[
  {
    "start": 0.001,
    "end": 2.6,
    "text": "Hi there, I'm Richie, your podcast host."
  },
  {
    "start": 3.24,
    "end": 7.8,
    "text": "I'm a people and tech enthusiast, trackie, and someone who believes that software isn't"
  },
  {
    "start": 7.96,
    "end": 10.28,
    "text": "just supposed to work, it's supposed to matter."
  },
  {
    "start": 11.64,
    "end": 16.36,
    "text": "This time in my podcast I had the pleasure of speaking with someone very special, Isabel"
  },
  {
    "start": 16.5,
    "end": 16.84,
    "text": "Evans."
  },
  {
    "start": 17.54,
    "end": 22.46,
    "text": "If you have ever been to a testing conference, read a paper or flip through a book on quality,"
  },
  {
    "start": 22.88,
    "end": 24.74,
    "text": "you've probably come across her name."
  },
  {
    "start": 25.92,
    "end": 31.66,
    "text": "is one of those rare voices in our industry, sharp, kind and endlessly curious and humorous."
  },
  {
    "start": 33.26,
    "end": 37.26,
    "text": "At the testing retreat we talked about stereotypes in IT and testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 38.33,
    "end": 44.0,
    "text": "Are testers really that quiet, in socially awkward introverts we've always imagined"
  },
  {
    "start": 44.18,
    "end": 46.54,
    "text": "or is that just a myth we've never questioned?"
  },
  {
    "start": 47.98,
    "end": 52.9,
    "text": "What if testers have hobbies like acting, boat building, urban planning or even music"
  },
  {
    "start": 53.12,
    "end": 53.54,
    "text": "composition?"
  },
  {
    "start": 55.24,
    "end": 60.78,
    "text": "Maybe the real issue might not be the testers at all, but our hiring and recruitment filters."
  },
  {
    "start": 61.62,
    "end": 65.48,
    "text": "And if that's so, what can we do to open our minds there?"
  },
  {
    "start": 67.34,
    "end": 72.68,
    "text": "And let's look what all of this has to do with testing tools and the illusion of usability"
  },
  {
    "start": 73.1,
    "end": 74.12,
    "text": "we often talk about."
  },
  {
    "start": 75.76,
    "end": 81.04,
    "text": "This is a conversation about breaking boxes, seeing people and building a more human future"
  },
  {
    "start": 81.16,
    "end": 81.52,
    "text": "in tech."
  },
  {
    "start": 82.0,
    "end": 85.7,
    "text": "Are you ready of challenging some of your old thinking?"
  },
  {
    "start": 86.24,
    "end": 87.22,
    "text": "Then let's go!"
  },
  {
    "start": 88.44,
    "end": 90.34,
    "text": "Hi Isabel, nice to have you on the show!"
  },
  {
    "start": 90.8,
    "end": 93.82,
    "text": "Well, thank you for having me. I'm really pleased to be here."
  },
  {
    "start": 93.94,
    "end": 96.6,
    "text": "Yeah, yeah, very nice. It's the first time we met in person here."
  },
  {
    "start": 96.68,
    "end": 97.06,
    "text": "It is,"
  },
  {
    "start": 97.16,
    "end": 97.86,
    "text": "isn't it? Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 98.0,
    "end": 98.8,
    "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. We"
  },
  {
    "start": 98.8,
    "end": 101.96,
    "text": "are here at the testing retreat, the 28th testing retreat in Belgium."
  },
  {
    "start": 102.24,
    "end": 102.42,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 103.1,
    "end": 109.86,
    "text": "Yeah, it was very nice and you gave yesterday a short insight into one of your works now."
  },
  {
    "start": 111.58,
    "end": 115.28,
    "text": "and you're dealing with how to break stereotypes."
  },
  {
    "start": 116.58,
    "end": 122.06,
    "text": "Yes, and so please tell us here what's going on in there."
  },
  {
    "start": 122.26,
    "end": 125.9,
    "text": "All right. So it's part of the research I'm doing."
  },
  {
    "start": 126.0,
    "end": 127.7,
    "text": "So it's one of the outcomes."
  },
  {
    "start": 130.42,
    "end": 131.62,
    "text": "I'm not sure where to start here."
  },
  {
    "start": 132.02,
    "end": 136.42,
    "text": "One of the things that has happened to me with the research,"
  },
  {
    "start": 136.52,
    "end": 139.84,
    "text": "and I get a feel it might be quite usual,"
  },
  {
    "start": 140.68,
    "end": 142.12,
    "text": "is you have a hypothesis,"
  },
  {
    "start": 142.94,
    "end": 144.92,
    "text": "and as you're collecting data,"
  },
  {
    "start": 146.959,
    "end": 148.9,
    "text": "parts of the hypothesis aren't right,"
  },
  {
    "start": 148.96,
    "end": 149.96,
    "text": "and then you say, \"Oh, well, actually,"
  },
  {
    "start": 150.1,
    "end": 151.52,
    "text": "\"well, I need to check this thing over here,\""
  },
  {
    "start": 151.52,
    "end": 152.7,
    "text": "and collect some more data,"
  },
  {
    "start": 153.17,
    "end": 155.98,
    "text": "and then you find patterns for more hypotheses"
  },
  {
    "start": 156.2,
    "end": 156.88,
    "text": "and test them."
  },
  {
    "start": 157.28,
    "end": 159.34,
    "text": "You're kind of looping round, iteratively."
  },
  {
    "start": 160.8,
    "end": 163.0,
    "text": "And so, from the research,"
  },
  {
    "start": 163.72,
    "end": 168.36,
    "text": "which started in 2017 and we're in our 2024."
  },
  {
    "start": 170.84,
    "end": 173.58,
    "text": "I started to see various different patterns."
  },
  {
    "start": 175.08,
    "end": 177.42,
    "text": "I was originally looking at"
  },
  {
    "start": 177.46,
    "end": 180.22,
    "text": "testers and their experiences of tools."
  },
  {
    "start": 181.12,
    "end": 185.54,
    "text": "One of the things came out of that was that there"
  },
  {
    "start": 185.54,
    "end": 187.34,
    "text": "was perhaps a lack of clarity about"
  },
  {
    "start": 187.6,
    "end": 189.7,
    "text": "actually who was doing testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 189.98,
    "end": 191.02,
    "text": "So you've got the"
  },
  {
    "start": 191.02,
    "end": 192.32,
    "text": "title, tester."
