[ { "start": 0.001, "end": 4.96, "text": "Nobody was taking testing seriously until it started going wrong or it was an urgent need." }, { "start": 6.1, "end": 10.7, "text": "I’m not sure if I’m allowed to swear on your podcast, but I’m a high-level bullshit guy." }, { "start": 12.2, "end": 15.44, "text": "I understand the theories, I can sell the theories," }, { "start": 15.6, "end": 16.74, "text": "I can explain the theories." }, { "start": 18.16, "end": 20.64, "text": "Then comes the hard part, a harder part," }, { "start": 21.12, "end": 23.3, "text": "because it’s not often easy to convince senior managers." }, { "start": 23.78, "end": 25.08, "text": "It’s convincing everybody else." }, { "start": 26.48, "end": 29.38, "text": "When developers say they’ve got 100% code coverage" }, { "start": 29.98, "end": 31.44, "text": "and the code is still terrible," }, { "start": 31.98, "end": 32.72, "text": "there’s something wrong." }, { "start": 34.36, "end": 36.86, "text": "Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed." }, { "start": 37.04, "end": 39.44, "text": "My name is Richie and I have another episode" }, { "start": 39.56, "end": 44.08, "text": "from the Istanbul Software Testing Conference 2026 for you." }, { "start": 44.3, "end": 46.06, "text": "My guest was Phil Royston," }, { "start": 46.25, "end": 50.04, "text": "and we talked about his path from accidental test manager" }, { "start": 50.04, "end": 52.48, "text": "to transforming testing in a large bank," }, { "start": 52.7, "end": 55.72, "text": "why contract-driven testing can decouple your tests" }, { "start": 55.72, "end": 58.08, "text": "from fragile integration environments," }, { "start": 58.3, "end": 60.02, "text": "how to win over stakeholders," }, { "start": 60.4, "end": 62.86, "text": "and why it pays to wait for the crisis," }, { "start": 63.08, "end": 65.059, "text": "all that you’ll find in this episode." }, { "start": 65.339, "end": 65.82, "text": "And now," }, { "start": 66.14, "end": 66.36, "text": "enjoy." }, { "start": 66.52, "end": 68.72, "text": "(upbeat music)" }, { "start": 76.34, "end": 76.44, "text": "Hi," }, { "start": 76.66, "end": 77.84, "text": "Phil, great to have you on the show here." }, { "start": 77.94, "end": 78.7, "text": "Hi, thank you," }, { "start": 78.88, "end": 80.6, "text": "thank you for asking me to talk." }, { "start": 80.82, "end": 80.94, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 81.18, "end": 81.52, "text": "(laughs)" }, { "start": 81.78, "end": 82.5, "text": "I like talking." }, { "start": 82.86, "end": 83.28, "text": "(Phil laughs)" }, { "start": 84.16, "end": 86.04, "text": "We are here at the Istanbul Testing Conference," }, { "start": 87.61, "end": 88.42, "text": "the third one," }, { "start": 88.82, "end": 89.66, "text": "third edition." }, { "start": 90.04, "end": 96.04, "text": "And up front I read the abstract and I wrote my list of speakers I want to interview." }, { "start": 96.3, "end": 102.98, "text": "And you had a very nice story in your abstract and I can relate with some points in that." }, { "start": 104.1, "end": 107.54, "text": "When you talked about the company, when you come back." }, { "start": 108.68, "end": 111.02, "text": "So I think we have to talk about it." }, { "start": 111.02, "end": 112.62, "text": "But let’s go into it." }, { "start": 112.94, "end": 117.6, "text": "What was your history from the beginning to the..." }, { "start": 117.6, "end": 118.54, "text": "From the very beginning." }, { "start": 118.78, "end": 120.44, "text": "Before you come to the company," }, { "start": 120.64, "end": 121.5, "text": "so in short." }, { "start": 121.66, "end": 122.96, "text": "From the very, very beginning." }, { "start": 123.22, "end": 123.8, "text": "No, no way." }, { "start": 125.02, "end": 128.22, "text": "To shorten it quite a lot, I was a developer for a long time." }, { "start": 129.22, "end": 133.26, "text": "And then purely by accident, I became a test manager in 2002," }, { "start": 133.46, "end": 133.76, "text": "I think." }, { "start": 134.38, "end": 137.32, "text": "and I’d spent maybe 15," }, { "start": 137.6, "end": 138.6, "text": "17 years in IT" }, { "start": 138.7, "end": 140.52, "text": "and I’d never ever met a software tester." }, { "start": 141.41, "end": 142.84, "text": "And suddenly I was a test manager." }, { "start": 143.68, "end": 144.56, "text": "And so that was," }, { "start": 145.08, "end": 147.32, "text": "and at that point I really never really liked the job." }, { "start": 147.64, "end": 149.88, "text": "I was quite good at IT, I was a good developer," }, { "start": 149.98, "end": 150.64, "text": "I was a good analyst." }, { "start": 151.52, "end": 153.58, "text": "I was kind of like a one-man DevOps show" }, { "start": 153.68, "end": 155.62, "text": "because I was doing bank system support" }, { "start": 156.0, "end": 157.78, "text": "in a time before we had remote access." }, { "start": 158.72, "end": 159.84, "text": "So you had to go to the bank" }, { "start": 159.88, "end": 161.46, "text": "and you had to find the business person," }, { "start": 161.55, "end": 162.7, "text": "you say, \"What do you need?" }, { "start": 163.14, "end": 163.619, "text": "What’s wrong?\"" }, { "start": 163.64, "end": 166.04, "text": "and you try to understand what they were talking about," }, { "start": 166.4, "end": 167.26, "text": "and then you went downstairs," }, { "start": 167.7, "end": 169.24, "text": "and you try to figure out how to do it," }, { "start": 169.26, "end": 170.66, "text": "and you went back upstairs and checked with them," }, { "start": 170.68, "end": 171.9, "text": "and you went back downstairs again." }, { "start": 172.4, "end": 172.86, "text": "And then," }, { "start": 173.2, "end": 174.22, "text": "I think in that environment," }, { "start": 174.28, "end": 175.54, "text": "we used to put the things live," }, { "start": 176.14, "end": 177.94, "text": "and if it broke, you got called at three o’clock" }, { "start": 177.94, "end": 179.16, "text": "in the morning that the batch had failed." }, { "start": 179.3, "end": 181.42, "text": "So you were very, very careful about doing testing." }, { "start": 181.88, "end": 183.72, "text": "So we did a lot of testing, probably not in a good way," }, { "start": 183.8, "end": 184.98, "text": "but we tested, tested, tested." }, { "start": 186.859, "end": 187.5, "text": "And then," }, { "start": 188.16, "end": 190.16, "text": "becoming a software test manager," }, { "start": 190.9, "end": 193.6, "text": "not knowing really anything about formal testing." }, { "start": 193.68, "end": 197.12, "text": "This was 2002 where we presented today the V-model." }, { "start": 197.48, "end": 199.16, "text": "V-model was king in those days." }, { "start": 202.76, "end": 203.82, "text": "I’m kind of a guy that," }, { "start": 204.08, "end": 205.9, "text": "like if I’m given a job, I like to do it well." }, { "start": 206.35, "end": 208.32, "text": "So I decided I would be a good test manager." }, { "start": 208.62, "end": 209.62, "text": "But in those days," }, { "start": 210.31, "end": 213.04, "text": "there wasn’t really much resources on the internet." }, { "start": 213.88, "end": 215.14, "text": "So you found a few articles" }, { "start": 215.36, "end": 216.84, "text": "and you tried to piece something together" }, { "start": 217.32, "end": 218.68, "text": "and you invented the rest," }, { "start": 218.84, "end": 219.82, "text": "or invented the rest." }, { "start": 219.82, "end": 221.38, "text": "So I was inventing software testing." }, { "start": 222.3, "end": 223.76, "text": "And I remember I was, I can’t remember when," }, { "start": 223.76, "end": 225.02, "text": "it was like five, six years later," }, { "start": 225.08, "end": 227.64, "text": "I was like very successful test manager." }, { "start": 228.26, "end": 229.72, "text": "Anybody that had a horrible project," }, { "start": 230.34, "end": 230.84, "text": "they phoned me," }, { "start": 231.06, "end": 231.12, "text": "basically," }, { "start": 231.55, "end": 233.84, "text": "'cause I was good at getting horrible projects live." }, { "start": 235.24, "end": 236.78, "text": "And I thought, wow, really," }, { "start": 236.94, "end": 239.28, "text": "I’m clearly a test manager now," }, { "start": 239.32, "end": 240.26, "text": "and I need to have a certificate" }, { "start": 241.12, "end": 242.8, "text": "to