[
  {
    "start": 0.001,
    "end": 4.32,
    "text": "Uh I know that test pyramid is always somewhere."
  },
  {
    "start": 4.32,
    "end": 10.88,
    "text": "Uh I'm not sure whether the amount of the test should be exactly like pyramid."
  },
  {
    "start": 11.86,
    "end": 23.86,
    "text": "I have a young uh lady who is very eager to do inclined playwright testing and her you know love is that let's do full end-to-end automation because end-to-end automation is a king"
  },
  {
    "start": 25.08,
    "end": 32.2,
    "text": "Improving is not like giving you know golden card to AWS, give me more resources"
  },
  {
    "start": 32.32,
    "end": 36.72,
    "text": "But this is the hard way, this is engineering way."
  },
  {
    "start": 36.72,
    "end": 40.72,
    "text": "My vision of being testers a tester is uh"
  },
  {
    "start": 41.22,
    "end": 44.66,
    "text": "First of all, to being engineered."
  },
  {
    "start": 44.66,
    "end": 47.3,
    "text": "Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed."
  },
  {
    "start": 47.3,
    "end": 53.62,
    "text": "My name is Richie and I'm happy to share another episode from the TestCon 5 conference from Mauritius."
  },
  {
    "start": 53.62,
    "end": 55.86,
    "text": "My guest today was Sebastian Malyska."
  },
  {
    "start": 56.3,
    "end": 57.66,
    "text": "Short Seba."
  },
  {
    "start": 57.66,
    "end": 70.78,
    "text": "We talked about APIs and why testers should look behind the front end, what the top five API protocols are and how they differ, how MCP connects AI agents with real systems and why good APIs."
  },
  {
    "start": 71.06,
    "end": 74.1,
    "text": "Eye design saves you tokens and money."
  },
  {
    "start": 74.1,
    "end": 85.78,
    "text": "Enjoy the episode."
  },
  {
    "start": 86.88,
    "end": 89.6,
    "text": "Hi Seba, great to have you on the show here."
  },
  {
    "start": 89.6,
    "end": 90.479,
    "text": "Thank you, Jones."
  },
  {
    "start": 90.64,
    "end": 91.84,
    "text": "Great to having me."
  },
  {
    "start": 92.159,
    "end": 93.84,
    "text": "Should I look on camera or look on camera?"
  },
  {
    "start": 94.0,
    "end": 95.2,
    "text": "No, you you can look to me."
  },
  {
    "start": 97.119,
    "end": 99.92,
    "text": "But there is nobody, nobody here, so we can just"
  },
  {
    "start": 101.56,
    "end": 105.16,
    "text": "We are here on Mauritius at the testcon conference."
  },
  {
    "start": 105.56,
    "end": 109.0,
    "text": "Very active community here for software quality and testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 109.0,
    "end": 109.8,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 110.52,
    "end": 113.24,
    "text": "It's my third time here."
  },
  {
    "start": 113.14,
    "end": 119.22,
    "text": "I remember first time again how much how much time we have?"
  },
  {
    "start": 119.62,
    "end": 121.54,
    "text": "Honestly, because this is really nice"
  },
  {
    "start": 121.439,
    "end": 130.56,
    "text": "story like uh when I met Loveless then he mentioned there is some kind of that kind of place that uh there is an interesting community and uh he would like"
  },
  {
    "start": 130.66,
    "end": 142.58,
    "text": "to you know you know give some knowledge share share with this community you know show them you know people outside of the you know island uh um and"
  },
  {
    "start": 143.32,
    "end": 153.4,
    "text": "In that moment we was freshly, I guess freshly elected uh exec, and we're looking some kind of ideas how we can you know give something to the community."
  },
  {
    "start": 153.74,
    "end": 166.7,
    "text": "Uh and there was idea like uh there is some places where you know there are people willing to you know learn something or meet somebody but the traveling there it's cost so much"
  },
  {
    "start": 167.02,
    "end": 172.54,
    "text": "that the the local community never will be afforded to invite anybody."
  },
  {
    "start": 172.54,
    "end": 181.66,
    "text": "Well if we're talking about really big stars then for example maybe one if they're the the dedicated you know sponsor about that."
  },
  {
    "start": 181.66,
    "end": 187.5,
    "text": "But definitely forget about you know two, three, five people and still this is you know a big challenge."
  },
  {
    "start": 188.22,
    "end": 191.98,
    "text": "So we start thinking on the exact how we can solve with that kind of situation"
  },
  {
    "start": 191.9,
    "end": 195.579,
    "text": "And there is a pop-up idea like ISTQB conference."
  },
  {
    "start": 195.659,
    "end": 201.42,
    "text": "And those ISTQB conference, it was exactly like we figured out, okay."
  },
  {
    "start": 202.14,
    "end": 212.62,
    "text": "We still have some money and we definitely feel ourselves like we should give back, you know, something to different communities."
  },
  {
    "start": 212.42,
    "end": 221.54,
    "text": "Uh definitely there will be there we already know, not on because this is not only lovers case, we already know."
  },
  {
    "start": 220.98,
    "end": 230.18,
    "text": "there are community that is willing to you know to to have that kind of speakers but they never will be affordable yeah so figure out okay"
  },
  {
    "start": 230.24,
    "end": 242.16,
    "text": "We know how to organize events because usually each of us in ISTQB is active outside of the you know being ISTQB and organizing or used to organizing or about organizing some kind of events."
  },
  {
    "start": 242.16,
    "end": 244.96,
    "text": "So we have knowledge uh know-how."
  },
  {
    "start": 244.56,
    "end": 246.879,
    "text": "and we have you know some money."
  },
  {
    "start": 246.879,
    "end": 257.519,
    "text": "We can also travel there and try to organize some kind of dedicated uh meetings, uh some other activities that will be you know win-win solution"
  },
  {
    "start": 257.2,
    "end": 261.76,
    "text": "That's why the idea of the ISTQB will pop up and we said, okay, let's try."
  },
  {
    "start": 261.76,
    "end": 267.2,
    "text": "And the Mauritius was the first pickup country like evaluation."