  },
  {
    "start": 192.8,
    "end": 193.28,
    "text": "There's"
  },
  {
    "start": 193.28,
    "end": 194.76,
    "text": "actually lots of people doing testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 194.94,
    "end": 196.8,
    "text": "They may or may not have that job title,"
  },
  {
    "start": 197.13,
    "end": 199.12,
    "text": "but even people who have got that job title,"
  },
  {
    "start": 199.24,
    "end": 200.84,
    "text": "they're not all the"
  },
  {
    "start": 200.84,
    "end": 201.28,
    "text": "same."
  },
  {
    "start": 202.08,
    "end": 204.12,
    "text": "But I hadn't really got the evidence for that."
  },
  {
    "start": 204.12,
    "end": 206.18,
    "text": "It was hunch and experience."
  },
  {
    "start": 207.76,
    "end": 212.02,
    "text": "So I ran an industry survey and that"
  },
  {
    "start": 212.18,
    "end": 217.38,
    "text": "went out via online networks and conferences and so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 218.239,
    "end": 221.06,
    "text": "Collected data from open questions,"
  },
  {
    "start": 221.42,
    "end": 227.78,
    "text": "I was asking people about things like how they did their testing and the approaches they had,"
  },
  {
    "start": 227.78,
    "end": 234.52,
    "text": "and so on and so forth, the tools they were using. But I was also asking in that survey"
  },
  {
    "start": 234.88,
    "end": 243.66,
    "text": "questions about their hobbies, their backgrounds, to find out about them as people,"
  },
  {
    "start": 244.52,
    "end": 247.94,
    "text": "as opposed to how they were doing their work, and then kind of even start lining it up,"
  },
  {
    "start": 248.86,
    "end": 251.66,
    "text": "correlating things or finding that they don't correlate."
  },
  {
    "start": 253.48,
    "end": 257.519,
    "text": "Out of that, I started seeing"
  },
  {
    "start": 257.7,
    "end": 261.18,
    "text": "that testers were from a very wide set of backgrounds."
  },
  {
    "start": 261.5,
    "end": 264.5,
    "text": "So not just my hunch that that might be the case,"
  },
  {
    "start": 264.62,
    "end": 266.38,
    "text": "but actually the evidence of it."
  },
  {
    "start": 266.8,
    "end": 268.84,
    "text": "People coming in from boat building,"
  },
  {
    "start": 269.16,
    "end": 271.98,
    "text": "theater studies, international relations,"
  },
  {
    "start": 273.18,
    "end": 276.92,
    "text": "urban planning, artists, and so on and so forth."
  },
  {
    "start": 277.26,
    "end": 280.1,
    "text": "and a really wide range of hobbies."
  },
  {
    "start": 283.24,
    "end": 285.76,
    "text": "Arts hobbies, very,"
  },
  {
    "start": 288.54,
    "end": 290.26,
    "text": "I'm kind of losing my track here."
  },
  {
    "start": 291.7,
    "end": 293.42,
    "text": "A very wide range of hobbies and"
  },
  {
    "start": 293.5,
    "end": 295.64,
    "text": "people with multiple hobbies and so on and so forth."
  },
  {
    "start": 295.64,
    "end": 298.92,
    "text": "You say, well, why is that of importance or of interest?"
  },
  {
    "start": 299.7,
    "end": 300.74,
    "text": "Obviously, we're a"
  },
  {
    "start": 300.74,
    "end": 301.74,
    "text": "wide"
  },
  {
    "start": 301.74,
    "end": 302.08,
    "text": "group of"
  },
  {
    "start": 302.25,
    "end": 304.82,
    "text": "people with wide interests and all the rest of it."
  },
  {
    "start": 305.58,
    "end": 311.14,
    "text": "But there's actually a set of stereotypes about who is in IT."
  },
  {
    "start": 312.02,
    "end": 317.82,
    "text": "Some of those are encapsulated in recruitment and career advice databases."
  },
  {
    "start": 319.34,
    "end": 322.32,
    "text": "I came across a paper somebody called Machesney had"
  },
  {
    "start": 322.44,
    "end": 325.44,
    "text": "written where they were looking at IT people in general."
  },
  {
    "start": 326.12,
    "end": 330.72,
    "text": "They were looking at people who wanted to be in IT and people who actually were in IT,"
  },
  {
    "start": 331.22,
    "end": 336.96,
    "text": "and comparing those people with, if you like, the stereotype of an IT person"
  },
  {
    "start": 337.46,
    "end": 339.3,
    "text": "that was contained within recruitment"
  },
  {
    "start": 339.3,
    "end": 340.7,
    "text": "databases and"
  },
  {
    "start": 340.7,
    "end": 342.26,
    "text": "careers advice databases."
  },
  {
    "start": 342.52,
    "end": 343.96,
    "text": "And what is the stereotype?"
  },
  {
    "start": 345.24,
    "end": 345.48,
    "text": "Good,"
  },
  {
    "start": 345.6,
    "end": 352.28,
    "text": "thank you. So the stereotype was very much saying that people who are going to be good in IT"
  },
  {
    "start": 353.34,
    "end": 358.44,
    "text": "would be very likely to people who didn't have very much social activity,"
  },
  {
    "start": 359.54,
    "end": 363.82,
    "text": "weren't interested in the arts, weren't particularly communicative,"
  },
  {
    "start": 365.06,
    "end": 370.96,
    "text": "had perhaps very often one hobby or interest that they were quite mono-fixed on."
  },
  {
    "start": 372.77,
    "end": 378.04,
    "text": "So quite a nerdy, narrow, particular sort of person."
  },
  {
    "start": 379.68,
    "end": 384.78,
    "text": "And so when you look at those careers recruitment type databases, he's actually saying,"
  },
  {
    "start": 384.78,
    "end": 387.38,
    "text": "or if you're this sort of person, you should go into IT."
  },
  {
    "start": 388.54,
    "end": 392.58,
    "text": "Now, when you look to what we want to do,"
  },
  {
    "start": 392.6,
    "end": 394.16,
    "text": "what many people want for IT,"
  },
  {
    "start": 394.88,
    "end": 399.54,
    "text": "there's talk about diversity and inclusion and talk about,"
  },
  {
    "start": 401.2,
    "end": 405.82,
    "text": "if we're representing the world at large, humanity at large,"
  },
  {
    "start": 406.7,
    "end": 409.88,
    "text": "if you've just got one narrow group of people doing the work,"
  },
  {
    "start": 409.92,
    "end": 411.38,
    "text": "is that sensible?"
