[
  {
    "start": 1.079,
    "end": 9.58,
    "text": "Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed, the podcast for testers, developers and software makers who live quality as an attitude."
  },
  {
    "start": 10.48,
    "end": 19.36,
    "text": "Get fresh ideas and sharp insights to grow your mindset, to learn new methods and to drive real change in how we build software."
  },
  {
    "start": 20.0,
    "end": 23.0,
    "text": "Better software and better teams for a better world."
  },
  {
    "start": 27.18,
    "end": 28.46,
    "text": "[intro music]"
  },
  {
    "start": 32.16,
    "end": 36.26,
    "text": "Hi, I'm Richie, your podcast host and a passionate software alchemist."
  },
  {
    "start": 36.62,
    "end": 39.2,
    "text": "I believe that better software builds a better world."
  },
  {
    "start": 39.74,
    "end": 44.8,
    "text": "And sometimes that journey starts with something as simple as asking the right questions."
  },
  {
    "start": 45.4,
    "end": 51.5,
    "text": "In this episode, I talk to Rik Marselis, a man I've met at conferences all around the world."
  },
  {
    "start": 52.0,
    "end": 56.02,
    "text": "And Rik doesn't just know test design techniques, he lives them."
  },
  {
    "start": 57.12,
    "end": 62.46,
    "text": "If testing were a martial art, Rik would be the sensei with the black belt in designing"
  },
  {
    "start": 62.58,
    "end": 63.7,
    "text": "test cases, I think."
  },
  {
    "start": 64.64,
    "end": 66.2,
    "text": "So what is this episode about?"
  },
  {
    "start": 67.34,
    "end": 72.4,
    "text": "We will get into the question why so many testers learn test design techniques and then"
  },
  {
    "start": 72.48,
    "end": 74.18,
    "text": "forget to actually use them."
  },
  {
    "start": 76.36,
    "end": 81.32,
    "text": "But how can we choose the right technique for a problem and not just the favorite one?"
  },
  {
    "start": 82.45,
    "end": 89.14,
    "text": "We will look at the four groups every tester should know concerning data, condition, process"
  },
  {
    "start": 89.22,
    "end": 89.9,
    "text": "and appearance."
  },
  {
    "start": 91.68,
    "end": 96.1,
    "text": "And how templates and real-life examples can finally make learning stick."
  },
  {
    "start": 97.44,
    "end": 101.96,
    "text": "And why test coverage without context is like measuring a pizza bite's metal."
  },
  {
    "start": 102.34,
    "end": 103.62,
    "text": "Which is very nice, I think."
  },
  {
    "start": 105.2,
    "end": 110.1,
    "text": "I hope you gain some insights and some motivation to use test design techniques more often."
  },
  {
    "start": 110.78,
    "end": 114.74,
    "text": "Because quality doesn't happen by accident, it's a design decision."
  },
  {
    "start": 115.28,
    "end": 116.84,
    "text": "So have fun with this episode."
  },
  {
    "start": 117.86,
    "end": 118.24,
    "text": "Hi, Rik."
  },
  {
    "start": 118.42,
    "end": 119.38,
    "text": "Nice to have you on the podcast."
  },
  {
    "start": 119.76,
    "end": 120.86,
    "text": "Yeah, Hi, Richie."
  },
  {
    "start": 120.94,
    "end": 121.34,
    "text": "Good"
  },
  {
    "start": 121.34,
    "end": 121.8,
    "text": "to be here."
  },
  {
    "start": 122.08,
    "end": 122.86,
    "text": "Thanks for the invitation."
  },
  {
    "start": 123.22,
    "end": 124.5,
    "text": "Yes, thank you very much."
  },
  {
    "start": 124.56,
    "end": 128.22,
    "text": "We are here on the testing retreat, the 28th testing retreat."
  },
  {
    "start": 128.34,
    "end": 130.259,
    "text": "Yeah, in a very nice venue in Belgium."
  },
  {
    "start": 130.6,
    "end": 131.12,
    "text": "Yes, yes."
  },
  {
    "start": 131.18,
    "end": 132.3,
    "text": "It's very, very nice here."
  },
  {
    "start": 132.48,
    "end": 136.34,
    "text": "So it's now my whole studio here."
  },
  {
    "start": 137.08,
    "end": 144.2,
    "text": "And we talked in upfront what topic is your passion, what do you like most in all this"
  },
  {
    "start": 144.24,
    "end": 145.62,
    "text": "testing and quality stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 145.8,
    "end": 148.42,
    "text": "And you said test design techniques."
  },
  {
    "start": 149.02,
    "end": 152.4,
    "text": "And I said, oh, yeah, we have to do an episode about this."
  },
  {
    "start": 154.06,
    "end": 155.92,
    "text": "So what is your opinion?"
  },
  {
    "start": 156.06,
    "end": 160.88,
    "text": "We are learning test design techniques in foundation level and so since 20 years."
  },
  {
    "start": 161.68,
    "end": 163.52,
    "text": "Does it work in reality?"
  },
  {
    "start": 164.66,
    "end": 166.06,
    "text": "Well, I have"
  },
  {
    "start": 166.06,
    "end": 169.16,
    "text": "been teaching test design techniques for almost 25 years now."
  },
  {
    "start": 169.54,
    "end": 176.98,
    "text": "And my, you might say, my frustration is that many testers still don't apply them."
  },
  {
    "start": 177.82,
    "end": 187.88,
    "text": "So the problem I see is on the one hand that nobody requires them to use test design techniques."
  },
  {
    "start": 188.48,
    "end": 194.68,
    "text": "And often when quality of IT systems is quite bad, you don't really need them because if"
  },
  {
    "start": 194.68,
    "end": 196.78,
    "text": "you push a button, you already find a problem."
  },
  {
    "start": 198.72,
    "end": 205.98,
    "text": "But if you have good quality or you want to really give a convincing answer about the"
  },
  {
    "start": 206.0,
    "end": 211.92,
    "text": "quality, test design techniques are really useful to show what kind of coverage you have."
  },
  {
    "start": 212.76,
    "end": 219.98,
    "text": "But one thing we always say in TMAP is that you should always combine experience-based"
  },
  {
    "start": 220.18,
    "end": 225.64,
    "text": "techniques, for example, exploratory testing, in combination with test design techniques."
