[ { "start": 6.46, "end": 8.87, "text": "Maritime matters, global perspectives" }, { "start": 9.01, "end": 9.55, "text": "through a German" }, { "start": 9.63, "end": 11.27, "text": "lens for the maritime industry." }, { "start": 12.27, "end": 12.65, "text": "We bring the" }, { "start": 12.73, "end": 12.97, "text": "German" }, { "start": 13.05, "end": 15.99, "text": "perspective to the world and global insights into Germany." }, { "start": 17.29, "end": 19.11, "text": "Maritime Matters is produced by The" }, { "start": 19.17, "end": 19.43, "text": "German" }, { "start": 19.49, "end": 21.35, "text": "Maritime Centre – the think tank" }, { "start": 21.41, "end": 21.89, "text": "of the German" }, { "start": 21.95, "end": 22.81, "text": "maritime sector." }, { "start": 25.53, "end": 25.97, "text": "Welcome" }, { "start": 26.13, "end": 26.97, "text": "to our podcast!" }, { "start": 27.31, "end": 28.63, "text": "My name is Matthias Katon." }, { "start": 29.27, "end": 32.85, "text": "I'm the managing director at The German maritime centre And your host." }, { "start": 36.11, "end": 38.33, "text": "My guest today is Professor Christian Büger." }, { "start": 38.61, "end": 48.65, "text": "He's a professor at the University of Copenhagen, where he leads a research group focused on ocean infrastructure and one of the directors for an international network on maritime security." }, { "start": 57.91, "end": 58.49, "text": "Very exotic!" }, { "start": 59.23, "end": 64.129, "text": "Over his career he has written more than two hundred publications on international security and global governance." }, { "start": 64.349, "end": 77.83, "text": "And in twenty-twenty four, He published the book Understanding Maritime Security which was published by Oxford University Press... ...and I guess we will touch upon some of the topics that are in our conversation today." }, { "start": 84.79, "end": 90.87, "text": "Christian's work on it makes him particularly well suited for this podcast Bridges Research & Practice." }, { "start": 91.59, "end": 96.69, "text": "He regularly advises decision makers at the very highest levels in twenty-twenty five." }, { "start": 96.85, "end": 104.23, "text": "For example, he briefed United Nations Security Council that you breathe NATO and The European Council on his research on piracy." }, { "start": 104.45, "end": 114.95, "text": "ocean politics and security of our seas has featured in multiple media outlets, including Spiegel, Guardian and Politico Al Jazeera just to name a few." }, { "start": 115.17, "end": 123.61, "text": "So very strong expert both on the research side but also well versed in explaining topics to a broader audience." }, { "start": 123.73, "end": 126.03, "text": "welcome Christian to our podcast." }, { "start": 126.35, "end": 127.89, "text": "it's pleasure to be with you today." }, { "start": 128.509, "end": 133.45, "text": "as I said we will talk about maritime security And most of us rarely think." }, { "start": 137.57, "end": 147.45, "text": "The audience of course, will know that depending on the number somewhere between eighty and ninety percent all goods are transported at some point in time." }, { "start": 147.55, "end": 151.39, "text": "so it makes maritime security a vital issue." }, { "start": 154.25, "end": 158.19, "text": "It's not only about cargo but also if we talk about internet traffic." }, { "start": 158.83, "end": 162.27, "text": "We are recording this podcast via the internet right now." }, { "start": 162.99, "end": 172.09, "text": "Listeners will listen to it over the Internet as well, and there is some estimates that almost all internet traffic runs through cables that lie on the seabed." }, { "start": 172.17, "end": 176.13, "text": "so that's also a very important part of maritime security." }, { "start": 176.81, "end": 183.33, "text": "however... The term means many different things for people So let's kick off with definition." }, { "start": 183.69, "end": 189.69, "text": "For those who don't deal On a daily basis, how do you explain the term maritime security?" }, { "start": 189.81, "end": 190.67, "text": "What does it entail." }, { "start": 191.13, "end": 192.49, "text": "That's super important question." }, { "start": 192.55, "end": 203.17, "text": "but before we go there let us just add some additional facts which is that sixty percent of our energy comes from the sea and its either generated to wind farms at sea." }, { "start": 203.91, "end": 217.65, "text": "It comes through oil or oil platforms pipelines already transported by the sea And in moments when we witness breakdowns transportation network, as we are seeing it currently in the straight up for most." }, { "start": 218.21, "end": 219.71, "text": "We all pay the price for you." }, { "start": 220.25, "end": 233.87, "text": "and there's a larger trend also in the background which Swedish researchers have called The Blue Acceleration And that is whatever kind of activity were looking at since the ninety nineties whether that shipping cables energy and so on." }, { "start": 234.21, "end": 245.87, "text": "There was massive increase or activities at sea and the sea isn't many ways getting quite crowded space And we become more and more dependent on what is happening out at sea." }, { "start": 247.17, "end": 256.469, "text": "That implies vulnerabilities, the maritime security agenda it's all about addressing these vulnerabilities." }, { "start": 257.269, "end": 260.75, "text": "Maritime Security is a broad concept of gender." }, { "start": 261.37, "end": 265.929, "text": "discussion in many ways started early two-thousands." }, { "start": 265.969, "end": 268.59, "text": "First was terrorism, maritime terrorism." }, { "start": 268.95, "end": 279.89, "text": "after September eleventh that was the biggest concern and then gradually became issues such as piracy, illicit fishing smuggling of narcotics." }, { "start": 280.57, "end": 283.57, "text": "And these kind of problems were on the agenda." }, { "start": 284.669, "end": 299.669, "text": "today we are very much in this age-of grey zone tactics and that means subsea data cable protection problem such He for maritime security is." }, { "start": 299.909, "end": 304.39, "text": "it's a concept and an agenda that connects other ocean discussions." }, { "start": 305.07, "end": 313.95, "text": "And then includes national security and see power, it includes marine safety in the safety of navigation." }, { "start": 314.349, "end": 322.369, "text": "It includes questions of