[
  {
    "start": 3.02,
    "end": 8.35,
    "text": "The second layer of saccharity is designing for construction and for deconstruction too."
  },
  {
    "start": 9.09,
    "end": 14.41,
    "text": "Yeah, the materials written there are purity – the wood, metal connectors, insulation…."
  },
  {
    "start": 14.95,
    "end": 21.63,
    "text": "So this means that building extension itself holds high residual material value in future."
  },
  {
    "start": 22.59,
    "end": 26.47,
    "text": "We're tracking these materials so than fifty or sixty years from now!"
  },
  {
    "start": 27.09,
    "end": 32.77,
    "text": "This model can be adapted transformed and clinic disassembled, reused as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 40.27,
    "end": 50.59,
    "text": "My name is Patrick Hübscher and this is Circularity FM the podcast about understanding building and managing circular business models."
  },
  {
    "start": 58.65,
    "end": 63.77,
    "text": "Europe needs millions of new homes And it need to stop paving over open land."
  },
  {
    "start": 64.69,
    "end": 66.97,
    "text": "Those two demands look incompatible."
  },
  {
    "start": 67.53,
    "end": 76.47,
    "text": "until you look up Every flat in the city is a plot that's already zoned, connected and served by road, school or tram."
  },
  {
    "start": 76.59,
    "end": 76.83,
    "text": "stop."
  },
  {
    "start": 77.37,
    "end": 79.47,
    "text": "We just ignore this third dimension."
  },
  {
    "start": 80.11,
    "end": 86.25,
    "text": "Rooftop extensions turn an unused layer into housing without a single square meter of new land."
  },
  {
    "start": 87.25,
    "end": 90.07,
    "text": "Done well there are also cleanest way to build."
  },
  {
    "start": 90.51,
    "end": 98.55,
    "text": "Timber instead of concrete prefabricated parts – a shell which goes up for weeks while residents stay on their flats."
  },
  {
    "start": 99.21,
    "end": 100.67,
    "text": "So, why does it still happen?"
  },
  {
    "start": 100.87,
    "end": 101.93,
    "text": "one roof at a time?"
  },
  {
    "start": 102.49,
    "end": 104.35,
    "text": "Welcome to Rooftop Extensions."
  },
  {
    "start": 104.55,
    "end": 106.27,
    "text": "A three-episode series!"
  },
  {
    "start": 106.93,
    "end": 111.49,
    "text": "We look at the case for building on top social commercial ecological."
  },
  {
    "start": 112.07,
    "end": 126.15,
    "text": "then add one real project in Dresden and finally add what would take this standard procedure rather than AP spoke except our guest of today is Thais."
  },
  {
    "start": 126.31,
    "end": 129.13,
    "text": "he's the co-founder of creative city solutions."
  },
  {
    "start": 129.21,
    "end": 129.65,
    "text": "welcome Thais."
  },
  {
    "start": 129.97,
    "end": 130.57,
    "text": "Thanks for having me."
  },
  {
    "start": 131.109,
    "end": 135.25,
    "text": "Pais, how did you enter that segment of rooftop extension?"
  },
  {
    "start": 135.47,
    "end": 135.589,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 136.049,
    "end": 136.85,
    "text": "That's a good question."
  },
  {
    "start": 138.39,
    "end": 152.709,
    "text": "I started actually have background in construction engineering and within tech always was looking for How can we make the construction industry The project development industry Actually more efficient More innovative."
  },
  {
    "start": 153.429,
    "end": 158.91,
    "text": "as i Was working at the real estate developer I was approached by housing association."
  },
  {
    "start": 159.649,
    "end": 168.609,
    "text": "And that housing association, they asked me actually can we... Can you arrange for us a rate of fit to an energy label D?"
  },
  {
    "start": 169.089,
    "end": 171.67,
    "text": "To an A plus level."
  },
  {
    "start": 172.41,
    "end": 174.19,
    "text": "So big question!"
  },
  {
    "start": 175.29,
    "end": 188.19,
    "text": "From there I started doing some in-excel calculations and discovered really early before we did expensive research on what is the policy of roof or windows etc."
  },
  {
    "start": 189.23,
    "end": 193.95,
    "text": "we discovered it would be like sixty to a hundred thousand euros per apartment."
  },
  {
    "start": 194.53,
    "end": 196.45,
    "text": "To do the energy we rich with it."
  },
  {
    "start": 197.39,
    "end": 203.91,
    "text": "and so, We went back through the homeowner association And said okay well this will be the price if you want to fulfill your ambitions?"
  },
  {
    "start": 205.03,
    "end": 206.35,
    "text": "Then we started talking with them."
  },
  {
    "start": 206.45,
    "end": 206.989,
    "text": "what is we?"
  },
  {
    "start": 207.51,
    "end": 211.489,
    "text": "because there were two big building blocks next to each other Like big parking blocks."
  },
  {
    "start": 211.67,
    "end": 212.649,
    "text": "post for our building blocks."
  },
  {
    "start": 213.29,
    "end": 219.69,
    "text": "What If we build ten extra homes of Each Of Them on top and we sell them on the market."
  },
  {
    "start": 220.049,
    "end": 224.63,
    "text": "And instead of the profits, new construct homes go to the real estate developer."
