[
  {
    "start": 1.04,
    "end": 6.8,
    "text": "Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed, the podcast for testers, developers and software"
  },
  {
    "start": 6.9,
    "end": 9.52,
    "text": "makers who live quality as an attitude."
  },
  {
    "start": 10.42,
    "end": 16.62,
    "text": "Get fresh ideas and sharp insights to grow your mindset, to learn new methods and to"
  },
  {
    "start": 16.72,
    "end": 19.28,
    "text": "drive real change in how we build software."
  },
  {
    "start": 20.0,
    "end": 23.0,
    "text": "Better software and better teams for a better world."
  },
  {
    "start": 32.2,
    "end": 36.24,
    "text": "Hi I'm Richie, software quality coach, keynote speaker and author."
  },
  {
    "start": 36.68,
    "end": 38.66,
    "text": "My guest today is Kat Obring."
  },
  {
    "start": 39.44,
    "end": 43.12,
    "text": "Kat brings more than 20 years of experience in the software industry."
  },
  {
    "start": 43.74,
    "end": 49.98,
    "text": "She has worked as a DevOps QA engineer, head of delivery, and today she teaches teams and"
  },
  {
    "start": 49.98,
    "end": 52.58,
    "text": "how to measurably improve their quality."
  },
  {
    "start": 54.2,
    "end": 57.8,
    "text": "What makes her unique is her mix of practical frameworks"
  },
  {
    "start": 58.2,
    "end": 61.24,
    "text": "and her coaching approach and her sense of humor."
  },
  {
    "start": 62.1,
    "end": 65.92,
    "text": "In this episode, we talked about the tester as an influencer."
  },
  {
    "start": 66.98,
    "end": 70.0,
    "text": "Why should testers stop saying \"everything is broken\""
  },
  {
    "start": 70.62,
    "end": 73.64,
    "text": "and instead learn to speak the language of their stakeholders?"
  },
  {
    "start": 75.0,
    "end": 78.979,
    "text": "How can a 15-second check before a stand-up save weeks"
  },
  {
    "start": 78.98,
    "end": 85.52,
    "text": "frustration later in the sprint. And why are small experiments often more"
  },
  {
    "start": 85.82,
    "end": 92.2,
    "text": "powerful than big transformational programs? We explored in this episode how"
  },
  {
    "start": 92.32,
    "end": 97.64,
    "text": "testers can influence without authority, how evidence creates trust, and how tiny"
  },
  {
    "start": 97.78,
    "end": 102.66,
    "text": "changes can build lasting habits. You will hear concrete steps and can try"
  },
  {
    "start": 102.66,
    "end": 106.68,
    "text": "right away in your dream. And now enjoy the episode."
  },
  {
    "start": 108.74,
    "end": 110.64,
    "text": "Hello Kat, nice to have you here on the show."
  },
  {
    "start": 111.9,
    "end": 113.34,
    "text": "Hi Richie, thanks for inviting me."
  },
  {
    "start": 113.98,
    "end": 115.96,
    "text": "Yeah, it's a pleasure for me to have you here."
  },
  {
    "start": 117.52,
    "end": 123.1,
    "text": "Because also you have a very interesting topic and I'm very curious, what will you"
  },
  {
    "start": 123.62,
    "end": 129.86,
    "text": "tell us here about the testers? Because we gave it somewhere the title \"The tester as an influencer\"."
  },
  {
    "start": 130.899,
    "end": 134.14,
    "text": "Yeah, it's very social media appropriate, isn't it?"
  },
  {
    "start": 134.4,
    "end": 137.64,
    "text": "Yeah, it's true. So what do you mean with that?"
  },
  {
    "start": 138.7,
    "end": 144.28,
    "text": "Well, I think what I mean by that is that I think this is true for most roles in modern"
  },
  {
    "start": 144.48,
    "end": 150.22,
    "text": "software development, but for testers specifically, is if you want to do your job well, and if you want"
  },
  {
    "start": 150.38,
    "end": 157.04,
    "text": "to actually help the team create great quality, because quality is such a broad topic, you need"
  },
  {
    "start": 156.98,
    "end": 159.06,
    "text": "You need to be able to influence people."
  },
  {
    "start": 159.18,
    "end": 163.04,
    "text": "You need to be able to make yourself heard and to get people to actually take"
  },
  {
    "start": 163.26,
    "end": 166.84,
    "text": "seriously what you say and to act upon what you say."
  },
  {
    "start": 167.12,
    "end": 167.3,
    "text": "Right."
  },
  {
    "start": 167.48,
    "end": 170.46,
    "text": "So and I think that is kind of where I'm coming from."
  },
  {
    "start": 170.78,
    "end": 172.62,
    "text": "OK, so it's yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 172.84,
    "end": 176.54,
    "text": "OK, I can't imagine because also we as a tester have a lot of"
  },
  {
    "start": 177.68,
    "end": 183.38,
    "text": "contacts in the whole stakeholder area, much more typically than other roles in that."
  },
  {
    "start": 184.76,
    "end": 185.54,
    "text": "Yes, absolutely."
  },
  {
    "start": 185.94,
    "end": 191.98,
    "text": "I think the other part of that is you need to be able to talk to your audience, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 192.94,
    "end": 197.9,
    "text": "And your audience can, like you say, it can be quite different. You can be talking to quite"
  },
  {
    "start": 198.08,
    "end": 202.84,
    "text": "different stakeholders. They're all stakeholders in some way or another. The engineers you work"
  },
  {
    "start": 202.92,
    "end": 208.82,
    "text": "with, the product owners you work with, maybe you work with other teams, maybe you have a DevOps or"
  },
  {
    "start": 210.5,
    "end": 216.94,
    "text": "ops team, right? And they all will probably value different things and they have different"
  },
  {
    "start": 218.1,
    "end": 224.42,
    "text": "goals for their teams that are most important to them. And you need to be able to package"
  },
  {
    "start": 224.92,
    "end": 231.96,
    "text": "your message in a way that it lands with them. And again, that is something where we, I think,"
  },
  {
    "start": 232.04,
    "end": 238.0,
    "text": "can learn a little bit from the influencer space. Yeah. And can you give us some examples on how to"
  },
  {
    "start": 237.94,
    "end": 242.16,
    "text": "communicate with, you said to address the values from the stakeholders."