economy how you can safeguard developing ocean economies but its also about people." }, { "start": 322.869, "end": 325.51, "text": "It's about human security and resilience." }, { "start": 325.89, "end": 347.989, "text": "And in this sense, it is really hard to define maritime security because it connects all of these concerns that are probably the best answer I can give you today as a connector... ...and it captures certain kinds of insecurities at sea that evolve over time whether its terrorism piracy or the current problems of sabotage" }, { "start": 348.75, "end": 354.409, "text": "I see and of course the maritime economy as such is extremely borrowed extremely heterogeneous." }, { "start": 354.489, "end": 358.01, "text": "so it makes sense in a certain way that also the topic of maritime security." }, { "start": 358.849, "end": 361.69, "text": "Is very broad and complex and encompasses many different." }, { "start": 362.309, "end": 362.75, "text": "Aspects." }, { "start": 362.809, "end": 363.729, "text": "Now, you mentioned piracy." }, { "start": 363.789, "end": 376.429, "text": "for example many people have a kind of an idea of shipping and the sea ferris and maybe when they hear piracy They have the idea of classical caribbean pirates like the movies with bandana." }, { "start": 377.25, "end": 380.849, "text": "but it's much more complex And very modern problem as well." }, { "start": 381.89, "end": 384.95, "text": "The contemporary piracy looks different." }, { "start": 385.21, "end": 388.57, "text": "We're basically talking about criminal gangs, organized criminal gangs." }, { "start": 388.75, "end": 390.59, "text": "And then it depends a little bit." }, { "start": 390.77, "end": 397.03, "text": "so the main pirate hotspots are in the Gulf of Guinea, off to coasts of Somalia and then in Southeast Asia." }, { "start": 398.71, "end": 403.19, "text": "The pirates from Somalia became famous for kidnapped and ransom model." }, { "start": 403.849, "end": 411.789, "text": "It was huge problem between two thousand eight and twenty twelve and it was curbed down by an international naval coalition." }, { "start": 412.169, "end": 415.39, "text": "that With broad international participation, Russia was there." }, { "start": 415.469, "end": 419.33, "text": "China was their US Korea Japan the European Union in short." }, { "start": 419.95, "end": 421.75, "text": "so that is super successful In many ways." }, { "start": 422.09, "end": 429.869, "text": "but over the last couple of months we have seen a resurgence Of Somali piracy activities and that's slightly worrying." }, { "start": 430.95, "end": 441.21, "text": "And in other regions in the Gulf of Guinea and Southeast Asia it also has an assistant problem Right now, fortunately at a relatively lower scale." }, { "start": 441.669, "end": 447.25, "text": "So piracy can also mean guys climbing on board of the ship and stealing something." }, { "start": 447.65, "end": 448.909, "text": "it acts off robbery." }, { "start": 449.45, "end": 455.01, "text": "so that continues in quite significant numbers in Southeast Asia for instance." }, { "start": 455.669, "end": 457.63, "text": "That's the current piracy situation." }, { "start": 457.869, "end": 466.07, "text": "It is an important issue under maritime security agenda but gets different amounts of attention depending where the wind currently blows." }, { "start": 466.409, "end": 466.469, "text": "Of" }, { "start": 466.549, "end": 470.989, "text": "course there are this many Issues and problems that are vying for public attention." }, { "start": 471.13, "end": 476.09, "text": "So some things very much in the spotlight while others fall through the cracks." }, { "start": 476.229, "end": 481.01, "text": "now, let me get back to the different aspects of maritime security than you mentioned." }, { "start": 481.09, "end": 487.469, "text": "And there's also smuggling off course drug activities and stuff like that That are also related to criminal activities." }, { "start": 488.21, "end": 492.669, "text": "if it is so broad and so vastly Different why does it still make sense?" }, { "start": 492.77, "end": 499.71, "text": "To talk about maritime security as one concept rather then treating them as separate and independent issues?" }, { "start": 500.77, "end": 505.15, "text": "Well, the key point is that they are interlinked in quite significant ways." }, { "start": 505.369, "end": 512.45, "text": "And security at sea is really different from the land not only because of law of the sea being radically different structured." }, { "start": 513.13, "end": 522.549, "text": "but also we have a challenge on high seas territory belongs to no one or it's a significant portion off our planet." }, { "start": 523.809, "end": 526.43, "text": "many challenges are interlinks." }, { "start": 526.67, "end": 533.79, "text": "If you have a maritime boundary dispute, the likelihood that criminals get active in that area is extremely high." }, { "start": 534.15, "end": 545.829, "text": "And coming back to recent researches of Somali piracy... That's for instance driven by crisis in the Strait of Hormuz and it's driven like this different ways." }, { "start": 546.53, "end": 552.949, "text": "The Strait-of-Hormuz Crisis has led to higher food and energy prices so people in Somalia are poorer." }, { "start": 554.03, "end": 558.689, "text": "The navies that usually operate in counter-piracy operations are busy with something else." }, { "start": 559.97, "end": 567.41, "text": "And then on top of that, the Strait of Hormuz historically has always been used for smuggling operations." }, { "start": 567.79, "end": 572.31, "text": "so it means criminal networks have lost part of their income." }, { "start": 573.13, "end": 579.37, "text": "and here you've three drivers of the current resurgence of piracy activities off the coast of Somalia." }, { "start": 579.91, "end": 584.11, "text": "I think this is a good example how these challenges actually intersect with each other." }, { "start": 584.35, "end": 594.79, "text": "And there are many more of these interlinkages smuggling illicit fishing, extremist organizations feeding on starving coastal communities and so on." }, { "start": 595.43, "end": 601.65, "text": "This is why it's quite important to have this maritime security agenda." }, { "start": 602.41, "end": 604.99, "text": "It's not a reason development." }, { "start": 605.37, "end": 611.31, "text": "the European Union issued its first comprehensive maritime security