[
  {
    "start": 0.999,
    "end": 9.5,
    "text": "Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed, the podcast for testers, developers and software makers who live quality as an attitude."
  },
  {
    "start": 10.4,
    "end": 19.28,
    "text": "Get fresh ideas and sharp insights to grow your mindset, to learn new methods and to drive real change in how we build software."
  },
  {
    "start": 19.66,
    "end": 22.98,
    "text": "Better software and better teams for a better world."
  },
  {
    "start": 32.36,
    "end": 36.82,
    "text": "Hi, I'm Richie, software quality coach, keynote speaker and author."
  },
  {
    "start": 37.6,
    "end": 39.68,
    "text": "My guest today is Maryse Meinen."
  },
  {
    "start": 40.04,
    "end": 45.62,
    "text": "Maryse is a product development coach who blends agile thinking with stoic philosophy."
  },
  {
    "start": 46.41,
    "end": 49.82,
    "text": "She helps teams and organizations become more resilient and"
  },
  {
    "start": 49.78,
    "end": 52.88,
    "text": "sustainable by focusing on what truly matters."
  },
  {
    "start": 53.58,
    "end": 57.96,
    "text": "Her motto is simple but powerful, \"Achieve more with less.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 57.96,
    "end": 63.66,
    "text": "She works with the principles of degrowth and stoicism, helping teams make better use"
  },
  {
    "start": 63.84,
    "end": 65.16,
    "text": "of what they already have."
  },
  {
    "start": 66.2,
    "end": 71.34,
    "text": "And she brings a strong value-based approach to leadership, strategy, and product development."
  },
  {
    "start": 72.5,
    "end": 78.72,
    "text": "In this episode, we talk about stoic principles and how they can shape the way we lead, decide,"
  },
  {
    "start": 78.9,
    "end": 85.18,
    "text": "build better software products. What if you stop measuring success by outcomes"
  },
  {
    "start": 85.32,
    "end": 90.56,
    "text": "and start focusing on decision quality instead? Why does preparing for failure"
  },
  {
    "start": 90.64,
    "end": 97.58,
    "text": "lead to better results, not pessimism? And how does thinking in decades help us"
  },
  {
    "start": 97.68,
    "end": 103.939,
    "text": "make smarter choices today? We explore how ancient stoic wisdom fits perfectly"
  },
  {
    "start": 103.94,
    "end": 110.72,
    "text": "into agile work. Maryse shares practical tools like scenario planning, the 10-10-10 decision rule,"
  },
  {
    "start": 111.06,
    "end": 117.4,
    "text": "and how journaling helps you reflect on your path. This is not theory, it's a mindset for"
  },
  {
    "start": 117.6,
    "end": 124.22,
    "text": "navigating complexity, pressure, and constant change in the tech world. So take your inspiration"
  },
  {
    "start": 124.42,
    "end": 130.76,
    "text": "from this episode and enjoy. Hi Maryse, fine, nice to have you here on my podcast. Yeah, thanks for"
  },
  {
    "start": 130.58,
    "end": 135.92,
    "text": "having me. I'm really excited being here. Yeah, it's great. I enjoyed our pre-call before the"
  },
  {
    "start": 136.22,
    "end": 142.7,
    "text": "conference. It was so, so funny to talk to you and you have such a great topic here on the"
  },
  {
    "start": 143.28,
    "end": 151.9,
    "text": "conference talk and now in the podcast. Because I wrote the abstract, I read the abstract from you"
  },
  {
    "start": 152.08,
    "end": 159.939,
    "text": "and read about the Stoic principles. And I read some books years before from Macaulay from Seneca"
  },
  {
    "start": 159.94,
    "end": 167.14,
    "text": "and dealing with this stoic stuff and to get this in the business context is a great part"
  },
  {
    "start": 167.64,
    "end": 173.16,
    "text": "here now in the podcast. Yeah, well, I'm really happy that you invited me over. You've intrigued"
  },
  {
    "start": 173.22,
    "end": 178.74,
    "text": "me though. So you were intrigued by our pre talk. So what have you been rereading? You've been"
  },
  {
    "start": 178.9,
    "end": 185.459,
    "text": "rereading your old Seneca books? No, no, no, no, I just read the abstract and Seneca is some years"
  },
  {
    "start": 185.38,
    "end": 190.5,
    "text": "ago. Well, still, yeah, it's still valid. It's still beautiful reads. Yeah, nice."
  },
  {
    "start": 191.14,
    "end": 198.24,
    "text": "So now for our podcast auditorium, what is Stoic principles? What is this mindset or this?"
  },
  {
    "start": 199.3,
    "end": 204.4,
    "text": "Well, Stoicism, as you know, and most of your listeners will know, goes back a long time."
  },
  {
    "start": 205.44,
    "end": 212.04,
    "text": "It's a philosophy from, let's say, around, well, the year Christ was born, say around the year"
  },
  {
    "start": 211.86,
    "end": 218.68,
    "text": "Zero. It started a bit earlier and it was, it evolved over time and there's a few names like"
  },
  {
    "start": 218.86,
    "end": 224.86,
    "text": "Seneca you mentioned and there's this emperor Marcus Aurelius who's known as the philosopher"
  },
  {
    "start": 225.22,
    "end": 231.56,
    "text": "king. He was a ruler of what at that time was the biggest empire of the world, the Roman Empire,"
  },
  {
    "start": 232.84,
    "end": 240.78,
    "text": "and he tried to live and rule according to Stoic principles. Now I grew up in grammar school or not"
  },
  {
    "start": 240.58,
    "end": 244.58,
    "text": "I didn't grow up in grammar school, but I was taught in grammar school."
