual value at the end, I think about sockets and switches, which are really small products, really widespread with really low value. In France, we have some kind of threshold. For example, I know that it was used in the household appliances, for example. We know that a product under €100, it's gonna be difficult to have a good, economic equation. For example, if the product is electronic, you have an electronic card inside, you still have a lot of value in the product, the refurbishment will be interesting from a, an economic view. If not, it's gonna be really, really difficult. We don't have many clients asking us for it, so it's also a bit of we need to feel like there is a market for refurbished products. We have a lot of parameters clearly, but demand is the first topic. Residual value of the product is another topic. And as we said, if, if the product is correctly, uh, eco-designed and easy to dismantle s- and made for it, I it's the main three criterias I would use.", "end": 676.0 }, { "start": 676.0, "text": "Patrick Hypscher: And you mentioned before that there has been some historical, let's say, organic, say tendency that certain companies you integrated later on already have it or in certain countries. So give us a bit of an idea how much of the current refurbished take-back operations is, let's say, organically decentralized developed, and how much is, let's say, strategically on purpose designed?", "end": 702.0 }, { "start": 702.0, "text": "Julie Fournier: Yeah. For the moment, it's opportunities are dr- are driving this market, clearly. In India, for example, we have a brand called Numeric that has this service part, I mean, that's their strategy. They have, according to me, a good advantage because they are used to service repair and so on. So really it's, it's in their DNA to go towards these kind of models because it's a new service for the customers. But a lot of them, yeah, are oppor-opportunities, clearly. I really would like to target a f- a few products in the group. Uh, I talked about UPS, for example. Those are big products that need maintenance, that are repairable, and so on. And, um, I would love to have a strategic global offer in the group on these kind of products because we sell them, uh, in a lot of areas. And for me, they are like the top, top client product for refurbishment. And they are not cheap, so it would be interesting for a lot of our customers to have, I think, the option to buy maybe a refurbished product at smaller price.", "end": 779.0 }, { "start": 779.0, "text": "Patrick Hypscher: That brings me to Kevin. Kevin, Julie just raised this question about a global circular strategy for a certain kind of a product that sounds like something you've experienced and done. Maybe before we start, give us a, a quick overview of Circul'R and then how you help companies to, unlock such a potential, and what would be your approach to come up with, let's say, a roadmap to back these kinds of products and refurbish them?", "end": 809.0 }, { "start": 809.0, "text": "Kevin Chen: Yeah. Thanks for your question. Circul'R has been turning circular economy into a economical strategic advantage. We have been working with executive teams, with the EPRs, the Ext-extended Producer Responsibility Organizations, public institutions also to strengthen the value chains. So in practice, we are helping the, the teams with modeling their business model, finding what are the potential opportunities, building reverse logistics and modeling the financial flows that could be helping, we've been doing that for about ten years. Today we have a team of about forty experts. It's been five hundred also project that we have been delivering for more than a hundred organizations, mostly in France but also some project abroad, in Americas, in Asia, in Africa. We also been working a lot with coalition logic, so that's building a pool of stakeholders that will be sharing the risk, the costs, and building together the mass that could be helping the project to achieve up the targets. We've been supported by Legrand since last year. Legrand's been a shareholder like this helping us but to... I have to stress that we are still ma-maintaining a strict uh, autonomy in our activities. And lastly, we have been, since last year, a member of the coordination group in the European stakeholder circular economy stakeholder platform, with the... giving, giving us a strong fit in the public policies on circularity, circular economy. And to get back to your question, scaling business model requires a lot of things. I would mention first the product mix, where Julie already gave a few answers. Establishing the pro- the products mix is instrumental. It's balancing high-value asset that could be driving a lot of profit margins for these models we earn. On the other hand some high volume items that could help cr- secure the critical masses, that are required to have a cost-effective logistics. And on the other hand when I want to mention a dual-sided approach it's having a synergistic business model mix where the investment in some capabilities such as repair and maintenance, could be also feeding into other models such as leasing, refurbishment, second-hand sales. This could create strong maintaining operational and financial synergies with a broader portfolio, lowering the costs, mitigating also the input and supply on raw materials, the risk associated to su- to supply chains. Sometimes some of the models co- could also unlock operating margins. We had some, some measure with sometime up to five percent point higher margins than the, the linear ones. And lastly, I cannot not mention the need to, to mobilize all your value chains, the value chain actors in the, in, in the process. If we want to put a model at scale, it's important to, to involve industrial manufacturers, di-distributors, refurbishers, recyclers, the EPR organizations, and the fina-financial institutions that need to be also fueling the systems. Banks, insurers, and so on. This is also a critical step, mapping the dependencies, aligning everybody's constraints, their objectives, finding the... designing the right