[
  {
    "start": 0.999,
    "end": 9.5,
    "text": "Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed, the podcast for testers, developers and software makers who live quality as an attitude."
  },
  {
    "start": 10.4,
    "end": 19.28,
    "text": "Get fresh ideas and sharp insights to grow your mindset, to learn new methods and to drive real change in how we build software."
  },
  {
    "start": 19.66,
    "end": 22.98,
    "text": "Better software and better teams for a better world."
  },
  {
    "start": 32.32,
    "end": 35.98,
    "text": "Hi, I'm Richie, software quality coach, keynote speaker,"
  },
  {
    "start": 35.98,
    "end": 36.48,
    "text": "and author."
  },
  {
    "start": 37.62,
    "end": 40.18,
    "text": "My guest today is Barış Sarıalioğlu."
  },
  {
    "start": 40.9,
    "end": 43.4,
    "text": "Baris has more than 20 years of experience"
  },
  {
    "start": 43.4,
    "end": 45.26,
    "text": "in IT and software engineering."
  },
  {
    "start": 46.06,
    "end": 49.52,
    "text": "He's an expert in digital transformation, agility, AI,"
  },
  {
    "start": 49.8,
    "end": 56.36,
    "text": "software development and testing. He has led global teams across industries like telecom,"
  },
  {
    "start": 56.62,
    "end": 62.24,
    "text": "banking, aviation, defense and e-commerce and he has spoken at over 100 conferences worldwide."
  },
  {
    "start": 63.16,
    "end": 69.04,
    "text": "His work connects leadership, innovation and technology to create real impact. In this episode"
  },
  {
    "start": 69.16,
    "end": 77.08,
    "text": "we talked about a very specific topic. We talked about testing as both art and science, inspired by"
  },
  {
    "start": 77.08,
    "end": 83.94,
    "text": "Leonardo da Vinci. What if da Vinci had been a tester? How would curiosity, observation,"
  },
  {
    "start": 84.14,
    "end": 90.24,
    "text": "and experimentation shape our work today? Why can a painting like the Mona Lisa teach us more about"
  },
  {
    "start": 90.38,
    "end": 96.34,
    "text": "uncertainty than a hundred pages of test reports? And why do we need to embrace imperfection instead"
  },
  {
    "start": 96.34,
    "end": 103.8,
    "text": "of chasing perfection? We explored how testers can balance logic with creativity, with artful"
  },
  {
    "start": 103.8,
    "end": 111.34,
    "text": "storytelling makes test results more powerful and why simplicity is often the highest form of quality."
  },
  {
    "start": 111.92,
    "end": 117.7,
    "text": "You will hear how combine engineering with empathy to create impact that goes beyond"
  },
  {
    "start": 117.94,
    "end": 124.4,
    "text": "bugs and metrics. And now enjoy the episode. Hello Baris, great to have you on the show here."
  },
  {
    "start": 125.74,
    "end": 133.06,
    "text": "Hello Richie, thanks for having me. Yeah, it's a pleasure for me because I knew you from the"
  },
  {
    "start": 132.76,
    "end": 139.34,
    "text": "community a lot from ISTQB and from other events and LinkedIn and so on. I'm really happy that you"
  },
  {
    "start": 140.22,
    "end": 145.82,
    "text": "are now here in our show and we can discuss a very interesting topic, I think."
  },
  {
    "start": 147.96,
    "end": 156.22,
    "text": "Because you had a really cool metaphoric idea about testing and how we do testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 159.48,
    "end": 167.44,
    "text": "I don't know really how to introduce it correctly, but if Da Vinci would be a tester,"
  },
  {
    "start": 168.28,
    "end": 175.36,
    "text": "what would he do? I think it's a very great question. What's behind that? What do you think"
  },
  {
    "start": 175.48,
    "end": 185.64,
    "text": "about that? - To be honest, after spending more than 20 years in the industry, I'm looking for some,"
  },
  {
    "start": 187.8,
    "end": 197.92,
    "text": "How can I say? I want to correlate other things to testing, rather than talking about the technical"
  },
  {
    "start": 198.26,
    "end": 205.72,
    "text": "dimensions, all the frameworks, tooling and other very precise and engineering stuff. I want to see"
  },
  {
    "start": 206.24,
    "end": 214.68,
    "text": "if I can correlate it to my private life, my daily routine, how I think, how I feel,"
  },
  {
    "start": 214.92,
    "end": 221.76,
    "text": "how I breathe air, I don't know, how I listen to music, to have fun."
  },
  {
    "start": 222.28,
    "end": 227.46,
    "text": "So those occasions could be connected to testing, if you ask me."
  },
  {
    "start": 227.54,
    "end": 229.94,
    "text": "So that is the intention behind it."
  },
  {
    "start": 230.06,
    "end": 234.44,
    "text": "So because I like paintings and I like art,"
  },
  {
    "start": 234.98,
    "end": 239.7,
    "text": "I feel that it is closely correlated to testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 240.26,
    "end": 243.18,
    "text": "So can I do it like that?"
  },
  {
    "start": 243.24,
    "end": 250.8,
    "text": "and the most, maybe one of the most popular and famous person behind it"
  },
  {
    "start": 250.8,
    "end": 257.06,
    "text": "is one of my idols, to be honest, Leonardo da Vinci for sure."
  },
  {
    "start": 257.859,
    "end": 262.78,
    "text": "And I started with that person. So that was the idea."
