[
  {
    "start": 3.0,
    "text": "Kilian Eckle: It's all about data at the end, you know. Ask a software developer about BIM, and he will say, \"How stupid can human beings be?\" And it's not about stupidity, it's just about not understanding data.",
    "end": 13.0
  },
  {
    "start": 13.0,
    "text": "Jingle: My name is Patrick Hypscher, and this is circularity.fm, the podcast about understanding, building, and managing circular business models.",
    "end": 38.0
  },
  {
    "start": 38.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: This is the third and final episode of Rooftop Extension. Last week, Dirk Hengst and Lewin Fricke showed us one roof in Dresden. One family, one floor, and one very tight courtyard. Today, the question is what happens when you stop treating each roof as a one-off? Serial construction, standardized components, and the data to find the right buildings in the first place. Today's first guest has a background in management and economics and founded multiple companies. He is in the construction space for almost a decade and also serves as a member of the board of the Federal Association of Digital Construction. Almost five years ago, he founded RoofUz, a platform for serial roof extensions. Welcome, Kilian.",
    "end": 88.0
  },
  {
    "start": 88.0,
    "text": "Kilian Eckle: Thanks for the invitation.",
    "end": 89.0
  },
  {
    "start": 89.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Kilian, you inspired me for this series. Before we jump into the details, why did you start a business in that field?",
    "end": 98.0
  },
  {
    "start": 98.0,
    "text": "Kilian Eckle: Probably I'm a bit too naive. I think there are three reasons. Um, first of all, I live in Berlin, and I'm a bicycler, and I can see Berlin from all angles, and I was like, \"Okay, we have a housing crisis, but did you look at the roofs? Why didn't anybody try to actually renovate that?\" And that's how we jumped deeper into the topic. That's, I would say, the first reason. The second reason is I come from digital construction environment, and I would say we have been developing digital tools for the last decade. That's how I entered the industry. To be honest with you, what are the next levels? You know, there's always the kind of excuses, \"Hey, another island solution in whatever.\" So my next point was, okay, then let's create digital process chain which covers a full value chain, which then I thought, okay, that might fit together. And also, I think most topics are covered in business models, and actually, um, kind of try to convert a business with a business model solution and process chains. This was a little bit my approach. Last but not least, I love rooftop apartments, and especially when they're made of, out of ecological material. It's wonderful. I have been inside some, and it's just amazing. So if I could also get one, you know, I would survive it.",
    "end": 183.0
  },
  {
    "start": 183.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Definitely. Yeah. So let's make sure you get one at some point. The construction industry is not known for speed and agility and partly also innovation, and you just published a study about the motivation of housing companies, uh, to add another floor on top of buildings. And many see this huge potential, as you also observed while cycling through the city, but there are many challenges and I guess you agree it's just too slow, and we want to speed it up. So what are the barriers here?",
    "end": 217.0
  },
  {
    "start": 217.0,
    "text": "Kilian Eckle: Okay. There are so many barriers that I would focus on the top three, I would say. Yeah.",
    "end": 221.0
  },
  {
    "start": 221.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Okay.",
    "end": 222.0
  },
  {
    "start": 222.0,
    "text": "Kilian Eckle: I mean, since Ukraine crisis and COVID crisis, the construction costs increased a lot. This affected also the rooftop extension industry, which is a very small industry. So I would say, first of all, the point is, how can you actually find the needle in the haystack, you know? Find the right feasible projects you could start with, because that's one, one huge topic. It's all about money at the end, so you need to be smart in finding that. Then there is, of course, the, the tender process, the building permit topic. And the topics at the end are you need to find the right planners. You need to find the right construction professionals who will build it, but they live in different, or, let's say, old-school processes, and are not digitalized together. So, and this makes it very complex to bring them together and to improve efficiency, and that's kind of the, the whole field where I try, where we try to act and bring more structure in it.",
    "end": 288.0
  },
  {
    "start": 288.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: So basically identifying the project with the most potential, getting permission to proce- proceed, and then finding the right partners to execute on it. And all this, all this probably in a more or less fragmented, uh, market where every house is different and every project somehow is different.",
    "end": 307.0
  },
  {
    "start": 307.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Yeah.",
    "end": 307.0
  },
  {
    "start": 307.0,
    "text": "Kilian Eckle: Is definitely how the industry sees it and, and then there comes the tender process, no? And then you might lose the connection to the quality because you always look for the cheapest price. That's maybe also a problem. Yeah, exactly.",
    "end": 319.0
  },
  {
    "start": 319.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. So, we don't wanna stop there. How, how can these barriers be overcome?",
    "end": 326.0
  },
  {
    "start": 326.0,
