[
  {
    "start": 3.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: The material we are now building in, it's spruce, where we all know: in 25 years, will we source spruce from the forest? I don't know. But will we source spruce from secondary material? I think yes. So we will have a lack of spruce, but we at DERIX, we will have the solution, because we will have reused spruce.",
    "end": 24.0
  },
  {
    "start": 24.0,
    "text": "Jingle: My name is Patrick Hypscher, and this is circularity.fm, the podcast about understanding, building, and managing circular business models.",
    "end": 49.0
  },
  {
    "start": 49.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Every circular strategy depends on one unglamorous step: getting the product back. Refurbishment, remanufacturing, resale, harvesting components, closed-loop recycling. None of it works without a return flow. And take-back is the process nobody owns. It sits between sales, services, logistics and procurement, with no budget and no name on the org chart. So how do the companies that do it anyway make it work?",
    "end": 79.0
  },
  {
    "start": 79.0,
    "text": "Welcome to B2B Take-Back, a five-episode series. We look at five systems that exist today: timber elements, truck components, pumps, IT hardware and building electronics. Each episode takes one piece of the problem: the contract, the deposit, the incentive for the person handing the product back, how you decide which product gets which treatment, and finally the demand for what comes out the other end.",
    "end": 110.0
  },
  {
    "start": 110.0,
    "text": "None of these companies started with circularity. They started with the customer who would not sign without a return guarantee, a supply risk on rare earths, or a sales opportunity. We start with timber construction, with a company that writes something into its contracts almost no one else does: a guarantee to take the elements back at the end of the building's life, and pay for them. Our two guests are the ones who made that offer possible. Enjoy this conversation.",
    "end": 144.0
  },
  {
    "start": 144.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: With a background in engineering, she started her career at DERIX about six years ago. Right now, she is Project and Sustainability Manager. Welcome, Antonia.",
    "end": 154.0
  },
  {
    "start": 154.0,
    "text": "Antonia Görg: Hi, thank you for the invite.",
    "end": 156.0
  },
  {
    "start": 156.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: And our second guest has also background in engineering, specifically construction engineering, and worked for multiple construction companies already. Eight years ago, he joined DERIX as Head of Sales, before being promoted to Managing Director. Welcome, Markus.",
    "end": 173.0
  },
  {
    "start": 173.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: Hello, everyone. Thank you, Patrick, for inviting me.",
    "end": 176.0
  },
  {
    "start": 176.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: We want to talk about take-back, but start with a private question. Is there any product in your private space, could also be professional space, that you do not want to give back, irrespective of any take-back offering? Markus, what do you want to keep forever?",
    "end": 197.0
  },
  {
    "start": 197.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: Well, this is a good question, but I think it should be something with a special background, which is a unique, a unique product, maybe. Well, at the moment I'm just thinking about the World Championship in football, and I still have my Trikot from the year 2014, when Germany was winning the finals. And it still has three stars on it, before they had the fourth star. So it's quite unique, and I want to give it back.",
    "end": 229.0
  },
  {
    "start": 229.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Okay, good one. Yeah, let's hope there will be another occasion for such a Trikot soon in the future. Antonia, what is it for you?",
    "end": 242.0
  },
  {
    "start": 242.0,
    "text": "Antonia Görg: I have a candle holder. It's from my great-grandpa, so it's a long time in the family, and I would never give this back.",
    "end": 254.0
  },
  {
    "start": 254.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Makes sense, makes sense. Good one. Let's turn it around and talk about DERIX, because you have kind of a take-back guarantee. Before we look into that, please say a few words about DERIX. Who is DERIX and what does the company offer?",
    "end": 270.0
  },
  {
    "start": 270.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: Well, to say it short, DERIX is a family-owned timber construction company. We are producing timber elements for buildings, and we are also installing them. We have three facilities in the western part of Germany, and we are working across Europe. Yeah, we are about 350 employees, and we have some special ideas, especially in all the question of circular construction and sustainable constructions.",
    "end": 300.0
  },
  {
    "start": 300.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Part of that is the take-back obligation. What is it?",
    "end": 306.0
  },
  {
    "start": 306.0,
    "text": "Antonia Görg: It's simply our commitment to the circular economy. We have it since 2021 and all offers and contracts, and it says that we're taking back glulam and CLT after their first life phase.",
    "end": 322.0