  },
  {
    "start": 226.14,
    "end": 230.0,
    "text": "So with the test design technique, you can prove that you have covered everything that"
  },
  {
    "start": 230.02,
    "end": 232.54,
    "text": "is important related to your risk level."
  },
  {
    "start": 232.92,
    "end": 236.44,
    "text": "So higher risk, take a more thorough test design technique."
  },
  {
    "start": 238.04,
    "end": 244.12,
    "text": "But also you want to have confidence that things work as expected and often confidence"
  },
  {
    "start": 244.38,
    "end": 248.1,
    "text": "comes by a combination of coverage and experience."
  },
  {
    "start": 249.58,
    "end": 250.72,
    "text": "So the"
  },
  {
    "start": 250.72,
    "end": 255.72,
    "text": "test design techniques, do you think there's also a lack in knowledge by the"
  },
  {
    "start": 255.72,
    "end": 256.78,
    "text": "testers or is it?"
  },
  {
    "start": 257.239,
    "end": 257.38,
    "text": "Yeah,"
  },
  {
    "start": 257.739,
    "end": 265.039,
    "text": "well you see ISTQB if you take ISTQB foundation and the advanced level test analyst"
  },
  {
    "start": 265.04,
    "end": 267.06,
    "text": "and the advanced level technical test analyst,"
  },
  {
    "start": 268.02,
    "end": 270.22,
    "text": "all in all, I guess you learn somewhere"
  },
  {
    "start": 270.48,
    "end": 272.58,
    "text": "between 15 and 20 test design techniques."
  },
  {
    "start": 274.56,
    "end": 277.08,
    "text": "And basically that's part of the problem"
  },
  {
    "start": 277.7,
    "end": 279.16,
    "text": "because you learn way too many."
  },
  {
    "start": 280.44,
    "end": 283.92,
    "text": "And about 10 years ago, my colleague Bert and I"
  },
  {
    "start": 284.06,
    "end": 286.66,
    "text": "did a research about test design techniques"
  },
  {
    "start": 286.72,
    "end": 289.38,
    "text": "and we found that there are about 25"
  },
  {
    "start": 289.82,
    "end": 291.38,
    "text": "to 30 test design techniques."
  },
  {
    "start": 292.02,
    "end": 293.62,
    "text": "And why don't we know the exact number?"
  },
  {
    "start": 293.64,
    "end": 296.26,
    "text": "because for some techniques you can debate"
  },
  {
    "start": 296.6,
    "end": 298.38,
    "text": "whether they are separate techniques"
  },
  {
    "start": 298.38,
    "end": 300.44,
    "text": "or just a variant of the same technique."
  },
  {
    "start": 300.64,
    "end": 303.56,
    "text": "So we'd say 25 to 30, anyway,"
  },
  {
    "start": 304.24,
    "end": 306.42,
    "text": "many more than anyone will ever apply."
  },
  {
    "start": 307.419,
    "end": 310.38,
    "text": "And also, so I have with me"
  },
  {
    "start": 310.56,
    "end": 313.38,
    "text": "the latest TMAP book quality for DevOps teams"
  },
  {
    "start": 314.04,
    "end": 316.54,
    "text": "and TMAP exists for 29 years now."
  },
  {
    "start": 316.78,
    "end": 319.08,
    "text": "And in earlier TMAP certifications,"
  },
  {
    "start": 319.64,
    "end": 326.22,
    "text": "you had to show proficiency in 19 test design techniques and approaches,"
  },
  {
    "start": 327.02,
    "end": 331.3,
    "text": "which basically is not possible in a three-day training course."
  },
  {
    "start": 331.82,
    "end": 336.26,
    "text": "So, the only thing you learn is how to check the right A, B, C, or D on the exam,"
  },
  {
    "start": 336.34,
    "end": 337.5,
    "text": "and you don't really learn."
  },
  {
    "start": 337.76,
    "end": 343.12,
    "text": "So, when we introduced a new TMAP certification scheme,"
  },
  {
    "start": 344.04,
    "end": 351.0,
    "text": "We decided that on the course you start with,"
  },
  {
    "start": 351.02,
    "end": 352.46,
    "text": "Quality for Cross-Functional Teams,"
  },
  {
    "start": 352.69,
    "end": 355.4,
    "text": "you get five test design techniques and one approach,"
  },
  {
    "start": 356.22,
    "end": 358.68,
    "text": "and that's your basic skill set."
  },
  {
    "start": 359.08,
    "end": 362.54,
    "text": "But we spent some more time and also some more exercises on it"
  },
  {
    "start": 362.6,
    "end": 365.78,
    "text": "so that you actually are able to use it at,"
  },
  {
    "start": 366.12,
    "end": 367.38,
    "text": "let's say, a beginner's level,"
  },
  {
    "start": 367.43,
    "end": 369.56,
    "text": "and then, of course, you need to get better."
  },
  {
    "start": 370.13,
    "end": 374.02,
    "text": "And one of the reasons why I think that many people"
  },
  {
    "start": 374.02,
    "end": 379.84,
    "text": "apply test design techniques is simply they have not come across the hurdle of learning"
  },
  {
    "start": 379.94,
    "end": 381.3,
    "text": "the test design technique properly."
  },
  {
    "start": 382.08,
    "end": 387.48,
    "text": "Because on the exam, you just know the basics and you can answer the exam question, but"
  },
  {
    "start": 387.58,
    "end": 390.94,
    "text": "in real life, it's always more complex than on an exam."
  },
  {
    "start": 394.02,
    "end": 399.5,
    "text": "One of the things that Bert and I discovered in our research is that it's quite easy"
  },
  {
    "start": 399.5,
    "end": 401.48,
    "text": "to group test design techniques."
  },
  {
    "start": 402.42,
    "end": 406.4,
    "text": "What we did and we showed it, I'll show it on the camera."
  },
  {
    "start": 406.58,
    "end": 408.6,
    "text": "Well, people that only listen to the podcast"
  },
  {
    "start": 408.72,
    "end": 410.82,
    "text": "won't be able to see that, but I'll describe it."
  },
  {
    "start": 411.42,
    "end": 414.2,
    "text": "What we found is that all test design techniques"
  },
  {
    "start": 414.94,
    "end": 416.78,
    "text": "can be put in four groups."