  },
  {
    "start": 262.96,
    "end": 266.76,
    "text": "And I did a conference talk in Greece,"
  },
  {
    "start": 267.74,
    "end": 272.26,
    "text": "which had a lot of very, very nice feedback."
  },
  {
    "start": 273.68,
    "end": 275.44,
    "text": "Now I'm comfortable on that."
  },
  {
    "start": 275.52,
    "end": 276.74,
    "text": "So you can discuss."
  },
  {
    "start": 277.3,
    "end": 280.14,
    "text": "- Yeah, so let's deep dive into it"
  },
  {
    "start": 280.3,
    "end": 282.6,
    "text": "because I remember a long time ago"
  },
  {
    "start": 282.6,
    "end": 284.84,
    "text": "in one of my first testing project,"
  },
  {
    "start": 284.94,
    "end": 286.12,
    "text": "the project manager came to me"
  },
  {
    "start": 286.4,
    "end": 289.46,
    "text": "and said, \"You are not a tester, you are an artist.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 289.46,
    "end": 292.76,
    "text": "And I can, well, I'm an artist, I'm testing here."
  },
  {
    "start": 292.9,
    "end": 296.44,
    "text": "So, and it's now resonates so much with your topic."
  },
  {
    "start": 296.88,
    "end": 302.28,
    "text": "So when we look at Da Vinci, what can we learn from him?"
  },
  {
    "start": 304.76,
    "end": 307.14,
    "text": "- Yeah, of course, he's a very deep person."
  },
  {
    "start": 309.399,
    "end": 315.24,
    "text": "He lived mostly in the 15th and 16th century."
  },
  {
    "start": 316.18,
    "end": 320.14,
    "text": "And when we look at him, he is not only an artist,"
  },
  {
    "start": 320.32,
    "end": 321.36,
    "text": "but also an engineer."
  },
  {
    "start": 321.54,
    "end": 323.5,
    "text": "He's like us, you and me."
  },
  {
    "start": 324.48,
    "end": 329.06,
    "text": "So in combination to art,"
  },
  {
    "start": 329.43,
    "end": 332.62,
    "text": "we know that he's a very curious person."
  },
  {
    "start": 334.02,
    "end": 337.08,
    "text": "He's also a very precise person."
  },
  {
    "start": 338.36,
    "end": 340.9,
    "text": "He knows strategical thinking,"
  },
  {
    "start": 341.82,
    "end": 344.78,
    "text": "and he created a lot of engineering pieces,"
  },
  {
    "start": 345.42,
    "end": 347.94,
    "text": "machinery tools, as well as of course,"
  },
  {
    "start": 348.06,
    "end": 350.18,
    "text": "the paintings and sculpture and other things."
  },
  {
    "start": 350.77,
    "end": 353.24,
    "text": "So it's like the combination of both."
  },
  {
    "start": 353.6,
    "end": 357.72,
    "text": "When you ask me, testing is more or less the same thing."
  },
  {
    "start": 358.26,
    "end": 362.78,
    "text": "Using the left side of our brain as well as the right side of our brain."
  },
  {
    "start": 363.42,
    "end": 371.1,
    "text": "The left side represents the logic, rationality, numbers, data, observations,"
  },
  {
    "start": 372.6,
    "end": 373.96,
    "text": "which is fully needed."
  },
  {
    "start": 374.64,
    "end": 377.7,
    "text": "But on the right hand side, you need to have empathy,"
  },
  {
    "start": 377.93,
    "end": 381.26,
    "text": "you need to have imagination, you need to have creativity,"
  },
  {
    "start": 381.36,
    "end": 389.54,
    "text": "you need to be spontaneous, you need to look at the holistic picture, so that is our right brain."
  },
  {
    "start": 390.26,
    "end": 398.48,
    "text": "So I think he is one of the best people in the world using both sides of his brain, so it is my"
  },
  {
    "start": 399.54,
    "end": 407.36,
    "text": "first privilege to use his name in my presentation, so that was the origination of the idea."
  },
  {
    "start": 408.32,
    "end": 415.7,
    "text": "I find it very interesting to also focus one time on the second part,"
  },
  {
    "start": 415.7,
    "end": 418.16,
    "text": "on the artist part in us,"
  },
  {
    "start": 418.34,
    "end": 423.34,
    "text": "and on the curiosity and all this creativity we have,"
  },
  {
    "start": 423.54,
    "end": 426.16,
    "text": "because it's a main part of our job, isn't it?"
  },
  {
    "start": 427.9,
    "end": 428.24,
    "text": "Of course."
  },
  {
    "start": 429.14,
    "end": 432.7,
    "text": "I think one part of our job is to implement things"
  },
  {
    "start": 433.5,
    "end": 435.82,
    "text": "and to do the thing."
  },
  {
    "start": 436.56,
    "end": 441.48,
    "text": "The other part is to present it, to create the communication around it."
  },
  {
    "start": 442.2,
    "end": 446.6,
    "text": "So if one part is missing, if the engineering part is missing, you are in a mess."
  },
  {
    "start": 447.12,
    "end": 452.96,
    "text": "But if you cannot sell what you have done, what you have created, I think it is nonsense."
  },
  {
    "start": 453.74,
    "end": 457.82,
    "text": "So it's just a waste of time, if you ask me."
  },
  {
    "start": 458.06,
    "end": 467.76,
    "text": "So, on that particular point, I am deeply using my communication part,"
  },
  {
    "start": 468.18,
    "end": 475.28,
    "text": "so the soft skills, and I find myself doing lots of presentations,"
  },
  {
    "start": 475.78,
    "end": 482.22,
    "text": "trainings and all other things, just to show the engineering part to people."
