[ { "start": 9.859, "end": 15.079, "text": "Rainer Gehrisch: I am very pleased to present the first edition of WDCAST to you today." }, { "start": 15.079, "end": 25.779, "text": "Rainer Gehrisch: WDCAST is the new podcast format from World Design Capital Frankfurt Rhine-Main 2026 in collaboration with DDCAST from the German Design Club." }, { "start": 31.719, "end": 34.199, "text": "Rainer Gehrisch: Is the power of design underestimated?" }, { "start": 34.199, "end": 36.619, "text": "Rainer Gehrisch: What can design do for democracy?" }, { "start": 37.219, "end": 44.119, "text": "Rainer Gehrisch: To kick off our new programme, we are focusing on the coexistence of design and society." }, { "start": 44.119, "end": 67.559, "text": "Rainer Gehrisch: In this first episode, you will hear an introduction by Gesche Joost, President of the Goethe-Institut, followed by a conversation between my colleague Georg Christof Bertsch and our guests Vera Baur from Civic City and Philipp Cartier from Gestaltungszentrale Politik, who are both represented with projects in the World Design Capital Frankfurt Rhine 2026 programme." }, { "start": 77.764, "end": 80.924, "text": "Prof. Dr. Gesche Joost, President of the Goethe Institute: Well, what can design do for democracy?" }, { "start": 80.924, "end": 86.064, "text": "Prof. Dr. Gesche Joost, President of the Goethe Institute: That is, of course, a very good and important question, and the answer is quite a lot." }, { "start": 86.064, "end": 98.544, "text": "Prof. Dr. Gesche Joost, President of the Goethe Institute: Perhaps if we look back in history to the HFG Ulm, the University of Design, which was founded after the Second World War and had precisely this task and mission." }, { "start": 98.544, "end": 114.264, "text": "Prof. Dr. Gesche Joost, President of the Goethe Institute: So if you imagine post-war Germany, where the Nazi era had completely destroyed society in terms of moral values and the image of Germany." }, { "start": 114.264, "end": 132.084, "text": "Prof. Dr. Gesche Joost, President of the Goethe Institute: So we actually started afresh after the Second World War, and standing on these ruins were clever people, designers, who said: we need a university of design that will also promote this democratic reconstruction through design." }, { "start": 132.084, "end": 136.004, "text": "Prof. Dr. Gesche Joost, President of the Goethe Institute: And I find that a totally exciting and guiding idea." }, { "start": 136.004, "end": 151.164, "text": "Prof. Dr. Gesche Joost, President of the Goethe Institute: It was always about enabling people to lead a good, inclusive, diverse life through design. This was to be made possible through objects, processes, and certain procedures." }, { "start": 151.164, "end": 161.064, "text": "Prof. Dr. Gesche Joost, President of the Goethe Institute: That's what the HFG Ulm stood for, and it also went very far in design theory, of course, actually formulating the first ideas on design research, which also guide me today." }, { "start": 161.064, "end": 165.664, "text": "Prof. Dr. Gesche Joost, President of the Goethe Institute: In this respect, I think it's a good example of design for democracy." }, { "start": 165.664, "end": 180.504, "text": "Prof. Dr. Gesche Joost, President of the Goethe Institute: And today there are of course many diverse entanglements and interventions, which I think are very, very good, such as social design or transformation design or anything that also moves in the direction of inclusivity." }, { "start": 180.644, "end": 189.104, "text": "Prof. Dr. Gesche Joost, President of the Goethe Institute: In this respect, I believe it is a driving force and this momentum as a designer to look at the world creatively," }, { "start": 189.104, "end": 200.484, "text": "Prof. Dr. Gesche Joost, President of the Goethe Institute: to really look at what possible futures there are. And not just to do this theoretically or abstractly, but through manifestations, through services, through design." }, { "start": 200.484, "end": 204.124, "text": "Prof. Dr. Gesche Joost, President of the Goethe Institute: I sometimes wish for more of this in democracy and politics." }, { "start": 204.124, "end": 210.144, "text": "Prof. Dr. Gesche Joost, President of the Goethe Institute: But I believe it can be very, very good for the whole and also make it very concrete in everyday life." }, { "start": 210.404, "end": 213.184, "text": "Prof. Dr. Gesche Joost, President of the Goethe Institute: So design and democracy are very, very closely related." }, { "start": 225.453, "end": 233.573, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: Gesche Joost refers to the HFG institution as a driver of democratic development in the post-war period." }, { "start": 233.573, "end": 236.993, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: Philipp, can we leave it at that, this institution?" }, { "start": 236.993, "end": 238.893, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: The institution?" }, { "start": 238.893, "end": 250.553, "text": "Philipp Cartier: Yes, of course it did take up a real institution that started early on and also brought these concepts together, first democracy and design." }, { "start": 250.553, "end": 257.053, "text": "Philipp Cartier: But there are, of course, many other movements that ran parallel to