[
  {
    "start": 0.0,
    "end": 5.04,
    "text": " The day after we left the European Union, or we voted to leave the European Union,"
  },
  {
    "start": 5.04,
    "end": 9.92,
    "text": " the most googled question in the United Kingdom was, \"What is the European Union?\""
  },
  {
    "start": 9.92,
    "end": 10.88,
    "text": " \"You're joking.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 10.88,
    "end": 14.72,
    "text": " \"I'm not. I'm not. So that's a failure of politics, it's a failure of media,"
  },
  {
    "start": 14.72,
    "end": 15.92,
    "text": " and it's a failure of education.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 15.92,
    "end": 23.2,
    "text": " Welcome to the special English edition of Degorsa Neustadt, a German podcast series by"
  },
  {
    "start": 23.2,
    "end": 28.8,
    "text": " Zabilla Bar, in which she talks to pioneering leaders who, inspired by the World Economic"
  },
  {
    "start": 28.8,
    "end": 35.84,
    "text": " Forum's great reset initiative, create revolutionary projects that actually do make our world smarter,"
  },
  {
    "start": 35.84,
    "end": 37.28,
    "text": " greener and fairer."
  },
  {
    "start": 37.28,
    "end": 47.12,
    "text": " I'm delighted to welcome Alastair Campbell as my guest today. Throughout his remarkable career,"
  },
  {
    "start": 47.12,
    "end": 54.32,
    "text": " he has redefined the art of communication. From his tenure as the political editor of the Daily"
  },
  {
    "start": 54.32,
    "end": 60.16,
    "text": " Mirror to his pivotal role as Tony Blair's director of communications and strategy,"
  },
  {
    "start": 60.16,
    "end": 68.96,
    "text": " he has pushed Labour with vigorous campaigns to three victories. With 19 books under his belt,"
  },
  {
    "start": 68.96,
    "end": 75.68,
    "text": " most of them bestsellers, covering diverse topics from politics to mental health,"
  },
  {
    "start": 75.68,
    "end": 82.48,
    "text": " Alastair continues to make a profound impact. His latest book, But What Can I Do?"
  },
  {
    "start": 82.48,
    "end": 89.28,
    "text": " A Sunday Times bestseller right from the start, is an analysis of what has gone wrong with politics"
  },
  {
    "start": 89.28,
    "end": 97.2,
    "text": " and ideas about how to put it right. In the spring of 2022, he launched a podcast,"
  },
  {
    "start": 97.2,
    "end": 104.72,
    "text": " The Rest Is Politics, with former Tory cabinet minister Rory Stewart, and the two talked themselves"
  },
  {
    "start": 104.72,
    "end": 112.96,
    "text": " into people's heads and hearts with pure politics. Today, each episode resonates with a"
  },
  {
    "start": 112.96,
    "end": 120.56,
    "text": " million listeners worldwide. On top of the UK shards, Alastair and Rory managed to regain"
  },
  {
    "start": 120.56,
    "end": 128.64,
    "text": " control of the political debate in the UK. So much so that when I googled The Rest Is Politics,"
  },
  {
    "start": 128.64,
    "end": 137.28,
    "text": " it showed 1 billion and 660 million results. Well, Alastair, a very warm welcome to you,"
  },
  {
    "start": 137.28,
    "end": 142.48,
    "text": " and let's dive straight into it. Thank you."
  },
  {
    "start": 142.48,
    "end": 152.8,
    "text": " It takes you today, in the age of 66, a couple of hours to sell out prestigious venues like"
  },
  {
    "start": 152.8,
    "end": 161.84,
    "text": " The Royal Albert Hall or the O2 Arena. How aware are you that you set the political tone in your"
  },
  {
    "start": 161.84,
    "end": 171.28,
    "text": " country? Well, I think there are two separate things there. One is that clearly the podcast"
  },
  {
    "start": 171.28,
    "end": 178.16,
    "text": " has become very, very popular, with, as you say, lots of listeners and lots of people who don't"
  },
  {
    "start": 178.16,
    "end": 184.88,
    "text": " necessarily follow politics very closely outside the podcast. So that's interesting and new, I"
  },
  {
    "start": 184.88,
    "end": 190.08,
    "text": " guess. I know you're interested in pioneers, and I think that's been quite pioneering."
  },
  {
    "start": 190.08,
    "end": 196.72,
    "text": " I hope it's changing the political debate more profoundly, but I think it's too early to tell."
  },
  {
    "start": 196.72,
    "end": 201.36,
    "text": " I mean, it's true that we have a lot of listeners, it's true that we have a lot of interest inside"
  },
  {
    "start": 201.36,
    "end": 208.08,
    "text": " the political debate, but there is still a lot of cynicism, there is still a lot of negative"
  },
  {
    "start": 208.08,
    "end": 213.36,
    "text": " negativity about politics. So I think it's too early to tell whether we're actually moving the"
  },
  {
    "start": 213.36,
    "end": 221.76,
    "text": " dial in a sustained way. I think that remains to be seen. And what do you think you are doing"
  },
  {
    "start": 221.76,
    "end": 232.48,
    "text": " differently today from mainstream media? I think the reason why it's been successful"
  },
  {
    "start": 232.48,
    "end": 241.04,
    "text": " is because we're both of politics, but we're not necessarily in politics in the same way as most"
  },
  {
    "start": 241.04,
    "end": 246.24,
    "text": " politicians are. Neither of us are standing for election, neither of us are actually at the moment"
  },
  {
    "start": 246.24,
    "end": 255.76,
    "text": " members of parties. We are able to give accounts of our experience, very different experiences"
  },
  {
    "start": 255.76,
    "end": 261.76,
    "text": " in politics, but also give a slightly outside perspective. And then I think the second thing"
  },
  {
    "start": 261.76,
    "end": 268.72,
    "text": " is that we're both of the media, but not in the media. And I think that one of the reasons the"
  },
  {
    "start": 268.72,
    "end": 274.4,
    "text": " podcast is getting so many listeners is because people are fascinated by politics, but they don't"
  },
  {
    "start": 274.4,
    "end": 280.88,
    "text": " like what the current generation of politicians offers them, or the current generation of media."
  },
  {
    "start": 280.88,
    "end": 284.48,
    "text": " So they're looking for something different, and I think they think we're a bit different."
  },
  {
    "start": 284.48,
    "end": 293.6,
    "text": " Hmm. And when I look into your profile, I see it takes me 10 seconds, and I realize that you got"
  },
  {
    "start": 293.6,
    "end": 299.84,
    "text": " one million listeners, clearly, but you also got one million followers on X. And I was thinking,"
  },
  {
    "start": 299.84,
    "end": 310.96,
    "text": " in, you're there in your own right, so you're not there as for Downing Street or for Tony Blair"
  },
  {
    "start": 310.96,
    "end": 320.32,
    "text": " or for Labour Party, it is you. So they tune in to listen to you. Yeah, but that's based,"
  },
  {
    "start": 320.32,
    "end": 326.08,
    "text": " I mean, you've got to remember, I've been around as a journalist for a long time, and then in a"
  },
  {
    "start": 326.08,
    "end": 333.52,
    "text": " fairly high profile position. So I think it's a combination and a continuation, but it's also"
  },
  {
    "start": 334.64,
    "end": 342.88,
    "text": " with different and new layers. I remember when I left, so it's 21 years since I left Downing"
  },
  {
    "start": 342.88,
    "end": 350.16,
    "text": " Street full time. But I've always been in and out of the Labour scene ever since. I went back to help"
  },
  {
    "start": 350.16,
    "end": 357.44,
    "text": " Tony Blair win again in 2005. I've helped several Labour leaders. I've worked on campaigns in"
  },
  {
    "start": 357.44,
    "end": 362.48,
    "text": " different parts of the world, but I've done it in a completely different way. And I think the other"
  },
  {
    "start": 362.48,
    "end": 366.0,
    "text": " thing is that I've done other things. You mentioned a lot of the books and you mentioned"
  },
  {
    "start": 366.0,
    "end": 373.12,
    "text": " mental health. I think I was probably one of the first high profile people in the UK to talk about"
  },
  {
    "start": 373.12,
    "end": 380.8,
    "text": " mental health in a way that I think did move the dial on the debate. I think also I've made films."
  },
  {
    "start": 380.8,
    "end": 387.2,
    "text": " I've done things differently, but I've never lost the sense of that past political profile."
  },
  {
    "start": 388.24,
    "end": 396.48,
    "text": " I think I've built on it and developed on it. I'm very conscious of the fact that if I drop dead"
  },
  {
    "start": 396.48,
    "end": 402.48,
    "text": " today, the obituaries will have the words Tony Blair in the introductions. I mean, they will,"
  },
  {
    "start": 402.48,
    "end": 408.8,
    "text": " because that's how I've... So even though I'm not... That's not what I do. It's part of who I am."
  },
  {
    "start": 408.8,
    "end": 415.68,
    "text": " And I think therefore that was quite a solid foundation. But also I think people have seen"
  },
  {
    "start": 415.68,
    "end": 426.24,
    "text": " that it's possible to go through a very tough experience, which I did, go through a lot of"
  },
  {
    "start": 426.24,
    "end": 434.08,
    "text": " attack, a lot of abuse, a lot of hatred, and come out smiling. And I think that people have a certain"
  },
  {
    "start": 434.08,
    "end": 439.92,
    "text": " regard for that. I know you've read the book and thank you for your very kind comments that you"
  },
  {
    "start": 439.92,
    "end": 447.52,
    "text": " wrote to me. You may remember the word that I invented, per civilliance. That I think people"
  },
  {
    "start": 447.52,
    "end": 453.52,
    "text": " respect that quality in people, that you just keep going, you learn from mistakes, you learn from set"
  },
  {
    "start": 453.52,
    "end": 459.28,
    "text": " backs, and you keep going. And that's kind of what I try to do. We have a lot of programs. I mean,"
  },
  {
    "start": 459.28,
    "end": 469.04,
    "text": " especially in Britain from Channel 4 to the BBC, they all do their bit. But certainly what I was"
  },
  {
    "start": 469.04,
    "end": 478.56,
    "text": " missing for a very, very long time, probably even before Brexit, was that somebody takes on a broader"
  },
  {
    "start": 478.56,
    "end": 489.12,
    "text": " context, a more holistic approach to the world's problems. Was that your aim or was it something"
  },
  {
    "start": 489.12,
    "end": 498.48,
    "text": " you developed with Tori? Sorry. Tori Rory. Yeah. It's interesting how... I'd say"
  },
  {
    "start": 498.48,
    "end": 507.36,
    "text": " developed, because when the podcast started, we really were just almost thrown together,"
  },
  {
    "start": 507.36,
    "end": 512.0,
    "text": " because what happened was the people who produced the Restless History, which is another very"
  },
  {
    "start": 512.0,
    "end": 516.72,
    "text": " successful podcast, they asked me if I would do a podcast called The Restless Politics, but with"
  },
  {
    "start": 516.72,
    "end": 524.72,
    "text": " somebody of different politics to mind, preferably a Tori. Now, I've spent most of my career trying to"
  },
  {
    "start": 525.6,
    "end": 530.16,
    "text": " demolish the Tori Party, so I can't pretend that I don't have many Tori friends."