  },
  {
    "start": 225.03,
    "end": 232.69,
    "text": "they flow back into housing association from which they can finance their energy renovation."
  },
  {
    "start": 233.489,
    "end": 236.01,
    "text": "That was actually quite a big success."
  },
  {
    "start": 236.23,
    "end": 254.01,
    "text": "We were able to flow back almost eight hundred thousand euros per apartment block Back in the homeowner's association In that way to finance everything actually, and that was our starting point for creative city solutions."
  },
  {
    "start": 254.649,
    "end": 260.21,
    "text": "And in this way we thought okay what is necessary to upskill this?"
  },
  {
    "start": 260.31,
    "end": 265.09,
    "text": "And systemize it use as one of the solutions?"
  },
  {
    "start": 265.29,
    "end": 271.53,
    "text": "or well the multitude challenges face today."
  },
  {
    "start": 271.85,
    "end": 272.57,
    "text": "Okay,"
  },
  {
    "start": 272.67,
    "end": 273.07,
    "text": "wonderful."
  },
  {
    "start": 273.45,
    "end": 278.47,
    "text": "I mean so you're pretty familiar with the segment and already mentioned to challenges that housing sector faces."
  },
  {
    "start": 279.15,
    "end": 279.61,
    "text": "what are they?"
  },
  {
    "start": 280.51,
    "end": 285.55,
    "text": "Yeah So i think in the Netherlands but i think that counts for all of Europe right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 285.97,
    "end": 289.83,
    "text": "we see more than one which is always focused on like we have a housing shortage."
  },
  {
    "start": 290.43,
    "end": 294.85,
    "text": "That's really good in newspapers But actually there were way more challenges Right!"
  },
  {
    "start": 295.45,
    "end": 313.91,
    "text": "We have the housing shortages We have energy crisis You need to decarbonize almost all of our building stock by two thousand fifty at least by the EU regulations, but also if we want to face the climate crisis and We see what I call like a product market fit."
  },
  {
    "start": 314.39,
    "end": 317.43,
    "text": "There's no product-market fit for The current Building Stock."
  },
  {
    "start": 317.51,
    "end": 323.63,
    "text": "we have you See different kind of population looking for their homes And they simply cannot pay for it."
  },
  {
    "start": 324.43,
    "end": 325.65,
    "text": "those three crises?"
  },
  {
    "start": 326.65,
    "end": 330.21,
    "text": "i think all come a bit together in those housing associations."
  },
  {
    "start": 330.73,
    "end": 339.47,
    "text": "They wanna renovate our buildings, they don't have the money for it and They're locked in their decision-making process to do so."
  },
  {
    "start": 339.83,
    "end": 340.09,
    "text": "Okay"
  },
  {
    "start": 340.23,
    "end": 342.65,
    "text": "that sounds indeed like a challenging situation."
  },
  {
    "start": 342.95,
    "end": 347.11,
    "text": "And how can rooftop extension here help twist this situation?"
  },
  {
    "start": 348.03,
    "end": 352.75,
    "text": "Yeah So first of all I think is good old To mention like roofed up extension."
  },
  {
    "start": 353.05,
    "end": 364.23,
    "text": "we called optoppen by the way in The Netherlands We also did like big research within England's Spain and France and they embraced the word up-topping."
  },
  {
    "start": 365.45,
    "end": 366.85,
    "text": "You guys are familiar with it."
  },
  {
    "start": 366.93,
    "end": 371.05,
    "text": "yet in Germany, let's call rooftop extension for now."
  },
  {
    "start": 371.73,
    "end": 376.01,
    "text": "so I don't think rooftop extension is like the final solution for everything right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 376.17,
    "end": 380.91,
    "text": "It's a part of the solution for the housing crisis while at the same time doing something."
  },
  {
    "start": 385.45,
    "end": 394.25,
    "text": "And I think rooftop extension can break the deadlock where housing associations are in, because they want to do their energy renovation."
  },
  {
    "start": 394.33,
    "end": 412.33,
    "text": "They don't have resources to do so and this way it creates its own resources on their roof action at the same time for monopolies and governments who wants to do something like intensify their neighbourhoods."
  },
  {
    "start": 413.29,
    "end": 423.41,
    "text": "This is a really efficient way, without the need for new green fields or new infrastructure because the infrastructure already there."
  },
  {
    "start": 424.79,
    "end": 430.21,
    "text": "And actually it provides room for new amenities right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 430.35,
    "end": 440.97,
    "text": "New coffee shops around the corner because they will be new extra homes with different kind of population and in that way can help Some of those prices."
  },
  {
    "start": 441.23,
    "end": 441.33,
    "text": "One"
  },
  {
    "start": 441.41,
    "end": 447.05,
    "text": "thing is like the theory, it sounds super attractive but other things are also available space."
  },
  {
    "start": 447.41,
    "end": 454.73,
    "text": "so if we look at let's say Amsterdam Netherlands maybe even Europe or parts of Europe what's the potential for off-top there?"
  },
  {
    "start": 454.89,
    "end": 457.45,
    "text": "Like the actual potential in terms of how this works?"
  },
  {
    "start": 457.59,
    "end": 462.21,
    "text": "So actually that where started with four years ago Those two first projects."