  },
  {
    "start": 267.199,
    "end": 274.0,
    "text": "And I remember still like uh we came here and the first event was in the Cyber City."
  },
  {
    "start": 274.24,
    "end": 281.759,
    "text": "Then I learned that there's something like Cyber City and let's imagine you know European that never was in the Mauritius traveling here."
  },
  {
    "start": 281.539,
    "end": 288.34,
    "text": "and take me to the cyber city and you know the first ideas how it might look like it so you know"
  },
  {
    "start": 289.24,
    "end": 293.0,
    "text": "When you heard about Dubai, you can expect anything."
  },
  {
    "start": 293.56,
    "end": 299.0,
    "text": "And indeed the the this is the region, I don't know, city or or or the region."
  },
  {
    "start": 299.0,
    "end": 300.28,
    "text": "It looks like you know"
  },
  {
    "start": 300.86,
    "end": 305.34,
    "text": "Very high building, you know, a lot of people you know just uh walking there."
  },
  {
    "start": 305.34,
    "end": 308.46,
    "text": "This is not a living area, this is rather walking area."
  },
  {
    "start": 308.86,
    "end": 310.539,
    "text": "And there was the conference."
  },
  {
    "start": 310.539,
    "end": 313.099,
    "text": "I guess as if I remember two tracks"
  },
  {
    "start": 313.199,
    "end": 317.759,
    "text": "Parallel with the conference we organize some kind of meetings, different working groups."
  },
  {
    "start": 317.759,
    "end": 321.199,
    "text": "So they have not only money, but they also have speakers."
  },
  {
    "start": 321.199,
    "end": 324.08,
    "text": "Of course they're willing to pick up who would like to speak."
  },
  {
    "start": 324.62,
    "end": 327.9,
    "text": "uh and uh it was uh huge success."
  },
  {
    "start": 328.86,
    "end": 332.699,
    "text": "But what struck me this is not immediate success."
  },
  {
    "start": 332.699,
    "end": 339.259,
    "text": "So okay, being there and talking with people it was one aspect and it was a really great aspect."
  },
  {
    "start": 340.22,
    "end": 350.3,
    "text": "Also there was cases like for example when we had there Olivier was invited some kind of interview in the national television."
  },
  {
    "start": 350.66,
    "end": 359.22,
    "text": "So then then for example they they learn uh about that there's that kind of events happening and unfortunately Oliver can speak French."
  },
  {
    "start": 359.0,
    "end": 360.68,
    "text": "Here it's important."
  },
  {
    "start": 360.68,
    "end": 367.4,
    "text": "So he could go to mass media and talk a little bit about a profession about ISTQB."
  },
  {
    "start": 367.86,
    "end": 379.139,
    "text": "And again, it sounds like you know really good event, uh, you know, a lot of people, uh you know, PR for you know branding, everything built."
  },
  {
    "start": 379.32,
    "end": 384.76,
    "text": "And we still feel that okay this is a good idea, good project, we should continue."
  },
  {
    "start": 384.76,
    "end": 392.12,
    "text": "And after that, you know, a year or two years later, we start seeing the benefits from that kind of event."
  },
  {
    "start": 391.74,
    "end": 403.5,
    "text": "because as Lawler said in the local community, like some doors was already closed to them, even that they was in the time to organize that kind of event"
  },
  {
    "start": 403.44,
    "end": 411.28,
    "text": "This pro that the source closed after this event, after this interview, after that we have you know a few meetings with different companies"
  },
  {
    "start": 411.139,
    "end": 417.86,
    "text": "Well by the way I find the company which is located either here in India in Poland, which is also was surprised to me."
  },
  {
    "start": 418.1,
    "end": 424.58,
    "text": "So after that uh he come back to us and say okay now those doors are open and even inviting them"
  },
  {
    "start": 424.66,
    "end": 438.42,
    "text": "and calling them let's uh you know have a meeting so that uh I I call it always you know butterfly effect like this is a really small thing and uh we can organize and nobody could know except of course ISTQB"
  },
  {
    "start": 438.78,
    "end": 441.259,
    "text": "But it did the job."
  },
  {
    "start": 441.259,
    "end": 448.3,
    "text": "And I think it's often overseen that uh ISTQB is not just a bunch of people who are doing their syllabus but also trying to"
  },
  {
    "start": 448.42,
    "end": 458.66,
    "text": "to give something back to the community, especially to as you said, communities who are not able to travel everywhere and and and doing conference attendees and all over the world."
  },
  {
    "start": 458.66,
    "end": 459.54,
    "text": "So bring the"
  },
  {
    "start": 459.74,
    "end": 463.02,
    "text": "knowledge here to the local communities and very great area."
  },
  {
    "start": 463.26,
    "end": 468.38,
    "text": "In Africa region and we how how long we are nine hours in flight from Europe"
  },
  {
    "start": 468.56,
    "end": 471.12,
    "text": "This is very far, you know, travel."
  },
  {
    "start": 471.12,
    "end": 476.8,
    "text": "So this community, the same Indonesia community, uh I still remember going to Bali."
  },
  {
    "start": 477.04,
    "end": 479.199,
    "text": "I know that they struggling to organize something."
  },
  {
    "start": 479.199,
    "end": 482.0,
    "text": "In this year, for example, they organized something online"
  },
  {
    "start": 482.16,
    "end": 482.48,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 482.48,
    "end": 484.96,
    "text": "I'm in contact with Krebby and board."
  },
  {
    "start": 484.96,
    "end": 488.4,
    "text": "They also thinking by many, many years they thinking about organizing."
  },
  {
    "start": 490.36,
    "end": 491.56,
    "text": "for them is a big challenge."
  },
  {
    "start": 491.56,
    "end": 498.52,
    "text": "You know, there's few, you know, Iceland located and they need to travel, which is traveling between them is a challenge."
  },
  {
    "start": 498.52,
    "end": 501.08,
    "text": "And now inviting also speakers, you know"
  },
  {
    "start": 501.06,
    "end": 508.58,
    "text": "For us it's loud it's you know for us this is like heaven like you know this is the location that we traveling to you know to for vacation."
