[
  {
    "start": 1.119,
    "end": 6.48,
    "text": "Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed, the podcast for testers, developers and"
  },
  {
    "start": 6.68,
    "end": 12.12,
    "text": "software makers who live quality as an attitude. Get fresh ideas and sharp"
  },
  {
    "start": 12.36,
    "end": 18.1,
    "text": "insights to grow your mindset, to learn new methods and to drive real change in"
  },
  {
    "start": 18.2,
    "end": 23.08,
    "text": "how we build software. Better software and better teams for a better world."
  },
  {
    "start": 32.4,
    "end": 36.52,
    "text": "Hi, I'm Richie, software quality coach, keynote speaker and author."
  },
  {
    "start": 37.1,
    "end": 38.92,
    "text": "My guest today is Gitte Ottosen."
  },
  {
    "start": 39.64,
    "end": 44.6,
    "text": "Gitte is a test and quality coach with more than 30 years of experience in IT."
  },
  {
    "start": 45.48,
    "end": 49.02,
    "text": "She's known for her strong focus on value-driven software development,"
  },
  {
    "start": 49.55,
    "end": 52.2,
    "text": "both in traditional and agile environments."
  },
  {
    "start": 53.52,
    "end": 59.36,
    "text": "Kit is a dedicated trainer in Agile and Testing and a regular speaker at international conferences."
  },
  {
    "start": 60.4,
    "end": 65.74,
    "text": "She is also a passionate advocate for context-driven testing and helping teams develop a true"
  },
  {
    "start": 66.12,
    "end": 66.8,
    "text": "quality mindset."
  },
  {
    "start": 68.02,
    "end": 72.76,
    "text": "When she speaks, it's not just theory, it's backed by decades of practice."
  },
  {
    "start": 74.16,
    "end": 80.26,
    "text": "In this episode, we talked about the reality of cross-functional teams, quality engineering"
  },
  {
    "start": 80.26,
    "end": 82.82,
    "text": "and being aged, what does it really mean?"
  },
  {
    "start": 84.54,
    "end": 89.58,
    "text": "Is really everyone responsible for quality or does that mean no one really is?"
  },
  {
    "start": 90.68,
    "end": 95.24,
    "text": "Are we building deep skills in teams or just a long list of shallow ones?"
  },
  {
    "start": 96.28,
    "end": 101.96,
    "text": "And what happens when AI takes over the easy stuff and we've forgotten how to test the"
  },
  {
    "start": 102.1,
    "end": 102.66,
    "text": "hard parts?"
  },
  {
    "start": 104.34,
    "end": 110.58,
    "text": "We explored the tension between specialism and collaboration and why trying to do everything"
  },
  {
    "start": 110.78,
    "end": 112.3,
    "text": "can make us good at nothing."
  },
  {
    "start": 113.46,
    "end": 118.78,
    "text": "Gitte shared her perspective on the shift from testing to quality engineering, what"
  },
  {
    "start": 118.8,
    "end": 124.54,
    "text": "Scrum actually says about team roles, and why structuring thinking still matters in"
  },
  {
    "start": 124.6,
    "end": 125.66,
    "text": "an AI-driven world."
  },
  {
    "start": 126.9,
    "end": 132.94,
    "text": "You'll also hear how testers can drive improvement by asking better questions, supporting others,"
  },
  {
    "start": 133.3,
    "end": 136.1,
    "text": "and bring critical thinking back to the table."
  },
  {
    "start": 136.7,
    "end": 138.56,
    "text": "And now, enjoy the episode."
  },
  {
    "start": 139.96,
    "end": 142.02,
    "text": "Hello, Gitte, nice to have you on the show."
  },
  {
    "start": 143.02,
    "end": 144.42,
    "text": "- Hello, Richie, nice to be here."
  },
  {
    "start": 144.58,
    "end": 146.98,
    "text": "I'm really glad to get a chance to discuss"
  },
  {
    "start": 147.36,
    "end": 148.74,
    "text": "about some of my favorite topics."
  },
  {
    "start": 149.58,
    "end": 151.5,
    "text": "- Yeah, great, and I think the community"
  },
  {
    "start": 151.66,
    "end": 152.84,
    "text": "will like it very much."