  },
  {
    "start": 245.86,
    "end": 251.28,
    "text": "And so I was in touch with stoicism then. And when my daughter was born,"
  },
  {
    "start": 251.64,
    "end": 256.359,
    "text": "and now almost 13 years ago, I started thinking, well, if I want to live well,"
  },
  {
    "start": 258.14,
    "end": 265.14,
    "text": "behave well, whatever well might be, what do I know and what can I look for,"
  },
  {
    "start": 265.78,
    "end": 268.02,
    "text": "for guiding rules, for guiding principles."
  },
  {
    "start": 269.0,
    "end": 273.68,
    "text": "And then because I was taught in grammar school, I somehow came back to Stoicism."
  },
  {
    "start": 275.3,
    "end": 279.46,
    "text": "So I tried to apply Stoic principles for my personal life."
  },
  {
    "start": 280.34,
    "end": 283.78,
    "text": "Also with this daughter whom I wanted to leave with a better world for all of us."
  },
  {
    "start": 285.52,
    "end": 289.4,
    "text": "And then at one point I thought, well, if this works for my personal life,"
  },
  {
    "start": 290.42,
    "end": 296.3,
    "text": "And if it worked for Marcus Aurelius 2,000 years ago as the emperor of the Roman Empire,"
  },
  {
    "start": 297.68,
    "end": 304.38,
    "text": "and he ruled according to these stoic principles, why can't I start applying this in my work as"
  },
  {
    "start": 304.4,
    "end": 311.62,
    "text": "well? So that's how that came in my work life, it sort of started trickling in my work life."
  },
  {
    "start": 312.6,
    "end": 319.34,
    "text": "And I work as a product owner in infrastructure, and I started taking principles from this stoic"
  },
  {
    "start": 319.3,
    "end": 327.6,
    "text": "philosophy in the daily work I did. So Stoicism evolves around a few values and a few principles"
  },
  {
    "start": 328.98,
    "end": 336.42,
    "text": "and one of the main things I guess is the idea that you don't control as much as you think you do."
  },
  {
    "start": 337.68,
    "end": 342.48,
    "text": "What the Stoics say is well most things are actually outside of your control."
  },
  {
    "start": 343.86,
    "end": 352.44,
    "text": "like other people's opinions, your body, your health, also how things turn out."
  },
  {
    "start": 352.52,
    "end": 357.56,
    "text": "Well a very simple example always is the weather. That's all things that are outside of your control."
  },
  {
    "start": 358.48,
    "end": 364.84,
    "text": "Even if these days we think we as humans control everything, most of the things we don't control."
  },
  {
    "start": 365.74,
    "end": 369.9,
    "text": "So the Stoics say well the only things you can control are the things inside your mind."
  },
  {
    "start": 370.1,
    "end": 375.88,
    "text": "So your perception, how you look at things, what your opinion is, that are matters of choice,"
  },
  {
    "start": 376.2,
    "end": 380.36,
    "text": "things you can actually influence. But all these other things you can't influence."
  },
  {
    "start": 381.26,
    "end": 387.42,
    "text": "And that is a stoic principle, a stoic idea that well you can apply in business life and has big"
  },
  {
    "start": 387.52,
    "end": 400.08,
    "text": "consequences. Of course it touches on Zen, on Buddhism, on philosophies of things you need to"
  },
  {
    "start": 400.08,
    "end": 406.7,
    "text": "this influence on my work life. So that's the inside and outside of your control thing."
  },
  {
    "start": 408.78,
    "end": 415.96,
    "text": "And that's also, there is a stoic principle that's called premeditatio malorum. Not a"
  },
  {
    "start": 416.1,
    "end": 424.12,
    "text": "Latin phrase, it sounds fancy-pansy, but it means as much as bad things will happen. And"
  },
  {
    "start": 424.2,
    "end": 429.28,
    "text": "do think of them on beforehand, do prepare for them. That leads to one of the lessons"
  },
  {
    "start": 429.28,
    "end": 433.1,
    "text": "I sort of formulated stoic lessons for product management."
  },
  {
    "start": 434.14,
    "end": 435.18,
    "text": "Bad things will happen."
  },
  {
    "start": 437.24,
    "end": 440.3,
    "text": "And you can have the foresight of preparing for bad things."
  },
  {
    "start": 440.42,
    "end": 445.2,
    "text": "Like if you plan a wedding day and you plan it in October and imagine you live in Munich,"
  },
  {
    "start": 445.74,
    "end": 448.74,
    "text": "there is a very likely chance that the weather might turn bad."
  },
  {
    "start": 449.28,
    "end": 453.78,
    "text": "Which is fine, but if you don't prepare for a bad weather scenario, that's, well, I would"
  },
  {
    "start": 453.86,
    "end": 455.68,
    "text": "call that not so smart."
  },
  {
    "start": 457.72,
    "end": 461.44,
    "text": "Because you can't control the weather and you can't count on having the luck that it"
  },
  {
    "start": 461.52,
    "end": 463.08,
    "text": "will be a beautiful day after all."
  },
  {
    "start": 464.54,
    "end": 470.5,
    "text": "So I'd say this inside and outside your control and making distinction between the two is"
  },
  {
    "start": 470.54,
    "end": 476.7,
    "text": "a central idea of Stoicism and the idea of okay so the things outside my control I can't"
  },
  {
    "start": 476.7,
    "end": 478.82,
    "text": "control but I can prepare."
  },
  {
    "start": 479.68,
    "end": 483.7,
    "text": "And that's the whole Stoic idea of well make sure that you are prepared for everything"
  },
  {
    "start": 483.78,
    "end": 484.96,
    "text": "life throws at you."
  },
  {
    "start": 485.6,
    "end": 494.14,
    "text": "And if you are prepared, well then you come to the, well another catchy phrase in Latin that goes with Stoicism, it's called \"Amo Fati\"."
