[ { "start": 0.0, "end": 4.2, "text": " The number one driver of land degradation in the world is our food systems." }, { "start": 4.2, "end": 8.08, "text": " So we are really talking about resetting our relationships with land" }, { "start": 8.08, "end": 13.24, "text": " in terms of how we produce food, how much food we produce, how much water we harvest" }, { "start": 13.24, "end": 19.68, "text": " and how much we are able to regenerate ecosystems that are already degraded or being degraded." }, { "start": 19.68, "end": 24.64, "text": " Welcome to the special English edition of Degorsa Neustadt," }, { "start": 24.64, "end": 27.64, "text": " a German podcast series by Zabilla Bart," }, { "start": 27.64, "end": 32.6, "text": " in which she talks to pioneering leaders who, inspired by the World Economic Forum's" }, { "start": 32.6, "end": 38.2, "text": " Great Reset Initiative, create revolutionary projects that actually do make our world" }, { "start": 38.2, "end": 40.76, "text": " smarter, greener and fairer." }, { "start": 40.76, "end": 49.64, "text": " Land degradation is one of the most pressing yet often overlooked crises of our time." }, { "start": 49.64, "end": 53.48, "text": " Right now, 40% of the world's land is already degraded," }, { "start": 53.48, "end": 56.04, "text": " affecting nearly half of humanity." }, { "start": 56.04, "end": 62.2, "text": " Every year, we lose another 100 million hectares, an area the size of Egypt." }, { "start": 62.2, "end": 64.6, "text": " This isn't just an environmental problem." }, { "start": 64.6, "end": 69.32, "text": " It threatens food security, fuels migration and drives conflict." }, { "start": 69.32, "end": 73.8, "text": " So the big question is, who is leading the way in reversing this crisis?" }, { "start": 73.8, "end": 77.72, "text": " Today, I am honored to be speaking with Ibrahim Shaw," }, { "start": 77.72, "end": 83.88, "text": " Executive Secretary of the United Nations Convention to Combat Desertification, UNCCD." }, { "start": 84.44, "end": 91.96, "text": " His organization is at the forefront of restoring 1.5 billion hectares of degraded land by 2030." }, { "start": 91.96, "end": 97.24, "text": " With over 40 years of experience in global environmental leadership," }, { "start": 97.24, "end": 104.12, "text": " Ibrahim has shaped policies at the UNCCD, the UN Environment Program and the UN Framework" }, { "start": 104.12, "end": 105.72, "text": " Convention on Climate Change." }, { "start": 105.72, "end": 113.08, "text": " His expertise spans forestry, sustainable development and global climate resilience." }, { "start": 113.08, "end": 118.36, "text": " Recently, he was recognized as one of the top 10 most red salt leaders on nature," }, { "start": 118.36, "end": 122.52, "text": " a testament to his influence in driving global awareness and action." }, { "start": 122.52, "end": 128.84, "text": " Good morning, Ibrahim and first of all congratulations on this recognition." }, { "start": 128.84, "end": 131.4, "text": " Thank you very much, Sibel. Good morning." }, { "start": 131.4, "end": 141.32, "text": " So we have a lot to talk about and I think we start with understanding the global land crisis." }, { "start": 141.88, "end": 148.52, "text": " Can we start with the big picture and unfortunately quite alarming reality?" }, { "start": 148.52, "end": 157.88, "text": " The big picture is that 40% of the land is degraded." }, { "start": 157.88, "end": 168.04, "text": " In some parts of the world, severely degraded and the population is growing, the demands are growing." }, { "start": 168.04, "end": 174.2, "text": " So in a way, we are depleting the natural capital, which is sustaining life on Earth." }, { "start": 174.2, "end": 181.32, "text": " When we talk about degraded, to what degree do you talk about degraded?" }, { "start": 181.32, "end": 187.56, "text": " We say degraded when the land is not in balance anymore." }, { "start": 187.56, "end": 195.08, "text": " So you have ecosystems that are being depleted or habitat that is being degraded." }, { "start": 195.64, "end": 201.24, "text": " Soils are being lost and the quality of the water is diminishing." }, { "start": 201.24, "end": 206.44, "text": " So these are indicators that something is going wrong on our land." }, { "start": 206.44, "end": 214.6, "text": " When one looks at the statistics, it is quite a frightening picture we see here." }, { "start": 214.6, "end": 222.28, "text": " And you were speaking with your fellow experts in Davos this year earlier." }, { "start": 222.92, "end": 229.72, "text": " And I remember that you said by 2050, if we carry on like that," }, { "start": 229.72, "end": 234.28, "text": " we will have lost land equivalent to the size of South America." }, { "start": 234.28, "end": 238.36, "text": " So what does it tell us about the scale of the challenge?" }, { "start": 238.36, "end": 247.32, "text": " The challenge is really to continue to feed a growing population and a growing middle class" }, { "start": 247.88, "end": 251.56, "text": " while maintaining our ecosystems." }, { "start": 251.56, "end": 261.0, "text": " So at the moment, we are extracting much more resources than nature can regenerate itself." }, { "start": 261.0, "end": 271.48, "text": " So since we have a growing demand and nature is not in a position to" }, { "start": 272.04, "end": 279.96, "text": " restablish itself, so in a way we are eroding our capacity to produce food and good quality food." }, { "start": 279.96, "end": 286.6, "text": " And we are eroding our economy since 50% of the GDP of the world is derived from nature." }, { "start": 286.6, "end": 288.76, "text": " So it is alarming." }, { "start": 288.76, "end": 296.6, "text": " When you say 50% of the GDP of the world comes from nature," }, { "start": 296.6, "end": 299.4, "text": " can you go a little deeper into that?" }, { "start": 299.4, "end": 300.6, "text": " What that actually means?" }, { "start": 301.32, "end": 307.64, "text": " In essence, our food is coming from land essentially." }, { "start": 307.64, "end": 312.52, "text": " 99% of our calories are provided for by land, by our land." }, { "start": 312.52, "end": 321.48, "text": " In a way, our terrestrial ecosystems, including biodiversity that is found on land," }, { "start": 321.48, "end": 327.96, "text": " not talking about marine biodiversity, but terrestrial biodiversity is absolutely critical." }, { "start": 328.52, "end": 333.48, "text": " In a way, part of our medicines are coming from land and from biodiversity." }, { "start": 333.48, "end": 339.24, "text": " In a way, part of the air we breathe is coming from the land and water we drink." }, { "start": 339.24, "end": 342.52, "text": " Good quality water we drink is also coming from the land." }, { "start": 342.52, "end": 349.24, "text": " So all of that, if you estimate the contribution in terms of services that are provided to humanity," }, { "start": 349.24, "end": 354.2, "text": " it is estimated that it represents half of global wealth." }, { "start": 355.16, "end": 361.16, "text": " So we hear a lot about climate change and biodiversity laws," }, { "start": 361.16, "end": 365.96, "text": " but land degradation often gets less attention." }, { "start": 365.96, "end": 366.6, "text": " Why is that?" }, { "start": 366.6, "end": 370.44, "text": " We take land for granted." }, { "start": 370.44, "end": 377.72, "text": " We have always considered that land can continue to produce the services without even asking it" }, { "start": 377.72, "end": 383.16, "text": " anything. And therefore, we have not paid much attention to it." }, { "start": 383.88, "end": 389.4, "text": " Secondly, I think there has been in the past some misunderstanding about this convention that I" }, { "start": 389.4, "end": 396.52, "text": " have the honor of leading, because the title is Desert Convention to Combat Desertification." }, { "start": 396.52, "end": 400.04, "text": " And desertification has been associated somehow with deserts." }, { "start": 400.04, "end": 404.52, "text": " So those people who do not live in deserts or close to deserts feel safe." }, { "start": 404.52, "end": 411.56, "text": " But the concept of land degradation is much broader than just sand dunes or barren land" }, { "start": 413.0, "end": 415.32, "text": " that is found somewhere in the world." }, { "start": 415.32, "end": 419.48, "text": " So the whole of humanity lives on land." }, { "start": 419.48, "end": 424.28, "text": " And therefore, this is our capital." }, { "start": 424.28, "end": 429.88, "text": " It is important whether you live in a boreal forest or in a glacier somewhere or in a mountain or" }, { "start": 429.88, "end": 434.76, "text": " in the Sahel, you live on land and we live off land." }, { "start": 434.76, "end": 439.64, "text": " Therefore, it is important that we consider this as a national capital." }, { "start": 439.64, "end": 445.64, "text": " We will not be able to