  },
  {
    "start": 322.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Not everyone might be familiar with the construction industry. Just to understand: what's glulam, roughly?",
    "end": 332.0
  },
  {
    "start": 332.0,
    "text": "Antonia Görg: That's load-bearing material. It's big beams and walls. And CLT is cross-laminated timber, that's floors and walls, all load-bearing for the timber construction.",
    "end": 350.0
  },
  {
    "start": 350.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: Yeah, at the end we are buying raw lamellas from a sawing mill and gluing them together, either to glulam, which are beams, or to two-dimensional elements from CLT. And this is also one of the ideas for our future questions in case of circularity. Maybe we will replace these lamellas, which we are now buying from the sawing mill, but I think, Patrick, we will come back to this later, by secondary used lamellas.",
    "end": 380.0
  },
  {
    "start": 380.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Okay, sounds great. Why did you start that in 2021, if I got that right?",
    "end": 388.0
  },
  {
    "start": 388.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: Well, the idea was born in the Netherlands, I must say. We had a first pilot project there. The project was called Circl. We built it in the year 2017, and it was the first project where the customer asked us: are you willing to underwrite a take-back obligation for this project? And Patrick, you can imagine, in the year 2017",
    "end": 411.0
  },
  {
    "start": 411.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: No.",
    "end": 411.0
  },
  {
    "start": 411.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: nobody was talking about the economy. So we were also quite surprised of what does it mean. We went back home, talked about it, and yeah, the day after we said: well, let's underwrite this take-back obligation for this project. It's a project which will last 30, 40, 50 years, so this should not be a problem. And so the building was built in a circular way.",
    "end": 437.0
  },
  {
    "start": 437.0,
    "text": "And what was surprising then, I must say, that seven years later there was a call coming from the Netherlands: yeah, it's time, you underwrote the obligations just seven years ago, but the building had a new owner, he had new ideas, and the building was being rebuilt. So we were quite surprised and say: wow, what, what have we done, and what should we do with the take-back elements?",
    "end": 464.0
  },
  {
    "start": 464.0,
    "text": "Yeah, but then it was quite interesting, but then was the following weeks. And so we had the first experience then, and we asked ourselves: hey, the idea is very clever. We had so many requests for the used material, and the building owner sold them for himself. So he made a lot of money with used material. So we asked ourselves: why don't we do this in general? And that was the beginning of our idea.",
    "end": 494.0
  },
  {
    "start": 494.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Okay. And what was the answer? Why don't you do it yourself? So why did you keep it? So in, let's say, commercial terms, what's the motivation to go from one single customer, we're kind of requesting it, to making it a standard element of your offering?",
    "end": 512.0
  },
  {
    "start": 512.0,
    "text": "Antonia Görg: It's one of the big topics in our sustainability strategy. We say we want a circular economy, and this is how we can support this. And we also see the trees. We will not have the trees in 40, 50 years as we have it now. So we have to find a solution for the future. And our answer to the question how we get our resources in 30, 40, 50, 60 years is to take back what we already had. And so we said: this is our way, and I think it's a really good way.",
    "end": 553.0
  },
  {
    "start": 553.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: Yes, and Patrick, it's not just because we are having an ecological dream, no, it's also because of economical reasons, I must say. Our target is to produce new products with used products in a cheaper way than we do it today.",
    "end": 571.0
  },
  {
    "start": 571.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Okay, let's dive a bit deeper into that and unpack it. And it's also helpful to understand it from the customer point of view. So of course, there are the pioneers, they're kind of setting not necessarily the standard, but pave the way. But there are many other customers who probably don't have this in mind, and it's new to them. So, but what's the benefit for the customer then?",
    "end": 596.0
  },
  {
    "start": 596.0,
    "text": "Antonia Görg: It's simply: if they ever build the building back, they have less waste. We check this, they have less costs. Maybe we can buy them back, so they get something for their waste. And I think that's the biggest benefit the customer has with this.",
    "end": 617.0
  },
  {
    "start": 617.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: Yes, and he can calculate with the rest value also from day one of the building. So the rest value is for sure a very good benefit for the customer, for the building owner.",
    "end": 630.0
  },
  {
    "start": 630.0,