  },
  {
    "start": 530.16,
    "end": 540.88,
    "text": " But I sort of thought about it, and then I actually did an Instagram post and a Twitter video,"
  },
  {
    "start": 540.88,
    "end": 546.24,
    "text": " and I said to my followers, \"If I did a podcast with a Tori, who do you think you should be?\""
  },
  {
    "start": 546.24,
    "end": 551.52,
    "text": " And a lot of people said Rory Stewart, so I phoned him up. I didn't know him very well. I think we'd"
  },
  {
    "start": 551.52,
    "end": 555.92,
    "text": " only have had one conversation before, and I said, \"What do you think?\" And he was up for it."
  },
  {
    "start": 555.92,
    "end": 562.48,
    "text": " So, but we basically decided just to give it a go and see if the concept worked and see if the"
  },
  {
    "start": 562.48,
    "end": 570.24,
    "text": " chemistry worked. And then the motto of disagreeing agreeably, that became a very important part of"
  },
  {
    "start": 570.24,
    "end": 577.44,
    "text": " it. And then I think we realized that whilst most of our listeners will be in the UK,"
  },
  {
    "start": 578.4,
    "end": 583.44,
    "text": " we started to develop quite a lot of listeners abroad, and also we started to realize that a"
  },
  {
    "start": 583.44,
    "end": 590.24,
    "text": " lot of our listeners in the UK enjoyed the fact that we didn't just talk about UK politics, which"
  },
  {
    "start": 590.24,
    "end": 595.36,
    "text": " a lot of our media, yes, they'll talk about Trump, Biden, and they'll occasionally talk like today,"
  },
  {
    "start": 595.36,
    "end": 601.52,
    "text": " they're full of Putin election. But generally, we have a very insular, inward-looking media,"
  },
  {
    "start": 601.52,
    "end": 608.16,
    "text": " and they like the fact that last week we had a long discussion about the war in Sudan, which"
  },
  {
    "start": 608.16,
    "end": 611.6,
    "text": " we had so many people say, \"My God, we didn't even know there was a war in Sudan.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 611.6,
    "end": 618.0,
    "text": " Because they, and likewise, even though we've left the European Union, which as you know,"
  },
  {
    "start": 618.0,
    "end": 622.72,
    "text": " I think is an absolute disaster, but we still talk about Europe, we still talk about politics in"
  },
  {
    "start": 622.72,
    "end": 629.44,
    "text": " Europe, we still talk about Asia, we talk about Africa. And I think that people like that sense"
  },
  {
    "start": 629.44,
    "end": 637.52,
    "text": " of us trying to see beyond the UK, and also to give people a sense of how Britain's role in"
  },
  {
    "start": 637.52,
    "end": 644.32,
    "text": " the world is changing, and how other countries are having to compete and adapt to a lot of the"
  },
  {
    "start": 644.32,
    "end": 649.76,
    "text": " same pressures that are putting our politics under pressure. I find it because you mentioned that"
  },
  {
    "start": 649.76,
    "end": 657.36,
    "text": " a lot of people didn't know there was even a war in Sudan. Same with Yemen, probably. Absolutely."
  },
  {
    "start": 657.36,
    "end": 664.4,
    "text": " I mean, you know, we've talked a lot, for example, about these, the succession of military coups"
  },
  {
    "start": 664.4,
    "end": 669.36,
    "text": " across Africa. And every time we talk about them, we get people saying, \"Oh, we never"
  },
  {
    "start": 669.36,
    "end": 676.16,
    "text": " had anything about that.\" Now, I think European media, particularly French, obviously, with the"
  },
  {
    "start": 676.16,
    "end": 682.08,
    "text": " Francophone links to Africa, but I, you know, whenever I'm in Germany and I'm reading German"
  },
  {
    "start": 682.08,
    "end": 691.12,
    "text": " media, I do think you still have a more internationalist view of the world, not uniform and not universal."
  },
  {
    "start": 691.68,
    "end": 697.92,
    "text": " But I think that we do tend to be very, very inward looking. And also, I think the other thing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 697.92,
    "end": 704.08,
    "text": " I think this is a problem with a lot of media around the world, is that when there's one major"
  },
  {
    "start": 704.08,
    "end": 710.48,
    "text": " international event, it's almost like that's all they can cope with. So, like, you know, when it was"
  },
  {
    "start": 710.48,
    "end": 715.36,
    "text": " Ukraine, the start of the Ukraine war, everybody talked about Ukraine, Israel Gaza, everybody"
  },
  {
    "start": 715.36,
    "end": 720.96,
    "text": " talked about Israel Gaza, you know, Russian elections, everybody talks about that, Trump,"
  },
  {
    "start": 720.96,
    "end": 725.36,
    "text": " everybody talks about that. It's almost like there's a hierarchy and you can't really do"
  },
  {
    "start": 725.36,
    "end": 731.68,
    "text": " more than one or two. And we try to say to each other every week, let's focus on something that"
  },
  {
    "start": 731.68,
    "end": 737.12,
    "text": " we think is important, but which isn't getting much attention. We don't do it as reporters."
  },
  {
    "start": 737.12,
    "end": 742.08,
    "text": " We're not reporters. I mean, we don't, we often talk about places that we go to, but we often"
  },
  {
    "start": 742.08,
    "end": 747.2,
    "text": " talk about places that we don't. And I'm not pretending that if we talk about the Russian"
  },
  {
    "start": 747.76,
    "end": 753.68,
    "text": " elections, for example, that you're going to get as much depth as you would listening to say,"
  },
  {
    "start": 753.68,
    "end": 761.84,
    "text": " Steve Rosenberg from the BBC or the correspondent of Der Spiegel, whatever it might be, who are there."
  },
  {
    "start": 761.84,
    "end": 768.24,
    "text": " But I think what you are getting is something that's able to go in whichever direction we decide."
  },
  {
    "start": 768.24,
    "end": 770.56,
    "text": " There's no formula that says what we have to talk about."
  },
  {
    "start": 771.2,
    "end": 778.56,
    "text": " And that is exactly the point. Yes, I agree with you that media and politics jump on the"
  },
  {
    "start": 778.56,
    "end": 786.64,
    "text": " particular event. But at the same time, for the full 24 hours a day,"
  },
  {
    "start": 786.64,
    "end": 795.6,
    "text": " their approach is extremely narrow and narrow-minded."
  },
  {
    "start": 797.6,
    "end": 803.76,
    "text": " Well, you know what? We've mentioned several times in recent weeks, because when you're sitting,"
  },
  {
    "start": 803.76,
    "end": 808.24,
    "text": " watching television, for example, so I don't watch much TV. I watch a lot of sport."
  },
  {
    "start": 808.24,
    "end": 814.32,
    "text": " And then sometimes I'll just go into the news channels and I'll kind of channel hop. And"
  },
  {
    "start": 814.32,
    "end": 820.8,
    "text": " occasionally you come across something really interesting. But I have found in recent months"
  },
  {
    "start": 820.8,
    "end": 825.44,
    "text": " that some of the most interesting stuff I've come across has been on Al Jazeera."
  },
  {
    "start": 826.8,
    "end": 833.2,
    "text": " And I think it's because, yes, they've got a worldview for sure. You know, you know,"
  },
  {
    "start": 833.2,
    "end": 838.56,
    "text": " you're watching it from a certain perspective. But at the same time, they're covering"
  },
  {
    "start": 838.56,
    "end": 846.16,
    "text": " international stories and situations, which you don't necessarily... Well, for example,"
  },
  {
    "start": 846.16,
    "end": 850.56,
    "text": " I mentioned Sudan. Yesterday when I checked in on Al Jazeera, there was a huge report"
  },
  {
    "start": 851.36,
    "end": 858.56,
    "text": " about people who were fleeing Sudan for South Sudan. They were following families and they were"
  },
  {
    "start": 858.56,
    "end": 866.48,
    "text": " interviewing families as they were on the move. And I could be wrong, but I just haven't seen that"
  },
  {
    "start": 866.48,
    "end": 874.24,
    "text": " on the BBC. I just haven't seen it. And that's not to criticise the BBC, and that they get enough"
  },
  {
    "start": 874.24,
    "end": 883.12,
    "text": " flak as it is. But my point is, I think they think they're playing to an agenda and also to a formula."
  },
  {
    "start": 883.12,
    "end": 889.44,
    "text": " I find that so much of when I'm doing that channel hopping, I kind of know as soon as I can see the"
  },
  {
    "start": 889.44,
    "end": 893.6,
    "text": " headline, I know what they're going to say, I know how they're going to report it. And it's just not"
  },
  {
    "start": 893.6,
    "end": 900.08,
    "text": " very fresh. And I think the other thing that we do that is people often ask, you know, well,"
  },
  {
    "start": 900.08,
    "end": 904.72,
    "text": " how much do you plan it? How much do you prepare it? We never talk about what we're going to say."
  },
  {
    "start": 904.72,
    "end": 912.32,
    "text": " We never say, well, let's talk about Israel Gaza. And you focus on this and I focus on that. We"
  },
  {
    "start": 912.32,
    "end": 917.2,
    "text": " never, ever do that. We basically just say, right, we haven't done Israel Gaza for a few weeks. Let's"
  },
  {
    "start": 917.2,
    "end": 925.04,
    "text": " talk about that. Maybe use as the peg the fact that Biden said X about Netanyahu or Schumer said"
  },
  {
    "start": 925.04,
    "end": 929.76,
    "text": " X about Israel, whatever it might be, or a particular incident, that becomes the starting"
  },
  {
    "start": 929.76,
    "end": 938.16,
    "text": " point. But then we genuinely try to have a conversation. At the moment, when I listen"
  },
  {
    "start": 938.16,
    "end": 945.2,
    "text": " to the rest's politics and leading, of course, especially when Roy and you talk about Gaza,"
  },
  {
    "start": 945.2,
    "end": 953.12,
    "text": " I would love you to give me an even bigger picture and add another layer, meaning"
  },
  {
    "start": 954.4,
    "end": 962.72,
    "text": " to hear the perspective of major players of the Middle East, or Asia as well and South America."