  },
  {
    "start": 417.5,
    "end": 420.6,
    "text": "So, and the four groups are process oriented"
  },
  {
    "start": 420.74,
    "end": 421.8,
    "text": "test design techniques."
  },
  {
    "start": 422.3,
    "end": 425.68,
    "text": "For example, path testing, where you have several levels"
  },
  {
    "start": 425.74,
    "end": 428.72,
    "text": "of path coverage or state transition testing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 428.88,
    "end": 431.38,
    "text": "where you have state coverage or transition coverage"
  },
  {
    "start": 431.38,
    "end": 433.3,
    "text": "one switch or zero switch, whatever."
  },
  {
    "start": 433.9,
    "end": 436.68,
    "text": "The second group is condition-oriented testing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 437.42,
    "end": 439.14,
    "text": "which is, for example, decision tables,"
  },
  {
    "start": 439.38,
    "end": 440.78,
    "text": "where you have various conditions"
  },
  {
    "start": 440.94,
    "end": 443.36,
    "text": "and they determine the test cases."
  },
  {
    "start": 444.12,
    "end": 446.06,
    "text": "Third group is data-oriented,"
  },
  {
    "start": 446.38,
    "end": 449.08,
    "text": "for example, equivalence partitioning,"
  },
  {
    "start": 449.32,
    "end": 451.98,
    "text": "where you have a data item and you have several partitions."
  },
  {
    "start": 452.72,
    "end": 455.04,
    "text": "And the last group is what we call appearance,"
  },
  {
    "start": 455.22,
    "end": 458.5,
    "text": "and that is how the system shows itself to the outside world."
  },
  {
    "start": 458.94,
    "end": 462.08,
    "text": "And on one hand, that is things like syntactic testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 462.42,
    "end": 464.68,
    "text": "So are the buttons on the right spot?"
  },
  {
    "start": 464.84,
    "end": 467.2,
    "text": "Do we have the right font type, the right colors,"
  },
  {
    "start": 467.74,
    "end": 468.9,
    "text": "the whole style guide?"
  },
  {
    "start": 469.62,
    "end": 470.58,
    "text": "And on the other hand,"
  },
  {
    "start": 470.98,
    "end": 473.66,
    "text": "appearance is also about the non-functionals"
  },
  {
    "start": 473.8,
    "end": 474.76,
    "text": "like performance,"
  },
  {
    "start": 475.04,
    "end": 475.98,
    "text": "usability, whatever."
  },
  {
    "start": 477.8,
    "end": 480.86,
    "text": "And by knowing these four groups,"
  },
  {
    "start": 481.18,
    "end": 483.24,
    "text": "a good thing that a tester can do"
  },
  {
    "start": 483.48,
    "end": 485.34,
    "text": "is make sure that you know"
  },
  {
    "start": 485.5,
    "end": 487.58,
    "text": "at least one or two techniques per"
  },
  {
    "start": 487.58,
    "end": 488.92,
    "text": "group"
  },
  {
    "start": 488.92,
    "end": 492.7,
    "text": "Because if you know all techniques from only one group,"
  },
  {
    "start": 493.04,
    "end": 496.8,
    "text": "for example, I did coaching in a team"
  },
  {
    "start": 496.86,
    "end": 498.88,
    "text": "and they decided to use the so-called"
  },
  {
    "start": 499.34,
    "end": 500.98,
    "text": "elementary comparison test."
  },
  {
    "start": 501.1,
    "end": 505.02,
    "text": "That is one of the most sophisticated techniques."
  },
  {
    "start": 505.3,
    "end": 508.04,
    "text": "Also, some people find it a relatively hard technique,"
  },
  {
    "start": 508.18,
    "end": 510.62,
    "text": "but if you use the proper templates,"
  },
  {
    "start": 510.68,
    "end": 511.06,
    "text": "it's not"
  },
  {
    "start": 511.06,
    "end": 511.84,
    "text": "all that difficult."
  },
  {
    "start": 513.12,
    "end": 514.979,
    "text": "But it's a condition-oriented technique"
  },
  {
    "start": 515.039,
    "end": 517.18,
    "text": "and they decided to always use it"
  },
  {
    "start": 517.159,
    "end": 520.159,
    "text": "because it's a technique with high efficiency"
  },
  {
    "start": 520.44,
    "end": 523.06,
    "text": "and high effectiveness, so that sounds great."
  },
  {
    "start": 523.62,
    "end": 525.8,
    "text": "And then they said, yeah, but it doesn't work for us."
  },
  {
    "start": 526.22,
    "end": 529.82,
    "text": "And then we determined they had a data-oriented problem."
  },
  {
    "start": 530.54,
    "end": 530.7,
    "text": "And"
  },
  {
    "start": 530.7,
    "end": 532.34,
    "text": "then a condition-oriented technique"
  },
  {
    "start": 532.56,
    "end": 533.56,
    "text": "is not the right choice."
  },
  {
    "start": 534.34,
    "end": 535.9,
    "text": "So do these"
  },
  {
    "start": 535.9,
    "end": 537.7,
    "text": "five techniques you teach"
  },
  {
    "start": 537.76,
    "end": 542.96,
    "text": "and you selected represent this four condition?"
  },
  {
    "start": 543.02,
    "end": 543.14,
    "text": "Yeah,"
  },
  {
    "start": 543.46,
    "end": 543.74,
    "text": "so"
  },
  {
    "start": 543.74,
    "end": 544.18,
    "text": "we"
  },
  {
    "start": 544.18,
    "end": 545.3,
    "text": "have five techniques."
  },
  {
    "start": 545.44,
    "end": 550.66,
    "text": "So we have equivalence partitioning and boundary value analysis from the data group."
  },
  {
    "start": 551.04,
    "end": 551.24,
    "text": "We"
  },
  {
    "start": 551.24,
    "end": 556.5,
    "text": "have path testing from the process group, decision table from the condition group, and"
  },
  {
    "start": 557.02,
    "end": 559.08,
    "text": "syntactical testing from the appearance group."
  },
  {
    "start": 559.86,
    "end": 564.06,
    "text": "And additionally, we have exploratory testing as an experience-based approach."