strategy in twenty fourteen for instance." }, { "start": 611.39, "end": 620.63, "text": "So an evolving discussion that has been with us for twenty-five or at least in this comprehensive sense of the last ten, twelve years." }, { "start": 621.209, "end": 624.89, "text": "But still I find it quite recent if you say that its started early." }, { "start": 624.97, "end": 628.03, "text": "two thousands even to pop up as a topic interest." }, { "start": 628.29, "end": 636.25, "text": "i'm actually surprised they came so late because seems like these issues must have played role one way another before." }, { "start": 637.01, "end": 639.949, "text": "Now, of course these topics are security in the classical sense." }, { "start": 640.01, "end": 644.13, "text": "They're domain or public sector state and most countries." }, { "start": 645.05, "end": 650.17, "text": "one of the quintessential functions is to provide security safety issues." }, { "start": 650.23, "end": 657.61, "text": "now as you mentioned on high seas especially we have a problem that it's not under any national jurisdictions." }, { "start": 657.689, "end": 663.99, "text": "It's not a lawless place, but it is governed by international laws and regulations." }, { "start": 664.15, "end": 670.85, "text": "There are also the issues of policing in the city-neighborhood where there isn't police patrol around everywhere." }, { "start": 671.05, "end": 675.51, "text": "The high seas are vast And we see you mentioned the coasts of Somalia." }, { "start": 675.65, "end": 680.87, "text": "even If you compare it to the Big Oceans, this is a relatively confined area." }, { "start": 681.01, "end": 687.75, "text": "But if we look at distances... It was not easy for that international coalition to police militarily." }, { "start": 688.31, "end": 690.05, "text": "So in that sense where does it belong?" }, { "start": 691.209, "end": 693.87, "text": "Where are these security issues also?" }, { "start": 694.63, "end": 699.61, "text": "The domain or responsibility of private operators and shipping companies" }, { "start": 703.569, "end": 703.63, "text": "etc.?" }, { "start": 704.51, "end": 707.15, "text": "So that is a very important question." }, { "start": 707.47, "end": 710.29, "text": "It's also linked to who should pay for what, right?" }, { "start": 710.63, "end": 716.35, "text": "And historically in particular the shipping industry has been arguing well they are paying taxes." }, { "start": 716.65, "end": 718.209, "text": "actually They don't pay that much taxes." }, { "start": 718.79, "end": 740.829, "text": "so states should provide guarantees and then this can be either done through you know functions as a coastal state As a port state or perhaps most importantly as a flag state under the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, there's also a number of international obligations in terms of addressing piracy and fighting smuggling for instance." }, { "start": 741.03, "end": 758.41, "text": "But in this shift that has come along with maritime security particularly within the twenty-ten years is it clear now that shipping industry Action on its own behalf and many parts of the world where there are high risk areas." }, { "start": 758.53, "end": 771.55, "text": "It's quite common now that ships have armed guards onboard, And the recent piracy incidents also show if you had a armed guard on board You can actually fight the criminal gains off trying to hijack your vessel?" }, { "start": 772.85, "end": 788.81, "text": "Many shipping companies know work with private security companies in one way or other To do risk assessments pay close attention to how self-protective measures can help." }, { "start": 789.63, "end": 800.589, "text": "And that's Southeast Asia, the Red Sea and there is actually quite a close cooperation between NADES and shipping industry with clear understanding of best management." }, { "start": 800.65, "end": 805.41, "text": "practices lie in some level of self protection." }, { "start": 806.31, "end": 823.93, "text": "Same goes for the oil and gas in energy industry where it's also relatively common that states only are they, you know The backup option so to say while the first level of security is done by the companies themselves through surveillance Through working with private security providers things on." }, { "start": 824.51, "end": 827.75, "text": "You mentioned the coalition off the coast of Somalia." }, { "start": 828.15, "end": 834.329, "text": "That was an international coalition including western navies Russians the Chinese and so on and so forth." }, { "start": 834.93, "end": 842.569, "text": "given recent developments in the resurgence, one might say of geopolitical rivalries." }, { "start": 843.29, "end": 848.25, "text": "It seems to me that a coalition like with those actors would not be possible." }, { "start": 848.55, "end": 855.05, "text": "as I know i cannot imagine The US European Navy is working together With the Russian navy for example at this stage." }, { "start": 855.43, "end": 864.15, "text": "has That change and in the geopolitical circumstances made Those kind cooperation more difficult?" }, { "start": 864.209, "end": 874.65, "text": "and hence has the role of this state being reduced when it comes to policing or providing some sort of international maritime security on the high seas?" }, { "start": 875.37, "end": 876.61, "text": "So, the world is clearly changing." }, { "start": 876.709, "end": 887.97, "text": "And my biggest concern was not rivalry between anyone but actually geopolitical fragmentation that you know there were just increasingly being governed in blocks then regional constellations." }, { "start": 891.05, "end": 899.189, "text": "The way that the United Nations can deliver their work as they've done over the last twenty years is increasingly becoming difficult." }, { "start": 900.03, "end": 914.99, "text": "Now maritime security was relatively unique because there's a common interest between all states in terms of trade, planetary risks to collaborate and navies are actually most international among armed forces." }, { "start": 915.31, "end": 921.51, "text": "In an interesting way, all navies around the world have a common enemy And that common enemy is the weather." }, { "start": 923.069, "end": 929.79, "text": "So, and it's not the same for other armed forces so there is a tendency to cooperate more." }, { "start": 930.53, "end": 938.51, "text": "I attend a lot of naval symposia events like this and as