  },
  {
    "start": 482.48,
    "end": 486.64,
    "text": "So, that is why I think we need to be artists, to convince people,"
  },
  {
    "start": 486.82,
    "end": 494.74,
    "text": "to sell testing, to promote testing, to ask for funding on testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 494.88,
    "end": 497.22,
    "text": "So how shall I do that?"
  },
  {
    "start": 497.96,
    "end": 502.32,
    "text": "I need to act like an artist and also I need to think like an artist."
  },
  {
    "start": 502.62,
    "end": 504.56,
    "text": "So that was the triggering point."
  },
  {
    "start": 506.18,
    "end": 510.02,
    "text": "You said how to think as an artist. How does an artist think?"
  },
  {
    "start": 512.02,
    "end": 516.78,
    "text": "Of course, it is based on whom we are talking about."
  },
  {
    "start": 517.55,
    "end": 523.56,
    "text": "If we are talking about Da Vinci, we know his engineering discipline."
  },
  {
    "start": 523.78,
    "end": 529.18,
    "text": "But of course, there are many other valuable portraits in the past,"
  },
  {
    "start": 529.5,
    "end": 531.3,
    "text": "like Vincent van Gogh, for instance."
  },
  {
    "start": 532.12,
    "end": 537.12,
    "text": "He is a more emotional person, more intuitive person,"
  },
  {
    "start": 537.5,
    "end": 542.26,
    "text": "a more intense person, a little bit more introvert,"
  },
  {
    "start": 542.66,
    "end": 545.52,
    "text": "but yeah, very correlated to nature."
  },
  {
    "start": 546.58,
    "end": 548.1,
    "text": "When you go to Pablo Picasso,"
  },
  {
    "start": 549.14,
    "end": 551.52,
    "text": "we see that he's a very bold person,"
  },
  {
    "start": 552.66,
    "end": 556.16,
    "text": "also a chaotic person and an inventive person,"
  },
  {
    "start": 556.8,
    "end": 557.58,
    "text": "very brave one."
  },
  {
    "start": 558.6,
    "end": 559.82,
    "text": "When you go to Rembrandt,"
  },
  {
    "start": 560.92,
    "end": 564.72,
    "text": "let me say he is maybe the most thoughtful of all those,"
  },
  {
    "start": 565.28,
    "end": 567.74,
    "text": "quiet person and very observant."
  },
  {
    "start": 569.31,
    "end": 572.58,
    "text": "I don't know, Salvador Dali, surreal,"
  },
  {
    "start": 573.7,
    "end": 575.62,
    "text": "but also clever and unpredictable."
  },
  {
    "start": 576.9,
    "end": 582.34,
    "text": "So again, when you, I think you are agreeing with me on that."
  },
  {
    "start": 582.42,
    "end": 584.62,
    "text": "So we need all of those things, am I right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 585.2,
    "end": 586.62,
    "text": "- Yeah. - Not only curiosity,"
  },
  {
    "start": 586.94,
    "end": 590.26,
    "text": "but also to run in a chaotic area,"
  },
  {
    "start": 591.02,
    "end": 594.26,
    "text": "not only strategical, but also inventive"
  },
  {
    "start": 594.39,
    "end": 596.06,
    "text": "and observant and thoughtful."
  },
  {
    "start": 597.2,
    "end": 601.04,
    "text": "So I try to combine everything together."
  },
  {
    "start": 601.22,
    "end": 604.0,
    "text": "But of course, when we come to Da Vinci,"
  },
  {
    "start": 606.54,
    "end": 608.84,
    "text": "there's a strong evidence, if you ask me,"
  },
  {
    "start": 608.96,
    "end": 611.42,
    "text": "that shows that Da Vinci was a tester."
  },
  {
    "start": 611.9,
    "end": 613.48,
    "text": "I'm going to tell it to you now."
  },
  {
    "start": 614.38,
    "end": 619.379,
    "text": "But again, combination of many, many different perspectives"
  },
  {
    "start": 619.46,
    "end": 628.48,
    "text": "into testing. If you ask me, I would tell you how I can prove you that Da Vinci was"
  },
  {
    "start": 628.5,
    "end": 628.9,
    "text": "a tester."
  },
  {
    "start": 628.9,
    "end": 632.46,
    "text": "Yes, now I'm very curious. So tell me."
  },
  {
    "start": 634.3,
    "end": 645.4,
    "text": "Again, I think you also know him very well. After his life is ended, they found, of course,"
  },
  {
    "start": 645.46,
    "end": 648.82,
    "text": "lot of art pieces, as well as the notes,"
  },
  {
    "start": 649.66,
    "end": 653.52,
    "text": "like 5,000 to 7,000 pages of notes"
  },
  {
    "start": 654.92,
    "end": 657.7,
    "text": "he has taken through his entire life."
  },
  {
    "start": 658.6,
    "end": 663.22,
    "text": "It makes him a very keen observer"
  },
  {
    "start": 664.0,
    "end": 666.3,
    "text": "and a compulsive note taker, if you ask me."
  },
  {
    "start": 666.61,
    "end": 668.92,
    "text": "So he's the documentarian guy."
  },
  {
    "start": 670.0,
    "end": 674.24,
    "text": "Also is a bug whisperer."