    "text": "Kilian Eckle: So, first of all, before we started, how to find the right projects, that's today possible. It's digitally possible. So you, you can get, I think, whole Europe based on digital twins, and with such information you can already start to filter out or cluster certain buildings and kind of make a feasible project or make a feasible analysis about it. So that helps you to focus on a few objects which might make sense, and then you can start a process. What we are doing is we look a little bit deeper into the process, of course, which helps you to deeper into what can a building really bear. So it's, of course, the static situation is important. There are certain other engineer task which need to fulfilled in order to find out if the building is actually technically able to bear the new apartment. So that's very important. There is so far not such a company yet which focuses on such a process. And from our perspective, that's... we are in a new project with some colleagues, and these colleagues develop a process for a zero retrofit, and they bring together their expertise with the housing companies and the project until the tender process, and they matchmake even with the supply side. So, and that's actually very interesting, and we believe it's very important to become or to develop a similar process for the rooftop apartment process. So that's then a good way how we can actually steer a little bit the process of standardization, because that's the next step. The next step is the BIM methodology. BIM at the end is a methodology, not only a software, and that's important because...",
    "end": 440.0
  },
  {
    "start": 440.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Uh, sorry to interrupt, Kilian. What does BIM stand for?",
    "end": 442.0
  },
  {
    "start": 442.0,
    "text": "Kilian Eckle: So, BIM, Building Information Modeling, is a collaborative methodology for designing, constructing, and managing buildings. So that's very important to understand because it's not only about the construction process, it's the idea is also about later on managing the buildings in the right way. So we have got a lot of software tools, which are BIM ready, and what is interesting about it is that in BIM, you try to always reduce complexity, which means you can create a catalog for the products, and you can create a standardization of how buildings should look like. In our example, of course, it's rooftop apartments. And with such a catalog and with improved standardization processes, I give you an example, yeah, when you build a bigger rooftop apartment, it's good to put everything which is around kitchen and bathrooms, so, wet cells, I would directly transfer, translate it, are connected and close together because here you can save a lot of material. Later on, you have less problems about water leakage and so on. So, here you can actually improve processes around that, and then you can create an improved hardware-based rooftop apartment approach. And this you combine then with the layer of digitalization because that is actually very interesting. So, start with the process from Timo von Utrecht, which is kind of using digital twins in a very simple model and then start to enrich such digital twins with more information. You can then use automatation in the planning process. You can simplify the planning process. You can kind of drag the construction or the building catalog into the planning process and then use this information, and that's also very important when you have finished working on a digital twin with all your colleagues because the architect works together with the different planners, the planning here...",
    "end": 568.0
  },
  {
    "start": 568.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Right.",
    "end": 569.0
  },
  {
    "start": 569.0,
    "text": "Kilian Eckle: Quite complex because you have to fulfill a certain, certain criterias, especially when you build higher, have the fire protection rules, and you know all the rules, and you have the right information of the hardware here in our sense, it's the timber frame elements, you can actually be very fast in collecting the data and improving the planning process by probably 50% of time, and then use the information to give it to the construction company or to the production company. Because the production company usually doesn't use the same model. They usually look at it and copy it again. So, and that's a little bit, and that's... You're laughing, but that's actually the normality of the whole situation, you know. Like, even architects and planners often don't work together on the same digital twin. So we have... There are already tools available which kind of brings them together, that they all kind of create the same information models, but that's not a standard today. And, and that's actually more possible a product frame we are developing.",
    "end": 639.0
  },
  {
    "start": 639.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Okay. So the product frame you're developing, um, how does it look like?",
    "end": 646.0
  },
  {
    "start": 646.0,
    "text": "Kilian Eckle: At the end, it's a little bit like a Lego building box for rooftop apartments. It's... We are focusing mainly on timber frame material because then you can kind of connect it to the building. So modules is usually difficult. Modules, you need at least two thousand square meters of, of potential new rooftop apartments that, to make it feasible. So you have always this kind of question, \"Hey, what material could be feasible, which are not?\" In a timber frame material or with the timber frame elements, you can actually, I would say, build rooftop apartments around one thousand square meter where it makes sense, the cost and value creation balance. That, that's important to achieve because, and that's also interesting to understand is, if rooftop extension, extensions are too small, they are not feasible, they're too costly, and that's the next problem you are facing. So our approach is we start with bigger projects. Bigger project means not only one house. You can take similar houses of the same building type and then kind of bundle them together. You should be in a closed environment, so maybe one city, and then you can say, \"Hey, we take five buildings which are almost the same, bring it together.