  },
  {
    "start": 508.58,
    "end": 509.139,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 509.139,
    "end": 510.1,
    "text": "But for them"
  },
  {
    "start": 510.34,
    "end": 512.099,
    "text": "This is totally different perspective."
  },
  {
    "start": 512.34,
    "end": 513.46,
    "text": "Yeah, that's true, yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 513.46,
    "end": 517.86,
    "text": "Yeah, thank you for this for this uh side view uh on the on on the ice"
  },
  {
    "start": 518.039,
    "end": 526.04,
    "text": "the community community uh i see go be community work i think it's very interesting but uh you especially have today a talk about api testing"
  },
  {
    "start": 526.42,
    "end": 534.5,
    "text": "Uh and uh I read your abstract and uh uh when when I think often uh when testers say oh we have to test the API."
  },
  {
    "start": 534.44,
    "end": 539.32,
    "text": "uh API is such a general word not knowing what is behind that."
  },
  {
    "start": 539.32,
    "end": 545.88,
    "text": "And in your uh in your abstract I read uh from the big five uh uh types of of APIs and so"
  },
  {
    "start": 545.86,
    "end": 548.26,
    "text": "And uh there I wanna take a look into it."
  },
  {
    "start": 548.26,
    "end": 556.34,
    "text": "Uh what's what's the difference and why do we have to know that uh there is a difference in the architecture and the technology behind it."
  },
  {
    "start": 556.22,
    "end": 564.94,
    "text": "Yeah so so at first I was looking idea for you know abstract for you know talk"
  },
  {
    "start": 566.26,
    "end": 574.1,
    "text": "I used to talking about very abstractive things and now I have ambition to talk about very technical stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 574.14,
    "end": 583.58,
    "text": "So my friend David, you know, say hello David, inspired me to buy his talk"
  },
  {
    "start": 583.36,
    "end": 591.36,
    "text": "uh because he used to have a talk that he going from protocol to protocol and discussing about his personal experience about testing this"
  },
  {
    "start": 591.76,
    "end": 603.76,
    "text": "So I inspired with this and start look at his, check his resources, update it and start talking about also protocols."
  },
  {
    "start": 603.7,
    "end": 611.06,
    "text": "Um and uh then AI was in introduced to my big picture."
  },
  {
    "start": 611.06,
    "end": 616.339,
    "text": "So we are much far from the perspective like uh we still have"
  },
  {
    "start": 616.259,
    "end": 623.54,
    "text": "But yeah, but coming back to your question to so my talk starting with the analyzing of uh report"
  },
  {
    "start": 624.2,
    "end": 633.72,
    "text": "This is report done by the postman, so we all know the tool and does company and they definitely doing a lot of analysis."
  },
  {
    "start": 634.16,
    "end": 642.48,
    "text": "how much is being an API interface used, you know, uh how many you know teams investing, whether this is the interface that"
  },
  {
    "start": 642.74,
    "end": 654.1,
    "text": "can be used to you know to monetize the product or whether this is simple you know back end for some kind of front end application so they're doing deeply knowledge and what i like a lot in this report"
  },
  {
    "start": 654.38,
    "end": 659.9,
    "text": "uh a lot of company as far as I remember it was 30,000 companies, something like this."
  },
  {
    "start": 659.9,
    "end": 661.5,
    "text": "So huge number."
  },
  {
    "start": 661.82,
    "end": 664.62,
    "text": "So I still think this is kind of representative."
  },
  {
    "start": 664.94,
    "end": 667.18,
    "text": "And if you compare year to year"
  },
  {
    "start": 667.14,
    "end": 670.34,
    "text": "The rest protocol, it's still in the king."
  },
  {
    "start": 670.34,
    "end": 671.62,
    "text": "It's on the top."
  },
  {
    "start": 671.62,
    "end": 674.5,
    "text": "And the second is I guess uh"
  },
  {
    "start": 675.4,
    "end": 683.24,
    "text": "Web hooks, maybe I I start, you know, thinking uh what what definitely what was changed"
  },
  {
    "start": 683.9,
    "end": 690.22,
    "text": "So ah so we change 2024 there was graph QL as in the second position."
  },
  {
    "start": 690.22,
    "end": 692.3,
    "text": "Now it's go going down."
  },
  {
    "start": 692.36,
    "end": 695.4,
    "text": "We don't have still a report for 2026."
  },
  {
    "start": 695.4,
    "end": 699.08,
    "text": "So you're talking about the data from report 2025."
  },
  {
    "start": 699.08,
    "end": 702.92,
    "text": "So this is going down and I guess webhooks going up"
  },
  {
    "start": 704.2,
    "end": 713.24,
    "text": "But you we can say that more or less we have you know the same you know top you know five or protocols like uh REST like uh"
  },
  {
    "start": 713.56,
    "end": 720.52,
    "text": "And so like GraphQL, webhooks and that's that kind of you know stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 723.96,
    "end": 724.92,
    "text": "There's a lot of stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 724.92,
    "end": 727.64,
    "text": "So my intention at the very beginning was just to"
  },
  {
    "start": 728.2,
    "end": 733.32,
    "text": "Remind testers, like uh because we all love you know clicking."
  },
  {
    "start": 733.32,
    "end": 734.92,
    "text": "We all love front end."
  },
  {
    "start": 734.92,
    "end": 739.8,
    "text": "We have huge hype about you know whether Cypress of playwright is better."
  },
  {
    "start": 739.3,
    "end": 744.5,
    "text": "or maybe Selenium there will be next version, next generation, you know, all that fight."
  },
  {
    "start": 744.5,
    "end": 752.18,
    "text": "Even uh on a yesterday conference there was talk, uh Lilia talk about that uh the"
  },
  {
    "start": 752.759,
    "end": 756.36,
    "text": "She has thousand to thousand you know front end tests."
  },
  {
    "start": 757.319,
    "end": 760.199,
    "text": "By my heart, I'm back-enders."
  },
  {
    "start": 760.199,
    "end": 766.04,
    "text": "And if I need to you know do any front-end test, I always going to down, down, down"
  },
  {
    "start": 766.899,
    "end": 769.54,
    "text": "This comes from the experience in my life."