it, preceded it, followed it." }, { "start": 257.053, "end": 261.693, "text": "Philipp Cartier: Fortunately, this cannot be attributed to just one institution." }, { "start": 261.693, "end": 278.413, "text": "Philipp Cartier: There are great projects such as ‘Anwalts-Planung’ in the USA, which tried very early on to use design to introduce democratic alienation processes into planning processes, into architectural planning processes." }, { "start": 278.413, "end": 281.673, "text": "Philipp Cartier: There are many new projects that are also trying this," }, { "start": 282.333, "end": 285.133, "text": "Philipp Cartier: so fortunately there is much more, especially internationally." }, { "start": 285.133, "end": 290.553, "text": "Philipp Cartier: In the United Kingdom, for example, the Design Council has been around for a long time," }, { "start": 290.553, "end": 296.533, "text": "Philipp Cartier: where design is also truly institutionalised and politically anchored, rather than just an external actor." }, { "start": 296.533, "end": 298.073, "text": "Philipp Cartier: The same applies to the Scandinavian countries." }, { "start": 298.073, "end": 302.453, "text": "Philipp Cartier: In Finland, there has long been the Helsinki Design Lab, and in Denmark, the Mind Lab." }, { "start": 302.453, "end": 307.133, "text": "Philipp Cartier: So there were many other international organisations that also contributed to this." }, { "start": 309.533, "end": 316.913, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: There is this reader from World Design Capital that presents the ten fields of action." }, { "start": 316.913, "end": 324.553, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: And there is a text by Lena Marbacher, who writes in this reader, which has the title ‘What can design really achieve?’," }, { "start": 324.573, "end": 327.193, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: a provocative title." }, { "start": 327.193, "end": 333.133, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: she writes, that it is wrong to think that organisations need to become more democratic." }, { "start": 333.133, "end": 338.553, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: They must not be democratic, but rather democracy-securing." }, { "start": 338.553, "end": 340.413, "text": "Vera Baur: I'm groaning again." }, { "start": 340.453, "end": 344.633, "text": "Vera Baur: I'm really not a nice person. But maybe that's exactly why." }, { "start": 344.633, "end": 367.433, "text": "Vera Baur: And that's perhaps also the project we proposed for the World Design Capital (Design Capital, Anti-Capital), namely that we first need to establish a certain state of the art regarding what we are talking about when we use the word democracy." }, { "start": 367.433, "end": 370.053, "text": "Vera Baur: As I said earlier," }, { "start": 370.053, "end": 374.313, "text": "Vera Baur: it is an authoritarian democracy. Fascism is being installed within democratic systems." }, { "start": 375.373, "end": 379.173, "text": "Vera Baur: But first of all, you need evaluation criteria" }, { "start": 379.173, "end": 385.933, "text": "Vera Baur: for what you stand for, and if you look for a little help." }, { "start": 385.933, "end": 403.773, "text": "Vera Baur: If you look at the indices, the democracy indices, the most frequently cited democracy index, also used by most universities, is the one published by The Economist." }, { "start": 403.773, "end": 408.753, "text": "Vera Baur: So, it's from a business newspaper based in the United Kingdom." }, { "start": 408.753, "end": 412.813, "text": "Vera Baur: They were the first to develop it," }, { "start": 412.813, "end": 416.793, "text": "Vera Baur: and it's still a reference." }, { "start": 416.793, "end": 418.993, "text": "Vera Baur: And I find that extremely interesting to look at." }, { "start": 419.353, "end": 423.033, "text": "Vera Baur: Of course, there's the Bertelsmann Transformation Index and so on." }, { "start": 423.033, "end": 426.613, "text": "Vera Baur: There are various indices available now," }, { "start": 426.613, "end": 438.833, "text": "Vera Baur: but it's interesting that, logically speaking, an index has been developed as a democracy index to help people decide where best to invest." }, { "start": 438.833, "end": 448.613, "text": "Vera Baur: So democracy is seen as a form of government that offers economic security for investments." }, { "start": 448.993, "end": 450.573, "text": "Vera Baur: And what concept of democracy" }, { "start": 450.573, "end": 454.393, "text": "Vera Baur: is behind that? And that might very quickly" }, { "start": 454.393, "end": 458.293, "text": "Vera Baur: lead to authoritarian democracy." }, { "start": 458.293, "end": 467.413, "text": "Vera Baur: In other words, a controlled, consuming citizen who is best off ordering online and not taking to the streets." }, { "start": 467.413, "end": 476.453, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: Philipp, you do not necessarily say that it design democracy. It is a design centre that operates in this specific context." }, { "start": 476.453, "end": 489.293, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: At least, that is how I read the title. It is not a service, as in: we design democracy or whatever." }, { "start": 489.293, "end": 491.433, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: What is your basic understanding?" }, { "start": 491.433, "end": 495.373, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: I would like to add one more thing, because I find the measurability of democracy," }, { "start": 495.373, "end": 497.853, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: which was just mentioned, really interesting." }, { "start": 497.853, "end": 513.313, "text": "Philipp Cartier: There are always different indices that are referred to. Vera, you just mentioned The Economist's index, but there is also the question of what the goal actually is." }, { "start": 513.313, "end": 515.433, "text": "Philipp Cartier: In our discourse, for example," }, { "start": 515.433, "end": 517.433, "text": "Philipp Cartier: Switzerland is often cited as a positive example" }, { "start": 517.433, "end": 527.273, "text": "Philipp Cartier: because it has many elements of direct democracy. But when you ask what the voter turnout actually is, it is sometimes less than 10 percent" }, { "start": 527.273, "end": 534.653, "text": "Philipp Cartier: for these direct democratic elements. And they are astonished when I tell them that we had a turnout of over 84 percent" }, { "start": 534.653, "end": 542.713, "text": "Philipp Cartier: in the last parliamentary election in Germany. So then the question arises again, which is more democratic?" }, { "start": 542.713, "end": 546.773, "text": "Philipp Cartier: I believe that this comparison between and within such levels" }, { "start": 546.773, "end": 554.253, "text": "Philipp Cartier: is simply not possible. That's why I find it really exciting when everything is always expressed in numbers." }, { "start": 554.253, "end": 556.893, "text": "Philipp Cartier: As a designer, I don't know how to deal with it" }, { "start": 556.953, "end": 562.893, "text": "Philipp Cartier: when there's always a percentage underneath everything. But to answer your question, perhaps briefly to add to that," }, { "start": 562.893, "end": 575.853, "text": "Philipp Cartier: we are the design centre for politics, and I think we are making the important point that we want to work on politics. Politics is, of course, part of the democratic whole." }, { "start": 575.853, "end": 579.953, "text": "Philipp Cartier: It is a bit like the functional body" }, { "start": 582.373, "end": 597.533, "text": "Philipp Cartier: that somehow organises certain framework conditions for democratic coexistence and also represents us as the democratic basis, as the sovereign of the people." }, { "start": 597.533, "end": 605.393, "text": "Philipp Cartier: And that's where we want to start, and the whole thing is based a bit on the thesis that a new democratic design culture is needed and what that means." }, { "start": 606.713, "end": 615.573, "text": "Philipp Cartier: The way in which democratic cooperation works is relatively complex. We don't have one person standing at the top" }, { "start": 615.573, "end": 618.433, "text": "Philipp Cartier: who simply makes a decision and then everyone else who lives" }, { "start": 618.433, "end": 622.513, "text": "Philipp Cartier: in this country has to follow it. Rather, it is a complex negotiation," }, { "start": 622.513, "end": 641.773, "text": "Philipp Cartier: a creative process and how it unfolds. In our observation, and not only in our observation but also in that of many political science students, this has become a bit out of kilter because it simply no longer fits the complex problems we currently face." }, { "start": 641.773, "end": 650.973, "text": "Philipp Cartier: The prevailing image that there is one solution and then the issue is ticked off is simply not tenable in the political arena." }, { "start": 650.973, "end": 659.313, "text": "Philipp Cartier: And we believe that there should be a new image of democratic cooperation at this political level." }, { "start": 659.453, "end": 691.793, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: If we move away from the noun democracy and towards an attributive approach, i.e. democratic shaping, how useful is the term? What is democratic design as opposed to non-democratic design?" }, { "start": 691.793, "end": 710.073, "text": "Vera Baur: Yes, unfortunately I can't move away from the concept of democracy yet. I can't just say: okay, now I've discussed democracy enough, now I'm going to move on to design. But that happens very often. And then you do democratic design." }, { "start": 711.733, "end": 727.653, "text": "Vera Baur: I have to argue for a long time before I have defined and understood the first part of the word to such an extent that I can say what kind of design I want. Otherwise, I would also design weapons as social design" }, { "start": 727.653, "end": 746.933, "text": "Vera Baur: – speaking of the Design Council. There is a whole section there on how to kill – in ‘Manifestation Humana’ – how should I put it, for example, projectiles that bounce off the body." }, { "start": 746.933, "end": 753.853, "text": "Vera Baur: I don't want to go into detail, but it's crazy what we can find under that label." }, { "start": 753.853, "end": 763.833, "text": "Vera Baur: And that's why I'm so much in favour of talking more about our adjectives or being more precise about what we mean." }, { "start": 763.833, "end": 781.553, "text": "Vera Baur: Because otherwise, I