  },
  {
    "start": 962.72,
    "end": 973.52,
    "text": " Because at the moment, I feel I really lack information outside the European and US. And"
  },
  {
    "start": 973.52,
    "end": 985.28,
    "text": " I'm saying that because I listened to a speech given by Queen Rania of Jordan that gave me"
  },
  {
    "start": 985.28,
    "end": 998.96,
    "text": " actually another picture of the whole situation. So how careful do you look at an issue like Gaza"
  },
  {
    "start": 999.68,
    "end": 1009.84,
    "text": " or the Ukraine? Well, as I said earlier, we're not the BBC, we're not ARD, we're not a"
  },
  {
    "start": 1009.84,
    "end": 1018.0,
    "text": " broadcast station. We're just two people who talk about politics every week. But so, for example,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1018.0,
    "end": 1025.44,
    "text": " with Israel Gaza, when it happened, we did a sort of immediate podcast where we kind of just"
  },
  {
    "start": 1025.44,
    "end": 1029.44,
    "text": " said what we're thinking and reacting and so forth. But even as that discussion took place,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1029.44,
    "end": 1036.88,
    "text": " we were developing the idea that we saw our role within it, and so far as we felt we had one,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1036.88,
    "end": 1043.12,
    "text": " was to try to give a broader context, try to explain a bit of the history, try to explain a bit"
  },
  {
    "start": 1043.12,
    "end": 1051.68,
    "text": " of the background, try to explain specifically to younger people, some of the stuff of the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1051.68,
    "end": 1058.8,
    "text": " even recent past. I was amazed recently, Rory Stewart, who teaches at American universities,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1058.8,
    "end": 1064.4,
    "text": " you know, and he sent me a message, you know the famous picture of Bill Clinton with Arafat"
  },
  {
    "start": 1064.4,
    "end": 1071.68,
    "text": " and Rabin at the White House. He said that when he was with his students, and these are students"
  },
  {
    "start": 1071.68,
    "end": 1078.16,
    "text": " who are studying this stuff, everybody recognised Clinton, about 10% recognised Arafat and about"
  },
  {
    "start": 1078.16,
    "end": 1084.88,
    "text": " hardly anybody could name Rabin. Now that's students. So let alone the general public who"
  },
  {
    "start": 1084.88,
    "end": 1089.6,
    "text": " can be forgiven for thinking, well, I don't know any, so we tried to do that a bit of the history."
  },
  {
    "start": 1089.6,
    "end": 1096.96,
    "text": " We then did invite some guests, we had, we invited the Palestinian ambassador to give his"
  },
  {
    "start": 1096.96,
    "end": 1103.68,
    "text": " personal story, but also his assessment. But in doing so, I had a long chat with him beforehand"
  },
  {
    "start": 1103.68,
    "end": 1110.16,
    "text": " and said, look, this will not work if it just becomes you propagandising on behalf of"
  },
  {
    "start": 1110.16,
    "end": 1114.24,
    "text": " one side of the argument. And I actually think if you listen to that interview,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1114.24,
    "end": 1120.32,
    "text": " he understood that he understood this was a broader opportunity. Of course, he was expressing"
  },
  {
    "start": 1120.32,
    "end": 1125.68,
    "text": " his views, his assessment, his opinions, his history, if you like, but he but I think we"
  },
  {
    "start": 1125.68,
    "end": 1132.88,
    "text": " fitted it within that broader sense. We then we did a very long interview with Yuval Noah Harari,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1132.88,
    "end": 1139.28,
    "text": " who's somebody who's, I think, well informed, well respected. And he was able again, I think,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1139.28,
    "end": 1146.72,
    "text": " to feed that sense of an educative piece. Well, we've not done. So for example, we've,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1146.72,
    "end": 1151.36,
    "text": " as you know, we do the main podcast and a Q&A and we also do an interview, one interview per week."
  },
  {
    "start": 1151.36,
    "end": 1157.04,
    "text": " We've basically said to, because we interviewed the Palestinian ambassador, the Israeli"
  },
  {
    "start": 1157.04,
    "end": 1162.08,
    "text": " government have said, well, would you like to interview in Israel? And we said, yes,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1163.04,
    "end": 1169.2,
    "text": " definitely. And obviously, if it was somebody very senior like Netanyahu, or a member of the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1169.2,
    "end": 1175.76,
    "text": " war cabinet, absolutely. But what we wouldn't do was just take somebody who we know is, if you like,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1175.76,
    "end": 1185.92,
    "text": " a professional communicator. And so we are night wise on on Russia, Ukraine, I heard a guy on the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1185.92,
    "end": 1192.48,
    "text": " radio on the BBC this morning, who was there to put the Russian perspective on the Putin election"
  },
  {
    "start": 1192.48,
    "end": 1199.92,
    "text": " win. I don't think we would take something like that because it was so clearly just, you know,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1199.92,
    "end": 1204.88,
    "text": " I'm not criticizing the BBC for this, they had to get somebody on who was a sort of pro-putin voice."
  },
  {
    "start": 1204.88,
    "end": 1212.24,
    "text": " But it was just a straightforward piece of propaganda. So I think we'd be would be, would we,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1212.24,
    "end": 1221.04,
    "text": " we interviewed Marina Litvinenko a while back. Now, obviously, very, very critical of the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1221.04,
    "end": 1225.6,
    "text": " Putin regime, but I think a legitimate voice, would we interview Navalny's widow? Definitely."
  },
  {
    "start": 1225.6,
    "end": 1231.84,
    "text": " But it would, it would, it would have to be anything that we do by way of interviews."
  },
  {
    "start": 1231.84,
    "end": 1236.96,
    "text": " So this, this morning, we've released an interview with Albin Korti, the Prime Minister of Kosovo."
  },
  {
    "start": 1238.4,
    "end": 1247.12,
    "text": " Now, he says some very, very critical things about the Serbs. Would we welcome a response from the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1247.12,
    "end": 1251.68,
    "text": " Serbs? Yes, but it would have to be somebody very, very senior. And it would have to be somebody who"
  },
  {
    "start": 1251.68,
    "end": 1257.2,
    "text": " was not just going to come on and read outlines to take. By the way, I must tell you, my two,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1257.2,
    "end": 1263.12,
    "text": " my two top, the two names I really, really, really want onto this podcast are both German."
  },
  {
    "start": 1264.24,
    "end": 1272.16,
    "text": " Yeah. And I'm not in agreement here with you. I know at least one. And I think I cannot believe"
  },
  {
    "start": 1272.16,
    "end": 1280.64,
    "text": " it that he, anyway, yes. Jürgen Klopp. One is Merkel, right? Yeah. And the other, yeah, Klopp,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1280.64,
    "end": 1286.24,
    "text": " Klopp is right. Yes. Was Klopp, I agree. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. But I want, yeah. Okay. Since you"
  },
  {
    "start": 1286.24,
    "end": 1292.56,
    "text": " mentioned it, why Angela Merkel? Because I think she, I think she's just been such a"
  },
  {
    "start": 1292.56,
    "end": 1300.48,
    "text": " significant figure in European history in recent years. I think, and I think she's complicated."
  },
  {
    "start": 1300.48,
    "end": 1304.96,
    "text": " And I think even though she's been incredibly high profile for a long time, I think there's,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1304.96,
    "end": 1310.0,
    "text": " I think she's still very, quite enigmatic. And I think there's quite a lot to unpick. And I think"
  },
  {
    "start": 1310.0,
    "end": 1318.96,
    "text": " that the format that we have would hopefully lend itself to that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll see."
  },
  {
    "start": 1318.96,
    "end": 1324.48,
    "text": " You will be successful because I don't think she, she's doing anything."
  },
  {
    "start": 1324.48,
    "end": 1329.28,
    "text": " No, but she's writing a book. Who knows when the book comes out, she might decide, you know,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1329.28,
    "end": 1335.2,
    "text": " that could be quite interesting. Also, I think because she's always, as a German chancellor,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1335.2,
    "end": 1339.6,
    "text": " always felt that she should express herself in German. I think people will be surprised about"
  },
  {
    "start": 1339.6,
    "end": 1348.08,
    "text": " how, how well she speaks English and so forth. I accompanied her a couple of times to Downing"
  },
  {
    "start": 1348.08,
    "end": 1356.08,
    "text": " Street when I was in London because I worked for the embassy. Yeah. Yeah. Well, different times."
  },
  {
    "start": 1356.08,
    "end": 1365.28,
    "text": " Yes. But let's go back to, to Britain. And let's go back to what we can do there and your book. But"
  },
  {
    "start": 1366.16,
    "end": 1372.24,
    "text": " what can I do? Because you analyze Britain's problems and provide readers with basically a"
  },
  {
    "start": 1372.24,
    "end": 1377.68,
    "text": " manual on how not to feel powerless. Can you elaborate on it a bit?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1377.68,
    "end": 1384.16,
    "text": " Yeah. I mean, the book's really in, in three parts. First is the analysis of where it's all gone"
  },
  {
    "start": 1384.16,
    "end": 1390.64,
    "text": " wrong, which I think is a lot to do with populism and polarization and the, the spread of post-truth"
  },
  {
    "start": 1390.64,
    "end": 1398.8,
    "text": " in politics, of which Trump is part of which Putin is a part of which Johnson and Brexit are part."