prove that I’m a real test manager." }, { "start": 242.92, "end": 244.6, "text": "So I did the ISTQB Foundation level" }, { "start": 245.02, "end": 247.66, "text": "and was completely frustrated by everything" }, { "start": 247.66, "end": 250.22, "text": "already existed that I’d invented for the past five years" }, { "start": 250.79, "end": 252.24, "text": "and invented in a much better way." }, { "start": 252.88, "end": 256.9, "text": "So that for me was like a moment of anger, I would say," }, { "start": 257.12, "end": 259.959, "text": "because I was this kind of like amateur professional" }, { "start": 260.01, "end": 262.68, "text": "for a long time, inventing things that had already been invented." }, { "start": 264.04, "end": 266.28, "text": "I don’t like the word \"best practices,\"" }, { "start": 266.28, "end": 268.68, "text": "I like \"good practices,\" like trying to reuse good practices" }, { "start": 268.68, "end": 271.34, "text": "of people who’ve got plenty more experience than I have" }, { "start": 271.83, "end": 272.68, "text": "and trying to reuse that." }, { "start": 272.68, "end": 276.02, "text": "So I got really angry and that was maybe the beginning" }, { "start": 276.04, "end": 277.54, "text": "of the idea to form a company." }, { "start": 278.34, "end": 280.32, "text": "Yes, I looked around me and in our environment," }, { "start": 280.4, "end": 281.54, "text": "the Czech and Slovak Republics." }, { "start": 282.9, "end": 284.22, "text": "But I believe this is the same everywhere." }, { "start": 284.4, "end": 286.22, "text": "When I talk to people in Finland or in Germany," }, { "start": 286.28, "end": 287.3, "text": "in Austria, it’s always the same." }, { "start": 287.98, "end": 291.04, "text": "Testing is kind of like an amateur part of the whole IT." }, { "start": 291.38, "end": 291.58, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 291.84, "end": 292.4, "text": "You test," }, { "start": 292.62, "end": 293.4, "text": "anyone can test." }, { "start": 293.46, "end": 295.52, "text": "In our environment, we used to say anyone can test." }, { "start": 295.94, "end": 297.44, "text": "And literally, I used to make the joke saying," }, { "start": 297.5, "end": 299.4, "text": "\"Should we go out and find some homeless people?\"" }, { "start": 299.46, "end": 299.54, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 299.64, "end": 301.92, "text": "Because you don’t have a budget for the testing team," }, { "start": 302.12, "end": 303.42, "text": "we could find some homeless people." }, { "start": 303.6, "end": 304.48, "text": "I’m going to make it a joke," }, { "start": 304.48, "end": 308.12, "text": "but really it was maybe even a little bit serious." }, { "start": 308.86, "end": 312.86, "text": "So I was annoyed that I was working on these really big projects," }, { "start": 313.46, "end": 316.98, "text": "and what would happen was they’d be two weeks away from testing." }, { "start": 317.14, "end": 320.48, "text": "They’d spent five years doing requirements and coding, whatever." }, { "start": 321.02, "end": 322.5, "text": "Then they said, \"Oh, we’re going to start testing." }, { "start": 322.5, "end": 324.5, "text": "We better start thinking about testing." }, { "start": 324.96, "end": 329.14, "text": "Let’s call Phil.\" I’d arrive and nothing was prepared," }, { "start": 329.3, "end": 330.7, "text": "and nobody thought something through." }, { "start": 330.7, "end": 333.42, "text": "There might be a presentation done by some consultants somewhere," }, { "start": 333.88, "end": 336.44, "text": "And I really got very tired of going through this situation" }, { "start": 336.6, "end": 338.74, "text": "where nobody was taking testing seriously" }, { "start": 338.92, "end": 341.68, "text": "until it started going wrong or it was an urgent need." }, { "start": 342.14, "end": 345.02, "text": "So that was basically the formation of the idea" }, { "start": 345.02, "end": 345.82, "text": "to set up a company." }, { "start": 347.5, "end": 349.66, "text": "And I think the other funny thing about it was" }, { "start": 349.82, "end": 352.64, "text": "whenever I went somewhere and I was a test manager," }, { "start": 352.72, "end": 354.1, "text": "I was like an external test manager," }, { "start": 354.28, "end": 355.68, "text": "and I created a testing team," }, { "start": 357.04, "end": 358.88, "text": "and I was very lucky." }, { "start": 358.96, "end": 361.08, "text": "I really found good people that worked really, really well." }, { "start": 361.34, "end": 363.14, "text": "They were always very good fun to work with." }, { "start": 363.42, "end": 364.68, "text": "And they would say to me, \"Phil," }, { "start": 365.26, "end": 366.38, "text": "you should set up" }, { "start": 366.42, "end": 369.06, "text": "your own testing company and we’d come and work for you.\"" }, { "start": 369.06, "end": 370.1, "text": "That was their dream." }, { "start": 370.66, "end": 372.68, "text": "So eventually I set up this testing company" }, { "start": 372.76, "end": 375.02, "text": "and none of those people ever came to work for me." }, { "start": 375.1, "end": 376.26, "text": "So it was quite funny." }, { "start": 377.18, "end": 381.78, "text": "Yeah, but it was this idea that testing wasn’t being taken seriously," }, { "start": 382.12, "end": 385.42, "text": "that testing was important and should be treated" }, { "start": 385.5, "end": 389.62, "text": "in a structured sort of prepared way that we don’t just start testing" }, { "start": 389.98, "end": 392.04, "text": "was the idea behind forming a company." }, { "start": 392.3, "end": 395.96, "text": "And I got to the stage where I got very tired, I think, and burnt out from doing these big," }, { "start": 396.14, "end": 396.78, "text": "horrible projects." }, { "start": 397.46, "end": 397.78, "text": "I thought," }, { "start": 397.96, "end": 398.06, "text": "\"Okay," }, { "start": 398.34, "end": 400.18, "text": "my way out of this trap," }, { "start": 400.7, "end": 403.34, "text": "this continuous loop that when I finish one project," }, { "start": 403.37, "end": 406.04, "text": "I basically went to the next one, which was the same as the previous one," }, { "start": 406.58, "end": 410.2, "text": "was to try and set up a software testing company.\"" }, { "start": 410.76, "end": 413.76, "text": "And I think the idea that you set up a business," }, { "start": 414.07, "end": 414.86, "text": "which is your job," }, { "start": 415.02, "end": 416.12, "text": "is a very stupid one." }, { "start": 417.979, "end": 418.86, "text": "Because you," }, { "start": 419.06, "end": 422.04, "text": "the thing you love you stop doing." }, { "start": 422.3, "end": 422.44, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 423.04, "end": 425.82, "text": "Or let’s say the thing you like in work." }, { "start": 426.16, "end": 429.14, "text": "I don’t want to say I love anything to do with work," }, { "start": 429.22, "end": 431.94, "text": "but the thing you have a strong emotion about you stop doing." }, { "start": 432.26, "end": 432.34, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 432.44, "end": 434.64, "text": "Because you have to deal with other things like hiring people," }, { "start": 434.82, "end": 435.98, "text": "firing people, paying people." }, { "start": 436.24, "end": 436.38, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 436.44, "end": 442.14, "text": "And like keeping people and not keeping people and dealing with clients and selling things and solving problems." }, { "start": 442.2, "end": 443.96, "text": "So that was like the next 12 years." }, { "start": 447.64, "end": 448.94, "text": "And the companies," }, { "start": 449.14, "end": 450.54, "text": "we have a co-founder, there’s two of us." }, { "start": 450.62, "end": 452.5, "text": "So it’s this Czech company in the Czech Republic." }, { "start": 452.98, "end": 454.42, "text": "And the owner is a British guy," }, { "start": 454.62, "end": 454.82, "text": "me," }, { "start": 455.28, "end": 457.02, "text": "and the other owner is a Slovak guy." }, { "start": 457.12, "end": 458.3, "text": "So it’s nothing," }, { "start": 458.9, "end": 460.24, "text": "kind of like very strange." }, { "start": 460.96, "end": 462.4, "text": "And Marcel is super technical" }, { "start": 462.62, "end": 464.34, "text": "and he’s like really got lots of creativity." }, { "start": 