might be doing very good work on a small scale, but on a larger and relational scale, I might be extremely antisocial, anti-democratic and exploitative, even exclusionary." }, { "start": 781.553, "end": 787.713, "text": "Vera Baur: Perhaps I am wonderfully well-behaved and democratic in a small local initiative." }, { "start": 787.713, "end": 793.513, "text": "Vera Baur: But I believe that we can no longer afford that in this day and age." }, { "start": 794.853, "end": 808.353, "text": "Vera Baur: We talk about local in a positive sense, but at the moment I actually see a retreat to the small unit, because the other is so complex and uncontrollable." }, { "start": 808.353, "end": 816.733, "text": "Vera Baur: And then you appear well-behaved in small ways and you might even achieve something. But I believe you can't combine one without the other." }, { "start": 816.733, "end": 824.793, "text": "Vera Baur: And that answers your question about design: we simply have to design much more relationally." }, { "start": 824.793, "end": 837.493, "text": "Vera Baur: And I would like to point out, since I have already mentioned these indices, that at no point in the past 20 years have so few states been democratically governed as they are today." }, { "start": 837.493, "end": 839.773, "text": "Vera Baur: That's actually a crazy balance sheet." }, { "start": 839.773, "end": 844.053, "text": "Vera Baur: You think that because the perception is somehow different in terms of atmosphere." }, { "start": 845.273, "end": 857.493, "text": "Vera Baur: And that somehow 63 democracies with a population of three billion people are opposed by 74 autocracies with four billion people." }, { "start": 857.493, "end": 872.073, "text": "Vera Baur: This gives you a sense of where we are heading when we design locally but forget the global, planetary and international aspects." }, { "start": 872.573, "end": 875.353, "text": "Vera Baur: That is my appeal." }, { "start": 875.353, "end": 877.873, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: That's a valid point, a very important point, and I'll take that on board." }, { "start": 877.873, "end": 888.413, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: It's an issue for us, for the World Design Capital, to discuss this broader context more intensively." }, { "start": 888.413, "end": 893.273, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: I'd now like to return to Philipp's own work." }, { "start": 893.273, "end": 897.773, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: You've created a whole series of designs, which you showcase on your website." }, { "start": 897.913, "end": 907.173, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: From classic furniture objects to designs that are ‘invisible’ in the sense of Lucius Burckhardt." }, { "start": 907.173, "end": 909.753, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: That's a very broad spectrum." }, { "start": 909.753, "end": 919.833, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: So I'd like to hear more about your own design practice, because it supposedly has nothing to do with design policy, but for me it does. Of course, the two are connected." }, { "start": 919.833, "end": 922.253, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: They are two parts of your work." }, { "start": 922.253, "end": 923.713, "text": "Philipp Cartier: Yes, perhaps one more comment." }, { "start": 923.973, "end": 933.773, "text": "Philipp Cartier: I also repeatedly have the problem of determining at what level democracy actually works and where it can be felt." }, { "start": 933.773, "end": 937.833, "text": "Philipp Cartier: And that is also somewhat of a problem that all studies attest to." }, { "start": 937.833, "end": 943.613, "text": "Philipp Cartier: When it comes to the loss of trust in politics and democracy, it is about lost self-efficacy." }, { "start": 943.653, "end": 960.033, "text": "Philipp Cartier: And that is the core of democracy, that I as an individual can be active and notice that something is happening. When I find others and somehow form a collective bond and we make a difference together." }, { "start": 960.033, "end": 970.693, "text": "Philipp Cartier: And of course, that works much better on a smaller scale, which is not to say that you always have to position yourself in your context," }, { "start": 971.393, "end": 994.433, "text": "Philipp Cartier: But it is, of course, a question of whether, when I campaign for something locally and join forces with other people and we claim to be working democratically, I can always put that into context and whether that makes it accessible at all in the global context, in the global democratic context." }, { "start": 994.433, "end": 1002.833, "text": "Philipp Cartier: I think the discussion sometimes loses focus because we are too concerned with the global and not enough with the local." }, { "start": 1002.833, "end": 1005.113, "text": "Philipp Cartier: But that's just my perspective." }, { "start": 1007.573, "end": 1008.013, "text": "Philipp Cartier: Exactly," }, { "start": 1008.013, "end": 1010.813, "text": "Philipp Cartier: to answer your question, Georg. I'm actually a product designer." }, { "start": 1010.813, "end": 1035.933, "text": "Philipp Cartier: I studied product design, relatively classically, learning the whole craft. I