  },
  {
    "start": 1398.8,
    "end": 1405.6,
    "text": " And so that's a very bleak picture of where we've got to and just how dangerous and bad it is. I"
  },
  {
    "start": 1405.6,
    "end": 1411.76,
    "text": " think Trump coming, the possibility of Trump returning to office in America is a sign of just"
  },
  {
    "start": 1411.76,
    "end": 1418.72,
    "text": " how bad it is. The second part really is about how the pressures of politics and how you need to look"
  },
  {
    "start": 1418.72,
    "end": 1424.0,
    "text": " after yourself. And then essentially, the third part is saying, okay, if you're still with me,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1424.0,
    "end": 1430.0,
    "text": " if you, you're fine with how bad it is, you find how tough it is, but you still want to do it,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1430.0,
    "end": 1434.16,
    "text": " here's how. And of course, it depends on the person, it depends on how much time they have,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1434.16,
    "end": 1439.44,
    "text": " it depends on the level of their commitment. But essentially, I'm saying the answer to the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1439.44,
    "end": 1444.48,
    "text": " question, but what can I do? You do what you can. And that can go from anything to being,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1445.2,
    "end": 1450.16,
    "text": " you know, a volunteer on a campaign to actually deciding, you know, I'm going to run for office"
  },
  {
    "start": 1450.16,
    "end": 1457.68,
    "text": " and I'm going to try and get to the very top. And I try to give people a guide as to how that is"
  },
  {
    "start": 1457.68,
    "end": 1462.88,
    "text": " possible. Obviously, it depends again upon where you live, what sort of party you support,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1462.88,
    "end": 1468.72,
    "text": " whether actually you want to do what Macron did, you start your own. And so there's no simple,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1470.08,
    "end": 1476.08,
    "text": " there's no simple way of describing how to do politics, but essentially saying that if we don't"
  },
  {
    "start": 1476.08,
    "end": 1482.08,
    "text": " persuade the next generation to get properly engaged in politics, then I think democratic"
  },
  {
    "start": 1482.08,
    "end": 1488.16,
    "text": " politics itself is under threat. So essentially, it's alerting people to the danger, so as that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1488.16,
    "end": 1493.6,
    "text": " hopefully they can then get involved. And I must tell you, I had a wonderful email last week,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1493.6,
    "end": 1499.2,
    "text": " I've just written about this in my column in the New European, I got an email from a woman called"
  },
  {
    "start": 1499.2,
    "end": 1507.84,
    "text": " Janet, who said that she brought the book for her husband, a guy called Bob, who, and then of course,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1507.84,
    "end": 1513.84,
    "text": " this often happens when people buy books for somebody else, she read it first. And she said to"
  },
  {
    "start": 1513.84,
    "end": 1520.32,
    "text": " him, you've got to read this book, what he was through the he was he finished the book, at which"
  },
  {
    "start": 1520.32,
    "end": 1528.48,
    "text": " point in the area where he lives, a the Conservative Party councillor, you know, the local representative"
  },
  {
    "start": 1528.48,
    "end": 1535.28,
    "text": " of that area, resigned and discussed at what the Conservative Party has become, which meant"
  },
  {
    "start": 1535.28,
    "end": 1540.88,
    "text": " which meant there was a by election. And on the basis of reading the book, Bob decided to put his"
  },
  {
    "start": 1540.88,
    "end": 1550.08,
    "text": " hand up to stand for Labour. And he is now the first ever Labour councillor in that ward. How's"
  },
  {
    "start": 1550.08,
    "end": 1555.12,
    "text": " about that? That is really fantastic. It was really fantastic. I was very happy about that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1555.12,
    "end": 1563.04,
    "text": " Because, A, he not only felt animated, but he probably also had an idea of what to do, what are"
  },
  {
    "start": 1563.04,
    "end": 1568.96,
    "text": " the first steps? Yeah, yeah. And it was obviously and I've had lots of, you know, when the book came"
  },
  {
    "start": 1568.96,
    "end": 1576.0,
    "text": " out, I went to talk in lots of schools. And in fact, my next two books are similar books, but much"
  },
  {
    "start": 1576.0,
    "end": 1582.08,
    "text": " shorter aimed at schoolchildren. And, you know, when you go into schools, I regularly go into schools"
  },
  {
    "start": 1582.08,
    "end": 1587.6,
    "text": " and the first thing I say, sometimes I will say something like, you know, right, hands up anybody"
  },
  {
    "start": 1587.6,
    "end": 1593.2,
    "text": " who thinks they might ever be a politician, and nobody ever puts their hand up. Okay. And then,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1593.2,
    "end": 1598.4,
    "text": " if you spend a couple of hours with them explaining what it is, how interesting it can be, how much"
  },
  {
    "start": 1598.4,
    "end": 1603.36,
    "text": " fun it can be, how important it is, the amazing characters that you meet within it,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1603.36,
    "end": 1609.12,
    "text": " by the and most importantly, the change that you can make. And I give them examples of people who've"
  },
  {
    "start": 1609.12,
    "end": 1614.16,
    "text": " made change. And then by the end of it, you know, you get and you say the same question, anybody"
  },
  {
    "start": 1614.16,
    "end": 1618.08,
    "text": " here think they might be a politician and you'll get quite a lot will say, yeah, I might do that,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1618.08,
    "end": 1623.76,
    "text": " I might do that. So I think that's, I think the, you know, giving people the confidence to think"
  },
  {
    "start": 1623.76,
    "end": 1629.28,
    "text": " they can make a difference, I think it's half the battle. Yeah. Alistair, you say in your book,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1629.28,
    "end": 1636.64,
    "text": " because talking confidence, you say in your book, confidence goes hand in hand with public speaking."
  },
  {
    "start": 1638.72,
    "end": 1647.84,
    "text": " I saw it very long about it. And is that the very British approach?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1647.84,
    "end": 1658.56,
    "text": " No, I think it's, I think it I think, what does confidence mean? Confidence to me"
  },
  {
    "start": 1658.56,
    "end": 1667.84,
    "text": " is a feeling that you have that you can, you can achieve the things that you set out to achieve."
  },
  {
    "start": 1667.84,
    "end": 1674.72,
    "text": " And you can you can inspire yourself in a way to motivate yourself to, to think there's something"
  },
  {
    "start": 1674.72,
    "end": 1678.88,
    "text": " there that I think needs to be fixed and I'm going to go and fix it. Or there's something there that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1678.88,
    "end": 1683.28,
    "text": " needs to be achieved and I'm going to go and achieve it. And I think I mean, I think what I"
  },
  {
    "start": 1683.28,
    "end": 1692.56,
    "text": " think is particularly British, because we have this awful 7% private education, where people are,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1692.56,
    "end": 1697.2,
    "text": " in a sense, they're taught confidence, they're taught to believe that they're better, they're"
  },
  {
    "start": 1697.2,
    "end": 1701.6,
    "text": " taught to believe superiority. That's not the sort of confidence I'm talking about."
  },
  {
    "start": 1701.6,
    "end": 1708.08,
    "text": " But what I am talking about is that when I go into a lot of these, the schools in less privileged"
  },
  {
    "start": 1708.08,
    "end": 1714.08,
    "text": " areas, I think the one, the big difference between the kids that you meet who are at the rich people"
  },
  {
    "start": 1714.08,
    "end": 1719.2,
    "text": " schools and the kids you meet who are the poor people schools is actually confidence. It's"
  },
  {
    "start": 1719.2,
    "end": 1724.88,
    "text": " and it's a belief that their voice matters. And the reason why public speaking is so important,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1724.88,
    "end": 1729.12,
    "text": " by the way, I don't when I say public speaking, I don't just mean standing on a platform,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1729.12,
    "end": 1733.92,
    "text": " public speaking, I mean, out and about public speaking, I mean, how you engage with the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1733.92,
    "end": 1738.56,
    "text": " authorities, I mean, how you, how you communicate to people that you're trying to persuade to your"
  },
  {
    "start": 1738.56,
    "end": 1746.72,
    "text": " point of view. I guess maybe public speaking gives it a slightly misleading sense. I guess public"
  },
  {
    "start": 1746.72,
    "end": 1752.24,
    "text": " communication is what I mean. How do you communicate when you're out out of the house as it were?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1754.64,
    "end": 1761.2,
    "text": " Yeah, because I was, as you did probably as well, I watched Oppenheimer. And I saw it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1761.2,
    "end": 1769.44,
    "text": " He is not the public speaker full stop. So but I would call him very confident in"
  },
  {
    "start": 1769.44,
    "end": 1778.56,
    "text": " confident in his area of expertise. Yeah, yeah, but I'm talking. I'm talking here,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1778.56,
    "end": 1785.76,
    "text": " I suppose in the context of politics about I think to be an effective politician,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1785.76,
    "end": 1793.36,
    "text": " I think part of the armory is that you have to have an ability to, to promote and build and"
  },
  {
    "start": 1793.36,
    "end": 1800.24,
    "text": " put forward an argument in public. I think something like I think expertise is slightly"
  },
  {
    "start": 1800.24,
    "end": 1808.96,
    "text": " different thing. So somebody like Oppenheimer, or you, or I look at some of the, some of the people"
  },
  {
    "start": 1808.96,
    "end": 1814.88,
    "text": " in the tech world now, I mean, I would argue that somebody like Musk or Zuckerberg, they're not,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1814.88,
    "end": 1821.6,
    "text": " technically they're terrible communicators. Okay, they're terrible public speakers. But"
  },
  {
    "start": 1823.6,
    "end": 1829.84,
    "text": " their power as speakers comes from a bit like Oppenheimer, Oppenheimer comes from their"
  },
  {
    "start": 1829.84,
    "end": 1834.4,
    "text": " very, very special expertise in the field that they're engaged in. But I don't think,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1834.4,
    "end": 1840.4,
    "text": " I don't think either of them would be effective politicians. No, I agree with you. I agree with"
  },
  {
    "start": 1840.4,
    "end": 1847.76,
    "text": " you. And, and I was while you were talking, I was reminded of that you just said you write another"
  },
  {
    "start": 1847.76,
    "end": 1858.32,
    "text": " two books, right? And just going through your profile alone is, I mean, writing 19 books in 16"
  },
  {
    "start": 1858.32,
    "end": 1866.64,
    "text": " years, really? I mean, and, and, and most of them are bestsellers. So you write, and this is almost,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1866.64,
    "end": 1872.16,
    "text": " doesn't matter what you write, you write about depression. And it's a bestseller, you write"
  },
  {
    "start": 1872.16,
    "end": 1879.6,
    "text": " about the player years, it's a bestseller. What can I do is a bestseller. What do you do differently?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1879.6,
    "end": 1884.88,
    "text": " From let's say somebody like me, who writes three books in 10 years."
  },
  {
    "start": 1884.88,
    "end": 1895.28,
    "text": " Yeah, but I read one of them, the honey can saga, and I really enjoyed it. So I don't, I think,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1895.28,
    "end": 1901.2,
    "text": " I think, what do I do differently? I do work quite fast. I'm quite, so I am quite prolific."
  },
  {
    "start": 1902.16,
    "end": 1911.44,
    "text": " I think when I, when I publish a book, I really put the work in to make it a success. I mean,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1911.7,
    "end": 1917.7,
    "text": " I don't sort of flog myself to death, but I do make sure that people know that it's happening."
  },
  {
    "start": 1917.7,
    "end": 1925.46,
    "text": " You know, I guess I use my profile, I use my access to different media, to different events."
  },
  {
    "start": 1925.46,
    "end": 1932.42,
    "text": " And I think hopefully, I mean, they haven't all been bestsellers, some of them, I mean,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1932.42,
    "end": 1936.5,
    "text": " I've written four novels, one of them, I think two of them, I think got in the top 10 list."