  },
  {
    "start": 412.26,
    "end": 415.24,
    "text": "So, McChesney had done that work to look at that."
  },
  {
    "start": 415.5,
    "end": 417.22,
    "text": "What they found was,"
  },
  {
    "start": 419.14,
    "end": 421.9,
    "text": "a relatively small percentage of the people in"
  },
  {
    "start": 421.98,
    "end": 428.1,
    "text": "their sample who were IT people met that stereotypes."
  },
  {
    "start": 428.5,
    "end": 430.72,
    "text": "There were a wider group of people working in IT."
  },
  {
    "start": 431.979,
    "end": 435.1,
    "text": "I'm having an awful old age blank brain moment."
  },
  {
    "start": 435.3,
    "end": 437.64,
    "text": "I think it was, let's say it was 30 percent."
  },
  {
    "start": 438.0,
    "end": 438.2,
    "text": "So, maybe"
  },
  {
    "start": 438.2,
    "end": 439.38,
    "text": "26, 30 percent,"
  },
  {
    "start": 439.58,
    "end": 441.22,
    "text": "something like that. Let's talk about it being"
  },
  {
    "start": 441.22,
    "end": 442.52,
    "text": "That kind of amount."
  },
  {
    "start": 442.96,
    "end": 444.38,
    "text": "So, you know, a significant"
  },
  {
    "start": 444.38,
    "end": 445.18,
    "text": "proportion met"
  },
  {
    "start": 445.18,
    "end": 445.78,
    "text": "the stereotype,"
  },
  {
    "start": 446.62,
    "end": 448.94,
    "text": "but it wasn't everybody, it wasn't the majority,"
  },
  {
    "start": 449.76,
    "end": 451.54,
    "text": "by any means, nowhere near the majority."
  },
  {
    "start": 453.72,
    "end": 456.2,
    "text": "And when you look to the people who are aspirant"
  },
  {
    "start": 456.61,
    "end": 460.34,
    "text": "to be in IT, they were closer into the stereotype."
  },
  {
    "start": 460.64,
    "end": 463.88,
    "text": "In other words, the recruitment process was narrowing down"
  },
  {
    "start": 464.4,
    "end": 467.18,
    "text": "the people who were gonna be encouraged to come into"
  },
  {
    "start": 467.18,
    "end": 467.52,
    "text": "IT"
  },
  {
    "start": 467.88,
    "end": 469.74,
    "text": "or felt they had a right to be in IT."
  },
  {
    "start": 471.06,
    "end": 476.22,
    "text": "So I took the modeling that Machesni had done with their data,"
  },
  {
    "start": 476.68,
    "end": 479.8,
    "text": "and I reapplied it in to my data."
  },
  {
    "start": 480.06,
    "end": 481.92,
    "text": "So I wasn't expecting to be doing this,"
  },
  {
    "start": 482.14,
    "end": 482.32,
    "text": "but"
  },
  {
    "start": 482.32,
    "end": 483.26,
    "text": "it's like, \"Oh, wow."
  },
  {
    "start": 483.64,
    "end": 483.8,
    "text": "Okay,"
  },
  {
    "start": 483.82,
    "end": 485.44,
    "text": "let's try this.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 485.48,
    "end": 488.26,
    "text": "When I did it with my sample of testers,"
  },
  {
    "start": 489.64,
    "end": 492.72,
    "text": "it was only six percent of them that met that stereotype."
  },
  {
    "start": 493.9,
    "end": 497.119,
    "text": "In fact, when you looked at things like"
  },
  {
    "start": 497.12,
    "end": 500.64,
    "text": "the number of people who had arts-related hobbies."
  },
  {
    "start": 501.1,
    "end": 502.12,
    "text": "It was enormous."
  },
  {
    "start": 502.96,
    "end": 505.6,
    "text": "Huge number of people have arts-related hobbies."
  },
  {
    "start": 507.06,
    "end": 509.38,
    "text": "Even within that, the other thing about"
  },
  {
    "start": 509.38,
    "end": 513.44,
    "text": "the IT stereotype was very much about being quite passive in those interests."
  },
  {
    "start": 513.979,
    "end": 516.32,
    "text": "I think that doesn't fit with what I know."
  },
  {
    "start": 517.02,
    "end": 520.64,
    "text": "As you look at it, so you take something like a love of music"
  },
  {
    "start": 520.64,
    "end": 521.56,
    "text": "as"
  },
  {
    "start": 521.56,
    "end": 523.06,
    "text": "part of those interests."
  },
  {
    "start": 523.88,
    "end": 526.36,
    "text": "There were a proportion of people amongst"
  },
  {
    "start": 526.46,
    "end": 529.14,
    "text": "the testers who were talking about listening to music."
  },
  {
    "start": 529.94,
    "end": 531.0,
    "text": "That's quite passive,"
  },
  {
    "start": 531.96,
    "end": 533.4,
    "text": "but it's an arts interest."
  },
  {
    "start": 533.92,
    "end": 536.38,
    "text": "There were another group of people who were more active."
  },
  {
    "start": 537.3,
    "end": 538.78,
    "text": "So they were playing music,"
  },
  {
    "start": 538.82,
    "end": 540.3,
    "text": "they were singing in choirs."
  },
  {
    "start": 541.14,
    "end": 543.0,
    "text": "That was quite interesting, quite a proportion of those."
  },
  {
    "start": 543.26,
    "end": 544.76,
    "text": "But then you'd also got people going,"
  },
  {
    "start": 544.94,
    "end": 546.18,
    "text": "\"Oh, I compose music,"
  },
  {
    "start": 546.52,
    "end": 546.94,
    "text": "I write"
  },
  {
    "start": 546.94,
    "end": 547.779,
    "text": "songs.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 547.78,
    "end": 551.08,
    "text": "So they're actually really actively"
  },
  {
    "start": 551.08,
    "end": 552.84,
    "text": "engaged and"
  },
  {
    "start": 552.84,
    "end": 553.74,
    "text": "creative."
