[
  {
    "start": 1.119,
    "end": 6.88,
    "text": "Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed, the podcast for testers, developers and software"
  },
  {
    "start": 6.98,
    "end": 9.58,
    "text": "makers who live quality as an attitude."
  },
  {
    "start": 10.5,
    "end": 16.7,
    "text": "Get fresh ideas and sharp insights to grow your mindset, to learn new methods and to"
  },
  {
    "start": 16.78,
    "end": 19.36,
    "text": "drive real change in how we build software."
  },
  {
    "start": 20.08,
    "end": 22.94,
    "text": "software and better teams for a better world."
  },
  {
    "start": 32.439,
    "end": 36.76,
    "text": "Hi I'm Richie, software quality coach, keynote speaker and author."
  },
  {
    "start": 37.6,
    "end": 39.9,
    "text": "My guest today is Dmitrij Nikolajev."
  },
  {
    "start": 40.65,
    "end": 46.48,
    "text": "He has spent his career in test automation, requirements engineering and IT project management."
  },
  {
    "start": 47.28,
    "end": 52.18,
    "text": "He's the head of business unit at InSoft, where he supports testing teams and ensures"
  },
  {
    "start": 52.18,
    "end": 54.78,
    "text": "the delivery of high-quality IT services."
  },
  {
    "start": 55.33,
    "end": 60.66,
    "text": "At the same time, he lectures on software testing at Vilnius University in Lithuania,"
  },
  {
    "start": 61.3,
    "end": 65.6,
    "text": "preparing students with both academic knowledge and real-world skills."
  },
  {
    "start": 66.26,
    "end": 70.14,
    "text": "He's one of those people who connects industry and education."
  },
  {
    "start": 71.35,
    "end": 76.4,
    "text": "In this episode, we talked about what it takes to teach software testing to the next generation."
  },
  {
    "start": 76.92,
    "end": 83.4,
    "text": "Why does he teach performance testing and automation before he even talks about test plans?"
  },
  {
    "start": 84.46,
    "end": 89.62,
    "text": "What happens when students use AI tools like ChatGPT to write code?"
  },
  {
    "start": 89.94,
    "end": 91.68,
    "text": "And is it really a bad thing?"
  },
  {
    "start": 93.2,
    "end": 99.4,
    "text": "And how do you get 120 students to care about software quality at 9 o'clock in the morning?"
  },
  {
    "start": 99.98,
    "end": 108.62,
    "text": "Mitri shared now how he redesigned a university course to be more hands-on, more relevant, and even more engaging."
  },
  {
    "start": 109.79,
    "end": 120.34,
    "text": "He talked about blending theory with tools like Selenium and Postman, running practical labs with real test cases, and building motivation step by step."
  },
  {
    "start": 120.92,
    "end": 127.74,
    "text": "We also explored how to make testing meaningful for the test students, for the teams and for"
  },
  {
    "start": 127.82,
    "end": 129.179,
    "text": "the future of our industry."
  },
  {
    "start": 129.78,
    "end": 131.6,
    "text": "So now enjoy the episode."
  },
  {
    "start": 132.56,
    "end": 134.94,
    "text": "Hello Dmitrij, nice to have you on the show here."
  },
  {
    "start": 135.58,
    "end": 137.46,
    "text": "Hello Richie, I'm happy to be here."
  },
  {
    "start": 138.34,
    "end": 143.0,
    "text": "Yeah, it's a great pleasure for me that you are joining the podcast here."
  },
  {
    "start": 143.66,
    "end": 151.58,
    "text": "We met last time in Dubai at the ISTQB GA and now we are here online in this podcast."
  },
  {
    "start": 152.4,
    "end": 158.6,
    "text": "And we just had in the preparation of this podcast, you have so many topics we can talk"
  },
  {
    "start": 158.72,
    "end": 161.62,
    "text": "about, so we have to decide what we are talking about."
  },
  {
    "start": 162.34,
    "end": 167.92,
    "text": "But I think it's good to focus on your work, which has a milestone."
  },
  {
    "start": 168.38,
    "end": 171.94,
    "text": "Yesterday, what you said, it's your work at the university."
  },
  {
    "start": 172.18,
    "end": 180.08,
    "text": "So just tell us, what are you doing that and how does this belong to software quality and"
  },
  {
    "start": 180.08,
    "end": 180.42,
    "text": "testing?"
  },
  {
    "start": 182.6,
    "end": 185.04,
    "text": "Well, I will make a little step back."
  },
  {
    "start": 186.31,
    "end": 192.5,
    "text": "As I like to joke, I have a work that feeds me and I work for a private company."
  },
  {
    "start": 193.38,
    "end": 199.42,
    "text": "I have a lot of community work, which is related to association of software testers in Lithuania."
  },
  {
    "start": 201.1,
    "end": 204.24,
    "text": "We have a local chapter for ISTQB, so that's community work."
  },
  {
    "start": 204.72,
    "end": 207.92,
    "text": "And university, I would rate it somewhere in the middle."
  },
  {
    "start": 209.02,
    "end": 214.2,
    "text": "It is something that you get a compensation for, but not something that would allow you"
  },
  {
    "start": 214.2,
    "end": 214.82,
    "text": "to survive."