  },
  {
    "start": 242.25,
    "end": 246.3,
    "text": "Do you have any examples for that, for developers, maybe for managers?"
  },
  {
    "start": 247.3,
    "end": 247.52,
    "text": "Yes."
  },
  {
    "start": 248.28,
    "end": 252.24,
    "text": "So I think, I think it all starts with being clear who you're talking to."
  },
  {
    "start": 253.08,
    "end": 257.959,
    "text": "So you don't go out there and repeat just the same message to everybody."
  },
  {
    "start": 258.37,
    "end": 262.06,
    "text": "And I think sometimes people have a little bit of a tendency to just walk"
  },
  {
    "start": 262.2,
    "end": 266.5,
    "text": "around as testers and say, my God, the quality of, you know, this release is"
  },
  {
    "start": 266.38,
    "end": 270.2,
    "text": "horrible no matter who they talk to and that's not wrong maybe it is indeed"
  },
  {
    "start": 270.26,
    "end": 274.52,
    "text": "horrible but that is not likely to land with people because what are people"
  },
  {
    "start": 274.54,
    "end": 279.52,
    "text": "going to do with that so I think the first step is always trying to"
  },
  {
    "start": 279.66,
    "end": 284.26,
    "text": "understand who you are talking to trying to understand what matters to them what"
  },
  {
    "start": 284.34,
    "end": 290.06,
    "text": "do they really care about right now bad quality is something that hurts the"
  },
  {
    "start": 290.1,
    "end": 295.0,
    "text": "business but how does it hurt this particular person right what is the"
  },
  {
    "start": 294.86,
    "end": 301.08,
    "text": "impact on this person or on the team that this person works with? Is it maybe"
  },
  {
    "start": 301.28,
    "end": 305.94,
    "text": "for developers, is it more time they need to spend in fixing bug and in context"
  },
  {
    "start": 306.08,
    "end": 310.9,
    "text": "switching because they will have to do work with that? Is it maybe on the other"
  },
  {
    "start": 311.02,
    "end": 315.68,
    "text": "hand that a new feature isn't going to be adopted by users because it is hard"
  },
  {
    "start": 315.78,
    "end": 321.26,
    "text": "to use or they can't find it or it is very buggy? Or is it maybe that the"
  },
  {
    "start": 321.22,
    "end": 327.06,
    "text": "The marketing team cannot meet their goals because people are not signing up at the rate"
  },
  {
    "start": 327.06,
    "end": 330.4,
    "text": "they want to, again, maybe because the sign up flow isn't great."
  },
  {
    "start": 331.72,
    "end": 338.62,
    "text": "So all of these people care about slightly different manifestations of what we find."
  },
  {
    "start": 339.8,
    "end": 341.52,
    "text": "And it may be the same bugs we're talking about."
  },
  {
    "start": 341.92,
    "end": 342.46,
    "text": "Yeah. Right."
  },
  {
    "start": 342.67,
    "end": 344.58,
    "text": "But they have different impact on different teams."
  },
  {
    "start": 344.58,
    "end": 346.12,
    "text": "And I think that is really important."
  },
  {
    "start": 346.52,
    "end": 346.64,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 346.9,
    "end": 352.18,
    "text": "to get aware of this too, that we have to talk to the different stakeholders"
  },
  {
    "start": 352.51,
    "end": 360.02,
    "text": "in a different way just to make a relationship also to them and then to bring out our topics"
  },
  {
    "start": 360.12,
    "end": 361.42,
    "text": "we want to address with them."
  },
  {
    "start": 362.419,
    "end": 363.5,
    "text": "Exactly, exactly."
  },
  {
    "start": 365.22,
    "end": 368.86,
    "text": "And that is why I always said you need to start by understanding who you're talking to"
  },
  {
    "start": 369.02,
    "end": 373.68,
    "text": "and then you need to frame whatever it is you want to say, whatever problem it is you want to present,"
  },
  {
    "start": 373.94,
    "end": 377.32,
    "text": "You need to frame it in a way that matters to the person you talk to."
  },
  {
    "start": 378.14,
    "end": 385.12,
    "text": "And then as a next step, I always like to bring a little bit of evidence rather than my opinion."
  },
  {
    "start": 385.48,
    "end": 393.48,
    "text": "Right. So I can say, I don't know, the sign up flow is broken, but I think to a product owner,"
  },
  {
    "start": 393.78,
    "end": 398.66,
    "text": "it is much more interesting if I can go there and say, look, you know, this button doesn't work on"
  },
  {
    "start": 398.5,
    "end": 401.3,
    "text": "on Safari, 20% of our users use Safari."
  },
  {
    "start": 401.35,
    "end": 403.96,
    "text": "So that means we're losing 20% of our users"
  },
  {
    "start": 404.24,
    "end": 406.76,
    "text": "every time somebody on Safari, you know,"
  },
  {
    "start": 406.84,
    "end": 407.66,
    "text": "go through this flow."
  },
  {
    "start": 409.0,
    "end": 410.5,
    "text": "That is no longer my opinion."
  },
  {
    "start": 410.7,
    "end": 413.48,
    "text": "That is something that is based in evidence."
  },
  {
    "start": 414.26,
    "end": 416.36,
    "text": "And I think, again, that makes it much easier"
  },
  {
    "start": 416.99,
    "end": 419.84,
    "text": "to convince people that this observation"
  },
  {
    "start": 420.7,
    "end": 422.0,
    "text": "should trigger an action."