  },
  {
    "start": 494.14,
    "end": 498.7,
    "text": "It's the love of your fate. Amo love and fati fatem."
  },
  {
    "start": 500.04,
    "end": 503.78,
    "text": "So not faith as in belief, but fate as in your destiny."
  },
  {
    "start": 504.84,
    "end": 512.3,
    "text": "And what the Stoics say is, well you should love your fate in the sense that you should embrace whatever life throws at you."
  },
  {
    "start": 512.479,
    "end": 518.24,
    "text": "And because sometimes you are in certain circumstances and you can fight the circumstances, but you'd"
  },
  {
    "start": 518.24,
    "end": 523.78,
    "text": "be better off accepting the circumstances and then making the best of, well, the circumstance"
  },
  {
    "start": 523.84,
    "end": 524.159,
    "text": "you're in."
  },
  {
    "start": 525.61,
    "end": 531.28,
    "text": "So that's also very applicable, I guess, in product management because we often focus"
  },
  {
    "start": 531.32,
    "end": 532.0,
    "text": "on outcomes."
  },
  {
    "start": 532.13,
    "end": 534.8,
    "text": "That was of course, the subtitle of my talk here at Aope."
  },
  {
    "start": 535.959,
    "end": 537.46,
    "text": "We focus on outcomes."
  },
  {
    "start": 537.8,
    "end": 543.32,
    "text": "any decent agile coach or scrum master or product person who'll say, yes, we're focusing"
  },
  {
    "start": 543.32,
    "end": 544.04,
    "text": "on outcomes."
  },
  {
    "start": 544.62,
    "end": 545.76,
    "text": "Of course not on outputs."
  },
  {
    "start": 545.76,
    "end": 547.18,
    "text": "I totally agree with that."
  },
  {
    "start": 548.5,
    "end": 557.02,
    "text": "But my three stoic lessons, the first one is rethink outcome because maybe as a stoic"
  },
  {
    "start": 557.14,
    "end": 558.48,
    "text": "say you can't control outcome."
  },
  {
    "start": 558.7,
    "end": 560.68,
    "text": "There is so much that influences outcome."
  },
  {
    "start": 561.12,
    "end": 567.42,
    "text": "So maybe not focus on outcome, but focus on your decision making on how you actually are"
  },
  {
    "start": 567.2,
    "end": 572.88,
    "text": "going to get to this outcome. Rethink your outcome and rethink how you make decisions."
  },
  {
    "start": 573.92,
    "end": 579.88,
    "text": "We tend to make decisions on things that are very much influenced by externalities, so"
  },
  {
    "start": 579.94,
    "end": 587.18,
    "text": "these factors you cannot control. What you could do is take moral values, stoic values,"
  },
  {
    "start": 587.76,
    "end": 596.0,
    "text": "think courage, think justice, think temperance, and these stoic values, you could use them"
  },
  {
    "start": 595.8,
    "end": 599.04,
    "text": "as a sort of moral compass for decision making."
  },
  {
    "start": 599.83,
    "end": 602.68,
    "text": "And that's not something we usually do as product people."
  },
  {
    "start": 603.35,
    "end": 607.46,
    "text": "We think about economic growth and we need more customers and we need more clicks and"
  },
  {
    "start": 607.46,
    "end": 610.34,
    "text": "we need whatever it is, what the circumstances of your product are."
  },
  {
    "start": 613.02,
    "end": 618.76,
    "text": "But while applying these stoic principles to product management, I'd invite people to"
  },
  {
    "start": 619.16,
    "end": 624.68,
    "text": "well, make moral decisions in your product management and focus more on these,"
  },
  {
    "start": 625.46,
    "end": 631.82,
    "text": "well, on this product decision making process than on these actual outcomes, which you cannot influence."
  },
  {
    "start": 632.38,
    "end": 640.44,
    "text": "I think the whole Stoic principles are a very good tool and mindset for today in general,"
  },
  {
    "start": 640.7,
    "end": 648.48,
    "text": "not only for business, but if I look at the society, at our world, at our problems, all of that."
  },
  {
    "start": 648.88,
    "end": 655.8,
    "text": "So use the principle for their own life is very good these days in general."
  },
  {
    "start": 656.4,
    "end": 660.6,
    "text": "And also in this very turbulent, dynamic"
  },
  {
    "start": 661.9,
    "end": 664.94,
    "text": "company settings where we live, where we work, our software engineering"
  },
  {
    "start": 665.18,
    "end": 667.54,
    "text": "is doing everything, it's very complex."
  },
  {
    "start": 668.06,
    "end": 671.12,
    "text": "So I think these principles could help us there"
  },
  {
    "start": 671.42,
    "end": 676.22,
    "text": "in doing the things better for us in the team."
  },
  {
    "start": 676.52,
    "end": 678.4,
    "text": "Yeah. Yeah. I like that you mentioned that."
  },
  {
    "start": 678.44,
    "end": 685.0,
    "text": "Because what I really like in Stoicism as well is that's a very practical philosophy."
  },
  {
    "start": 685.92,
    "end": 689.88,
    "text": "So what does Seneca, Marcus Aurelius and Zeno and Epictetus."
  },
  {
    "start": 689.98,
    "end": 694.92,
    "text": "Epictetus by the way, one of the, well not necessarily founders of Stoicism,"
  },
  {
    "start": 695.08,
    "end": 698.7,
    "text": "but one who evolved Stoicism. He was born in slavery."
  },
  {
    "start": 700.18,
    "end": 704.84,
    "text": "So he's a sort of embodiment of how you can make the best of the situation,"
  },
  {
    "start": 705.04,
    "end": 707.42,
    "text": "your circumstances you were, well in this case, born in."