  },
  {
    "start": 462.35,
    "end": 468.47,
    "text": "and then we thought okay How big is this potential to upscale these innovations?"
  },
  {
    "start": 469.01,
    "end": 473.55,
    "text": "So we first looked in certain neighborhoods, in Amsterdam."
  },
  {
    "start": 474.43,
    "end": 480.41,
    "text": "And we discovered if there are like twenty apartment blocks... ...we can already create three hundred homes."
  },
  {
    "start": 481.39,
    "end": 483.73,
    "text": "and then we broadened that scope…."
  },
  {
    "start": 484.29,
    "end": 496.37,
    "text": "…and saw only the easy flat roofs of post-war building blocks have an over dimension so they could have extra weight."
  },
  {
    "start": 496.93,
    "end": 500.27,
    "text": "we can do an MSTEM, almost eight thousand new homes."
  },
  {
    "start": 500.89,
    "end": 505.89,
    "text": "Well at the same time READFRO fits multiple by four those homes below."
  },
  {
    "start": 507.23,
    "end": 513.87,
    "text": "and if we look broader because we did our research... We came up with a number of almost one hundred thousand homes in The Netherlands."
  },
  {
    "start": 514.669,
    "end": 520.15,
    "text": "well there are other research institutes like TU Delft who say it can be even way higher!"
  },
  {
    "start": 520.409,
    "end": 526.15,
    "text": "If we use all the potential for all the roofs you can go up to three hundred thousands new homes."
  },
  {
    "start": 526.87,
    "end": 534.29,
    "text": "But if you look at research from the Economic Institute for example, they say like that actual potential was way lower."
  },
  {
    "start": 535.01,
    "end": 538.05,
    "text": "It's not like... The problem is okay."
  },
  {
    "start": 538.15,
    "end": 551.849,
    "text": "maybe we have a lot of flat roofs where we can build on top but You have to fix the permits, the parking ground lease and all those factors combined And also the housing association."
  },
  {
    "start": 552.069,
    "end": 567.189,
    "text": "hundred percent in the Netherlands has to agree To their proposal And those factors decrease that number hugely, so they say maybe forty thousand new homes in the Netherlands this way."
  },
  {
    "start": 568.13,
    "end": 572.65,
    "text": "That's for us enough reason to exist and make it possible in The Netherlands."
  },
  {
    "start": 573.31,
    "end": 573.469,
    "text": "Yeah!"
  },
  {
    "start": 574.17,
    "end": 578.969,
    "text": "It is still like even forty-thousand, quite a number considering the benefits you mentioned before."
  },
  {
    "start": 579.17,
    "end": 583.61,
    "text": "he don't need extra land... ...to certain degree also extra infrastructure."
  },
  {
    "start": 584.41,
    "end": 585.589,
    "text": "Tais, one final question."
  },
  {
    "start": 585.91,
    "end": 593.63,
    "text": "You already mentioned the municipalities for them is also good instruments while at the same time of course the municipalities and public authorities."
  },
  {
    "start": 593.75,
    "end": 600.79,
    "text": "these are ones who write the regulation be it about parking or some other coaches?"
  },
  {
    "start": 601.569,
    "end": 603.53,
    "text": "And I guess they have mixed feelings."
  },
  {
    "start": 603.589,
    "end": 605.349,
    "text": "then to balance multiple goals."
  },
  {
    "start": 605.689,
    "end": 612.89,
    "text": "so what are the instrument which municipalities support off top more ready?"
  },
  {
    "start": 613.969,
    "end": 614.05,
    "text": "So"
  },
  {
    "start": 614.99,
    "end": 620.29,
    "text": "that's what we call the rooftop extension paradox."
  },
  {
    "start": 622.37,
    "end": 631.31,
    "text": "To briefly explain, it is like the home owners or investors who own a building or housing corporations who own those buildings."
  },
  {
    "start": 632.729,
    "end": 638.849,
    "text": "they say yeah We want to do that rooftop extension but the monopendacy makes way too complex."
  },
  {
    "start": 640.51,
    "end": 645.61,
    "text": "the development costs are relative super high."
  },
  {
    "start": 645.67,
    "end": 655.87,
    "text": "Like to create ten new homes is on development upfront cost almost as much creating a hundred homes, for example."
  },
  {
    "start": 656.25,
    "end": 666.209,
    "text": "Well at the same time we discovered that the monopendacy says yeah We don't have make special legulations because nobody fells a permit For this."
  },
  {
    "start": 668.65,
    "end": 670.089,
    "text": "That's what we call the paradox right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 671.43,
    "end": 680.229,
    "text": "Two years ago we started to talk with the municipality in Amsterdam and said how can you break this paradox?"
  },
  {
    "start": 682.41,
    "end": 684.77,
    "text": "We came up with a plan together."
  },
  {
    "start": 687.41,
    "end": 694.63,
    "text": "What if we submit a virtual permit for thirty building blocks?"
  },
  {
    "start": 696.17,
    "end": 701.729,
    "text": "So we fixed the parking, we fix the ground lease because in Amsterdam you have a Ground Lease quote."
  },
  {
    "start": 702.29,
    "end": 705.089,
    "text": "You only get at end of whole process."