sort of like this mantra no state can do on its own." }, { "start": 939.65, "end": 941.11, "text": "There has to be cooperation." }, { "start": 941.51, "end": 942.47, "text": "This still with us." }, { "start": 942.67, "end": 953.87, "text": "how it translates into practice Is little bit different than used But a good example now is this discussion on what kind of military measures we can put in place in the Strait of Hormuz." }, { "start": 954.23, "end": 968.05, "text": "And that's an effort that has currently led by UK, France but also with Italy and Germany in leadership... ...and that isn't all shaping up to be a broad coalition of up to fifty states who want to contribute together." }, { "start": 969.17, "end": 973.41, "text": "Does it include countries that are clearly outside the Western camp?" }, { "start": 973.689, "end": 975.25, "text": "Whatever that means nowadays!" }, { "start": 976.13, "end": 978.53, "text": "For now, it doesn't include China or Russia." }, { "start": 979.31, "end": 980.89, "text": "That has clearly changed." }, { "start": 980.93, "end": 988.05, "text": "but I'm saying this to highlight that in many ways the cooperative spirit is still there and its getting more difficult." }, { "start": 988.67, "end": 1003.05, "text": "Another example throughout last year we had a series of high level debates at UN Security Council And these debates particularly the first one organized by Greece The second one organised by Panama." }, { "start": 1003.67, "end": 1009.189, "text": "We had more than one hundred fifty states that took the floor, and they almost all said the same thing." }, { "start": 1009.49, "end": 1015.709, "text": "You know we have to defend UN Convention on the Law of the Sea... ...we have to get better in information sharing and so on." }, { "start": 1016.29, "end": 1018.67, "text": "So yes geopolitical fragmentation is happening." }, { "start": 1018.99, "end": 1031.389, "text": "at the same time The spirit is still there And that spirit was also based where you bear needs In terms of energy, in terms of digital communication." }, { "start": 1031.49, "end": 1035.99, "text": "This is why the facts that we started our conversation with are so important to keep in mind." }, { "start": 1047.109, "end": 1053.19, "text": "Every episode We ask our guests bring a number into us That relates to the topic Of The talk." }, { "start": 1053.43, "end": 1055.37, "text": "Christian what Is your nautical Number?" }, { "start": 1056.31, "end": 1062.61, "text": "My favorite Nautical numbers that me always say that no one lives at sea But it's actually not the case." }, { "start": 1063.37, "end": 1065.05, "text": "about five million people." }, { "start": 1065.31, "end": 1068.389, "text": "We were on board a cruise line last year." }, { "start": 1068.91, "end": 1091.11, "text": "That's almost like a small state, actually living not permanently at sea but appreciating the sea and it is telling number in terms of how we are using to see more for leisure purposes as well And tells us that we're making this sea a crowded space for holidays or energy purposes." }, { "start": 1092.79, "end": 1095.11, "text": "The cruise ship industry, yes that is a booming industry." }, { "start": 1095.21, "end": 1096.91, "text": "As far as I understand." }, { "start": 1097.01, "end": 1100.51, "text": "so the numbers keep growing and... That's an interesting point!" }, { "start": 1100.57, "end": 1102.09, "text": "And this is fairly new concept." }, { "start": 1102.19, "end": 1110.85, "text": "it was actually invented by a German the head of former head of Haber-Gloyts Albert Ballin who was not the founding figures but one of the key figures." }, { "start": 1110.99, "end": 1118.07, "text": "i believe in the history of Habergloyte the german shipping company and he I think invented this concept about a hundred years ago." }, { "start": 1118.31, "end": 1125.47, "text": "So bit more than you could actually board a ship to get from A to B, but for the sake of the voyage." }, { "start": 1125.889, "end": 1128.19, "text": "Exactly and why does it matter to maritime security?" }, { "start": 1128.45, "end": 1142.149, "text": "I always like this as a case because many people are just not aware that the risks they expose themselves by going on a cruise Because in many ways these ships can be flat in Panama or somewhere." }, { "start": 1142.25, "end": 1153.67, "text": "That means if you go onto a cruise line You enter different territory Many people aren't conscious about And that also means if you wanted to get stolen on board of that shit, well." }, { "start": 1153.75, "end": 1157.35, "text": "You have to file a claim with the police of Panama right?" }, { "start": 1160.83, "end": 1164.05, "text": "That's the Flagstay principle and cruise lines in general." }, { "start": 1164.25, "end": 1165.91, "text": "I think we've been lucky In the past." }, { "start": 1166.55, "end": 1173.59, "text": "there is only two historical incidents where extremist groups have attacked the cruise line or passenger vessels." }, { "start": 1174.91, "end": 1181.51, "text": "It's a risky space We've seen so which can might be outbreak of diseases on board cruise lines." }, { "start": 1181.77, "end": 1188.97, "text": "That's also a disaster waiting to happen, hopefully not in our lifetime but everyone should be aware off the risks that they're actually taking when there going" }, { "start": 1190.55, "end": 1191.129, "text": "their point." }, { "start": 1191.889, "end": 1197.93, "text": "moving a bit closer to home too at least two The Home Of Our Podcasts Which Is In Germany Also?" }, { "start": 1198.03, "end": 1203.03, "text": "They More Local Waters Have Become The Focus Of Concern When It Comes To Maritime Security." }, { "start": 1203.889, "end": 1214.59, "text": "After a series of incidents related to energy and communication cables under the Baltic Seas, NATO launched its Baltic Century operation in early twenty-twenty five." }, { "start": 1214.71, "end": 1217.99, "text": "A closer watch on infrastructure in the Baltics Sea." }, { "start": 1218.71, "end": 1227.53, "text": "Germany sits right at the heart this region as one of the Baltik sea states with major ports there offshore wind industry pipelines so forth." }, { "start": 1228.23, "end": 1234.149, "text": "That was actually a topic that I discussed couple of months ago with your colleague Nele Matslück, who i suppose you know." }, { "start": 1235.11, "end": 1246.129, "text": "And we also talked about the