achieve anything on biodiversity conservation or on climate change" }, { "start": 445.64, "end": 452.76, "text": " unless we also include the absolute necessity to protect land and conserve it and to make sure" }, { "start": 452.76, "end": 455.24, "text": " that we continue to benefit from it." }, { "start": 455.24, "end": 462.44, "text": " And it's, I think, also important to see it all interconnected, because we talk also a lot about" }, { "start": 462.44, "end": 469.72, "text": " water and but all in single, yeah, we divide it into single problems." }, { "start": 469.72, "end": 471.88, "text": " Are we on the wrong path here?" }, { "start": 471.88, "end": 476.68, "text": " We are, because we are not taking the planet as a whole." }, { "start": 476.68, "end": 478.12, "text": " We are taking bits and pieces." }, { "start": 478.12, "end": 484.52, "text": " And if for those who are familiar with the concept of the planetary boundaries" }, { "start": 484.52, "end": 489.64, "text": " that have been developed by scientists and tested for many years" }, { "start": 491.08, "end": 495.08, "text": " out of the nine planetary boundaries, seven have already been surplus," }, { "start": 495.08, "end": 503.56, "text": " meaning that we no longer live in a safe space in terms of the planet being able to reproduce itself." }, { "start": 503.56, "end": 511.24, "text": " And according to the main scientists that have been developing this, including Johann Rockstrom," }, { "start": 511.24, "end": 516.2, "text": " who is in the Post-Dame Institute of Climate here in Germany, according to them," }, { "start": 517.48, "end": 523.72, "text": " most of the seven planetary boundaries that have been surplus have a connection with land." }, { "start": 523.72, "end": 527.16, "text": " So it is therefore important that we see this." }, { "start": 527.16, "end": 531.96, "text": " And it is not difficult to understand it because as human beings, we live on the land." }, { "start": 531.96, "end": 533.88, "text": " We are terrestrial species." }, { "start": 533.88, "end": 541.56, "text": " Therefore, our impact on land is much higher than our impact on oceans, let's say, or in space." }, { "start": 542.6, "end": 552.36, "text": " Your organization has set a goal of restoring 1.5 billion hectares of land by 2030." }, { "start": 552.36, "end": 560.6, "text": " So if we look at what you were saying, that everything is interconnected, how feasible is this?" }, { "start": 560.6, "end": 564.12, "text": " It is not an easy task." }, { "start": 564.12, "end": 566.76, "text": " Let me just be very honest with everybody." }, { "start": 567.88, "end": 576.12, "text": " But it is feasible in a sense that we are not talking about the public sector only coming to plant trees." }, { "start": 576.12, "end": 577.96, "text": " We are not talking about tree planting only." }, { "start": 577.96, "end": 579.96, "text": " We are talking about agriculture." }, { "start": 579.96, "end": 584.6, "text": " So we already have an impact on land through our farms." }, { "start": 584.6, "end": 590.84, "text": " So every farmer, small or large, has a role to play in land restoration." }, { "start": 590.84, "end": 598.2, "text": " We are talking about new techniques of agroforestry that are more integrated." }, { "start": 598.2, "end": 600.44, "text": " We are talking about regenerative agriculture." }, { "start": 600.44, "end": 606.04, "text": " So the number one driver of land degradation in the world is our food systems." }, { "start": 606.04, "end": 611.96, "text": " So we are really talking about resetting our relationships with land in terms of how we produce food," }, { "start": 611.96, "end": 618.12, "text": " how much food we produce, how much water we harvest, and how much we are able to regenerate" }, { "start": 618.12, "end": 621.16, "text": " ecosystems that are already degraded or being degraded." }, { "start": 621.16, "end": 629.48, "text": " So we are not talking about 1.5 billion hectares of barren land that needs to be put back to health." }, { "start": 629.48, "end": 635.48, "text": " We are talking about land that may be slightly degraded and land that may be severely degraded." }, { "start": 635.48, "end": 641.48, "text": " Both, I mean, all together combined is only 1.5 billion hectares that we are talking about." }, { "start": 642.36, "end": 648.28, "text": " Now, let me also confirm that commitments have already been made by countries" }, { "start": 648.28, "end": 654.04, "text": " to the tune of 900 million hectares of land to be restored." }, { "start": 654.04, "end": 655.64, "text": " So we are not starting from scratch." }, { "start": 655.64, "end": 666.6, "text": " We are really saying we need to probably enhance our capacity and we need to certainly boost our" }, { "start": 666.6, "end": 672.44, "text": " capacity to have a restoration economy rather than having piloting projects." }, { "start": 672.44, "end": 677.64, "text": " So there are large-scale restoration programs that are going on in the world today," }, { "start": 677.64, "end": 679.32, "text": " but we need to boost them." }, { "start": 679.32, "end": 686.84, "text": " But we also need to make sure that private investors do no longer consider land restoration" }, { "start": 686.84, "end": 691.88, "text": " as a non-repayable investment, but rather as a business, as a profitable business." }, { "start": 691.88, "end": 694.44, "text": " And it is possible to have it as a profitable business." }, { "start": 695.08, "end": 702.36, "text": " Yeah. Can I just, because you mentioned the number one driver are our food systems." }, { "start": 702.36, "end": 704.84, "text": " What exactly does that mean?" }, { "start": 704.84, "end": 707.96, "text": " The impact we are having on land as human beings," }, { "start": 707.96, "end": 712.36, "text": " land degradation is due essentially to two factors." }, { "start": 712.36, "end": 713.8, "text": " One is human activities." }, { "start": 713.8, "end": 717.72, "text": " The other one is climate change, changing climates." }, { "start": 717.72, "end": 722.84, "text": " So human activities are essentially for food production or for animal feed." }, { "start": 723.4, "end": 726.6, "text": " But animal feed is also for our food in a way." }, { "start": 726.6, "end": 732.84, "text": " And secondly, it's cotton production for our fashion." }, { "start": 732.84, "end": 739.72, "text": " So these are the two main, so if you combine them, it's all agriculture with a capital A," }, { "start": 739.72, "end": 747.4, "text": " because essentially we are extracting resources from the land through planting some sort of" }, { "start": 747.4, "end": 750.44, "text": " vegetation that we are harvesting for some sort of needs." }, { "start": 751.24, "end": 759.64, "text": " When we look at the human and economic impact of land degradation," }, { "start": 759.64, "end": 765.08, "text": " what are the biggest social and economic consequences?" }, { "start": 765.08, "end": 772.36, "text": " Land degradation is essentially, and land degradation is soil loss." }, { "start": 772.36, "end": 778.84, "text": " And soil loss is essentially the erosion of our capacity to produce food." }, { "start": 778.84, "end": 780.84, "text": " And to produce nutritious food." }, { "start": 780.84, "end": 789.8, "text": " In a way, land degradation is an infection on our soil and our vegetation and water." }, { "start": 789.8, "end": 797.8, "text": " So in very simple terms, we are depleting the capital that we are using to produce food." }, { "start": 797.8, "end": 804.2, "text": " So food insecurity is one of the number one risks of land degradation." }, { "start": 804.2, "end": 808.52, "text": " We may not be able to produce enough food for a growing population." }, { "start": 808.52, "end": 815.64, "text": " And according to some scientists, we may need to produce up to 70% more food by 2050," }, { "start": 815.64, "end": 818.12, "text": " according to the Food and Agriculture Organization." }, { "start": 818.12, "end": 823.96, "text": " So how can we produce more food for a growing population and a growing middle class?" }, { "start": 823.96, "end": 826.84, "text": " I have to say it's a combination of both." }, { "start": 826.84, "end": 831.08, "text": " So how can we produce more food for a growing population and a growing middle class?" }, { "start": 831.08, "end": 832.44, "text": " Of both." }, { "start": 832.44, "end": 836.6, "text": " So how can we produce more food when nature is being depleted?" }, { "start": 836.6, "end": 840.84, "text": " So we have shrinking resources and a growing demand." }, { "start": 840.84, "end": 847.4, "text": " So somehow we have to reconcile this to no question that we need to feed everybody." }, { "start": 847.4, "end": 851.8, "text": " No question that no one should go to bed hungry." }, { "start": 851.8, "end": 857.96, "text": " But the question is, how can we do that at