  },
  {
    "start": 705.65,
    "end": 709.63,
    "text": "so your business case is like one big black box."
  },
  {
    "start": 711.349,
    "end": 712.55,
    "text": "Also what kind of product?"
  },
  {
    "start": 712.81,
    "end": 728.469,
    "text": "What kind aesthetic materials can use and that way... We didn't do it on our own together with constructors, architects planning agencies, and the Munter-Benz scene."
  },
  {
    "start": 729.41,
    "end": 738.15,
    "text": "And a mayor was involved... ...and we laid out actually the blueprint for all these homeowners if they want to start."
  },
  {
    "start": 738.25,
    "end": 750.349,
    "text": "so only If They Want To Starts they know what way they need to walk.. ..and most of their risks can already migrate up front."
  },
  {
    "start": 753.53,
    "end": 757.61,
    "text": "So we relaunched that pilot a healthy year ago."
  },
  {
    "start": 758.43,
    "end": 769.93,
    "text": "And now, you see the first HOMOS association starting to fail like permits following exactly those... That framework recreated actually for them."
  },
  {
    "start": 770.55,
    "end": 772.469,
    "text": "so it seems quite successful."
  },
  {
    "start": 773.77,
    "end": 781.449,
    "text": "and at the same time We created together with government The National Rooftop Extension Program."
  },
  {
    "start": 782.01,
    "end": 790.93,
    "text": "So there's a national program, which actually says that monopolies need to have a plan like this in play."
  },
  {
    "start": 791.25,
    "end": 799.229,
    "text": "In the coming two years they need to facilitate home owners... ...to create their rooftop extensions."
  },
  {
    "start": 799.849,
    "end": 804.189,
    "text": "Well of course it is super complex and you get all the monopolies involved."
  },
  {
    "start": 804.449,
    "end": 806.709,
    "text": "But thats process we are right now actually."
  },
  {
    "start": 806.89,
    "end": 809.13,
    "text": "so Amsterdam is like flagship."
  },
  {
    "start": 809.589,
    "end": 810.17,
    "text": "They started."
  },
  {
    "start": 810.89,
    "end": 817.51,
    "text": "Well, at least the ten bigger cities around Amsterdam are following those plants as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 818.37,
    "end": 825.209,
    "text": "So that's super exciting to see that government is rather than reactive it very proactive."
  },
  {
    "start": 825.49,
    "end": 825.969,
    "text": "in this way."
  },
  {
    "start": 826.79,
    "end": 829.449,
    "text": "who help all these different kind of owners?"
  },
  {
    "start": 830.329,
    "end": 831.29,
    "text": "existing city."
  },
  {
    "start": 831.93,
    "end": 837.61,
    "text": "I mean i'm always amazed by Degree of innovation from the Dutch people."
  },
  {
    "start": 837.87,
    "end": 842.03,
    "text": "Yeah, and I mean a virtual permit as sounds super interesting."
  },
  {
    "start": 842.15,
    "end": 845.49,
    "text": "now i know why your company is called creative city solutions."
  },
  {
    "start": 846.189,
    "end": 847.13,
    "text": "it doesn't make sense right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 848.089,
    "end": 861.61,
    "text": "And uh...I mean this is promising outlook and.. ...i'm curious to see how many out these forty thousand flats will become reality in the next, I mean two years."
  },
  {
    "start": 862.05,
    "end": 865.53,
    "text": "there needs to be a plan and then it takes some more years."
  },
  {
    "start": 865.65,
    "end": 868.25,
    "text": "To make that development and so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 868.43,
    "end": 872.27,
    "text": "but i guess four or five years you probably know where we're standing?"
  },
  {
    "start": 872.31,
    "end": 872.709,
    "text": "Yeah actually"
  },
  {
    "start": 873.329,
    "end": 878.209,
    "text": "i think so too like in the Netherlands...I don't know how this is in Germany for example..but in the netherlands"
  },
  {
    "start": 878.569,
    "end": 878.99,
    "text": "slower."
  },
  {
    "start": 879.43,
    "end": 879.65,
    "text": "Effort"
  },
  {
    "start": 880.77,
    "end": 885.87,
    "text": "home take ten years to complete from first addition to construction."
  },
  {
    "start": 887.31,
    "end": 895.29,
    "text": "Well, the two projects I started with as our pilot project we created in four years from ambition to plan."
  },
  {
    "start": 896.189,
    "end": 898.969,
    "text": "And actually we see a lot of projects starting now."
  },
  {
    "start": 899.15,
    "end": 901.729,
    "text": "so i think that coming two years will be super exciting."
  },
  {
    "start": 902.51,
    "end": 904.27,
    "text": "um...to see where this will go."
  },
  {
    "start": 904.67,
    "end": 910.77,
    "text": "and if it is actually yeah If you are able to systemize it then just scale it up."
  },
  {
    "start": 912.589,
    "end": 912.75,
    "text": "Yeah"
  },
  {
    "start": 913.449,
    "end": 913.689,
    "text": "Cool"
  },
  {
    "start": 914.49,
    "end": 917.329,
    "text": "Now let's look into France, how they do it."
  },
  {
    "start": 917.53,
    "end": 922.79,
    "text": "Thais thanks for kicking off this episode in the series and super excited about your work!"