  },
  {
    "start": 564.84,
    "end": 570.919,
    "text": "And then in the T-MAP scheme, we have a second training course called high-performance quality"
  },
  {
    "start": 570.92,
    "end": 577.58,
    "text": "engineering, which again has a technique per group, so that people that have done both"
  },
  {
    "start": 577.88,
    "end": 582.36,
    "text": "training courses have about 10 techniques and two approaches."
  },
  {
    "start": 583.18,
    "end": 588.46,
    "text": "And basically that is the toolbox that 90% of the testers will need"
  },
  {
    "start": 588.46,
    "end": 590.06,
    "text": "during their career."
  },
  {
    "start": 591.44,
    "end": 600.159,
    "text": "When I come to clients and to test teams, what do you think, how is the transfer of"
  },
  {
    "start": 600.16,
    "end": 601.86,
    "text": "these techniques in the daily work,"
  },
  {
    "start": 602.4,
    "end": 604.54,
    "text": "do they have to sit with pen and paper"
  },
  {
    "start": 604.9,
    "end": 606.9,
    "text": "and do the equalization positioning"
  },
  {
    "start": 607.18,
    "end": 609.46,
    "text": "and the boundary value or using some tools"
  },
  {
    "start": 609.56,
    "end": 612.86,
    "text": "or some testers always say, \"I understand the idea."
  },
  {
    "start": 612.94,
    "end": 614.22,
    "text": "\"I do it more intuitive"
  },
  {
    "start": 615.3,
    "end": 618.5,
    "text": "\"and decide the boundary values more.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 619.02,
    "end": 621.66,
    "text": "- Well, of course, it depends a bit per technique."
  },
  {
    "start": 621.88,
    "end": 623.74,
    "text": "For example, the boundary value analysis"
  },
  {
    "start": 623.76,
    "end": 625.84,
    "text": "is the most intuitive technique."
  },
  {
    "start": 625.98,
    "end": 627.6,
    "text": "Even people that have never heard"
  },
  {
    "start": 627.6,
    "end": 628.6,
    "text": "of the word test design"
  },
  {
    "start": 628.6,
    "end": 629.639,
    "text": "technique"
  },
  {
    "start": 629.64,
    "end": 631.74,
    "text": "often already do a boundary value analysis."
  },
  {
    "start": 633.58,
    "end": 636.04,
    "text": "But for other techniques, we created templates."
  },
  {
    "start": 636.24,
    "end": 643.58,
    "text": "Because one of my colleague teachers of TMAP, who I know for about 20 years, well, over"
  },
  {
    "start": 643.62,
    "end": 652.66,
    "text": "15 at least, she admitted that teaching people decision table testing was always quite hard."
  },
  {
    "start": 653.56,
    "end": 661.72,
    "text": "And with the new certification scheme, we also created a template that we also put on"
  },
  {
    "start": 661.74,
    "end": 664.52,
    "text": "the T-MAP website, so anybody in the world can download it."
  },
  {
    "start": 666.36,
    "end": 673.08,
    "text": "And since we have the template, teaching decision tables has become much easier because you"
  },
  {
    "start": 673.14,
    "end": 675.38,
    "text": "don't have to teach how to make the table"
  },
  {
    "start": 675.38,
    "end": 676.18,
    "text": "because"
  },
  {
    "start": 676.18,
    "end": 677.26,
    "text": "you already have a template."
  },
  {
    "start": 677.35,
    "end": 679.86,
    "text": "You simply say, \"This is what the table looks like."
  },
  {
    "start": 679.91,
    "end": 681.8,
    "text": "You don't have to learn how to make it."
  },
  {
    "start": 682.44,
    "end": 684.42,
    "text": "And then this is what you fill in here and there."
  },
  {
    "start": 684.68,
    "end": 690.16,
    "text": "So you put in conditions, you put in actions, and then you determine based on the true/false"
  },
  {
    "start": 690.22,
    "end": 692.08,
    "text": "combinations, what is the expected outcome."
  },
  {
    "start": 693.0,
    "end": 696.64,
    "text": "And of course, the expected outcome is the thing you basically want to have."
  },
  {
    "start": 696.84,
    "end": 697.88,
    "text": "That's the core of test"
  },
  {
    "start": 697.88,
    "end": 698.22,
    "text": "cases."
  },
  {
    "start": 699.0,
    "end": 706.66,
    "text": "And how do you teach the tester to learn how to choose which design technique is appropriate"
  },
  {
    "start": 706.86,
    "end": 707.74,
    "text": "for the problem I have?"
  },
  {
    "start": 708.06,
    "end": 708.18,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 709.24,
    "end": 716.36,
    "text": "So we make them aware of the fact that basically there are four things relevant"
  },
  {
    "start": 716.82,
    "end": 721.58,
    "text": "also described in the book for selecting a test design technique."
  },
  {
    "start": 722.04,
    "end": 726.16,
    "text": "One of them is the kind of testing problem you have."
  },
  {
    "start": 726.4,
    "end": 728.32,
    "text": "So which group do we select from?"
  },
  {
    "start": 729.06,
    "end": 733.42,
    "text": "Another one is what kind of quality characteristic is it that we are addressing?"
  },
  {
    "start": 733.74,
    "end": 735.5,
    "text": "For example, if it's performance,"
  },
  {
    "start": 735.8,
    "end": 738.7,
    "text": "Well, then you quickly come in the group of appearance."
  },
  {
    "start": 741.02,
    "end": 744.66,
    "text": "The third is risk."
  },
  {
    "start": 745.34,
    "end": 747.22,
    "text": "So high risk, we need more coverage."
  },
  {
    "start": 747.88,
    "end": 750.86,
    "text": "And we basically say,"
  },
  {
    "start": 751.02,
    "end": 753.9,
    "text": "if you have three risk levels, that's usually enough."
  },
  {
    "start": 754.68,
    "end": 754.98,
    "text": "Why?"
  },
  {
    "start": 755.2,
    "end": 757.22,
    "text": "Because some people like to have a percentage"
  },
  {
    "start": 757.48,
    "end": 758.88,
    "text": "and then I always challenge them,"
  },
  {
    "start": 759.2,
    "end": 760.38,
    "text": "is 72%?"
  },
  {
    "start": 760.66,
    "end": 762.24,
    "text": "Is it more than 69?"