  },
  {
    "start": 152.96,
    "end": 153.58,
    "text": "(Richie laughs)"
  },
  {
    "start": 153.84,
    "end": 156.54,
    "text": "We talked up front and there were so many topics"
  },
  {
    "start": 156.58,
    "end": 159.3,
    "text": "you can talk about, so I think we have to do"
  },
  {
    "start": 159.36,
    "end": 161.76,
    "text": "a lot of podcast episodes together in the future."
  },
  {
    "start": 162.54,
    "end": 163.48,
    "text": "We might do another."
  },
  {
    "start": 163.92,
    "end": 168.0,
    "text": "There's many things to talk about in our craft or profession."
  },
  {
    "start": 168.62,
    "end": 170.28,
    "text": "Yeah, that's true."
  },
  {
    "start": 170.9,
    "end": 176.98,
    "text": "Yes, we chose the topic about talking about the cross-functional teams"
  },
  {
    "start": 177.26,
    "end": 182.62,
    "text": "and how they are doing nowadays and in the last 20 years"
  },
  {
    "start": 182.7,
    "end": 184.44,
    "text": "and the evolution to up to now,"
  },
  {
    "start": 184.48,
    "end": 187.5,
    "text": "and if we are going to the right direction, so if I frame it."
  },
  {
    "start": 187.82,
    "end": 194.92,
    "text": "So, yeah, so you did business now a lot of years and decades."
  },
  {
    "start": 195.1,
    "end": 200.14,
    "text": "So what's, how do you think, how did it evolve the last centuries?"
  },
  {
    "start": 201.66,
    "end": 205.02,
    "text": "Yeah, actually, I had my 30th anniversary on May 1st."
  },
  {
    "start": 205.02,
    "end": 206.26,
    "text": "So I've been around a bit."
  },
  {
    "start": 206.84,
    "end": 212.02,
    "text": "And I mean, when we started with implementing Agile and Scrum in our,"
  },
  {
    "start": 212.18,
    "end": 216.94,
    "text": "at least in the company where I worked, we took our test team and we put the testers out."
  },
  {
    "start": 216.94,
    "end": 222.72,
    "text": "them, they became a part of this Agile team, but they stayed with their testing profession."
  },
  {
    "start": 224.3,
    "end": 228.98,
    "text": "We start talking about the T-shaped, okay, so you have to have some abilities that can"
  },
  {
    "start": 229.08,
    "end": 234.72,
    "text": "support your team with doing other things than testing. I became a Scrum Master as well,"
  },
  {
    "start": 234.94,
    "end": 240.12,
    "text": "and I helped the PO with the requirements. And that was sort of our way to contribute"
  },
  {
    "start": 240.12,
    "end": 244.24,
    "text": "to the agile mindset of delivering value."
  },
  {
    "start": 245.04,
    "end": 246.9,
    "text": "But in the later years, we've seen,"
  },
  {
    "start": 247.5,
    "end": 249.52,
    "text": "at least I've seen here in Denmark,"
  },
  {
    "start": 250.3,
    "end": 252.4,
    "text": "a movement in many companies starting,"
  },
  {
    "start": 254.2,
    "end": 257.579,
    "text": "I use the term, they're implementing mechanical agile."
  },
  {
    "start": 259.32,
    "end": 262.66,
    "text": "So what they're doing is they read the scrum guide,"
  },
  {
    "start": 262.92,
    "end": 264.86,
    "text": "actually, they don't read the entire scrum guide,"
  },
  {
    "start": 264.9,
    "end": 265.52,
    "text": "I know for sure."
  },
  {
    "start": 266.7,
    "end": 270.1,
    "text": "And then they just implement some roles and some ceremonies"
  },
  {
    "start": 270.1,
    "end": 277.52,
    "text": "artifacts. But if you ask many scrum masters today, and unfortunately a few coaches as"
  },
  {
    "start": 277.54,
    "end": 284.5,
    "text": "well, what does the Agile manifesto say? Or what are the 12 principles of Agile? They"
  },
  {
    "start": 284.58,
    "end": 290.04,
    "text": "don't know. And I mean, that's the foundation for the cross-functional team is the knowledge"
  },
  {
    "start": 290.12,
    "end": 296.98,
    "text": "of why are we doing Agile? And that is actually the problem is we are doing Agile. We are"
  },
  {
    "start": 296.86,
    "end": 302.12,
    "text": "not being agile. We're doing it like it's, it's just a hack we put on and then we are"
  },
  {
    "start": 302.16,
    "end": 309.26,
    "text": "agile. And then some reads the scrum guide because they say, Oh, but it says it's a developer"
  },
  {
    "start": 309.36,
    "end": 315.32,
    "text": "team. So since it's a developer team, we don't need testers. So we get rid of all the testers."