  },
  {
    "start": 709.12,
    "end": 715.72,
    "text": "But this philosophy of Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus, I know the whole lot, is also very practical."
  },
  {
    "start": 716.42,
    "end": 723.52,
    "text": "They said you don't want to lock yourself up in the monastery or somewhere up on a mountain secluded from life."
  },
  {
    "start": 724.12,
    "end": 726.94,
    "text": "But on the contrary, you want it to be right in the middle of society."
  },
  {
    "start": 727.98,
    "end": 729.3,
    "text": "And they wanted it to be practical."
  },
  {
    "start": 729.5,
    "end": 735.859,
    "text": "There is this famous quote, this catchy phrase from Marcus Aurelius that says"
  },
  {
    "start": 735.86,
    "end": 740.96,
    "text": "Now let's stop talking about being a good man, on how to be a good man and just be one."
  },
  {
    "start": 742.02,
    "end": 746.92,
    "text": "So that is really also something that I like in stoicism that it sort of pulls us down from the"
  },
  {
    "start": 746.98,
    "end": 751.38,
    "text": "clouds and says, well, okay, and now just be here and do your thing."
  },
  {
    "start": 751.66,
    "end": 758.24,
    "text": "Yeah, yeah. So it's very practical. So it's very useful for our, also for our agile mindset,"
  },
  {
    "start": 758.32,
    "end": 762.14,
    "text": "where we want to do things and not to talk and document and all this stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 762.5,
    "end": 774.04,
    "text": "So how can we use these principles specific in our roles in software engineering as a product owner or even a team member?"
  },
  {
    "start": 774.34,
    "end": 780.36,
    "text": "Well, I love that you asked that because I also think the title was for product management."
  },
  {
    "start": 780.66,
    "end": 784.72,
    "text": "We're all product developers, aren't we? We all work together to build products."
  },
  {
    "start": 785.51,
    "end": 788.02,
    "text": "So I think the principles are applicable in any role."
  },
  {
    "start": 788.58,
    "end": 794.48,
    "text": "Well I already mentioned the first one, the rethink, the rethink on outcome."
  },
  {
    "start": 795.43,
    "end": 800.66,
    "text": "So rethink the value we put on outcome because of this, well you can't influence externalities."
  },
  {
    "start": 801.78,
    "end": 807.74,
    "text": "And I already touched upon the second one too, prepare. Be prepared that bad things might happen"
  },
  {
    "start": 807.92,
    "end": 815.34,
    "text": "or even probably will happen. Life is unfortunately unfair and so bad things will happen to you,"
  },
  {
    "start": 815.34,
    "end": 820.94,
    "text": "to me, to anyone, and they can happen. And be prepared for them. I mentioned yesterday in my"
  },
  {
    "start": 821.16,
    "end": 827.38,
    "text": "talk, I could walk out of the room and get a heart attack and die. I have no intention of doing so,"
  },
  {
    "start": 827.48,
    "end": 833.1,
    "text": "but it could happen. And it's not that I would then have enormously bad luck or it would be"
  },
  {
    "start": 833.3,
    "end": 839.74,
    "text": "incredibly unfair. Stuff like that happens. So what can you do is live every moment to the fullest"
  },
  {
    "start": 839.74,
    "end": 846.24,
    "text": "Be there, do something. There is this Yoda quote, \"Don't try, just do.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 846.24,
    "end": 849.58,
    "text": "Well, actually, that's also a stoic trainer thought."
  },
  {
    "start": 850.12,
    "end": 853.04,
    "text": "Be there for the 400 percent or don't be there."
  },
  {
    "start": 853.08,
    "end": 856.2,
    "text": "If you don't want to be in a meeting, that's fine. Don't be there."
  },
  {
    "start": 856.3,
    "end": 859.58,
    "text": "But if you are in a meeting, be there fully."
  },
  {
    "start": 861.44,
    "end": 864.34,
    "text": "So that would be a very practical application of this."
  },
  {
    "start": 865.4,
    "end": 868.8,
    "text": "Another thing we can do is scenario planning."
  },
  {
    "start": 869.58,
    "end": 874.24,
    "text": "That's another, well, of course, bad things could happen, might happen, will probably happen."
  },
  {
    "start": 875.08,
    "end": 880.74,
    "text": "So scenario planning is a technique a lot of agile people will know. It's the idea you work"
  },
  {
    "start": 880.78,
    "end": 889.18,
    "text": "at scenarios for dreams you have for your product, in your product development. And then if you use"
  },
  {
    "start": 889.28,
    "end": 895.06,
    "text": "the SOIC principles, you'd also develop negative scenarios like we do. Well, you know more of"
  },
  {
    "start": 894.86,
    "end": 900.44,
    "text": "testing than I do. But of course, there is this testing that it's not only the happy"
  },
  {
    "start": 900.62,
    "end": 907.18,
    "text": "flow testing, but bad things will happen. So do your scenario planning and think of"
  },
  {
    "start": 907.88,
    "end": 917.34,
    "text": "possible bad or worse outcomes than the ideal outcome. Another idea is a 10-10-10 principle."
  },
  {
    "start": 918.3,
    "end": 925.24,
    "text": "If you make a decision, most of the time, all of us, you, me, but also product people,"
  },
  {
    "start": 925.44,
    "end": 932.08,
    "text": "product developers, we tend to think, okay, what will this do for me in the next, well,"
  },
  {
    "start": 932.34,
    "end": 935.06,
    "text": "10 seconds is usually a bit, but in the 10 minutes."
  },
  {
    "start": 935.45,
    "end": 939.26,
    "text": "So what's the real short term benefit of doing this or that?"