  },
  {
    "start": 762.42,
    "end": 766.0,
    "text": "So, we have just low, medium, high,"
  },
  {
    "start": 766.34,
    "end": 768.1,
    "text": "because with the test design techniques,"
  },
  {
    "start": 768.44,
    "end": 772.2,
    "text": "generally, you also can't have more than three choices of coverage."
  },
  {
    "start": 773.06,
    "end": 775.72,
    "text": "So, but then based on the risk level,"
  },
  {
    "start": 775.72,
    "end": 778.12,
    "text": "you decide more coverage or less coverage."
  },
  {
    "start": 778.7,
    "end": 781.76,
    "text": "And the last one is also an important one,"
  },
  {
    "start": 781.76,
    "end": 784.16,
    "text": "and that's the skills of the involved people."
  },
  {
    "start": 784.84,
    "end": 788.24,
    "text": "Because sometimes they don't know about the test design technique,"
  },
  {
    "start": 788.34,
    "end": 790.82,
    "text": "and then you can, you have two choices."
  },
  {
    "start": 790.82,
    "end": 793.5,
    "text": "you can say, let's select another technique that they do know,"
  },
  {
    "start": 793.9,
    "end": 795.46,
    "text": "or let's educate them."
  },
  {
    "start": 796.26,
    "end": 799.42,
    "text": "And currently I'm in a project where the business analysts"
  },
  {
    "start": 799.78,
    "end": 803.5,
    "text": "are supposed to test the functional acceptance testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 803.62,
    "end": 805.12,
    "text": "So they test the business processes"
  },
  {
    "start": 806.06,
    "end": 809.88,
    "text": "and they have quite good process flows."
  },
  {
    "start": 810.4,
    "end": 812.22,
    "text": "So I was actually quite enthusiastic"
  },
  {
    "start": 812.56,
    "end": 814.32,
    "text": "because not always you find good"
  },
  {
    "start": 814.32,
    "end": 815.34,
    "text": "process flows,"
  },
  {
    "start": 815.69,
    "end": 815.9,
    "text": "but"
  },
  {
    "start": 815.9,
    "end": 817.02,
    "text": "they have good process flows."
  },
  {
    "start": 817.16,
    "end": 819.54,
    "text": "So I told them there's a test design technique,"
  },
  {
    "start": 819.94,
    "end": 822.58,
    "text": "path testing, also known as process cycle test,"
  },
  {
    "start": 823.08,
    "end": 825.04,
    "text": "that is very well fitted for this."
  },
  {
    "start": 826.16,
    "end": 827.86,
    "text": "Will you allow me to teach you?"
  },
  {
    "start": 828.18,
    "end": 829.46,
    "text": "And they were enthusiastic,"
  },
  {
    "start": 829.98,
    "end": 833.1,
    "text": "because sometimes people don't want to be taught techniques"
  },
  {
    "start": 833.22,
    "end": 834.6,
    "text": "and they think it's too much trouble,"
  },
  {
    "start": 834.74,
    "end": 836.64,
    "text": "but those were enthusiastic."
  },
  {
    "start": 837.68,
    "end": 840.66,
    "text": "So we sat down for like an hour and a half."
  },
  {
    "start": 840.96,
    "end": 842.88,
    "text": "I explained it, we did an exercise,"
  },
  {
    "start": 843.0,
    "end": 844.38,
    "text": "and they said, \"Oh, yeah, this might"
  },
  {
    "start": 844.38,
    "end": 845.26,
    "text": "work.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 845.28,
    "end": 849.099,
    "text": "And last week we did a two-hour session"
  },
  {
    "start": 849.1,
    "end": 853.3,
    "text": "with a live example, so their first process flow,"
  },
  {
    "start": 853.88,
    "end": 855.2,
    "text": "and we created the test cases."
  },
  {
    "start": 855.34,
    "end": 857.38,
    "text": "And of course, we have a template for that."
  },
  {
    "start": 857.96,
    "end": 860.56,
    "text": "So it's just a step-by-step approach."
  },
  {
    "start": 861.28,
    "end": 862.5,
    "text": "And if you follow the steps,"
  },
  {
    "start": 862.55,
    "end": 864.82,
    "text": "you will end up with your test cases,"
  },
  {
    "start": 865.18,
    "end": 866.94,
    "text": "and then you prove the coverage."
  },
  {
    "start": 869.64,
    "end": 871.04,
    "text": "And then of course they came,"
  },
  {
    "start": 871.12,
    "end": 873.1,
    "text": "\"Yeah, but if we have those test cases,"
  },
  {
    "start": 873.28,
    "end": 875.68,
    "text": "then we have a situation here that we don't"
  },
  {
    "start": 875.68,
    "end": 876.379,
    "text": "test.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 876.38,
    "end": 876.6,
    "text": "And"
  },
  {
    "start": 876.6,
    "end": 879.6,
    "text": "I said, \"Well, but do you cover all these paths?\""
  },
  {
    "start": 879.6,
    "end": 881.02,
    "text": "\"Well, yeah, we have covered all of them,"
  },
  {
    "start": 881.1,
    "end": 882.0,
    "text": "but this is a specific"
  },
  {
    "start": 882.0,
    "end": 883.2,
    "text": "situation.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 883.26,
    "end": 885.16,
    "text": "And then I said, \"Well, this is where"
  },
  {
    "start": 885.96,
    "end": 888.86,
    "text": "coverage-based testing meets experience-based testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 889.02,
    "end": 892.8,
    "text": "So please go ahead and add an extra test case"
  },
  {
    "start": 892.93,
    "end": 894.0,
    "text": "based on your experience,"
  },
  {
    "start": 894.66,
    "end": 896.44,
    "text": "but don't throw away another one"
  },
  {
    "start": 896.51,
    "end": 897.88,
    "text": "because you need your coverage.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 898.42,
    "end": 899.52,
    "text": "- Yeah, that's true."
  },
  {
    "start": 899.7,
    "end": 900.82,
    "text": "I liked very"
  },
  {
    "start": 900.82,
    "end": 904.659,
    "text": "much the approach to learn the techniques"
  },
  {
    "start": 905.02,
    "end": 912.06,
    "text": "with real life examples, because in some courses or seminars, you learn it, the state transition"
  },
  {
    "start": 912.34,
    "end": 916.16,
    "text": "with an ATM, but you don't have to test an ATM every day."