  },
  {
    "start": 423.84,
    "end": 427.779,
    "text": "- Yeah, I think this is one part we often mention"
  },
  {
    "start": 427.78,
    "end": 433.34,
    "text": "not enough as a tester because also when dealing with developers and presenting bugs to them,"
  },
  {
    "start": 433.82,
    "end": 435.82,
    "text": "we are often so happy that we find bugs."
  },
  {
    "start": 440.98,
    "end": 447.22,
    "text": "But they are not very happy to fix bugs and debug the stuff and so on. So to get one language"
  },
  {
    "start": 448.64,
    "end": 451.5,
    "text": "that they can take it is very, very crucial, I think."
  },
  {
    "start": 452.66,
    "end": 457.22,
    "text": "Yes, absolutely. And I think one language isn't enough, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 457.28,
    "end": 457.4,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 459.22,
    "end": 462.94,
    "text": "You kind of need a slightly different language for the different roles and the different people"
  },
  {
    "start": 462.94,
    "end": 468.66,
    "text": "you talk to. Now, I am all in favor of being clear about your language and meaning the same"
  },
  {
    "start": 468.84,
    "end": 473.9,
    "text": "things when you use certain words. That is definitely something the team should agree on."
  },
  {
    "start": 475.12,
    "end": 480.6,
    "text": "So I don't particularly care if a team's definition of, I don't know, a test level"
  },
  {
    "start": 481.7,
    "end": 488.2,
    "text": "necessarily alliance with any of the bigger test systems out there."
  },
  {
    "start": 489.33,
    "end": 493.1,
    "text": "But I do care that they mean the same thing when they say integration test."
  },
  {
    "start": 494.78,
    "end": 495.78,
    "text": "Yeah, that's true."
  },
  {
    "start": 495.9,
    "end": 496.32,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 497.78,
    "end": 497.96,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 498.24,
    "end": 505.52,
    "text": "And I think it's one part to be in a relationship with someone and"
  },
  {
    "start": 506.82,
    "end": 511.3,
    "text": "and get contact about their values and can deliver my message."
  },
  {
    "start": 511.78,
    "end": 517.14,
    "text": "But to go more to influencing, it's a step more, I think, isn't it?"
  },
  {
    "start": 518.68,
    "end": 522.58,
    "text": "Yes, so I think then the next part is,"
  },
  {
    "start": 522.77,
    "end": 524.34,
    "text": "so you are talking to this person,"
  },
  {
    "start": 524.34,
    "end": 527.64,
    "text": "you have found an angle of a problem that you think matters to them,"
  },
  {
    "start": 527.93,
    "end": 530.22,
    "text": "you have some actual evidence to present."
  },
  {
    "start": 530.87,
    "end": 535.619,
    "text": "And I think it is a good idea then to think about a small change we can make"
  },
  {
    "start": 535.82,
    "end": 540.38,
    "text": "to fix this problem. And I'm very much about small changes."
  },
  {
    "start": 541.2,
    "end": 547.9,
    "text": "So I'm not a huge fan of the 6 or 12 or 18 month quality transformation."
  },
  {
    "start": 549.6,
    "end": 553.44,
    "text": "I'm not saying those things are not well meant and well thought out."
  },
  {
    "start": 553.62,
    "end": 558.16,
    "text": "They often are and they often have very well established goals"
  },
  {
    "start": 558.54,
    "end": 561.38,
    "text": "that would probably actually improve the outcome."
  },
  {
    "start": 561.82,
    "end": 563.88,
    "text": "Right. So that's not what I'm saying."
  },
  {
    "start": 563.88,
    "end": 572.26,
    "text": "But what I'm saying is I think it is very hard for people to get excited about something that you need to a start blindly believing that it's going to make things better."
  },
  {
    "start": 573.64,
    "end": 581.14,
    "text": "And to do things and continue doing things where you only see the effect of them a long way in the future."
  },
  {
    "start": 581.66,
    "end": 584.88,
    "text": "And actually in the short term, it may make your life harder."
  },
  {
    "start": 585.16,
    "end": 587.3,
    "text": "So it's very hard to get buy in for those things."
  },
  {
    "start": 588.06,
    "end": 594.38,
    "text": "It is however quite easy to get buy-in from people for something that is easy to do."
  },
  {
    "start": 596.14,
    "end": 605.28,
    "text": "Maybe you find a lot of bugs later because requirements haven't been well formulated."
  },
  {
    "start": 606.04,
    "end": 608.24,
    "text": "A constant problem in many teams I work with, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 609.1,
    "end": 610.62,
    "text": "Requirements are not well written."
  },
  {
    "start": 611.92,
    "end": 616.58,
    "text": "And instead of saying, \"Okay, we need to change the entire system, blah, blah, blah, blah,"
  },
  {
    "start": 616.9,
    "end": 623.32,
    "text": "You just say, OK, can we every stand up before we move a ticket from ready to in progress?"
  },
  {
    "start": 624.16,
    "end": 628.74,
    "text": "Can we just as a team have a quick look and check that the requirements are in the ticket?"
  },
  {
    "start": 630.04,
    "end": 632.32,
    "text": "Takes about 15 seconds, ideally, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 633.06,
    "end": 637.54,
    "text": "If they're not there, you take three people and meet after the stand up and fix the problem."
  },
  {
    "start": 639.22,
    "end": 642.8,
    "text": "That is a change people can much easier, can get on board with much easier."
  },
  {
    "start": 643.74,
    "end": 646.4,
    "text": "And this may have a huge impact on the other end,"
  },
  {
    "start": 646.6,
    "end": 648.46,
    "text": "because now you no longer have all of these bugs."
  },
  {
    "start": 648.62,
    "end": 650.44,
    "text": "You need, you kind of save time"
  },
  {
    "start": 650.62,
    "end": 652.12,
    "text": "because there is no longer the ping pong"
  },
  {
    "start": 652.34,
    "end": 654.12,
    "text": "between test developer and product owner."
  },
  {
    "start": 654.41,
    "end": 656.1,
    "text": "Should it be this or should it be this other thing?"
  },
  {
    "start": 656.54,
    "end": 659.08,
    "text": "What should actually happen when I click this button?"