  },
  {
    "start": 315.36,
    "end": 319.46,
    "text": "I've seen companies fire all the test managers. I've seen them fire their testers because"
  },
  {
    "start": 319.92,
    "end": 325.14,
    "text": "now the developer needs to do everything because scrum says it's a developer team. But the"
  },
  {
    "start": 325.02,
    "end": 326.74,
    "text": "The thing is, that's not what Scrum says."
  },
  {
    "start": 327.84,
    "end": 333.94,
    "text": "In the Scrum guide, it does say it is a developer team, but it shouldn't be read as it's a software"
  },
  {
    "start": 334.04,
    "end": 334.34,
    "text": "developer."
  },
  {
    "start": 335.6,
    "end": 340.7,
    "text": "It's a team member who has some kind of specialist knowledge that can support the ability to"
  },
  {
    "start": 340.78,
    "end": 341.92,
    "text": "deliver value."
  },
  {
    "start": 342.93,
    "end": 346.4,
    "text": "So it could be anyone, including testers."
  },
  {
    "start": 347.89,
    "end": 350.1,
    "text": "So that's some of the anti-patterns I've seen."
  },
  {
    "start": 350.3,
    "end": 354.82,
    "text": "And now here in the later years, we've started talking, especially the last two years, we"
  },
  {
    "start": 354.86,
    "end": 356.9,
    "text": "start talking about quality engineering."
  },
  {
    "start": 358.32,
    "end": 359.6,
    "text": "And I like the concept."
  },
  {
    "start": 359.78,
    "end": 364.24,
    "text": "I've just, I got to start with saying that I love quality engineering and a mindset that"
  },
  {
    "start": 364.32,
    "end": 366.08,
    "text": "quality is everybody's responsibility."
  },
  {
    "start": 367.58,
    "end": 373.3,
    "text": "And I love the thought that if I have a high performing agile team, then the team takes"
  },
  {
    "start": 373.3,
    "end": 377.12,
    "text": "a full responsibility and they do testing as well as anything else."
  },
  {
    "start": 377.7,
    "end": 379.72,
    "text": "And they have the competences to do so."
  },
  {
    "start": 381.7,
    "end": 387.8,
    "text": "But if I look at the teams that I've been in connection with over the last many years,"
  },
  {
    "start": 389.86,
    "end": 391.48,
    "text": "none of them would be able to do that."
  },
  {
    "start": 393.4,
    "end": 397.04,
    "text": "They are hopelessly lacking competences in test."
  },
  {
    "start": 398.44,
    "end": 405.539,
    "text": "So when you start saying that the quality engineer is not a person, quality engineering"
  },
  {
    "start": 405.54,
    "end": 410.36,
    "text": "is something we put on top together with all the other stuff we are supposed to do in the"
  },
  {
    "start": 410.5,
    "end": 417.74,
    "text": "Agile team, then I worry. Because most Agile teams do not have the maturity to do that."
  },
  {
    "start": 417.94,
    "end": 421.94,
    "text": "They don't have the competences to do that. They need some kind of help."
  },
  {
    "start": 422.36,
    "end": 429.659,
    "text": "And do you think it's also a part of the responsibility? So if you say to give a team the whole responsibility"
  },
  {
    "start": 429.66,
    "end": 435.14,
    "text": "for something, nobody's doing it. So is this also an aspect of this?"
  },
  {
    "start": 435.84,
    "end": 440.18,
    "text": "I mean, that is definitely one of the... It's always dangerous when you say that everybody"
  },
  {
    "start": 440.18,
    "end": 445.82,
    "text": "is responsible for something, because who then takes that ownership? Do they as a collective"
  },
  {
    "start": 446.08,
    "end": 455.019,
    "text": "group do that? And not all do. I mean, let's face it, for many developers, tests above"
  },
  {
    "start": 455.02,
    "end": 459.44,
    "text": "unit testing and maybe unit integration testing, it's not their thing."