  },
  {
    "start": 555.38,
    "end": 559.18,
    "text": "And that was true for a number of those different interests."
  },
  {
    "start": 559.34,
    "end": 564.26,
    "text": "So that was fascinating to me that people just weren't,"
  },
  {
    "start": 564.46,
    "end": 566.94,
    "text": "from that point of view, meeting the stereotype."
  },
  {
    "start": 568.04,
    "end": 571.26,
    "text": "And then when you actually looked at people's backgrounds in terms"
  },
  {
    "start": 571.26,
    "end": 575.02,
    "text": "of what degree they'd done, there were people with arts degrees,"
  },
  {
    "start": 575.02,
    "end": 577.64,
    "text": "with science degrees, with social science degrees,"
  },
  {
    "start": 578.52,
    "end": 579.46,
    "text": "with arts degree--"
  },
  {
    "start": 579.8,
    "end": 581.18,
    "text": "sorry, with IT degrees,"
  },
  {
    "start": 582.0,
    "end": 583.74,
    "text": "and also people without degrees at all."
  },
  {
    "start": 583.74,
    "end": 585.34,
    "text": "So a wide range of backgrounds"
  },
  {
    "start": 585.78,
    "end": 588.82,
    "text": "and people who'd done a wide range of jobs beforehand."
  },
  {
    "start": 591.16,
    "end": 593.56,
    "text": "So, yes, the original version of the paper"
  },
  {
    "start": 593.66,
    "end": 596.18,
    "text": "was called \"From Artists to Urban Planners,\""
  },
  {
    "start": 596.64,
    "end": 599.62,
    "text": "and then we actually changed the title later"
  },
  {
    "start": 600.12,
    "end": 602.46,
    "text": "to \"Breaking Stereotypes.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 602.46,
    "end": 605.22,
    "text": "When you looked at the roles that people were taking,"
  },
  {
    "start": 606.12,
    "end": 607.54,
    "text": "I mean, I guess you might think,"
  },
  {
    "start": 607.54,
    "end": 609.26,
    "text": "\"Oh, if they're coming in as arts graduates,"
  },
  {
    "start": 609.5,
    "end": 612.82,
    "text": "they're probably going to be doing more sort of test management,"
  },
  {
    "start": 614.279,
    "end": 616.22,
    "text": "maybe some test design,"
  },
  {
    "start": 616.34,
    "end": 617.66,
    "text": "but not so much of the technical"
  },
  {
    "start": 617.66,
    "end": 618.22,
    "text": "roles.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 618.5,
    "end": 621.18,
    "text": "Forty percent of those arts graduates were actually"
  },
  {
    "start": 621.48,
    "end": 623.7,
    "text": "doing test automation, technical"
  },
  {
    "start": 623.7,
    "end": 624.5,
    "text": "testing roles."
  },
  {
    "start": 625.22,
    "end": 627.04,
    "text": "When you looked at the IT graduates,"
  },
  {
    "start": 628.16,
    "end": 631.36,
    "text": "around about 40 percent of them were not doing technical roles at all."
  },
  {
    "start": 631.64,
    "end": 634.76,
    "text": "So it's like the degree doesn't predict"
  },
  {
    "start": 634.76,
    "end": 635.18,
    "text": "what you're going"
  },
  {
    "start": 635.18,
    "end": 635.94,
    "text": "to end up doing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 636.34,
    "end": 637.8,
    "text": "or your aptitude for doing it,"
  },
  {
    "start": 637.81,
    "end": 639.62,
    "text": "or your enjoyment in doing it."
  },
  {
    "start": 641.64,
    "end": 645.36,
    "text": "But one of the things that was also interesting,"
  },
  {
    "start": 645.43,
    "end": 646.88,
    "text": "and this was like it was another bit,"
  },
  {
    "start": 646.92,
    "end": 648.08,
    "text": "while I've got this data,"
  },
  {
    "start": 648.43,
    "end": 650.72,
    "text": "I might just try modeling this and seeing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 651.18,
    "end": 652.34,
    "text": "can I find any patterns?"
  },
  {
    "start": 653.04,
    "end": 655.52,
    "text": "So I was looking at communication styles,"
  },
  {
    "start": 656.36,
    "end": 660.28,
    "text": "and there was a bit of a correlation between"
  },
  {
    "start": 662.1,
    "end": 664.46,
    "text": "people's degree subject"
  },
  {
    "start": 665.46,
    "end": 669.0,
    "text": "and how they express themselves when they were talking about test approaches."
  },
  {
    "start": 670.36,
    "end": 677.12,
    "text": "So the arts graduates wrote very easy to read,"
  },
  {
    "start": 677.76,
    "end": 681.82,
    "text": "well-expressed, almost I'm going to say essay-like,"
  },
  {
    "start": 681.94,
    "end": 685.62,
    "text": "but storytelling descriptions of what they were doing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 685.82,
    "end": 686.08,
    "text": "and"
  },
  {
    "start": 686.08,
    "end": 689.28,
    "text": "they talked a lot about people and the problems they were solving."
  },
  {
    "start": 690.06,
    "end": 694.74,
    "text": "The social scientists very much talked about the organization as a whole,"
  },
  {
    "start": 695.03,
    "end": 697.24,
    "text": "and teams, and how people were interacting."
  },
  {
    "start": 698.62,
    "end": 702.5,
    "text": "The science graduates, they made ordered lists,"
  },
  {
    "start": 702.74,
    "end": 704.58,
    "text": "like this is what I do in this order,"
  },
  {
    "start": 704.71,
    "end": 706.24,
    "text": "as there's a real structure to it."
  },
  {
    "start": 706.33,
    "end": 708.3,
    "text": "So it's quite terse but very informative."
  },
  {
    "start": 711.42,
    "end": 716.12,
    "text": "The people who didn't have degrees were very much into storytelling."
  },
  {
    "start": 716.76,
    "end": 717.16,
    "text": "Almost"
  },
  {
    "start": 717.16,
    "end": 719.3,
    "text": "like, \"I've got a glass of beer and I'm sitting here,"
  },
  {
    "start": 719.34,
    "end": 720.52,
    "text": "I'm telling you all about it."