  },
  {
    "start": 940.42,
    "end": 944.079,
    "text": "Which is fine and sometimes very beneficial if you're about to cross a road while the"
  },
  {
    "start": 943.94,
    "end": 949.04,
    "text": "lights actually red, I hope you take the 10 seconds to decide it would be better for me"
  },
  {
    "start": 949.16,
    "end": 956.66,
    "text": "if I don't cross now. So the 10 seconds or 10 minutes frame is fine. But then also consider"
  },
  {
    "start": 957.2,
    "end": 965.18,
    "text": "in your decision making the next 10 months. So what happens if I don't cross or do cross"
  },
  {
    "start": 965.66,
    "end": 972.72,
    "text": "in the next 10 months? And then, and that's the real perspective for stoicism, what happens"
  },
  {
    "start": 972.72,
    "end": 978.3,
    "text": "in 10 years. So try in every decision you make, and maybe not necessarily whether you"
  },
  {
    "start": 978.4,
    "end": 982.68,
    "text": "put jam or peanut butter on your sandwich in the morning, maybe that's a bit too much,"
  },
  {
    "start": 983.1,
    "end": 990.06,
    "text": "but even that, but for every decision you make, take some time to reflect on the short"
  },
  {
    "start": 990.14,
    "end": 996.52,
    "text": "frame, 10 minutes, 10 months and 10 years. And that's something we can do in any development,"
  },
  {
    "start": 996.76,
    "end": 1005.3,
    "text": "any testing and any product management setting you have. So that's a strategy that comes from this,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1006.34,
    "end": 1011.6,
    "text": "be prepared for what might happen. It's very interesting because when I look back at the last"
  },
  {
    "start": 1011.68,
    "end": 1018.84,
    "text": "20 years of agile development, we want to get rid of all this long perspective thinking. Now,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1018.84,
    "end": 1024.5,
    "text": "we don't do any MS project planning with walls of two years and three years and so,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1024.76,
    "end": 1030.24,
    "text": "and try only look at the iteration now. Now is our sprint, the review meeting is on Thursday,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1030.38,
    "end": 1038.339,
    "text": "so we have to do and don't look what is the next one. So we focused so mainly on this one part,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1038.959,
    "end": 1044.52,
    "text": "on the short term that we don't think about what could be in 10 months or 10 years."
  },
  {
    "start": 1045.199,
    "end": 1053.02,
    "text": "The 10-10-10 rule is, I actually read about this rule or idea in the book by Annie Duke."
  },
  {
    "start": 1054.52,
    "end": 1057.14,
    "text": "thinking in bets and how to design."
  },
  {
    "start": 1057.64,
    "end": 1062.26,
    "text": "She used to be a professional poker player in the United States."
  },
  {
    "start": 1063.28,
    "end": 1066.98,
    "text": "She wrote a book about, well actually how product,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1067.24,
    "end": 1069.34,
    "text": "well she didn't write the book about product management,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1069.38,
    "end": 1074.22,
    "text": "but the idea is far more things are actually bets, not certainties."
  },
  {
    "start": 1075.879,
    "end": 1081.8,
    "text": "And she mentions this 10-10-10 principle as well as a strategy"
  },
  {
    "start": 1081.8,
    "end": 1084.8,
    "text": "to keep the short-term things near, which you do have to do."
  },
  {
    "start": 1084.9,
    "end": 1088.4,
    "text": "I mean, let's not pretend that it's suddenly a good idea to go back into the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1088.9,
    "end": 1091.28,
    "text": "wonderful mindset and only make long-term plans"
  },
  {
    "start": 1091.64,
    "end": 1093.32,
    "text": "and not see what's right in front of you."
  },
  {
    "start": 1093.4,
    "end": 1096.78,
    "text": "That would also not be a stoic thing, since you need to live now."
  },
  {
    "start": 1096.98,
    "end": 1099.22,
    "text": "You need to make decisions on where you are now."
  },
  {
    "start": 1100.52,
    "end": 1104.42,
    "text": "But the 10-10-10 also helps to bring the further perspective closer"
  },
  {
    "start": 1104.66,
    "end": 1106.88,
    "text": "and at least considering your decision making."
  },
  {
    "start": 1108.32,
    "end": 1110.78,
    "text": "Imagine with the peanut butter on your sandwich."
  },
  {
    "start": 1110.96,
    "end": 1117.12,
    "text": "And there could be consideration saying, well, you know, I like my peanut butter on my sandwich"
  },
  {
    "start": 1117.21,
    "end": 1122.02,
    "text": "this morning, but it might also make me fatter than I actually want to be because there's"
  },
  {
    "start": 1122.06,
    "end": 1123.28,
    "text": "a lot of fat in peanut butter."
  },
  {
    "start": 1123.88,
    "end": 1127.76,
    "text": "So maybe if I consider, well, you know, it won't make a difference for tomorrow."
  },
  {
    "start": 1128.52,
    "end": 1133.5,
    "text": "But if I consider the longer term and maybe for my heart health, 10 years, maybe not so"
  },
  {
    "start": 1133.58,
    "end": 1133.74,
    "text": "good."
  },
  {
    "start": 1133.82,
    "end": 1137.68,
    "text": "Maybe I take something else on my sandwich, which then leaves me with the question, what"
  },
  {
    "start": 1137.76,
    "end": 1139.28,
    "text": "then you should put on your sandwich."
  },
  {
    "start": 1139.44,
    "end": 1141.62,
    "text": "But that's not what we're talking about now."
  },
  {
    "start": 1142.58,
    "end": 1144.32,
    "text": "Yeah, that's so true."
  },
  {
    "start": 1144.68,
    "end": 1149.92,
    "text": "Do you have another principle to transform into our business daily life?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1150.1,
    "end": 1152.42,
    "text": "Yes, I have a last one to share."