  },
  {
    "start": 214.96,
    "end": 218.72,
    "text": "So it's something in the middle, like giving back to the community."
  },
  {
    "start": 219.12,
    "end": 222.36,
    "text": "And actually, formally, it's a paid work."
  },
  {
    "start": 224.38,
    "end": 230.3,
    "text": "So yeah, the university, I've been teaching software testing for three years."
  },
  {
    "start": 233.08,
    "end": 241.86,
    "text": "My kind of story how I got there, actually by accident, one of my colleagues from the"
  },
  {
    "start": 241.92,
    "end": 243.38,
    "text": "partner company reached out."
  },
  {
    "start": 243.48,
    "end": 249.38,
    "text": "He's also teaching at the university and he said that the university has a big issue to"
  },
  {
    "start": 249.18,
    "end": 257.62,
    "text": "find a testing lecturer. And they were even considering to take out the course. When I"
  },
  {
    "start": 257.62,
    "end": 263.14,
    "text": "heard this, I thought, \"Oh, oh my God, it cannot happen. I will not allow it.\" You know,"
  },
  {
    "start": 263.3,
    "end": 272.2,
    "text": "it needs to keep going. And that's the course, quite big and popular. It's called Software"
  },
  {
    "start": 272.34,
    "end": 277.159,
    "text": "Engineering Course at the oldest university, Vilnius University, Faculty of Mathematics"
  },
  {
    "start": 277.16,
    "end": 283.12,
    "text": "and informatics. So I've stepped in to basically save it and now doing it for"
  },
  {
    "start": 283.2,
    "end": 290.84,
    "text": "three years. I'm lucky because I have to do it only for the spring semester."
  },
  {
    "start": 292.56,
    "end": 296.72,
    "text": "Otherwise it would take too much time and I wouldn't probably be able to"
  },
  {
    "start": 296.86,
    "end": 305.079,
    "text": "afford it. But since it's just five months I can cope with it. And yeah, this"
  },
  {
    "start": 305.08,
    "end": 308.78,
    "text": "This year it was also a lot of hard work."
  },
  {
    "start": 309.04,
    "end": 310.12,
    "text": "The testing world is changing."
  },
  {
    "start": 310.12,
    "end": 317.02,
    "text": "You have to keep the course up to date all the time, update it based on the feedback,"
  },
  {
    "start": 317.4,
    "end": 324.5,
    "text": "update it based on the updates in the software testing world, different software we're using"
  },
  {
    "start": 324.7,
    "end": 325.28,
    "text": "for testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 326.08,
    "end": 330.3,
    "text": "And this year, that was the record group, 120 students."
  },
  {
    "start": 330.95,
    "end": 331.82,
    "text": ">> Oh, great."
  },
  {
    "start": 331.82,
    "end": 333.08,
    "text": ">> Yeah, it's a big audience."
  },
  {
    "start": 333.2,
    "end": 336.16,
    "text": "Well, at least I feel like it's a big one."
  },
  {
    "start": 336.78,
    "end": 337.38,
    "text": "(laughing)"
  },
  {
    "start": 338.48,
    "end": 342.76,
    "text": "- And what are the components of the software testing"
  },
  {
    "start": 343.66,
    "end": 346.26,
    "text": "processes and all the stuff like test planning"
  },
  {
    "start": 346.4,
    "end": 348.08,
    "text": "and the test levels and test types?"
  },
  {
    "start": 349.3,
    "end": 351.4,
    "text": "Five months is not a long time."
  },
  {
    "start": 351.84,
    "end": 354.46,
    "text": "So how do you composite it?"
  },
  {
    "start": 355.08,
    "end": 359.94,
    "text": "- Well, my opinion, ideally, I would love to see one day,"
  },
  {
    "start": 362.32,
    "end": 366.18,
    "text": "let's say, a full bachelor program on software testing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 366.38,
    "end": 371.12,
    "text": "because you can study it for four years"
  },
  {
    "start": 371.42,
    "end": 375.76,
    "text": "if there is a curriculum defined particularly"
  },
  {
    "start": 375.76,
    "end": 376.6,
    "text": "for software testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 376.76,
    "end": 378.8,
    "text": "Plus, as a software tester, I think"
  },
  {
    "start": 378.8,
    "end": 384.66,
    "text": "you have to know everything in between and nearby,"
  },
  {
    "start": 384.78,
    "end": 388.94,
    "text": "like requirements engineering, architecture, development,"
  },
  {
    "start": 389.12,
    "end": 396.96,
    "text": "All these things really complement the software testing activities for testers to be really"
  },
  {
    "start": 397.26,
    "end": 399.1,
    "text": "universal, all-rounders."
  },
  {
    "start": 400.12,
    "end": 404.3,
    "text": "But I have only the luxury to teach it for five months."
  },
  {
    "start": 405.42,
    "end": 417.1,
    "text": "And when I joined the university, I had to actually modify the course quite a lot."
  },
  {
    "start": 417.4,
    "end": 426.5,
    "text": "Indeed, it had a lot of soft stuff, like, you know, students had to practice, write"
  },
  {
    "start": 426.58,
    "end": 428.24,
    "text": "test cases, test plans."