  },
  {
    "start": 460.26,
    "end": 462.46,
    "text": "That's not why they took the education they took."
  },
  {
    "start": 462.58,
    "end": 466.36,
    "text": "That's not why they have the skillset they have."
  },
  {
    "start": 466.36,
    "end": 468.38,
    "text": "They have the skillset because they want to develop software."
  },
  {
    "start": 470.62,
    "end": 475.84,
    "text": "And then there are people like you and me who loves the other part, who loves testing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 475.84,
    "end": 478.54,
    "text": "who loves all aspects of testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 479.7,
    "end": 487.02,
    "text": "And I think we should look at the teams and enable the team members to thrive at doing"
  },
  {
    "start": 487.12,
    "end": 489.26,
    "text": "what they do best and what their passion is."
  },
  {
    "start": 489.86,
    "end": 494.74,
    "text": "If you let people do what they're passionate about, then they become good at it."
  },
  {
    "start": 495.86,
    "end": 501.94,
    "text": "If you force people to do something they are not passionate about, it's not going to be"
  },
  {
    "start": 502.04,
    "end": 503.9,
    "text": "good, not the result at all."
  },
  {
    "start": 504.72,
    "end": 508.04,
    "text": "And I don't say with that that they shouldn't do testing, because of course they should."
  },
  {
    "start": 509.2,
    "end": 514.58,
    "text": "Of course they should do testing, but they need the skill set and they need someone to"
  },
  {
    "start": 514.659,
    "end": 515.219,
    "text": "support them."
  },
  {
    "start": 515.82,
    "end": 515.96,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 516.24,
    "end": 516.38,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 516.96,
    "end": 523.08,
    "text": "And I think it's on the other side, we load on the testers a lot of stuff they have to"
  },
  {
    "start": 523.159,
    "end": 526.46,
    "text": "do now if they think more quality and not just testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 526.92,
    "end": 533.679,
    "text": "So they have to take care about helping developers with their skills for designing unit tests"
  },
  {
    "start": 533.68,
    "end": 539.78,
    "text": "and integration tests and doing static analysis and take care of some code reviews and do"
  },
  {
    "start": 539.78,
    "end": 545.62,
    "text": "all the quality stuff. So the pure testing part, the concrete thinking about what we"
  },
  {
    "start": 545.64,
    "end": 547.98,
    "text": "can test, there is no time for that."
  },
  {
    "start": 548.22,
    "end": 556.86,
    "text": "No, no. And I mean, I think we should, first of all, I think it would be amazing if more"
  },
  {
    "start": 556.94,
    "end": 563.66,
    "text": "universities dived into testing as a profession and as a skill set than there is today. But"
  },
  {
    "start": 563.66,
    "end": 568.46,
    "text": "also universities recognizing that testing above unit and unit integration is actually"
  },
  {
    "start": 568.6,
    "end": 574.24,
    "text": "interesting and relevant as well, especially in which so complex systems we have now. But"
  },
  {
    "start": 574.76,
    "end": 583.86,
    "text": "as a tester in an agile team or as a quality engineer, yes, you do get a lot of different"
  },
  {
    "start": 584.42,
    "end": 591.66,
    "text": "tasks. And I hope that what we do is we help, we enable the developers. So for a period"
  },
  {
    "start": 591.66,
    "end": 600.74,
    "text": "of time, we will focus our energy into helping them become more mature in figuring out what"
  },
  {
    "start": 600.86,
    "end": 604.38,
    "text": "to test and becoming better at doing unit tests."
  },
  {
    "start": 604.8,
    "end": 611.68,
    "text": "And then slowly we can move away from that and take what is rightfully what we could"
  },
  {
    "start": 612.0,
    "end": 612.48,
    "text": "do best."
  },
  {
    "start": 612.68,
    "end": 616.0,
    "text": "I mean, I can't do unit tests, the unit integration test."