464.98, "end": 467.42, "text": "And I’m kind of the guy that tried to slow him down." }, { "start": 467.62, "end": 469.5, "text": "And let’s think about this," }, { "start": 469.62, "end": 471.08, "text": "let’s think this through a little bit." }, { "start": 471.14, "end": 472.2, "text": "So that was kind of like," }, { "start": 472.82, "end": 475.46, "text": "even now we work together very, very well." }, { "start": 475.54, "end": 478.64, "text": "We’ve been doing it for 13, 14 years and it’s still working very well." }, { "start": 479.76, "end": 484.74, "text": "But he was like the first CEO and he helped the company grow really fast." }, { "start": 485.56, "end": 489.94, "text": "And then I could see that he was really hating it because he likes doing things" }, { "start": 490.06, "end": 491.4, "text": "which are always new. He’s always this guy," }, { "start": 491.56, "end": 493.08, "text": "he wants to do things new the whole time." }, { "start": 493.75, "end": 494.1, "text": "And I said," }, { "start": 494.28, "end": 494.38, "text": "okay," }, { "start": 494.86, "end": 495.72, "text": "Marcel is suffering. Yeah." }, { "start": 495.9, "end": 499.699, "text": "So you go off and do what you want and I’ll take over the company for a couple" }, { "start": 499.7, "end": 503.68, "text": "years I’ll run as a CEO and it’s not anything I ever ever dreamed about being" }, { "start": 503.7, "end": 509.06, "text": "a CEO yeah or even when I got into it like forming a company actually wasn’t" }, { "start": 509.14, "end": 513.419, "text": "my dream at all I realized later this is if it’s not really really what you want" }, { "start": 513.46, "end": 517.58, "text": "to do then don’t do it yeah I would suggest so I did so my plan was to stay" }, { "start": 517.62, "end": 522.719, "text": "a CEO for two years and it was six and then I think it was nearly seven and I" }, { "start": 522.76, "end": 527.899, "text": "was like really I’d had enough I’d burnt out a couple of times over the 13 years" }, { "start": 527.9, "end": 530.3, "text": "I’m sure I’ve burnt out psychologically a couple of times." }, { "start": 531.22, "end": 532.8, "text": "And I was really trying to find a way to," }, { "start": 533.3, "end": 533.8, "text": "let’s say," }, { "start": 534.0, "end": 535.56, "text": "reduce the pain, which we did." }, { "start": 535.64, "end": 537.16, "text": "And that’s a different podcast." }, { "start": 537.94, "end": 540.34, "text": "We found a way to organize the company a different way." }, { "start": 541.12, "end": 542.34, "text": "But after like two years, I was saying," }, { "start": 542.94, "end": 544.22, "text": "we should have changed the CEO." }, { "start": 544.29, "end": 545.16, "text": "We need somebody new." }, { "start": 545.72, "end": 547.48, "text": "I’m like not coming up with any new ideas." }, { "start": 547.6, "end": 548.7, "text": "It’s not good for the company." }, { "start": 549.05, "end": 550.54, "text": "I don’t have the energy for it anymore." }, { "start": 551.32, "end": 553.22, "text": "Like every problem seems to me like we already solved it" }, { "start": 553.28, "end": 555.7, "text": "10 times before and I’m tired of it." }, { "start": 555.88, "end": 556.72, "text": "So then we last," }, { "start": 557.24, "end": 559.7, "text": "eventually the beginning of this year, we’ve got a new CEO," }, { "start": 560.36, "end": 565.36, "text": "but last year I was already sort of two thirds out because I set up this," }, { "start": 566.58, "end": 569.04, "text": "I called it CEO three point, no 2.5." }, { "start": 569.74, "end": 571.14, "text": "Cause we had CEO one, which was Marcel," }, { "start": 571.38, "end": 576.66, "text": "CEO 2 was me and 2.5 was a half step where we had three people being CEO together" }, { "start": 577.34, "end": 580.84, "text": "just as an interim step. So at that point the bank called," }, { "start": 581.12, "end": 582.48, "text": "we’ve got this horrible project." }, { "start": 583.36, "end": 588.96, "text": "And I’d actually done a test process assessment in this bank like a year before and seeing all these," }, { "start": 589.6, "end": 589.82, "text": "let’s say," }, { "start": 590.0, "end": 590.9, "text": "structural problems." }, { "start": 591.66, "end": 594.72, "text": "And the bank came like six months later and said," }, { "start": 595.18, "end": 596.9, "text": "\"We’re starting this transformation program.\"" }, { "start": 596.9, "end": 598.26, "text": "And I was like, \"Transformation program?" }, { "start": 598.66, "end": 602.38, "text": "That’s the moment where you can actually probably solve some of those problems.\"" }, { "start": 602.46, "end": 604.86, "text": "And in my presentation today, I was like thinking," }, { "start": 604.96, "end": 607.14, "text": "\"Well, I’ve been sitting at these conferences for 13 years," }, { "start": 607.48, "end": 610.36, "text": "listening to all these guys talking about all these new tricks that they’ve got." }, { "start": 610.84, "end": 612.92, "text": "why not go and try to apply some of them?" }, { "start": 613.45, "end": 613.92, "text": "And actually," }, { "start": 614.66, "end": 615.88, "text": "it’s super good fun, I have to say." }, { "start": 617.38, "end": 620.0, "text": "It’s a bank that’s very, very conservative" }, { "start": 620.4, "end": 621.8, "text": "and at the same time," }, { "start": 622.0, "end": 622.78, "text": "very, very innovative." }, { "start": 622.96, "end": 625.34, "text": "It’s really a contrast of styles." }, { "start": 626.01, "end": 626.92, "text": "The people are amazing." }, { "start": 627.5, "end": 628.8, "text": "Software testing is amazing." }, { "start": 628.96, "end": 631.52, "text": "They’ve really got amazing production quality." }, { "start": 631.53, "end": 634.58, "text": "If you imagine the complexity of a bank," }, { "start": 634.76, "end": 635.66, "text": "which is," }, { "start": 635.82, "end": 637.98, "text": "I think it’s 100 years old, this bank," }, { "start": 638.29, "end": 640.82, "text": "and for 35 years, it’s had to go from communism" }, { "start": 640.82, "end": 643.98, "text": "ultra-modern digital banking trying to emulate Revolut." }, { "start": 644.7, "end": 646.5, "text": "And they’ve had to innovate for 35 years." }, { "start": 646.64, "end": 648.68, "text": "And they’ve got this legacy of all these systems" }, { "start": 648.68, "end": 651.22, "text": "they had to put together and constantly inventing" }, { "start": 651.4, "end": 653.32, "text": "new layers and new functions." }, { "start": 653.5, "end": 654.56, "text": "So it’s horribly complicated." }, { "start": 654.69, "end": 656.8, "text": "And they managed to keep production alive" }, { "start": 656.84, "end": 657.78, "text": "and keep everything stable." }, { "start": 657.96, "end": 661.08, "text": "So in an environment where testing is working well," }, { "start": 662.02, "end": 663.7, "text": "you come in and say, OK, we should change things." }, { "start": 663.78, "end": 665.16, "text": "And people are sort of looking at it saying, like," }, { "start": 665.46, "end": 666.42, "text": "why?" }, { "start": 667.04, "end": 669.38, "text": "And then you have to try and engage them somehow with," }, { "start": 669.38, "end": 673.1, "text": "like okay but imagine we could do this and we could imagine do that and some" }, { "start": 673.26, "end": 677.68, "text": "people get curious yeah some people say okay I’d like to do that I’d like to be" }, { "start": 677.74, "end": 682.12, "text": "involved in that and they get involved in that some people sees the crisis yeah" }, { "start": 682.5, "end": 685.48, "text": "but they see this the bank is trying to do this transformation program which is" }, { "start": 685.5, "end": 689.28, "text": "to switch out some of the systems make everything more simple so they see it" }, { "start": 689.28, "end": 692.92, "text": "kind of like a big challenge of crisis and it’s an unknown so they’re also" }, { "start": 693.06, "end": 696.26, "text": "engaged that somebody’s there who’s looking like they know what they’re" }, { "start": 696.18, "end": 696.72, "text": "talking about." }, { "start": 699.3, "end": 702.7, "text": "So that gets people, but it’s super good fun." }, { "start": 703.519, "end": 707.06, "text": "People are really good and we’re making progress." }, { "start": 707.38, "end": 707.88, "text": "It’s not" }, { "start": 708.0, "end": 