  },
  {
    "start": 916.6,
    "end": 917.48,
    "text": "So and"
  },
  {
    "start": 917.48,
    "end": 923.22,
    "text": "the transfer to the daily work is for a lot of testers not often very easy, if they"
  },
  {
    "start": 923.28,
    "end": 926.8,
    "text": "don't see that how it works in their environment in their domain."
  },
  {
    "start": 927.52,
    "end": 933.14,
    "text": "So I like this approach to do it and to see so that these testers can see how it works"
  },
  {
    "start": 933.14,
    "end": 934.26,
    "text": "in their domain."
  },
  {
    "start": 935.06,
    "end": 937.6,
    "text": "How do you, or do you have experiences"
  },
  {
    "start": 938.26,
    "end": 942.34,
    "text": "with these techniques on the more developer near testing?"
  },
  {
    "start": 942.72,
    "end": 944.02,
    "text": "So unit testing and so on,"
  },
  {
    "start": 944.16,
    "end": 947.04,
    "text": "because sometimes developers or architects,"
  },
  {
    "start": 947.38,
    "end": 950.5,
    "text": "they say to me, all these techniques are stuff"
  },
  {
    "start": 950.5,
    "end": 952.08,
    "text": "for the testers and not for me."
  },
  {
    "start": 952.2,
    "end": 954.0,
    "text": "So I'm doing my own thing here."
  },
  {
    "start": 954.28,
    "end": 955.4,
    "text": "So what is your experience?"
  },
  {
    "start": 955.62,
    "end": 958.62,
    "text": "Well, developers,"
  },
  {
    "start": 959.34,
    "end": 960.7,
    "text": "especially in unit testing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 960.9,
    "end": 963.58,
    "text": "they often focus on code coverage."
  },
  {
    "start": 964.36,
    "end": 966.9,
    "text": "And what we have described,"
  },
  {
    "start": 967.18,
    "end": 970.08,
    "text": "and the Quality for DevOps Teams book"
  },
  {
    "start": 970.16,
    "end": 973.4,
    "text": "has four main authors and two of them are developers."
  },
  {
    "start": 973.62,
    "end": 975.34,
    "text": "And so two are for quality and testing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 975.88,
    "end": 976.98,
    "text": "the other two are developers."
  },
  {
    "start": 977.64,
    "end": 980.42,
    "text": "And with them, we looked into code coverage"
  },
  {
    "start": 980.78,
    "end": 984.94,
    "text": "and the most simple coverage measure,"
  },
  {
    "start": 985.3,
    "end": 987.24,
    "text": "because often developers only say,"
  },
  {
    "start": 987.24,
    "end": 988.56,
    "text": "we have 100% coverage."
  },
  {
    "start": 989.32,
    "end": 990.88,
    "text": "And then it doesn't say much"
  },
  {
    "start": 990.88,
    "end": 993.36,
    "text": "because you first have to specify what kind of coverage."
  },
  {
    "start": 993.92,
    "end": 995.34,
    "text": "And often they have line coverage."
  },
  {
    "start": 995.86,
    "end": 998.44,
    "text": "Now, some developers manage to put five statements"
  },
  {
    "start": 998.5,
    "end": 999.22,
    "text": "on one line."
  },
  {
    "start": 999.67,
    "end": 1001.46,
    "text": "If you execute only one statement,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1001.51,
    "end": 1003.86,
    "text": "you already have 100% coverage of that line."
  },
  {
    "start": 1004.72,
    "end": 1007.84,
    "text": "So I always say, at least don't do line coverage,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1007.94,
    "end": 1009.48,
    "text": "but at least have statement coverage"
  },
  {
    "start": 1009.66,
    "end": 1011.48,
    "text": "so that every statement has been tested."
  },
  {
    "start": 1013.24,
    "end": 1016.22,
    "text": "But better even is decision coverage"
  },
  {
    "start": 1016.32,
    "end": 1020.86,
    "text": "because the most important statements in your software"
  },
  {
    "start": 1020.86,
    "end": 1026.74,
    "text": "the decisions, because a move statement that moves some value to a variable,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1027.52,
    "end": 1029.62,
    "text": "well, the chance that that works is quite high."
  },
  {
    "start": 1030.199,
    "end": 1034.0,
    "text": "So, of course, you can test it, but there's not much of a risk there."
  },
  {
    "start": 1034.14,
    "end": 1042.22,
    "text": "But in the if statements, the decisions or while loops,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1042.48,
    "end": 1046.22,
    "text": "and you want to know if it does the loop the number of times it's supposed to do,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1046.66,
    "end": 1049.86,
    "text": "then you need to have decision coverage"
  },
  {
    "start": 1049.97,
    "end": 1052.96,
    "text": "because you wanna have the good situation"
  },
  {
    "start": 1053.08,
    "end": 1053.66,
    "text": "and the fault"
  },
  {
    "start": 1053.66,
    "end": 1054.32,
    "text": "situation."
  },
  {
    "start": 1056.1,
    "end": 1059.36,
    "text": "And to manage to have decision coverage,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1059.39,
    "end": 1062.64,
    "text": "you can already apply simple techniques."
  },
  {
    "start": 1065.16,
    "end": 1069.62,
    "text": "For example, equivalence partitioning helps"
  },
  {
    "start": 1070.16,
    "end": 1073.94,
    "text": "with finding the wrong result and the right result"
  },
  {
    "start": 1074.02,
    "end": 1075.46,
    "text": "because you have two classes"
  },
  {
    "start": 1075.46,
    "end": 1078.14,
    "text": "and then you must make sure that you have a test case for every class."
  },
  {
    "start": 1078.76,
    "end": 1083.16,
    "text": "And equivalence partitioning is the most basic simple test design technique,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1083.98,
    "end": 1086.92,
    "text": "but many developers, they only test the happy path."
  },
  {
    "start": 1087.38,
    "end": 1087.46,
    "text": "So,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1087.46,
    "end": 1089.68,
    "text": "they forget to test the wrong situation."
  },
  {
    "start": 1090.5,
    "end": 1092.78,
    "text": "Now, and that's already how we can help them."
  },
  {
    "start": 1092.88,
    "end": 1099.26,
    "text": "And of course, equivalence partitioning is almost as intuitive as boundary value analysis."