  },
  {
    "start": 1936.5,
    "end": 1941.38,
    "text": " None of them were number one bestsellers, one of them didn't sell very well at all."
  },
  {
    "start": 1941.62,
    "end": 1951.78,
    "text": " But I think when I have a good idea, when I know I have a good idea, I know how to push it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1951.78,
    "end": 1957.3,
    "text": " So for example, you know, I wrote a book about winning mindsets called Winners of How They Succeed."
  },
  {
    "start": 1957.3,
    "end": 1962.1,
    "text": " And I just knew when I was working on that there's a lot in this book and I know it'll do well,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1962.1,
    "end": 1966.66,
    "text": " and I know I'll be able to promote it and sell it. And I think likewise with the two kids books"
  },
  {
    "start": 1966.66,
    "end": 1972.9,
    "text": " that I'm doing, I think, you know, I think I'll be able to, they're very different, they're not"
  },
  {
    "start": 1972.9,
    "end": 1976.74,
    "text": " going to be in the bestseller list of the same because they're children, essentially, you know,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1976.74,
    "end": 1983.46,
    "text": " one of them is for primary schools, it's like a children's book. But I know that there's something"
  },
  {
    "start": 1983.46,
    "end": 1989.62,
    "text": " interesting, I know that people will find it interesting. And I'll then just work out how best"
  },
  {
    "start": 1989.62,
    "end": 1994.02,
    "text": " to make sure that people are aware of it. Once they're aware of it, then, you know, that's half"
  },
  {
    "start": 1994.02,
    "end": 2003.54,
    "text": " the battle. So writing for children, the idea came when you toured through the schools, that"
  },
  {
    "start": 2003.54,
    "end": 2012.1,
    "text": " right? Yeah, partly. It was, so when, but what can I do? It's aimed at everybody, it's aimed at"
  },
  {
    "start": 2012.1,
    "end": 2016.66,
    "text": " everybody saying unless we get involved in politics, you know, we're in a bad way. But it's"
  },
  {
    "start": 2016.66,
    "end": 2020.98,
    "text": " obviously particularly aimed at a young generation. So actually, it was a publisher who came to me"
  },
  {
    "start": 2020.98,
    "end": 2025.94,
    "text": " and said, look, I think this is great. But, you know, is there a way of doing this for the younger"
  },
  {
    "start": 2025.94,
    "end": 2033.86,
    "text": " people, specifically for younger people? And so that's what the next one is. It's really just an"
  },
  {
    "start": 2033.86,
    "end": 2039.54,
    "text": " explanation of what politics it is aimed at, like, very small children, you know, children in primary"
  },
  {
    "start": 2039.54,
    "end": 2045.78,
    "text": " school. And that I think that my background as a tabloid journalist probably came in quite handy"
  },
  {
    "start": 2045.78,
    "end": 2050.42,
    "text": " because you had situations, I had one point where the editor actually said, look, you've got to"
  },
  {
    "start": 2050.42,
    "end": 2054.58,
    "text": " remember the readers of this book are very, very young, you probably have to explain who Barack"
  },
  {
    "start": 2054.58,
    "end": 2065.22,
    "text": " Obama was. So, you know, and that sense of having to say, explain something like the voting system"
  },
  {
    "start": 2065.22,
    "end": 2069.94,
    "text": " in one sentence or one paragraph, you know, you really have to think about every word. So,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2069.94,
    "end": 2077.62,
    "text": " yeah, I've enjoyed doing it and hopefully it'll go well. Yeah. And of course, education and especially"
  },
  {
    "start": 2078.26,
    "end": 2084.26,
    "text": " political education starts, yeah, around that age, doesn't it? And we don't have it. We don't"
  },
  {
    "start": 2084.26,
    "end": 2088.82,
    "text": " have any political education in schools. No, it's crazy. You know, unless you do"
  },
  {
    "start": 2088.82,
    "end": 2094.5,
    "text": " A level politics, which is like 16 to 18, you don't do politics in school."
  },
  {
    "start": 2094.5,
    "end": 2099.06,
    "text": " That's right. Yeah, exactly. So where do they get their information? They get it from"
  },
  {
    "start": 2099.06,
    "end": 2103.3,
    "text": " social media. They get it from the newspapers, most of which are biased. They get it from their"
  },
  {
    "start": 2103.3,
    "end": 2108.74,
    "text": " parents. They, you know, they get it from, I don't know, wherever. And whereas actually, I think"
  },
  {
    "start": 2108.74,
    "end": 2114.42,
    "text": " that learning about how I think one of the problems with politics is people don't know how it works."
  },
  {
    "start": 2114.42,
    "end": 2121.3,
    "text": " Yeah, yeah, don't understand the political process. And, and of course, in the, in a sense,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2121.3,
    "end": 2126.82,
    "text": " why should they if they're not taught it? So, you know, they learn about kings and queens and all"
  },
  {
    "start": 2126.82,
    "end": 2131.62,
    "text": " the stuff of history. Fine, I'm not saying that's not important. But actually, how politics works"
  },
  {
    "start": 2131.62,
    "end": 2137.62,
    "text": " today. And just remember the day after we left the European Union, or we voted to leave the"
  },
  {
    "start": 2137.62,
    "end": 2143.46,
    "text": " European Union, the most googled question in the United Kingdom was, what is the European Union?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2143.46,
    "end": 2151.14,
    "text": " You're joking. I'm not. I'm not. So that's, that's a, that's a failure of politics. It's a failure"
  },
  {
    "start": 2151.14,
    "end": 2159.14,
    "text": " of media and it's a failure of education. But Alastair, actually, when, when did that really"
  },
  {
    "start": 2159.14,
    "end": 2167.78,
    "text": " happen? Because that is very briefly not my experience whatsoever. I lived during the Blair"
  },
  {
    "start": 2167.78,
    "end": 2177.38,
    "text": " and Brown years in Britain, very happily, very proud. And I left when Campbell came into power."
  },
  {
    "start": 2177.38,
    "end": 2185.62,
    "text": " Cameron. Sorry. When Cameron came into power. Can you imagine you would have come into power?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2186.82,
    "end": 2193.38,
    "text": " Yeah, absolutely. Go ahead, go ahead. Cameron came into power. And so from then on, it's just"
  },
  {
    "start": 2193.38,
    "end": 2205.3,
    "text": " downwards. How come? Oh, I don't know. I think, I think, excuse me, I think on the European"
  },
  {
    "start": 2205.3,
    "end": 2214.18,
    "text": " front, I think we underestimated the impact of several decades of relentlessly anti-European"
  },
  {
    "start": 2214.18,
    "end": 2221.54,
    "text": " propaganda in, in several of our main newspapers and in sections of the Tory party. And then I"
  },
  {
    "start": 2221.54,
    "end": 2229.14,
    "text": " think David Cameron came in. He came in at a time when on the back of the global financial crisis,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2229.14,
    "end": 2233.22,
    "text": " which they successfully pinned on Labour, even though actually Gordon Brown had done an amazing"
  },
  {
    "start": 2233.22,
    "end": 2241.06,
    "text": " job during the crisis. Yeah, I agree. Then I think what happened was that the Labour party that"
  },
  {
    "start": 2241.06,
    "end": 2250.02,
    "text": " followed new Labour didn't really defend our record. And I think the next thing that happened was that"
  },
  {
    "start": 2250.02,
    "end": 2257.38,
    "text": " the Tory party divisions over Europe, which had been around for a long time, Cameron felt he had"
  },
  {
    "start": 2257.38,
    "end": 2262.02,
    "text": " to have the referendum. I think he felt he was never going to lose. I think Johnson thought"
  },
  {
    "start": 2262.02,
    "end": 2268.98,
    "text": " they were never going to win. That went wrong. And I think, as you say, I think the decline has"
  },
  {
    "start": 2268.98,
    "end": 2273.46,
    "text": " stemmed from that. So I think it's a combination of the financial crisis feeding populism."
  },
  {
    "start": 2273.46,
    "end": 2280.26,
    "text": " And then the populism, the peak populism for us being the Brexit referendum and then the"
  },
  {
    "start": 2280.26,
    "end": 2287.38,
    "text": " politics that's followed. And then we've just had this succession of really, really bad"
  },
  {
    "start": 2287.38,
    "end": 2292.58,
    "text": " Conservative leaders. I think Theresa May tried her best to make sense of the position,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2292.58,
    "end": 2297.06,
    "text": " but she was put in an impossible position by people like Johnson. Johnson came in and was a"
  },
  {
    "start": 2297.06,
    "end": 2302.5,
    "text": " total disaster. Trust came in was a total disaster. And Sunak's now there and he's just not up to the"
  },
  {
    "start": 2302.5,
    "end": 2307.86,
    "text": " job. So we're in a complete mess and I think it's going to take at least a change of government"
  },
  {
    "start": 2307.86,
    "end": 2313.14,
    "text": " and probably more than a change of government to get us out of the mess. And if I come back"
  },
  {
    "start": 2313.14,
    "end": 2320.5,
    "text": " and practically now to you, what can I do? Should we focus more on the do or should we focus more"
  },
  {
    "start": 2320.5,
    "end": 2329.62,
    "text": " on the I? Well, I think you have to do both. What can I do? As I said earlier, people have"
  },
  {
    "start": 2329.62,
    "end": 2334.18,
    "text": " to do what they can. First of all, they have to decide whether they care. I think one of the big"
  },
  {
    "start": 2334.18,
    "end": 2340.42,
    "text": " problems in politics in the UK, but us, you know, to some extent, all over the world is people"
  },
  {
    "start": 2340.42,
    "end": 2344.82,
    "text": " thinking they can't make a difference. And I'm trying to persuade people that they can."