value-sharing mechanism so that every partners can see what's, what would be the incentive for them and the reason for them to participate for a better system. At Circul'R, we leverage our expertise in building and operating these cross-industries coalitions like this to translate the value-sharing frameworks into something that could be operationally viable.", "end": 1045.0 }, { "start": 1045.0, "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Okay. And I wanna come back to the, let's say, mix of instruments and practices you mentioned, or have also, like, high value, low volume and then, let's say, lower value, high volume. How do you decide which R strategies are the right ones? Especially Julie, for example, mentioned some switches and sockets are value... from a value perspective, probably not so interesting. Others might argue they could be attractive for recycling. So but of course, recycling different topic than refurbishment. So Kevin, h-how to navigate these different R strategies given you have quite a comprehensive product portfolio?", "end": 1084.0 }, { "start": 1084.0, "text": "Kevin Chen: I will answer your question with the t-three main points that come to mind. The first one, Julie already mentioned it, is the technical specifications of the products and their economical viability. So for that point, this is of of course, the primary decision factor. It's match-matching the f- the technical fe-feasibility with the economical the economical one. So we are talking on one side eco-design of the product and resi-residual value of the product, to optimize the product mix I mentioned. And this is true in any sectors that we can tackle to design what would be the right strategy to be to be implemented. So Julie talked a- talked about the... her example in the building appliance e-equipment. To give another example in the textile industry where we also worked on this topic, we worked with a big company in the textile industry that were... is producing and distributing all kind of textiles. We could find a model that was economically viable, mixing a product mix with high-value pieces such as jeans, coats, suits that would be high, the high-value ones and could be dedicated to repair, resales models, sometime leasing models also. And balancing that with high volume basic garments such as T-shirts shirts, and so on, that could pro-provide the mass that is required to justify the collection, the sorting, the recycling infrastructures. It's having to understand what would be the objectives of each stakeholders, h- what are their cons- their constraints, training them, so it's sharing responsibilities, aligning the incentives of each uh, stakeholders, uh, finding what could be the operational roadblocks and turning the linear habits into uh, something that is uh, functionally uh, working on a reverse ecosystem. And lastly, I mentioned three points. The last one would be the environmental um, readiness. And when I say environmental, I'm not talking about here about the planet, but infrastructure and regulatory environment. So in each market, each, each country, companies have to adapt their strategy because partner ecosystem could be different. In some of the markets, there are sometimes already a return or a take-back system that could be informal that is... that's already working and where a company has to deal with. But sometimes the regulatory landscape could also be a constraint that company have to be dealing with. So all of this environmental this, this landscape, has to be taken into account to build the necessary operational frameworks and make the system work at the end.", "end": 1263.0 }, { "start": 1263.0, "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Yeah. Yeah, that ill-illustrates pretty, pretty well the complexity of such an project or process. And I wanna stick to your last point, Kevin, with the context and the regulatory environment as you framed it, ask the question to you, Julie, when it comes to the EPR scheme and your products. You mentioned a couple of products you're refurbishing and taking back. I know in s- in particular in France, there are a couple of EPR schemes out there, and I can imagine some of your products are under the scope of the EPR and others are not. And then you have to deal with some more actors and the fees and do's and don'ts. So how does the existence of the EPR scheme change your take-back process, where you pick it, the incentives, the communication?", "end": 1316.0 }, { "start": 1316.0, "text": "Julie Fournier: Yeah, cl-clearly, uh, France is a champion for EPRs because I think, uh, that in France all my products are covered by an EPR system because we have what we call WEEE, so electronic waste, but we also have construction materials that have a special EPR that's, uh, exists only in France. So I think all my, my products are in this scheme. I can share with you my feedback from what we see in France. It's the volume solution, they deal with a lot of volume. Our emergency lighting system, for example, problem is clearly the EPR systems right now are systems for recycling. Clearly not for re-reuse, not for refurbish. So these products are, treated as waste, so it means that our, uh, lightings are put in a big box that is themself emptied in other big box and every product is so problem is we have a lot of volume but really low quality because these products are really treated as waste. That's a big problem for us because we receive a lot of broken products and so on. So we have a lot of sorting steps in our process. So that's interesting, but I, I really think that we need to review this EPR scheme to orient them towards, uh, reuse and refurbish, because for the moment they are not. So that's clearly an opportunity, but it, it needs a, a bit of work. And, um, we use other take-back models. We need a mix. So we have low volumes, high quality ones. It means we are directly going to, for example, facility managers of buildings because they have a lot of our products and they need to, uh, do maintenance, so they will really remove them quite in a proper way and they will be able... we will be able to