  },
  {
    "start": 922.969,
    "end": 923.11,
    "text": "Keep"
  },
  {
    "start": 923.15,
    "end": 923.25,
    "text": "going!"
  },
  {
    "start": 923.29,
    "end": 923.849,
    "text": "Thank you so much!"
  },
  {
    "start": 924.949,
    "end": 925.689,
    "text": "See ya!"
  },
  {
    "start": 930.79,
    "end": 931.51,
    "text": "Ciao!"
  },
  {
    "start": 938.25,
    "end": 955.329,
    "text": "Our second guest today is an architect and he's very familiar with rooftop extensions for many, many years already."
  },
  {
    "start": 956.03,
    "end": 960.81,
    "text": "He founded UpFactor nine years ago to facilitate this transformation."
  },
  {
    "start": 961.589,
    "end": 969.17,
    "text": "UpFacto joined Poloi Group a major French social housing company that manages more than one hundred fifty thousand homes."
  },
  {
    "start": 969.63,
    "end": 970.349,
    "text": "Welcome Didier!"
  },
  {
    "start": 971.25,
    "end": 971.41,
    "text": "Hello!"
  },
  {
    "start": 973.469,
    "end": 979.41,
    "text": "Love to hear your perspective from an owner and housing managing company."
  },
  {
    "start": 979.65,
    "end": 982.81,
    "text": "So what is the business case for rooftop extension?"
  },
  {
    "start": 983.41,
    "end": 985.17,
    "text": "Okay, thank you so much for having me!"
  },
  {
    "start": 985.81,
    "end": 994.11,
    "text": "It's a pleasure to be here and talk about topics that are absolutely critical of transition into sustainable cities."
  },
  {
    "start": 995.17,
    "end": 997.65,
    "text": "The core business cases very simple."
  },
  {
    "start": 998.87,
    "end": 1006.589,
    "text": "it's about creating real estate value out of thin hair without the cost of environmental impact by land."
  },
  {
    "start": 1007.87,
    "end": 1011.709,
    "text": "In traditional development, land is how high its costs?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1012.39,
    "end": 1015.41,
    "text": "With rooftop extension their land already exists."
  },
  {
    "start": 1015.969,
    "end": 1018.01,
    "text": "it's a roof for an existing building."
  },
  {
    "start": 1018.93,
    "end": 1025.13,
    "text": "so at Factor we look this through double dividend financial and environmental."
  },
  {
    "start": 1026.01,
    "end": 1035.07,
    "text": "By building upwards you create new square meters in prime identity location for the owner and you get high value real estate."
  },
  {
    "start": 1035.89,
    "end": 1043.79,
    "text": "For existing corona, the sale of roof rides can fully found energy retrofit from rest building."
  },
  {
    "start": 1044.51,
    "end": 1048.89,
    "text": "New construction financed ecological transition to old infrastructure."
  },
  {
    "start": 1049.83,
    "end": 1056.61,
    "text": "so it makes total sense in identity density and high value urban areas."
  },
  {
    "start": 1057.35,
    "end": 1065.91,
    "text": "If the market value per square meter is high, it's easily absorbed technical complexity of building on top of an occupied structure."
  },
  {
    "start": 1067.23,
    "end": 1072.83,
    "text": "It also makes sense when existing buildings need a roof repair or energy over or anywhere."
  },
  {
    "start": 1074.19,
    "end": 1077.49,
    "text": "So... When does this not make sense?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1078.03,
    "end": 1082.93,
    "text": "In low-density areas where land is cheap The economics just don't work."
  },
  {
    "start": 1082.97,
    "end": 1087.63,
    "text": "And if the existing buildings several structural degradation."
  },
  {
    "start": 1088.51,
    "end": 1100.35,
    "text": "Yeah, finally if local zoning law like the local urbanism in France are strictly prohibited so that I think it's a major picture of business case"
  },
  {
    "start": 1100.73,
    "end": 1100.95,
    "text": "Okay!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1101.21,
    "end": 1107.33,
    "text": "So sounds super interesting and also thanks for providing insights you described on high level."
  },
  {
    "start": 1107.49,
    "end": 1108.15,
    "text": "when makes sense?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1108.23,
    "end": 1114.15,
    "text": "And how do i specifically know from me?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1115.11,
    "end": 1119.75,
    "text": "It's part of, for me it is the first thing to scanning cities."
  },
  {
    "start": 1120.51,
    "end": 1124.71,
    "text": "And this exactly where I created a factor."
  },
  {
    "start": 1125.49,
    "end": 1132.35,
    "text": "Early on we realized that the biggest bottleneck to scaling roof stock extensions was data doing feasibility studies."
  },
  {
    "start": 1132.71,
    "end": 1136.53,
    "text": "building by building manually takes months and costs fortune."
  },
  {
    "start": 1137.43,
    "end": 1143.91,
    "text": "so We developed property treaty algorithm tool called Factor Geo Services."
  },
  {
    "start": 1144.85,
    "end": 1156.49,
    "text": "It's a treaty tool and how algorithms scan entire city, simultaneously using open data, treaty model buildings ,and local zoning regulation."
  },
  {
    "start": 1157.71,
    "end": 1159.73,
    "text": "We analyze two main layers."