\" You have maybe two and a half thousand square meters of potential rooftop extension, and that's a very interesting project where you can then get the bigger or more professional construction companies and planners on board, digitalize with them the process to then start when you, when the whole layer or part of the layer is established. We are working on that actually. Then you can become smaller, but less costly. That's the way how to steer through it because the, the biggest amount of projects is not huge. That's the challenge we are in. I can quote a politician from the Greens here in Berlin center, and they found out that ideally, or it is actually possible, not, of course, due to the building permits of today, but there is space for fifty thousand rooftop apartments only in Berlin city center, so Berlin Mitte. Yeah, but I would...",
    "end": 789.0
  },
  {
    "start": 789.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Wow.",
    "end": 789.0
  },
  {
    "start": 789.0,
    "text": "Kilian Eckle: Now it gets...",
    "end": 790.0
  },
  {
    "start": 790.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: That...",
    "end": 790.0
  },
  {
    "start": 790.0,
    "text": "Kilian Eckle: Complicated because, uh, not all of them are big, and then it's, uh, very expensive. So we should think...",
    "end": 795.0
  },
  {
    "start": 795.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Yeah.",
    "end": 796.0
  },
  {
    "start": 796.0,
    "text": "Kilian Eckle: Overcome that.",
    "end": 797.0
  },
  {
    "start": 797.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Yeah. So I get, like, after listening to, uh, to Didier, um, to Thijs, um, in the first episode, and then having this example from TRIQBRIQ in Dresden, and now listening to you, it's really a matter of getting standardization into a market that is super highly individualized, fragmented, uh, where it's really hard to get one building that has the similar...",
    "end": 824.0
  },
  {
    "start": 824.0,
    "text": "Kilian Eckle: Yes.",
    "end": 824.0
  },
  {
    "start": 824.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Conditions, and it's all about finding that way through to make it standardized so you can achieve economic, let's say, a profitable outcome, so to say. And basically what you're then doing is trying to add another layer on the construction site to find the right level of modularity and standardization that fits the rooftop...",
    "end": 851.0
  },
  {
    "start": 851.0,
    "text": "Kilian Eckle: Right.",
    "end": 852.0
  },
  {
    "start": 852.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Right? Okay, and at the same time, how does it work with this very decentralized industry? So when once you have... I feel like there are many players out there, uh, with modular solutions and you find one in, in the Munich area, you find a couple of in the Netherlands, in Denmark. So everywhere there are, again, different standards for modularity and standardization. So, so, of course, together we make a step ahead. Is it just wishful thinking, and maybe I'm wrong, that we try to achieve a higher standardization, or would you say it's needed?",
    "end": 891.0
  },
  {
    "start": 891.0,
    "text": "Kilian Eckle: I think the standardization with DIN and so on made it also a little bit complex that we have certain rules and requirements fulfilled in a way that made it very expensive to build. We have a classical way how to build, and that's usually quite expensive. We don't have, uh, digital process chains. Uh, we have, uh, the, the digital everywhere, and it's hard to overcome that, you know? And therefore, I think when we would solve that already and, uh, th- then the rest is okay to be solved.",
    "end": 927.0
  },
  {
    "start": 927.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Yeah. Okay, gotcha. In many cases, the ultimate barrier is human change. Um, so you talk about the planners, the architects, the, the construction companies involved, the people at the construction site. So when we talk about a digital process chain, we need to bring people along to use it and adopt it, maybe even love it at some point. I mean, you have so much experience and work with different projects, so, can you give us an example maybe where it works and w- what, what does it take to invite people to adopt to a more standardized and digital way of working?",
    "end": 969.0
  },
  {
    "start": 969.0,
    "text": "Kilian Eckle: So we are in an EU project called LIFE Reno Tides. It's actually a consortium of different companies which are in this, we call it in Germany, serielle Renovierung, a serial retrofit business, you know. Like, it's that y- you wrap buildings into also frames, huge frames. Ecoworks is a very popular company in this field. And is this industry is growing rapidly, mainly due to the fact that everybody knows we're gonna have a problem with Fachkräfte, with the kind of lack of skilled labor ship, you know. So... And that's the reason why there is a new industry coming up, and all the... Some politicians know this. Governments understood this. And here it is possible actually to improve the digital process chains because it's such a young industry that here the digitalization plays a major role, actually very interesting. To be honest with you, when you look deeper into that, you can also see when an industry believes it should be like that, that there are happening mystics in a way that... You know, it's, it's all about data at the end, you know. And, and, and I have a lot of friends which are software developers. Ask dev... a software developer about BIM, and he will say, \"How stupid can human beings be?\" You know, like, and that's a little bit... It's not about stupidity, it's just about not understanding data. And also in a serial retrofit business, sometimes they, they generate data in a step where it's not needed. It's much later needed and stuff like that. Even there, it's not so easy. But you can see how an industry could actually use digitization in this, in this environment.",