  },
  {
    "start": 1099.5,
    "end": 1101.9,
    "text": "So, it's not too difficult to teach them"
  },
  {
    "start": 1101.9,
    "end": 1105.9,
    "text": "because it's more a thing of awareness than actual teaching."
  },
  {
    "start": 1106.56,
    "end": 1108.98,
    "text": "Because most developers, if you tell them,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1108.99,
    "end": 1110.68,
    "text": "you should not only test happy paths,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1110.78,
    "end": 1112.9,
    "text": "but also what happens if you do it wrong,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1113.68,
    "end": 1115.8,
    "text": "they say, \"Oh yeah, yeah, well, it makes sense, yeah,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1115.9,
    "end": 1118.16,
    "text": "but then I get twice as many test cases.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 1118.16,
    "end": 1119.02,
    "text": "Yes, you do."
  },
  {
    "start": 1119.34,
    "end": 1119.46,
    "text": "- Yeah,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1119.68,
    "end": 1120.94,
    "text": "yeah, yeah, correct, yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1121.68,
    "end": 1121.96,
    "text": "Do"
  },
  {
    "start": 1121.96,
    "end": 1126.18,
    "text": "you see any test design techniques which evolve today"
  },
  {
    "start": 1126.9,
    "end": 1129.58,
    "text": "or are those all test design techniques"
  },
  {
    "start": 1129.58,
    "end": 1133.3,
    "text": "they're known since 20, 30, 40 years."
  },
  {
    "start": 1133.94,
    "end": 1134.2,
    "text": "Yeah,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1134.48,
    "end": 1136.8,
    "text": "almost, well, let's say,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1137.72,
    "end": 1141.28,
    "text": "for as I know, all test design techniques"
  },
  {
    "start": 1141.5,
    "end": 1144.04,
    "text": "are described in books that are more than 20 years"
  },
  {
    "start": 1144.04,
    "end": 1144.3,
    "text": "old."
  },
  {
    "start": 1145.16,
    "end": 1147.1,
    "text": "You have the first book I know"
  },
  {
    "start": 1147.16,
    "end": 1149.04,
    "text": "is \"The Art of Software Testing\" of Glenford Myers,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1149.22,
    "end": 1150.54,
    "text": "which is 45 years ago."
  },
  {
    "start": 1151.26,
    "end": 1152.94,
    "text": "It describes boundary value analysis,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1153.22,
    "end": 1156.04,
    "text": "equivalence partitioning, well, some others."
  },
  {
    "start": 1157.34,
    "end": 1158.96,
    "text": "Then we have the book of Boris Bitzer."
  },
  {
    "start": 1160.74,
    "end": 1164.18,
    "text": "And we have the old TMAP books"
  },
  {
    "start": 1164.56,
    "end": 1168.52,
    "text": "because ISTQB often refers to Boris Bitzer"
  },
  {
    "start": 1168.84,
    "end": 1170.4,
    "text": "and a bit to Myers."
  },
  {
    "start": 1172.2,
    "end": 1176.02,
    "text": "And they also refer to some of the previous TMAP books."
  },
  {
    "start": 1176.38,
    "end": 1178.76,
    "text": "But one of the things that I'm still puzzled"
  },
  {
    "start": 1178.76,
    "end": 1182.46,
    "text": "is why not more people have adopted path testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1183.02,
    "end": 1186.94,
    "text": "Because in ISTQB, the only process oriented technique,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1186.98,
    "end": 1191.12,
    "text": "they teach is state transition testing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1192.74,
    "end": 1194.84,
    "text": "which is about states."
  },
  {
    "start": 1195.56,
    "end": 1199.24,
    "text": "And not too many systems have states,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1199.24,
    "end": 1202.94,
    "text": "and especially if you want to test acceptance testing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1203.28,
    "end": 1205.36,
    "text": "you want to test flows, business flows."
  },
  {
    "start": 1205.98,
    "end": 1209.46,
    "text": "And path testing is about covering all the paths"
  },
  {
    "start": 1209.46,
    "end": 1210.46,
    "text": "in your business flow."
  },
  {
    "start": 1211.84,
    "end": 1216.08,
    "text": "So, yeah, and I now notice it because I told you"
  },
  {
    "start": 1215.82,
    "end": 1222.42,
    "text": "I have currently a project where I guide the business analysts in doing path testing and"
  },
  {
    "start": 1222.84,
    "end": 1224.1,
    "text": "that actually works for them."
  },
  {
    "start": 1224.1,
    "end": 1225.46,
    "text": "Yeah, that's"
  },
  {
    "start": 1225.46,
    "end": 1227.14,
    "text": "also their view on the system."
  },
  {
    "start": 1227.52,
    "end": 1228.24,
    "text": "So this is"
  },
  {
    "start": 1228.24,
    "end": 1230.6,
    "text": "how they think about the business process."
  },
  {
    "start": 1230.82,
    "end": 1231.0,
    "text": "Yes."
  },
  {
    "start": 1232.12,
    "end": 1239.96,
    "text": "Rik, do you have one special design technique you like the most, which is your absolute"
  },
  {
    "start": 1240.3,
    "end": 1244.7,
    "text": "favorite because it's so sophisticated or so nice to use?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1245.3,
    "end": 1249.8,
    "text": "Well, I like many of them."
  },
  {
    "start": 1249.92,
    "end": 1252.02,
    "text": "So, let me give you my top three."
  },
  {
    "start": 1252.32,
    "end": 1252.72,
    "text": "Yeah, okay."
  },
  {
    "start": 1252.92,
    "end": 1257.0,
    "text": "So, not surprisingly, path testing is in my top three."
  },
  {
    "start": 1257.96,
    "end": 1266.42,
    "text": "I also like decision tables because they are very good for testing each and every possibility."
  },
  {
    "start": 1267.24,
    "end": 1271.06,
    "text": "The only downside of decision tables is they quickly grow out of hand."
  },
  {
    "start": 1271.34,
    "end": 1275.14,
    "text": "If you have more than five conditions, it doesn't work anymore, it gets too big."
  },
  {
    "start": 1276.12,
    "end": 1280.94,
    "text": "But in most situations, nobody has five conditions to determine one outcome."
  },
  {
    "start": 1281.28,
    "end": 1282.82,
    "text": "So normally it works fine."