the same time achieve the sustainability" }, { "start": 857.96, "end": 861.72, "text": " and the protection of our planet, so people and planets together?" }, { "start": 861.72, "end": 871.32, "text": " Land degradation has more severe consequences in terms of forced migration." }, { "start": 871.32, "end": 876.84, "text": " You see, when a family, when a family had mother or father," }, { "start": 876.84, "end": 885.32, "text": " is no longer able to feed their people, their children, they lose anything, including their" }, { "start": 885.32, "end": 894.04, "text": " dignity. Therefore, they have no choice but to go somewhere else to recover that dignity" }, { "start": 894.04, "end": 902.2, "text": " and to secure their family. And that migration can be short migration, can be seasonal migration," }, { "start": 902.2, "end": 909.4, "text": " can be far away migration or close migration. So you can go to the next city, to the next country," }, { "start": 909.4, "end": 915.32, "text": " to the next region or further afield. But it is not possible to stay in the same place." }, { "start": 915.32, "end": 923.64, "text": " What is left to the young gentleman or girl from Haiti to do but to flee when they cannot" }, { "start": 923.64, "end": 931.8, "text": " produce anymore for their families? What is left to the young gentleman or girl from the Sahel to do" }, { "start": 931.8, "end": 934.84, "text": " when they can no longer produce? They will not stay in the same place until," }, { "start": 935.64, "end": 943.64, "text": " you know, until they die, essentially. So land degradation is also an amplifier of conflicts." }, { "start": 943.64, "end": 952.6, "text": " Competition over access to fertile land and water is much higher right now than it was the case" }, { "start": 952.6, "end": 960.68, "text": " when the population was smaller in size. So therefore, the more you need to produce," }, { "start": 960.68, "end": 971.56, "text": " the more mouth that you have to feed, the higher the competition for access to scarce land and water" }, { "start": 971.56, "end": 977.56, "text": " and land degradation provides that scarcity that we are talking about. So it is therefore an amplifier" }, { "start": 977.56, "end": 984.6, "text": " of conflicts and you see growing conflicts all over the world, especially in dry lands" }, { "start": 985.48, "end": 992.68, "text": " where people have no longer the capacity to have a balanced life. So it happens in Somalia," }, { "start": 992.68, "end": 999.8, "text": " it happens in the Sahel, it happens in Syria. You see most of the conflicts in the world" }, { "start": 999.8, "end": 1004.6, "text": " happen in areas where there is scarcity of land, fertile land and water." }, { "start": 1004.6, "end": 1012.92, "text": " When you say that we already suffer from 40% of degraded land and as a result of that," }, { "start": 1012.92, "end": 1023.24, "text": " we have food insecurity, this growing migration, etc. Should we not call it an emergency?" }, { "start": 1023.24, "end": 1034.44, "text": " It is an emergency. It is indeed an emergency. We, you see, the question is how can we call it a" }, { "start": 1034.44, "end": 1041.48, "text": " global emergency? Yeah, it is already an emergency at the local level in regional, in some regions," }, { "start": 1041.48, "end": 1048.12, "text": " but the response we have so far as humanity, as good soldiers as we are, is to help them get" }, { "start": 1048.12, "end": 1058.04, "text": " more food. So we ship tons of food to provide them with emergency responses, food distribution," }, { "start": 1058.04, "end": 1065.0, "text": " and we have humanitarian response. What we need to do is to move away from being reactive" }, { "start": 1065.0, "end": 1075.8, "text": " to being proactive. What we have been good doing in some parts of the world is to build walls of" }, { "start": 1075.8, "end": 1083.24, "text": " fences in order to protect ourselves from migrants that are coming to invade us. We are not good" }, { "start": 1083.24, "end": 1090.68, "text": " enough in trying to help those people who are migrating stay home and restore their land in" }, { "start": 1090.68, "end": 1097.4, "text": " order to produce and keep the dignity of theirs and their families and the safety of their families." }, { "start": 1097.4, "end": 1107.72, "text": " What we are not good at is to help them with different techniques, reduce the impact of droughts." }, { "start": 1107.72, "end": 1117.0, "text": " We are very good at responding to emergencies, in other words, and we should shift now our" }, { "start": 1117.0, "end": 1125.16, "text": " attention and invest more on a proactive way in areas where we know that there are risks of" }, { "start": 1125.16, "end": 1133.96, "text": " explosion, implosion, and these risks are not local. We know that there are multiple links" }, { "start": 1133.96, "end": 1142.76, "text": " right now between forced migration and insecurity. We know that there are links between land degradation" }, { "start": 1142.76, "end": 1150.84, "text": " and global security from around the world. If these are well understood by decision makers," }, { "start": 1150.84, "end": 1159.96, "text": " by private sector investors, then it may be easier to change that narrative. But for now," }, { "start": 1159.96, "end": 1164.04, "text": " they are seeing us poor people, let's ship some food, they will be safe." }, { "start": 1164.92, "end": 1174.92, "text": " I remember at your panel, there was also the president of Iraq talking about the devastating" }, { "start": 1174.92, "end": 1186.68, "text": " impact of war on land. What do those conflict and post-conflict regions need to restore their land?" }, { "start": 1187.56, "end": 1199.48, "text": " What they need most is two things. One is policies at the national level that would reduce the risks." }, { "start": 1199.48, "end": 1209.32, "text": " Policies meaning they need to incentivize investments in their countries. They probably need to review" }, { "start": 1209.32, "end": 1218.28, "text": " some land-tunnel regulations in order to attract more investments. They need to secure their own" }, { "start": 1218.28, "end": 1225.48, "text": " people, indigenous people, women and young people who are investing on land. So policy change is" }, { "start": 1225.48, "end": 1234.2, "text": " absolutely important and they need to reduce land harmful subsidies that are depleting the land" }, { "start": 1234.2, "end": 1240.52, "text": " right now in order to repurpose that investment, that public money for land restoration." }, { "start": 1240.52, "end": 1248.68, "text": " What they also need is to look at new technologies that exist at the moment and see how these can" }, { "start": 1248.68, "end": 1259.0, "text": " be invested in a positive way to help restore the land. What that would mean that they will probably" }, { "start": 1259.0, "end": 1267.56, "text": " need to go and build some public-private partnerships or blended finance of some sort in order to" }, { "start": 1267.56, "end": 1276.36, "text": " bring investors to land not as a non-repayable investment but as a profitable business." }, { "start": 1276.36, "end": 1283.32, "text": " Land restoration can be profitable provided there are right policies and regulations at the national" }, { "start": 1283.32, "end": 1290.84, "text": " level and provided that countries also reduce the harmful subsidies that are poured right now" }, { "start": 1290.84, "end": 1298.2, "text": " from public money. Taxpayers are basically using their own money to degrade the land" }, { "start": 1298.2, "end": 1305.64, "text": " which should be that that is the foundation of their economy. Again 50 percent of the GDP. So it" }, { "start": 1305.64, "end": 1312.92, "text": " is important that we understand this and reset our relationships both public sector and the" }, { "start": 1312.92, "end": 1321.4, "text": " private sector. When I prepared myself for the conversation with you I did quite a bit of research" }, { "start": 1321.4, "end": 1330.68, "text": " and I kept on seeing the number 50 which was really a concern. 