    "end": 1077.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1077.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Okay. Yeah, cool. Kilian, to wrap it up, we learned also in the previous episodes, and you said it your- yourself, there's quite some commercial potential in rooftop extensions. And you gave some indication where it makes sense, where it doesn't. Um, just to bring it back to a very specific case, who are the housing corporations or the, the owners who should right now, as we're talking 2026, look into it despite the barriers, uh, and maybe because of the solutions that are starting to be available and to be developed? So who is right now the one to look into that?",
    "end": 1117.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1117.0,
    "text": "Kilian Eckle: We have in Germany a few areas where we have a housing crisis, and it's cities like Berlin, Hamburg, I would say, North Rhine-Westphalia, Cologne, Düsseldorf, Munich area, Leipzig area. So, so these areas, I think you can't do much wrong as a... When you own a building, it should be maybe in a certain area where you know it's well connected and so on. So that's what we are doing right now. We are doing such a feasibility check for buildings. And when you have such a building, you will find a business model that it's feasible to top it up. There are business models at the moment available like student living, for example. So you can create, um, buildings in these areas where you kind of be lucrative after twenty-five to thirty years easily. You have... Ideally, the building is very simple. You have a few of them, or you know another housing company or which also owns similar buildings, and you connect it, because when you have, like, four or five such buildings, you can easily get a very good cost ratio, and then you can do the job, learn a lot, help the industry to learn a lot, ideally involve us, because then we can digitize it and help the industry to improve the process and repeat it. It's all about repetition.",
    "end": 1201.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1201.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Nice. Wonderful, uh, Kilian. I w- uh, w- wish you more time cycling through Berlin and the other cities and seeing new rooftop extensions.",
    "end": 1212.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1212.0,
    "text": "Kilian Eckle: Exactly. So thanks for the invitation and bringing up this topic of rooftop extension into your podcast.",
    "end": 1220.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1220.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Yeah, it was fun.",
    "end": 1221.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1221.0,
    "text": "Kilian Eckle: Same.",
    "end": 1221.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1221.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: You, Kilian.",
    "end": 1222.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1222.0,
    "text": "Kilian Eckle: Patrick, have a lovely day.",
    "end": 1227.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1227.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Our next guest studied built environment and next level engineering and is a researcher at the University of Applied Sciences in Utrecht. Hey, Timo.",
    "end": 1236.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1236.0,
    "text": "Timo Walraven: Hi.",
    "end": 1237.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1237.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Timo, we already heard from Kilian that there are quite some challenges but also opportunities when it comes to digital instruments. Um, what is that you are doing?",
    "end": 1247.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1247.0,
    "text": "Timo Walraven: Yeah. So I'm a researcher at the University of Applied Sciences Utrecht. I'm currently working on a national program to help get a grip on the potential of adding new houses into the existing building stock because we have a very large demand for new housing. But we also don't want to build beyond current city borders. So we want to invest in, okay, how can we assess the potential of the existing building stock? And we do that with all the open-source data we have right now.",
    "end": 1277.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1277.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: So all the open-source data, that sounds quite a lot. What data sources do you actually need or use?",
    "end": 1284.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1284.0,
    "text": "Timo Walraven: Yeah. So in the Netherlands we have a lot of public data. For instance, we have the Kadaster, which is publishing data from energy to housing information to parcel information. But we also have, like, a research group from the TU Delft, which makes LOD2 models from nationwide acquired point cloud data, and we also have nationwide aerial imagery. For my background, I, yeah, I specialized in GIS and I always wondered, okay, what data do we have available? And now we're making a model to assess the potential for adding new houses in the, in existing building stock, by collecting that data and doing aggregation, but also making machine learning models to say something about that potential to add new, new buildings. For instance, you have the rooftop extensions, which is one type or one way to add new buildings to the housing stock where you can say, okay, maybe the roof type, you know, we get that from the LOD2-2 models. Maybe the energy level is important. Maybe the existing infrastructure on top of the roof, you know, do you have a lot- lot of HVAC or do you have existing solar panels? They all contribute to the potential of, okay, is this building suitable to add new houses?",