708.38, "text": "fast," }, { "start": 708.85, "end": 710.2, "text": "but I didn’t expect it to be fast." }, { "start": 710.51, "end": 712.42, "text": "But what were the problems when" }, { "start": 712.48, "end": 717.16, "text": "you came here into this company and see how they work?" }, { "start": 717.16, "end": 718.74, "text": "It’s not really problems." }, { "start": 718.92, "end": 719.7, "text": "Like I said," }, { "start": 720.16, "end": 721.74, "text": "they were managing" }, { "start": 721.74, "end": 723.34, "text": "massive complexity," }, { "start": 723.69, "end": 726.18, "text": "a massive legacy of old," }, { "start": 726.72, "end": 728.44, "text": "actually most banks in the Czech Republic" }, { "start": 728.62, "end": 730.02, "text": "are actually two banks or three banks" }, { "start": 730.11, "end": 731.98, "text": "because at some point one bank collapsed" }, { "start": 732.08, "end": 733.66, "text": "and they had to merge them together sort of thing." }, { "start": 734.08, "end": 736.46, "text": "And they do retail banking, corporate banking," }, { "start": 736.92, "end": 738.6, "text": "investment banking, private banking," }, { "start": 738.78, "end": 738.96, "text": "most of them." }, { "start": 738.96, "end": 741.18, "text": "So they’ve got like huge portfolios," }, { "start": 741.42, "end": 742.62, "text": "they’ve got millions of clients," }, { "start": 743.52, "end": 747.0, "text": "and they’ve had to go from paper-based systems in 1990" }, { "start": 747.9, "end": 749.98, "text": "to now we’re trying to be like Revolut" }, { "start": 749.98, "end": 753.84, "text": "AI in our smartphone banking application." }, { "start": 754.68, "end": 754.94, "text": "So," }, { "start": 755.48, "end": 756.34, "text": "having to deal with all this," }, { "start": 756.96, "end": 760.84, "text": "and these things I would say is a legacy." }, { "start": 761.399, "end": 764.12, "text": "I don’t really want to say they have problems." }, { "start": 764.6, "end": 769.12, "text": "They’re trying to deal with a very complex situation," }, { "start": 769.92, "end": 773.34, "text": "and that means that they handle that complexity in big releases." }, { "start": 774.02, "end": 776.12, "text": "Now, since DevOps appeared, I don’t know," }, { "start": 776.38, "end": 777.2, "text": "15 years ago," }, { "start": 777.7, "end": 779.44, "text": "we’ve been talking about small batch sizes." }, { "start": 779.62, "end": 782.94, "text": "This is how you go live fast with high quality" }, { "start": 783.04, "end": 784.74, "text": "'cause you’re just doing small, small changes." }, { "start": 785.26, "end": 787.04, "text": "And the bank can’t do small, small changes" }, { "start": 787.07, "end": 789.9, "text": "'cause everything is integrated to everything else." }, { "start": 790.42, "end": 794.0, "text": "So you have to keep 10 wheels turning at the same time" }, { "start": 794.06, "end": 795.18, "text": "to go live with any change." }, { "start": 795.68, "end": 797.52, "text": "And then you could impact lots of other things" }, { "start": 797.64, "end": 800.18, "text": "which you don’t know about or have forgotten about." }, { "start": 800.64, "end": 803.42, "text": "So therefore you have to do a lot of testing." }, { "start": 803.58, "end": 803.8, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 804.24, "end": 807.82, "text": "So the bank is doing a transformation program" }, { "start": 807.82, "end": 809.02, "text": "to try and simplify itself," }, { "start": 809.82, "end": 810.9, "text": "which gives us an opportunity" }, { "start": 811.02, "end": 812.98, "text": "to think of a way of doing testing in a different way." }, { "start": 813.52, "end": 815.86, "text": "And what we’re trying to do is really basic stuff" }, { "start": 815.88, "end": 816.76, "text": "like shift left." }, { "start": 817.2, "end": 817.34, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 818.899, "end": 821.38, "text": "And what I’m trying to do is to," }, { "start": 823.18, "end": 824.96, "text": "we lost at some point in testing," }, { "start": 825.84, "end": 827.34, "text": "when I was a tester," }, { "start": 827.54, "end": 828.9, "text": "we had a core banking system," }, { "start": 829.48, "end": 830.94, "text": "which was a standalone monolith." }, { "start": 831.2, "end": 831.32, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 831.38, "end": 832.48, "text": "And you could test it on its own." }, { "start": 833.08, "end": 835.1, "text": "You could test everything individually in the whole system." }, { "start": 835.22, "end": 836.28, "text": "We had system testing." }, { "start": 836.5, "end": 836.64, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 837.3, "end": 839.72, "text": "because now the core banking system doesn’t work" }, { "start": 839.98, "end": 842.08, "text": "unless it’s integrated into 50 other applications." }, { "start": 842.3, "end": 842.4, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 843.5, "end": 844.58, "text": "And I was saying like, but like," }, { "start": 845.18, "end": 848.06, "text": "we’re trying to test things when everything’s integrated" }, { "start": 848.24, "end": 851.44, "text": "and the problem is that the LDAP system is broken" }, { "start": 851.68, "end": 854.28, "text": "or the data feed for the exchange rates is broken," }, { "start": 854.4, "end": 855.74, "text": "the client data feed is broken," }, { "start": 856.3, "end": 857.6, "text": "so nothing works in the system." }, { "start": 857.7, "end": 857.9, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 858.84, "end": 860.16, "text": "So I’m stuck, I can’t test anything" }, { "start": 860.32, "end": 862.52, "text": "'cause I’m dependent on somebody else" }, { "start": 862.64, "end": 864.2, "text": "and they’ve got some problems or some delay." }, { "start": 864.86, "end": 867.28, "text": "And I was trying to think of a way we could go back" }, { "start": 867.28, "end": 870.0, "text": "the way it used to be that I could test the things in the system." }, { "start": 871.7, "end": 873.76, "text": "And I thought I came up with the answer, and I believe I have," }, { "start": 873.8, "end": 875.26, "text": "and it’s contract-driven testing." }, { "start": 875.43, "end": 875.52, "text": "Ah," }, { "start": 875.78, "end": 876.12, "text": "okay, yeah." }, { "start": 876.5, "end": 877.26, "text": "Which is like," }, { "start": 878.69, "end": 880.82, "text": "it was something I maybe came across by accident." }, { "start": 881.06, "end": 883.5, "text": "I was sitting maybe at a presentation at a conference," }, { "start": 883.64, "end": 885.28, "text": "I was going, \"What?\"" }, { "start": 885.28, "end": 887.42, "text": "And I didn’t really understand what they were talking about," }, { "start": 887.84, "end": 890.52, "text": "but it kept going around in my head, and maybe I saw some article," }, { "start": 890.68, "end": 891.7, "text": "and then I saw something else." }, { "start": 893.26, "end": 896.08, "text": "And the problem with trying to test things in isolation," }, { "start": 896.16, "end": 898.2, "text": "Like if you do unit testing or system testing," }, { "start": 898.44, "end": 899.98, "text": "you need to mock out the integration." }, { "start": 900.98, "end": 904.4, "text": "The mocks are based on the programmers imagination of" }, { "start": 904.46, "end": 906.52, "text": "how the integration to the other units," }, { "start": 906.62, "end": 908.42, "text": "components, or systems is going to work." }, { "start": 909.18, "end": 910.24, "text": "So they’re not realistic," }, { "start": 910.68, "end": 912.32, "text": "because they’re not real." }, { "start": 912.72, "end": 913.96, "text": "They’re just imagination," }, { "start": 914.18, "end": 914.32, "text": "and" }, { "start": 914.4, "end": 915.76, "text": "therefore you don’t get reliable testing." }, { "start": 916.32, "end": 919.16, "text": "So that’s probably one of the problems in unit testing," }, { "start": 919.88, "end": 922.18, "text": "is that when developers say they’ve got" }, { "start": 922.46, "end": 925.74, "text": "100 percent code coverage and the code is still terrible," }, { "start": 926.14, "end": 927.1, "text": "there’s something wrong." }, { "start": 927.38, "end": 927.5, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 927.76, "end": 928.0, "text": "Because," }, { "start": 928.38, "end": 931.76, "text": "and