  },
  {
    "start": 616.06,
    "end": 621.96,
    "text": "I've never written a line of code in my entire world, but I can tell them about structured"
  },
  {
    "start": 622.06,
    "end": 622.44,
    "text": "testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 622.7,
    "end": 627.52,
    "text": "I can help them understanding that, and then I have to ensure that the tool set they have"
  },
  {
    "start": 628.3,
    "end": 630.3,
    "text": "will support them in doing what they're supposed to."
  },
  {
    "start": 632.16,
    "end": 639.04,
    "text": "So yes, for a period of time, but if you have an unmature agile team that has no control"
  },
  {
    "start": 639.08,
    "end": 642.04,
    "text": "over their quality, you can't fix it all at one time anyway."
  },
  {
    "start": 642.78,
    "end": 647.08,
    "text": "got to start somewhere and why not start from scratch, which is unit and unit"
  },
  {
    "start": 647.1,
    "end": 650.82,
    "text": "integration test. And then as that matures, you can move your focus elsewhere."
  },
  {
    "start": 650.84,
    "end": 652.46,
    "text": "We can't fix everything at once."
  },
  {
    "start": 654.7,
    "end": 660.36,
    "text": "I'm so I've we talked about from from I shaped to T shaped."
  },
  {
    "start": 661.88,
    "end": 667.26,
    "text": "And I'm so concerned that we that we are we are making people too broad."
  },
  {
    "start": 667.4,
    "end": 670.98,
    "text": "And when people get very broad, they don't get very deep in the competence level."
  },
  {
    "start": 671.9,
    "end": 677.56,
    "text": "There's a talk about pie shape as the mathematical simple pie or M shape."
  },
  {
    "start": 677.56,
    "end": 681.92,
    "text": "So you have three deep competences and that's doable still."
  },
  {
    "start": 682.56,
    "end": 685.52,
    "text": "But I've even heard people talk about comb shapes."
  },
  {
    "start": 685.52,
    "end": 689.88,
    "text": "So the comb you use for your hair and you think about the number of teeth, a"
  },
  {
    "start": 689.99,
    "end": 694.14,
    "text": "comb path, but then again, look at the length of those teeth."
  },
  {
    "start": 694.26,
    "end": 695.24,
    "text": "They're very, very short."
  },
  {
    "start": 696.03,
    "end": 699.22,
    "text": "So when we expect that everybody is supposed to do everything, then"
  },
  {
    "start": 699.46,
    "end": 700.88,
    "text": "nobody does anything really good."
  },
  {
    "start": 701.58,
    "end": 706.32,
    "text": "Yeah. And I think this is, this is then also right for the"
  },
  {
    "start": 706.46,
    "end": 709.14,
    "text": "developer as for the tester, because the developer maybe has"
  },
  {
    "start": 709.14,
    "end": 713.28,
    "text": "to do some test automation stuff for doing this and that and"
  },
  {
    "start": 713.33,
    "end": 716.94,
    "text": "write scripts and maybe support a business tester with some"
  },
  {
    "start": 717.14,
    "end": 720.28,
    "text": "ideas. And so it's always getting very broad then. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 720.56,
    "end": 722.52,
    "text": "Plus, they have the responsibility for the tooling"
  },
  {
    "start": 722.68,
    "end": 727.46,
    "text": "in the teams and for the pipeline. And if you, that's a"
  },
  {
    "start": 727.34,
    "end": 733.86,
    "text": "Danish cartoonist, who Comic Agile or Comic Agile, and he has an amazing drawing called"
  },
  {
    "start": 734.26,
    "end": 740.44,
    "text": "the Agile Team's Cognitive Overload. And it illustrates it perfectly, because it's not just"
  },
  {
    "start": 740.46,
    "end": 745.44,
    "text": "a tester who has a challenge, we all have. When we start saying that everybody has to do be able"
  },
  {
    "start": 745.45,
    "end": 752.56,
    "text": "to do everything, then nobody does anything really good. And that is not what we should strive for."
  },
  {
    "start": 753.1,
    "end": 759.0,
    "text": "We should strive for excellence in our fields and then we should be able to support our teams"
  },
  {
    "start": 759.64,
    "end": 765.9,
    "text": "with other things than what is our deep competence. And that is what Scrum says, by the way."