give them a special box. They will be able to put the products. So in that case it's difficult for us because a lot of these people are not our clients because we sell to distributors who sell to electricians who, uh, put the product in our, in the building. We have contacts with facility managers and, uh, contractors, but they are not our main clients. So we need to have new relations, new contracts with these people to organize the take-back model.", "end": 1478.0 }, { "start": 1478.0, "text": "Patrick Hypscher: So basically, if I understand correctly, you have a hybrid model that is, for the high volume, you used the EPR actors as your supplier, but then you also additionally have a take-back scheme that targets more the products that are in a better condition, so to get them out the stream before treated as waste, so to say. Are, like, the incentives for facility managers to join that program? Es-especially given that they are not your clients, you can't give them benefits in some new products.", "end": 1510.0 }, { "start": 1510.0, "text": "Julie Fournier: Yeah. That's a, a difficult part. Clearly for the moment on emergency lighting, for example, we have difficulties to have the right economic model because it's a really cheap product, a lot below the €100, uh, threshold I was talking about. Some of them are also clients because as a facility manager, they will take a product, put another one. That's what we sell for the moment. For other products, we are able to pay for take-back. So it's, um, obviously it's much easier, but anyway, it's a waste so they have to take care of it. The more the system is going forward, the more value you know that there is and the, the more you will be able to buy back the products.", "end": 1562.0 }, { "start": 1562.0, "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Yep. Yeah, interesting.", "end": 1564.0 }, { "start": 1564.0, "text": "Kevin Chen: Yeah, as Julie mentioned, it's not sometimes not only an economical incentive for companies to participate in su-such a take-back loop because it's could also be a way to secure the supply chains. And in France, we can see that a lot, and also in the w-west part of Europe, other sectors such as the automotive industry. So the automotive industry has been, have been seeing a, a EPR that has been developed. The point that I want to stress is that we can see that the automotive sup... uh, OEMs, they want... they are racing today to build their, their own proprietary take-back system, building their own network. And this is, of course, for an economic cost standpoint, but not for the financial advantage of having to deal or not with the EPR, but to secure their supply in, steel, aluminum, and raw materials that they could reinject in their supply chains, the EPR systems. They are valuing like this the secondary feedstock of materials to secure their businesses. So that's an-another point that I think it's worth sharing regarding the need for companies to secure their system going beyond the regulatory constraint and the financial incentive of that.", "end": 1645.0 }, { "start": 1645.0, "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Yeah. Yeah, totally agree. And for everyone who's interested in that, if you haven't listened to that, the first two episodes of the series are about securing the materials. The first one with DERIX about timber, getting access to used timber and using that again. The second one with Wilo is about critical raw materials for permanent magnets. And also, Julie, to what you what you've said, giving the actors an incentive to return it. There was a quite interesting conversation in the third episode from the automotive industry with Knorr-Bremse, where there seems to be a deposit system already well-established that gives repair shops, retailers, and so on an incentive to give back products and then get some points which they can use to, to then buy refurbished products once again. So that seems to be pretty established, as Kevin also mentioned, in the automotive industry. It's pretty clear that if we wanna to take back, we have to orchestrate many stakeholders. Kevin, can you share some, let's say, hacks, tips and tricks how to do that? How to move a mostly linear supply chain and motivate a few actors to join a more circular logistics?", "end": 1721.0 }, { "start": 1721.0, "text": "Kevin Chen: Yeah. So I already talked about building a reverse logistic that have to destroy the roadblocks of the linear supply chains to be reversed. We talked about the product specificities with the eco-design of the product that are also needed to make it simpler to a more circular models. Mapping all the constraints, the stakeholders' objectives, their incentive to move forward. I mentioned also the model, so how to s- to share the economical upside of or the, the responsibilities that are linked, to build the supply chain that could be beneficial to everyone. Finding the right level of incentive across all the, the intermediaries stakeholders. This is a critical point. It's something that we worked a lot on, building the right models because the, the economical models are very different from the traditional linear ones. If you asked a, a financial stakeholder we work also with of French banks that are telling us that they don't know, how to model the economics of a circular loop because it's so different. The insurers all have the same problem. So that's something that is crucial in order to have the... to share the cake equally between all the players. But the last point on that, I think the most important one would be to, gather every players around the table, the same objectives because a single brand and its own supply chain would be hard to shift by its own. We saw that in various industries. And the answer to that is the stakeholders around the table. The single brand could not w- be working alone on that, and while the an industry-wide coalition could be helping the right move. As, as Julie know she and Legrand is taking part in some of the coalitions that we have in France gathering different industrial players, sometimes across industries, secure the