we could talk for an hour about why unit testing," }, { "start": 932.1, "end": 933.84, "text": "and we’ve got the different pyramids." }, { "start": 933.9, "end": 935.06, "text": "We’ve got the Christmas tree pyramid," }, { "start": 935.22, "end": 936.22, "text": "the honeycomb," }, { "start": 936.34, "end": 940.22, "text": "and there’s a trophy from Spotify and other organizations" }, { "start": 940.46, "end": 942.0, "text": "that unit testing is not very effective." }, { "start": 942.18, "end": 943.46, "text": "Test the interfaces because that’s" }, { "start": 943.46, "end": 944.32, "text": "where you get all the errors." }, { "start": 944.84, "end": 944.96, "text": "Yeah," }, { "start": 945.12, "end": 948.7, "text": "so but one of the problems is that they’ve got no mocks," }, { "start": 949.96, "end": 950.72, "text": "realistic mocks." }, { "start": 950.76, "end": 952.3, "text": "And the same problem for system testing." }, { "start": 952.38, "end": 955.3, "text": "They said, well, we have to test in the integrated environment" }, { "start": 955.3, "end": 957.26, "text": "when all the integration is working, we can start testing." }, { "start": 957.32, "end": 957.64, "text": "So, well," }, { "start": 957.96, "end": 959.36, "text": "can’t we mock out all the integration?" }, { "start": 959.86, "end": 961.7, "text": "Not because we can’t create reliable mocks." }, { "start": 962.28, "end": 963.76, "text": "And the contract-driven testing," }, { "start": 965.18, "end": 965.86, "text": "first of all," }, { "start": 966.28, "end": 967.94, "text": "it’s an agreement between" }, { "start": 968.42, "end": 972.08, "text": "API consumer and provider of how the interface should behave." }, { "start": 972.38, "end": 973.86, "text": "And this is a slight difference there," }, { "start": 973.9, "end": 975.12, "text": "because people think it’s just like," }, { "start": 975.56, "end": 977.48, "text": "oh, we have mandatory and it’s a numeric field" }, { "start": 977.56, "end": 978.26, "text": "and we do these sort of," }, { "start": 978.88, "end": 980.7, "text": "contract is based on what we think" }, { "start": 980.72, "end": 981.68, "text": "should be in these different fields." }, { "start": 981.8, "end": 984.26, "text": "But you can actually put use cases in there" }, { "start": 985.18, "end": 985.62, "text": "We say," }, { "start": 986.1, "end": 987.06, "text": "okay, if I call you," }, { "start": 987.6, "end": 988.06, "text": "for example," }, { "start": 988.32, "end": 989.28, "text": "with this account number," }, { "start": 990.24, "end": 991.74, "text": "this specific one will give me," }, { "start": 991.92, "end": 993.84, "text": "account doesn’t exist, and if I call it with this one," }, { "start": 993.88, "end": 996.44, "text": "it will give me account, so I can model in some use cases." }, { "start": 997.36, "end": 999.68, "text": "So it gives me the opportunity to like, I can," }, { "start": 1000.26, "end": 1002.26, "text": "and then that’s all defined in tests," }, { "start": 1002.37, "end": 1003.5, "text": "I’m sorry, I’m jumping a little bit ahead." }, { "start": 1003.74, "end": 1004.84, "text": "That’s all defined in tests," }, { "start": 1005.39, "end": 1006.3, "text": "which becomes a contract." }, { "start": 1006.98, "end": 1008.88, "text": "So it’s like a test-driven development approach." }, { "start": 1010.26, "end": 1011.38, "text": "And then the provider," }, { "start": 1011.9, "end": 1013.3, "text": "the developer of the provider" }, { "start": 1013.3, "end": 1014.68, "text": "has to run those tests," }, { "start": 1014.92, "end": 1015.96, "text": "those contract tests," }, { "start": 1016.4, "end": 1019.46, "text": "on his API implementation before he does the integration." }, { "start": 1019.6, "end": 1020.06, "text": "So it’s before," }, { "start": 1020.32, "end": 1021.2, "text": "it’s part of CI." }, { "start": 1022.8, "end": 1025.06, "text": "Before the build or the deployment." }, { "start": 1025.689, "end": 1027.98, "text": "So it means he has to prove that he doesn’t break" }, { "start": 1028.16, "end": 1030.8, "text": "the consumer’s expectations of how the interface should work." }, { "start": 1031.62, "end": 1032.6, "text": "So I don’t get," }, { "start": 1032.839, "end": 1035.04, "text": "I should have a lot less broken integration" }, { "start": 1035.14, "end": 1036.52, "text": "getting to the integration environment," }, { "start": 1037.05, "end": 1038.78, "text": "which is what caused the bank a lot of problems." }, { "start": 1038.939, "end": 1040.54, "text": "People were like changing the interfaces," }, { "start": 1041.54, "end": 1043.98, "text": "deploying it into the acceptance testing environment" }, { "start": 1044.16, "end": 1045.9, "text": "where everyone was trying to test and boom," }, { "start": 1046.48, "end": 1047.92, "text": "10 systems were stuck." }, { "start": 1048.92, "end": 1050.74, "text": "And the other thing is then those tests," }, { "start": 1050.74, "end": 1053.78, "text": "I can create a mock out of those tests or simulate on," }, { "start": 1054.48, "end": 1055.56, "text": "depends how you talk about it." }, { "start": 1055.94, "end": 1057.62, "text": "And that’s based on those tests as well." }, { "start": 1058.36, "end": 1059.72, "text": "So I get a mock that behaves" }, { "start": 1059.92, "end": 1061.74, "text": "the way I’ve designed in the tests." }, { "start": 1062.34, "end": 1065.96, "text": "So I as a consumer can now develop against this mock," }, { "start": 1066.56, "end": 1069.42, "text": "which is giving realistic results based on our agreement." }, { "start": 1069.5, "end": 1071.6, "text": "maybe it’s not the final realistic result," }, { "start": 1072.0, "end": 1073.56, "text": "but it’s a lot closer than they are today." }, { "start": 1074.08, "end": 1075.62, "text": "And the tester can test against the mock," }, { "start": 1076.14, "end": 1077.66, "text": "which means I can decouple my testing," }, { "start": 1078.18, "end": 1080.02, "text": "so I don’t need to be in the integration environment," }, { "start": 1080.12, "end": 1081.48, "text": "I can be in the development environment," }, { "start": 1082.12, "end": 1085.46, "text": "and the provider can test his API on his own machine," }, { "start": 1086.46, "end": 1088.92, "text": "and the consumer can test in his development environment" }, { "start": 1089.06, "end": 1089.88, "text": "where the mock is running," }, { "start": 1090.22, "end": 1092.08, "text": "and he can do quite a lot of testing, I think," }, { "start": 1093.44, "end": 1094.72, "text": "like on the functionality." }, { "start": 1095.16, "end": 1096.5, "text": "So it means I get better quality" }, { "start": 1096.57, "end": 1098.02, "text": "into my acceptance testing environment," }, { "start": 1098.5, "end": 1101.62, "text": "because the acceptance in test environment was being broken by poor quality" }, { "start": 1102.1, "end": 1106.78, "text": "because nobody could really do any proper testing before they go to the integrated environment." }, { "start": 1107.76, "end": 1110.42, "text": "When I think of your example now," }, { "start": 1110.62, "end": 1114.38, "text": "and I have some companies in the insurance and finance branch too," }, { "start": 1114.56, "end": 1121.56, "text": "where they have all this integrated part and they know they should separate it," }, { "start": 1121.64, "end": 1122.42, "text": "but they don’t do it." }, { "start": 1122.8, "end": 1123.76, "text": "I think it’s..." }, { "start": 1124.02, "end": 1124.76, "text": "What’s your experience?" }, { "start": 1124.82, "end": 1128.28, "text": "How did you force this change?" }, { "start": 1128.66, "end": 1130.86, "text": "Because they did 20 years another thing," }, { "start": 1131.66, "end": 1133.7, "text": "and now you come and say," }, { "start": 1133.82, "end": 1135.94, "text": "okay, we split it and we make contract testing." }, { "start": 1136.54, "end": 1139.8, "text": "First step is know how to write a PowerPoint slide." }, { "start": 1139.88, "end": 1140.02, "text": "Yeah," }, { "start": 1140.3, "end": 1141.32, "text": "that’s a good" }, { "start": 1141.32, "end": 1146.2, "text": "Because the bank hired me to help with this problem." }, { "start": 1147.18, "end": 1149.82, "text": "And I think you need to talk to senior stakeholders." }, { "start": 1151.18, "end": 1151.74, "text": "I think