  },
  {
    "start": 1160.59,
    "end": 1167.23,
    "text": "First the urban legal layer that does the local zoning low in increase in height."
  },
  {
    "start": 1168.19,
    "end": 1170.29,
    "text": "The second is the geometric layer."
  },
  {
    "start": 1171.11,
    "end": 1173.41,
    "text": "What Is the actual shape of the footprint?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1175.09,
    "end": 1184.19,
    "text": "So by cross referencing this layer, we can instantly tell a city or portfolio owner exactly which building has high potential."
  },
  {
    "start": 1185.27,
    "end": 1190.15,
    "text": "We turn the blind spot into a cantifey, actionable acid class."
  },
  {
    "start": 1190.85,
    "end": 1195.71,
    "text": "The most common challenge is to... ...is the unknown story of old buildings."
  },
  {
    "start": 1196.37,
    "end": 1205.13,
    "text": "A building constructed in Paris or Lyon In nineteen and ninety does not come with its original blueprint, you know."
  },
  {
    "start": 1205.77,
    "end": 1211.55,
    "text": "And our digital scan gave us an incredibly precise statistical probability."
  },
  {
    "start": 1212.39,
    "end": 1222.21,
    "text": "once the project is flagged as a highly viable by our software we then step in with targeted physical audits so it's easier."
  },
  {
    "start": 1222.39,
    "end": 1233.43,
    "text": "The goal of our data platform is to ensure You only spend money on physical engineering for buildings that already have ninety-five percent of chance of success."
  },
  {
    "start": 1234.45,
    "end": 1239.63,
    "text": "So, I think the game changer with this application..."
  },
  {
    "start": 1240.11,
    "end": 1240.87,
    "text": "Okay wonderful!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1241.41,
    "end": 1250.65,
    "text": "And when you say success it's basically a commercial opportunity which is like creating an additional space to generate rent?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1251.65,
    "end": 1260.77,
    "text": "It's an opportunity with some risk, and I think for us the opportunities are diversifying rapidly."
  },
  {
    "start": 1261.81,
    "end": 1276.65,
    "text": "For sure residential is still the largest market because a penthouse apartment comes under premium price per square meter which drives strong in strong margin especially for social and intermediate housing type markets."
  },
  {
    "start": 1277.65,
    "end": 1289.75,
    "text": "however we see a massive strategic opportunity today a public building sector too, like schools you know gymnasiums and administrative buildings."
  },
  {
    "start": 1290.93,
    "end": 1295.57,
    "text": "Private owners are often afraid of making different use in one building."
  },
  {
    "start": 1296.05,
    "end": 1299.29,
    "text": "but public actors actually need to create this mix."
  },
  {
    "start": 1300.05,
    "end": 1304.67,
    "text": "it's no longer makes sense today to design the public facility for single-use."
  },
  {
    "start": 1305.53,
    "end": 1308.75,
    "text": "A rooftop extension allows local authority."
  },
  {
    "start": 1312.59,
    "end": 1315.45,
    "text": "Community spaces are social housing, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1315.61,
    "end": 1318.39,
    "text": "Where the needs are close to the citizens."
  },
  {
    "start": 1319.55,
    "end": 1328.11,
    "text": "The public sector must lead by example maximizing every vertical square meter to create multi-activity hubs."
  },
  {
    "start": 1329.45,
    "end": 1332.29,
    "text": "so it's a good idea."
  },
  {
    "start": 1332.37,
    "end": 1350.31,
    "text": "but the risk profile is very different from Grunfeld development you know and your main cost drivers or your structural reinforcement hoisting materials into denser environments and managing logistics without interrupting the lives of their building below."
  },
  {
    "start": 1351.01,
    "end": 1354.27,
    "text": "But honestly, as a single twisted risk."
  },
  {
    "start": 1354.53,
    "end": 1360.69,
    "text": "it's not technical yeah... It is social and stakeholder resistance."
  },
  {
    "start": 1361.47,
    "end": 1363.83,
    "text": "Tell me more about this stakeholder resistance."
  },
  {
    "start": 1364.21,
    "end": 1364.97,
    "text": "Yeah why"
  },
  {
    "start": 1365.13,
    "end": 1368.55,
    "text": "do people resist these kind of building developments?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1369.81,
    "end": 1381.97,
    "text": "If you want to build on top for an occupied building The initial reaction of the resident is often noise, dust, scaffolding and you're making money on your head."
  },
  {
    "start": 1382.33,
    "end": 1383.05,
    "text": "No thanks!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1383.75,
    "end": 1387.69,
    "text": "It's the absolute K-to-medication is a stable sharing value."
  },
  {
    "start": 1388.69,
    "end": 1394.23,
    "text": "You cannot treat this as traditional tap down development At a factor."
  },
  {
    "start": 1394.57,
    "end": 1404.21,
    "text": "we facilitated collaborative model where the financial value and social utility generated by the extension are split transparently."
  },
  {
    "start": 1405.27,
    "end": 1417.23,
    "text": "So in the private sector, the developer buys a roof rise In this capital directly pay for the modernization of building like an elevator or energy oscillation."