  },
  {
    "start": 2344.82,
    "end": 2348.34,
    "text": " It doesn't mean that everybody gets what they want. That's impossible, but you can make a"
  },
  {
    "start": 2348.34,
    "end": 2355.06,
    "text": " difference. And I I quote lots of examples of individuals who've decided to make either general"
  },
  {
    "start": 2355.06,
    "end": 2362.58,
    "text": " change or specific change. And I think that the so it is about doing is no doubt it's about doing"
  },
  {
    "start": 2362.58,
    "end": 2369.78,
    "text": " a doing can take many, many different forms. You know, writing can be doing, campaigning can be"
  },
  {
    "start": 2369.78,
    "end": 2377.06,
    "text": " doing, establishing things can be doing, joining teams that already exist can be doing, starting"
  },
  {
    "start": 2377.06,
    "end": 2380.58,
    "text": " new teams for things that don't exist can be doing. So there's lots and lots of different"
  },
  {
    "start": 2380.58,
    "end": 2387.06,
    "text": " ways of doing it. But ultimately, my point is that for all that we tend to look at politics and think"
  },
  {
    "start": 2387.06,
    "end": 2393.54,
    "text": " now not for me, I'm trying to build the bridge between people seeing things that are wrong with"
  },
  {
    "start": 2393.54,
    "end": 2400.34,
    "text": " their lives and the places that they live, or, you know, the world that they live in and saying that"
  },
  {
    "start": 2400.34,
    "end": 2404.5,
    "text": " if you really want to try to fix it, you have to get involved in the political process,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2404.5,
    "end": 2409.86,
    "text": " whether you like it or not, is how. So it's a combination of the eye and the do, but the do"
  },
  {
    "start": 2409.86,
    "end": 2415.94,
    "text": " is very, very important. I think I think part of the problem with them with the the modern world is"
  },
  {
    "start": 2415.94,
    "end": 2423.94,
    "text": " that people think that doing is tweeting or signing a petition or, you know, that is part of doing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2423.94,
    "end": 2432.1,
    "text": " but it's quite a small part of doing. Alastair, you also speak French and German."
  },
  {
    "start": 2432.1,
    "end": 2436.26,
    "text": " Yeah. My French is better than my German."
  },
  {
    "start": 2436.26,
    "end": 2440.42,
    "text": " Always, it's a nicer language, isn't it?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2440.42,
    "end": 2450.9,
    "text": " I like German. I love French, but I don't think German is as ugly a language as people like to"
  },
  {
    "start": 2450.9,
    "end": 2458.5,
    "text": " say. I think spoken nicely is a beautiful language. Yeah, yeah. Particularly if you go back, my"
  },
  {
    "start": 2458.5,
    "end": 2463.86,
    "text": " husband is British, so we go through German and English and I keep on telling him that there are"
  },
  {
    "start": 2463.86,
    "end": 2472.58,
    "text": " so many writers from the last century, which he had never heard of, like Stefan Zweig and so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 2472.58,
    "end": 2477.86,
    "text": " Yeah, yeah. They have the beautiful language, which is just simply not there anymore. But"
  },
  {
    "start": 2477.86,
    "end": 2486.98,
    "text": " that is not my question. Having two more languages you can switch to,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2488.1,
    "end": 2493.7,
    "text": " does it influence your perspective, your political perspective?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2493.7,
    "end": 2500.26,
    "text": " Oh, definitely, definitely. Yeah. I think it just makes you have a broader view. I think if you're"
  },
  {
    "start": 2500.26,
    "end": 2507.46,
    "text": " able to engage with other people, to pick up on their culture, to pick up on their music, to pick"
  },
  {
    "start": 2507.46,
    "end": 2513.14,
    "text": " up on their history, in a way, in their language, I think it gives you a broader perspective."
  },
  {
    "start": 2514.5,
    "end": 2520.26,
    "text": " So for example, we are on the podcast this week, we're going to be talking about the Franco-German"
  },
  {
    "start": 2520.26,
    "end": 2528.42,
    "text": " relationship and Macron and Schultz. And it's interesting and I could certainly,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2528.42,
    "end": 2536.18,
    "text": " I could listen to the English language, I could read the Financial Times, I can do all that,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2536.9,
    "end": 2545.94,
    "text": " but actually there's no substitute in a way for reading the French and German analysis and for"
  },
  {
    "start": 2545.94,
    "end": 2554.18,
    "text": " reading and listening and speaking to people who really know and doing it in their own language."
  },
  {
    "start": 2554.18,
    "end": 2560.98,
    "text": " I think that so I'll spend part of today calling a couple of people that I know in French or German"
  },
  {
    "start": 2560.98,
    "end": 2566.34,
    "text": " politics and just saying, you know, what do you think and what should I emphasize? And I think"
  },
  {
    "start": 2566.34,
    "end": 2574.18,
    "text": " getting a sense of it in somebody else's language, I just think it broadens and deepens your"
  },
  {
    "start": 2574.18,
    "end": 2578.02,
    "text": " perspective. It doesn't necessarily change your perspective, but it definitely broadens and deepens"
  },
  {
    "start": 2578.02,
    "end": 2587.14,
    "text": " it. And it's also, we have to admit it, it's quite rare that in Britain that you find people who speak"
  },
  {
    "start": 2587.14,
    "end": 2595.78,
    "text": " two other European languages. Well, it's very, it's quite rare and it's sad. And one of the things"
  },
  {
    "start": 2595.78,
    "end": 2601.94,
    "text": " I was not happy about that the government I worked for did was we downgraded the importance of language"
  },
  {
    "start": 2601.94,
    "end": 2608.5,
    "text": " and education. I think it's always good to learn other languages and try to understand other languages."
  },
  {
    "start": 2608.5,
    "end": 2616.26,
    "text": " I think if I was back at school now, I think I'd probably learn Chinese and Arabic, maybe as opposed"
  },
  {
    "start": 2616.26,
    "end": 2623.06,
    "text": " to French and German, but I love French and German. It's one of the best things I ever did was to,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2623.06,
    "end": 2628.5,
    "text": " and I lost my German in, because I did French and German up to university level. And then"
  },
  {
    "start": 2628.5,
    "end": 2632.74,
    "text": " I've always kept my French because I traveled to France a lot. We've got a house in France,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2632.74,
    "end": 2638.34,
    "text": " I've worked in France, whereas I haven't had so many connections with Germany. And during,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2638.34,
    "end": 2648.18,
    "text": " and of course, in working in politics, you know, although Schroeder didn't speak that great English,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2648.18,
    "end": 2655.06,
    "text": " but most of the time you were speaking English. And certainly that was the sort of working language"
  },
  {
    "start": 2655.06,
    "end": 2660.98,
    "text": " in the European context. Whereas, so I lost a lot of my German. And then during COVID, I did a couple"
  },
  {
    "start": 2660.98,
    "end": 2667.46,
    "text": " of courses with the Goethe Institute online. And I've since, yeah, ich habe die Liebe der"
  },
  {
    "start": 2667.46,
    "end": 2672.98,
    "text": " deutschen Sprache wieder gefunden, kann ich sagen. Oh, wie schön, na gut, dass wir das wissen."
  },
  {
    "start": 2674.74,
    "end": 2683.78,
    "text": " Good, das wird es hier wissen in Deutschland. It is really a pity that I have not heard of that"
  },
  {
    "start": 2683.78,
    "end": 2690.34,
    "text": " before that you speak German, because I joined the German Embassy in 2002. And one of my main task"
  },
  {
    "start": 2690.34,
    "end": 2699.62,
    "text": " was together with the French and the Italians to promote our languages. And at the time, I think"
  },
  {
    "start": 2699.62,
    "end": 2708.5,
    "text": " 4%, maybe 3% of the population spoke German, even less Italian, more French. And we were always"
  },
  {
    "start": 2708.5,
    "end": 2718.18,
    "text": " looking for an angle to find somebody in a government who speaks either of the language."
  },
  {
    "start": 2718.18,
    "end": 2721.94,
    "text": " Ben Bradshaw, he did. Ben Bradshaw, he was at the European Embassy. That's true."
  },
  {
    "start": 2721.94,
    "end": 2728.9,
    "text": " Yeah, but that's about it. Nick Clegg speaks several European languages."
  },
  {
    "start": 2729.46,
    "end": 2735.54,
    "text": " Okay, yeah, of course, he's also married to Spanish. He's an interviewer. Yeah, he speaks"
  },
  {
    "start": 2735.54,
    "end": 2745.46,
    "text": " Dutch. He speaks, I think he speaks German with a Dutch accent. He speaks French, Spanish,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2745.46,
    "end": 2748.9,
    "text": " and I think he's got another language. I can't remember, it might be Italian, I can't remember."
  },
  {
    "start": 2748.9,
    "end": 2754.26,
    "text": " So yeah, but it's true, it's very, very rare. And it's quite embarrassing actually in Germany."
  },
  {
    "start": 2754.26,
    "end": 2759.14,
    "text": " I did a speech and I started it in German and people go, wow, that's amazing. And I'm thinking,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2759.46,
    "end": 2764.5,
    "text": " every single one of you can speak English. And yet you're going, wow, he can speak German."
  },
  {
    "start": 2764.5,
    "end": 2770.02,
    "text": " Well, my German is not as good as my French."
  },
  {
    "start": 2770.02,
    "end": 2777.7,
    "text": " So that means the French is very good then. I was thinking,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2780.82,
    "end": 2789.86,
    "text": " if we don't know about other cultures, we tap into all those, what's it called?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2789.86,
    "end": 2801.3,
    "text": " Cases. Yeah. Or traps. That's about traps. Yeah, for example, if I don't know anything else about"
  },
  {
    "start": 2801.3,
    "end": 2808.02,
    "text": " Russia, for example, then we have Vladimir Putin. If I don't know anything about the culture and"
  },
  {
    "start": 2808.02,
    "end": 2817.06,
    "text": " the literature and whatsoever, then it is just not mirroring the right idea, is it?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2817.06,
    "end": 2824.66,
    "text": " And it's much easier than to become a victim of propaganda."
  },
  {
    "start": 2824.66,
    "end": 2836.58,
    "text": " Yeah. Yeah. And that's again why it's very, I think it is important to at least try to understand why"
  },
  {
    "start": 2837.78,
    "end": 2841.86,
    "text": " people act differently. So just to go back to the Franco-German thing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2841.86,
    "end": 2851.62,
    "text": " if you think that Macron is his main threat politically at the moment is from the far right"
  },
  {
    "start": 2851.62,
    "end": 2858.9,
    "text": " and Marine Le Pen. And it gives you a better understanding of why he's more likely to have"
  },
  {
    "start": 2858.9,
    "end": 2864.02,
    "text": " got himself into this position where he's now seen as very hawkish on Ukraine, because she's"
  },
  {
    "start": 2864.02,
    "end": 2869.94,
    "text": " kind of pro-Putin. And that's politically, he thinks that's politically damaging to her."