anything," }, { "start": 1152.06, "end": 1152.54, "text": "as a tester," }, { "start": 1152.54, "end": 1153.7, "text": "you need to talk to stakeholders." }, { "start": 1154.62, "end": 1156.34, "text": "I think you had it in your presentation today." }, { "start": 1157.5, "end": 1158.24, "text": "Talk to them," }, { "start": 1158.62, "end": 1160.28, "text": "find out what keeps them awake at night," }, { "start": 1160.5, "end": 1161.4, "text": "what causes them problems." }, { "start": 1162.88, "end": 1166.06, "text": "Talk to them about production incidents and what impact that has on their work." }, { "start": 1166.28, "end": 1169.54, "text": "You really start to understand what situations they’re facing." }, { "start": 1170.44, "end": 1175.96, "text": "The senior management in a bank has a KPI to try and release more often." }, { "start": 1177.62, "end": 1178.8, "text": "They’re looking for a solution." }, { "start": 1179.86, "end": 1180.48, "text": "You give them one." }, { "start": 1180.58, "end": 1182.2, "text": "You give them a hope of a solution." }, { "start": 1182.98, "end": 1187.6, "text": "have to explain in a way that those really overloaded guys who are working at a high" }, { "start": 1187.76, "end": 1189.74, "text": "level because that’s all they can manage." }, { "start": 1189.9, "end": 1191.48, "text": "There’s nothing wrong with those guys," }, { "start": 1192.1, "end": 1192.16, "text": "but" }, { "start": 1192.22, "end": 1193.48, "text": "they cannot be in the detail." }, { "start": 1193.78, "end": 1196.62, "text": "You cannot give them a 20-page slide with the technicality" }, { "start": 1196.62, "end": 1197.64, "text": "of contract-driven testing." }, { "start": 1198.02, "end": 1198.46, "text": "You have to say," }, { "start": 1198.62, "end": 1199.48, "text": "\"Here’s contract testing," }, { "start": 1199.84, "end": 1200.4, "text": "and this is what" }, { "start": 1200.42, "end": 1201.06, "text": "it will enable," }, { "start": 1201.5, "end": 1205.14, "text": "and this should enable us to reduce the length of the testing in the" }, { "start": 1205.14, "end": 1207.08, "text": "release cycles.\" And they’re saying, \"Yeah," }, { "start": 1207.3, "end": 1207.42, "text": "okay," }, { "start": 1207.78, "end": 1208.0, "text": "approved." }, { "start": 1208.58, "end": 1210.7, "text": "Go for it.\" So you’ve got" }, { "start": 1210.58, "end": 1211.64, "text": "the support of senior management." }, { "start": 1212.1, "end": 1214.36, "text": "Then comes the hard part, the harder part," }, { "start": 1214.92, "end": 1216.78, "text": "because it’s not often easy to convince senior" }, { "start": 1216.86, "end": 1217.1, "text": "management," }, { "start": 1217.62, "end": 1218.82, "text": "it’s convincing everybody else." }, { "start": 1219.37, "end": 1222.4, "text": "And I have to say in this environment I’m very, very lucky that there’s a lot of people" }, { "start": 1222.44, "end": 1226.9, "text": "who are curious about this stuff and think it looks super interesting and want to be" }, { "start": 1227.08, "end": 1227.38, "text": "involved." }, { "start": 1227.86, "end": 1228.34, "text": "So that’s," }, { "start": 1228.5, "end": 1232.84, "text": "again, I’m not saying look, but maybe you have to choose your moment sometimes" }, { "start": 1232.94, "end": 1238.36, "text": "or engage people in some way that this is maybe going to be quite interesting." }, { "start": 1238.58, "end": 1239.38, "text": "It’s going to be good for them," }, { "start": 1239.6, "end": 1240.32, "text": "maybe for their careers," }, { "start": 1240.48, "end": 1241.74, "text": "that they’ll learn some new" }, { "start": 1241.9, "end": 1242.1, "text": "stuff." }, { "start": 1242.75, "end": 1246.76, "text": "And I’ve been backed up by a lot of good technical guys who’ve actually done the hard work." }, { "start": 1247.48, "end": 1250.32, "text": "I’m not sure if I’m allowed to swear on your podcast," }, { "start": 1250.56, "end": 1251.84, "text": "but I’m a high-level bullshit guy." }, { "start": 1253.52, "end": 1254.82, "text": "I understand the theories." }, { "start": 1254.98, "end": 1256.6, "text": "I can sell the theories." }, { "start": 1256.76, "end": 1257.9, "text": "I can explain the theories." }, { "start": 1258.0, "end": 1262.44, "text": "But it’s really good for me to have a couple of really good guys who really get into the" }, { "start": 1262.46, "end": 1265.3, "text": "details and then start showing the code snippets and all this business," }, { "start": 1265.52, "end": 1266.94, "text": "and then showing the" }, { "start": 1266.86, "end": 1270.68, "text": "demo and then all those technical guys are on board when they see a demo. Yeah, yeah," }, { "start": 1270.68, "end": 1271.94, "text": "yeah, we get it now. Yeah, we see it." }, { "start": 1272.2, "end": 1273.68, "text": "And I’m looking at the demo and I say, I have" }, { "start": 1273.72, "end": 1274.98, "text": "no idea what you guys are doing." }, { "start": 1276.02, "end": 1278.86, "text": "So you have to be able to communicate on multiple levels." }, { "start": 1278.92, "end": 1279.58, "text": "I can’t do it." }, { "start": 1279.94, "end": 1283.44, "text": "But if you’ve got a couple of people around you can get to that technical" }, { "start": 1283.54, "end": 1284.82, "text": "level. But like explain also," }, { "start": 1286.32, "end": 1288.74, "text": "and that’s the thing that I’m trying to coach my technical" }, { "start": 1288.76, "end": 1292.76, "text": "guys is to be able to explain the goal, the concept," }, { "start": 1292.98, "end": 1294.54, "text": "because they have a habit of jumping" }, { "start": 1294.54, "end": 1296.74, "text": "into the code snippets." }, { "start": 1296.84, "end": 1297.02, "text": "Yeah," }, { "start": 1297.22, "end": 1297.28, "text": "yeah." }, { "start": 1297.46, "end": 1299.62, "text": "And then you get a," }, { "start": 1300.12, "end": 1301.24, "text": "not a super senior manager," }, { "start": 1301.32, "end": 1303.9, "text": "but some middle manager." }, { "start": 1304.26, "end": 1304.42, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 1304.62, "end": 1307.16, "text": "And actually the middle managers have a more" }, { "start": 1308.54, "end": 1309.86, "text": "power to veto things." }, { "start": 1310.08, "end": 1310.2, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 1310.28, "end": 1311.74, "text": "Because they’re the budget owners at the end." }, { "start": 1312.12, "end": 1312.18, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 1312.4, "end": 1313.66, "text": "And you have to get them on board." }, { "start": 1313.78, "end": 1315.3, "text": "So you have to meet somewhere in the middle" }, { "start": 1315.3, "end": 1316.08, "text": "and talk to those guys." }, { "start": 1316.1, "end": 1316.5, "text": "Yeah, yeah." }, { "start": 1316.78, "end": 1317.78, "text": "So it’s about communication." }, { "start": 1317.88, "end": 1319.96, "text": "I’m not saying I’m super successful at it." }, { "start": 1320.2, "end": 1320.36, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 1320.62, "end": 1323.38, "text": "I can see some points where I’m not doing it very well," }, { "start": 1323.42, "end": 1324.56, "text": "need to communicate more." }, { "start": 1325.04, "end": 1329.38, "text": "Yeah. I think that’s how you do it. You’ve got to move some people" }, { "start": 1329.62, "end": 1334.96, "text": "somehow to actually be interested in this stuff and get their support and then you just" }, { "start": 1334.98, "end": 1336.6, "text": "have to be very, very patient and communicate." }, { "start": 1336.78, "end": 1338.7, "text": "And sometimes there’s a tendency from people" }, { "start": 1338.8, "end": 1340.56, "text": "don’t like change. It gets hard." }, { "start": 1340.82, "end": 1342.22, "text": "Yeah. And then they tend to want to give up." }, { "start": 1342.92, "end": 1343.22, "text": "And then" }, { "start": 1343.22, "end": 1348.3, "text": "you have to get them back on the train sort of thing and say, no, we’re not giving up." }, { "start": 1348.46, "end": 1349.0, "text": "keep going." }, { "start": 1349.36, "end": 1349.68, "text": "Yeah. Yeah." }, { "start": 1351.04, "end": 1355.72, "text": "When you’re now 18 months, I think you’re now in this situation" }, { "start": 1355.94, "end": 1356.58, "text": "trying to sort of," }, { "start": 1356.9, "end": 1360.7, "text": "what are