  },
  {
    "start": 430.14,
    "end": 435.4,
    "text": "I've realized that, you know, there are some students who are actually software testers"
  },
  {
    "start": 435.58,
    "end": 435.98,
    "text": "already."
  },
  {
    "start": 436.32,
    "end": 438.42,
    "text": "They, you know, that's a third year students."
  },
  {
    "start": 440.03,
    "end": 445.2,
    "text": "The stats vary, but one third or one half of them already have some sort of IT jobs,"
  },
  {
    "start": 446.32,
    "end": 453.96,
    "text": "time, full time, and some of them are software testers, but majority are still moving toward"
  },
  {
    "start": 455.16,
    "end": 461.32,
    "text": "the programmer's careers, maybe some different IT roles, but they are software engineers"
  },
  {
    "start": 461.94,
    "end": 462.16,
    "text": "mainly."
  },
  {
    "start": 462.9,
    "end": 469.32,
    "text": "And I had to adjust specifically to catch their interest."
  },
  {
    "start": 469.78,
    "end": 472.74,
    "text": "If I would ask them, go ahead and start writing test plans."
  },
  {
    "start": 473.24,
    "end": 476.4,
    "text": "I mean, I cannot ask a junior to write the test plan."
  },
  {
    "start": 477.439,
    "end": 479.3,
    "text": "Well, what would be the added value?"
  },
  {
    "start": 479.82,
    "end": 484.22,
    "text": "What I tell them is, here are the standards that"
  },
  {
    "start": 484.66,
    "end": 487.62,
    "text": "define what's the test plan and provide examples."
  },
  {
    "start": 487.74,
    "end": 490.96,
    "text": "And if you would find yourself as a junior in a situation"
  },
  {
    "start": 491.08,
    "end": 492.66,
    "text": "where you would have to come up with one,"
  },
  {
    "start": 493.46,
    "end": 497.64,
    "text": "well, you can try to reuse something that standards offer."
  },
  {
    "start": 498.74,
    "end": 501.22,
    "text": "But still, it's going to be context dependent, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 502.24,
    "end": 505.9,
    "text": "So I've adjusted the course trying to really balance"
  },
  {
    "start": 506.18,
    "end": 509.86,
    "text": "between the theory and practical application."
  },
  {
    "start": 511.36,
    "end": 514.599,
    "text": "So from the practice, I'm a big fan of automation,"
  },
  {
    "start": 514.71,
    "end": 520.3,
    "text": "as you already saw my presentation on Alliance"
  },
  {
    "start": 520.4,
    "end": 524.2,
    "text": "for Quality Conference."
  },
  {
    "start": 526.2,
    "end": 529.92,
    "text": "So we've-- actually, I have a team there, not just solo."
  },
  {
    "start": 530.92,
    "end": 534.32,
    "text": "I have some teammates and one person from other companies."
  },
  {
    "start": 534.56,
    "end": 536.9,
    "text": "It's teamwork that we came up with this course."
  },
  {
    "start": 537.36,
    "end": 541.46,
    "text": "So we have automation classes where people need to test,"
  },
  {
    "start": 542.32,
    "end": 544.96,
    "text": "students need to write automation scripts."
  },
  {
    "start": 545.44,
    "end": 549.66,
    "text": "And that's how they got introduced to what is a test case."
  },
  {
    "start": 550.24,
    "end": 551.72,
    "text": "And you would have to automate it."
  },
  {
    "start": 552.02,
    "end": 554.12,
    "text": "Well, once I presented on the slides,"
  },
  {
    "start": 554.26,
    "end": 558.18,
    "text": "that's just a theory, but you have to get hands on,"
  },
  {
    "start": 558.28,
    "end": 559.2,
    "text": "get your hands dirty, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 560.52,
    "end": 565.02,
    "text": "So they are presented with test cases and they try to automate it."
  },
  {
    "start": 565.46,
    "end": 569.22,
    "text": "And they are challenged with different situations."
  },
  {
    "start": 571.31,
    "end": 574.14,
    "text": "They need to set up an orchestration for it."
  },
  {
    "start": 574.51,
    "end": 581.2,
    "text": "So we follow quite, quite sophisticated things for juniors to get acquainted."
  },
  {
    "start": 581.84,
    "end": 583.28,
    "text": "Then we go with performance testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 583.8,
    "end": 585.82,
    "text": "This is something I love in particular."
  },
  {
    "start": 587.72,
    "end": 591.84,
    "text": "from my, you know, that's kind of, you know, the break the things mentality."
  },
  {
    "start": 592.04,
    "end": 593.76,
    "text": "But again, you need to plan it."
  },
  {
    "start": 594.15,
    "end": 596.16,
    "text": "You have to have operational profiles."
  },
  {
    "start": 596.19,
    "end": 601.22,
    "text": "You have to have monitoring, not just, you know, break the stuff and what does it tell us?"
  },
  {
    "start": 601.34,
    "end": 601.5,
    "text": "Right."
  },
  {
    "start": 601.5,
    "end": 604.08,
    "text": "We need to find the weakest links, et cetera."
  },
  {
    "start": 604.24,
    "end": 607.58,
    "text": "So that's, that's a second part of the practical aspect."
  },
  {
    "start": 608.22,
    "end": 612.02,
    "text": "The third one is APIs, testing APIs."