50 percent it said of land" }, { "start": 1330.68, "end": 1341.4, "text": " worldwide is not declared meaning its ownership is unknown. So how can that be? How can that be?" }, { "start": 1341.4, "end": 1347.32, "text": " We are talking on the one hand about 40 percent of the land in the world is degraded" }, { "start": 1347.32, "end": 1354.36, "text": " and on the other hand I see the numbers and I actually want to verify it with you whether it" }, { "start": 1354.36, "end": 1361.16, "text": " is true. We are saying 50 percent of the land worldwide is not declared. So who do we hold" }, { "start": 1361.16, "end": 1369.56, "text": " to account here? You see there are multiple reasons why the 50 percent I cannot confirm but" }, { "start": 1370.2, "end": 1377.88, "text": " I know it's a large proportion of land of the land that is not properly documented" }, { "start": 1377.88, "end": 1386.92, "text": " and people do not have documents and that may due to multiple reasons. One is customary law" }, { "start": 1386.92, "end": 1394.12, "text": " still is very present in many parts of the world. It doesn't mean that that land doesn't belong to" }, { "start": 1394.12, "end": 1400.84, "text": " anybody but it belongs to a community so it is not individualized. It is not like in the west" }, { "start": 1400.84, "end": 1409.16, "text": " where everybody has an individual piece of land. In many parts of the of the countries of the world" }, { "start": 1409.16, "end": 1416.6, "text": " you have tribes and communities and pastoralists and farmers who own land in common" }, { "start": 1416.6, "end": 1422.44, "text": " and they know where the boundaries are between the different communities so it is not" }, { "start": 1423.96, "end": 1429.8, "text": " that they don't know but they don't have documents for that. In most parts of the world you also have" }, { "start": 1429.8, "end": 1440.84, "text": " small holders including women who are producing but do not own the land. It is very clear that only" }, { "start": 1440.84, "end": 1450.68, "text": " 15 percent of agricultural land is owned by women whereas they have their hands in most" }, { "start": 1451.96, "end": 1459.16, "text": " of the land that is produced right now for small holders. They actually according to some studies" }, { "start": 1459.16, "end": 1471.8, "text": " they have a contribution up to 80 percent of the small farmers economy but they only own 15 percent" }, { "start": 1471.8, "end": 1478.6, "text": " of the land and in some regions that 15 percent that percentage can go down as slow as 4 percent" }, { "start": 1479.16, "end": 1484.44, "text": " like in the Middle East and North Africa region only 4 percent of the land is owned by women." }, { "start": 1484.44, "end": 1491.8, "text": " So that is also a fact. There are lots of disparities and that insecurity that vulnerability" }, { "start": 1491.8, "end": 1498.68, "text": " is one of the reasons why they are not investing on land restoration because they don't have the" }, { "start": 1498.68, "end": 1508.36, "text": " security and because they don't have the documents the titles that would make them eligible to any" }, { "start": 1508.36, "end": 1516.36, "text": " funding from a bank they cannot use it as a collateral therefore that land is left unattended" }, { "start": 1516.36, "end": 1523.0, "text": " or little very little investments and what we do as humanity we are very good at harvesting" }, { "start": 1523.0, "end": 1531.72, "text": " and extracting but not necessarily good at reinvesting to rebuild that capital. So land tenure is one of" }, { "start": 1531.72, "end": 1539.56, "text": " the really challenges that we face at the moment in terms of land restoration because no one will" }, { "start": 1539.56, "end": 1546.6, "text": " come on someone else's land and invest for 30 years for 50 years before they see that how long it takes" }, { "start": 1546.6, "end": 1556.12, "text": " to regenerate ecosystems. So yes, land tenure is a big issue. One additional question to that." }, { "start": 1558.44, "end": 1565.32, "text": " One of our previous guests talked about how investment banks, foundations, royal families," }, { "start": 1565.32, "end": 1573.24, "text": " corporations bought and still buy thousands and hundreds of hectares of land but because of" }, { "start": 1573.24, "end": 1580.68, "text": " legal loopholes they can't be helped to account. So who controls them? Who approaches them?" }, { "start": 1581.56, "end": 1588.52, "text": " Inequalities are important from around the world and large holders are essentially" }, { "start": 1588.52, "end": 1598.52, "text": " amongst the most important contributors to land degradation in the world" }, { "start": 1598.52, "end": 1607.8, "text": " because unlike small holders who have nothing else than the piece of land that they hold on" }, { "start": 1609.08, "end": 1616.12, "text": " large holders can have multiple other revenues. They have other assets. Small land holders have" }, { "start": 1616.12, "end": 1623.08, "text": " nothing else but as an asset but they land. So they have to survive on that land and they will" }, { "start": 1623.08, "end": 1627.4, "text": " do everything possible to maintain the productivity of that small piece of land." }, { "start": 1627.4, "end": 1635.64, "text": " Whereas large holders have they can diversify, they can diverse here and reinvest there and" }, { "start": 1636.28, "end": 1642.28, "text": " it is therefore important that we all consider land for what it is which is the natural capital. So" }, { "start": 1642.28, "end": 1648.12, "text": " it is important for all investors, for all business people, be they" }, { "start": 1648.12, "end": 1657.88, "text": " from large corporations or large families that they understand that the four capitals," }, { "start": 1659.88, "end": 1666.6, "text": " it is important to maintain the relationship between the financial capital, the human capital," }, { "start": 1666.6, "end": 1673.56, "text": " the social capital and the natural capital. There is, we live in a world where if we want to" }, { "start": 1673.56, "end": 1680.04, "text": " achieve anything meaningful on the planet that we all play our role and we all take responsibility" }, { "start": 1680.04, "end": 1687.08, "text": " regardless of who we are and regardless of how how large is the size of the portfolio or how deep is" }, { "start": 1687.08, "end": 1694.52, "text": " the pocket. So I think we quite stated now the global state of land degradation and its problems." }, { "start": 1694.52, "end": 1704.92, "text": " We want to talk now about how do we reverse it. So and let's start with COP16" }, { "start": 1707.08, "end": 1716.44, "text": " which launched the Riyadh Global Drought Resilience Partnership with a 12.15 billion" }, { "start": 1716.44, "end": 1720.12, "text": " dollar pledge. What do you expect from this initiative?" }, { "start": 1720.12, "end": 1731.08, "text": " Riyadh COP16 was a turning point as far as land but more importantly drought is concerned." }, { "start": 1732.6, "end": 1744.2, "text": " The Riyadh partnership aims at shifting the way we deal with drought. Before the COP," }, { "start": 1744.2, "end": 1748.52, "text": " the conference of the parties in Riyadh, I met with many leaders from around the world" }, { "start": 1748.52, "end": 1755.4, "text": " who were telling me essentially we can do nothing with drought. This is God-given and" }, { "start": 1755.4, "end": 1764.76, "text": " what can we do as humanity and my our task was to convince them that while you cannot stop" }, { "start": 1764.76, "end": 1770.04, "text": " droughts from occurring you can mitigate the impact of drought on humanity." }, { "start": 1770.04, "end": 1777.16, "text": " So therefore we need to shift from the reactive mode which is essentially providing humanitarian" }, { "start": 1777.16, "end": 1789.32, "text": " support to a more proactive mode which goes from early warning systems with now science and technology." }, { "start": 1789.49, "end": 1799.37, "text": " It is possible to anticipate and to prepare from early warning to building drought resilience," }, { "start": 1799.37, "end": 1806.77, "text": " to economic resilience, resilience of ecosystems, resilience of societies and communities, going" }, { "start": 1806.77, "end": 1809.49, "text": " all the way down to humanitarian aid." }, { "start": 1809.49, "end": 1812.73, "text": " So it is a package that needs to be developed." }, { "start": 1812.73, "end": 1819.65, "text": " So the Riyadh partnership is essentially a partnership that will be bringing together" }, { "start": 1819.65, "end": 1826.25, "text": " the lowest economies in the world, the LDCs and the lower middle income countries, together" }, { "start": 1826.25, "end": 1834.17, "text": " with financial institutions and hopefully a larger pool of financial institutions." }, { "start": 1834.17, "end": 1840.41, "text": " In Riyadh we only got 10, but we hope we will get more in order to build that partnership" }, { "start": 1840.41, "end": 1847.85, "text": " and forge that alliance whereby public money will be blended with private investments in" }, { "start": 1847.85, "end": 1854.21, "text": " order to bring that shift that we are talking about and for those countries who can lose" }, { "start": 1854.21, "end": 1862.21, "text": " up to 20% of the economy with one event of drought for the poorest of the poor countries." }, { "start": 1862.21, "end": 1868.17, "text": " So building that resilience means that building a more resilient economy for them so that" }, { "start": 1868.17, "end": 1877.09, "text": " they don't have a drop of 10 to 20% of the economy overnight, which is really a disaster." }, { "start": 1877.09, "end": 