    "text": "And the next thing is what we launched last year, that we can also create financial benefits today by creating so-called carbon credits. And one special, or one important, thing for creating the carbon credits is that you guarantee that you keep the stored carbon in the wood during a lifespan of minimum 35 years. And we can guarantee this by the take-back obligation and by the reuse of this wood, by not burning it, but by using it again. So we can create also benefit from today by using carbon credits. It's also a thing.",
    "end": 669.0
  },
  {
    "start": 669.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Okay, wonderful. I want to understand more how it works. So first, can you tell us a bit how the take-back obligation in general works? And then the second step: how you add the carbon credit layer?",
    "end": 684.0
  },
  {
    "start": 684.0,
    "text": "Antonia Görg: Yeah, we have in every contract and every offer, there's a take-back guarantee. And we say, when the building owner knows the building is built back, then he can call us. We say, okay, minimum one year before he has to call us. So we have time to figure it out, how we can use it, where can we start it, what can we do with it.",
    "end": 713.0
  },
  {
    "start": 713.0,
    "text": "Then, when it's built back, we can speak if the building owner transported to us or if we can arrange the transport to us. And then we look if it's possible that we can reuse it as it is. We want to do this. But we know that a lot of products we can't use as they are. They are too special, too different. So at the moment we try to figure out how we can remanufacture out of this old product new products. And then we want to build with this secondary wood.",
    "end": 758.0
  },
  {
    "start": 758.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: Yes, and what's really a very important factor is the time frame indeed, because actually the time frame for a rebuilt building is very short. And so we want to have the information 12 months before the building is being rebuilt, so because we think the more time you have for thinking with these elements, for these used elements, the more value you can create, also because in the best way we can do a reuse one by one, for example for a big timber frame. But when the time is short, it's more likely that we will do a so-called remanufacturing, which is also good, but which is not putting so much value in it as a one-by-one reuse.",
    "end": 807.0
  },
  {
    "start": 807.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Okay. And on the commercial side, you also have to agree on the price, so is this defined already up front, or is there any negotiation during that process?",
    "end": 823.0
  },
  {
    "start": 823.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: No, we identified that the financial question of every single timber part can only be answered shortly before the rebuild process. We cannot give a financial value on a glulam beam, for example, today for, like, let's say, in 20 years. That's not possible.",
    "end": 844.0
  },
  {
    "start": 844.0,
    "text": "So our take-back obligation is talking about an expert who's then coming out and doing a review of every timber part. He's controlling the condition of the material, he's controlling the reusability of every part, and he is looking on the market what prices are on the wood market actually. And he's also analyzing how standardized is every single element and how good can it be reused. And then those external experts will define the price, which then has to be paid by us, or even not.",
    "end": 888.0
  },
  {
    "start": 888.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Or even not means when the price is so low that it doesn't even cover logistics costs or something?",
    "end": 896.0
  },
  {
    "start": 896.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: Well, it could be that the elements are wet or, I don't know, painted with some chemicals, so we cannot use it again, so then there will be no price. But we hope, Antonia, how much we can then reuse or remanufacture?",
    "end": 911.0
  },
  {
    "start": 911.0,
    "text": "Antonia Görg: I think we're speaking about 70 or 80% for reuse and remanufacturing. But that's only the theory, and we have to look what really works.",
    "end": 926.0
  },
  {
    "start": 926.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: I will come back in 20 years and ask the question, maybe in 40.",
    "end": 931.0
  },
  {
    "start": 931.0,
    "text": "Antonia Görg: We're waiting for your call.",
    "end": 933.0
  },
  {
    "start": 933.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: The good thing is, the first prototype projects have already started. So we have also another project where we didn't know who was the manufacturer, where we didn't know when was it built, so we didn't have no information at all. But we took it back, and now we are in the middle of the remanufacturing process, which is very interesting.",
    "end": 956.0
  },
  {
    "start": 956.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Okay. Yeah, and on that one: buildings can change owners, there are project developers involved and so on. So not necessarily the customer you sell the glulam initially to might not be the one who is coming back to you 20 years later. So this is just easily transferable to other owners? They just need the piece of paper with the take-back obligation, or what requirements do you have?",
    "end": 984.0
  },
  {
    "start": 984.0,