  },
  {
    "start": 1418.01,
    "end": 1427.51,
    "text": "It's quite simple And in public sector The financial gain helps found global thermal renovation or the city hall underneath."
  },
  {
    "start": 1428.47,
    "end": 1442.95,
    "text": "So suddenly, the users and citizens realize that accepting a few months of lightweight construction means their building equipment... Their public equipment is modernized."
  },
  {
    "start": 1442.99,
    "end": 1449.75,
    "text": "so City Energy bills are redropped And new local services are cleared with zero extra taxes."
  },
  {
    "start": 1451.05,
    "end": 1457.35,
    "text": "When you transform your project into direct benefits for the community Resistance smells away."
  },
  {
    "start": 1457.47,
    "end": 1464.19,
    "text": "So it's not a magical tool, but It is quite possible."
  },
  {
    "start": 1464.77,
    "end": 1482.91,
    "text": "and that sounds like talking to people talking just stakeholders listening to their needs analyzing the situation And then matching let say the benefits of the rooftop extension and the financial benefits in how this can subsidize To solve problems the current tenants already experience."
  },
  {
    "start": 1483.89,
    "end": 1491.09,
    "text": "when we talked about main cost drivers and risks, you also mentioned other factors especially logistics."
  },
  {
    "start": 1491.21,
    "end": 1493.77,
    "text": "And also like the statics of the building."
  },
  {
    "start": 1493.93,
    "end": 1495.83,
    "text": "so how to mitigate those?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1496.49,
    "end": 1502.23,
    "text": "You absolutely cannot use traditional constriction methods in rooftop extensions."
  },
  {
    "start": 1502.91,
    "end": 1515.47,
    "text": "if we try to build a traditional concrete and brick structure on roof The weight will require massive structural reinforcement all the way down to foundation which rinse your business case."
  },
  {
    "start": 1516.29,
    "end": 1528.41,
    "text": "So this is where secular economy principle, specifically off-site prefabrication modularity"
  },
  {
    "start": 1529.25,
    "end": 1529.57,
    "text": "and"
  },
  {
    "start": 1529.89,
    "end": 1540.47,
    "text": "biosef materials completely unlock the business model at a factor which strongly advocated for timber frame modular system."
  },
  {
    "start": 1541.27,
    "end": 1549.69,
    "text": "wood is lightweight about five time lighter than concrete, which means you rarely need heavy structural reinforcement."
  },
  {
    "start": 1550.73,
    "end": 1558.23,
    "text": "So because it's modular the extension is engineered and built in a factory off-site."
  },
  {
    "start": 1559.11,
    "end": 1575.85,
    "text": "so the model arrives on site fully finished with windows in solution prinstail for example ,and a crane lifts them into the roof and the structural share can be a matter of day rather than month."
  },
  {
    "start": 1576.85,
    "end": 1588.93,
    "text": "So this radically lower onsite labor cost registers urban disruption, so enslaved to project timelines... it's great benefit for people!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1589.99,
    "end": 1594.27,
    "text": "And that is second layer of secretary designing for construction."
  },
  {
    "start": 1596.57,
    "end": 1599.07,
    "text": "Yeah, the materials return their purity."
  },
  {
    "start": 1599.33,
    "end": 1606.89,
    "text": "The wood, metal connectors and insulation are not fused into a monolithic mass of congruent rubble."
  },
  {
    "start": 1607.83,
    "end": 1614.51,
    "text": "So this means that the building extension itself holds high residual material value for future."
  },
  {
    "start": 1615.47,
    "end": 1619.33,
    "text": "We're tracking these materials more than fifty or sixty years from now."
  },
  {
    "start": 1619.95,
    "end": 1626.61,
    "text": "This model can be adapted, transformed and cleanly disassembled as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 1627.11,
    "end": 1629.15,
    "text": "I think it's a complete shift."
  },
  {
    "start": 1629.53,
    "end": 1635.63,
    "text": "when longer consume building material we store then temporary in our urban fabric."
  },
  {
    "start": 1638.27,
    "end": 1638.51,
    "text": "Did you?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1638.61,
    "end": 1652.21,
    "text": "my last question is about scaling this because right now, We're talking and times where like here in Germany A couple of days ago the temperature went beyond forty degrees And next day so get close to that one again."
  },
  {
    "start": 1652.63,
    "end": 1660.23,
    "text": "And you mentioned at the beginning one of the main benefits is to use, let's say profits for mutual extension."
  },
  {
    "start": 1660.37,
    "end": 1663.17,
    "text": "For the energetic renovation after building."
  },
  {
    "start": 1663.31,
    "end": 1665.73,
    "text": "so we need to scale that money."
  },
  {
    "start": 1666.51,
    "end": 1668.43,
    "text": "So what needs to happen?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1668.67,
    "end": 1669.41,
    "text": "To scale this?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1671.49,
    "end": 1672.33,
    "text": "difficult questions."
  },
  {
    "start": 1673.81,
    "end": 1687.95,
    "text": "I think physical and digital infrastructure really The real bottlenecks holding us back right now is a problem of collective wear, a rigid mindset and lack of caliphant actors."
  },
  {
    "start": 1688.55,
    "end": 1704.41,
    "text": "The main issue is that there are almost no operators and especially not traditional developers capable to work in an occupied building on small-scale assets combining AV renovation with innovative construction."