  },
  {
    "start": 767.3,
    "end": 774.74,
    "text": "And what do you think, how can we find this balance in the team between not going too broad,"
  },
  {
    "start": 775.38,
    "end": 780.899,
    "text": "but to have the expertise, but also to support this? Where is this, how can we find this"
  },
  {
    "start": 782.3,
    "end": 783.58,
    "text": "boundary over this?"
  },
  {
    "start": 785.14,
    "end": 786.1,
    "text": "I don't think there's one."
  },
  {
    "start": 786.96,
    "end": 789.98,
    "text": "I think it's really, really context dependent."
  },
  {
    "start": 792.1,
    "end": 798.86,
    "text": "For example, a tester like someone like me who has no technical background, I can't help"
  },
  {
    "start": 798.92,
    "end": 799.42,
    "text": "with the coding."
  },
  {
    "start": 799.68,
    "end": 802.46,
    "text": "I can't support the pipeline."
  },
  {
    "start": 802.48,
    "end": 809.5,
    "text": "I can't review unit tests because of course I can recode to some extent, but not with"
  },
  {
    "start": 809.52,
    "end": 811.02,
    "text": "the skillset needed for that work."
  },
  {
    "start": 811.7,
    "end": 816.46,
    "text": "But what I can do is I can support the product owner in writing good acceptance criteria"
  },
  {
    "start": 816.47,
    "end": 817.54,
    "text": "for the user stories."
  },
  {
    "start": 817.54,
    "end": 821.68,
    "text": "I can review the feature descriptions and support that the intake we do."
  },
  {
    "start": 822.2,
    "end": 829.8,
    "text": "I deliver my value outside classical testing terms in the beginning of the development"
  },
  {
    "start": 829.88,
    "end": 833.38,
    "text": "model by supporting the product owner doing good requirements."
  },
  {
    "start": 834.05,
    "end": 839.599,
    "text": "If you then have someone, another tester who has a technical background, who can do test"
  },
  {
    "start": 839.6,
    "end": 844.08,
    "text": "automation. He can help with that. He can help with unit and unit integration tests."
  },
  {
    "start": 844.7,
    "end": 850.32,
    "text": "He can maybe support the pipeline. He can do test automation, but because he is also"
  },
  {
    "start": 850.4,
    "end": 855.38,
    "text": "a good tester, he still knows about structure testing and test design techniques and exploratory"
  },
  {
    "start": 855.48,
    "end": 863.1,
    "text": "testing. So it depends completely on where you are, what you're doing. Sometimes if you're"
  },
  {
    "start": 863.16,
    "end": 867.739,
    "text": "sitting, I've been sitting on the customer side of projects as well, where I have no"
  },
  {
    "start": 867.74,
    "end": 872.48,
    "text": "discussions with any developers whatsoever, because there's a strict line there, then"
  },
  {
    "start": 872.88,
    "end": 878.2,
    "text": "my assistance is out towards the business, trying to understand what are the workflows"
  },
  {
    "start": 878.46,
    "end": 883.86,
    "text": "that this system should support, drawing the process diagrams, using them, of course, to"
  },
  {
    "start": 883.88,
    "end": 889.7,
    "text": "testing, but also introducing my vendor and thereby their developers into these different"
  },
  {
    "start": 889.78,
    "end": 891.84,
    "text": "processes so they understand what they built."
  },
  {
    "start": 892.9,
    "end": 894.66,
    "text": "Because that's what we can do as testers."
  },
  {
    "start": 895.08,
    "end": 899.9,
    "text": "We get a much better understanding than most others of what is the system actually going"
  },
  {
    "start": 899.95,
    "end": 900.78,
    "text": "to be used for."
  },
  {
    "start": 902.74,
    "end": 908.28,
    "text": "And I mean, we've talked about building quality and shift left buzzwords for the last, what,"
  },
  {
    "start": 908.56,
    "end": 909.0,
    "text": "five years?"
  },
  {
    "start": 910.36,
    "end": 912.38,
    "text": "And that's what it's all about, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 913.06,
    "end": 915.6,
    "text": "Understanding the value that we are going to bring."
  },
  {
    "start": 916.08,
    "end": 917.42,
    "text": "That's the first principle of Agile."
  },
  {
    "start": 917.76,
    "end": 924.88,
    "text": "Our first principles of Agile is to deliver value to our customer, to our end users."