  },
  {
    "start": 674.4,
    "end": 681.3,
    "text": "from that perspective and when we see testers we also create a lot of documents and"
  },
  {
    "start": 681.66,
    "end": 688.5,
    "text": "the documentation part is also there. What about his endless curiosity? He is just"
  },
  {
    "start": 690.38,
    "end": 696.7,
    "text": "jumping into uncertainties and try to... he's always a curious person he was so"
  },
  {
    "start": 696.84,
    "end": 703.519,
    "text": "makes him an explorer guy. So when we look at testing we want exploratory"
  },
  {
    "start": 703.52,
    "end": 713.4,
    "text": "tests and we want exploration in our testing. Also, we see Da Vinci as an interdisciplinary"
  },
  {
    "start": 713.8,
    "end": 722.12,
    "text": "thinker. He is combining forces from engineering, from science, from mechanics, from many different"
  },
  {
    "start": 722.2,
    "end": 730.14,
    "text": "disciplines, art, into one body, one human body. But what about a tester? We are also a"
  },
  {
    "start": 731.2,
    "end": 732.92,
    "text": "a synthesizer, am I right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 732.92,
    "end": 736.56,
    "text": "So we need to act in an interdisciplinary way."
  },
  {
    "start": 737.36,
    "end": 739.56,
    "text": "We need to know about computer programming,"
  },
  {
    "start": 740.0,
    "end": 744.04,
    "text": "also computer networks, some hardware stuff,"
  },
  {
    "start": 744.74,
    "end": 746.76,
    "text": "architectural things, frameworks,"
  },
  {
    "start": 747.54,
    "end": 749.22,
    "text": "many things we need to know like him."
  },
  {
    "start": 750.2,
    "end": 758.04,
    "text": "Also, he's a very high level experimental person,"
  },
  {
    "start": 759.16,
    "end": 761.32,
    "text": "So doing a lot of experimentation."
  },
  {
    "start": 761.68,
    "end": 766.42,
    "text": "Testing is in one part an experimentation for us."
  },
  {
    "start": 766.92,
    "end": 768.86,
    "text": "Also, he is a very visionary person."
  },
  {
    "start": 769.76,
    "end": 771.68,
    "text": "If you ask me, a tester should be"
  },
  {
    "start": 771.72,
    "end": 773.28,
    "text": "a futuristic person as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 775.78,
    "end": 781.22,
    "text": "Also, he is very comfortable with messy environments"
  },
  {
    "start": 781.42,
    "end": 785.26,
    "text": "with ambiguity when everything is not very clear."
  },
  {
    "start": 785.46,
    "end": 786.9,
    "text": "He is there up and running."
  },
  {
    "start": 787.08,
    "end": 787.74,
    "text": "What about us?"
  },
  {
    "start": 787.94,
    "end": 791.1,
    "text": "We are always in messy requirements."
  },
  {
    "start": 791.38,
    "end": 796.04,
    "text": "So I have more than 20 lines of proofs for that."
  },
  {
    "start": 796.2,
    "end": 798.58,
    "text": "That, yeah, is also a tester like us."
  },
  {
    "start": 800.1,
    "end": 802.92,
    "text": "So we are all little da Vinci's in our project."
  },
  {
    "start": 803.76,
    "end": 804.32,
    "text": "[LAUGHS]"
  },
  {
    "start": 808.06,
    "end": 809.74,
    "text": "So what do you think?"
  },
  {
    "start": 809.82,
    "end": 813.659,
    "text": "How can we more get a--"
  },
  {
    "start": 813.66,
    "end": 819.54,
    "text": "make a balance of more of this artist skills in our testing life"
  },
  {
    "start": 819.54,
    "end": 821.92,
    "text": "to get more, to learn this."
  },
  {
    "start": 822.12,
    "end": 828.52,
    "text": "Because I think projects are often driven in a very logical way, rational way."
  },
  {
    "start": 828.9,
    "end": 833.32,
    "text": "How can we force and evolve more the artist in us?"
  },
  {
    "start": 835.5,
    "end": 841.78,
    "text": "That was also a question I wanted to answer in my keynote session,"
  },
  {
    "start": 842.98,
    "end": 849.82,
    "text": "in which I, in detail, examined the paintings of Da Vinci."
  },
  {
    "start": 851.04,
    "end": 854.98,
    "text": "For instance, if we start with Mona Lisa,"
  },
  {
    "start": 855.6,
    "end": 858.74,
    "text": "which is maybe the most popular one,"
  },
  {
    "start": 860.22,
    "end": 865.28,
    "text": "we can see the smile of uncertainty on her face."
  },
  {
    "start": 865.32,
    "end": 868.18,
    "text": "Am I right? A little bit uncertain, smiling,"
  },
  {
    "start": 868.38,
    "end": 872.12,
    "text": "but a little bit also serious, I don't know."
  },
  {
    "start": 872.3,
    "end": 876.12,
    "text": "And he has a very nice quotation"
  },
  {
    "start": 876.94,
    "end": 882.16,
    "text": "Da Vinci he says the greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions"
  },
  {
    "start": 882.51,
    "end": 886.36,
    "text": "so when I see that quotation, I just convert it into"
  },
  {
    "start": 887.48,
    "end": 893.5,
    "text": "For instance from ISD to be testing principles. It could be converted into absence of errors policy"
  },
  {
    "start": 895.5,
    "end": 896.939,
    "text": "So is it"
  },
  {
    "start": 896.94,
    "end": 899.68,
    "text": "Could it be correlated to Mona Lisa's smile?"
  },
  {
    "start": 899.98,
    "end": 902.88,
    "text": "It's like internal metrics may look very perfect,"
  },
  {
    "start": 904.16,
    "end": 908.02,
    "text": "but the true quality is how users perceive it."