    "text": "Antonia Görg: Yes, we want to take everything back that we have produced. And we are thinking about that we want to take back every glulam and CLT. So not only what we produced, we want everything that is produced with the norms and after the right regulations. And then we want to buy it back.",
    "end": 1011.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1011.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: Yes, and even the take-back obligation, it can also be transferred from building owner one to the next building owner. We just have to get the information, and for us, it's important to know who's keeping the data. The data is a very, very important currency in the future, I must say. And so this is important for us to stand also responsible for keeping the data.",
    "end": 1035.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1035.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: What kind of data are we talking about in this case?",
    "end": 1038.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1038.0,
    "text": "Antonia Görg: A lot of data. We need the norms and the regulations for the production. Maybe they change. It would be great if we know which glue was used, if there's any paint on it, which chemicals are in this paint, because we don't know if they are allowed in 20 or 30 years. We need data about the static of the product. So it's a really, really long list on that data we want to have, if it's possible.",
    "end": 1073.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1073.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Okay, yeah. On the commercial side still, an obligation is something that you might need to put in your books, because people will come to you and say: take it back. Do you create any provisions for that, or how do you handle it in accounting?",
    "end": 1095.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1095.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: Yeah, it's a very good question, but we do not have to put it in the books. We do not need a reserve for the future or something like this. No, this is not the case, because the financial aspect will be made in the future, and also because it will be just another sourcing for us. It's another type of sawing mill, if you want, for our supply chain. It's important, but not for us to keep... Of course we are doing investments in the next years. I think that we will have an own production just for reuse material, like an own small sawing mill for remanufacturing. But we do not have to keep a reserve or something like this for the future.",
    "end": 1142.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1142.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Okay, that's smart. And now coming back to the carbon credits: so how does that work?",
    "end": 1151.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1151.0,
    "text": "Antonia Görg: The European Union have a regulation, it's called Carbon Removal and Carbon Farming. And with this regulation, it's allowed to certify carbon that is stored in buildings.",
    "end": 1167.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1167.0,
    "text": "And on the base of this regulation, we work together with ONCRA and Climate Cleanup, it's an organization from the Netherlands, and they certify the carbon which is stored in the constructions we build. And now we have in all our contracts that we own this carbon and this carbon certificates, and so we can sell the certificates.",
    "end": 1198.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1198.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: And that's a really, really big news, I must say, for the whole construction, timber construction industry. Because now, if you are a company and want to be climate neutral, you don't need to invest in some reforestation projects around the world, where you don't see where your money is going directly. So now it's possible to invest, let's say, into timber buildings, which are being built in Europe, and where you can see it one by one, how much carbon is stored in one building. So that's quite interesting.",
    "end": 1233.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1233.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: And do you need the take-back obligation for that to work?",
    "end": 1238.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1238.0,
    "text": "Antonia Görg: Yes, we have to guarantee that the carbon is stored for more than 35 years. But if you're thinking on supermarkets or something like that, they usually not built for 35 years. They're demolitions after 20 years, and so we don't have the 35 years security.",
    "end": 1264.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1264.0,
    "text": "But if we take the wood back, the timber back, and we use it for a second product, for a second building, then we can guarantee that it's stored and that it's not emitted.",
    "end": 1281.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1281.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: And it's really a quite romantic illusion that you are building buildings with a lasting 100 or 200 years. Well, it would be nice, but the reality speaks another language. And when we look into the market: the one project we now took back, where we didn't know when it was built, we found out it was built in 2005. So it was only 20 years old. That's the reality.",