your three key learnings from this time where you say," }, { "start": 1360.86, "end": 1360.94, "text": "okay," }, { "start": 1361.04, "end": 1371.26, "text": "this is... I think the thing I totally misunderestimated and didn’t do was to start measuring." }, { "start": 1372.6, "end": 1373.08, "text": "Because" }, { "start": 1373.24, "end": 1378.44, "text": "like you’re doing stuff and it’s not visible you’re doing stuff. And I think you need to" }, { "start": 1378.44, "end": 1380.02, "text": "I’m not saying like have some metrics," }, { "start": 1380.64, "end": 1382.08, "text": "but at least be checking what’s happening." }, { "start": 1382.52, "end": 1382.62, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 1382.98, "end": 1384.32, "text": "And then giving people feedback," }, { "start": 1385.68, "end": 1388.0, "text": "what’s happening, what we still don’t have and so forth." }, { "start": 1388.04, "end": 1390.6, "text": "And that’s actually something I’m starting to do now." }, { "start": 1391.36, "end": 1396.46, "text": "And I found out that actually a good way is to do interviews with test managers and so forth." }, { "start": 1396.46, "end": 1397.1, "text": "And just ask them," }, { "start": 1397.54, "end": 1399.88, "text": "so what are you doing about this? What are you doing about that?" }, { "start": 1400.22, "end": 1403.12, "text": "And that interview is a good moment to communicate with them because," }, { "start": 1403.34, "end": 1405.68, "text": "okay, they might have heard what you’re doing." }, { "start": 1405.92, "end": 1406.04, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 1406.22, "end": 1409.26, "text": "They didn’t really get it and they’re usually too busy to be able to do anything about it." }, { "start": 1409.58, "end": 1410.78, "text": "And you can give them like, \"Okay," }, { "start": 1410.98, "end": 1412.46, "text": "maybe if we tried that now," }, { "start": 1412.68, "end": 1413.24, "text": "the thing we’re trying" }, { "start": 1413.26, "end": 1414.78, "text": "to do, maybe that would help you.\"" }, { "start": 1414.78, "end": 1415.66, "text": "So that’s also..." }, { "start": 1415.66, "end": 1417.0, "text": "So I think that’s..." }, { "start": 1417.0, "end": 1417.68, "text": "That would, I would say," }, { "start": 1417.9, "end": 1419.72, "text": "not enough communication." }, { "start": 1420.0, "end": 1420.12, "text": "Yeah," }, { "start": 1420.3, "end": 1420.48, "text": "yeah." }, { "start": 1420.7, "end": 1425.84, "text": "And not enough trying to get feedback from people and seeing where we are and then saying," }, { "start": 1425.98, "end": 1427.62, "text": "\"Okay, this is where we fail.\"" }, { "start": 1427.68, "end": 1428.24, "text": "Oh, failing." }, { "start": 1429.44, "end": 1431.56, "text": "\"This is where we’re not progressing,\" I would say." }, { "start": 1431.56, "end": 1434.22, "text": "I don’t want to say we’re failing and this is where we are progressing." }, { "start": 1434.82, "end": 1435.9, "text": "Some of the things have worked very well." }, { "start": 1436.51, "end": 1438.04, "text": "We did business-driven development," }, { "start": 1438.28, "end": 1439.8, "text": "which was to use business requirements," }, { "start": 1440.79, "end": 1441.28, "text": "and we had" }, { "start": 1441.3, "end": 1442.9, "text": "super support from the business people." }, { "start": 1443.94, "end": 1446.08, "text": "And again, a little bit of..." }, { "start": 1446.6, "end": 1446.7, "text": "Well," }, { "start": 1447.14, "end": 1448.84, "text": "again, you see the opportunity." }, { "start": 1449.1, "end": 1451.36, "text": "I had a business, senior business stakeholder said," }, { "start": 1451.74, "end": 1453.24, "text": "\"My people really don’t have time for" }, { "start": 1454.16, "end": 1454.52, "text": "testing.\"" }, { "start": 1454.52, "end": 1457.8, "text": "The people come to them and say, \"We need testing now, and they’re busy with something" }, { "start": 1457.92, "end": 1459.28, "text": "else and they can’t just switch like that," }, { "start": 1459.6, "end": 1460.64, "text": "but we need to find a way.\"" }, { "start": 1460.64, "end": 1463.88, "text": "And I said, \"Okay, we can help, but we need to understand what you need and expect." }, { "start": 1464.38, "end": 1465.66, "text": "This is user acceptance testing." }, { "start": 1466.56, "end": 1467.72, "text": "And I said, where do we find that out?" }, { "start": 1467.72, "end": 1468.84, "text": "Do you have anything written down?" }, { "start": 1468.96, "end": 1469.98, "text": "Do you have some user manuals?" }, { "start": 1470.3, "end": 1472.62, "text": "And a lot of information’s in people’s heads." }, { "start": 1473.36, "end": 1475.34, "text": "So I said, okay, so let’s use the business requirements," }, { "start": 1475.62, "end": 1477.24, "text": "'cause it’s a new system they’re implementing." }, { "start": 1477.52, "end": 1479.28, "text": "Let’s use some business requirements," }, { "start": 1479.44, "end": 1481.02, "text": "'cause it’s a bank, they do business requirements." }, { "start": 1481.38, "end": 1482.3, "text": "Let’s use the business requirements." }, { "start": 1482.36, "end": 1483.56, "text": "And they said, yeah, yeah, super, super, super." }, { "start": 1484.22, "end": 1485.78, "text": "And the problem with that, we found out," }, { "start": 1485.86, "end": 1488.72, "text": "was when a business person talks to a business analyst," }, { "start": 1489.54, "end": 1490.28, "text": "and the business says," }, { "start": 1490.86, "end": 1492.18, "text": "ask what you need and what you want," }, { "start": 1493.42, "end": 1495.06, "text": "the business person tells the business analyst" }, { "start": 1495.11, "end": 1496.46, "text": "who writes it down quite accurately" }, { "start": 1496.82, "end": 1498.42, "text": "and then shows it back to the business person" }, { "start": 1498.66, "end": 1499.52, "text": "and the business person says," }, { "start": 1499.7, "end": 1499.78, "text": "\"Yep," }, { "start": 1499.96, "end": 1501.4, "text": "that’s exactly what I want.\"" }, { "start": 1501.4, "end": 1502.12, "text": "'Cause that’s what they said." }, { "start": 1503.16, "end": 1504.72, "text": "When a tester comes along," }, { "start": 1505.11, "end": 1505.46, "text": "they say," }, { "start": 1505.94, "end": 1506.08, "text": "\"What?" }, { "start": 1506.74, "end": 1507.54, "text": "\"What does that mean?\"" }, { "start": 1507.54, "end": 1508.9, "text": "They start asking these wide questions." }, { "start": 1509.02, "end": 1509.56, "text": "Why do you want that?" }, { "start": 1509.64, "end": 1510.22, "text": "What’s this for?" }, { "start": 1510.3, "end": 1510.82, "text": "What’s that for?" }, { "start": 1510.92, "end": 1511.52, "text": "Why do we do this?" }, { "start": 1511.58, "end": 1511.92, "text": "Why do we do that?" }, { "start": 1512.1, "end": 1513.2, "text": "How do we find out that?" }, { "start": 1514.04, "end": 1515.34, "text": "And that was a real learning curve" }, { "start": 1515.35, "end": 1517.68, "text": "for the business analysts and the solution architects" }, { "start": 1519.32, "end": 1521.179, "text": "that approved business requirements" }, { "start": 1521.18, "end": 1522.98, "text": "didn’t mean testable business requirements." }, { "start": 1523.64, "end": 1524.42, "text": "And I have to say," }, { "start": 1525.48, "end": 1527.14, "text": "I think it was painful for everybody," }, { "start": 1527.38, "end": 1528.74, "text": "but we’re actually now at the stage" }, { "start": 1528.9, "end": 1531.36, "text": "where we have testable business requirements." }, { "start": 1531.86, "end": 1535.8, "text": "And the whole business analyst organization in the bank" }, { "start": 1535.88, "end": 1538.1, "text": "is like an organization, like a community of practice," }, { "start": 1538.5, "end": 1540.0, "text": "are all completely on board with it" }, { "start": 1540.04, "end": 1541.48, "text": "and want to support the process." }, { "start": 1541.86, "end": 1543.28, "text": "So I would say that was a big success." }, { "start": 1544.0, "end": 1545.42, "text": "But it was like, again, a change," }, { "start": 1546.24, "end": 1547.28, "text": "looked like extra work," }, { "start": 1547.38, "end": 1549.04, "text": "but I think everybody got on board that it’s," }, { "start": 1549.58, "end": 1552.64, "text": "that we can’t