  },
  {
    "start": 926.0,
    "end": 928.46,
    "text": "And if that's, then what is the best we can do?"
  },
  {
    "start": 929.8,
    "end": 932.96,
    "text": "Help up front, ensuring that we understand what that value is."
  },
  {
    "start": 935.379,
    "end": 945.159,
    "text": "So it's a huge deal, a challenge this one, because we need to make it visible for others"
  },
  {
    "start": 945.16,
    "end": 948.34,
    "text": "value we can bring other than pure testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 949.68,
    "end": 952.46,
    "text": "And that's what quality engineering really is about, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 952.58,
    "end": 957.1,
    "text": "It is about supporting the team in delivering value to our customers."
  },
  {
    "start": 957.54,
    "end": 960.68,
    "text": "So the mindset of quality engineering is amazing."
  },
  {
    "start": 961.44,
    "end": 965.46,
    "text": "We just have to remember that most of us don't live in the perfect world."
  },
  {
    "start": 966.76,
    "end": 967.68,
    "text": "We live in the real world."
  },
  {
    "start": 967.74,
    "end": 968.94,
    "text": "We don't live in unicorn world."
  },
  {
    "start": 969.08,
    "end": 976.62,
    "text": "live in the real world where things are not mature. Where the foundation we develop on,"
  },
  {
    "start": 976.62,
    "end": 981.14,
    "text": "the user stories, the feature descriptions are horrible, if at all existing, when there's"
  },
  {
    "start": 981.24,
    "end": 985.76,
    "text": "no acceptance criteria, when they just say, you just do whatever you did last time, or"
  },
  {
    "start": 985.76,
    "end": 991.68,
    "text": "you go figure out what you want to implement. Where developers, we might have developers"
  },
  {
    "start": 991.74,
    "end": 995.14,
    "text": "who's been sitting there for 30 years, who never worked with testing before, and who"
  },
  {
    "start": 995.04,
    "end": 1000.02,
    "text": "are not interested in working with testing. There's so many different ways, there's so"
  },
  {
    "start": 1000.09,
    "end": 1004.94,
    "text": "many different contexts. So we can't just say quality engineering, that's just something"
  },
  {
    "start": 1005.42,
    "end": 1012.9,
    "text": "all do. Start with figuring out your context. Yeah, I like the thought to align the work"
  },
  {
    "start": 1013.36,
    "end": 1020.44,
    "text": "with the delivered value in my role and from my perspective. So what can I do for the team"
  },
  {
    "start": 1020.4,
    "end": 1024.68,
    "text": "and for the product to deliver value to the customer or the user and so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 1025.089,
    "end": 1029.06,
    "text": "So I think that's a good thought to take into the project."
  },
  {
    "start": 1029.839,
    "end": 1035.86,
    "text": "Exactly. Have you seen the Jerry Weinberg originally defined quality and then James"
  },
  {
    "start": 1035.959,
    "end": 1041.26,
    "text": "Buck and Michael Bolton added on it and I love their definition because quality is value to"
  },
  {
    "start": 1041.579,
    "end": 1048.159,
    "text": "someone at some time who matters. So what is it we can do? We can get to know the people who matter"
  },
  {
    "start": 1049.52,
    "end": 1052.5,
    "text": "And we can figure out how do we deliver value at some time?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1052.92,
    "end": 1058.4,
    "text": "What is the right time to deliver this value and make it visible to our team what the value"
  },
  {
    "start": 1058.58,
    "end": 1059.52,
    "text": "is that we need to deliver?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1060.86,
    "end": 1061.3,
    "text": "Our why."
  },
  {
    "start": 1061.58,
    "end": 1065.62,
    "text": "I mean, that's where Simon Sinek, start with why, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1065.68,
    "end": 1069.58,
    "text": "Understand why we're building what we're building rather than start with figuring out"
  },
  {
    "start": 1070.36,
    "end": 1071.42,
    "text": "how are we going to implement it?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1072.36,
    "end": 1074.44,
    "text": "How is not interesting before we know the why."
  },
  {
    "start": 1075.76,
    "end": 1081.46,
    "text": "And I know it's a lot of buzzwords, but we should do that in practice."