    "end": 1306.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1306.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Okay. And you said you have a recovery rate of 70 to 80% or so. You can probably then also discount this in the carbon credit, that you don't claim, let's say, the full 100% and only take a share of it, because in the process down the road you might not be able to reuse all the products in timber.",
    "end": 1332.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1332.0,
    "text": "Antonia Görg: We claim 100%, but 5% of it stays at ONCRA, at a certification organization, because they say: okay, if there's some reasons that is pulled back, is there fire or if there's something like that, then we have a storage and we can take it with this. But if we build a building back after a few years and we don't use it a second time, then we have to look, maybe we have to buy or compensate this with the next project.",
    "end": 1373.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1373.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: And on the carbon credits, they actually have a value. Do you then sell these credits in some way? So who benefits ultimately, also your customer, or what happens then to the credits?",
    "end": 1389.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1389.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: Well, first of all, I must say the credit should belong to the building owner. The one who decides to build with wood should have the profit of these carbon credits. But not every building owner, or let me say only very few, know about the possibility of carbon credits. So our idea is that we are the first mover in the whole supply chain, that we create those carbon credits first for our own, and then we can also give it to the customer.",
    "end": 1422.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1422.0,
    "text": "Let's say, in question of negotiation about the building process and the building price, we can say: oh, you can build with DERIX and we can give you the carbon credits, so you have a financial benefit also afterwards. And for the moment, it's that we also keep some of these carbon credits for our own. We are actually not selling them, because this is not our business model at the moment, but we are using some of them for our own to compensate our own emissions, because we are a climate neutral company.",
    "end": 1456.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1456.0,
    "text": "So at the moment we are sharing them with the building owners and using them for ourselves. But Antonia, I think it will be more and more in the next years with carbon credits, and then we will look what we can do more.",
    "end": 1468.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1468.0,
    "text": "Antonia Görg: Yes. And we think that it's a big topic in the next years, and at the moment it's only the beginning.",
    "end": 1478.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1478.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Let's look into the future. You mentioned you're planning to build a line. So will you be able to have a high utilization for that only by DERIX products? Or do you then also need products from other manufacturers that you kind of take back, as you mentioned?",
    "end": 1499.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1499.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: I think for sure we will need also products from other producers. It's not because DERIX project are lasting so long, no, it's because we need more impact. But we've made a first analysis on the market, and we think that the rebuilding market gives us so much, or so many, glulam and CLT reuse material that we could use this for all our production per year.",
    "end": 1525.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1525.0,
    "text": "So if we just put as a target on 10 to 20% replacement in the next years, this would be a very high target and a very efficient target, but a target which is realistic.",
    "end": 1539.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1539.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: And let's look at the business side, because I think for take-back there seem to be two main benefits, main levers. First one is that you can replace your existing sourcing, which ideally comes at the same price or even lower, which normally is pretty hard to achieve. Or you can charge some kind of premium when you sell these kind of products. How is it for you? How does the take-back work commercially, so that it's, yeah, it makes sense?",
    "end": 1573.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1573.0,
    "text": "Antonia Görg: At the moment, we're just at the beginning and to explore how it could work. But we hope that we can get the old material cheaper than new wood. We see timber prices are rising, so maybe in a few years we're happy when we get old material cheaper and can produce cheaper products with the old building products.",
    "end": 1602.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1602.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: Well, there's one basic idea behind our take-back obligation. Do you believe material, and especially timber, is rising in price in the future, or is getting cheaper? What do you think, Patrick?",
    "end": 1619.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1619.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: It will certainly rise in price.",