designed furniture, built and designed digital apps, and never had any ambition for it to be democratic or to promote or strengthen or preserve democracy or anything else; it was simply a passion." }, { "start": 1035.933, "end": 1059.913, "text": "Philipp Cartier: My path to working on democracy came through politics, so to speak, because political engagement has always been an issue for me and has always run parallel to my work. I got involved in initiatives that I found exciting in terms of content. Often as a designer, creating graphics and websites." }, { "start": 1059.913, "end": 1065.353, "text": "Philipp Cartier: That was always important in terms of subject matter, but not relevant in terms of work." }, { "start": 1065.353, "end": 1073.873, "text": "Philipp Cartier: And at some point, that just changed for me. I had an incredibly great degree, it was a lot of fun." }, { "start": 1073.873, "end": 1086.513, "text": "Philipp Cartier: But then, when I entered the professional world, it became clear that what I was doing here, or much of what I was doing here, was not at all conducive to social cohesion." }, { "start": 1086.513, "end": 1094.213, "text": "Philipp Cartier: Now, when I design a table, I ask myself, is it needed, or are there already enough other tables?" }, { "start": 1094.213, "end": 1119.693, "text": "Philipp Cartier: And that was simply an inner conflict which, accompanied by a lot of good design theory, somehow led me away from artefacts, products and objects and more towards processes that create things, but more political decisions." }, { "start": 1119.693, "end": 1145.333, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: In your case, Vera, you work with methods that could initially be called sociological methods. You use these methods to empower yourselves in these places: you understand these places and go in. And in this process, something wonderful emerges, namely design." }, { "start": 1145.333, "end": 1157.073, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: So there's the approach, Sarcelle for example, which is a Parisian hotspot on the outskirts of the metropolis, you go in there and then afterwards something has been designed." }, { "start": 1157.153, "end": 1160.293, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: But where does this interface take place?" }, { "start": 1160.293, "end": 1174.693, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: How does, let's say, this analysis, this empiricism, these interviews, how does that translate into a design that is consistent and also generally very attractive?" }, { "start": 1175.733, "end": 1183.873, "text": "Vera Baur: Yes, we have founded a School of Not Knowing." }, { "start": 1184.113, "end": 1195.233, "text": "Vera Baur: And I believe, if I may quote a distinguished gentleman, László Moholy-Nagy: It's about attitude." }, { "start": 1195.233, "end": 1213.333, "text": "Vera Baur: We have learned a great deal through the opportunity to engage in our associative work and through our association and federation, Civic City, which enables us to undertake radical and critical projects." }, { "start": 1213.693, "end": 1216.993, "text": "Vera Baur: Sometimes illegitimate, or even illegal." }, { "start": 1216.993, "end": 1226.813, "text": "Vera Baur: And in which we can go into contexts where we go beyond what we already know and say." }, { "start": 1226.813, "end": 1251.073, "text": "Vera Baur: And of course we have always had design offices, first Intégral and then the Design Laboratory, with which we do larger projects, infrastructure projects, orientation systems. Airports, museums and so on." }, { "start": 1251.073, "end": 1254.273, "text": "Vera Baur: I think these are things that are well known, but interesting." }, { "start": 1254.413, "end": 1270.673, "text": "Vera Baur: I'll answer your question about how the two come together, which I think is important. We do this for every project: we enter the context and don't understand it at first." }, { "start": 1270.673, "end": 1278.873, "text": "Vera Baur: And we don't perceive this lack of understanding as frightening, but pursue it radically." }, { "start": 1278.873, "end": 1287.033, "text": "Vera Baur: We are then also disoriented, we don't have any answers yet. We actually move relatively quickly into ‘prototyping’." }, { "start": 1287.033, "end": 1295.853, "text": "Vera Baur: We translate what we have sensed, felt and perceived into a proposed design." }, { "start": 1295.853, "end": 1299.913, "text": "Vera Baur: And that's where this sociological-ethnological approach comes in." }, { "start": 1300.753, "end": 1305.293, "text": "Vera Baur: It's the approach of ‘design relational’ and ‘objet relationel’," }, { "start": 1305.293, "end": 1307.853, "text": "Vera Baur: the relational object." }, { "start": 1307.853, "end": 1311.933, "text": "Vera Baur: We design something that you can relate to." }, { "start": 1311.933, "end": 1316.253, "text": "Vera Baur: You enter a context in which you yourself are a stranger," }, { "start": 1316.253, "end": 1322.293, "text": "Vera Baur: or you make yourself a stranger, because the stranger simply perceives you differently and more sensitively." }, { "start": 1322.293, "end": 1332.053, "text": "Vera Baur: And then, based on what you propose, i.e. based on the ‘prototyping’, you actually begin to