  },
  {
    "start": 720.56,
    "end": 721.66,
    "text": "I'm going to be writing it,"
  },
  {
    "start": 721.8,
    "end": 722.66,
    "text": "but that's"
  },
  {
    "start": 722.66,
    "end": 723.84,
    "text": "what's happening.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 723.84,
    "end": 725.52,
    "text": "Now, the IT graduates,"
  },
  {
    "start": 726.84,
    "end": 728.38,
    "text": "loads of technical detail,"
  },
  {
    "start": 729.259,
    "end": 731.26,
    "text": "not very well-structured,"
  },
  {
    "start": 732.12,
    "end": 733.72,
    "text": "quite hard to get through,"
  },
  {
    "start": 734.28,
    "end": 736.02,
    "text": "and not very storytelling."
  },
  {
    "start": 736.7,
    "end": 738.06,
    "text": "I thought, \"Wow, actually,"
  },
  {
    "start": 738.54,
    "end": 740.76,
    "text": "We need those arts graduates"
  },
  {
    "start": 740.76,
    "end": 741.7,
    "text": "and"
  },
  {
    "start": 741.76,
    "end": 744.76,
    "text": "those social scientists to get us communicating across"
  },
  {
    "start": 744.76,
    "end": 747.88,
    "text": "the organization and telling our story,"
  },
  {
    "start": 748.32,
    "end": 750.34,
    "text": "and we need those scientists to give us"
  },
  {
    "start": 750.48,
    "end": 751.64,
    "text": "that order"
  },
  {
    "start": 751.64,
    "end": 752.24,
    "text": "and"
  },
  {
    "start": 752.24,
    "end": 752.94,
    "text": "structure."
  },
  {
    "start": 754.76,
    "end": 756.8,
    "text": "The IT graduates are bringing in"
  },
  {
    "start": 756.98,
    "end": 759.34,
    "text": "the technical skills that they've learned,"
  },
  {
    "start": 759.48,
    "end": 762.26,
    "text": "but maybe not those other communication skills."
  },
  {
    "start": 763.86,
    "end": 765.62,
    "text": "I'm a computer science graduate,"
  },
  {
    "start": 766.12,
    "end": 767.64,
    "text": "and I know I'm chatting away now,"
  },
  {
    "start": 767.7,
    "end": 771.4,
    "text": "but actually in my kind of natural state personality,"
  },
  {
    "start": 771.68,
    "end": 774.36,
    "text": "I'm much more over in that solitary"
  },
  {
    "start": 774.78,
    "end": 775.58,
    "text": "kind of"
  },
  {
    "start": 775.58,
    "end": 776.76,
    "text": "Sheldon"
  },
  {
    "start": 776.76,
    "end": 777.1,
    "text": "Cooper"
  },
  {
    "start": 777.1,
    "end": 778.28,
    "text": "side of the world, you"
  },
  {
    "start": 778.28,
    "end": 778.44,
    "text": "know?"
  },
  {
    "start": 780.14,
    "end": 782.04,
    "text": "But I thought, \"God, we need those other graduates."
  },
  {
    "start": 782.1,
    "end": 784.16,
    "text": "\"We need those people from the other backgrounds"
  },
  {
    "start": 784.84,
    "end": 786.46,
    "text": "\"in order to be able to put across,"
  },
  {
    "start": 787.06,
    "end": 788.4,
    "text": "\"these are the risks we found,"
  },
  {
    "start": 788.62,
    "end": 790.3,
    "text": "\"here's what we need to communicate to you."
  },
  {
    "start": 790.68,
    "end": 791.56,
    "text": "\"What do you need from"
  },
  {
    "start": 791.56,
    "end": 791.98,
    "text": "us?\""
  },
  {
    "start": 792.04,
    "end": 795.86,
    "text": "- And it leads to a very different and diverse perspectives."
  },
  {
    "start": 796.36,
    "end": 797.28,
    "text": "- Yeah, absolutely."
  },
  {
    "start": 797.5,
    "end": 800.16,
    "text": "and perspectives that reflect the rest of the world."
  },
  {
    "start": 800.28,
    "end": 802.22,
    "text": "- Yeah, yeah, yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 802.74,
    "end": 804.6,
    "text": "And you put it in,"
  },
  {
    "start": 805.26,
    "end": 810.98,
    "text": "it was the base was from your work about the test tools."
  },
  {
    "start": 811.72,
    "end": 812.02,
    "text": "- Yes."
  },
  {
    "start": 812.22,
    "end": 814.74,
    "text": "- What were the insights from this diversity"
  },
  {
    "start": 816.06,
    "end": 818.36,
    "text": "from the tester to your work?"
  },
  {
    "start": 819.78,
    "end": 824.339,
    "text": "- One of the earlier findings that led to that survey"
  },
  {
    "start": 824.34,
    "end": 828.54,
    "text": "was a realization that first of all,"
  },
  {
    "start": 828.84,
    "end": 831.92,
    "text": "testers lived experience of using those tools."
  },
  {
    "start": 832.6,
    "end": 833.94,
    "text": "So their user experiences,"
  },
  {
    "start": 834.02,
    "end": 838.82,
    "text": "the users of the tools knocked onto a poor lived experience."
  },
  {
    "start": 838.94,
    "end": 840.48,
    "text": "So it's like it was damaging."
  },
  {
    "start": 841.08,
    "end": 843.26,
    "text": "There's a lot of frustration, a lot of upset."
  },
  {
    "start": 844.12,
    "end": 845.8,
    "text": "There were some good emotions as well,"
  },
  {
    "start": 845.8,
    "end": 847.78,
    "text": "but it was very high emotional response."
  },
  {
    "start": 848.6,
    "end": 850.2,
    "text": "Also a set of findings."
  },
  {
    "start": 851.48,
    "end": 852.88,
    "text": "So it's important to do something"
  },
  {
    "start": 852.88,
    "end": 853.38,
    "text": "about this"
  },
  {
    "start": 853.38,
    "end": 853.66,
    "text": "for"
  },
  {
    "start": 853.54,
    "end": 856.32,
    "text": "people's health and welfare at work."
  },
  {
    "start": 857.4,
    "end": 863.1,
    "text": "But also that I thought usability was going to be the problem,"
  },
  {
    "start": 863.46,
    "end": 863.56,
    "text": "and"
  },
  {
    "start": 863.56,
    "end": 864.62,
    "text": "it kind of was,"
  },
  {
    "start": 864.8,
    "end": 866.24,
    "text": "but not in the way I expected."