  },
  {
    "start": 614.2,
    "end": 617.6,
    "text": "and what's more than frameworks are using."
  },
  {
    "start": 618.15,
    "end": 620.48,
    "text": "So we're testing REST APIs a lot."
  },
  {
    "start": 621.38,
    "end": 624.5,
    "text": "Plus we're doing some security testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 625.37,
    "end": 628.26,
    "text": "I would say limited, but there is all of us"
  },
  {
    "start": 629.459,
    "end": 634.26,
    "text": "WebGoat project and we play around with this practically."
  },
  {
    "start": 635.92,
    "end": 638.92,
    "text": "So to kind of summarize it,"
  },
  {
    "start": 640.1,
    "end": 643.46,
    "text": "before I've started teaching software testing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 643.56,
    "end": 648.58,
    "text": "I've worked as a tester for a long time, but I was also, I had a hobby."
  },
  {
    "start": 651.639,
    "end": 658.38,
    "text": "I had a dog, unfortunately already tell it in the past, but I had a dog and I was"
  },
  {
    "start": 658.62,
    "end": 660.12,
    "text": "deeply involved in obedience training."
  },
  {
    "start": 661.34,
    "end": 669.599,
    "text": "And I've learned the thing that you have to reward the dog and really how to say"
  },
  {
    "start": 671.2,
    "end": 672.52,
    "text": "reward for"
  },
  {
    "start": 674.24,
    "end": 677.3,
    "text": "Good actions to kind of positive confirmation"
  },
  {
    "start": 678.8,
    "end": 680.98,
    "text": "And I apply the same principles"
  },
  {
    "start": 682.42,
    "end": 683.62,
    "text": "in my teaching"
  },
  {
    "start": 684.5,
    "end": 687.8,
    "text": "because the complexity of exercises increases gradually"
  },
  {
    "start": 688.64,
    "end": 693.8,
    "text": "And when the students go to the first lab exercises, they really score this"
  },
  {
    "start": 694.22,
    "end": 699.56,
    "text": "Part portion of of the points really easy and they like oh really I already get some points. I said yes"
  },
  {
    "start": 700.0,
    "end": 703.12,
    "text": "Next time they come, they already made a few steps forward,"
  },
  {
    "start": 703.46,
    "end": 706.48,
    "text": "then they build on top and that becomes complex."
  },
  {
    "start": 707.02,
    "end": 711.14,
    "text": "And some might even give up, they don't want to go for the highest score."
  },
  {
    "start": 711.66,
    "end": 713.74,
    "text": "But that's the idea I'm applying."
  },
  {
    "start": 714.44,
    "end": 717.92,
    "text": "Yeah, I think it's a very interesting approach that you go"
  },
  {
    "start": 718.47,
    "end": 723.14,
    "text": "via the perspective of such a pragmatic, practical way with test automation and"
  },
  {
    "start": 723.2,
    "end": 727.999,
    "text": "all the non-functional stuff. Because when I often look in"
  },
  {
    "start": 728.0,
    "end": 734.44,
    "text": "universities, this all the theory about more functionality, how to test it, how to write"
  },
  {
    "start": 734.48,
    "end": 740.56,
    "text": "the test plan and so on. And not really if not about non-functional requirements or in"
  },
  {
    "start": 740.68,
    "end": 747.42,
    "text": "any case or just the tooling stuff. And so, so I can really imagine that young people"
  },
  {
    "start": 747.62,
    "end": 753.4,
    "text": "who get into university like it because this is very practical and very state of the art"
  },
  {
    "start": 753.28,
    "end": 756.64,
    "text": "to do some API testing or do some performance testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 756.64,
    "end": 758.08,
    "text": "And so, yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 758.36,
    "end": 763.5,
    "text": "And I don't want to undervalue the importance of theory."
  },
  {
    "start": 764.6,
    "end": 773.96,
    "text": "It's the way I try to pitch it so that it goes along with the practice, that they see the value, they see how stuff works."
  },
  {
    "start": 774.64,
    "end": 780.12,
    "text": "And as we move on, I explain what it is and what it does"
  },
  {
    "start": 780.12,
    "end": 783.34,
    "text": "and what's the part in the whole quality assurance"
  },
  {
    "start": 783.44,
    "end": 784.1,
    "text": "testing process."
  },
  {
    "start": 785.36,
    "end": 790.22,
    "text": "This theory catches on, but it's not just sole theory."
  },
  {
    "start": 791.16,
    "end": 795.26,
    "text": "And I was looking at it, first of all, students need"
  },
  {
    "start": 795.26,
    "end": 796.46,
    "text": "to be interested in it."
  },
  {
    "start": 797.52,
    "end": 798.76,
    "text": "And there needs to be engagement,"
  },
  {
    "start": 799.18,
    "end": 800.74,
    "text": "otherwise it will not be interesting to me."
  },
  {
    "start": 802.04,
    "end": 805.38,
    "text": "And second thing, what I was trying to achieve,"
  },
  {
    "start": 805.8,
    "end": 812.38,
    "text": "I was trying to make them actually take away"
  },
  {
    "start": 812.5,
    "end": 814.16,
    "text": "from that course as much as possible"
  },
  {
    "start": 814.36,
    "end": 817.4,
    "text": "so that they would be quality aware,"
  },
  {
    "start": 818.06,
    "end": 820.7,
    "text": "not just, you know, sleeping during the lectures."