  },
  {
    "start": 908.14,
    "end": 908.6,
    "text": "Am I right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 909.44,
    "end": 913.04,
    "text": "So in the end, we maybe think that all the bugs are fixed,"
  },
  {
    "start": 914.58,
    "end": 918.14,
    "text": "but the serious look of our customer shows that"
  },
  {
    "start": 918.88,
    "end": 920.58,
    "text": "the final quality is not there."
  },
  {
    "start": 920.82,
    "end": 932.66,
    "text": "So that would be, I think, a good reflection on one of his art pieces into testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 933.12,
    "end": 938.28,
    "text": "Also, when we look at the modern testing principles coming from the Ministry of Testing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 939.88,
    "end": 943.96,
    "text": "they say the customer is the only one capable of evaluating quality."
  },
  {
    "start": 944.82,
    "end": 950.88,
    "text": "So it means that testing must go beyond those bugs to capture real world impacts."
  },
  {
    "start": 950.94,
    "end": 956.38,
    "text": "So that is, for instance, a good correlation with his work into testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 957.48,
    "end": 958.74,
    "text": "It shows some uncertainty."
  },
  {
    "start": 958.94,
    "end": 964.94,
    "text": "Of course, we can go with The Last Supper, other paintings, all those nice things."
  },
  {
    "start": 965.04,
    "end": 971.0,
    "text": "But when I see his paintings, I try to understand the philosophy behind it"
  },
  {
    "start": 970.82,
    "end": 976.04,
    "text": "and try to see if that art would be mixed with engineering."
  },
  {
    "start": 976.42,
    "end": 979.46,
    "text": "So in that we are dealing with people, stakeholders,"
  },
  {
    "start": 980.24,
    "end": 984.58,
    "text": "and people are looking for humanized data,"
  },
  {
    "start": 985.24,
    "end": 990.22,
    "text": "humanized reports, not fully engineered data."
  },
  {
    "start": 990.58,
    "end": 994.8,
    "text": "So if we just use our engineering part,"
  },
  {
    "start": 995.9,
    "end": 999.179,
    "text": "I don't feel that we can really convince people"
  },
  {
    "start": 999.18,
    "end": 1002.04,
    "text": "to have a great impact on people."
  },
  {
    "start": 1002.3,
    "end": 1004.28,
    "text": "So in order to influence people"
  },
  {
    "start": 1004.44,
    "end": 1008.42,
    "text": "and in order to be a real asset in the picture,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1009.14,
    "end": 1011.34,
    "text": "if you ask me, we need to blend it with art"
  },
  {
    "start": 1012.06,
    "end": 1016.78,
    "text": "so that show our curiosity,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1017.2,
    "end": 1020.26,
    "text": "show our exploration perspective,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1020.66,
    "end": 1024.92,
    "text": "show our empathy, especially how those people think."
  },
  {
    "start": 1025.22,
    "end": 1026.28,
    "text": "And this is my report."
  },
  {
    "start": 1026.5,
    "end": 1031.06,
    "text": "So how should I report it to the upper management, for instance?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1032.319,
    "end": 1034.18,
    "text": "Look at the performance testing report,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1035.26,
    "end": 1041.52,
    "text": "like 50 pages of metrics, just full of engineering stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 1041.91,
    "end": 1046.48,
    "text": "But how do you explain it to a non-technical person"
  },
  {
    "start": 1046.88,
    "end": 1050.66,
    "text": "is I think what real testing is, if you ask me."
  },
  {
    "start": 1051.38,
    "end": 1055.299,
    "text": "So that is where I need to use artful thinking"
  },
  {
    "start": 1055.5,
    "end": 1061.54,
    "text": "in order to make an art piece from a very purely engineered performance test report,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1062.16,
    "end": 1070.76,
    "text": "I need to make it fully humanized, fully more visual, more empathical, and everything should"
  },
  {
    "start": 1070.88,
    "end": 1078.78,
    "text": "be very attractive in that report, where people are convinced. So that is maybe a long answer,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1078.9,
    "end": 1079.5,
    "text": "but sorry."
  },
  {
    "start": 1079.98,
    "end": 1081.76,
    "text": "No, therefore we are here."
  },
  {
    "start": 1082.24,
    "end": 1087.0,
    "text": "So what comes to my mind is that there's a parallel."
  },
  {
    "start": 1087.16,
    "end": 1092.38,
    "text": "If we saw a picture of a drawing from an artist,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1093.76,
    "end": 1098.56,
    "text": "they always tell us a story, what we see in that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1099.06,
    "end": 1102.42,
    "text": "And I think that's true for testing too,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1102.54,
    "end": 1103.8,
    "text": "when I think about it,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1103.82,
    "end": 1108.58,
    "text": "that we are also a storyteller in that kind of way."
  },
  {
    "start": 1108.62,
    "end": 1111.66,
    "text": "And what you say is that we have to connect to the people"
  },
  {
    "start": 1111.88,
    "end": 1115.4,
    "text": "and show them the story they understand."
  },
  {
    "start": 1115.68,
    "end": 1115.78,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1117.68,
    "end": 1118.02,
    "text": "-For sure."