  },
  {
    "start": 1152.54,
    "end": 1153.14,
    "text": "Well, actually two."
  },
  {
    "start": 1153.4,
    "end": 1154.1,
    "text": "Oh, great."
  },
  {
    "start": 1155.06,
    "end": 1157.16,
    "text": "No, because I mentioned it with three lessons."
  },
  {
    "start": 1157.66,
    "end": 1161.02,
    "text": "As I said yesterday in my talk, I can go on for hours about this."
  },
  {
    "start": 1161.12,
    "end": 1163.18,
    "text": "So we could do a day long podcast."
  },
  {
    "start": 1163.32,
    "end": 1170.66,
    "text": "Oh, your poor listeners. But I do have a third, well, let's say lesson or a principle you"
  },
  {
    "start": 1170.74,
    "end": 1180.72,
    "text": "could adapt, adapt or adopt. And that is, well, review or preview. The Stoics are famous"
  },
  {
    "start": 1180.92,
    "end": 1188.919,
    "text": "for their focus on reflection. We know a lot about Stoic philosophy by this Marcus Aurelius"
  },
  {
    "start": 1188.92,
    "end": 1192.12,
    "text": "who daily or almost daily wrote his meditations."
  },
  {
    "start": 1193.3,
    "end": 1194.74,
    "text": "This is actually his journal."
  },
  {
    "start": 1195.28,
    "end": 1196.86,
    "text": "It's his diary."
  },
  {
    "start": 1197.87,
    "end": 1201.4,
    "text": "And he even wrote in it while he was campaigning in Germania, in Germany,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1202.02,
    "end": 1203.2,
    "text": "and back in his days."
  },
  {
    "start": 1204.66,
    "end": 1209.12,
    "text": "And he wrote his reflections on, well, what happened,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1210.08,
    "end": 1212.12,
    "text": "on his philosophy, on his principles,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1212.98,
    "end": 1215.28,
    "text": "but also on how he wanted to conduct himself."
  },
  {
    "start": 1216.22,
    "end": 1218.12,
    "text": "And I'd like to think he did this daily."
  },
  {
    "start": 1218.36,
    "end": 1224.12,
    "text": "maybe he didn't, but he did this regularly. So he reflected upon his deeds."
  },
  {
    "start": 1225.68,
    "end": 1231.1,
    "text": "And that is a principle I'd really like to recommend to all of us for your personal life,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1231.1,
    "end": 1237.72,
    "text": "but also for your business life, sort of business journaling, and in particular on your decision"
  },
  {
    "start": 1237.86,
    "end": 1247.44,
    "text": "making. So keep a log, a decision log of how you make decisions, not necessarily how does your"
  },
  {
    "start": 1247.32,
    "end": 1254.86,
    "text": "decisions turn out. That's another thing Annie Duke warns us for. She says we tend to value"
  },
  {
    "start": 1255.1,
    "end": 1263.28,
    "text": "decisions by the quality of the outcome. So imagine today you decide to quit your job"
  },
  {
    "start": 1264.259,
    "end": 1269.94,
    "text": "because you have this dream of wanting to earn more and you want to go and live in a"
  },
  {
    "start": 1269.96,
    "end": 1274.56,
    "text": "fancy-pansy house with a big garden and a swimming pool. So you decide to quit your"
  },
  {
    "start": 1274.4,
    "end": 1277.18,
    "text": "job and join a fancy-pansy startup."
  },
  {
    "start": 1279.34,
    "end": 1282.16,
    "text": "And what we tend to do when I ask you, is that a good decision?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1282.74,
    "end": 1287.16,
    "text": "Well, of course, if you're anything into product development and product management, you say,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1287.28,
    "end": 1290.68,
    "text": "well, I need more information on just on this information."
  },
  {
    "start": 1290.75,
    "end": 1293.12,
    "text": "I can't decide anything, whether it's good or bad."
  },
  {
    "start": 1295.5,
    "end": 1301.359,
    "text": "And then if I tell you, well, then in the next year, it turns out that the startup becomes"
  },
  {
    "start": 1301.36,
    "end": 1306.4,
    "text": "very successful and becomes a scale up and it's being sold for a lot of money to a big"
  },
  {
    "start": 1306.62,
    "end": 1310.86,
    "text": "company and you get a million euros for your share in it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1311.16,
    "end": 1314.8,
    "text": "And so you can actually buy that house with the garden and the swimming pool."
  },
  {
    "start": 1315.96,
    "end": 1318.78,
    "text": "And what you tend to do is say, oh, you see, it was a good decision."
  },
  {
    "start": 1320.66,
    "end": 1325.34,
    "text": "But then what could also happen is this startup doesn't become a scale up."
  },
  {
    "start": 1325.94,
    "end": 1327.1,
    "text": "It will go very badly."
  },
  {
    "start": 1328.02,
    "end": 1329.74,
    "text": "It will go bankrupt within the year."
  },
  {
    "start": 1330.48,
    "end": 1334.74,
    "text": "become very unhappy because you were made to work really hard and it didn't result in"
  },
  {
    "start": 1334.76,
    "end": 1342.22,
    "text": "anything and so within a year your home bankrupt and morally bankrupt and burned out probably."