  },
  {
    "start": 820.8,
    "end": 823.86,
    "text": "I mean, come on, these guys are 21."
  },
  {
    "start": 825.44,
    "end": 827.9,
    "text": "Literally, it's hard to keep their attention"
  },
  {
    "start": 828.76,
    "end": 830.48,
    "text": "for two academic hours."
  },
  {
    "start": 830.64,
    "end": 831.84,
    "text": "it's one and a half hours."
  },
  {
    "start": 833.1,
    "end": 836.7,
    "text": "They just lose the focus after an hour, usually."
  },
  {
    "start": 837.12,
    "end": 838.5,
    "text": "Well, you can just sense it."
  },
  {
    "start": 838.67,
    "end": 839.72,
    "text": "You just look in their eyes."
  },
  {
    "start": 839.78,
    "end": 843.32,
    "text": "And if you just go ahead, like, okay, I'll do my theory."
  },
  {
    "start": 843.86,
    "end": 844.46,
    "text": "That doesn't work."
  },
  {
    "start": 844.47,
    "end": 846.72,
    "text": "I play games with them, honestly."
  },
  {
    "start": 846.8,
    "end": 849.2,
    "text": "I mean, if I see that they're losing engagement,"
  },
  {
    "start": 849.91,
    "end": 852.72,
    "text": "I can stop and I say, okay, let's solve the puzzle."
  },
  {
    "start": 853.96,
    "end": 854.68,
    "text": "I'm challenging you."
  },
  {
    "start": 854.74,
    "end": 856.44,
    "text": "And I give them the puzzle to solve."
  },
  {
    "start": 856.68,
    "end": 859.08,
    "text": "And sometimes it can be a physical puzzle."
  },
  {
    "start": 859.48,
    "end": 867.02,
    "text": "It can be just a puzzle on a slide, and we try to play around with it to keep their engagement"
  },
  {
    "start": 867.02,
    "end": 867.54,
    "text": "and focus."
  },
  {
    "start": 868.18,
    "end": 868.92,
    "text": "That's great."
  },
  {
    "start": 869.44,
    "end": 873.72,
    "text": "And you said you use a lot of tools and frameworks for the practical stuff you have to."
  },
  {
    "start": 874.56,
    "end": 879.6,
    "text": "So if you do API testing or some performance testing or test automation, which tools are"
  },
  {
    "start": 879.6,
    "end": 880.08,
    "text": "you using?"
  },
  {
    "start": 880.86,
    "end": 883.98,
    "text": "Which frameworks are typical for you?"
  },
  {
    "start": 886.44,
    "end": 892.74,
    "text": "For API testing, we're using Postman, and we've been using Google services."
  },
  {
    "start": 894.94,
    "end": 897.28,
    "text": "That's the typical environment for automation."
  },
  {
    "start": 899.6,
    "end": 906.1,
    "text": "We've decided to go ahead with good, old, classical, and nevertheless still very popular"
  },
  {
    "start": 906.26,
    "end": 908.7,
    "text": "Selenium, Selenium WebDriver."
  },
  {
    "start": 911.16,
    "end": 916.84,
    "text": "at the same time, we do not, well, we kind of say that let's use Selenium."
  },
  {
    "start": 917.04,
    "end": 925.1,
    "text": "What we cannot force students to do that. But the background of the team that I'm"
  },
  {
    "start": 925.16,
    "end": 932.0,
    "text": "working with is from that stack. And we say that you can actually do it with any"
  },
  {
    "start": 932.44,
    "end": 939.159,
    "text": "stack you want, but we would be able to help you more while you progress and face"
  },
  {
    "start": 939.16,
    "end": 945.7,
    "text": "some unusual situations, if you use the stack that we prefer because we have more expertise"
  },
  {
    "start": 946.52,
    "end": 953.62,
    "text": "with it. And we typically advise, again, based on our background, go ahead with Selenium and Java,"
  },
  {
    "start": 954.14,
    "end": 959.12,
    "text": "but you can, you know, well, we try to still deviate towards Selenium, but they can use Java,"
  },
  {
    "start": 959.32,
    "end": 966.279,
    "text": "they can use.NET, they can use Python, Ruby, and some of them actually do that. They select IDE of"
  },
  {
    "start": 966.28,
    "end": 970.58,
    "text": "of their choice, Visual Studio, IntelliJ, Eclipse,"
  },
  {
    "start": 970.65,
    "end": 973.36,
    "text": "we can use free Eclipse, it's a free tool,"
  },
  {
    "start": 973.7,
    "end": 974.44,
    "text": "we're fine with that."
  },
  {
    "start": 975.1,
    "end": 977.2,
    "text": "But eventually they have flexibility"
  },
  {
    "start": 977.23,
    "end": 979.6,
    "text": "to choose the tooling in some cases."