  },
  {
    "start": 867.0,
    "end": 871.24,
    "text": "So one of the things was the highest scoring,"
  },
  {
    "start": 872.96,
    "end": 875.06,
    "text": "quality attributes of the tools that"
  },
  {
    "start": 875.13,
    "end": 877.22,
    "text": "people talked about was the operability."
  },
  {
    "start": 877.41,
    "end": 879.34,
    "text": "In other words, can I carry on my workflow?"
  },
  {
    "start": 879.9,
    "end": 881.779,
    "text": "Can I carry out the tasks to reach"
  },
  {
    "start": 881.78,
    "end": 883.7,
    "text": "the goal that I have as a human being"
  },
  {
    "start": 883.7,
    "end": 884.28,
    "text": "with"
  },
  {
    "start": 884.28,
    "end": 884.86,
    "text": "this tool."
  },
  {
    "start": 885.5,
    "end": 888.74,
    "text": "That was the most problematic and the most raised."
  },
  {
    "start": 890.1,
    "end": 892.94,
    "text": "You infer that from the way people are talking about it."
  },
  {
    "start": 892.98,
    "end": 895.9,
    "text": "You pull it out from what they've reported."
  },
  {
    "start": 896.08,
    "end": 897.94,
    "text": "It's not that you've asked them is operability"
  },
  {
    "start": 897.94,
    "end": 898.72,
    "text": "a problem."
  },
  {
    "start": 899.18,
    "end": 902.2,
    "text": "You've said, \"Describe to me an experience with the"
  },
  {
    "start": 902.2,
    "end": 902.66,
    "text": "tool,\""
  },
  {
    "start": 902.88,
    "end": 903.0,
    "text": "and"
  },
  {
    "start": 903.0,
    "end": 905.02,
    "text": "then from that you pull out what"
  },
  {
    "start": 905.26,
    "end": 908.14,
    "text": "actually the technical and quality attributes they're talking about."
  },
  {
    "start": 908.24,
    "end": 908.46,
    "text": "So it's"
  },
  {
    "start": 908.46,
    "end": 909.92,
    "text": "not"
  },
  {
    "start": 909.92,
    "end": 911.3,
    "text": "directly ask questions."
  },
  {
    "start": 911.44,
    "end": 912.7,
    "text": "It was all open questions."
  },
  {
    "start": 915.32,
    "end": 918.62,
    "text": "Also, one of the things that was really causing people"
  },
  {
    "start": 918.62,
    "end": 920.7,
    "text": "the most annoyance was tools that had been"
  },
  {
    "start": 920.86,
    "end": 923.28,
    "text": "bought because they had really pretty interfaces."
  },
  {
    "start": 924.16,
    "end": 928.0,
    "text": "So superficially, the usability is there,"
  },
  {
    "start": 928.0,
    "end": 929.4,
    "text": "but when you start using it,"
  },
  {
    "start": 929.42,
    "end": 931.3,
    "text": "it's not supporting how you do your"
  },
  {
    "start": 931.3,
    "end": 931.82,
    "text": "testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 933.059,
    "end": 937.04,
    "text": "So out of that came this concept of the illusion of usability."
  },
  {
    "start": 938.04,
    "end": 943.34,
    "text": "So I started talking with my academic supervisors about how do we deal with this?"
  },
  {
    "start": 943.4,
    "end": 948.74,
    "text": "And we started wondering whether a UX or academically an HCI perspective,"
  },
  {
    "start": 949.58,
    "end": 952.6,
    "text": "putting that lens on test tools would help"
  },
  {
    "start": 952.6,
    "end": 953.46,
    "text": "to"
  },
  {
    "start": 953.46,
    "end": 954.52,
    "text": "understand it."
  },
  {
    "start": 955.04,
    "end": 958.36,
    "text": "And when you do that, you start asking who is this tool for?"
  },
  {
    "start": 958.92,
    "end": 959.94,
    "text": "What are the characteristics?"
  },
  {
    "start": 960.58,
    "end": 964.06,
    "text": "What are the persona groups that we're dealing with?"
  },
  {
    "start": 964.24,
    "end": 967.44,
    "text": "and as I started investigating that,"
  },
  {
    "start": 967.44,
    "end": 968.52,
    "text": "I initially thought, \"Right,"
  },
  {
    "start": 968.58,
    "end": 971.44,
    "text": "I can set up a framework that's going to help tools designers"
  },
  {
    "start": 972.12,
    "end": 975.76,
    "text": "run this information through and it'll come out and say this is.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 975.8,
    "end": 976.62,
    "text": "It's too hard."
  },
  {
    "start": 976.78,
    "end": 977.16,
    "text": "There's too"
  },
  {
    "start": 977.16,
    "end": 977.82,
    "text": "many variables."
  },
  {
    "start": 978.0,
    "end": 979.16,
    "text": "I can't"
  },
  {
    "start": 979.16,
    "end": 979.54,
    "text": "do it."
  },
  {
    "start": 979.85,
    "end": 982.34,
    "text": "If you can't come up with the ideal test tool"
  },
  {
    "start": 982.34,
    "end": 982.78,
    "text": "or"
  },
  {
    "start": 983.02,
    "end": 987.1,
    "text": "even like the framework for helping you design the ideal test tool."
  },
  {
    "start": 987.92,
    "end": 992.9,
    "text": "Then I had a meeting with somebody who's an academic at another university,"
  },
  {
    "start": 993.6,
    "end": 995.32,
    "text": "a guy called Hossein Dugan."
  },
  {
    "start": 996.0,
    "end": 998.82,
    "text": "He was listening to what I was doing in the work and he said to me,"
  },
  {
    "start": 999.28,
    "end": 1001.7,
    "text": "\"You know the contribution could just be a set of"
  },
  {
    "start": 1001.86,
    "end": 1002.32,
    "text": "heuristics"
  },
  {
    "start": 1002.32,
    "end": 1003.14,
    "text": "that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1003.14,
    "end": 1005.56,
    "text": "people consider when they're designing a test tool."
  },
  {
    "start": 1006.18,
    "end": 1007.88,
    "text": "Don't try and write a whole framework."
  },
  {
    "start": 1008.0,
    "end": 1010.18,
    "text": "Don't try and write a tool for writing tools."