law policing this area outside of what I understand is strictly piracy related issues there." }, { "start": 1246.69, "end": 1254.61, "text": "The nation states do have some rights, but when it comes to these incidents with the shadow fleet in particular where its not quite clear you know What are those ships doing?" }, { "start": 1254.83, "end": 1256.53, "text": "Are they engaging in sabotage?" }, { "start": 1256.649, "end": 1260.47, "text": "Do they pose maybe an environmental risk because their'e well equipped?" }, { "start": 1262.35, "end": 1271.91, "text": "Give us a little bit of an overview in particular when we're looking at the Baltics and increasing tensions between Western European countries, NATO or Russia." }, { "start": 1272.83, "end": 1274.93, "text": "What kind of infrastructure are you talking about there?" }, { "start": 1275.01, "end": 1280.31, "text": "And what is the danger of that infrastructure being dragged into conflict one way or another?" }, { "start": 1281.129, "end": 1285.649, "text": "The first thing to note coming back earlier this time was about the blue acceleration." }, { "start": 1286.69, "end": 1291.27, "text": "This is a direct outcome for us becoming more and more dependent on the sea." }, { "start": 1291.51, "end": 1297.149, "text": "And by us, I mean literally everyone living this planet —and that includes Russia— and all of the other Baltic states." }, { "start": 1297.19, "end": 1312.149, "text": "so... The Baltic is a perfect example for an extremely crowded space undercut with all sorts of infrastructures energy cables data cables wind farms oil-and-gas platforms fishing activities and so on." }, { "start": 1312.69, "end": 1322.25, "text": "It's classic –the more dependent we are becoming– on something the more we're vulnerable And this has brought us the critical maritime infrastructure protection agenda." }, { "start": 1323.35, "end": 1331.09, "text": "It's a relatively broad agenda linked to what kind of infrastructures are actually critical and which ones not?" }, { "start": 1331.61, "end": 1337.149, "text": "Yes, cables have been cut in the Baltic Sea but no one has ever lost their internet connection." }, { "start": 1337.41, "end": 1338.649, "text": "so let's keep that in mind." }, { "start": 1339.07, "end": 1341.45, "text": "We're now at the age of grey zone activities." }, { "start": 1341.59, "end": 1349.97, "text": "The culture is quite useful because it tells us that we're in a space where different blacks and whites are involved." }, { "start": 1350.11, "end": 1364.629, "text": "And one of them is the distinction between war-and peace, One of them has the distinctions between legal and illegal... ...one of which is the difference between accidents and sabotage." }, { "start": 1365.27, "end": 1378.55, "text": "All these events have happened at the Baltic Sea or very difficult to classify Particularly the cable cuts, where they actually deliver sabotage or were there just an outcome of a sea man ship and accident?" }, { "start": 1379.129, "end": 1380.75, "text": "This is extremely difficult to determine." }, { "start": 1381.47, "end": 1387.49, "text": "And many of their issues on the maritime security agenda are now taking this character." }, { "start": 1387.93, "end": 1391.129, "text": "so the age of gray salt is very much without snow." }, { "start": 1391.91, "end": 1404.21, "text": "The other thing that I find quite interesting about the Baltic Sea also how states Now increasingly move towards developing maritime security solutions on the level of regional seas." }, { "start": 1404.73, "end": 1407.629, "text": "That's a very, really good and interesting development." }, { "start": 1408.11, "end": 1413.31, "text": "it however raises the question off do we need solutions under European level?" }, { "start": 1413.57, "end": 1421.67, "text": "Do you need solution over NATO level or do We need solutions for the Mediterranean For the North Sea for the Baltic sea for the South Atlantic and so forth?" }, { "start": 1422.03, "end": 1425.03, "text": "So this tension is not easily to be resolved." }, { "start": 1425.93, "end": 1429.17, "text": "Final point Yes, NATO has sent a operation there." }, { "start": 1429.33, "end": 1440.09, "text": "But if it comes to critical maritime infrastructure protection what the military can do is actually very limited and this is why this operation is primarily about." }, { "start": 1440.71, "end": 1442.55, "text": "they offer deterrents." }, { "start": 1443.49, "end": 1455.389, "text": "but so much of what needs to be done in resilience space requires costals that require industry action." }, { "start": 1455.93, "end": 1459.53, "text": "that requires some degree of private security as well." }, { "start": 1459.97, "end": 1468.05, "text": "Because the most important response to threats, to subsidy data cables is not a Navy response." }, { "start": 1468.55, "end": 1470.59, "text": "it's just to build more cables all right?" }, { "start": 1470.79, "end": 1481.49, "text": "The more cables you have the less they impact on one of them failing whether that's through sabotage or through an accident .The next day I repair then quickly." }, { "start": 1481.889, "end": 1486.21, "text": "That also another Navy task and industry mystery question and so on." }, { "start": 1486.29, "end": 1492.73, "text": "So much of that agenda is actually about resilience, industry and your enforcement agencies working together." }, { "start": 1493.97, "end": 1497.69, "text": "Yeah redundancy more cables then you know it doesn't really matter." }, { "start": 1498.129, "end": 1500.75, "text": "now with cables maybe thats easier than other things." }, { "start": 1500.83, "end": 1505.43, "text": "pipelines I assume are more difficult to build because they're expensive." }, { "start": 1505.649, "end": 1507.61, "text": "probably more difficult construct in redundancy." }, { "start": 1507.95, "end": 1512.25, "text": "we have the one famous example a North Stream pipeline that was blown up." }, { "start": 1512.37, "end": 1515.19, "text": "I mean, it wasn't being used for other purposes anyway." }, { "start": 1515.33, "end": 1523.87, "text": "but still if you talk about pipelines such as this one its not easy to say well let's just build five six or seven in parallel and then we're good." }, { "start": 1524.11, "end": 1528.33, "text": "so is there the solution of every issue when it comes under water infrastructure?" }, { "start": 1529.37, "end": 1531.21, "text": "The North Stream