  },
  {
    "start": 980.44,
    "end": 982.76,
    "text": "- Okay, and how do you deal,"
  },
  {
    "start": 983.12,
    "end": 986.64,
    "text": "when there's so young people there and students,"
  },
  {
    "start": 987.28,
    "end": 991.739,
    "text": "they nearly have their whole university time"
  },
  {
    "start": 991.74,
    "end": 996.28,
    "text": "another tool with them like GVT and all the AI stuff,"
  },
  {
    "start": 996.42,
    "end": 1000.8,
    "text": "which they are used to have since two, three years now."
  },
  {
    "start": 1001.64,
    "end": 1005.78,
    "text": "How do you get that involved or do you strict say,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1005.9,
    "end": 1008.74,
    "text": "no, this is not the way because coding is easy"
  },
  {
    "start": 1008.86,
    "end": 1010.48,
    "text": "with all this stuff now."
  },
  {
    "start": 1010.88,
    "end": 1013.16,
    "text": "So how do you deal with that with your students?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1013.22,
    "end": 1016.62,
    "text": "I have talked about that or do you discard it,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1016.76,
    "end": 1018.06,
    "text": "just block it?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1019.42,
    "end": 1021.44,
    "text": "Richard, that's an excellent question."
  },
  {
    "start": 1023.42,
    "end": 1026.8,
    "text": "You know, well, first of all, as I mentioned,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1026.939,
    "end": 1027.939,
    "text": "I'm teaching for three years."
  },
  {
    "start": 1027.939,
    "end": 1029.459,
    "text": "And you've mentioned for the past two years."
  },
  {
    "start": 1029.839,
    "end": 1033.6,
    "text": "So my first year, students were not"
  },
  {
    "start": 1033.8,
    "end": 1037.0,
    "text": "using any chart GPTs or deep seek or any tools like that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1037.0,
    "end": 1039.4,
    "text": "We're not available to the public yet."
  },
  {
    "start": 1041.8,
    "end": 1044.0,
    "text": "And well, they were Googling, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1044.199,
    "end": 1047.38,
    "text": "They were progressing with their speed."
  },
  {
    "start": 1048.1,
    "end": 1052.4,
    "text": "And the next year, there was chat GPT booming."
  },
  {
    "start": 1053.96,
    "end": 1057.04,
    "text": "I don't remember which version it was back then."
  },
  {
    "start": 1057.78,
    "end": 1062.4,
    "text": "And what I have noticed, that the students"
  },
  {
    "start": 1062.4,
    "end": 1064.82,
    "text": "are progressing through exercises much quicker."
  },
  {
    "start": 1066.5,
    "end": 1068.48,
    "text": "And well, there were funny stories."
  },
  {
    "start": 1068.68,
    "end": 1069.98,
    "text": "Sometimes they did just copy-paste."
  },
  {
    "start": 1070.74,
    "end": 1074.44,
    "text": "But I mean, as I make jokes, that's"
  },
  {
    "start": 1074.5,
    "end": 1076.88,
    "text": "the main principle of programming even these days,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1077.98,
    "end": 1080.06,
    "text": "just copy paste some snippets,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1080.52,
    "end": 1082.5,
    "text": "but they are progressing much quicker."
  },
  {
    "start": 1082.96,
    "end": 1089.28,
    "text": "And I don't think it makes sense to really combat it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1089.5,
    "end": 1091.72,
    "text": "I think this is a new reality we have to face."
  },
  {
    "start": 1092.32,
    "end": 1096.44,
    "text": "And I tell the students, I even encourage them to use it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1097.04,
    "end": 1100.56,
    "text": "They're okay to use it, but just don't blindly copy it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1101.56,
    "end": 1103.96,
    "text": "Really check what it does, but that's a tool"
  },
  {
    "start": 1104.08,
    "end": 1106.6,
    "text": "they need to learn how to use."
  },
  {
    "start": 1107.6,
    "end": 1110.54,
    "text": "There are even few students who do not use it on purpose."
  },
  {
    "start": 1112.36,
    "end": 1114.7,
    "text": "There are even people who think like that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1116.52,
    "end": 1120.76,
    "text": "So three years ago, my first group,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1121.47,
    "end": 1122.88,
    "text": "they did not use chat GPT."
  },
  {
    "start": 1122.96,
    "end": 1124.3,
    "text": "They were just after the COVID."
  },
  {
    "start": 1124.92,
    "end": 1126.32,
    "text": "That's a separate story."
  },
  {
    "start": 1126.86,
    "end": 1130.28,
    "text": "But later on, they're all using chat GPT."
  },
  {
    "start": 1130.56,
    "end": 1134.599,
    "text": "And then we just increased the complexity accordingly"
  },
  {
    "start": 1134.6,
    "end": 1139.86,
    "text": "so that the load actually matches what they are capable."
  },
  {
    "start": 1141.32,
    "end": 1142.08,
    "text": "- Okay, I understand."
  },
  {
    "start": 1144.0,
    "end": 1148.64,
    "text": "So when I think of a young student"
  },
  {
    "start": 1148.69,
    "end": 1151.34,
    "text": "who is going to programming and all this stuff,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1151.42,
    "end": 1154.84,
    "text": "and then Dimitri stands there and says,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1155.4,
    "end": 1157.74,
    "text": "\"Okay, now you have to test this and that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1157.82,
    "end": 1161.78,
    "text": "\"with test automation and API testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1162.08,
    "end": 1167.3,
    "text": "And how do you get the \"why\" to the students?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1167.44,
    "end": 1168.94,
    "text": "Why should they test?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1169.14,
    "end": 1170.7,
    "text": "Why should they learn to test?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1170.8,
    "end": 1174.32,
    "text": "What are your arguments for them that they are interested in?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1176.46,
    "end": 1181.1,
    "text": "Well, I do an introduction."