  },
  {
    "start": 1343.84,
    "end": 1347.64,
    "text": "So if I tell you this outcome you probably say oh that's a bad decision you see, you"
  },
  {
    "start": 1347.7,
    "end": 1354.299,
    "text": "shouldn't have done that. But in fact that's the outcome that's well perceived as positive"
  },
  {
    "start": 1354.3,
    "end": 1361.82,
    "text": "or negative. It's nothing to do with decision quality itself. So that's what Annie Duke"
  },
  {
    "start": 1361.98,
    "end": 1368.12,
    "text": "calls resulting. We tend to judge decisions by the outcome, not by the actual quality"
  },
  {
    "start": 1368.2,
    "end": 1373.58,
    "text": "of the decision making. Now, coming back to the journaling, what helps if you keep a decision"
  },
  {
    "start": 1373.7,
    "end": 1380.92,
    "text": "log or a journal of how you make decisions? Try and gather some data if you can, but also"
  },
  {
    "start": 1380.9,
    "end": 1384.02,
    "text": "realize you can never know everything that there is to know."
  },
  {
    "start": 1386.1,
    "end": 1388.3,
    "text": "So make small while we do this in Agile."
  },
  {
    "start": 1388.68,
    "end": 1394.04,
    "text": "Do small experiments and try to make the decision smaller like we do in a proper refinement."
  },
  {
    "start": 1394.68,
    "end": 1399.4,
    "text": "We make items smaller so we can sort of, well, get a better grip on them."
  },
  {
    "start": 1400.32,
    "end": 1402.34,
    "text": "Try and make your decision smaller."
  },
  {
    "start": 1403.42,
    "end": 1406.48,
    "text": "Realize you can't know everything and look at that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1407.14,
    "end": 1412.22,
    "text": "Write down what you do to make them smaller, what you can do to make smaller bets."
  },
  {
    "start": 1414.26,
    "end": 1416.58,
    "text": "How and when you take decisions."
  },
  {
    "start": 1417.05,
    "end": 1422.16,
    "text": "We all know that if you're very hungry after a long day of work and you go to the supermarket,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1422.61,
    "end": 1424.36,
    "text": "you probably will end up buying."
  },
  {
    "start": 1425.03,
    "end": 1425.94,
    "text": "I can see yourself."
  },
  {
    "start": 1426.98,
    "end": 1427.42,
    "text": "Stop it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1427.78,
    "end": 1427.86,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1428.26,
    "end": 1429.2,
    "text": "We all do."
  },
  {
    "start": 1429.36,
    "end": 1431.5,
    "text": "I mean, there's nothing weird about doing that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1432.42,
    "end": 1438.44,
    "text": "So if you want to make important decisions, also write down what are good circumstances"
  },
  {
    "start": 1438.64,
    "end": 1443.82,
    "text": "for you to make better decisions, not in a hurry, not under time pressure."
  },
  {
    "start": 1444.4,
    "end": 1449.76,
    "text": "However, there will always be decisions you need to make under time pressure and sometimes"
  },
  {
    "start": 1449.85,
    "end": 1455.22,
    "text": "you will end up having to go to the supermarket after this long day of work, which is okay"
  },
  {
    "start": 1455.42,
    "end": 1461.299,
    "text": "because if you train yourself with this journaling and this logging on what you actually need"
  },
  {
    "start": 1461.3,
    "end": 1465.94,
    "text": "and how you can make better decisions, at some point this training will kick in."
  },
  {
    "start": 1466.7,
    "end": 1471.08,
    "text": "And this preparation will kick in at the moment you're in the supermarket after a long day of work."
  },
  {
    "start": 1471.6,
    "end": 1473.8,
    "text": "Somewhere in the back of your mind, there will be something like,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1474.28,
    "end": 1479.36,
    "text": "I know that if I do this now, it feels good for the next 10 minutes,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1479.96,
    "end": 1483.36,
    "text": "but probably not in the long run. So log, journal."
  },
  {
    "start": 1484.62,
    "end": 1485.9,
    "text": "Two thoughts about that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1487.38,
    "end": 1492.0,
    "text": "you said the experiments and we often do the experiment stuff in HL,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1492.12,
    "end": 1497.08,
    "text": "but I often think we are looking at too much at the outcome here, as you said."
  },
  {
    "start": 1497.52,
    "end": 1501.82,
    "text": "And what's for me now an inspiration to look on this"
  },
  {
    "start": 1502.72,
    "end": 1507.08,
    "text": "on this decision making to the to the experiment and to lock that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1507.12,
    "end": 1511.02,
    "text": "And I think that's for everybody very important, because"
  },
  {
    "start": 1511.9,
    "end": 1514.699,
    "text": "we have today so many opportunities"
  },
  {
    "start": 1514.7,
    "end": 1517.86,
    "text": "and we could decide between all things."
  },
  {
    "start": 1518.96,
    "end": 1526.82,
    "text": "So decision making is such a good value for us to make good decisions and to focus on that more"
  },
  {
    "start": 1527.12,
    "end": 1534.18,
    "text": "because we can do everything today with our stuff and our life and so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 1535.42,
    "end": 1542.62,
    "text": "Well, and then I also guess there's another, well, it's the stoic value of temperance."
  },
  {
    "start": 1542.62,
    "end": 1543.98,
    "text": "We briefly touched upon that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1545.38,
    "end": 1547.8,
    "text": "Temperance is about holding yourself back."
  },
  {
    "start": 1548.44,
    "end": 1552.46,
    "text": "I think we all have this image of a stoic being a really restrained person,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1553.54,
    "end": 1554.78,
    "text": "someone without emotions."
  },
  {
    "start": 1554.96,
    "end": 1557.6,
    "text": "That's, by the way, actually not what stoicism is about."
  },
  {
    "start": 1558.26,
    "end": 1560.46,
    "text": "It's very much that people do have emotions."
  },
  {
    "start": 1560.57,
    "end": 1565.1,
    "text": "You just try to not react on them, because what you control is your own emotions."
  },
  {
    "start": 1565.22,
    "end": 1568.66,
    "text": "and how you reflect on them. So you're trying to change your perspective."