  },
  {
    "start": 1010.78,
    "end": 1012.24,
    "text": "Don't try and solve the problem."
  },
  {
    "start": 1012.82,
    "end": 1015.0,
    "text": "Go away and come up with what are the heuristics"
  },
  {
    "start": 1015.42,
    "end": 1017.18,
    "text": "based on the evidence you've got.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 1017.18,
    "end": 1018.62,
    "text": "So taking all the data,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1020.14,
    "end": 1022.24,
    "text": "I've come up with 12 heuristics,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1022.82,
    "end": 1027.079,
    "text": "which are couched as questions because they haven't got a single set answer."
  },
  {
    "start": 1027.68,
    "end": 1028.9,
    "text": "It's actually around,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1029.079,
    "end": 1031.839,
    "text": "you need to ask yourself these 12 questions,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1032.699,
    "end": 1035.0,
    "text": "and then where that takes you,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1035.36,
    "end": 1035.579,
    "text": "will"
  },
  {
    "start": 1035.579,
    "end": 1037.439,
    "text": "tell you how you need to design the tool."
  },
  {
    "start": 1038.959,
    "end": 1040.819,
    "text": "Those are now out of a repository."
  },
  {
    "start": 1041.699,
    "end": 1044.72,
    "text": "I'm going through industry case studies with people using them."
  },
  {
    "start": 1045.459,
    "end": 1050.06,
    "text": "They've been through several expert reviews and iterations of refinement,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1050.7,
    "end": 1054.98,
    "text": "and they'll go through a final set of expert reviews,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1056.36,
    "end": 1058.2,
    "text": "and then be published out."
  },
  {
    "start": 1058.92,
    "end": 1061.06,
    "text": "My vision for them is that they're out"
  },
  {
    "start": 1061.15,
    "end": 1063.38,
    "text": "under some sort of Creative Commons license."
  },
  {
    "start": 1063.79,
    "end": 1064.08,
    "text": "So"
  },
  {
    "start": 1064.08,
    "end": 1068.4,
    "text": "everybody in the industry who is designing tools in-house,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1069.46,
    "end": 1075.06,
    "text": "who is designing open source-based tools or vendors,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1075.73,
    "end": 1078.62,
    "text": "or people who are evaluating tools can pick"
  },
  {
    "start": 1078.58,
    "end": 1084.64,
    "text": "those heuristics up and use them in any way they want."
  },
  {
    "start": 1084.84,
    "end": 1085.06,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1085.66,
    "end": 1090.82,
    "text": "To help them think about how am I designing this tool or how am I evaluating"
  },
  {
    "start": 1090.82,
    "end": 1091.56,
    "text": "this tool."
  },
  {
    "start": 1094.14,
    "end": 1095.6,
    "text": "That's going to be the final product"
  },
  {
    "start": 1095.6,
    "end": 1096.3,
    "text": "out of"
  },
  {
    "start": 1096.3,
    "end": 1096.98,
    "text": "the research."
  },
  {
    "start": 1097.26,
    "end": 1097.44,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1098.08,
    "end": 1100.2,
    "text": "It's just going to be there available for everybody."
  },
  {
    "start": 1103.299,
    "end": 1105.54,
    "text": "Also, I've realized in designing them,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1105.58,
    "end": 1108.78,
    "text": "It's not like you go through 1 to 12 and you've got the answers."
  },
  {
    "start": 1109.72,
    "end": 1112.12,
    "text": "In themselves, they're different."
  },
  {
    "start": 1112.42,
    "end": 1117.32,
    "text": "I've seen on the different case studies, people using them in different contexts, picking"
  },
  {
    "start": 1117.36,
    "end": 1122.62,
    "text": "out particular ones as being important in this context, picking out a different order"
  },
  {
    "start": 1122.68,
    "end": 1124.86,
    "text": "to run them in, revisiting them"
  },
  {
    "start": 1124.86,
    "end": 1125.48,
    "text": "later"
  },
  {
    "start": 1125.48,
    "end": 1128.26,
    "text": "in the evaluation process or the design process because"
  },
  {
    "start": 1128.32,
    "end": 1130.58,
    "text": "they realize they've got to go back and revisit a question."
  },
  {
    "start": 1131.22,
    "end": 1137.42,
    "text": "So I hope really flexible as well, but a tool if you like,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1138.28,
    "end": 1139.9,
    "text": "the set of heuristics is a tool"
  },
  {
    "start": 1140.78,
    "end": 1143.38,
    "text": "which people have to use thinking."
  },
  {
    "start": 1143.98,
    "end": 1147.06,
    "text": "They're an aid to thinking, they're not a set of answers."
  },
  {
    "start": 1148.94,
    "end": 1150.44,
    "text": "So fingers crossed with that,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1151.76,
    "end": 1154.66,
    "text": "hoping to get all of that done over"
  },
  {
    "start": 1155.32,
    "end": 1156.959,
    "text": "between now and the end of the year"
  },
  {
    "start": 1156.96,
    "end": 1159.72,
    "text": "and then really be pushing it out,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1160.36,
    "end": 1162.02,
    "text": "writing up for my thesis"
  },
  {
    "start": 1162.24,
    "end": 1165.26,
    "text": "and then publicizing them more during next year."
  },
  {
    "start": 1165.8,
    "end": 1166.9,
    "text": "- Oh, great, great work."
  },
  {
    "start": 1166.96,
    "end": 1167.58,
    "text": "I like it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1167.6,
    "end": 1170.04,
    "text": "I read it last day, yesterday,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1171.22,
    "end": 1172.3,
    "text": "through the questions."
  },
  {
    "start": 1172.74,
    "end": 1174.2,
    "text": "It was very, very great."
  },
  {
    "start": 1174.32,
    "end": 1176.72,
    "text": "And I think also very practical to use it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1176.99,
    "end": 1179.82,
    "text": "So it's not very, not so high level,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1180.5,
    "end": 1183.02,
    "text": "but you can use it in a pragmatic, practical way."
  },
  {
    "start": 1183.22,
    "end": 1184.0,
    "text": "- I hope so."
  },
  {
    "start": 1184.42,
    "end": 1184.5,
    "text": "I"
  },
  {
    "start": 1184.5,
    "end": 1185.54,
    "text": "mean, if I can ask you,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1185.56,
    "end": 1187.2,
    "text": "I mean, you said you looked at them."