    "end": 1358.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1358.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: And what you're actually trying to achieve is to give an indication of the readiness, or, as you said, how suitable is a certain house for a rooftop extension, right?",
    "end": 1368.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1368.0,
    "text": "Timo Walraven: So we're working in a national program for the national government where we contribute or collaborate with a lot of different municipalities. Currently, I think twenty-four, but we're trying to expand more and more. And our way of collecting the data and calculating all the different parameters that go into the model is uniform across the country and all the datasets we use as well, so we can easily scale up to apply our process to, to other municipalities. And basically, the, the end goal is to give them grip on their potential for their district or their municipality boundary, the, the cities that fall within the municipality. And we do data analysis for all types of, yeah, adding new houses, so, you have the rooftop extensions, but you can also imagine that there is a lot of green space within the ci- city that maybe has no value today, but can have value by facilitating new houses or adding buildings between each other. So sometimes there's, like, a, a gap which can be filled. Those types of, yeah, analysis or those types of results we want to give to the municipality to give them a better overview, okay, what can be achieved within your district over the coming five to 10 years? And they can make, like, housing programs for it or say like, \"Okay, well, we wanted to invest in this neighborhood, and we can combine it with adding new houses.\" For instance, in the city where I live, in Utrecht, there is a neighborhood called Overvecht where a lot of the buildings don't have houses on the first level or on the ground floor. And we wanted to see, okay, can we add houses to the ground floor to give a better perspective of the neighborhood for the ground floor re- residents, you know, to give eyes on the street which can contribute to the general safety feeling of the, the residents, which is sometimes a problem in this neighborhood?",
    "end": 1474.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1474.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Okay. And since the, these results are mostly for municipalities and, uh, official bodies, uh, can you describe a bit more how the results look like? Do, do I get basically a table with certain indicators and probabilities, or, I mean, it, it feels like you're, on the one hand, you're talking about aggregation and neighborhoods and certain areas, but at the same time, I also get you that you provide specific results for buildings. So how does it look like?",
    "end": 1503.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1503.0,
    "text": "Timo Walraven: Yeah, so it's basically a table but with geospatial information added to it. So, i- it's good that you mention it because if you work with GIS data, then it's like a common language. But I think for most people it isn't. So we always try to work with maps and visualize all the results spatially. And how a spatial or a GIS, a geographic information system, works is that it's basically an, a table as we know it, like from an Excel table but added with a spatial column, so we can do spatial analysis, so we can see, okay, what types of buildings are in which area, what's the potential for each building? So we can, yeah, for a municipality it could be interesting to see, okay, if we do the potential analysis, can we see certain areas of the city light up for certain types of densification of the, the city?",
    "end": 1545.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1545.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: And then let's look at the benefits. Uh, once again, you already mentioned a few. So first, for the municipalities, I guess they are foremost interested in a certain neighborhood, uh, and, and the aggregation. And but how do they then provide, let's say, incentives for owners to use this potential of specific houses?",
    "end": 1571.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1571.0,
    "text": "Timo Walraven: At the end, that's the responsibility of the municipality themselves. We're, yeah, trying to facilitate that conversation. So our data tool was basically trying to facilitate the conversation between different disciplines within the municipality. For instance, to make or to talk about the difference between, okay, how do we assess parking compared to adding new houses? Because often a problem with adding new houses is, okay, can we also add new parking spaces because we have a parking regulation? But that parking regulation, or that parking norm, was set in the '70s and maybe isn't as applicable today as it was then. So we try to facilitate that conversation, and what a municipality can do with the end result is often look at strategic advice. So, okay, do we write in our long year plan that we can or that we will put extra efforts in a certain neighborhood or in a certain area of the city? Um, but of the level of detail of our data, they could also use the dataset or the tool that we provide, uh, to assess individual buildings, uh, to see, okay, but if there's a plan coming in for 20 new buildings on this residential buildings, do I maybe see a, a chance to couple it with different buildings in the area? Or, uh, can I assess it on, okay, does it fit in the current plan of the, uh, of the neighborhood? So there, there are multiple ways to use the, the data. Um, but I think the, the best application would be to just embed it in the system of the municipality. So to actually have something on paper and say, \"Okay, in the upcoming years, we wanted to densify our city or our municipality by X percent by investing in these types of densification in these areas or in these neighborhoods.\" Think that's the main...",