  },
  {
    "start": 1570.06,
    "end": 1572.64,
    "text": "But temperance is about holding yourself back."
  },
  {
    "start": 1572.76,
    "end": 1577.12,
    "text": "So not responding to your first emotion, not responding to"
  },
  {
    "start": 1577.72,
    "end": 1580.86,
    "text": "to what you think you might need right now."
  },
  {
    "start": 1581.04,
    "end": 1582.86,
    "text": "Coming back to the example of the supermarket."
  },
  {
    "start": 1583.96,
    "end": 1588.0,
    "text": "I, as a woman, would, of course, always think, oh, I need chocolate now."
  },
  {
    "start": 1589.34,
    "end": 1594.12,
    "text": "But the value of temperance then and added with the 10, 10, 10"
  },
  {
    "start": 1594.9,
    "end": 1597.12,
    "text": "often makes me decide not to buy the chocolate."
  },
  {
    "start": 1598.72,
    "end": 1602.9,
    "text": "And I think that also goes for the decision-making when it comes to experiments."
  },
  {
    "start": 1603.64,
    "end": 1605.0,
    "text": "We can do a lot."
  },
  {
    "start": 1605.56,
    "end": 1608.52,
    "text": "And well, as I say, I'm a product owner in infrastructure."
  },
  {
    "start": 1609.34,
    "end": 1614.6,
    "text": "We tend to be wanting to do all kinds of fancy, fancy experiments, because we can."
  },
  {
    "start": 1615.48,
    "end": 1620.54,
    "text": "And then I try to apply the value of temperance and say, well, do we really need to?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1620.98,
    "end": 1624.1,
    "text": "Do we really have to do this? And do we really have to do this now?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1624.26,
    "end": 1626.14,
    "text": "Of course, this is nothing new here."
  },
  {
    "start": 1626.18,
    "end": 1629.74,
    "text": "I mean, any good product owner would always say no, unless they'd have to."
  },
  {
    "start": 1630.4,
    "end": 1633.42,
    "text": "But I tend to make the joke to my teams that I'm a lazy product owner."
  },
  {
    "start": 1633.66,
    "end": 1639.0,
    "text": "So I'd rather not do, well, something unless it's really necessary."
  },
  {
    "start": 1639.86,
    "end": 1644.98,
    "text": "But that's the temperance value of, indeed, we can do any experiment, but let's not."
  },
  {
    "start": 1645.7,
    "end": 1646.18,
    "text": "Yeah, yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1646.86,
    "end": 1648.3,
    "text": "Yeah, that's a great thought."
  },
  {
    "start": 1648.82,
    "end": 1656.02,
    "text": "I think we can try to reduce all the decisions and look what is really necessary for us in"
  },
  {
    "start": 1656.1,
    "end": 1656.92,
    "text": "this moment."
  },
  {
    "start": 1657.61,
    "end": 1663.58,
    "text": "Also to be, as I said, present at 100% and then decide what to do."
  },
  {
    "start": 1666.26,
    "end": 1672.8,
    "text": "Thank you very much for this inspirational podcast show interview today."
  },
  {
    "start": 1674.36,
    "end": 1678.8,
    "text": "For me, it's a pleasure to think and to talk about."
  },
  {
    "start": 1678.8,
    "end": 1685.18,
    "text": "this stuff and to bring it into business. It's so important. So I liked that you did"
  },
  {
    "start": 1685.28,
    "end": 1691.02,
    "text": "the talk and now here the show for us. Thank you very much and enjoy the rest OOP."
  },
  {
    "start": 1691.48,
    "end": 1696.06,
    "text": "Yeah, well, thanks very much, Richie. Thanks for having me. Your poor listeners,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1696.38,
    "end": 1703.02,
    "text": "thanks for bearing with me and listening to all this stoic mumbling. I have a last goodbye remark,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1703.58,
    "end": 1708.26,
    "text": "because that was the fourth lesson, which was actually not one of the three, but it was a bonus."
  },
  {
    "start": 1709.34,
    "end": 1714.44,
    "text": "Yeah, no worries. And that is, that's one I'd like to share as a goodbye gift."
  },
  {
    "start": 1714.94,
    "end": 1718.76,
    "text": "And that's the turn inward. And it ties with what you just mentioned."
  },
  {
    "start": 1719.96,
    "end": 1723.36,
    "text": "There are so many things we could do. And maybe sometimes we shouldn't."
  },
  {
    "start": 1724.1,
    "end": 1727.58,
    "text": "Maybe we should take a step back, be a bit more tempered."
  },
  {
    "start": 1728.82,
    "end": 1733.22,
    "text": "So turn inward. It would be meditation or something else."
  },
  {
    "start": 1733.41,
    "end": 1736.16,
    "text": "I mean, meditations is also the book by Marcus Aurelius."
  },
  {
    "start": 1736.84,
    "end": 1742.68,
    "text": "But he also says, we are in society, we're part of it, we're not secluded, but sometimes"
  },
  {
    "start": 1742.69,
    "end": 1747.58,
    "text": "we do need to take a step back, turn inward and trust our own moral compass."
  },
  {
    "start": 1749.06,
    "end": 1750.82,
    "text": "So that's the last thing I'd like to leave you with."
  },
  {
    "start": 1750.82,
    "end": 1751.1,
    "text": "Thank you."
  },
  {
    "start": 1751.22,
    "end": 1752.06,
    "text": "Great, great work."
  },
  {
    "start": 1753.03,
    "end": 1753.82,
    "text": "Thank you very much."
  },
  {
    "start": 1753.98,
    "end": 1754.36,
    "text": "Thank you."
  },
  {
    "start": 1754.68,
    "end": 1755.24,
    "text": "Thank you."
  }
]