  },
  {
    "start": 659.44,
    "end": 659.54,
    "text": "Right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 660.76,
    "end": 663.22,
    "text": "- I find it very interesting to think in these small steps"
  },
  {
    "start": 663.34,
    "end": 666.4,
    "text": "because the example you brought with the requirements,"
  },
  {
    "start": 667.46,
    "end": 668.98,
    "text": "when this problem is there,"
  },
  {
    "start": 669.1,
    "end": 672.96,
    "text": "so there are typically two ways teams are dealing with it."
  },
  {
    "start": 673.3,
    "end": 677.14,
    "text": "The first one is to put a big review process on all the stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 677.28,
    "end": 681.2,
    "text": "So to doing just four reviews, thinking about, and meeting,"
  },
  {
    "start": 681.38,
    "end": 682.32,
    "text": "and workshops, and so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 682.64,
    "end": 685.48,
    "text": "And the other is to get more detailed in the requirements"
  },
  {
    "start": 685.96,
    "end": 689.74,
    "text": "to write more text, which is also not helpful, I think."
  },
  {
    "start": 690.2,
    "end": 693.14,
    "text": "So I like the idea to take a small step."
  },
  {
    "start": 693.18,
    "end": 695.28,
    "text": "And it's just a 50 second looking"
  },
  {
    "start": 695.4,
    "end": 696.9,
    "text": "at the user story or the requirement"
  },
  {
    "start": 697.65,
    "end": 700.06,
    "text": "to check, quick check, if it's OK or not."
  },
  {
    "start": 700.3,
    "end": 702.0,
    "text": "And maybe it's enough."
  },
  {
    "start": 702.2,
    "end": 702.38,
    "text": "Exactly."
  },
  {
    "start": 703.22,
    "end": 704.98,
    "text": "And then everybody who needs to work with this"
  },
  {
    "start": 705.04,
    "end": 707.12,
    "text": "can go away and fix it if there's a problem to fix."
  },
  {
    "start": 707.64,
    "end": 708.96,
    "text": "And if you do this consistently,"
  },
  {
    "start": 709.38,
    "end": 710.7,
    "text": "if you do it for a week or two,"
  },
  {
    "start": 710.94,
    "end": 713.5,
    "text": "then it already starts forming a habit, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 715.34,
    "end": 718.2,
    "text": "And you're already on your way to making something better."
  },
  {
    "start": 718.82,
    "end": 720.24,
    "text": "Because I'm all about changes"
  },
  {
    "start": 720.34,
    "end": 723.18,
    "text": "where you can see actual impact of your change"
  },
  {
    "start": 723.26,
    "end": 725.32,
    "text": "or can assess actual impact of your change,"
  },
  {
    "start": 725.68,
    "end": 727.2,
    "text": "ideally within a week or two."
  },
  {
    "start": 728.54,
    "end": 729.72,
    "text": "All right, and then you can go and say,"
  },
  {
    "start": 729.82,
    "end": 732.22,
    "text": "okay, does this make our problem better?"
  },
  {
    "start": 732.4,
    "end": 736.06,
    "text": "Are we now seeing less problems with the requirements in our tickets?"
  },
  {
    "start": 736.54,
    "end": 739.5,
    "text": "Or maybe it doesn't have your problem. Okay, fine. This is not the right approach."
  },
  {
    "start": 739.92,
    "end": 741.3,
    "text": "Let's try something else. Maybe,"
  },
  {
    "start": 741.94,
    "end": 745.82,
    "text": "maybe a template for requirements is the right thing to do. Personally, I hate"
  },
  {
    "start": 745.88,
    "end": 749.44,
    "text": "them, but, but, but, but, you know, whatever different teams, different things"
  },
  {
    "start": 749.52,
    "end": 753.36,
    "text": "work. So then you can try that. Then you put a template in there. And then again,"
  },
  {
    "start": 753.36,
    "end": 756.66,
    "text": "you come back in two weeks and look, does, has that's changed your ticket?"
  },
  {
    "start": 756.84,
    "end": 759.36,
    "text": "Maybe as a combination of the two who knows, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 759.76,
    "end": 765.88,
    "text": "But small changes that are easy to pivot to maybe change or tweak a little bit,"
  },
  {
    "start": 766.2,
    "end": 770.2,
    "text": "but also easy to abandon because you haven't invested three million in an 18"
  },
  {
    "start": 770.3,
    "end": 771.16,
    "text": "month plan."
  },
  {
    "start": 772.66,
    "end": 776.22,
    "text": "And it gives you the opportunity to learn constantly for the whole team."
  },
  {
    "start": 776.68,
    "end": 781.56,
    "text": "So with every one week, two weeks, you can, the whole team can understand, ah,"
  },
  {
    "start": 781.6,
    "end": 785.52,
    "text": "we have to take care of this and that in the requirements and so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 785.52,
    "end": 790.24,
    "text": "and not just using another template could be one opportunity,"
  },
  {
    "start": 790.4,
    "end": 792.34,
    "text": "but you can learn on it constantly."
  },
  {
    "start": 793.58,
    "end": 795.32,
    "text": "Exactly, it's worth improvement, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 796.46,
    "end": 797.42,
    "text": "Yeah, absolutely."
  },
  {
    "start": 799.339,
    "end": 802.52,
    "text": "I think it's a very good example,"
  },
  {
    "start": 802.8,
    "end": 806.86,
    "text": "because the requirements are often not so good as you said."
  },
  {
    "start": 809.0,
    "end": 812.82,
    "text": "What are the typical small changes we can influence,"
  },
  {
    "start": 812.82,
    "end": 817.26,
    "text": "let's think into the direction of developers, let's say."