expect testers to know if it’s working or not," }, { "start": 1552.64, "end": 1554.22, "text": "if they don’t know what it’s supposed to do." }, { "start": 1554.36, "end": 1555.02, "text": ">> That’s true." }, { "start": 1555.06, "end": 1556.86, "text": ">> So that was, I would say, the biggest success." }, { "start": 1557.18, "end": 1559.42, "text": "We tried to use a test pyramid more." }, { "start": 1559.5, "end": 1560.9, "text": "I think that’s worked very, very well." }, { "start": 1561.42, "end": 1564.86, "text": "We’ve switched a lot of UI testing down to API testing." }, { "start": 1566.36, "end": 1571.02, "text": "We try and do end-to-end testing because it’s a bank," }, { "start": 1571.24, "end": 1573.76, "text": "end-to-end processes is like 50 applications." }, { "start": 1574.799, "end": 1576.66, "text": "We’re trying to find a way to do that effectively," }, { "start": 1576.9, "end": 1579.0, "text": "rather than having a team that does the end-to-end testing," }, { "start": 1579.1, "end": 1581.52, "text": "which I think is a model in many Agile environments" }, { "start": 1581.74, "end": 1583.38, "text": "that every squad does their own thing" }, { "start": 1583.42, "end": 1584.48, "text": "and then there’s a team somewhere" }, { "start": 1584.6, "end": 1585.64, "text": "that does the end-to-end testing." }, { "start": 1586.08, "end": 1588.16, "text": "We’re trying to find a way to get all those different teams" }, { "start": 1589.02, "end": 1591.52, "text": "to cooperate somehow on end-to-end testing." }, { "start": 1591.6, "end": 1593.16, "text": "We called it parasitic testing," }, { "start": 1593.58, "end": 1595.32, "text": "that they would borrow each other’s testing" }, { "start": 1595.92, "end": 1597.24, "text": "to try and cover the end-to-end." }, { "start": 1597.86, "end": 1599.88, "text": "And I was quite worried about that one at first," }, { "start": 1600.02, "end": 1602.2, "text": "but the test managers have really gotten on board" }, { "start": 1602.26, "end": 1603.56, "text": "that it saves them time and energy" }, { "start": 1604.2, "end": 1606.84, "text": "if they agree between each other to do that." }, { "start": 1606.84, "end": 1608.02, "text": "So that’s working quite well." }, { "start": 1608.26, "end": 1611.62, "text": "but not yet on an organization level, but it’s progressing." }, { "start": 1612.48, "end": 1618.32, "text": "Do you have any achievement or goal you want to get in the next half year?" }, { "start": 1618.54, "end": 1624.64, "text": "I would like to see decoupled system testing in action." }, { "start": 1625.03, "end": 1630.52, "text": "That we had a system that was mocked out with mocks we created based on the contracts" }, { "start": 1631.6, "end": 1633.58, "text": "that had been agreed before we started in development." }, { "start": 1633.7, "end": 1637.9, "text": "And that would be for me like the happy place to get to." }, { "start": 1638.82, "end": 1639.48, "text": "Half a year," }, { "start": 1640.26, "end": 1640.76, "text": "I don’t see it." }, { "start": 1640.78, "end": 1642.3, "text": "It’ll take a year, two years." }, { "start": 1642.54, "end": 1643.42, "text": "It’s a big organization." }, { "start": 1643.6, "end": 1644.72, "text": "It’s very slow to change." }, { "start": 1645.22, "end": 1649.16, "text": "And you have to communicate with so many people to get that started." }, { "start": 1649.32, "end": 1649.9, "text": "But as I say," }, { "start": 1650.08, "end": 1650.98, "text": "it’s a journey." }, { "start": 1651.28, "end": 1654.74, "text": "We will make a follow up in half and one year." }, { "start": 1654.78, "end": 1655.58, "text": "Maybe half a decade." }, { "start": 1655.8, "end": 1657.44, "text": "Let’s meet again in half a decade." }, { "start": 1657.68, "end": 1658.82, "text": "18 months from now." }, { "start": 1658.84, "end": 1659.56, "text": "Yeah, let’s see." }, { "start": 1659.7, "end": 1661.52, "text": "We’ll take a look at that if it works." }, { "start": 1663.26, "end": 1663.5, "text": "Thank you," }, { "start": 1663.94, "end": 1668.06, "text": "Phil, very much for your insights from this journey." }, { "start": 1668.64, "end": 1669.64, "text": "I’m happy to share them." }, { "start": 1669.72, "end": 1671.0, "text": "Hopefully it helps somebody somewhere." }, { "start": 1671.38, "end": 1674.3, "text": "A lot of test managers I know are in this situation," }, { "start": 1674.5, "end": 1679.9, "text": "that they have this complex situation and they don’t see a way out." }, { "start": 1679.96, "end": 1681.9, "text": "Maybe they have now an inspiration." }, { "start": 1682.48, "end": 1683.18, "text": "Choose your moment." }, { "start": 1683.38, "end": 1684.08, "text": "You’ll see a moment." }, { "start": 1684.96, "end": 1685.34, "text": "When you think," }, { "start": 1685.54, "end": 1685.66, "text": "okay," }, { "start": 1686.48, "end": 1688.2, "text": "they can see that there’s a problem now." }, { "start": 1688.66, "end": 1690.22, "text": "This is the crisis moment." }, { "start": 1690.62, "end": 1692.88, "text": "This is a time we can all learn together." }, { "start": 1693.32, "end": 1695.58, "text": "I would suggest to anybody that’s trying to just like" }, { "start": 1696.14, "end": 1697.82, "text": "make small changes, move things forward." }, { "start": 1697.88, "end": 1698.82, "text": "Don’t expect miracles," }, { "start": 1699.74, "end": 1700.86, "text": "but wait for the crisis." }, { "start": 1701.02, "end": 1702.64, "text": "And that’s what I used to do as a test manager." }, { "start": 1703.46, "end": 1705.08, "text": "I used to join a project and they’d say," }, { "start": 1705.41, "end": 1706.76, "text": "\"Oh, we’ve approved the business grounds." }, { "start": 1706.88, "end": 1708.34, "text": "We’ve approved, the business have approved" }, { "start": 1708.38, "end": 1709.22, "text": "the specifications.\"" }, { "start": 1709.22, "end": 1710.54, "text": "And I was reading the business grounds saying," }, { "start": 1710.68, "end": 1713.66, "text": "\"No way, did anybody approve those?\"" }, { "start": 1713.66, "end": 1714.58, "text": "And the functional specifications," }, { "start": 1714.78, "end": 1717.16, "text": "\"Well, I can see there’s lots of problems there.\"" }, { "start": 1717.16, "end": 1719.579, "text": "But the project’s going and it’s got its milestones" }, { "start": 1719.58, "end": 1720.48, "text": "and everybody approves it." }, { "start": 1721.0, "end": 1723.02, "text": "And then I said, I can sit here and tell them" }, { "start": 1723.76, "end": 1726.24, "text": "that what they’re saying is not really true," }, { "start": 1726.38, "end": 1729.52, "text": "that it’s been signed off, but it’s not been approved." }, { "start": 1730.18, "end": 1732.44, "text": "And then you wait for the moment when the problems start" }, { "start": 1732.52, "end": 1733.5, "text": "and you say, hey guys," }, { "start": 1735.02, "end": 1735.86, "text": "why don’t we do this?" }, { "start": 1735.92, "end": 1736.6, "text": "And that’s the moment." }, { "start": 1736.6, "end": 1738.54, "text": "I would suggest you just have to be patient" }, { "start": 1738.68, "end": 1741.22, "text": "and wait for your moment and take the opportunity" }, { "start": 1741.34, "end": 1741.68, "text": "when it comes." }, { "start": 1741.84, "end": 1742.76, "text": "Use the momentum there." }, { "start": 1743.86, "end": 1746.56, "text": "Phil, thank you so much that you were here." }, { "start": 1747.12, "end": 1749.52, "text": "We put your contact details also in the show notes." }, { "start": 1749.62, "end": 1751.88, "text": "Maybe there are some reflections on that." }, { "start": 1752.76, "end": 1754.6, "text": "And yeah, I hope you enjoy the rest of the conference." }, { "start": 1754.62, "end": 1757.24, "text": "Yeah, it’s been a great conference." }, { "start": 1757.44, "end": 1758.0, "text": "I’ve enjoyed myself." }, { "start": 1758.02, "end": 1758.7, "text": "That’s true, yeah." }, { "start": 1758.9, "end": 1759.5, "text": "And have a good day." }, { "start": 1759.68, "end": 1759.82, "text": "Okay," }, { "start": 1760.0, "end": 1760.18, "text": "thank you." }, { "start": 1760.2, "end": 1760.42, "text": "Bye-bye." }, { "start": 1760.62, "end": 1760.82, "text": "Bye." }, { "start": 1762.539, "end": 1763.34, "text": "(upbeat music)" }, { "start": 1793.58, "end": 1794.98, "text": "(orchestral music)" } ]