understand how the context reacts." }, { "start": 1332.053, "end": 1334.993, "text": "Vera Baur: And you learn an enormous amount together through this." }, { "start": 1334.993, "end": 1344.853, "text": "Vera Baur: And then sometimes aggression or questioning or even destruction comes into play, but above all, suggestions come into play as a reaction." }, { "start": 1344.853, "end": 1353.753, "text": "Vera Baur: This gives rise to what I think is truly participatory, namely that people start to say, okay, I would do it this way." }, { "start": 1353.753, "end": 1355.033, "text": "Vera Baur: No, no, but it's nice" }, { "start": 1355.033, "end": 1356.533, "text": "Vera Baur: what you're doing," }, { "start": 1356.533, "end": 1357.533, "text": "Vera Baur: and I like you too," }, { "start": 1357.533, "end": 1360.273, "text": "Vera Baur: but now I'm going to make a suggestion." }, { "start": 1360.273, "end": 1370.233, "text": "Vera Baur: And in this, that you've already done something, that you're standing there painting, that you're there at five in the morning when the first workers start," }, { "start": 1370.233, "end": 1375.933, "text": "Vera Baur: and not just arriving at ten in a white suit, but exposing yourself." }, { "start": 1375.933, "end": 1379.333, "text": "Vera Baur: And that sometimes goes to the limit of exposure." }, { "start": 1381.273, "end": 1389.633, "text": "Vera Baur: So we also have a lot of projects that initially reach the limits of failure." }, { "start": 1389.633, "end": 1395.653, "text": "Vera Baur: But that's exactly what it means to remain radically open." }, { "start": 1395.853, "end": 1400.293, "text": "Vera Baur: And I think what you just mentioned, we have sociological approaches," }, { "start": 1400.293, "end": 1411.833, "text": "Vera Baur: but the exciting thing is actually the multitude of references, perhaps our luxury of also operating outside of academia," }, { "start": 1411.833, "end": 1426.253, "text": "Vera Baur: that is, rap, and not rap in the sense of going to the suburbs, but rather an intellectual reference that generates content that can be incorporated, such as children's books and poetry," }, { "start": 1426.253, "end": 1434.033, "text": "Vera Baur: and from all these open references, we actually come up with a new proposal together." }, { "start": 1434.033, "end": 1437.493, "text": "Vera Baur: And these ‘prototypes’ lead to proposals." }, { "start": 1437.493, "end": 1444.693, "text": "Vera Baur: And that's why it's sometimes innovative or different, because it's extremely ‘creolised’." }, { "start": 1444.693, "end": 1449.793, "text": "Vera Baur: So it really mixes our knowledge with what knowledge is." }, { "start": 1449.793, "end": 1451.173, "text": "Vera Baur: And that's perhaps the last word." }, { "start": 1451.553, "end": 1454.713, "text": "Vera Baur: That's simply the first thing we do." }, { "start": 1454.713, "end": 1460.913, "text": "Vera Baur: And that's where I come in with my medical approach as a complementary therapist, which also comes into play:" }, { "start": 1460.913, "end": 1462.633, "text": "Vera Baur: we do resource mapping." }, { "start": 1462.633, "end": 1463.833, "text": "Vera Baur: So every system," }, { "start": 1463.833, "end": 1472.813, "text": "Vera Baur: even if it has an ‘imaginario’ of fragility, of brokenness, every system that lives has resources." }, { "start": 1472.813, "end": 1480.273, "text": "Vera Baur: And discovering, understanding, mapping and connecting them is actually the basis of our design proposal." }, { "start": 1481.153, "end": 1487.833, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: For me, the connection is, as you just said, the advantage of being outside the university." }, { "start": 1489.473, "end": 1494.493, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: There is this aspect of activism," }, { "start": 1496.253, "end": 1499.953, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: which I believe plays a huge role for both of you" }, { "start": 1499.953, "end": 1508.533, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: and distinguishes you from a classic academic research project." }, { "start": 1509.693, "end": 1519.353, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: So when you say that it's not a research project, it's activism, there is also a political will behind it (which is very important to me)," }, { "start": 1519.353, "end": 1521.953, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: there is also a desire to shape things behind it," }, { "start": 1521.953, "end": 1524.753, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: so it's not neutral at all." }, { "start": 1524.753, "end": 1538.213, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: And that seems to me to be the case with central government policy as well, that you don't go in there neutrally and say, yes, we're going to research something like a study project so that we can get the funding." }, { "start": 1538.213, "end": 1542.173, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: And when the funding runs out, the project is ticked off." }, { "start": 1542.173, "end": 1544.813, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: Instead, you take a different approach." }, { "start": 1546.333, "end": 1554.713, "text": "Philipp Cartier: Yes, I think that's exactly the point