  },
  {
    "start": 1705.57,
    "end": 1714.15,
    "text": "For decades the industry has been programmed for easy volume flatten poor concrete."
  },
  {
    "start": 1714.87,
    "end": 1721.89,
    "text": "Today with a very difficult economic context for developers, we could hope they would change their model."
  },
  {
    "start": 1722.33,
    "end": 1728.69,
    "text": "but the reality is that they are afraid of the technical and human complexity of rooftop extension."
  },
  {
    "start": 1729.73,
    "end": 1734.75,
    "text": "They will not choose complexity by themselves unless market forces them to."
  },
  {
    "start": 1736.17,
    "end": 1741.61,
    "text": "So let's be realistic, rooftop extensions won't solve the housing crisis alone."
  },
  {
    "start": 1742.25,
    "end": 1743.59,
    "text": "It's not a magic bullet."
  },
  {
    "start": 1744.35,
    "end": 1748.63,
    "text": "By stating what we already have, must be our top priority."
  },
  {
    "start": 1750.59,
    "end": 1758.29,
    "text": "We live in the world of limited resources and rising carbon emissions... ...we cannot afford to build like we used too."
  },
  {
    "start": 1759.03,
    "end": 1763.89,
    "text": "In fact rooftop extension is probably The lowest carbon development possible."
  },
  {
    "start": 1764.69,
    "end": 1764.85,
    "text": "Why?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1765.61,
    "end": 1769.23,
    "text": "Because it automatically includes proximity to urban center."
  },
  {
    "start": 1770.09,
    "end": 1776.45,
    "text": "The residents are already connected to existing public transport, job activities and laser."
  },
  {
    "start": 1777.45,
    "end": 1783.27,
    "text": "So we don't need to build new roads, new infrastructure or new utilities."
  },
  {
    "start": 1783.89,
    "end": 1791.95,
    "text": "We use the existing city And this is exactly where the role of local elected officials and cities essential."
  },
  {
    "start": 1792.97,
    "end": 1801.83,
    "text": "If mayor & urban planners stop Yoban's poll and only allow the transformation Developer will not have choice."
  },
  {
    "start": 1802.75,
    "end": 1812.71,
    "text": "If rooftop extension becomes the primary legal and viable opportunity to build, The market would adapt naturally And it'll become a standard for everyone."
  },
  {
    "start": 1813.81,
    "end": 1828.55,
    "text": "So... To accelerate this moment We need three things First A strong political will From local leader To direct building rights Only upward on existing structures."
  },
  {
    "start": 1830.11,
    "end": 1834.01,
    "text": "regulatory agility to process this complex permits."
  },
  {
    "start": 1834.79,
    "end": 1834.95,
    "text": "It's"
  },
  {
    "start": 1835.05,
    "end": 1835.89,
    "text": "the main thing I think."
  },
  {
    "start": 1836.33,
    "end": 1854.77,
    "text": "and third that we do every day at a factor, um... A change of perspective among large property owners so they see their roof not as a leaking liability but has valuable assets to fund their own ecological transition."
  },
  {
    "start": 1855.83,
    "end": 1861.37,
    "text": "sometimes say CHI is not the limit, you know and it's the opportunity."
  },
  {
    "start": 1862.15,
    "end": 1866.31,
    "text": "We have millions of square meters of unbuilt space right above our heads."
  },
  {
    "start": 1866.41,
    "end": 1871.63,
    "text": "so scaling is no longer an engineering challenge!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1872.35,
    "end": 1882.33,
    "text": "It's a political choice and necessary economic pivot for our industry to learn how to repair and build the city on top."
  },
  {
    "start": 1887.17,
    "end": 1893.61,
    "text": "Didier, thanks for painting this picture of the future and naming the barriers we need to overcome."
  },
  {
    "start": 1894.57,
    "end": 1896.93,
    "text": "I can't wait to see this in reality!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1898.29,
    "end": 1899.49,
    "text": "Thank you so much for having me."
  },
  {
    "start": 1899.57,
    "end": 1901.57,
    "text": "it was a wonderful conversation sir."
  },
  {
    "start": 1901.81,
    "end": 1902.29,
    "text": "Thanks a lot."
  },
  {
    "start": 1905.91,
    "end": 1909.73,
    "text": "That was our first episode of our series Rooftop Extensions."
  },
  {
    "start": 1910.31,
    "end": 1915.67,
    "text": "Thanks to Thais Müller & Didier Minéry For opening up The Case for Building on Top."
  },
  {
    "start": 1916.59,
    "end": 1921.27,
    "text": "In the next episode, we come down from the city map to a single courtyard in Dresden."
  },
  {
    "start": 1921.99,
    "end": 1928.21,
    "text": "Duke Hanks added a floor-to-a two story building while his family kept living it – leaving."
  },
  {
    "start": 1928.33,
    "end": 1932.23,
    "text": "Fricke explains the block system behind it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1933.19,
    "end": 1942.49,
    "text": "Until then keep pushing for profitable circular economy and please don't forget your most abundant renewable resource is your imagination!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1952.01,
    "end": 1960.85,
    "text": "And this is Circularity FM, the podcast about understanding building and managing circular business models."
  }
]