  },
  {
    "start": 820.24,
    "end": 826.28,
    "text": "Well, so for another thing is another thing that I often see in many teams, especially"
  },
  {
    "start": 826.88,
    "end": 832.86,
    "text": "relatively recent converts to agile/scrum, right, depending on what they do, is that"
  },
  {
    "start": 832.89,
    "end": 839.6,
    "text": "the team start doing things that are basically mini waterfalls, right? You start a sprint,"
  },
  {
    "start": 839.94,
    "end": 843.68,
    "text": "You kind of agree what you're going to work on in the sprint, developers develop, and"
  },
  {
    "start": 843.7,
    "end": 848.04,
    "text": "then two days before the sprint ends, if you're lucky, all of the stories end in the test"
  },
  {
    "start": 848.12,
    "end": 852.94,
    "text": "column and the testers now are supposed to test everything before the sprint ends."
  },
  {
    "start": 854.26,
    "end": 858.34,
    "text": "And that again is a problem I see fairly frequently."
  },
  {
    "start": 861.02,
    "end": 866.619,
    "text": "And there are a number of things you can do, but I think the most important there is to"
  },
  {
    "start": 866.62,
    "end": 869.24,
    "text": "stop separating testing from development work."
  },
  {
    "start": 869.8,
    "end": 873.3,
    "text": "Make it clear that testing is part of the development work."
  },
  {
    "start": 873.38,
    "end": 877.24,
    "text": "This is not, you know, like in our good old waterfall"
  },
  {
    "start": 877.58,
    "end": 878.58,
    "text": "where we had the test phase,"
  },
  {
    "start": 878.58,
    "end": 879.8,
    "text": "we no longer have a test phase."
  },
  {
    "start": 880.42,
    "end": 883.02,
    "text": "So you really need to start planning for this"
  },
  {
    "start": 883.18,
    "end": 886.06,
    "text": "from the beginning and implementing it from the beginning."
  },
  {
    "start": 887.92,
    "end": 891.5,
    "text": "Maybe you want to start your work on a new ticket"
  },
  {
    "start": 891.56,
    "end": 893.5,
    "text": "as a developer or as a tester,"
  },
  {
    "start": 893.51,
    "end": 895.339,
    "text": "you want to suggest to the developer that"
  },
  {
    "start": 895.34,
    "end": 899.06,
    "text": "Why don't we sit down and pair on this for a short time, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 899.42,
    "end": 902.42,
    "text": "And then we can discuss how, how we can test the thing."
  },
  {
    "start": 902.81,
    "end": 908.1,
    "text": "So the developer can then do that work, keeping in mind that it needs to be"
  },
  {
    "start": 908.16,
    "end": 909.76,
    "text": "testable, how it's going to be tested."
  },
  {
    "start": 910.28,
    "end": 914.22,
    "text": "If there is anything needed to make it more testable, they can, you know, they"
  },
  {
    "start": 914.3,
    "end": 918.22,
    "text": "know that from the start and can implement that it will help them write their unit"
  },
  {
    "start": 918.28,
    "end": 920.22,
    "text": "tests because you can talk about those as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 921.5,
    "end": 921.6,
    "text": "Right."
  },
  {
    "start": 922.2,
    "end": 929.8,
    "text": "So that is another thing that is doesn't, it isn't a massive shift necessarily, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 929.8,
    "end": 931.32,
    "text": "But it is a fairly small change."
  },
  {
    "start": 932.02,
    "end": 933.98,
    "text": "Let's just start pairing earlier."
  },
  {
    "start": 935.5,
    "end": 936.18,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 936.26,
    "end": 945.04,
    "text": "I think there's so many small screws we can draw and adjust for the process to get"
  },
  {
    "start": 945.58,
    "end": 948.54,
    "text": "optimized and better for development teams too."
  },
  {
    "start": 949.56,
    "end": 954.72,
    "text": "When I'm now a tester and sitting here and hearing and seeing that interviewer say,"
  },
  {
    "start": 954.9,
    "end": 961.18,
    "text": "\"Okay, that sounds so great, but I'm a little introvert Fortnite gamer"
  },
  {
    "start": 961.66,
    "end": 964.94,
    "text": "and don't want to talk to anyone in my things.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 964.96,
    "end": 970.54,
    "text": "But I want, but I'm afraid of getting into contact or something like that."
  },
  {
    "start": 970.88,
    "end": 976.46,
    "text": "So what are the first steps for me as a tester, as a quality people,"
  },
  {
    "start": 976.76,
    "end": 981.26,
    "text": "to get into this role, to get more influential contact,"
  },
  {
    "start": 981.41,
    "end": 982.56,
    "text": "to more relationship?"
  },
  {
    "start": 983.24,
    "end": 985.02,
    "text": "How can I overcome this fear of..."
  },
  {
    "start": 986.38,
    "end": 989.02,
    "text": "Yeah, so I mean, I will start by saying,"
  },
  {
    "start": 989.16,
    "end": 993.52,
    "text": "I think this kind of very popular idea"
  },
  {
    "start": 994.3,
    "end": 996.84,
    "text": "that people in software development are all introverts"
  },
  {
    "start": 997.12,
    "end": 999.56,
    "text": "and that they don't like talking to other people,"
  },
  {
    "start": 999.64,
    "end": 1000.5,
    "text": "I think needs to die."
  },
  {
    "start": 1001.12,
    "end": 1004.86,
    "text": "Yeah, we had this episode with Isabel Evans a few days ago."
  },
  {
    "start": 1005.24,
    "end": 1013.46,
    "text": "So if we cannot work in a team, then we are not going to be successful in this role."
  },
  {
    "start": 1014.85,
    "end": 1024.06,
    "text": "It is fairly simple, right? Now, I personally would class myself definitely as an introvert."
  },
  {
    "start": 1024.18,
    "end": 1028.28,
    "text": "I don't like going out particularly, right? So I spend a lot of time at home, blah, blah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1029.0,
    "end": 1034.68,
    "text": "However, I think what you need to do is you need to learn what works for you."
  },
  {
    "start": 1034.819,
    "end": 1038.22,
    "text": "How can you communicate with your people and what works for your team?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1038.36,
    "end": 1041.18,
    "text": "Because it is not only going to depend on yourself."