  },
  {
    "start": 1181.56,
    "end": 1183.54,
    "text": "Actually, the course starts, and what I really like,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1184.54,
    "end": 1189.199,
    "text": "I have taken a lot of brilliant thoughts and ideas from"
  },
  {
    "start": 1189.2,
    "end": 1196.5,
    "text": "IST could be syllabus and the principles of testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1197.24,
    "end": 1202.52,
    "text": "And all these principles of testing are reinforced with the examples."
  },
  {
    "start": 1202.8,
    "end": 1205.54,
    "text": "Examples are coming from my personal experience."
  },
  {
    "start": 1206.58,
    "end": 1210.22,
    "text": "It's soon going to be almost 20 years in IT and software testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1211.3,
    "end": 1218.22,
    "text": "Plus students also do their reports. They can earn one point toward the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1217.92,
    "end": 1223.98,
    "text": "exam if they do reports in groups. And I have reports, you know, like I come across"
  },
  {
    "start": 1224.36,
    "end": 1228.56,
    "text": "some interesting tool or interesting concept, I add it as a topic, students can"
  },
  {
    "start": 1228.58,
    "end": 1232.86,
    "text": "also propose their own topic from their experience, but typically it's like a"
  },
  {
    "start": 1232.86,
    "end": 1243.759,
    "text": "little research. And I always include topics, you know, some easy topics. I have"
  },
  {
    "start": 1243.76,
    "end": 1248.3,
    "text": "the ratings, complexity ratings for the topics. But these are topics like, you"
  },
  {
    "start": 1248.3,
    "end": 1256.6,
    "text": "know, do a fun report about the biggest failures in software industry or biggest"
  },
  {
    "start": 1256.74,
    "end": 1264.54,
    "text": "failures that cost, you know, strategies or aircraft engineering software"
  },
  {
    "start": 1264.64,
    "end": 1272.499,
    "text": "failures or space flights, etc. Or financial sector, you know, or stories"
  },
  {
    "start": 1272.5,
    "end": 1276.28,
    "text": "from Lithuania and they just search, they present,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1277.02,
    "end": 1280.74,
    "text": "and that really gives, how to say,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1283.02,
    "end": 1284.76,
    "text": "important component of the awareness"
  },
  {
    "start": 1285.02,
    "end": 1286.42,
    "text": "why software testing is important"
  },
  {
    "start": 1286.72,
    "end": 1289.8,
    "text": "because there were so many failures"
  },
  {
    "start": 1290.0,
    "end": 1292.76,
    "text": "that cost a lot of money, a lot of lives,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1293.16,
    "end": 1295.12,
    "text": "and a lot of things can go wrong."
  },
  {
    "start": 1295.26,
    "end": 1296.44,
    "text": "That's why you need to test."
  },
  {
    "start": 1298.22,
    "end": 1299.92,
    "text": "I think that it's just, you know,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1300.06,
    "end": 1305.02,
    "text": "in a simple human manner to explain by storytelling, by examples."
  },
  {
    "start": 1305.84,
    "end": 1309.8,
    "text": "Yeah, and they are researching for their own this example,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1310.0,
    "end": 1313.74,
    "text": "so they have a much more relation to it than just when you say it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1314.26,
    "end": 1319.8,
    "text": "Yeah, and it can be even, you know, they dig in into some technical work,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1320.6,
    "end": 1324.56,
    "text": "technical aspects, like what was exactly the cause of the failure,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1325.12,
    "end": 1329.26,
    "text": "like a floating point number or some conversion between formats,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1329.5,
    "end": 1336.62,
    "text": "and that's why the rocket went sideways and exploded because they forgot that in the US"
  },
  {
    "start": 1336.74,
    "end": 1344.36,
    "text": "and Europe they have different units, right? That type of errors can cause a lot. And I tell the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1344.52,
    "end": 1349.66,
    "text": "students, \"You're doing these reports, presentations, not for me. You're doing these presentations"
  },
  {
    "start": 1350.3,
    "end": 1358.36,
    "text": "for your classmates.\" And that is actually a good thing that they set the bar high themselves."
  },
  {
    "start": 1359.42,
    "end": 1364.16,
    "text": "They want to do a better presentation, they want to perform better than the previous teams."
  },
  {
    "start": 1364.62,
    "end": 1368.74,
    "text": "And there's kind of healthy competition taking place."
  },
  {
    "start": 1369.04,
    "end": 1372.44,
    "text": "And I enjoy these presentations a lot because I learn from it myself."
  },
  {
    "start": 1373.34,
    "end": 1374.78,
    "text": "Yeah, that was my next question."
  },
  {
    "start": 1375.02,
    "end": 1380.6,
    "text": "Do you have new insights if the students present some research of them about software testing"
  },
  {
    "start": 1380.6,
    "end": 1381.18,
    "text": "and quality?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1381.46,
    "end": 1382.18,
    "text": "Oh yeah, absolutely."