  },
  {
    "start": 1283.34,
    "end": 1289.4,
    "text": "And the last one is, I already mentioned it, rather complex, the elementary comparison"
  },
  {
    "start": 1289.62,
    "end": 1289.92,
    "text": "test."
  },
  {
    "start": 1290.56,
    "end": 1297.18,
    "text": "And to properly learn that, I'm convinced that I need to give people a one-day workshop,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1297.52,
    "end": 1298.88,
    "text": "which I've done in the past."
  },
  {
    "start": 1300.38,
    "end": 1305.24,
    "text": "And then they get it good enough to apply it in real life."
  },
  {
    "start": 1306.64,
    "end": 1313.32,
    "text": "And for that, we also have templates because elementary comparison test tests multiple"
  },
  {
    "start": 1313.76,
    "end": 1314.82,
    "text": "decision points."
  },
  {
    "start": 1315.24,
    "end": 1320.54,
    "text": "And for every decision point, the coverage will be modified condition decision coverage."
  },
  {
    "start": 1321.56,
    "end": 1324.4,
    "text": "So why is it somewhat complex?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1324.62,
    "end": 1328.58,
    "text": "Because first for every decision point, you have to apply modified condition decision"
  },
  {
    "start": 1328.8,
    "end": 1328.94,
    "text": "coverage."
  },
  {
    "start": 1329.58,
    "end": 1331.82,
    "text": "That gives you what we call the test situations."
  },
  {
    "start": 1332.62,
    "end": 1335.18,
    "text": "And then you have to combine the test situations"
  },
  {
    "start": 1335.22,
    "end": 1339.4,
    "text": "of every decision point into test cases"
  },
  {
    "start": 1339.56,
    "end": 1342.4,
    "text": "from start to end for a process."
  },
  {
    "start": 1342.74,
    "end": 1346.86,
    "text": "And so if path testing doesn't give you enough coverage"
  },
  {
    "start": 1348.399,
    "end": 1351.86,
    "text": "because multiple combinations of condition outcomes"
  },
  {
    "start": 1352.0,
    "end": 1353.44,
    "text": "may lead to the same paths,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1353.98,
    "end": 1356.16,
    "text": "and then in path testing, you only have one test case,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1356.22,
    "end": 1357.86,
    "text": "and in elementary comparison test,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1357.9,
    "end": 1359.52,
    "text": "you will do all the possibilities."
  },
  {
    "start": 1360.12,
    "end": 1362.46,
    "text": "So it will give you a little more test cases,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1363.68,
    "end": 1365.32,
    "text": "but it's the highest coverage"
  },
  {
    "start": 1365.32,
    "end": 1365.8,
    "text": "you"
  },
  {
    "start": 1365.8,
    "end": 1365.98,
    "text": "can have."
  },
  {
    "start": 1366.0,
    "end": 1367.34,
    "text": "- Very strong test cases."
  },
  {
    "start": 1367.38,
    "end": 1367.72,
    "text": "- Yeah, very."
  },
  {
    "start": 1368.24,
    "end": 1371.98,
    "text": "Yeah, if it passes those test cases,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1372.18,
    "end": 1373.58,
    "text": "you have good confidence that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1373.58,
    "end": 1374.56,
    "text": "the system will work."
  },
  {
    "start": 1375.34,
    "end": 1376.78,
    "text": "- Great, thank you for your top three."
  },
  {
    "start": 1377.4,
    "end": 1378.58,
    "text": "So you mentioned the book"
  },
  {
    "start": 1379.08,
    "end": 1381.0,
    "text": "and we have here for the podcast audience"
  },
  {
    "start": 1381.54,
    "end": 1384.14,
    "text": "a special benefit like in other episodes,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1384.5,
    "end": 1387.68,
    "text": "we will give away five of these books."
  },
  {
    "start": 1388.16,
    "end": 1388.56,
    "text": "So you can"
  },
  {
    "start": 1388.56,
    "end": 1388.92,
    "text": "win them."
  },
  {
    "start": 1389.0,
    "end": 1390.36,
    "text": "You have the link in the show notes."
  },
  {
    "start": 1390.92,
    "end": 1392.54,
    "text": "And then good luck for this."
  },
  {
    "start": 1392.6,
    "end": 1394.5,
    "text": "And I have this book at home too."
  },
  {
    "start": 1394.64,
    "end": 1397.14,
    "text": "And you gave it to me last year"
  },
  {
    "start": 1397.26,
    "end": 1400.4,
    "text": "and I like it very much as a reference for my daily work."
  },
  {
    "start": 1400.5,
    "end": 1403.48,
    "text": "So I can just do the lottery and win this book."
  },
  {
    "start": 1404.25,
    "end": 1404.36,
    "text": "(laughs)"
  },
  {
    "start": 1404.36,
    "end": 1404.46,
    "text": "- Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1405.1,
    "end": 1407.72,
    "text": "- Yeah, Rik, thank you very much for joining this podcast."
  },
  {
    "start": 1407.87,
    "end": 1408.68,
    "text": "It was very interesting."
  },
  {
    "start": 1408.8,
    "end": 1410.18,
    "text": "I think test design techniques,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1410.27,
    "end": 1413.5,
    "text": "this is a topic we have to pull up on the stage."
  },
  {
    "start": 1414.46,
    "end": 1420.62,
    "text": "more. So I'm happy that you are doing that and for your work and for your passion for"
  },
  {
    "start": 1420.7,
    "end": 1423.82,
    "text": "these techniques. And yeah, thank you very much to be here."
  },
  {
    "start": 1424.12,
    "end": 1430.0,
    "text": "Well, it was my pleasure, Richie. And thanks for inviting me. And I look forward to the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1430.24,
    "end": 1431.96,
    "text": "remainder of this weekend here at the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1431.96,
    "end": 1432.5,
    "text": "testing retreat."
  },
  {
    "start": 1432.86,
    "end": 1436.16,
    "text": "Yes, yes. We'll see what comes. Thank you very much. Bye."
  },
  {
    "start": 1436.24,
    "end": 1437.04,
    "text": "Okay. Bye bye."
  },
  {
    "start": 1437.26,
    "end": 1439.54,
    "text": "[MUSIC"
  },
  {
    "start": 1439.54,
    "end": 1440.26,
    "text": "PLAYING]"
  }
]