  },
  {
    "start": 769.54,
    "end": 779.38,
    "text": "Like usually the front end we used to have Flicky and backend there was the real you can run and this was giving you the more predictive you know output."
  },
  {
    "start": 779.38,
    "end": 780.339,
    "text": "Not always"
  },
  {
    "start": 780.32,
    "end": 784.4,
    "text": "ideal but more predictive and definitely quicker one."
  },
  {
    "start": 784.4,
    "end": 785.04,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 785.2,
    "end": 787.28,
    "text": "So so always was the beginning ears."
  },
  {
    "start": 787.28,
    "end": 791.04,
    "text": "And the concept was that I would like to just remind the testers like"
  },
  {
    "start": 791.42,
    "end": 801.5,
    "text": "Don't do on the hype, but try to understand what is happening behind the scene, what kind of protocols, how they even talk to each other."
  },
  {
    "start": 801.52,
    "end": 815.92,
    "text": "uh also try to explain and uh show the difference like rest it's not the you know protocol itself it's kind of you know recommendation so if somebody figure out like let's uh use get to remove some object"
  },
  {
    "start": 815.94,
    "end": 817.46,
    "text": "Don't kill this person."
  },
  {
    "start": 818.18,
    "end": 824.74,
    "text": "Probably this there was reason and this is allowed because again this is not you know not protocol"
  },
  {
    "start": 824.86,
    "end": 836.86,
    "text": "versus you know SOAP which is you know very standardized protocol where we have something which is uh related with the you know usd money third party you know integration where you need to be exact"
  },
  {
    "start": 837.1,
    "end": 843.18,
    "text": "about the m uh about the amount, about the time, all those stuff is you know pre-validated."
  },
  {
    "start": 843.18,
    "end": 844.22,
    "text": "And so on and so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 844.22,
    "end": 846.94,
    "text": "So this idea was just to show people"
  },
  {
    "start": 847.5,
    "end": 857.819,
    "text": "like uh who probably never s have opportunity to see how looks the very simple flow like like uh for example for us you get and the response"
  },
  {
    "start": 857.86,
    "end": 864.66,
    "text": "for you know so let us you're sending you know uh post in S200 and some magic is happening."
  },
  {
    "start": 864.66,
    "end": 869.86,
    "text": "Explain why a graph QL is so important like so for example you can send a request"
  },
  {
    "start": 869.74,
    "end": 877.34,
    "text": "uh about certain uh you know data and you can in the request define what exactly data you are looking for."
  },
  {
    "start": 877.66,
    "end": 881.1,
    "text": "Or for example you don't need to fetch everything."
  },
  {
    "start": 881.1,
    "end": 882.14,
    "text": "This was the the"
  },
  {
    "start": 882.54,
    "end": 895.98,
    "text": "The main reason why GraphQL was introduced, like we don't want to, you know, client just collecting all object A, all object B and object C and doing some kind of you know matching on the client side, but just send one request"
  },
  {
    "start": 895.66,
    "end": 901.5,
    "text": "and say that from this and this this I would like to this particular information and just give me the report."
  },
  {
    "start": 901.74,
    "end": 905.1,
    "text": "And this was you know the the idea of GraphQL"
  },
  {
    "start": 905.16,
    "end": 906.28,
    "text": "So and so on so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 906.28,
    "end": 914.04,
    "text": "So I want to very quickly one slide I will be showing you know exact uh flow, how it looks like and explaining"
  },
  {
    "start": 914.32,
    "end": 917.76,
    "text": "But then again, agentic AI started."
  },
  {
    "start": 917.76,
    "end": 925.52,
    "text": "We already heard many talks here about AI, about AI itself, about agentic solution."
  },
  {
    "start": 925.52,
    "end": 926.8,
    "text": "So again"
  },
  {
    "start": 928.22,
    "end": 934.7,
    "text": "My vision of being testers a tester is uh first of all to being engineer."
  },
  {
    "start": 934.7,
    "end": 937.1,
    "text": "So I cannot imagine that tests"
  },
  {
    "start": 937.339,
    "end": 940.459,
    "text": "say something without understanding how it's working."
  },
  {
    "start": 940.779,
    "end": 947.18,
    "text": "And even that we might you know love that we have in our chat window we can chat with something some"
  },
  {
    "start": 947.92,
    "end": 962.319,
    "text": "thing which is responding to us and for example ask those uh identity to you know create Jira, you know, move Jira, you know, analyze me these requirements, prepare me automated, you know, scenario for that."
  },
  {
    "start": 962.06,
    "end": 968.7,
    "text": "It's everything fine, but I was wondering how it's happening and what is the limitation."
  },
  {
    "start": 968.7,
    "end": 972.06,
    "text": "And I always when I playing with Chat GPT"
  },
  {
    "start": 972.66,
    "end": 985.22,
    "text": "I saw that you know if you asking about uh some some kind of action that he not giving you the answer but you see that he generate Python script doing some kind of analysis and giving you back"
  },
  {
    "start": 985.779,
    "end": 1000.1,
    "text": "Now we have MCP, so it's changed a lot and it is a game changer, so this is yet another thing that I would like to explain that MCP uh give the real data which those AI needed."
  },
  {
    "start": 999.839,
    "end": 1004.319,
    "text": "to stop hallucinating and then we work on something which is valid."
  },
  {
    "start": 1004.319,
    "end": 1011.44,
    "text": "And then also you realize that there are new protocols and they communicate in a slightly different way."
  },
  {
    "start": 1011.259,
    "end": 1015.579,
    "text": "But still they built on the top of the, you know, the protocols that we already know."
  },
  {
    "start": 1015.899,
    "end": 1019.819,
    "text": "So JRPC is used, you know, by default."
  },
  {
    "start": 1019.759,
    "end": 1023.36,
    "text": "and then can be used by the different level of transportation."
  },
  {
    "start": 1023.36,
    "end": 1027.439,
    "text": "And we, if we're looking, you know, from high level perspective."
  },
  {
    "start": 1027.76,
    "end": 1041.12,
    "text": "when you google mcp you you immediately you get information like mcp server is is like usb for computer i hate those analogy because when i look look at this and it was"
  },
  {
    "start": 1041.579,
    "end": 1042.939,
    "text": "Didn't catch at all."