  },
  {
    "start": 1187.62,
    "end": 1193.44,
    "text": "I mean, for you, was there a particular question in there where you thought,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1193.66,
    "end": 1197.08,
    "text": "\"Oh, actually, I haven't thought of that before.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 1197.08,
    "end": 1200.2,
    "text": "Or was it confirming or was it more,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1200.66,
    "end": 1202.04,
    "text": "were there things which you thought, \"Yeah,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1202.14,
    "end": 1203.02,
    "text": "that sparks something"
  },
  {
    "start": 1203.02,
    "end": 1204.0,
    "text": "new for me.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 1204.0,
    "end": 1206.08,
    "text": ">> I think it's written down."
  },
  {
    "start": 1208.14,
    "end": 1210.72,
    "text": "When I think about tool design, it's very intuitive."
  },
  {
    "start": 1211.5,
    "end": 1214.559,
    "text": "This is now written down the questions and give"
  },
  {
    "start": 1214.56,
    "end": 1216.12,
    "text": "good orientation."
  },
  {
    "start": 1216.48,
    "end": 1219.2,
    "text": "Right. Okay. Okay. That's interesting."
  },
  {
    "start": 1220.04,
    "end": 1230.72,
    "text": "One question back to the stereotypes. You said that HR always in recruiting, doing very,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1230.94,
    "end": 1233.48,
    "text": "very fixed on the stereotypes of IT people."
  },
  {
    "start": 1233.78,
    "end": 1234.2,
    "text": "So what"
  },
  {
    "start": 1234.2,
    "end": 1235.84,
    "text": "do you recommend? How can we"
  },
  {
    "start": 1237.6,
    "end": 1244.44,
    "text": "soften that up? How can we transform it? Because we need diverse testers and IT people."
  },
  {
    "start": 1245.28,
    "end": 1253.86,
    "text": "I think one of the things is to talk to HR people and talk to recruiters. And I'm hoping that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1256.02,
    "end": 1262.92,
    "text": "the paper can give people evidence that they can take. And not just for recruiting testers,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1262.92,
    "end": 1266.54,
    "text": "but actually recruiting developers and UX people and"
  },
  {
    "start": 1266.98,
    "end": 1269.38,
    "text": "whoever else you need in the product owners,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1269.58,
    "end": 1271.76,
    "text": "systems analysts, architects, and so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 1272.36,
    "end": 1273.94,
    "text": "So I hope the paper gives people"
  },
  {
    "start": 1274.08,
    "end": 1275.72,
    "text": "things where they can pick it up and go,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1276.1,
    "end": 1278.62,
    "text": "\"Right, here's a piece of evidence. I can take that.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 1280.14,
    "end": 1284.92,
    "text": "I'm also at suggestion of the audience when I gave"
  },
  {
    "start": 1285.04,
    "end": 1290.46,
    "text": "this talk at the HUSDEF pre-conference meetup a couple of weeks ago."
  },
  {
    "start": 1291.0,
    "end": 1294.54,
    "text": "what the audience wanted me to do was take it to HR people."
  },
  {
    "start": 1295.1,
    "end": 1298.06,
    "text": "So I'm actually just in conversation now"
  },
  {
    "start": 1298.14,
    "end": 1299.58,
    "text": "with some HR people I know,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1299.66,
    "end": 1301.32,
    "text": "and I'll talk to them and say,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1301.44,
    "end": 1304.16,
    "text": "well, where would be a good place to take this information"
  },
  {
    "start": 1304.32,
    "end": 1304.94,
    "text": "and how to show it?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1305.3,
    "end": 1307.48,
    "text": "But again, the paper's out there."
  },
  {
    "start": 1308.1,
    "end": 1309.22,
    "text": "So people can"
  },
  {
    "start": 1309.22,
    "end": 1310.3,
    "text": "pick that up"
  },
  {
    "start": 1310.3,
    "end": 1312.12,
    "text": "and take it to their own HR department,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1312.3,
    "end": 1314.36,
    "text": "their own recruitment people, their managers,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1314.88,
    "end": 1316.18,
    "text": "and start the conversation,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1316.42,
    "end": 1316.82,
    "text": "I think."
  },
  {
    "start": 1317.06,
    "end": 1318.78,
    "text": "- Yeah, I think it's a very important part"
  },
  {
    "start": 1318.78,
    "end": 1321.7,
    "text": "to get future proof IT"
  },
  {
    "start": 1321.7,
    "end": 1322.38,
    "text": "departments"
  },
  {
    "start": 1322.48,
    "end": 1323.34,
    "text": "and software"
  },
  {
    "start": 1323.34,
    "end": 1324.08,
    "text": "developer and"
  },
  {
    "start": 1324.08,
    "end": 1324.3,
    "text": "testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1326.38,
    "end": 1329.32,
    "text": "Yeah, Isabel, thank you very much for joining the show"
  },
  {
    "start": 1329.36,
    "end": 1331.14,
    "text": "and tell about your work here."
  },
  {
    "start": 1331.5,
    "end": 1333.38,
    "text": "I think it's very, very interesting"
  },
  {
    "start": 1333.86,
    "end": 1337.98,
    "text": "and it opens up the stereotypes we have sometimes"
  },
  {
    "start": 1338.06,
    "end": 1341.26,
    "text": "in our head and with your survey,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1341.26,
    "end": 1345.96,
    "text": "you give now a fact-based evaluation of this."
  },
  {
    "start": 1346.68,
    "end": 1347.78,
    "text": "So thank you very much."
  },
  {
    "start": 1348.18,
    "end": 1351.62,
    "text": "Oh, well, my pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me because"
  },
  {
    "start": 1353.4,
    "end": 1357.48,
    "text": "I'm really delighted because I want to get the word out there. So,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1357.67,
    "end": 1358.34,
    "text": "thank you so much"
  },
  {
    "start": 1358.34,
    "end": 1358.82,
    "text": "for taking"
  },
  {
    "start": 1358.82,
    "end": 1360.0,
    "text": "time to talk with me."
  },
  {
    "start": 1360.32,
    "end": 1362.7,
    "text": "Thank you too. Thank you. Then have a good time here."
  },
  {
    "start": 1363.36,
    "end": 1365.1,
    "text": "Will do. And you. Thanks. Bye now."
  }
]