  },
  {
    "start": 1119.12,
    "end": 1123.72,
    "text": "And also, one of the learnings from him, for instance,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1123.94,
    "end": 1125.9,
    "text": "could be a very famous quote,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1126.18,
    "end": 1128.76,
    "text": "\"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 1129.32,
    "end": 1133.36,
    "text": "When I see this phrase, I remember good old days"
  },
  {
    "start": 1134.06,
    "end": 1136.08,
    "text": "where we are sophisticating everything,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1136.94,
    "end": 1139.42,
    "text": "just mess up with all the reports, am I right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1139.92,
    "end": 1143.28,
    "text": "Using lots of frameworks, lots of scripting,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1143.48,
    "end": 1145.88,
    "text": "lots of technical things, but in the end,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1146.1,
    "end": 1148.74,
    "text": "the happiness is not those."
  },
  {
    "start": 1149.24,
    "end": 1152.36,
    "text": "So the happiness comes from a simple report,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1152.64,
    "end": 1156.32,
    "text": "maybe one small excerpt from a report,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1157.18,
    "end": 1159.64,
    "text": "one finding that would make everyone happy,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1160.02,
    "end": 1162.04,
    "text": "but not 100 pages of those things."
  },
  {
    "start": 1162.62,
    "end": 1166.14,
    "text": "Maybe instead of creating 1000 scripts,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1166.94,
    "end": 1168.7,
    "text": "maybe 10 would be better,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1169.06,
    "end": 1172.02,
    "text": "or finding maybe five valuable bugs"
  },
  {
    "start": 1172.12,
    "end": 1176.2,
    "text": "is more valuable than having some flaky tests."
  },
  {
    "start": 1176.52,
    "end": 1181.1,
    "text": "So that is what, for instance, I use a lot in testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1181.24,
    "end": 1182.54,
    "text": "When I teach it to people,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1182.82,
    "end": 1186.56,
    "text": "when I advise people and do some recommendations,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1187.32,
    "end": 1189.36,
    "text": "I underline this fact, simplicity."
  },
  {
    "start": 1189.66,
    "end": 1191.4,
    "text": "So we need to make it simpler."
  },
  {
    "start": 1191.7,
    "end": 1194.72,
    "text": "We need to, but it is not an organic way."
  },
  {
    "start": 1195.1,
    "end": 1199.28,
    "text": "So normally none of the testing projects would be simple"
  },
  {
    "start": 1199.56,
    "end": 1202.54,
    "text": "if you really put an emphasis on that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1203.15,
    "end": 1206.12,
    "text": "You need to set it as a target, as a serious target,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1207.02,
    "end": 1207.98,
    "text": "then you may have it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1208.12,
    "end": 1213.34,
    "text": "But if you don't work for that, normally the organic way"
  },
  {
    "start": 1213.38,
    "end": 1216.42,
    "text": "is to have a sophisticated and the complex for the project."
  },
  {
    "start": 1216.44,
    "end": 1220.5,
    "text": "- Yeah, it gets complex or even every day from alone."
  },
  {
    "start": 1220.66,
    "end": 1222.96,
    "text": "So from all the impacts from our project,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1223.08,
    "end": 1225.54,
    "text": "from our methodology, from the tools, from AI,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1225.88,
    "end": 1228.84,
    "text": "and all this stuff, it gets complexer and complexer"
  },
  {
    "start": 1228.9,
    "end": 1229.38,
    "text": "every day."
  },
  {
    "start": 1230.22,
    "end": 1231.58,
    "text": "Yeah, perfect."
  },
  {
    "start": 1233.7,
    "end": 1239.78,
    "text": "Yeah, I like the idea to put more simplicity into it"
  },
  {
    "start": 1239.78,
    "end": 1244.18,
    "text": "and to make it as a goal to use simple language,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1244.56,
    "end": 1247.12,
    "text": "simple reports that everyone can understand."
  },
  {
    "start": 1248.86,
    "end": 1253.36,
    "text": "And again, one of his very nice quotes,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1254.2,
    "end": 1258.08,
    "text": "\"The noblest pleasure is the joy of understanding.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 1258.78,
    "end": 1260.54,
    "text": "But just tell me,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1261.6,
    "end": 1265.28,
    "text": "when you look at the testing processes and testers,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1268.38,
    "end": 1270.72,
    "text": "what percentage of those people"
  },
  {
    "start": 1270.86,
    "end": 1273.38,
    "text": "are defining test as an understanding?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1274.06,
    "end": 1277.28,
    "text": "Most people still define it as breaking the software,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1277.86,
    "end": 1279.98,
    "text": "finding the bugs and all other things."
  },
  {
    "start": 1280.48,
    "end": 1283.66,
    "text": "Yeah, but these are just materialistic things,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1283.76,
    "end": 1284.4,
    "text": "if you ask me."
  },
  {
    "start": 1286.48,
    "end": 1289.24,
    "text": "The most important definition for testing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1289.25,
    "end": 1293.32,
    "text": "if you ask me, is to have valuable information"
  },
  {
    "start": 1293.62,
    "end": 1295.14,
    "text": "around the product, am I right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1295.88,
    "end": 1298.32,
    "text": "To have a better understanding on a product."
  },
  {
    "start": 1298.9,
    "end": 1301.6,
    "text": "So in what status is that product?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1302.06,
    "end": 1304.6,
    "text": "What quality is that product?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1304.78,
    "end": 1307.179,
    "text": "So it's not breaking the software"
  },
  {
    "start": 1307.18,
    "end": 1309.9,
    "text": "or not just giving people bad news,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1310.1,
    "end": 1314.68,
    "text": "but it is understanding everything more."
  },
  {
    "start": 1314.73,
    "end": 1318.86,
    "text": "So it teaches us very valuable information."