case is really interesting." }, { "start": 1531.99, "end": 1538.97, "text": "first off all what important to recognize is no total security or total protection like they will always be erased." }, { "start": 1539.71, "end": 1544.01, "text": "one of these infrastructures either breaks down or is being attacked and so on." }, { "start": 1544.649, "end": 1549.43, "text": "And that's then, you know it requires a careful management of energies right?" }, { "start": 1549.53, "end": 1555.55, "text": "So that your not fully dependent on the single piece infrastructure in which you don't distinguish ones earlier." }, { "start": 1556.25, "end": 1560.25, "text": "The other one that was really interesting and often does not get any attention than should." }, { "start": 1561.31, "end": 1572.35, "text": "everything we now about how this incident carried out points to small leisure yachts being used to carry out the attack." }, { "start": 1574.23, "end": 1583.09, "text": "Now, how good are we in Europe or in the North Sea and the Baltic Sea actually monitoring small vessels?" }, { "start": 1583.97, "end": 1585.55, "text": "The answer is quite shocking right!" }, { "start": 1586.149, "end": 1590.25, "text": "We do not monitor smaller vessels and leather craft." }, { "start": 1590.81, "end": 1596.55, "text": "it's totally legal to kind of like carrying no equipment to report to anyone." }, { "start": 1598.25, "end": 1600.03, "text": "That is usually not part of the discussion." }, { "start": 1600.09, "end": 1612.91, "text": "The entire question of how a small yacht or smaller vessels being used and it's one after key gaps in their entire maritime security discussion, I wish more people would pay attention to that." }, { "start": 1613.47, "end": 1617.25, "text": "Another issue you mentioned was the topic resilience or redundancy?" }, { "start": 1617.889, "end": 1620.389, "text": "You also mention course infrastructure itself." }, { "start": 1621.09, "end": 1631.09, "text": "for example they belong to companies in international waters or on the seabed of international waters." }, { "start": 1631.33, "end": 1634.57, "text": "So, that jurisdiction question is also I guess a bit unclear." }, { "start": 1634.629, "end": 1638.629, "text": "and the questions you know whose responsibility it's actually because you said redundancy?" }, { "start": 1638.73, "end": 1640.11, "text": "And off course private enterprises." }, { "start": 1640.27, "end": 1651.05, "text": "while redundancy may make sense on the societal level from the perspective of an individual operator redundancy Is first and foremost costly so It May Not Be Done!" }, { "start": 1651.75, "end": 1662.07, "text": "Is That An Area For Regulation for example that The Countries Should Demand infrastructure providers to cater for a specific degree of redundancy, for example." }, { "start": 1662.11, "end": 1673.05, "text": "To ensure that they are able to maintain the service level defined in particular way even if something happens and then you said it can be an accident or deliberate act of sabotage?" }, { "start": 1673.149, "end": 1682.53, "text": "Or could also be I don't know technical failure... Something else would happen with cable that breaks completely different reasons without any external impact." }, { "start": 1683.17, "end": 1690.53, "text": "Yeah, the area of threats to underwater infrastructure is really broad and sea quakes are one of their main challenges." }, { "start": 1691.81, "end": 1695.05, "text": "You cannot do anything about that or you can try to predict it." }, { "start": 1695.55, "end": 1708.889, "text": "So SC Data Catering Protection is actually a beautiful example for what we discussed – The question of international cooperation in how this change and which degree still there compared with the nineteen nineties." }, { "start": 1709.55, "end": 1719.57, "text": "I find it quite surprising and astonishing at the level of international initiatives that we now have to work towards improving cable protection." }, { "start": 1720.129, "end": 1727.53, "text": "Two years ago there was a New York Declaration, led by G-Seven – a lot of states signed up for that and that was their commitment to do more." }, { "start": 1728.21, "end": 1733.73, "text": "Europe has in the meantime a subsea cable protection action plan which is really well funded." }, { "start": 1734.25, "end": 1744.889, "text": "Singapore just launched an International Initiative To Harmonize how countries regulate subsidy data cables, but also criminalised behaviour." }, { "start": 1745.389, "end": 1746.29, "text": "That's very important." }, { "start": 1746.649, "end": 1762.61, "text": "The International Cable Protection Committee, the ICPC and that is a main industry body issuing guidelines for states and laying out best practices of how to safeguard them formed an international advisory group together with the International Telecommunication Union." }, { "start": 1762.93, "end": 1768.97, "text": "Also the European Action Service has made this priority issue under kayak colors." }, { "start": 1769.33, "end": 1782.41, "text": "So it's remarkable how much is actually happening on the international front and to some degree I wish that would be the case for other issues of maritime security agenda as well, if you can see smuggling or illicit fishing." }, { "start": 1783.77, "end": 1791.29, "text": "Let's talk a little bit about the rules-based order at sea, which is I think it its core defined in The Unclos Convention." }, { "start": 1791.35, "end": 1804.31, "text": "Which came into force In the early nineteen eighties and of course there are A lot Of other treaties And sets of regulation around It or in addition to that some relatively old Some fairly new such as the BB&J treaty That just came Into force." }, { "start": 1804.87, "end": 1812.61, "text": "but generally speaking Are we actually progress in when it comes to rules-based order at sea or is not quite the opposite?" }, { "start": 1812.67, "end": 1813.47, "text": "we're retreating." }, { "start": 1813.75, "end": 1838.55, "text": "We see more and more incidences where that order isn't being respected, whether its those incidents as I just talked about with Baltic weather recent closure of the Strait of Hormuz Now subsequent attempts to maybe set up a toll booth there, which then let other countries think well we also have some strays where we could implement the similar system and make money." }, { "start": 1839.03, "end": 1849.47, "text": "So isn't the