1885.49, "text": " So the Riyadh partnership is really to build that alliance of partners, institutions, actors," }, { "start": 1885.49, "end": 1892.65, "text": " civil society organizations and private companies to actually join forces with science and technology" }, { "start": 1892.65, "end": 1903.49, "text": " and technical institutions partners to turn the tide on drought." }, { "start": 1903.49, "end": 1905.45, "text": " And yeah, absolutely." }, { "start": 1905.45, "end": 1912.85, "text": " And we have of course also reached already some success through global alliances." }, { "start": 1912.85, "end": 1921.25, "text": " And I would like to look into a few with you and hopefully you can tell us a bit more about" }, { "start": 1921.25, "end": 1922.25, "text": " it." }, { "start": 1922.25, "end": 1927.25, "text": " For example, the great green wall in Africa." }, { "start": 1927.25, "end": 1928.85, "text": " Let's start with that." }, { "start": 1928.85, "end": 1935.57, "text": " The great green wall is an initiative of African governments." }, { "start": 1935.57, "end": 1946.65, "text": " Initially it was 11 countries from Senegal to Djibouti and Eritrea from Mauritania and" }, { "start": 1946.65, "end": 1955.01, "text": " Senegal to Djibouti and Eritrea and coming together to join forces and develop a joint" }, { "start": 1955.01, "end": 1956.01, "text": " program." }, { "start": 1956.01, "end": 1957.29, "text": " It is not a project." }, { "start": 1957.29, "end": 1964.65, "text": " It is a partnership once again to restore 100 million hectares of land, of degraded" }, { "start": 1964.65, "end": 1976.45, "text": " land across the, I mean all along in the basically the southern border of the Sahara." }, { "start": 1976.45, "end": 1984.09, "text": " It got political support from the African Union and these different countries came to merge" }, { "start": 1984.09, "end": 1991.97, "text": " the force and combine the force to combat desertification and to propose land restoration." }, { "start": 1991.97, "end": 1999.25, "text": " Many people initially saw it with a smile saying that yes, it is one of these good projects," }, { "start": 1999.25, "end": 2002.81, "text": " but it will never succeed because it is difficult." }, { "start": 2002.81, "end": 2005.53, "text": " Indeed, it is difficult." }, { "start": 2005.53, "end": 2009.93, "text": " We are dealing here with the poorest region in the world." }, { "start": 2009.93, "end": 2017.85, "text": " We are dealing here with the highest growth rate in terms of population growth." }, { "start": 2017.85, "end": 2025.29, "text": " We are having here the most severely degraded ecosystem in the world, the Sahara and the" }, { "start": 2025.29, "end": 2029.49, "text": " Sahel and probably the largest desert in the world." }, { "start": 2029.49, "end": 2037.45, "text": " So if we were looking for a difficult case, we got it." }, { "start": 2037.45, "end": 2044.01, "text": " So the great green world is therefore that ambition to restore land and to bring it back" }, { "start": 2044.01, "end": 2052.37, "text": " to health in order to produce more food for a growing population, in order to propose" }, { "start": 2052.37, "end": 2059.73, "text": " to promote stability and security for millions of people from around the Sahel." }, { "start": 2059.73, "end": 2066.81, "text": " Now a lot of progress has been made, but a long way to go to actually achieve the ambition" }, { "start": 2066.81, "end": 2069.77, "text": " of 100 million hectares." }, { "start": 2069.77, "end": 2077.33, "text": " The good thing about it is that it has served now as an example, as an example to many other" }, { "start": 2077.33, "end": 2084.29, "text": " regions, including the Middle East with the Middle East Green Initiative, which is promoted" }, { "start": 2084.29, "end": 2090.17, "text": " essentially by the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, 200 million hectares of land to be restored" }, { "start": 2090.17, "end": 2097.85, "text": " between Central Asia all the way to North Africa and some countries in Sub-Saharan Africa." }, { "start": 2097.85, "end": 2101.97, "text": " And then the southern African countries of the Sardic region, the southern African developed" }, { "start": 2101.97, "end": 2107.69, "text": " community region, also decided to have its own great green world in the south." }, { "start": 2107.69, "end": 2113.69, "text": " So I think there is an understanding right now that large-scale restoration programs" }, { "start": 2113.69, "end": 2117.25, "text": " can work and they can produce good results." }, { "start": 2117.25, "end": 2124.89, "text": " And countries are willing to put their money, be it domestic money or through loans, combined" }, { "start": 2124.89, "end": 2133.77, "text": " with grants in order to regenerate these ecosystems for agriculture, for ecotourism, all the mining" }, { "start": 2133.77, "end": 2139.77, "text": " sites that can be restored in order to bring that land back to health and produce again," }, { "start": 2139.77, "end": 2146.41, "text": " or simply to restore wetlands and water points that are essential for food." }, { "start": 2146.41, "end": 2153.25, "text": " I have to say that in Latin America, there is a similar initiative called Dry Corridor" }, { "start": 2153.25, "end": 2159.81, "text": " that is also affecting all the countries in that region that would be, that are willing" }, { "start": 2159.81, "end": 2160.81, "text": " to work together." }, { "start": 2160.81, "end": 2165.37, "text": " So I think it is being replicated in many parts of the world." }, { "start": 2165.37, "end": 2171.85, "text": " I was very happy to see that Uzbekistan is also investing a lot of resources in the RLC" }, { "start": 2171.85, "end": 2174.81, "text": " together with Kazakhstan to restore that land." }, { "start": 2174.81, "end": 2182.09, "text": " China is known as being the number one country in terms of land restoration in the world," }, { "start": 2182.09, "end": 2187.53, "text": " not only in the Los Plateau, but also in the Taklamakan Desert and in the northwestern part" }, { "start": 2187.53, "end": 2188.53, "text": " of the country." }, { "start": 2188.53, "end": 2198.01, "text": " So it is, I think, blooming as investments, but mostly private public investments, mostly" }, { "start": 2198.01, "end": 2202.41, "text": " public investments for now." }, { "start": 2202.41, "end": 2210.01, "text": " When you, just for clarification, when you talk about to restore 100 million hectares" }, { "start": 2210.01, "end": 2219.29, "text": " of land or 200 million hectares of land, and I remember that you mentioned in Davos that" }, { "start": 2219.29, "end": 2225.17, "text": " please don't imagine it is only planting trees." }, { "start": 2225.17, "end": 2231.01, "text": " Can you go into a bit more detail what it actually means on the ground?" }, { "start": 2231.01, "end": 2235.01, "text": " We are talking about, of course, we are talking about restoring ecosystems." }, { "start": 2235.01, "end": 2236.29, "text": " So don't get me wrong." }, { "start": 2236.29, "end": 2238.65, "text": " We also need to restore ecosystems." }, { "start": 2238.65, "end": 2248.57, "text": " But in the Sahel, the program has six components, including renewable energy." }, { "start": 2248.57, "end": 2251.97, "text": " You can do nothing without energy." }, { "start": 2251.97, "end": 2261.05, "text": " So you need to reduce food loss, post harvest loss, and that can be improved through energy" }, { "start": 2261.05, "end": 2265.89, "text": " and conserving the food that otherwise will be brought by the sun." }, { "start": 2265.89, "end": 2274.69, "text": " So using that same sun and solar radiation to produce cold in order to conserve the food." }, { "start": 2274.69, "end": 2282.65, "text": " So in other words, it's transforming heat to cold and conserving food." }, { "start": 2282.65, "end": 2285.61, "text": " And therefore renewable energy is important." }, { "start": 2285.61, "end": 2294.33, "text": " It has a component on social aspects like women and children and young people." }, { "start": 2294.33, "end": 2298.05, "text": " It is now in the Sahel." }, { "start": 2298.05, "end": 2304.33, "text": " The Sahel has the youngest population in the world and the fastest growing population in" }, { "start": 2304.33, "end": 2305.33, "text": " the world." }, { "start": 2305.33, "end": 2310.25, "text": " So otherwise, unless you invest in these young people, you will not achieve anything meaningful." }, { "start": 2310.25, "end": 2317.41, "text": " So it is important that you invest in them and you help them be what we call land entrepreneurs." }, { "start": 2317.41, "end": 2322.53, "text": " So young entrepreneurs that are reinvesting on the land in order to have a more integrated" }, { "start": 2322.53, "end": 2329.25, "text": " approach in producing food, but also being able to process that