  },
  {
    "start": 1319.2,
    "end": 1322.66,
    "text": "None of the people, just a very small minority of people"
  },
  {
    "start": 1322.98,
    "end": 1325.9,
    "text": "would be defining testing as an understanding,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1326.01,
    "end": 1326.66,
    "text": "if you ask me."
  },
  {
    "start": 1326.78,
    "end": 1329.82,
    "text": "So that is also one nice reflection"
  },
  {
    "start": 1330.08,
    "end": 1333.48,
    "text": "from Mr. Da Vinci into my life."
  },
  {
    "start": 1334.7,
    "end": 1336.6,
    "text": "to use it as a guidance."
  },
  {
    "start": 1337.0,
    "end": 1337.1,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1338.19,
    "end": 1343.7,
    "text": "You did also one similarity or parallel thing"
  },
  {
    "start": 1343.9,
    "end": 1346.34,
    "text": "and it was one word in your text."
  },
  {
    "start": 1346.53,
    "end": 1350.0,
    "text": "You sent me up front that I was waking up"
  },
  {
    "start": 1350.02,
    "end": 1353.06,
    "text": "and you wrote about imperfection."
  },
  {
    "start": 1354.36,
    "end": 1357.2,
    "text": "So that Da Vinci uses imperfection,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1357.28,
    "end": 1358.78,
    "text": "but what about the software quality?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1358.9,
    "end": 1360.48,
    "text": "What is your correlation here?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1363.94,
    "end": 1369.5,
    "text": "I think it will be going back to the first principle in ISTQB."
  },
  {
    "start": 1370.1,
    "end": 1380.94,
    "text": "So all the software in the world would be imperfect from a perspective, am I right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1381.12,
    "end": 1383.54,
    "text": "So we cannot make them perfect."
  },
  {
    "start": 1384.33,
    "end": 1391.66,
    "text": "So it's just this is the optimal product, is the wrong perspective."
  },
  {
    "start": 1391.94,
    "end": 1396.1,
    "text": "there would be no optimal products in the world."
  },
  {
    "start": 1396.3,
    "end": 1401.9,
    "text": "So I think the world itself doesn't allow this"
  },
  {
    "start": 1402.35,
    "end": 1406.78,
    "text": "to have the bug-free or optimum things."
  },
  {
    "start": 1407.74,
    "end": 1409.4,
    "text": "That will never happen in this world."
  },
  {
    "start": 1409.64,
    "end": 1412.98,
    "text": "Maybe in heaven, yes, but in this world, no way."
  },
  {
    "start": 1413.78,
    "end": 1418.739,
    "text": "So in that sense, I think originally world is imperfect"
  },
  {
    "start": 1420.22,
    "end": 1426.3,
    "text": "from many different angles, like the inequalities between people,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1426.88,
    "end": 1432.04,
    "text": "between regions, between seasons, between day and night."
  },
  {
    "start": 1433.12,
    "end": 1435.56,
    "text": "So, yeah, from a perspective it looks perfect,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1435.88,
    "end": 1439.48,
    "text": "but when you dive deep, there is an imperfection."
  },
  {
    "start": 1440.18,
    "end": 1442.76,
    "text": "So not everything is perfect."
  },
  {
    "start": 1443.52,
    "end": 1449.52,
    "text": "It's just trying to make everything perfect is a good reflection."
  },
  {
    "start": 1449.9,
    "end": 1458.08,
    "text": "but also knowing that in a way or so there are problems in the world"
  },
  {
    "start": 1458.3,
    "end": 1462.46,
    "text": "and they will still be there, all the problems."
  },
  {
    "start": 1462.94,
    "end": 1469.16,
    "text": "So I think as human beings, in the original sense,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1471.2,
    "end": 1475.0,
    "text": "why we have all those innovations, why we have all those products,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1475.0,
    "end": 1483.48,
    "text": "That's why we have all those product launches, nice things, nice processes and services coming"
  },
  {
    "start": 1483.6,
    "end": 1486.06,
    "text": "from many different... because that we have problems."
  },
  {
    "start": 1487.4,
    "end": 1489.84,
    "text": "So it just goes back to that imperfection."
  },
  {
    "start": 1491.1,
    "end": 1493.34,
    "text": "Basically problems in the world will never end."
  },
  {
    "start": 1493.96,
    "end": 1495.3,
    "text": "There will always be a problem."
  },
  {
    "start": 1495.42,
    "end": 1499.78,
    "text": "I think if the problems in the world will end, that will be the end of the world, if"
  },
  {
    "start": 1499.78,
    "end": 1500.24,
    "text": "you ask me."
  },
  {
    "start": 1500.76,
    "end": 1508.56,
    "text": "In our daily lives and in what we do, in whatever we do, there will be always problems."
  },
  {
    "start": 1509.32,
    "end": 1513.68,
    "text": "And it would make it an imperfect thing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1514.46,
    "end": 1519.08,
    "text": "So we need to live in that context."
  },
  {
    "start": 1519.26,
    "end": 1520.84,
    "text": "We need to adapt ourselves."
  },
  {
    "start": 1521.0,
    "end": 1527.98,
    "text": "All the nice things in life, I think they just come because of those problems."
  },
  {
    "start": 1527.98,
    "end": 1533.94,
    "text": "Even a very daily life thing that you use, a tool, a small tool in your house, in your"
  },
  {
    "start": 1534.1,
    "end": 1539.04,
    "text": "daily life, comes from the problem, am I right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1539.52,
    "end": 1545.66,
    "text": "So it's just because that some people look at a problem and try to find a solution to"
  },
  {
    "start": 1545.72,
    "end": 1546.26,
    "text": "that problem."