international rules-based order at sea at least strained or even severely broken?" }, { "start": 1851.41, "end": 1855.389, "text": "So there's a lot of misunderstandings if it comes to the concept of the rules-based order." }, { "start": 1855.57, "end": 1863.03, "text": "But first and more, The German philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein already told us that every rule doesn't contain the rule on how it should be applied." }, { "start": 1863.35, "end": 1868.81, "text": "That means any rule is sold into interpretation And also changes over time." }, { "start": 1869.25, "end": 1871.129, "text": "what kind of expectations we have?" }, { "start": 1871.37, "end": 1872.889, "text": "How are the rules supposed to apply?" }, { "start": 1873.149, "end": 1878.53, "text": "This case for all legal treaties was also in conventional law of the sea." }, { "start": 1879.29, "end": 1885.31, "text": "Importantly UN Convention on the Law of the Sea is one treaty among many." }, { "start": 1886.129, "end": 1904.09, "text": "You have alluded to it, and if you actually pay more attention... ...to the true thicket of international conventions and treaties then we are getting more rules rather than less and less And that largely happens in the framework of the International Maritime Organization." }, { "start": 1905.01, "end": 1909.51, "text": "The amount of new regulations they actually have past over the last twenty years is quite impressed." }, { "start": 1909.75, "end": 1917.03, "text": "Environmental regime, but it's also humanitarian concerns to rights at sea are increasingly a recognized issue." }, { "start": 1917.129, "end": 1922.129, "text": "whether its seafarers migration and whose line workers spend ends all." }, { "start": 1922.53, "end": 1924.389, "text": "so there's actually a lot of things developing." }, { "start": 1924.45, "end": 1925.69, "text": "we're getting more and more rules." }, { "start": 1926.629, "end": 1930.43, "text": "The big question is considering the blue acceleration." }, { "start": 1930.59, "end": 1932.91, "text": "Are we doing enough than fast in us?" }, { "start": 1933.61, "end": 1943.97, "text": "because Good space order doesn't only mean following rules or engaging in contestation over how they should be applied, but also developing new rules." }, { "start": 1944.43, "end": 1947.09, "text": "And what the strata for most crisis I think tells us?" }, { "start": 1947.43, "end": 1965.35, "text": "we have been a little bit lazy if not sloppy to develop new rules of how states should be governed and laws as naval warfare questions off humanitarian international humanitarian law questions of how, what is responsible and legitimate use of natal minds?" }, { "start": 1965.69, "end": 1967.25, "text": "These are all open question." }, { "start": 1967.43, "end": 1975.129, "text": "And we're now seeing that we have been very sloppy over since the incremental law of the sea entered into force in nineteen ninety four." }, { "start": 1975.17, "end": 1980.03, "text": "to progress and develop rules anticipating such situations could arise." }, { "start": 1981.45, "end": 1987.69, "text": "for me it's also not a very important point to learn from this data from those two pain more systematically." }, { "start": 1988.27, "end": 1993.67, "text": "attention through the question Where are actually the gaps, where is a future crisis?" }, { "start": 1994.37, "end": 2001.29, "text": "moments that we need to anticipate and then start crafting both rules but also institutions can manage these challenges." }, { "start": 2001.629, "end": 2016.629, "text": "This brings us back to security council in UN debates that it's absolutely vital there as poor mechanism too get towards shared understanding between states but also to address norm deficits and reinterpret the rules." }, { "start": 2017.43, "end": 2018.19, "text": "I understand, of course." }, { "start": 2018.25, "end": 2029.47, "text": "The rules are the rules and then interpretation or application is something very different that can be hotly debated at least in case national jurisdiction usually decided by courts." }, { "start": 2031.23, "end": 2038.649, "text": "but wouldn't you say there's a material difference maybe not just confined to maritime law but international rule?" }, { "start": 2040.55, "end": 2044.97, "text": "Even twenty thirty years ago International actors were frequently breaking international law." }, { "start": 2045.21, "end": 2071.97, "text": "For sure, that's nothing new but at least there was by most players the attempt to either get international buy-in for example through UN Security mandate in an act of war or pretend in one way or another, even if it's like a flawed argumentation that whatever the country was doing was somehow within the confines of international order and international rules and regulations." }, { "start": 2072.15, "end": 2088.53, "text": "Now when we're looking at actual current conflict in the state of Homoos neither Iran nor US do even pretend to care about international orders or international laws just not being taken into account as you mentioned isn't difference." }, { "start": 2088.65, "end": 2091.91, "text": "And I know that the U S, i think it's not a party of the uncles treatment." }, { "start": 2092.07, "end": 2094.95, "text": "so there is legal differentiation here." }, { "start": 2095.07, "end": 2103.15, "text": "but still this conceptual change from oh at least try to pretend that im following international law too?" }, { "start": 2103.63, "end": 2104.29, "text": "I don't care at all!" }, { "start": 2104.71, "end": 2106.37, "text": "Isn´t that shift we are witnessing?" }, { "start": 2106.81, "end": 2108.27, "text": "This is the trap for presentism." }, { "start": 2108.45, "end": 2115.41, "text": "We always thing you know... The moment where were living right now somehow special and different than what has been in past." }, { "start": 2115.75, "end": 2121.61, "text": "Yes, the world is changing and but in the end only future historians will tell how significant these shifts actually were." }, { "start": 2121.99, "end": 2123.11, "text": "And it's not true." }, { "start": 2123.45, "end": 2135.19, "text": "Iran makes a lot of effort trying to present its approach through the Strait of Hormuz In a way that follows UN clause But also their earlier treaties." }, { "start": 2135.43, "end": 2147.51, "text": "They're making lots of efforts on this Not at the beginning This is at the centre then or arguing They changed their wording to respond the law of the sea and so on." }, { "start": 2148.39, "end": 2156.05, "text": "The United States has made a lot effort in arguing that they're naval blockade is legitimate, and follows the laws of naval" }, { "start": 2156.11, "end": 2156.55, "text": "warfare.