  },
  {
    "start": 1042.939,
    "end": 1043.9,
    "text": "What do you mean?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1043.9,
    "end": 1045.74,
    "text": "USB C port to computer?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1045.74,
    "end": 1046.62,
    "text": "What do you mean?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1047.1,
    "end": 1050.78,
    "text": "For me, this is uh I would like rather say that um"
  },
  {
    "start": 1051.32,
    "end": 1062.52,
    "text": "MCP is like uh any external devices because the the even that we have very clever box those clever box still will be closed inside of the box"
  },
  {
    "start": 1062.46,
    "end": 1067.74,
    "text": "And if we would like to do something, we need some kind of you know interaction with the real systems."
  },
  {
    "start": 1067.74,
    "end": 1074.78,
    "text": "And funny is that that if we have those interactions, those interactions still will be made on the odd protocols"
  },
  {
    "start": 1074.74,
    "end": 1088.58,
    "text": "So we need to you know build something in the middle, kind of proxy, which will be now understand you know communication on the one side with LLM on the other will be talking with you know with the classical classic protocols"
  },
  {
    "start": 1088.6,
    "end": 1102.519,
    "text": "So I will start doing you know research how it's happening, you know, how AI knows, like uh what to call it, you know, there must be something, you know, some some exchange because"
  },
  {
    "start": 1102.64,
    "end": 1116.0,
    "text": "in the you know in the media you see oh they automatically detected agent and you know then automatically LLM now that this agent is called uh I don't know you know Richard"
  },
  {
    "start": 1116.54,
    "end": 1124.46,
    "text": "Two and he can do you know uh generate uh I don't know ticket or send you for a vacation or one."
  },
  {
    "start": 1124.46,
    "end": 1128.22,
    "text": "Yeah that it's you know on abstract level and for engineers"
  },
  {
    "start": 1128.34,
    "end": 1128.82,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1129.299,
    "end": 1131.299,
    "text": "We know that we both know there is no magic."
  },
  {
    "start": 1131.299,
    "end": 1133.86,
    "text": "There needs to be something which is happening."
  },
  {
    "start": 1133.86,
    "end": 1137.14,
    "text": "And this is m yeah, I would like to explain in my talk, like"
  },
  {
    "start": 1137.34,
    "end": 1145.419,
    "text": "There's a dedicated protocol which has dedicated, you know, requests, and one of the requests is for example, you know"
  },
  {
    "start": 1145.54,
    "end": 1148.58,
    "text": "Tell me what kind of you know resources you have."
  },
  {
    "start": 1148.58,
    "end": 1150.82,
    "text": "Tell me what kind of tools you have."
  },
  {
    "start": 1150.82,
    "end": 1154.98,
    "text": "So in fact, uh when LLM started talking with MCP"
  },
  {
    "start": 1155.06,
    "end": 1161.78,
    "text": "The MCP sent all the information about himself to LLM and LLM just needs to remember about this."
  },
  {
    "start": 1162.02,
    "end": 1164.74,
    "text": "And don't need to remember everything because they"
  },
  {
    "start": 1165.14,
    "end": 1177.94,
    "text": "can send only you know let's say some let's say abstract of information and then still LLM has the then typical request like okay tell me more about this"
  },
  {
    "start": 1178.24,
    "end": 1182.72,
    "text": "Tell me for example what kind of data, what kind of type of data you're expecting."
  },
  {
    "start": 1182.88,
    "end": 1185.36,
    "text": "So so this was okay."
  },
  {
    "start": 1185.36,
    "end": 1187.2,
    "text": "Now I understand how it's working."
  },
  {
    "start": 1189.52,
    "end": 1191.76,
    "text": "Again, topic is very huge"
  },
  {
    "start": 1191.76,
    "end": 1199.36,
    "text": "And why do you think is uh what is in your opinion uh as as a tester wh why should I I really"
  },
  {
    "start": 1199.84,
    "end": 1206.24,
    "text": "take care of it which uh which um interfaces and apis are used in there."
  },
  {
    "start": 1206.24,
    "end": 1208.72,
    "text": "What why is that why is that so important for me"
  },
  {
    "start": 1210.72,
    "end": 1216.0,
    "text": "Well, again, uh I started because I have mindset, you know."
  },
  {
    "start": 1216.08,
    "end": 1218.48,
    "text": "Yeah, I'm not normal person."
  },
  {
    "start": 1218.639,
    "end": 1222.72,
    "text": "I need to understand, I need to break it, yeah, see how it's working and then you know"
  },
  {
    "start": 1222.48,
    "end": 1222.72,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1222.88,
    "end": 1228.64,
    "text": "But um but in fact the report that I will be talking about give me the answer for that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1228.64,
    "end": 1233.36,
    "text": "Uh and this report report showing like uh first of all it's showing like uh"
  },
  {
    "start": 1233.82,
    "end": 1245.82,
    "text": "uh in order to build product which can be you know successfully shipped and start do you know bringing revenue you don't need to have for example front end yeah uh"
  },
  {
    "start": 1246.04,
    "end": 1249.16,
    "text": "For me that was something new that I didn't expect."
  },
  {
    "start": 1249.16,
    "end": 1255.88,
    "text": "I was rather, you know, uh narrow-minded, like okay, back and front and there needs to be some kind of application, then might be an old"
  },
  {
    "start": 1255.86,
    "end": 1262.26,
    "text": "Microservice is behind, but still needs to be some kind of you know website where that you start dealing with."