  },
  {
    "start": 1547.34,
    "end": 1550.22,
    "text": "And that is why we have that nice tool."
  },
  {
    "start": 1550.5,
    "end": 1556.12,
    "text": "So in the end, again, we need imperfection, if you ask me."
  },
  {
    "start": 1557.58,
    "end": 1563.82,
    "text": "If we reach perfection, I think that will be the end of the story."
  },
  {
    "start": 1564.44,
    "end": 1569.52,
    "text": "So why would I work then? Why would I be sleepless at night?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1570.32,
    "end": 1575.64,
    "text": "Or why should I try to read more if everything is perfect?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1575.86,
    "end": 1580.74,
    "text": "So that is, I think, the triggering point for each of us."
  },
  {
    "start": 1581.38,
    "end": 1584.84,
    "text": "Yeah, and I think we are, as humans,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1585.02,
    "end": 1586.8,
    "text": "are problem-solving machines"
  },
  {
    "start": 1587.4,
    "end": 1589.86,
    "text": "from the beginning of our existence."
  },
  {
    "start": 1590.64,
    "end": 1593.96,
    "text": "And as you said, what should we do"
  },
  {
    "start": 1594.1,
    "end": 1595.46,
    "text": "if everything is then perfect?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1595.68,
    "end": 1600.94,
    "text": "And I think the one part is that we accept this imperfection"
  },
  {
    "start": 1601.02,
    "end": 1606.48,
    "text": "because even the subject quality part"
  },
  {
    "start": 1606.56,
    "end": 1607.92,
    "text": "when I'm doing the testing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1608.02,
    "end": 1610.46,
    "text": "I want to go to more perfection"
  },
  {
    "start": 1610.46,
    "end": 1616.28,
    "text": "because I want to have great quality and pure, shiny, new interface and all this stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 1617.04,
    "end": 1622.16,
    "text": "But to get one step back and to look at it and to say, \"Okay, it's okay.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 1622.16,
    "end": 1626.8,
    "text": "And when it is enough, so I think that's a very interesting discussion"
  },
  {
    "start": 1627.56,
    "end": 1628.9,
    "text": "and reflection we have to do."
  },
  {
    "start": 1631.0,
    "end": 1631.28,
    "text": "Uli."
  },
  {
    "start": 1632.94,
    "end": 1636.4,
    "text": "So, from this perspective,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1637.38,
    "end": 1641.22,
    "text": "Testing is both an art and science."
  },
  {
    "start": 1642.94,
    "end": 1645.68,
    "text": "It's like balancing logic with intuition."
  },
  {
    "start": 1647.12,
    "end": 1648.92,
    "text": "If you ask my perspective."
  },
  {
    "start": 1650.32,
    "end": 1654.06,
    "text": "Yes, it's a very, very interesting thought construct."
  },
  {
    "start": 1654.18,
    "end": 1658.8,
    "text": "I like it so much because it's relating to our work so deeply"
  },
  {
    "start": 1659.08,
    "end": 1662.72,
    "text": "that we are, I think, on an intuitive way."
  },
  {
    "start": 1663.46,
    "end": 1666.58,
    "text": "Testers know that they have not just the logical skills"
  },
  {
    "start": 1666.66,
    "end": 1669.16,
    "text": "but also have the artists in there."
  },
  {
    "start": 1669.66,
    "end": 1674.6,
    "text": "But to make it clear and to make it consciousness for that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1674.66,
    "end": 1675.88,
    "text": "is so important."
  },
  {
    "start": 1676.06,
    "end": 1678.96,
    "text": "So I like very much this idea."
  },
  {
    "start": 1680.26,
    "end": 1683.4,
    "text": "Yes, Baris, thank you very much to be here on the show"
  },
  {
    "start": 1683.56,
    "end": 1688.1,
    "text": "and that you get us into this Da Vinci exploration."
  },
  {
    "start": 1688.36,
    "end": 1690.0,
    "text": "It was very interesting for me."
  },
  {
    "start": 1690.16,
    "end": 1693.86,
    "text": "And I take away a lot of insights for me now"
  },
  {
    "start": 1693.86,
    "end": 1696.9,
    "text": "and to reflect on myself, on my work now."
  },
  {
    "start": 1698.62,
    "end": 1702.04,
    "text": "So thank you that you were here and did share that with us."
  },
  {
    "start": 1702.16,
    "end": 1704.64,
    "text": "And I think it was not the last time"
  },
  {
    "start": 1704.72,
    "end": 1705.94,
    "text": "that you will be here on the podcast."
  },
  {
    "start": 1706.14,
    "end": 1707.34,
    "text": "I can imagine that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1708.16,
    "end": 1708.54,
    "text": "- Why not?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1709.04,
    "end": 1709.28,
    "text": "- Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1709.66,
    "end": 1713.88,
    "text": "- I'm open to discuss with a person like you"
  },
  {
    "start": 1714.16,
    "end": 1718.28,
    "text": "and you made many very nice contributions to the field."
  },
  {
    "start": 1718.4,
    "end": 1721.9,
    "text": "I think we all work for the betterment for software testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1721.98,
    "end": 1733.56,
    "text": "more modernity and more elegance in testing to empower testers in teams and in their communication"
  },
  {
    "start": 1733.76,
    "end": 1741.9,
    "text": "in what they do. So thank you so much. Yeah, thank you too. Let's meet again. Sure. Have"
  },
  {
    "start": 1741.9,
    "end": 1744.12,
    "text": "a great week and see you soon. Bye bye."
  }
]