\"." }, { "start": 2157.11, "end": 2165.61, "text": "The US had a couple times tried via Bahrain together with Security Council Resolution for the Strait of Hormuz and the Iran crisis." }, { "start": 2166.41, "end": 2168.43, "text": "If you would be right why wouldn't they bother?" }, { "start": 2169.11, "end": 2173.55, "text": "Right if it's actually the case that international institutions are an International Law doesn't matter." }, { "start": 2173.63, "end": 2174.67, "text": "and why bother?" }, { "start": 2174.87, "end": 2179.99, "text": "you know even kind of i justify in the blockade while trying to have a security cost resolution ends." }, { "start": 2180.33, "end": 2183.19, "text": "so this is very much alive as space." }, { "start": 2183.35, "end": 2191.89, "text": "it has become more complicated yes because of your political fragmentation that has come back or there's an new wave of having that but he does not apply." }, { "start": 2191.97, "end": 2194.19, "text": "that international law is no meaningless." }, { "start": 2195.01, "end": 2199.09, "text": "This is like diplomacy, you know and this how we do international relations." }, { "start": 2199.29, "end": 2208.69, "text": "There's the military there's diplomacy in this law And that's trade and these are four core instruments of how International relations being done right?" }, { "start": 2209.19, "end": 2215.17, "text": "Yeah I mean i agree That off course only historians will be able to tell In The future what kind Of times We were living in." }, { "start": 2215.25, "end": 2224.27, "text": "and then I also agree that We should be very careful in not using terms such as unprecedented, which is often thrown around with an unprecedented times of turmoil." }, { "start": 2224.95, "end": 2237.05, "text": "That's probably not true if you compare it to other periods and history that were much more violent into a much more uncomfortable for people living those times than what we live now at least from the most part off the population." }, { "start": 2237.11, "end": 2242.23, "text": "but still let me make one distinction And I think that this is true At least as far as it comes through us." }, { "start": 2242.75, "end": 2245.85, "text": "then maybe true when your much more into details than i am." }, { "start": 2246.25, "end": 2249.81, "text": "I think it is happening on a much lower, maybe technical level." }, { "start": 2263.53, "end": 2264.97, "text": "previous Gulf Wars, for example." }, { "start": 2265.03, "end": 2269.83, "text": "That did happen to President George W Bush and his ministers or secretaries." }, { "start": 2269.99, "end": 2276.87, "text": "they made a very public effort themselves to promote this idea that there were within the confines of international law?" }, { "start": 2276.95, "end": 2278.23, "text": "And that has changed" }, { "start": 2279.27, "end": 2279.67, "text": "absolutely." }, { "start": 2279.93, "end": 2281.25, "text": "in that sense you're right!" }, { "start": 2281.81, "end": 2292.95, "text": "The phenomenon is the decline of US budget money freedom of navigation and maritime security." }, { "start": 2293.81, "end": 2295.65, "text": "for decades has been the U.S." }, { "start": 2295.75, "end": 2297.13, "text": "Navy in the US Coast Guard." }, { "start": 2297.93, "end": 2313.25, "text": "that role is now gone, we are moving from this space relatively clearly governed by a Hedgerborn that loves international law when you're moving to a sea-space more fragmented or contestant." }, { "start": 2314.37, "end": 2320.39, "text": "We have lost the champion of preaching a certain version of the UN Convention on the Law of the States." }, { "start": 2320.65, "end": 2332.75, "text": "And, if you think about some of their attacks by US on merchant vessels... I mean they killed three Indian seafarers as part of enforcing the blockade and claimed that it was lawful." }, { "start": 2333.19, "end": 2339.97, "text": "They've killed more than two hundred people on vessel which are accused carrying narcotics into the U.S." }, { "start": 2341.73, "end": 2349.75, "text": "love to see scholars from the United States have been defending this has being lawful because it has to be interpreted as an act of war and daddy daddy" }, { "start": 2354.21, "end": 2355.27, "text": "navigators table." }, { "start": 2360.47, "end": 2365.97, "text": "Especially if we're talking about important international topics, complicated issues crisis." }, { "start": 2366.29, "end": 2373.69, "text": "We need to be well nourished so that's why we ask our guests bring some restaurant or bar recommendation for us." }, { "start": 2373.77, "end": 2378.93, "text": "can any place around the world something is somehow related to Maritime World disease?" }, { "start": 2379.29, "end": 2382.87, "text": "Christian what your recommendations are?" }, { "start": 2384.43, "end": 2388.93, "text": "Three years ago, I started to spend my winters in the beautiful island of Mauritius." }, { "start": 2389.17, "end": 2395.67, "text": "In Western Indian Ocean because the winter's in Denmark are harsh colds and unbearable." }, { "start": 2396.21, "end": 2400.97, "text": "So everyone should make it through the beautiful Island of Mauritsias in particular in the European Winter." }, { "start": 2401.95, "end": 2419.17, "text": "One of my favorite spots is a tiny barbecue place on east coast Of Mauritia very close to Apostola for yet And they serve fantastic fresh seafood over lunchtime and whenever you make it to Mauritius, You really have to go there." }, { "start": 2419.37, "end": 2424.41, "text": "And enjoy the view of amazing seafood that they are serving here!" }, { "start": 2426.13, "end": 2428.65, "text": "We've already come to end our episode." }, { "start": 2428.71, "end": 2444.39, "text": "we haven't been able touch upon all these issues which was kind-of clear from the beginning when Christen mentioned how vastly complex this field is but were able fundamentally important for the world that we live in." }, { "start": 2444.61, "end": 2482.77, "text": "Christian, thank you very much And don't forget to check out the show notes and more information about The German Maritime Center at maritimemetals.de." } ]