  },
  {
    "start": 1042.26,
    "end": 1047.839,
    "text": "For me, one of the things that really helped me is I started my career many, many, many months ago,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1048.58,
    "end": 1050.44,
    "text": "working remotely for an American company."
  },
  {
    "start": 1050.96,
    "end": 1052.14,
    "text": "The company was in California."
  },
  {
    "start": 1052.23,
    "end": 1056.62,
    "text": "I was in Germany, which meant we had a bit of a time offset."
  },
  {
    "start": 1057.96,
    "end": 1061.06,
    "text": "At one point I had already moved to the UK there"
  },
  {
    "start": 1061.16,
    "end": 1065.0,
    "text": "But at one point I worked with half of my team in California and the other half in Indonesia"
  },
  {
    "start": 1066.02,
    "end": 1070.94,
    "text": "So I basically took over to had a stand up with the Indonesian team at an end of their day"
  },
  {
    "start": 1071.32,
    "end": 1076.479,
    "text": "I took took their stuff and then had to stand up at the end of my day with the California team and"
  },
  {
    "start": 1077.46,
    "end": 1082.68,
    "text": "That meant a lot of the communication was written and that made it a lot easier for me"
  },
  {
    "start": 1084.22,
    "end": 1086.939,
    "text": "Because that gave me time right especially"
  },
  {
    "start": 1086.94,
    "end": 1089.64,
    "text": "especially English isn't my mother tongue."
  },
  {
    "start": 1089.88,
    "end": 1091.88,
    "text": "And at the time I hadn't really worked"
  },
  {
    "start": 1091.96,
    "end": 1094.12,
    "text": "with an American team before, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1094.24,
    "end": 1095.86,
    "text": "So there was a lot to learn for me"
  },
  {
    "start": 1097.08,
    "end": 1100.54,
    "text": "and being able to have this asynchronous communication"
  },
  {
    "start": 1100.84,
    "end": 1101.7,
    "text": "really helped me."
  },
  {
    "start": 1103.2,
    "end": 1104.86,
    "text": "So that is maybe a good start."
  },
  {
    "start": 1105.5,
    "end": 1107.68,
    "text": "Then there are things where you can talk with your team"
  },
  {
    "start": 1107.72,
    "end": 1109.4,
    "text": "and your team lead, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1109.6,
    "end": 1114.16,
    "text": "Maybe you can have meetings that are not on camera"
  },
  {
    "start": 1114.34,
    "end": 1115.44,
    "text": "and you find that helpful."
  },
  {
    "start": 1116.78,
    "end": 1120.86,
    "text": "So there are small adjustments that are fairly easy to make."
  },
  {
    "start": 1121.5,
    "end": 1126.84,
    "text": "However, forget about the idea that you do not need to talk to other people"
  },
  {
    "start": 1127.06,
    "end": 1129.02,
    "text": "because you will need to talk to other people."
  },
  {
    "start": 1130.299,
    "end": 1134.18,
    "text": "I think that's very important for the future too,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1134.6,
    "end": 1137.5,
    "text": "to get more in contact and to talk to each other"
  },
  {
    "start": 1137.72,
    "end": 1141.16,
    "text": "because we are sitting in our home offices"
  },
  {
    "start": 1141.51,
    "end": 1144.38,
    "text": "and have no real contact to the people."
  },
  {
    "start": 1144.54,
    "end": 1150.02,
    "text": "So it's better to turn the camera on and to talk to the people and not just..."
  },
  {
    "start": 1150.08,
    "end": 1150.9,
    "text": "I agree, yes."
  },
  {
    "start": 1151.419,
    "end": 1156.48,
    "text": "But I know for some people, especially on the neurodiverse spectrum, right, for some"
  },
  {
    "start": 1156.62,
    "end": 1157.74,
    "text": "people, camera is really difficult."
  },
  {
    "start": 1159.4,
    "end": 1160.9,
    "text": "So okay, that's fine, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1160.98,
    "end": 1165.58,
    "text": "If it really helps you to not have your camera on, okay."
  },
  {
    "start": 1166.38,
    "end": 1167.92,
    "text": "I mean, you know, that's okay."
  },
  {
    "start": 1168.74,
    "end": 1173.659,
    "text": "Again, you need to talk to your team and you need to figure out what works and try to make"
  },
  {
    "start": 1173.66,
    "end": 1179.68,
    "text": "as many adjustments as you can without actually getting in the way of a good flow of communication."
  },
  {
    "start": 1181.8,
    "end": 1189.8,
    "text": "When you say to go to the small steps of change and to, from a testers perspective, to go"
  },
  {
    "start": 1189.86,
    "end": 1196.08,
    "text": "on and talk to each other, when I talk to testers, they say often there is nothing working"
  },
  {
    "start": 1196.16,
    "end": 1203.64,
    "text": "here correctly. The DevOps doesn't really work. We do not do really good HR stuff. They"
  },
  {
    "start": 1203.64,
    "end": 1209.98,
    "text": "requirements are crap and the management says we don't need testers and test automation"
  },
  {
    "start": 1210.28,
    "end": 1218.78,
    "text": "sucks and all this stuff. So how can I prioritize as a tester, which is really a good step to"
  },
  {
    "start": 1218.86,
    "end": 1224.02,
    "text": "go forward and which is maybe something I cannot have no control over it and cannot"
  },
  {
    "start": 1224.06,
    "end": 1225.02,
    "text": "influence it anyway?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1226.84,
    "end": 1231.38,
    "text": "So for prioritization, and you mentioned one of the things already, so I think we have"
  },
  {
    "start": 1231.36,
    "end": 1236.94,
    "text": "more influence than we think we have. However, it is again, it is important that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1237.12,
    "end": 1242.34,
    "text": "we pick battles we can win and that we pick, to start with that, we pick small"
  },
  {
    "start": 1242.42,
    "end": 1250.3,
    "text": "battles. So anything that is again takes longer than a week or two probably"
  },
  {
    "start": 1250.46,
    "end": 1255.42,
    "text": "will need approval from somebody. Anything that is going to cost money is"
  },
  {
    "start": 1255.5,
    "end": 1260.2,
    "text": "probably going to need approval from somebody. So pick something that you can"
  },
  {
    "start": 1260.18,
    "end": 1266.5,
    "text": "do with an ally in your team, whether that ally is another developer, whether that is"
  },
  {
    "start": 1266.5,
    "end": 1270.98,
    "text": "your product owner, somebody you get along with and you know they also feel the same"
  },
  {
    "start": 1271.06,
    "end": 1272.02,
    "text": "problem you're seeing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1272.72,
    "end": 1273.84,
    "text": "Pick a small problem."