supply chains, finding the right models that could be working. And like this, it's not only a small brand which is it sometimes could be a big brand also but having a small part in a wide value chain but, several players that weight a lot more and that could drive a larger part of the industry towards more resilient supply chains. So sharing infrastructures, investments, standardizing practices, achieving economic of scales. So that's all the benefits that we can see with the coordination of a lot of various industry-wide stakeholders.", "end": 1888.0 }, { "start": 1888.0, "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Okay. Yeah, that, that makes sense, Kevin. My last question is also, let's say, a reverse one in a sense that you shared some learnings now with the audience, and I'm pretty sure you're facing challenges right now and wanna give you the opportunity to also share these challenges right now because sometimes maybe one of the listeners has an idea and can reach out and help you. So what are, things that you're busy with these days and where you would like to pick the brain of some other circular economy professionals?", "end": 1923.0 }, { "start": 1923.0, "text": "Julie Fournier: For my part, I also have an-another topic that I would like to push forward in the group. We also have some small examples, but nothing at a strategic level, is product-as-a-service. For me, it's clearly a model that could fit a lot of our products and that would be... I mean, because our difficulty number one is the take-back program, as you... as was the topic of today. So if we operate in a product-as-a-service way, we really have no question anymore about take-back because the product remain ours. We can take it back for... even for spare parts, for everything we want. So clearly, that's a model that interests me a lot, uh, and I... that I believe in because of everything we said about the resilience of supply chain, about critical materials. I have a lot of products with electronics, so clearly a lot of components that are valuable. So for me, that's, that... I have no question of take-back anymore, so that would be perfect for me, obviously. But anyway it won't be possible for every product in the Legrand portfolio. So anyway, I will need to work on refurbishment. But I would, we talked about take-back via EPR directly through facility managers. We also have a lot of discussions with our distributor that could be also, yeah, engaged in this take-back model. So I still need to operate this mix and see how to organize it the... in the most efficient way. So I really need a couple of years of experience on take-back models to find really the good approach. So that's my two goals in the future. So I would be delighted to talk about product-as-a-service with anyone and take-back models that are a bit out of the box. That would be interesting for me too.", "end": 2049.0 }, { "start": 2049.0, "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Cool. A, a humble recommendation here in the podcast. Two years ago we did 16 episodes on product-as-a-service. Happy to make a curated pick for you afterwards. Yeah. Very cool. Kevin, what are your challenges right now?", "end": 2065.0 }, { "start": 2065.0, "text": "Kevin Chen: Yeah, I think about something that, we are also currently working on. And it's pretty funny because it's something that relates me to my earlier career. So before start... before going into consulting, I was a data sci- data scientist. And the data and the traceability of everything is instrumental in the circular economy. So today we can see that there are some regulation, or, and some, I don't want to say fear, but some doubt from companies about what would be the impact of the EPR, the digital product passport, for example. And that would be my question actually. Knowing that the data is something that is needed for circular loops, for reverse supply chains, take-back operations, and so on, how can, we build a data framework which would be enhancing the transparency in order to have a model that could be operating across sectors, across stakeholders, across the markets, and across competitors? And that's my point because the competitors won't be so eager to share every, every data. While some of these... some of the data could be deeply needed. So the balance, having to find the balance between the competition and the collaboration between the brands, the, the manufacturers, so that the confident- the commercial confidentiality is maintained while the system, the circular economy system could be also feeding on the data sharing.", "end": 2171.0 }, { "start": 2171.0, "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Wonderful. To everyone who's out there listening right now and feels you have an idea or can share an experience, you find the link to Julie and Kevin's L- LinkedIn profile in the show notes. So just feel free to reach out. Julie, Kevin, thanks a lot for, let's say, opening the books a bit and sharing some aspects of the journey with us and some hacks and learnings. I learned the j- journey isn't over yet. It will continue. We have new challenges ahead. Thanks once again for this conversation.", "end": 2200.0 }, { "start": 2200.0, "text": "Kevin Chen: Pleasure.", "end": 2204.0 }, { "start": 2204.0, "text": "Patrick Hypscher: That was the fourth episode of B2B Take-Back. Thanks to Julie and Kevin for showing us how to navigate take-back in a large product portfolio. The one-page summary is in the newsletter at circularity.fm, along with the upcoming circular events around the world. In the final episode of this series, Anthony Levy of Circularity First explains how to build demand for what comes back, drawing on his years of selling Cisco's remanufactured network hardware. Until then, best of luck in building profitable circular business models. And please don't forget, the most abundant renewable resource is your imagination.", "end": 2244.0 }, { "start": 2244.0, "text": "Jingle: My name is Patrick Hypscher, and this is circularity.fm, the podcast about understanding, building, and managing circular business models.", "end": 2245.0 } ]