    "end": 1622.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1622.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: If you answer this question for yourself, then it's absolutely no risk at all, and also no question for us, that every producer should take back his products in the future, if he thinks the material's price is rising. And so do we, and this is our idea.",
    "end": 1643.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1643.0,
    "text": "We are very confident that the price of real material will be cheaper for us, and also because the material we are now building in, it's spruce, where we all know: in 25 years, will we source spruce from the forest? I don't know. But will we use, or will we source spruce from secondary material? I think yes. So we will have a lack of spruce, but we at DERIX, we will have the solution, because we will have reused spruce. So the price will be very interesting for us.",
    "end": 1684.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1684.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Another reason to call you again in 20 years.",
    "end": 1690.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1690.0,
    "text": "Coming a bit to the end and, of course, staying to the commercial side. So there are so many factors, yeah, you mentioned. Is it a product you produce or someone else? Is it the condition? Is this take-back obligation, do you give it out to everyone? Or how do you scope the service so that it's economically viable?",
    "end": 1713.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1713.0,
    "text": "Antonia Görg: In the principle, we give it to everyone. But we have to look if it works well when we only buy a few cubic meters back or if it's not efficient. That will show the future.",
    "end": 1731.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1731.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: Yeah, and many people are asking us: how do you do it in questions of logistics? What do you do with all those glulam and CLT, take it back? Patrick, I must say, I don't know. But we also don't care. Let's try, let's start. If you are not starting now with the take-back obligation, I don't know when we will source the first material back.",
    "end": 1752.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1752.0,
    "text": "But we think, for our ideas, it's that we need 10 to 15 years until we have a constant flow of used material coming to us. So we need this time. We have this time to do many, many prototype projects and to learn and even to organize the logistics. Maybe if they ask us: where do we have the space? I don't know. Are they coming back by a truck or are they coming back by drones? I don't know yet, but we need to put the basis now.",
    "end": 1785.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1785.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Yeah, okay, gotcha. Yeah, and you have to start somewhere and create the problems you want to have in 10 years. My last question is about the future. What do you think, how long will it take you to not need any virgin or, like, fresh wood from the sawmill anymore?",
    "end": 1807.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1807.0,
    "text": "Antonia Görg: I think we will always need some fresh wood, but we will need a lot less wood.",
    "end": 1817.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1817.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: Yes, and fresh wood isn't a bad thing. No, it isn't at all a bad thing. It's a good thing. It's very good for the climate if you take a tree out of the forest and replace it with a new one, who is then taking the carbon from the atmosphere. So there will always be need from a sustainable managed forest in the future. But it will be the technical circle, by taking back elements, will be added to the biological circle, and this will be, from our perspective, a good way to keep also a cheap or economic timber construction in the future.",
    "end": 1854.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1854.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: Markus, Antonia, thanks for building the future already today.",
    "end": 1860.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1860.0,
    "text": "Markus Steppler: Thank you.",
    "end": 1862.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1862.0,
    "text": "Antonia Görg: Yeah, thank you for inviting us.",
    "end": 1869.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1869.0,
    "text": "Patrick Hypscher: That was the first episode of our series B2B Take-Back. Thanks to Antonia and Markus for showing what it takes to guarantee a return decades before it happens. If you want to get the key points of this conversation on one page, sign up for the circularity.fm newsletter. You can find it at www.circularity.fm. It brings you the circular economy events coming up around the world, too. In the next episode, we move from buildings to trucks. Thomas Meyer is responsible for remanufacturing, repair and reuse at Knorr-Bremse TruckServices. Their return flow runs on a deposit, and we go through how the amount is set, how it is booked, and why the core still has to be price competitive with a deposit on top. Until then, all the best in driving a profitable circular economy. And please don't forget: the most abundant renewable resource is your imagination.",
    "end": 1932.0
  },
  {
    "start": 1932.0,
    "text": "Jingle: My name is Patrick Hypscher, and this is circularity.fm, the podcast about understanding, building, and managing circular business models.",
    "end": 1957.537
  }
]