    "end": 1686.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1686.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Okay. And for the owners, are they also direct users and can reach out to you and use your tool to assess, uh, their portfolio?",
    "end": 1695.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1695.0,
    "text": "Timo Walraven: Yeah, we're working on a tool to do that because we're currently having a student who is investigating to get some, uh, uh, example projects, and we wanted to map those example projects and make a tool to, for the owner to put in their address, for instance, and see which example project matches the best with their building or their case. And we're currently working on an algorithm to match buildings within the country to see, okay, how, how does it look like, and does it have the same energy label, but also does it have the same type of ownership? And then play stories with those example projects and see, okay, can we have the, the owners learn from, from the previous examples? Because, you know, if you're an owner, you always can tell that you have a flat roof, or I hope that you can. You know it yourself. But, of course, it's nice to get a feeling because I know in France it's, I think it's more common, but especially in the Netherlands, it's quite new. It's been a topic for a couple of years, but especially for private owners it's quite a new project or type of project. But we also have a lot of privately owned multi-family housing that needs renovation. And there's a, there's a nice chance to combine them to say, \"Okay, let's add one or two rows on top of the building.\" And then instead of, because i- in the Netherlands, for instance, you have no elevator until the fifth floor, so if you go higher than five, then you need an elevator by regulation. Then we can say, \"Okay, can we add two layers to give more housing to people in the neighborhood, but also provide you with an elevator?\" And that could be like incentives to really, to really get owners to think about, \"Okay, maybe we should think about adding new layer.\" Because often they think about, \"Okay, this is a new type of project. I don't know what has already happened. I don't want to be the example project.\" Yeah, you need to learn from examples. And a lot of people are not into it, and the case in the Netherlands is that if you have, like, a privately owned building, only one person have, has to object to the plans, and everything will shut down. So everyone in the owner's community has a veto. And as long as that is, you need strong incentives and also regulation, but also example projects to see, okay, we can convince every owner that there is a benefit for them.",
    "end": 1835.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1835.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Okay, it sounds like you, you're trying to match the role models with some possible followers, uh, based on the circumstances, yeah.",
    "end": 1844.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1844.0,
    "text": "Timo Walraven: Yeah. We also had a period after the Second World War where we rapidly needed to build, and a lot of buildings had the same structure or the same characteristics, and they were built all over the country. So if you can match those building types and say, \"Oh, but another building of your example or of your typology has a nice match with your building. Please learn from that project.\" Because, of course, normally in the construction industry, it's like, oh, you have a project, all the knowledge gets in, gets put in the, the folder in the closet, and then we never learn from each other, so...",
    "end": 1875.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1875.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Yeah, that seems to be a huge challenge in the construction industry that many projects are individual ones. You have individual teams, you have individual subcontractors, and it's pretty hard to scale the know- knowledge and, um, yeah, make it in the end also cheaper, yeah, to, to build in a ecological way. Timo, is there a way to see the results of your works? Most people are listening right now, so where can we, can people reach you and see what you're doing?",
    "end": 1906.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1906.0,
    "text": "Timo Walraven: Yeah, I will send you a link to our demo product so people can see the potential for themselves. I don't know if they live in the Netherlands or not. Uh, and they could always reach me via LinkedIn or via the link you put in the description so we can say more about it.",
    "end": 1921.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1921.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Wonderful. Thanks and all the best for your project.",
    "end": 1924.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1924.0,
    "text": "Timo Walraven: Thank you so much.",
    "end": 1927.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1927.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: That was the final episode of our series, Rooftop Extension. Thanks to Kilian and Timo for showing what happens when roofs stop being one-off projects. Across three episodes, we went from the potential sitting above a whole city down to one courtyard in Dresden and back out to what it takes to build on top in series. If the series was useful to you, a review on your podcast platform helps more people to find it. Go build a profitable circular economy, and please don't forget: the most abundant renewable resource is your imagination.",
    "end": 1966.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1966.0,
    "text": "Jingle: My name is Patrick Hypscher, and this is circularity.fm, the podcast about understanding, building, and managing circular business models.",
    "end": 1991.444
  }
]