  },
  {
    "start": 2869.94,
    "end": 2874.5,
    "text": " And therefore, he's going to emphasize that side of things. Then you look a little bit at the"
  },
  {
    "start": 2874.5,
    "end": 2881.22,
    "text": " history of Germany and say, you think about how Willy Brandt handled the whole"
  },
  {
    "start": 2881.22,
    "end": 2886.58,
    "text": " Ostpolitik and the Cold War. And it maybe gives you a better understanding of why"
  },
  {
    "start": 2887.46,
    "end": 2894.18,
    "text": " Schultz wants to be seen as somebody more interested in peace than war. So I think these"
  },
  {
    "start": 2894.18,
    "end": 2900.5,
    "text": " things are, if you don't have that, at least that very basic perspective, there's a danger that"
  },
  {
    "start": 2900.5,
    "end": 2904.9,
    "text": " you sit there thinking, why can't they all just be like us? Which they're not."
  },
  {
    "start": 2904.9,
    "end": 2915.06,
    "text": " Yeah. And I, yeah. And many here in Germany are probably like me, my grandfather fought in"
  },
  {
    "start": 2915.06,
    "end": 2920.66,
    "text": " Stalingrad. So the last thing I want to see is tanks at the Russian border."
  },
  {
    "start": 2920.66,
    "end": 2924.18,
    "text": " Yeah. Or the last thing you want to see is a war between Russia and Germany."
  },
  {
    "start": 2924.18,
    "end": 2930.5,
    "text": " Yeah. No, that's, yeah. Whereas, you know, I think in, look, I don't think that I'm not"
  },
  {
    "start": 2930.5,
    "end": 2936.74,
    "text": " sure the French want a war either, but you have a, you know, so people are saying, well, the Brits"
  },
  {
    "start": 2936.74,
    "end": 2940.42,
    "text": " have given them their cruise missiles. The French have given the Ukrainians their cruise missiles."
  },
  {
    "start": 2940.42,
    "end": 2947.46,
    "text": " Why weren't Germany? As you say, if you think that virtually every German family will know somebody"
  },
  {
    "start": 2947.46,
    "end": 2952.9,
    "text": " who was, who would say, give exactly the same story as you've done, then it becomes a little bit"
  },
  {
    "start": 2952.9,
    "end": 2961.7,
    "text": " more, perhaps a little bit more understandable. Yeah. Which takes us back to the broader view."
  },
  {
    "start": 2962.66,
    "end": 2970.74,
    "text": " Looking at the year of 2024, we will see elections in 64 countries plus the EU."
  },
  {
    "start": 2970.74,
    "end": 2978.1,
    "text": " What are your expectations, both for Britain and the world?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2978.1,
    "end": 2986.5,
    "text": " I mean, if, you know, I think, I think there's a really interesting paradox at the moment. We're"
  },
  {
    "start": 2986.5,
    "end": 2991.78,
    "text": " having more elections. We're having more people voting this year around the world than ever in"
  },
  {
    "start": 2991.78,
    "end": 2995.46,
    "text": " any year in history, but I'm not sure that the world is that much more democratic. If anything,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2995.46,
    "end": 3001.54,
    "text": " it's less democratic than it was. I'm hoping that our election will be a big win for Labour."
  },
  {
    "start": 3001.54,
    "end": 3008.98,
    "text": " My worry is complacency and apathy and the feeling of people thinking, oh, I can't be bothered."
  },
  {
    "start": 3008.98,
    "end": 3013.46,
    "text": " They're all the same, all the, and that stuff that I address in the book. It's not true that"
  },
  {
    "start": 3013.46,
    "end": 3016.66,
    "text": " they're all the same, and it's not true that it doesn't matter who's in power. It matters a lot"
  },
  {
    "start": 3016.66,
    "end": 3023.54,
    "text": " who's in power. So I'm hoping, I think this has been the worst government of my lifetime,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3023.54,
    "end": 3031.62,
    "text": " but I can't, it'd be very hard to find a worse one. They deserve to be annihilated,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3031.62,
    "end": 3034.34,
    "text": " and I hope they are, but, you know, we'll have to wait and see."
  },
  {
    "start": 3034.34,
    "end": 3040.74,
    "text": " And on your tour through the country, where do you go to?"
  },
  {
    "start": 3042.74,
    "end": 3048.9,
    "text": " Well, I go a lot to the places near where my footballer team are playing at the weekend."
  },
  {
    "start": 3048.9,
    "end": 3055.78,
    "text": " So I do tend to build, I tend to build weekends around where Burnley are playing. So I go all"
  },
  {
    "start": 3055.78,
    "end": 3062.34,
    "text": " over the country. I mean, I've been to most parts of the country. I've got a backlog of hundreds"
  },
  {
    "start": 3062.34,
    "end": 3066.98,
    "text": " of schools that have asked me to go to. I try to get, I try to do a couple a week,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3068.5,
    "end": 3074.58,
    "text": " and they can be anywhere. And I tend to go to, you know, obviously I live in London, so quite"
  },
  {
    "start": 3074.58,
    "end": 3079.78,
    "text": " often London and the Southeast, but I try to get to the north of England, to Scotland, to Wales."
  },
  {
    "start": 3079.78,
    "end": 3085.62,
    "text": " I was in Northern Ireland not long ago. So just try, you know, I think it's just good to get around"
  },
  {
    "start": 3085.62,
    "end": 3092.5,
    "text": " the country and try and get a proper taste of the place. And then the country comes to you,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3092.5,
    "end": 3097.46,
    "text": " doesn't it, when they, for example? Yeah, these events, well, we're doing a tour,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3097.46,
    "end": 3102.74,
    "text": " Rory Stewart and I are doing a tour, assuming the election's in autumn, we've got a few dates in"
  },
  {
    "start": 3102.74,
    "end": 3108.58,
    "text": " October where we're doing some pretty big venues. I mean, you filled the O2 arena."
  },
  {
    "start": 3108.58,
    "end": 3111.38,
    "text": " I don't know if it's been filled yet, but I know it's well on its way."
  },
  {
    "start": 3111.38,
    "end": 3115.3,
    "text": " Yeah, I mean, this is really, really remarkable. Yeah, it's pretty."
  },
  {
    "start": 3115.3,
    "end": 3121.54,
    "text": " How does it feel? How does it feel for you? It's a bit odd, to be honest. It's a bit odd."
  },
  {
    "start": 3122.66,
    "end": 3127.7,
    "text": " I think it's good. I'm happy about it. I'd rather there were lots of people there than,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3127.7,
    "end": 3134.82,
    "text": " you know, 25 people. It's an opportunity. It shows that people are interested and engaged in politics."
  },
  {
    "start": 3134.82,
    "end": 3140.18,
    "text": " I mean, you've got to remember, I've been doing the kind of talking, writing"
  },
  {
    "start": 3140.18,
    "end": 3147.22,
    "text": " stuff for about 20 years now. So it's kind of, it feels like an extension of what I've done before"
  },
  {
    "start": 3147.22,
    "end": 3151.38,
    "text": " for many, many years, but it's on a different scale when you're talking about the O2."
  },
  {
    "start": 3151.38,
    "end": 3155.62,
    "text": " If you'd have said to me, I mean, I did, it's true. I did do the"
  },
  {
    "start": 3155.62,
    "end": 3161.06,
    "text": " festival hall, the Royal Festival Hall, not long after I left Downing Street."
  },
  {
    "start": 3161.06,
    "end": 3165.46,
    "text": " But that was when there was a lot of interest in me based on having just left."
  },
  {
    "start": 3165.46,
    "end": 3173.54,
    "text": " I think what is, I think now the combination and the podcast and the books and this sort of motto"
  },
  {
    "start": 3173.54,
    "end": 3179.3,
    "text": " of disagreeing agreeably and the profile that the podcast has got is just,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3180.42,
    "end": 3184.82,
    "text": " it's on a different level. And yeah, I'm enjoying it. It's good."
  },
  {
    "start": 3184.82,
    "end": 3193.86,
    "text": " And of course, when you left, there were also different reasons for interest in Alastair Campbell,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3193.86,
    "end": 3201.06,
    "text": " wasn't it? A lot of people were frightened of you. Others accused you of all sorts of things."
  },
  {
    "start": 3201.06,
    "end": 3209.06,
    "text": " There was the Iraq war. There were also troubles. So the Alastair Campbell now is more somebody who"
  },
  {
    "start": 3209.94,
    "end": 3216.58,
    "text": " unites the country. Is that more accurate? I think that might be overstating it. I think I've got,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3216.58,
    "end": 3221.78,
    "text": " look, I've still got a lot of enemies and I've still got a lot of, it makes me laugh"
  },
  {
    "start": 3221.78,
    "end": 3227.62,
    "text": " how some of the right-wing newspapers still try to do me in the whole time, which is,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3227.62,
    "end": 3235.94,
    "text": " genuinely makes me laugh. But look, there was definitely a period in my life when"
  },
  {
    "start": 3236.82,
    "end": 3242.9,
    "text": " it was quite hard to be out and about without feeling that there was quite a lot of aggravation"
  },
  {
    "start": 3242.9,
    "end": 3248.82,
    "text": " around the corner. You still get a little bit of that. But generally, I think that people"
  },
  {
    "start": 3248.82,
    "end": 3256.58,
    "text": " understand that I'm somebody who really believes what I say and fights for what I believe and"
  },
  {
    "start": 3256.58,
    "end": 3263.14,
    "text": " genuinely wants politics to be better, thinks that it can be better, but thinks that it involves"
  },
  {
    "start": 3263.7,
    "end": 3267.7,
    "text": " inspiring and motivating the next generation to get involved. And that's what I'm trying to do."
  },
  {
    "start": 3267.7,
    "end": 3277.06,
    "text": " And I think that people do, I think it's the same with Tony Blair. Tony was,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3277.06,
    "end": 3283.7,
    "text": " he's still hated by some people, but I think even the ones who hate him have a grudging respect that"
  },
  {
    "start": 3283.7,
    "end": 3288.9,
    "text": " he just keeps going. He's doing public service in a different way. He's built up this huge"
  },
  {
    "start": 3288.9,
    "end": 3294.66,
    "text": " institute which is doing all sorts of work around the world. And I think that we've all just kept"
  },
  {
    "start": 3294.66,
    "end": 3299.14,
    "text": " going in our different ways. And I think that's, because to think about politics today, you look"
  },
  {
    "start": 3299.14,
    "end": 3304.5,
    "text": " at somebody like, we mentioned David Cameron, there's David Cameron. I mean, he stopped being"
  },
  {
    "start": 3304.5,
    "end": 3310.9,
    "text": " Prime Minister at an age well shorter when most people end their careers, let alone when they"
  },
  {
    "start": 3310.9,
    "end": 3316.9,
    "text": " start it. And now, okay, he's back as Foreign Secretary and it's different, but you look at Obama"
  },
  {
    "start": 3316.9,
    "end": 3324.58,
    "text": " and how many years Clinton has been out of power. This is a new phenomenon where people go into"
  },
  {
    "start": 3324.58,
    "end": 3329.3,
    "text": " public service early, they leave public service relatively early because there's a kind of sell"
  },
  {
    "start": 3329.3,
    "end": 3333.22,
    "text": " by date for everybody. And then they have to decide, well, what do you do with the rest of your life?"