  },
  {
    "start": 1262.26,
    "end": 1265.22,
    "text": "Of course you need to log in and do some actions"
  },
  {
    "start": 1265.44,
    "end": 1274.0,
    "text": "And this report showed that uh this is not true, that uh more and more companies just delivering you know backend"
  },
  {
    "start": 1274.22,
    "end": 1285.02,
    "text": "paid API and you buying subscription for API and can you you know do whatever you they deliver and having few of that you can build some kind of you know network"
  },
  {
    "start": 1285.06,
    "end": 1297.94,
    "text": "And then for example you can deliver, you know, servers less solution which is using, you know, three different paid API and giving some other different value because they've already collected or pre-processed something and deliver it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1298.26,
    "end": 1299.78,
    "text": "This was one thing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1299.919,
    "end": 1310.88,
    "text": "And the other thing, when we start talking about the MCP, also this report show that even the developers know what is MCP, even they"
  },
  {
    "start": 1311.32,
    "end": 1317.64,
    "text": "using this and we know that testers also using the agentic systems and you know believe that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1318.04,
    "end": 1323.88,
    "text": "Fun fact is that very few organizations designing API"
  },
  {
    "start": 1324.5,
    "end": 1331.46,
    "text": "In terms of the optimalization of for used by agents or used by API only"
  },
  {
    "start": 1331.679,
    "end": 1341.44,
    "text": "This is still kind of mindset like we have some kind of you know business idea, we cut those business ideas some kind of domain, subdomain, and stuff like this."
  },
  {
    "start": 1341.24,
    "end": 1343.48,
    "text": "And this will be implemented in the code."
  },
  {
    "start": 1344.04,
    "end": 1348.6,
    "text": "Effect is that uh maybe this is uh logically for human."
  },
  {
    "start": 1348.6,
    "end": 1348.92,
    "text": "It's"
  },
  {
    "start": 1349.32,
    "end": 1360.44,
    "text": "fine because there's you know I don't know order under order you have you know I don't know some kind of uh invoice blah blah blah there's some kind of you know logical path like you're building in in the UV"
  },
  {
    "start": 1360.82,
    "end": 1363.94,
    "text": "But uh for agent it it hasn't been like that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1364.18,
    "end": 1368.9,
    "text": "And and this was you know kind of big surprise like oh so we"
  },
  {
    "start": 1369.88,
    "end": 1382.52,
    "text": "can do you know optimalization even on architectural level if we understood what kind of you know clients we have and this is not new knowledge for testers"
  },
  {
    "start": 1382.74,
    "end": 1386.66,
    "text": "We always knew that first of all we need to identify our stakeholders."
  },
  {
    "start": 1386.9,
    "end": 1388.18,
    "text": "We need to talk with them."
  },
  {
    "start": 1388.18,
    "end": 1391.38,
    "text": "We need to understand what's mean good quality for them."
  },
  {
    "start": 1391.38,
    "end": 1391.7,
    "text": "But"
  },
  {
    "start": 1392.22,
    "end": 1403.66,
    "text": "If we're looking at that, again from engineering perspective, nobody is asking AI whether they you know would like to have five requests to get some or one."
  },
  {
    "start": 1404.06,
    "end": 1410.46,
    "text": "Okay, I'm simplifying, but on the end of the day in the in a budget you will see how many tokens has been used."
  },
  {
    "start": 1410.62,
    "end": 1416.38,
    "text": "And if you have API you know optimized for you know cooperation with agent probably there will be less."
  },
  {
    "start": 1417.019,
    "end": 1427.58,
    "text": "And we dealing, we all dealing, not on the IT, with the problem like not enough you know power, not uh not enough you know tokens, you know the subscriptions"
  },
  {
    "start": 1427.82,
    "end": 1430.46,
    "text": "going up and probably will be going up."
  },
  {
    "start": 1430.86,
    "end": 1433.5,
    "text": "The models are bigger, so the context is bigger."
  },
  {
    "start": 1433.5,
    "end": 1437.18,
    "text": "So we can you know put more data in the context."
  },
  {
    "start": 1436.72,
    "end": 1442.08,
    "text": "And this is not like we would like to have, you know, give me this, this, this, this and then generate."
  },
  {
    "start": 1442.08,
    "end": 1445.52,
    "text": "But well design API, it should help."
  },
  {
    "start": 1445.52,
    "end": 1447.92,
    "text": "So this is yet another the goal like"
  },
  {
    "start": 1448.04,
    "end": 1459.16,
    "text": "If someone after my talk will come back and I don't know ask about in the organization, the architect, whether do we have policy like?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1459.22,
    "end": 1469.22,
    "text": "whether we have overview, architectural overview, how we supposed to you know deliver some kind of you know APIs, how it's supposed to look like you know under the hood"
  },
  {
    "start": 1469.419,
    "end": 1472.059,
    "text": "uh then I will think that it will be successful."
  },
  {
    "start": 1472.22,
    "end": 1472.78,
    "text": "Yeah, yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1473.1,
    "end": 1480.22,
    "text": "I think it's it's a great idea to think about the the quality of an API, not just if it works, but is it also in a"
  },
  {
    "start": 1480.64,
    "end": 1490.56,
    "text": "I think well-formed architecture to save tokens, to save resources and costs behind that and to look at the test are also at this quality characteristic of an API test."
  },
  {
    "start": 1490.66,
    "end": 1494.74,
    "text": "Last year I guess we have big trend about the sustainability."
  },
  {
    "start": 1495.06,
    "end": 1497.78,
    "text": "Being green and uh save the resources."
  },
  {
    "start": 1498.54,
    "end": 1501.98,
    "text": "Now we are in AI age, so forget about green."
  },
  {
    "start": 1502.3,
    "end": 1505.26,
    "text": "Take him Yeah give him more power."
  },
  {
    "start": 1505.26,
    "end": 1509.58,
    "text": "So but again I think that we'll come back, especially in the European Union."
  },
  {
    "start": 1509.58,
    "end": 1511.98,
    "text": "We'll very quickly come back like uh"
  },
  {
    "start": 1512.14,
    "end": 1514.7,
    "text": "Okay, efficiency first of all, you know."
  },
  {
    "start": 1514.7,
    "end": 1519.1,
    "text": "The performance we can say that all performance testing is old old stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 1519.1,
    "end": 1525.26,
    "text": "But if the it's right performance, you know, implemented and the right test being done"
  },
  {
    "start": 1525.14,
    "end": 1527.7,
    "text": "then those kind of questions should pop up."
  },
  {
    "start": 1527.7,
    "end": 1532.42,
    "text": "You know, how we can do better, how we can spend less resources."