that, ironically, took us a while to realise." }, { "start": 1554.713, "end": 1570.453, "text": "Philipp Cartier: For example, as a young initiative, we got caught up in these discussions, inspired by great literature and clever food for thought, and dug ourselves deeper and deeper. Then we realised that it was complete nonsense." }, { "start": 1570.453, "end": 1573.773, "text": "Philipp Cartier: That's not how the design process works." }, { "start": 1573.773, "end": 1582.053, "text": "Philipp Cartier: Of course, it's important to be aware of the places and contexts you're entering, to be conscious of that." }, { "start": 1582.053, "end": 1584.733, "text": "Philipp Cartier: Design is never neutral," }, { "start": 1584.733, "end": 1591.213, "text": "Philipp Cartier: and that's why it's so important to be aware of it," }, { "start": 1591.213, "end": 1615.893, "text": "Philipp Cartier: but at the end of the day, it works above all through what you described so beautifully, Vera, how you go to these places where what you want to design is happening and first of all surrender to it, without letting arrogance take over and saying, I know how to do it better here, but simply to observe." }, { "start": 1616.213, "end": 1617.573, "text": "Philipp Cartier: And that's how I have to experience it." }, { "start": 1617.573, "end": 1624.893, "text": "Philipp Cartier: In the end, the place knows the most about its use, and I have to see that, I have to experience it for myself." }, { "start": 1624.893, "end": 1635.593, "text": "Philipp Cartier: And when I get to the point where I think I have a suggestion, a prototype, then I bring it in and see how this world reacts to it," }, { "start": 1635.593, "end": 1637.273, "text": "Philipp Cartier: and then something will come of it." }, { "start": 1637.353, "end": 1646.053, "text": "Philipp Cartier: And that is exactly what we have defined for ourselves as a democratic design culture initiative in the initiative." }, { "start": 1646.053, "end": 1658.293, "text": "Philipp Cartier: So also this iterative and collaborative community design, because ultimately democracy is nothing more than a kind of collective decision-making." }, { "start": 1658.293, "end": 1661.153, "text": "Philipp Cartier: Of course, there are many other things behind it," }, { "start": 1661.153, "end": 1675.593, "text": "Philipp Cartier: but at the end of the day, it's just a way for us to come to a decision as a group. And we try to take advantage of that with the Design Centre by simply going into the context and trying it out." }, { "start": 1675.593, "end": 1678.133, "text": "Philipp Cartier: Of course, with mindfulness," }, { "start": 1678.133, "end": 1686.173, "text": "Philipp Cartier: so we can't just rush in like a bunch of anarchists and do something completely new, but we have to approach it carefully." }, { "start": 1686.253, "end": 1687.233, "text": "Vera Baur: Okay," }, { "start": 1687.233, "end": 1694.793, "text": "Vera Baur: the only thing I think is really important when we go in there is not to be naive." }, { "start": 1694.793, "end": 1701.313, "text": "Vera Baur: I know what you mean, Philipp, but it's about being unbiased and not knowing." }, { "start": 1701.313, "end": 1718.213, "text": "Vera Baur: That's a really important difference, because often designers come to these places and still want to help, what we call ‘sang blanc’. We don't go in with a bias, so to speak, but also with knowledge, of course." }, { "start": 1718.213, "end": 1719.933, "text": "Vera Baur: So we have a whole package," }, { "start": 1719.933, "end": 1721.893, "text": "Vera Baur: of course, we're not naive." }, { "start": 1721.893, "end": 1728.553, "text": "Vera Baur: We go there, we know our role, we understand our privilege and so on." }, { "start": 1728.553, "end": 1734.433, "text": "Vera Baur: But the question is, so to speak, how do you deal with that on the ground and remain open," }, { "start": 1734.433, "end": 1735.573, "text": "Vera Baur: and that's where we meet again." }, { "start": 1735.573, "end": 1737.133, "text": "Vera Baur: I'm just sensitive to words," }, { "start": 1737.553, "end": 1742.153, "text": "Vera Baur: because naivety, I know what you mean, that's why we find ourselves there," }, { "start": 1742.153, "end": 1750.993, "text": "Vera Baur: it can be quite dangerous, because many go in with authenticity, naivety and ‘I forget everything I know’." }, { "start": 1750.993, "end": 1754.753, "text": "Vera Baur: That's not ignorance. I know very well," }, { "start": 1754.753, "end": 1765.293, "text": "Vera Baur: but I don't judge immediately, instead I go in with an open mind and try to understand and try to destabilise myself first." }, { "start": 1765.293, "end": 1766.673, "text": "Vera Baur: And that's actually interesting." }, { "start": 1767.033, "end": 1773.493, "text": "Vera Baur: So you first need stability in order to destabilise yourself, in order to transform your knowledge." }, { "start": 1773.493, "end": 1774.033, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: Yes, wonderful." }, { "start": 1774.033, "end": 1779.193, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: For me, this was somehow the start of a kind of conversation." }, { "start": 1780.693, "end": 1783.673, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: Practice is the crucial point