food and create the added" }, { "start": 2329.25, "end": 2336.49, "text": " value that is absolutely necessary before they ship it to the next city or to the next" }, { "start": 2336.49, "end": 2338.01, "text": " countries." }, { "start": 2338.01, "end": 2345.65, "text": " So it's a transformation that is needed there that goes beyond just ecosystem restoration," }, { "start": 2345.65, "end": 2348.33, "text": " but also includes ecosystem restoration." }, { "start": 2348.33, "end": 2356.41, "text": " But it is essentially food, energy, peace and security, water quality in order to make sure" }, { "start": 2356.41, "end": 2362.77, "text": " that you have water, not only for drinking, but also for irrigation, for agriculture and" }, { "start": 2362.77, "end": 2363.77, "text": " so forth." }, { "start": 2363.77, "end": 2367.29, "text": " And saving water is an essential part of it." }, { "start": 2367.29, "end": 2374.53, "text": " But this is exactly what they lack, food, water, peace, security." }, { "start": 2374.53, "end": 2375.77, "text": " And jobs." }, { "start": 2375.77, "end": 2376.77, "text": " And jobs." }, { "start": 2376.77, "end": 2377.77, "text": " Yeah." }, { "start": 2377.77, "end": 2380.01, "text": " So how can we do better?" }, { "start": 2380.01, "end": 2386.89, "text": " Well, essentially the program is to help them get, you know, to, for the program to provide" }, { "start": 2386.89, "end": 2389.21, "text": " responses to these solutions." }, { "start": 2389.21, "end": 2399.61, "text": " You see, in this hell, since you are bringing me, bringing me back to that point, we have" }, { "start": 2399.61, "end": 2403.61, "text": " insecurity and extreme violence is going on there." }, { "start": 2403.61, "end": 2409.57, "text": " And most of these young people, they are not doing it because they are, you know, they" }, { "start": 2409.57, "end": 2411.37, "text": " have a religious belief or whatever." }, { "start": 2411.37, "end": 2413.77, "text": " It is not about their religion." }, { "start": 2413.77, "end": 2416.29, "text": " They are doing it because they have nothing else to do." }, { "start": 2416.29, "end": 2419.97, "text": " And when they get 100 or $200, it's a lot of money for them." }, { "start": 2419.97, "end": 2422.29, "text": " They don't ask where that money is coming from." }, { "start": 2422.29, "end": 2428.53, "text": " So therefore they can be driven to a process which was, which is not initially theirs, but" }, { "start": 2428.53, "end": 2430.53, "text": " simply because they have no other choice." }, { "start": 2430.53, "end": 2437.29, "text": " So it is clear that we need to understand that the military responses that were provided" }, { "start": 2437.29, "end": 2441.97, "text": " at that time and are still provided will not be sufficient to bring peace back because" }, { "start": 2441.97, "end": 2445.05, "text": " we are not talking about armies that are fighting each other." }, { "start": 2445.05, "end": 2450.09, "text": " Even armies will have to sit in a negotiating table at some point in time." }, { "start": 2450.09, "end": 2455.57, "text": " So it is important that we understand that the big disease that is affecting the Sahel" }, { "start": 2455.57, "end": 2463.89, "text": " right now is really a crisis of ecosystems, land, water and capacity to produce food and" }, { "start": 2463.89, "end": 2471.29, "text": " to essentially bring peace and security to families." }, { "start": 2471.29, "end": 2475.05, "text": " We have all these United Nations organizations." }, { "start": 2475.05, "end": 2480.37, "text": " We have the willing of the private public partnerships." }, { "start": 2480.37, "end": 2484.13, "text": " And yet we are kind of going into circles." }, { "start": 2484.13, "end": 2486.85, "text": " It seems from where I am standing." }, { "start": 2486.85, "end": 2488.77, "text": " Am I wrong?" }, { "start": 2488.77, "end": 2494.61, "text": " We need to really rethink all together with humility." }, { "start": 2494.61, "end": 2497.77, "text": " I think that's the point number one." }, { "start": 2497.77, "end": 2502.73, "text": " No one should be certain that this is the solution and the only solution." }, { "start": 2502.73, "end": 2510.13, "text": " Secondly, we need to understand that investing in land restoration is an investment." }, { "start": 2510.13, "end": 2517.49, "text": " This is something that is providing short term, short term, but most importantly long term" }, { "start": 2517.49, "end": 2519.69, "text": " gains." }, { "start": 2519.69, "end": 2523.61, "text": " So governments will have to come together with private sector." }, { "start": 2523.61, "end": 2532.21, "text": " At the moment, what we observe is that investments from the private sector on land restoration" }, { "start": 2532.21, "end": 2537.93, "text": " globally represent 6% of the investments that have been made so far." }, { "start": 2537.93, "end": 2546.69, "text": " So somehow the public sector and we as United Nations have not been able to either we have" }, { "start": 2546.69, "end": 2552.41, "text": " not been able to track investments that have been made or we have not been able to convince" }, { "start": 2552.41, "end": 2559.37, "text": " the private sector to invest on land restoration rather than just investing on extraction of" }, { "start": 2559.37, "end": 2562.41, "text": " minerals and resources." }, { "start": 2562.41, "end": 2572.69, "text": " So it is, I think, a responsibility that we all have to say that yes, we need to reset" }, { "start": 2572.69, "end": 2573.69, "text": " our relationship." }, { "start": 2573.69, "end": 2578.93, "text": " We are not winning the battle at the moment." }, { "start": 2578.93, "end": 2589.73, "text": " Looking at China's success in the transformation, do you think this top down approach is maybe" }, { "start": 2589.73, "end": 2594.57, "text": " something we should all take a look at?" }, { "start": 2594.57, "end": 2599.81, "text": " I don't think we can have a straight jacket and say that yes, they have been successful" }, { "start": 2599.81, "end": 2602.49, "text": " in one part of the world because of their system." }, { "start": 2602.49, "end": 2606.41, "text": " They have a system, they have a government system which is theirs." }, { "start": 2606.41, "end": 2608.37, "text": " It works for them." }, { "start": 2608.37, "end": 2611.49, "text": " Whether that system will work for other countries, I don't know." }, { "start": 2611.49, "end": 2617.97, "text": " I think every country will have to design its own plan according to its sociology, according" }, { "start": 2617.97, "end": 2626.01, "text": " to its political systems in order to come up with a solution." }, { "start": 2626.01, "end": 2633.81, "text": " The one thing in common that all countries have is that there is a responsibility from" }, { "start": 2633.81, "end": 2638.45, "text": " governments, regardless of the regimes or the elections and so forth." }, { "start": 2638.45, "end": 2645.65, "text": " There is a responsibility that we all need to understand and we all need to really take" }, { "start": 2645.65, "end": 2647.85, "text": " very seriously." }, { "start": 2647.85, "end": 2651.17, "text": " Government restoration is compulsory." }, { "start": 2651.17, "end": 2653.41, "text": " We do not have additional land." }, { "start": 2653.41, "end": 2660.57, "text": " There is no planet B. If you have a growing population and shrinking resources, I think" }, { "start": 2660.57, "end": 2668.61, "text": " that is sufficient a warning that something is not going right in the world." }, { "start": 2668.61, "end": 2675.13, "text": " It would not be sufficient to hide in the national borders of one country just to think" }, { "start": 2675.13, "end": 2678.85, "text": " that that is their problem, they will fix it." }, { "start": 2678.85, "end": 2685.37, "text": " We all are the same planet and no matter how many walls are being built in the world, people" }, { "start": 2685.37, "end": 2688.17, "text": " will migrate if they don't have a choice." }, { "start": 2688.17, "end": 2696.05, "text": " So it is, when a disease occurs, these infectious diseases, they don't know borders and we know" }, { "start": 2696.05, "end": 2702.25, "text": " that there are lots of diseases in the world today, infectious diseases that are zoonotic," }, { "start": 2702.25, "end": 2704.17, "text": " originating from animals." }, { "start": 2704.17, "end": 2709.97, "text": " What is happening is that we as humans are destroying habitats and going to some places" }, { "start": 2709.97, "end": 2716.57, "text": " where we were not before and we don't have the immunity against these new diseases, new" }, { "start": 2716.57, "end": 2718.01, "text": " infectious diseases." }, { "start": 2718.01, "end": 2724.73, "text": " So if the World Health Organization keeps telling us that up to 75% of new infectious diseases" }, { "start": 2724.73, "end": 