  },
  {
    "start": 1532.42,
    "end": 1533.38,
    "text": "You know in"
  },
  {
    "start": 1533.66,
    "end": 1540.14,
    "text": "Improving our performance is not like giving you know golden card to AWS, give me more resources."
  },
  {
    "start": 1540.54,
    "end": 1544.06,
    "text": "But this is the hard way, this is engineering way."
  },
  {
    "start": 1543.84,
    "end": 1555.36,
    "text": "And we know that uh again because of expertise, because of level of difficulties, again because I guess lack of people and they are still not allowed uh no not not"
  },
  {
    "start": 1555.74,
    "end": 1557.98,
    "text": "skill enough to you know give that kind of stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 1557.98,
    "end": 1566.78,
    "text": "So this is the the the real you know defects with the big value, with the big you know uh severity and the you know big influence the system."
  },
  {
    "start": 1566.78,
    "end": 1567.1,
    "text": "So"
  },
  {
    "start": 1568.44,
    "end": 1579.56,
    "text": "What do you think uh uh uh a tester who knows hears hears this episode and says okay I'm just uh normal front-end guy and now I hear all the API stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 1579.24,
    "end": 1587.16,
    "text": "What would you give him for a tip to start dealing with APIs and which which architecture"
  },
  {
    "start": 1587.419,
    "end": 1598.46,
    "text": "is maybe the the easiest one to learn and and how how to learn it, how how to start uh to get in contact with this deep back-end stuff, this engineering stuff that I have"
  },
  {
    "start": 1598.54,
    "end": 1600.62,
    "text": "So not really a plan."
  },
  {
    "start": 1600.62,
    "end": 1603.98,
    "text": "Yeah, the first of all, don't worry."
  },
  {
    "start": 1603.98,
    "end": 1607.18,
    "text": "It's not gonna kick you, not gonna bite you."
  },
  {
    "start": 1607.18,
    "end": 1612.22,
    "text": "Uh well, honestly and observing the community from Poland, uh"
  },
  {
    "start": 1612.56,
    "end": 1618.32,
    "text": "I think that our front-end engineers already are much aware about that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1618.56,
    "end": 1622.56,
    "text": "I think that every day they already deal with the situation like they"
  },
  {
    "start": 1623.04,
    "end": 1625.2,
    "text": "front-end tests are too slow."
  },
  {
    "start": 1625.2,
    "end": 1628.48,
    "text": "So how do it's the best way to speed up?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1628.48,
    "end": 1634.56,
    "text": "Let's eliminate pre hooks or you know pre-action, post-action."
  },
  {
    "start": 1634.14,
    "end": 1637.58,
    "text": "and move them slowered, for example, to API."
  },
  {
    "start": 1637.58,
    "end": 1642.38,
    "text": "So I expect that probably everyone already have today test scenario like"
  },
  {
    "start": 1642.72,
    "end": 1646.56,
    "text": "uh pre-test action is being done by free other API."
  },
  {
    "start": 1646.56,
    "end": 1650.8,
    "text": "Then you have you know then you pop up some kind of browser, click click, click."
  },
  {
    "start": 1651.36,
    "end": 1654.0,
    "text": "Closing a browser and cleanup doing V API."
  },
  {
    "start": 1654.159,
    "end": 1659.76,
    "text": "I don't believe that you know advanced engineer you know still playing with old preparation."
  },
  {
    "start": 1659.519,
    "end": 1661.6,
    "text": "So I think they already know."
  },
  {
    "start": 1661.6,
    "end": 1665.84,
    "text": "If don't know, probably they they supposed to go in that way."
  },
  {
    "start": 1666.399,
    "end": 1670.72,
    "text": "Yet another proof that this is not only Polish case"
  },
  {
    "start": 1670.96,
    "end": 1671.92,
    "text": "Playwright."
  },
  {
    "start": 1671.92,
    "end": 1675.52,
    "text": "Playwright also very quickly has the client for API."
  },
  {
    "start": 1675.84,
    "end": 1681.6,
    "text": "So when you go and dive into Playwright, which is typical front-end tool."
  },
  {
    "start": 1681.26,
    "end": 1689.26,
    "text": "You already have the client and uh I remember by the old time that you have to you know install additional client, you know, do some hacking"
  },
  {
    "start": 1689.32,
    "end": 1694.52,
    "text": "Now the authors of this framework already know that this is you know basic stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 1694.52,
    "end": 1696.6,
    "text": "So they they're supposed to know."
  },
  {
    "start": 1696.94,
    "end": 1708.62,
    "text": "So th I think that uh definitely this is uh if you're not doing yet that kind of stuff, this is your next step in the career to to start going into."
  },
  {
    "start": 1709.66,
    "end": 1715.34,
    "text": "If you already doing, then uh REST is not the only protocol on the world."
  },
  {
    "start": 1715.34,
    "end": 1722.14,
    "text": "There are other protocols and it's uh it's easy and nice to know that about that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1721.98,
    "end": 1732.22,
    "text": "uh mocking also it's very easy because then you can test you know uh edge cases on the front end so you can you know prepare that kind of stuff"
  },
  {
    "start": 1733.18,
    "end": 1739.5,
    "text": "So yeah, I think this is a lot of fun and again for me this is much more stable interface."
  },
  {
    "start": 1739.98,
    "end": 1742.54,
    "text": "Even in my you know daily job."
  },
  {
    "start": 1742.3,
    "end": 1750.86,
    "text": "uh when i uh when i working is that uh I have and I'm leader of you know a few people."
  },
  {
    "start": 1750.64,
    "end": 1755.76,
    "text": "And I have a young uh lady who is very eager to do incino playwright testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1755.76,
    "end": 1762.96,
    "text": "And her m you know love is that let's do full end-to-end automation because end-to-end automation is a king."
  },
  {
    "start": 1763.2,
    "end": 1765.36,
    "text": "We're supposed to have always end-to-end."