here." }, { "start": 1783.673, "end": 1787.413, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: I believe that it is also important for listeners to understand what kind of practice this involves." }, { "start": 1787.413, "end": 1792.993, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: So you can theorise about it and read this theoretical text, but without practice it makes no sense" }, { "start": 1792.993, "end": 1796.413, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: and then the connection to design cannot really be guaranteed." }, { "start": 1797.253, "end": 1824.233, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: So at this point, I would like to moderate and ask you to make another statement on the subject of democracy – because it has become so important to me in this conversation – or perhaps also to consider a definition of what democracy is in relation to design." }, { "start": 1825.193, "end": 1828.133, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: So what is democracy in relation to design?" }, { "start": 1828.133, "end": 1830.713, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: Not the other way around, but in this direction." }, { "start": 1830.713, "end": 1833.953, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: And perhaps we start with Philipp." }, { "start": 1835.713, "end": 1846.033, "text": "Philipp Cartier: For me, democracy is, so to speak, the system in which we live and want to continue living." }, { "start": 1846.033, "end": 1849.633, "text": "Philipp Cartier: It determines our communal togetherness," }, { "start": 1849.633, "end": 1862.873, "text": "Philipp Cartier: and for me as a designer, democracy is a kind of self-image, how I work on topics, how I design." }, { "start": 1862.873, "end": 1871.973, "text": "Philipp Cartier: And that includes, above all, the communal, the collaborative and also the self-positioning." }, { "start": 1872.293, "end": 1884.033, "text": "Philipp Cartier: And I think that's what Vera also wanted to say, or what I now understand better, that it's about being aware of where you are and in what context you stand." }, { "start": 1884.033, "end": 1890.193, "text": "Vera Baur: So if you ask me about democracy, I'll answer with what design is." }, { "start": 1890.193, "end": 1911.373, "text": "Vera Baur: We chose the title Redesign Democracy because we want to represent the power that design has to transform, to give form, to question form, to take away form, design of subtraction," }, { "start": 1911.373, "end": 1921.873, "text": "Vera Baur: that design can help us to clarify what we mean by democracy and perhaps also play a role in it." }, { "start": 1921.873, "end": 1925.573, "text": "Vera Baur: That is the core: democracy means the rule of the citizens." }, { "start": 1925.573, "end": 1935.393, "text": "Vera Baur: But for that, you need citizens who are mature, who think globally, who think socially and sustainably." }, { "start": 1935.393, "end": 1961.293, "text": "Vera Baur: And if design can play a role in first helping these citizens on their way and then providing them with the tools to create such a planetary, social, sustainable and just world, then I believe in this discipline, which I work with as a sociologist and ethnologist, because it has precisely these powers." }, { "start": 1961.293, "end": 1965.953, "text": "Vera Baur: I look forward to putting them to use; we need them." }, { "start": 1965.953, "end": 1981.433, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: Yes, wonderful, we will hear and discuss all of this in 2026 as part of the World Design Capital Frankfurt Rhine-Main, and hopefully we will also be able to take it apart and put it back together again in small and large groups." }, { "start": 1981.553, "end": 1990.993, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: In any case, it was a very good start for me. Today was the first broadcast of WDCAST. We wanted to put some ideas out there in a way that was easy to understand." }, { "start": 1990.993, "end": 1992.953, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: And I think we succeeded in both respects." }, { "start": 1992.953, "end": 1994.273, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: Thank you very much," }, { "start": 1994.273, "end": 1995.893, "text": "Georg-Christof Bertsch: it was great to have you here." }, { "start": 1995.893, "end": 1998.873, "text": "Vera Baur: Thank you very much for connecting us." }, { "start": 1998.873, "end": 1999.733, "text": "Vera Baur: All the best." }, { "start": 1999.733, "end": 2000.353, "text": "Rainer Gehrisch: Thank you very much." }, { "start": 2000.353, "end": 2000.533, "text": "Rainer Gehrisch: Ciao." }, { "start": 2005.953, "end": 2012.713, "text": "Rainer Gehrisch: That was Gesche Joost, Vera Bauer and Philipp Cartier in conversation with Georg Christof Bertsch." }, { "start": 2012.713, "end": 2019.513, "text": "Rainer Gehrisch: If you need further information, take a look at the show notes or contact the World Design Capital office in Frankfurt directly." }, { "start": 2019.513, "end": 2022.693, "text": "Rainer Gehrisch: All contact details can be found at www.wdc2026.org." }, { "start": 2025.233, "end": 2032.293, "text": "Rainer Gehrisch: As always, we wish you all the best and a creative week. Your WDCAST and DDCAST editorial team." } ]