  },
  {
    "start": 3333.22,
    "end": 3340.02,
    "text": " And what I decided to do the rest of my life was to write, to broadcast, to campaign,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3340.74,
    "end": 3347.7,
    "text": " to believe in certain causes and try to promote them and hopefully carry on having a nice life,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3347.7,
    "end": 3350.82,
    "text": " making a good living, but doing it in a way that was kind of productive."
  },
  {
    "start": 3350.82,
    "end": 3359.46,
    "text": " I'm looking here at the question. I wanted to ask you about whether we can explore a better"
  },
  {
    "start": 3359.46,
    "end": 3367.22,
    "text": " political model. But I was just reminded of Kirsty Young called you recently in a Radio4 interview,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3368.66,
    "end": 3377.46,
    "text": " you are the epitome of reason. And which is basically the perfect example of rationality,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3377.46,
    "end": 3387.94,
    "text": " right? Logic, sound judgment, which I saw the BBC then when you left Downing Street and the BBC"
  },
  {
    "start": 3387.94,
    "end": 3396.82,
    "text": " now calling you that shows you something has moved on, moved away, moved up, I don't know."
  },
  {
    "start": 3397.62,
    "end": 3405.38,
    "text": " I'm not sure that ever being the BBC would concur with her view. Look, I can still flare up and I"
  },
  {
    "start": 3405.38,
    "end": 3414.74,
    "text": " can still get very, very agitated about different arguments. But I certainly think that the podcast"
  },
  {
    "start": 3414.74,
    "end": 3421.54,
    "text": " has probably made me a bit more reflective. And I think it's down to, again, I think it's to do with"
  },
  {
    "start": 3422.5,
    "end": 3428.02,
    "text": " time. So like you and I are talking now, we've been talking for an hour. When you know you have"
  },
  {
    "start": 3428.02,
    "end": 3434.5,
    "text": " time to speak and to say things, you know, back to the point we made earlier about the formulae,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3434.5,
    "end": 3440.1,
    "text": " nature of a lot of our media. If you've got, you know, even something like Newsnight or the"
  },
  {
    "start": 3440.1,
    "end": 3444.42,
    "text": " Today program, you know, if you're lucky, you'll get five minutes. And if you're in a discussion,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3444.42,
    "end": 3450.5,
    "text": " you're going to get two or three to sort of, you know, make all the points you want to try to make"
  },
  {
    "start": 3450.5,
    "end": 3456.18,
    "text": " when it's impossible. Whereas I think what the podcast form does, it gives people the confidence"
  },
  {
    "start": 3456.18,
    "end": 3464.42,
    "text": " to know that they can, they can speak at length, they can think aloud. They can, they can say,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3464.42,
    "end": 3470.1,
    "text": " oh, I haven't thought of that. You know, it's a very, it's a very different format to the,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3470.1,
    "end": 3473.94,
    "text": " to the one that you and I have grown up with, which has been very much, you know,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3473.94,
    "end": 3478.1,
    "text": " here's the question, here's the answer, here's the question that rebuts the answer."
  },
  {
    "start": 3478.82,
    "end": 3482.9,
    "text": " And here's the argument, let's get going. And, you know, it's just sort of often,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3482.9,
    "end": 3488.98,
    "text": " at least in more, more heat than light. Yeah, yeah. And of course, especially when"
  },
  {
    "start": 3488.98,
    "end": 3500.18,
    "text": " has a tabloid background, where you have just not much space for much to say. And it's reduced to"
  },
  {
    "start": 3500.18,
    "end": 3507.7,
    "text": " headlines, which I think people today, I can't read that anymore. I just, yeah, yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 3507.7,
    "end": 3512.18,
    "text": " Alastair, you reminded me that we talk for an hour. Can I ask you two more questions?"
  },
  {
    "start": 3512.18,
    "end": 3522.66,
    "text": " Yeah. Okay. One would be, how does a better political model look like?"
  },
  {
    "start": 3522.66,
    "end": 3528.18,
    "text": " Just for, for maybe for Britain?"
  },
  {
    "start": 3529.7,
    "end": 3535.7,
    "text": " Well, I think we need to restore, we need to restore basic standards."
  },
  {
    "start": 3535.7,
    "end": 3545.7,
    "text": " I think that politicians who, who lie should be essentially expelled from public life."
  },
  {
    "start": 3545.7,
    "end": 3555.3,
    "text": " I think that if you really fail, like Liz Truss did, likewise, you shouldn't really"
  },
  {
    "start": 3555.3,
    "end": 3561.7,
    "text": " be, you shouldn't really have a platform. I think so restoration of standard basic standards in"
  },
  {
    "start": 3561.7,
    "end": 3567.7,
    "text": " public life. I think that the political parties should become far more outward looking than they are."
  },
  {
    "start": 3567.7,
    "end": 3575.54,
    "text": " I, I, I, I for one would, would favor compulsory voting, lowering the voting age and proper"
  },
  {
    "start": 3575.54,
    "end": 3581.38,
    "text": " political education in schools. I think that would give us the basics from those things would"
  },
  {
    "start": 3581.38,
    "end": 3586.58,
    "text": " give us the basis for a new framework. I think I'd love it if Keir Starmer, if he becomes"
  },
  {
    "start": 3586.58,
    "end": 3592.66,
    "text": " prime minister, if he actually did review the whole political system, voting system, House of"
  },
  {
    "start": 3592.66,
    "end": 3598.02,
    "text": " Lords, devolution, I think there's so much more that we could do to make Britain feel the more"
  },
  {
    "start": 3598.02,
    "end": 3602.66,
    "text": " modern democracy. I think we feel quite tired as a democracy right now."
  },
  {
    "start": 3602.66,
    "end": 3609.38,
    "text": " I got you another 15 questions and I have to pick one. And it's really difficult."
  },
  {
    "start": 3610.9,
    "end": 3620.66,
    "text": " So I, I think I go with language because you are the master communicator. And"
  },
  {
    "start": 3620.66,
    "end": 3629.86,
    "text": " how do we transition from an currently overwhelming language of conflict to"
  },
  {
    "start": 3629.86,
    "end": 3634.34,
    "text": " a more powerful language of respect?"
  },
  {
    "start": 3639.3,
    "end": 3648.02,
    "text": " I think by doing it, so again, one of the hopes I have for Keir Starmer, if there is a change of"
  },
  {
    "start": 3648.02,
    "end": 3652.74,
    "text": " government, I think he's more serious than what we've had before. I think it's about"
  },
  {
    "start": 3652.74,
    "end": 3658.9,
    "text": " reestablishing the sense that government is really serious and quite difficult and quite"
  },
  {
    "start": 3658.9,
    "end": 3665.22,
    "text": " challenging. I was in Australia a couple of weeks ago and I was saying to the Australians there,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3665.22,
    "end": 3669.94,
    "text": " I think they they're very often very down on their politics and their politicians, but actually"
  },
  {
    "start": 3669.94,
    "end": 3676.74,
    "text": " I think the quality of politics there is higher in many regards. And I think one of the reasons"
  },
  {
    "start": 3676.74,
    "end": 3683.86,
    "text": " is that particularly within state governments, I think there is a, I have a sense of a greater"
  },
  {
    "start": 3683.86,
    "end": 3691.54,
    "text": " depth and seriousness. So I think it's about restoring politics as a serious and noble calling."
  },
  {
    "start": 3693.54,
    "end": 3697.38,
    "text": " And that's very difficult when you've had characters like Johnson and Truss around."
  },
  {
    "start": 3697.38,
    "end": 3701.3,
    "text": " It's very difficult when you've had all the corruption that there's been. It's very difficult"
  },
  {
    "start": 3701.3,
    "end": 3706.26,
    "text": " when you see some of the characters that succeed, particularly somebody like Trump."
  },
  {
    "start": 3706.26,
    "end": 3714.9,
    "text": " But I think politics is a serious, I think we have to transition from this sense that politics is"
  },
  {
    "start": 3714.9,
    "end": 3721.38,
    "text": " all about the three word slogan or the abuse and actually just something, I think we need a generation"
  },
  {
    "start": 3721.38,
    "end": 3724.5,
    "text": " of political leaders to come along and say, you know what, this is really hard. I'm going to do"
  },
  {
    "start": 3724.5,
    "end": 3729.06,
    "text": " my best. I'm going to provide leadership. I'm going to explain what the challenges are. Yes,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3729.06,
    "end": 3733.46,
    "text": " I'm going to make difficult decisions, but I'm not going to treat you like idiots and just pretend"
  },
  {
    "start": 3733.46,
    "end": 3739.22,
    "text": " that everything can be solved with a three word slogan because it can't. And I think the rest"
  },
  {
    "start": 3739.22,
    "end": 3746.66,
    "text": " of politics is probably doing good work in that direction. Well, that's very, very kind of you."
  },
  {
    "start": 3746.66,
    "end": 3753.22,
    "text": " So to say, thank you very much. Alistair, that was a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful hour."
  },
  {
    "start": 3753.22,
    "end": 3760.02,
    "text": " I know I did a lot and I'm not at least surprised about your success. And I wish you even more and"
  },
  {
    "start": 3760.02,
    "end": 3774.58,
    "text": " that more Bob's who actually take the action and do what they learned. And hopefully you keep on"
  },
  {
    "start": 3774.58,
    "end": 3784.02,
    "text": " communicating in all kinds of ways to make country and society a bit better."
  },
  {
    "start": 3784.02,
    "end": 3788.74,
    "text": " Well, that's very kind of you to say so. And I hope you keep on writing your books as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 3788.74,
    "end": 3792.42,
    "text": " Thank you very much. Okay, see you soon."
  },
  {
    "start": 3792.42,
    "end": 3798.98,
    "text": " You've been listening to a special English edition of the Gorsa Neustadt, a German podcast series"
  },
  {
    "start": 3798.98,
    "end": 3805.3,
    "text": " by Zabilla Barton, in which she talks to pioneering leaders who are committed to making our world"
  },
  {
    "start": 3805.3,
    "end": 3813.06,
    "text": " smarter, greener and fairer. For more information, please visit www.zabillabardon.com"
  },
  {
    "start": 3813.06,
    "end": 3823.22,
    "text": " and the official site of the World Economic Forum."
  }
]