  },
  {
    "start": 1765.519,
    "end": 1776.32,
    "text": "And we always have struggle like, you know, okay, be careful, do analyze, pick up only scenarios that you have to do it, rest, let's go down, down"
  },
  {
    "start": 1776.919,
    "end": 1788.52,
    "text": "And uh always showing case you see I have you know two thousand of you know API tests which doing they work in the same time like you 300 playwright scenarios"
  },
  {
    "start": 1788.54,
    "end": 1797.26,
    "text": "So of course this is not the you know that uh tournament uh who is doing because some of need to be covered here and there."
  },
  {
    "start": 1797.1,
    "end": 1805.019,
    "text": "But still this is for me kind of proof like uh better stability uh and uh even well"
  },
  {
    "start": 1806.16,
    "end": 1809.52,
    "text": "Now we have self-healing front-end scenarios."
  },
  {
    "start": 1809.52,
    "end": 1814.96,
    "text": "So maybe soon we'll be also stable and you know the with the changing um"
  },
  {
    "start": 1815.7,
    "end": 1816.42,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1816.9,
    "end": 1824.34,
    "text": "With the changing website it will be a case stable and the self uh the self-heal correct."
  },
  {
    "start": 1824.4,
    "end": 1836.16,
    "text": "and and they will keep working but still this is requires some additional you know work you know processing uh time stuff so I think the good testing strategy is supposed to have definitely both."
  },
  {
    "start": 1837.18,
    "end": 1841.18,
    "text": "I know that test pyramid is always somewhere."
  },
  {
    "start": 1842.78,
    "end": 1845.18,
    "text": "I'm not sure whether the amount of the test"
  },
  {
    "start": 1845.64,
    "end": 1847.64,
    "text": "should be exactly like pyramid."
  },
  {
    "start": 1847.64,
    "end": 1857.0,
    "text": "I think that testers on the end of the day should uh sit down, analyze the feature and really you know honestly tell to themselves"
  },
  {
    "start": 1857.2,
    "end": 1864.64,
    "text": "like on which level will be the best uh and definitely fight with the developers to do unit testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1868.86,
    "end": 1879.019,
    "text": "To decide if uh test is good uh at API level or at end-to-end level, you have to understand a little bit of API and not just knowing the end-to-end stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 1879.019,
    "end": 1881.98,
    "text": "So to make a good mix uh it's good to know"
  },
  {
    "start": 1882.04,
    "end": 1892.68,
    "text": "both levels and tend to decide together where where is where where do we what on which level understand which layer gives you what kind of you know features"
  },
  {
    "start": 1893.14,
    "end": 1901.38,
    "text": "Because definitely there will be some features front-end wise only and definitely they need to be tested in that way."
  },
  {
    "start": 1901.06,
    "end": 1904.02,
    "text": "And back end wise only like like this."
  },
  {
    "start": 1904.02,
    "end": 1908.9,
    "text": "And one more thing, uh for example I'm also here conducted a workshop"
  },
  {
    "start": 1909.019,
    "end": 1919.98,
    "text": "And the input to the workshop is just uh you know swagger documentation like at the very beginning I just you know showing people you know this is your"
  },
  {
    "start": 1920.44,
    "end": 1933.24,
    "text": "server you have only this documentation guess what is the you know logical happy flow of this application and uh I think that uh at the very beginning when we are in the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1933.44,
    "end": 1935.76,
    "text": "cycle of the process development."
  },
  {
    "start": 1935.76,
    "end": 1944.48,
    "text": "We don't have as a tester you know privilege to wait till very end as we go full flow with a nicely looking front and stuff like this."
  },
  {
    "start": 1944.48,
    "end": 1946.799,
    "text": "We need to understand what is happening"
  },
  {
    "start": 1947.04,
    "end": 1952.0,
    "text": "You know, in the back end we need to understand how to read this documentation, understand."
  },
  {
    "start": 1952.32,
    "end": 1956.96,
    "text": "Start already doing our test and whenever front end is ready, then just run it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1957.28,
    "end": 1961.2,
    "text": "You know swayting is is a waste and we know that the waste is not good."
  },
  {
    "start": 1962.38,
    "end": 1964.86,
    "text": "Seba, thank you very much for this insights."
  },
  {
    "start": 1964.86,
    "end": 1975.9,
    "text": "I think it makes a good uh perspective on the different API stuff and how to deal with it and why to deal with with APIs and MCP nowadays uh in the AI world."
  },
  {
    "start": 1975.44,
    "end": 1977.12,
    "text": "Uh thank you so much that you were here."
  },
  {
    "start": 1983.36,
    "end": 1986.559,
    "text": "Now you had the rehearsal here, so everything fun."
  },
  {
    "start": 1986.559,
    "end": 1990.159,
    "text": "And uh enjoy the rest of the conference and also more issues."
  },
  {
    "start": 1990.019,
    "end": 1996.179,
    "text": "And uh also next week the ICQB uh workshops and working groups and stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 1996.34,
    "end": 1996.74,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1997.059,
    "end": 2003.38,
    "text": "Sitting in uh air conditioned all uh cold uh working group rooms and dealing with"
  },
  {
    "start": 2004.06,
    "end": 2010.78,
    "text": "Well this is part of the experience like uh first of all you're not sitting there alone."
  },
  {
    "start": 2010.78,
    "end": 2016.14,
    "text": "The this is the unique opportunity that uh all those other crazy people"
  },
  {
    "start": 2016.44,
    "end": 2027.72,
    "text": "like you that you just taking vacation from paid job then doing voluntary work somewhere not always with the you know that nice place like Mauritius but somewhere"
  },
  {
    "start": 2027.64,
    "end": 2030.2,
    "text": "It's n th it's not the normal behavior."
  },
  {
    "start": 2030.2,
    "end": 2035.88,
    "text": "So you are sitting with group of dot crazy people and you f you have enjoying to you know each other."
  },
  {
    "start": 2035.88,
    "end": 2036.6,
    "text": "That's true."
  },
  {
    "start": 2036.6,
    "end": 2038.68,
    "text": "We are all a little bit crazy"
  },
  {
    "start": 2038.76,
    "end": 2039.559,
    "text": "Thank you so much."
  },
  {
    "start": 2040.36,
    "end": 2040.84,
    "text": "Thank you."
  },
  {
    "start": 2040.84,
    "end": 2041.799,
    "text": "Have a good day."
  }
]