  },
  {
    "start": 1274.6,
    "end": 1277.58,
    "text": "Nothing is working is not a helpful statement."
  },
  {
    "start": 1277.79,
    "end": 1280.86,
    "text": "It may be true, but it's not a helpful statement."
  },
  {
    "start": 1281.5,
    "end": 1284.62,
    "text": "So find something concrete that isn't working."
  },
  {
    "start": 1285.86,
    "end": 1290.84,
    "text": "I don't know stand up takes takes 30 minutes every morning because half of the team is late"
  },
  {
    "start": 1291.62,
    "end": 1295.8,
    "text": "That is that is you know, fairly fairly straightforward one. Talk to your team lead"
  },
  {
    "start": 1296.94,
    "end": 1299.68,
    "text": "And talk talk get people to attend one time"
  },
  {
    "start": 1300.98,
    "end": 1302.98,
    "text": "Right, or maybe I don't know"
  },
  {
    "start": 1303.98,
    "end": 1309.28,
    "text": "Maybe in meetings xyz never gets to say anything, but they have the best ideas"
  },
  {
    "start": 1310.34,
    "end": 1313.82,
    "text": "Right, then be the person who makes space for them"
  },
  {
    "start": 1314.5,
    "end": 1320.38,
    "text": "I'd be the person who speaks up and says, \"Hey, XYZ, what do you think about this?\""
  },
  {
    "start": 1321.9,
    "end": 1329.54,
    "text": "Yeah, I think when I think about it, what you say, it's good for in this role to just grab a list"
  },
  {
    "start": 1329.66,
    "end": 1335.54,
    "text": "and write down all this stuff you don't like and where you see all the improvers and then do some"
  },
  {
    "start": 1335.76,
    "end": 1343.14,
    "text": "evaluation about it. Is it evaluation? Is it feasible? Is it controllable? Can I do it?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1343.22,
    "end": 1346.24,
    "text": "Is it a small amount of time and does it cost money?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1346.26,
    "end": 1350.94,
    "text": "So do a little bit of assessment for this task and then you get the points where you can work on."
  },
  {
    "start": 1351.64,
    "end": 1357.6,
    "text": "Exactly. And this is exactly what I do in my, you know, what I call the QED question evidence developed method."
  },
  {
    "start": 1358.1,
    "end": 1366.42,
    "text": "So it is really, it is incredibly helpful if you find a concrete example of what you think isn't working."
  },
  {
    "start": 1366.48,
    "end": 1371.24,
    "text": "If you can define this is the moment where we can see it is not working."
  },
  {
    "start": 1372.26,
    "end": 1378.46,
    "text": "right because then then then you are able to ask a question around that and then you're also able"
  },
  {
    "start": 1378.67,
    "end": 1385.92,
    "text": "to collect some evidence about what is the actual impact of the thing and once you have that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1386.6,
    "end": 1393.28,
    "text": "then you can there are lots of plenty of methods out there right so i like liberating what they"
  },
  {
    "start": 1393.29,
    "end": 1400.72,
    "text": "call yes exactly right so i like i like a lot of that but i also am a quite a fan of the good old"
  },
  {
    "start": 1400.58,
    "end": 1406.8,
    "text": "Eisenhower matrix, right? You do an impact importance assessment and it can be really"
  },
  {
    "start": 1406.94,
    "end": 1412.32,
    "text": "quick and easy, you know, grab a whiteboard, grab some post-its, maybe a couple of papers and say,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1413.14,
    "end": 1419.18,
    "text": "what is going on here? I think what I heard now the second time is to do something more"
  },
  {
    "start": 1419.36,
    "end": 1424.94,
    "text": "quick to get a decision to what to work on. So I like the approach not to overthink all the whole"
  },
  {
    "start": 1424.82,
    "end": 1430.88,
    "text": "stuff. So when I think of the Eisenhower matrix, I can do so much stuff in it. I can define and"
  },
  {
    "start": 1430.94,
    "end": 1436.24,
    "text": "all the segments and the quadrants and do my prioritization and have to do big workshops."
  },
  {
    "start": 1436.36,
    "end": 1442.82,
    "text": "But when I hear you, you always mention that to get a quick result, which is maybe not perfect,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1443.0,
    "end": 1450.1,
    "text": "but to have a result to work on for the future. I am very much in favor of quick results and I'm"
  },
  {
    "start": 1450.1,
    "end": 1452.98,
    "text": "very much not in favor of trying to get things perfect."
  },
  {
    "start": 1453.54,
    "end": 1455.06,
    "text": "You're no enemy of Dan and all of that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1455.6,
    "end": 1457.62,
    "text": "I mean, I come from a DevOps background, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1457.72,
    "end": 1461.38,
    "text": "So I'm all about A, metrics,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1461.52,
    "end": 1463.76,
    "text": "but also doing quick experiments,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1464.5,
    "end": 1467.48,
    "text": "quick, easy experiments that are simple enough"
  },
  {
    "start": 1467.78,
    "end": 1469.86,
    "text": "that they can be easily abandoned"
  },
  {
    "start": 1470.14,
    "end": 1471.46,
    "text": "without having cost a whole lot."