  },
  {
    "start": 1382.38,
    "end": 1382.8,
    "text": "Absolutely."
  },
  {
    "start": 1382.98,
    "end": 1384.06,
    "text": "A lot of insights."
  },
  {
    "start": 1384.62,
    "end": 1388.96,
    "text": "I wouldn't be able to research all of the things myself."
  },
  {
    "start": 1390.08,
    "end": 1393.52,
    "text": "There are topics I'm interested in myself in particular,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1394.78,
    "end": 1397.08,
    "text": "things like self-healing and test automation,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1397.7,
    "end": 1401.36,
    "text": "or for instance, in codeless versus code-based approaches."
  },
  {
    "start": 1402.29,
    "end": 1405.52,
    "text": "In my presentation on the last slide,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1405.6,
    "end": 1412.1,
    "text": "I had this thought put out that there are many codeless tools."
  },
  {
    "start": 1412.38,
    "end": 1418.08,
    "text": "And there are some tools that are expensive, but they are extremely user-friendly,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1419.12,
    "end": 1424.66,
    "text": "to the point that you need to do some complex step and you need to add a custom component,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1425.8,
    "end": 1431.78,
    "text": "and you would have to write a JavaScript code to make that custom component do some magic."
  },
  {
    "start": 1432.42,
    "end": 1438.539,
    "text": "And I'm not mentioning the tool on purpose, since I don't want to get into any trouble"
  },
  {
    "start": 1439.82,
    "end": 1445.56,
    "text": "with the big companies, but you know, there is a button like \"use AI assistant to write the code\""
  },
  {
    "start": 1446.36,
    "end": 1451.1,
    "text": "and the students, they are technical students, they are coders themselves, majority, and they say"
  },
  {
    "start": 1451.44,
    "end": 1456.88,
    "text": "\"well, we enjoy to be in control, we enjoy to write the code ourselves, but to think about this"
  },
  {
    "start": 1457.06,
    "end": 1464.72,
    "text": "situation, we have a codeless tool that isn't really codeless, because to solve complex situations,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1464.72,
    "end": 1472.06,
    "text": "we still need to write code. Isn't it like the same thing if I'm writing the code using Selenium,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1472.9,
    "end": 1478.5,
    "text": "Cypress, Playwright? I mean, I can use chat GPT and it writes the code for me,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1478.66,
    "end": 1485.98,
    "text": "so that's also codeless. And I thought, wow, that's a brilliant idea. Because generative AI"
  },
  {
    "start": 1486.18,
    "end": 1492.12,
    "text": "it's actually turned the tables. You don't need to be a super coder anymore, at least, well,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1492.24,
    "end": 1498.04,
    "text": "you probably have to be if you're a top level automator, but things have changed."
  },
  {
    "start": 1498.9,
    "end": 1504.24,
    "text": "Yeah, yeah. But you have to be aware of the things you see there. So it's good to learn"
  },
  {
    "start": 1504.34,
    "end": 1511.0,
    "text": "the coding stuff so that you can evaluate what's the JNI is bringing up there on code base. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1511.94,
    "end": 1519.04,
    "text": "Yeah. Great, Dimitri. This was very interesting, I think, to see how you put this practical stuff"
  },
  {
    "start": 1519.04,
    "end": 1523.64,
    "text": "into this learning environment in your university context."
  },
  {
    "start": 1524.3,
    "end": 1529.1,
    "text": "So if I would be a young boy,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1529.97,
    "end": 1533.06,
    "text": "I would go to your course and learn and study there,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1533.86,
    "end": 1536.88,
    "text": "but I'm an old man, so I'm out now."
  },
  {
    "start": 1539.9,
    "end": 1542.46,
    "text": "Thank you very much that you have been here on the show."
  },
  {
    "start": 1542.52,
    "end": 1547.02,
    "text": "I think we have to do the whole other stuff in later episodes,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1547.04,
    "end": 1552.62,
    "text": "And I think we will because we will meet in Copenhagen, I think, next time in October."
  },
  {
    "start": 1553.04,
    "end": 1557.1,
    "text": "And I will see there and I think we will do another episode there too."
  },
  {
    "start": 1557.88,
    "end": 1561.64,
    "text": "And for the people who are hearing and seeing this episode,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1561.92,
    "end": 1567.1,
    "text": "and if you want to contact Dimitri, all the contact details will be in the show notes available."
  },
  {
    "start": 1567.36,
    "end": 1571.16,
    "text": "So you can contact him and ask him the deep questions you want to know."
  },
  {
    "start": 1572.74,
    "end": 1575.08,
    "text": "So thank you very much, Dimitri, to have you here."
  },
  {
    "start": 1575.08,
    "end": 1575.64,
    "text": "Thank you."
  },
  {
    "start": 1575.64,
    "end": 1577.7,
    "text": "And have a good time."
  },
  {
    "start": 1578.02,
    "end": 1578.38,
    "text": "Thank you."
  },
  {
    "start": 1578.54,
    "end": 1578.7,
    "text": "You too."
  },
  {
    "start": 1578.92,
    "end": 1579.12,
    "text": "Bye bye."
  },
  {
    "start": 1609.22,
    "end": 1610.62,
    "text": "(orchestral music)"
  }
]