2730.81, "text": " are coming from animals and some of these diseases are unknown to us, it means that" }, { "start": 2730.81, "end": 2733.81, "text": " we have brought them to our families." }, { "start": 2733.81, "end": 2737.01, "text": " They were somewhere else, they existed these viruses." }, { "start": 2737.01, "end": 2743.09, "text": " So it is therefore important that we understand that land degradation has multiple other consequences," }, { "start": 2743.09, "end": 2747.77, "text": " including health, including economy, including security and peace and so forth." }, { "start": 2747.77, "end": 2752.65, "text": " So it is, we are all interconnected as society and humanity." }, { "start": 2752.65, "end": 2759.37, "text": " Earlier on, you started on talking about technology and AI when I probably rudely interrupted" }, { "start": 2759.37, "end": 2760.93, "text": " you." }, { "start": 2760.93, "end": 2769.61, "text": " When AI and satellite monitoring and other technologies help with the complexity?" }, { "start": 2769.61, "end": 2773.01, "text": " Yes." }, { "start": 2773.01, "end": 2776.49, "text": " Thank you for raising that question." }, { "start": 2776.49, "end": 2786.29, "text": " In my view, two conditions have to be met in order to achieve the ambitions of ours." }, { "start": 2786.29, "end": 2789.25, "text": " One is the policy, at the policy level." }, { "start": 2789.25, "end": 2796.49, "text": " So we should have more consistency of decisions when cops are being organized and there are" }, { "start": 2796.49, "end": 2798.45, "text": " multiple cops being organized every year." }, { "start": 2798.45, "end": 2803.45, "text": " So it's not only biodiversity or climate or land degradation, there are multiple other" }, { "start": 2803.45, "end": 2805.41, "text": " cops but they are all interconnected." }, { "start": 2805.41, "end": 2807.89, "text": " Like land is interconnected with pollution." }, { "start": 2807.89, "end": 2813.37, "text": " We did not even mention the pollution conventions that are there." }, { "start": 2813.37, "end": 2816.05, "text": " So it's a very complex issue." }, { "start": 2816.05, "end": 2822.81, "text": " So policy has to be more consistent and we have science that is now clear." }, { "start": 2822.81, "end": 2830.01, "text": " And scientists are doing a great job in trying to explain the connectivity between these two" }, { "start": 2830.01, "end": 2832.33, "text": " different issues." }, { "start": 2832.33, "end": 2836.01, "text": " Second condition is the technology aspect that you are talking about." }, { "start": 2836.01, "end": 2841.85, "text": " We have tools right now which our grandparents or even our parents did not have." }, { "start": 2841.85, "end": 2845.93, "text": " And probably our children will have more tools than we do have." }, { "start": 2845.93, "end": 2853.45, "text": " So it is important that all of these tools are now being deployed as far as land, climate," }, { "start": 2853.45, "end": 2860.49, "text": " biodiversity and nature is concerned to actually bring these solutions there because we have" }, { "start": 2860.49, "end": 2862.61, "text": " more intelligence." }, { "start": 2862.61, "end": 2866.93, "text": " We have more intelligence, meaning, you know, we have more." }, { "start": 2866.93, "end": 2867.93, "text": " It's not Intel." }, { "start": 2867.93, "end": 2871.77, "text": " I would, otherwise I would doubt it, yes." }, { "start": 2871.77, "end": 2876.13, "text": " We have more tools right now." }, { "start": 2876.13, "end": 2878.77, "text": " We have satellites, you are right." }, { "start": 2878.77, "end": 2881.61, "text": " We have drones that can help a lot." }, { "start": 2881.61, "end": 2888.13, "text": " And we have, even in nuclear science, can help us with civil applications that are absolutely" }, { "start": 2888.13, "end": 2896.53, "text": " fascinating coming together in terms of water saving, in terms of erosion, reducing erosion" }, { "start": 2896.53, "end": 2899.53, "text": " in the world and so forth, in food production." }, { "start": 2899.53, "end": 2907.69, "text": " So I think it is a package that needs to be put in place and some sort of transformation" }, { "start": 2907.69, "end": 2914.17, "text": " of those institutions that were created 80 years ago, 60 years ago, 40 years ago, to actually" }, { "start": 2914.17, "end": 2920.33, "text": " bring them to the new world that we have in front of us." }, { "start": 2920.33, "end": 2930.05, "text": " And that technology will also mean that as far as land is concerned, that our farmers," }, { "start": 2930.05, "end": 2939.69, "text": " you see, on average, farmers, small holders, are 60 years old on average." }, { "start": 2939.69, "end": 2944.85, "text": " So in a way, the youth of the world, the 1 billion young people in the world that are" }, { "start": 2944.85, "end": 2949.73, "text": " ready to engage are not yet fully associated with agriculture because it's painful." }, { "start": 2949.73, "end": 2950.73, "text": " It's manual." }, { "start": 2950.73, "end": 2955.49, "text": " It's not attractive to them." }, { "start": 2955.49, "end": 2963.29, "text": " Yet they have now new technologies that can be helping them with a little bit of support." }, { "start": 2963.29, "end": 2972.25, "text": " Probably you can create new businesses that are very adapted to the new world that we" }, { "start": 2972.25, "end": 2977.53, "text": " are in essentially deploying the artificial intelligence and new technologies that we" }, { "start": 2977.53, "end": 2978.53, "text": " are talking about." }, { "start": 2978.53, "end": 2986.29, "text": " I think it is possible, but it will require some coordination." }, { "start": 2986.29, "end": 2992.49, "text": " It will require some leadership in some countries instead of fighting each other and competing," }, { "start": 2992.49, "end": 2999.93, "text": " maybe joining forces and seeing how can we do this for good, AI for good, business for" }, { "start": 2999.93, "end": 3006.89, "text": " good, and certainly taking care of the planet will require more cooperation than exists" }, { "start": 3006.89, "end": 3011.49, "text": " at the moment." }, { "start": 3011.49, "end": 3017.65, "text": " If we look from a different perspective, that for example, many countries enjoy living in" }, { "start": 3017.65, "end": 3024.17, "text": " the fourth industrial revolution already, and probably half of the world's citizens" }, { "start": 3024.17, "end": 3030.21, "text": " haven't even reached the second industrial revolution, meaning they can't even enjoy" }, { "start": 3030.21, "end": 3032.97, "text": " energy security." }, { "start": 3032.97, "end": 3043.85, "text": " And yet when we talk about technology, finance, partnerships, AI, we cannot seriously leave" }, { "start": 3043.85, "end": 3052.41, "text": " to tackle land degradation or water problems to the one single farmer between Sahel and" }, { "start": 3052.41, "end": 3054.41, "text": " Saudi Arabia." }, { "start": 3054.41, "end": 3059.17, "text": " Don't we need stronger collaboration here and stronger communities and of course far" }, { "start": 3059.17, "end": 3060.57, "text": " more commitment?" }, { "start": 3060.57, "end": 3061.57, "text": " Yes." }, { "start": 3061.57, "end": 3070.93, "text": " And the question is how can we accelerate access by these small farmers to technology?" }, { "start": 3070.93, "end": 3073.41, "text": " And they are not closing their doors." }, { "start": 3073.41, "end": 3081.01, "text": " They are very open and you go to any place, remote village, somewhere in Africa you will" }, { "start": 3081.01, "end": 3083.09, "text": " find that they have mobile technology." }, { "start": 3083.09, "end": 3088.25, "text": " Or if they don't, maybe the new technology using satellites will help them have access" }, { "start": 3088.25, "end": 3090.01, "text": " to that technology." }, { "start": 3090.01, "end": 3096.85, "text": " So I think we are in a revolution that can, even though they may be in the second revolution," }, { "start": 3096.85, "end": 3101.85, "text": " they may actually shift right away to the first technology without necessarily, so in" }, { "start": 3101.85, "end": 3105.33, "text": " a way it can be accelerated." }, { "start": 3105.33, "end": 3112.57, "text": " This is one of the ambitions of the Riyadh-Draut-Risilians partnership that we talked about earlier." }, { "start": 3112.57, "end": 3118.01, "text": " The early warning systems that we are talking about are not using traditional technologies." }, { "start": 3118.01, "end": 3126.61, "text": " We are advocating for access to new technologies to those communities who may have maybe 2G," }, { "start": 3126.61, "end": 3132.53, "text": " 3G, satellite, I mean network that can be boosted to a much larger technology, access" }, { "start": 3132.53, "end": 3134.57, "text": " to technology." }, { "start": 3134.57, "end": 