  },
  {
    "start": 1472.12,
    "end": 1474.8,
    "text": "Because if you have too much,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1474.92,
    "end": 1477.02,
    "text": "if you have to invest too much,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1477.06,
    "end": 1479.18,
    "text": "whether that is time or money or thought,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1479.6,
    "end": 1481.34,
    "text": "you get very married to your things."
  },
  {
    "start": 1481.4,
    "end": 1484.64,
    "text": "And it makes it really hard to be somewhat objective"
  },
  {
    "start": 1484.94,
    "end": 1486.92,
    "text": "about the results from your query, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1487.28,
    "end": 1492.06,
    "text": "Because now you're invested, you want this to succeed."
  },
  {
    "start": 1493.28,
    "end": 1496.0,
    "text": "I think good experiments are the experiments"
  },
  {
    "start": 1496.44,
    "end": 1497.82,
    "text": "where you know what you want to change."
  },
  {
    "start": 1498.04,
    "end": 1500.08,
    "text": "So you need to know what success looks like."
  },
  {
    "start": 1500.78,
    "end": 1502.52,
    "text": "But they're also easy and cheap enough"
  },
  {
    "start": 1503.12,
    "end": 1505.86,
    "text": "that if you can't reach success with that,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1505.92,
    "end": 1507.62,
    "text": "you can like, eh, fine, let's try something else."
  },
  {
    "start": 1508.96,
    "end": 1510.48,
    "text": "Yeah, that's a great approach."
  },
  {
    "start": 1510.56,
    "end": 1514.14,
    "text": "And I think one thing we have to mention here,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1514.14,
    "end": 1518.56,
    "text": "we talked about upfront, is that you have also a course"
  },
  {
    "start": 1518.68,
    "end": 1521.12,
    "text": "available in the short future, which"
  },
  {
    "start": 1521.9,
    "end": 1525.48,
    "text": "helps test us to get into more this influential role"
  },
  {
    "start": 1525.62,
    "end": 1526.42,
    "text": "of in the project."
  },
  {
    "start": 1527.22,
    "end": 1527.84,
    "text": "Yes, absolutely."
  },
  {
    "start": 1528.02,
    "end": 1529.24,
    "text": "So I teach this."
  },
  {
    "start": 1529.38,
    "end": 1532.08,
    "text": "It's a six-week online course."
  },
  {
    "start": 1533.12,
    "end": 1537.6,
    "text": "So it is six 19-minute sessions online, live with me,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1538.56,
    "end": 1540.7,
    "text": "where I teach people the QED,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1541.34,
    "end": 1542.82,
    "text": "Question Evidence Developed method."
  },
  {
    "start": 1544.04,
    "end": 1545.62,
    "text": "And what we do is,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1545.72,
    "end": 1550.679,
    "text": "so what I give people there is structured tools"
  },
  {
    "start": 1552.1,
    "end": 1555.22,
    "text": "to ask good questions, to look for the evidence,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1555.7,
    "end": 1560.14,
    "text": "to kind of frame their stakeholder conversations"
  },
  {
    "start": 1560.66,
    "end": 1564.06,
    "text": "and then how to go about collecting the evidence"
  },
  {
    "start": 1564.48,
    "end": 1566.02,
    "text": "for their experiments, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1566.88,
    "end": 1571.88,
    "text": "And the way this works is we develop some problems"
  },
  {
    "start": 1573.04,
    "end": 1575.08,
    "text": "that they have in their everyday work."
  },
  {
    "start": 1575.71,
    "end": 1578.38,
    "text": "So when this is not a highly theoretical thing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1578.76,
    "end": 1581.04,
    "text": "people can bring their actual work problems"
  },
  {
    "start": 1581.43,
    "end": 1584.94,
    "text": "and I teach them how to apply all of these frameworks"
  },
  {
    "start": 1585.2,
    "end": 1587.52,
    "text": "and methods on their actual work problems,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1587.73,
    "end": 1591.02,
    "text": "but they can go away with something they can work on"
  },
  {
    "start": 1591.18,
    "end": 1592.54,
    "text": "in their everyday context."
  },
  {
    "start": 1592.54,
    "end": 1594.52,
    "text": "So that is what I do basically."
  },
  {
    "start": 1595.36,
    "end": 1596.8,
    "text": "That sounds great and very interesting."
  },
  {
    "start": 1597.0,
    "end": 1600.32,
    "text": "So we will put the information for this course in the show notes too."
  },
  {
    "start": 1600.84,
    "end": 1604.3,
    "text": "So maybe someone is interested and then can book it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1604.36,
    "end": 1607.48,
    "text": "I can recommend it here what I knew from you."
  },
  {
    "start": 1607.97,
    "end": 1609.84,
    "text": "You are such a great expert in this stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 1609.98,
    "end": 1613.26,
    "text": "So I think there's a lot to learn in this course."
  },
  {
    "start": 1614.42,
    "end": 1615.4,
    "text": "I've done this a few times."
  },
  {
    "start": 1617.3,
    "end": 1623.079,
    "text": "Kat, thank you very much for this insights in this interview about how to get an"
  },
  {
    "start": 1623.08,
    "end": 1631.2,
    "text": "influencer as a tester in the project. So I like the spirit and I like the idea to get use of this"
  },
  {
    "start": 1631.5,
    "end": 1637.82,
    "text": "role in the project more to make things better. Thank you very much that you were here and I hope"
  },
  {
    "start": 1638.09,
    "end": 1644.42,
    "text": "we see us in the future in real life. I'm sure we will, unless of course everything explodes and"
  },
  {
    "start": 1644.42,
    "end": 1652.76,
    "text": "you can't fly anywhere anymore. Yeah, we don't hope so. So we will see, I think. Thank you very much."
  },
  {
    "start": 1653.1,
    "end": 1653.72,
    "text": "- Okay. - Bye-bye."
  },
  {
    "start": 1653.96,
    "end": 1655.48,
    "text": "Well, thanks, Richie. It was a pleasure."
  },
  {
    "start": 1655.94,
    "end": 1656.4,
    "text": "Thank you. Bye-bye."
  }
]