3137.93, "text": " And the role of governments here." }, { "start": 3137.93, "end": 3143.37, "text": " Governments have budgets, governments have taxes, wouldn't be in for the, and this is" }, { "start": 3143.37, "end": 3144.37, "text": " just an idea." }, { "start": 3144.37, "end": 3150.01, "text": " I hope you can respond positively to that." }, { "start": 3150.01, "end": 3155.53, "text": " What would happen if government calls a kind of state of an emergency in poorer countries" }, { "start": 3155.53, "end": 3157.85, "text": " and says, okay, here we go." }, { "start": 3157.85, "end": 3163.81, "text": " This is what our country needs to restore the land, help with the water and all the problems" }, { "start": 3163.81, "end": 3165.29, "text": " you mentioned." }, { "start": 3165.29, "end": 3174.89, "text": " We pre-finance it and the farmers in our case here pay us back." }, { "start": 3174.89, "end": 3177.09, "text": " Is that a possibility?" }, { "start": 3177.09, "end": 3179.97, "text": " Yes, it is." }, { "start": 3179.97, "end": 3189.61, "text": " But in my view, what governments ought to do first and foremost is to have adapted regulations." }, { "start": 3189.61, "end": 3190.97, "text": " Governments are here." }, { "start": 3190.97, "end": 3196.01, "text": " The most important function of a government is regulation." }, { "start": 3196.01, "end": 3200.85, "text": " Governments are not rich, they don't have large budgets." }, { "start": 3200.85, "end": 3207.93, "text": " And they only have budgets as far as they can take taxes from you and myself." }, { "start": 3207.93, "end": 3215.69, "text": " But the powerful tool they have is regulation that can attract more investments both from" }, { "start": 3215.69, "end": 3220.77, "text": " the private sector, domestic private sector, or regional or even global." }, { "start": 3220.77, "end": 3227.49, "text": " You see, most of the poorest countries in the world have the largest assets in terms" }, { "start": 3227.49, "end": 3237.53, "text": " of land, minerals, rare earth, and all the technology that is absolutely necessary to" }, { "start": 3237.53, "end": 3243.89, "text": " get to the new net zero technologies that we are talking about." }, { "start": 3243.89, "end": 3252.53, "text": " So the question is how much good governance can be promoted there and how much interference" }, { "start": 3252.53, "end": 3260.93, "text": " would be able to reduce interference to have these countries promote peace and security" }, { "start": 3260.93, "end": 3267.45, "text": " in order to restore, to have a good value on their resources and to benefit from these" }, { "start": 3267.45, "end": 3268.45, "text": " resources." }, { "start": 3268.45, "end": 3278.25, "text": " They have a lot of assets, but these are not used properly right now to generate sustainable" }, { "start": 3278.25, "end": 3281.25, "text": " development, peace and security." }, { "start": 3281.25, "end": 3287.25, "text": " So there is another angle to that point that you are raising." }, { "start": 3287.25, "end": 3295.21, "text": " Since there is no peace and security, which may be really essentially due to extraction" }, { "start": 3295.21, "end": 3308.93, "text": " and appetite from others, therefore the rate of investments is very high and there are" }, { "start": 3308.93, "end": 3312.89, "text": " no incentives for companies to come and invest." }, { "start": 3312.89, "end": 3314.69, "text": " Let me give you an example." }, { "start": 3314.69, "end": 3323.05, "text": " How come that with all the renewable energy that we have in Africa, only 2% of investments" }, { "start": 3323.05, "end": 3326.01, "text": " on renewable energy in the world are coming to Africa?" }, { "start": 3326.01, "end": 3327.01, "text": " What is that?" }, { "start": 3327.01, "end": 3328.01, "text": " What is that?" }, { "start": 3328.01, "end": 3338.13, "text": " Yes, and without energy, there is no land restoration." }, { "start": 3338.13, "end": 3341.85, "text": " There is no food security." }, { "start": 3341.85, "end": 3345.17, "text": " So energy is absolutely fascinating." }, { "start": 3345.17, "end": 3349.41, "text": " So why is it that investments are not coming to this continent?" }, { "start": 3349.41, "end": 3357.85, "text": " Because essentially people do their math and they feel like it's risky to invest there." }, { "start": 3357.85, "end": 3362.29, "text": " Since it is risky, I will have a higher rate of the loan, so the dollar is much higher" }, { "start": 3362.29, "end": 3368.33, "text": " in Africa than it is in Europe, for example, for investments in renewables." }, { "start": 3368.33, "end": 3375.17, "text": " So it is therefore they have more incentives and they feel more secure in investing in renewables" }, { "start": 3375.17, "end": 3381.05, "text": " in Europe, even though there is no much sum in some parts of the world in some seasons." }, { "start": 3381.05, "end": 3387.37, "text": " So it is therefore an issue that should be looked at more globally, more coherently," }, { "start": 3387.37, "end": 3389.85, "text": " in a more cooperative way." }, { "start": 3389.85, "end": 3398.65, "text": " And it may be idealistic, an approach, or maybe naive, but I am absolutely convinced" }, { "start": 3398.65, "end": 3404.85, "text": " that if everybody understands that there will be no peace and security in Europe or the" }, { "start": 3404.85, "end": 3410.85, "text": " United States unless there is peace in the Middle East or Africa and there will be no" }, { "start": 3410.85, "end": 3417.49, "text": " peace in no way unless there is peace in DRC, then it will be possible maybe to achieve" }, { "start": 3417.49, "end": 3419.37, "text": " something in common." }, { "start": 3419.37, "end": 3434.01, "text": " I would like to round up our discussions now with, if you could state an urgent message" }, { "start": 3434.01, "end": 3438.45, "text": " here to world leaders, what would it be?" }, { "start": 3438.45, "end": 3446.85, "text": " When world leaders meet to consider the state of the planet, regardless of the cup they" }, { "start": 3446.85, "end": 3452.81, "text": " attend, regardless of the label that is attributed to that cup, they should really look at the" }, { "start": 3452.81, "end": 3455.21, "text": " planet as a whole." }, { "start": 3455.21, "end": 3463.37, "text": " And the nine planetary boundaries that have been identified by scientists and see that" }, { "start": 3463.37, "end": 3471.53, "text": " understand that you cannot just address one boundary at the expense of the others." }, { "start": 3471.53, "end": 3474.65, "text": " Therefore it is important to have a more coherent approach." }, { "start": 3474.65, "end": 3484.81, "text": " It doesn't help that a doctor tries to treat a patient for disease while inducing other" }, { "start": 3484.81, "end": 3486.31, "text": " diseases." }, { "start": 3486.31, "end": 3492.69, "text": " So it is important that we look at the body as a whole and see where we can actually treat" }, { "start": 3492.69, "end": 3498.21, "text": " the body in a consistent and coherent manner." }, { "start": 3498.21, "end": 3508.81, "text": " I think that was a very clear message and I thank you for this really incredible discussions." }, { "start": 3508.81, "end": 3514.93, "text": " I think your insights highlight the urgency and the solutions we need to focus on." }, { "start": 3514.93, "end": 3522.33, "text": " We will be following the UNCCD's work closely, I certainly will." }, { "start": 3522.33, "end": 3529.41, "text": " And to our listeners I can say this is a global challenge that affects us all as we have heard" }, { "start": 3529.41, "end": 3530.41, "text": " today." }, { "start": 3530.41, "end": 3534.97, "text": " Get involved, stay informed and take action where you can." }, { "start": 3534.97, "end": 3541.53, "text": " Thank you very much Ibrahim Schor for your knowledge that you shared with us today and" }, { "start": 3541.53, "end": 3545.09, "text": " all the best and lots of energy." }, { "start": 3545.09, "end": 3546.09, "text": " Thank you very much Seville." }, { "start": 3546.09, "end": 3548.21, "text": " So it was good talking to you." }, { "start": 3548.21, "end": 3554.09, "text": " You've been listening to a special English edition of Degorsa Neustadt, a German podcast" }, { "start": 3554.09, "end": 3559.73, "text": " series by Zabilla Baden in which she talks to pioneering leaders who are committed to" }, { "start": 3559.73, "end": 3563.45, "text": " making our world smarter, greener and fairer." }, { "start": 3563.45, "end": 3572.01, "text": " For more information please visit www.zabillabaden.com and the official site of the World Economic" }, { "start": 3572.01, "end": 3572.77, "text": " Forum." }, { "start": 3572.77, "end": 3575.19, "text": " (soft music)" }, { "start": 3575.19, "end": 3577.77, "text": " (gentle music)" }, { "start": 3577.77, "end": 3579.83, "text": " you" } ]