  },
  {
    "start": 1082.3,
    "end": 1090.96,
    "text": "Yeah. And so when someone hears now this episode and says, \"Okay, yeah, we have especially this"
  },
  {
    "start": 1091.08,
    "end": 1099.28,
    "text": "problem in our team now. Who is in charge to change something there?\" Because when HR,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1099.28,
    "end": 1105.24,
    "text": "we have no project manager or something like that. I'm just a little tester here. So what can I do?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1105.24,
    "end": 1110.94,
    "text": "How can I bring this process improvement into life for my team?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1112.02,
    "end": 1120.16,
    "text": "I mean, in the new team app, they have developed two tools or methods"
  },
  {
    "start": 1120.36,
    "end": 1124.02,
    "text": "for continuous improvement that I like a lot, because I think"
  },
  {
    "start": 1124.54,
    "end": 1129.46,
    "text": "if you really want to move a team, then each team member needs to understand"
  },
  {
    "start": 1130.46,
    "end": 1133.22,
    "text": "what is their share in delivering quality."
  },
  {
    "start": 1133.96,
    "end": 1138.42,
    "text": "And they have made two different, they made quality to activity mapping and quality to"
  },
  {
    "start": 1138.6,
    "end": 1139.04,
    "text": "people mapping."
  },
  {
    "start": 1139.86,
    "end": 1144.8,
    "text": "So you make a workshop with your team, if we take quality to people mapping, then they"
  },
  {
    "start": 1144.84,
    "end": 1149.76,
    "text": "have six key areas, something about quality awareness, something about automation, something"
  },
  {
    "start": 1149.82,
    "end": 1152.22,
    "text": "about infrastructure and so forth."
  },
  {
    "start": 1152.28,
    "end": 1153.48,
    "text": "There's six different areas."
  },
  {
    "start": 1154.02,
    "end": 1155.96,
    "text": "And then you put the roles out in a matrix."
  },
  {
    "start": 1156.14,
    "end": 1162.279,
    "text": "So these six key areas down the first column, and then up in the top, you have the different"
  },
  {
    "start": 1162.28,
    "end": 1166.16,
    "text": "roles in a team, developer, tester, business analyst, whoever you have."
  },
  {
    "start": 1167.28,
    "end": 1170.3,
    "text": "And then each person brainstorms over."
  },
  {
    "start": 1170.48,
    "end": 1173.48,
    "text": "So what is my share in these activities?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1173.74,
    "end": 1174.82,
    "text": "And how can I add value?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1175.82,
    "end": 1177.06,
    "text": "What can I contribute with?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1177.54,
    "end": 1179.32,
    "text": "So you get that dialogue up and running."
  },
  {
    "start": 1180.4,
    "end": 1183.12,
    "text": "And then when you then have your whiteboard full of post-its with"
  },
  {
    "start": 1183.32,
    "end": 1187.7,
    "text": "things different people can do, you can of course not improve everything at one time."
  },
  {
    "start": 1187.8,
    "end": 1190.58,
    "text": "So as a group prioritize, where do we start?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1191.64,
    "end": 1195.94,
    "text": "You can do it on people or you can do it on the different DevOps activities."
  },
  {
    "start": 1197.04,
    "end": 1202.58,
    "text": "So what quality aspects are relevant in the different DevOps activities as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 1203.0,
    "end": 1207.12,
    "text": "And I like that because then it's again, it's the ownership of the team."
  },
  {
    "start": 1208.28,
    "end": 1211.58,
    "text": "Teams have to figure it out because they are responsible for quality."
  },
  {
    "start": 1212.94,
    "end": 1218.0,
    "text": "But it becomes transparent to them that they do have value to bring to the table."
  },
  {
    "start": 1219.92,
    "end": 1220.98,
    "text": "So I like those two."
  },
  {
    "start": 1221.82,
    "end": 1229.06,
    "text": "And it's enabling the communication between the team members to get this topic aware for"
  },
  {
    "start": 1229.06,
    "end": 1233.44,
    "text": "everybody in the project to do such a workshop or something like that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1233.92,
    "end": 1234.12,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1234.12,
    "end": 1239.62,
    "text": "And I like the fact that it's not something that is pushed upon them from the outside,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1239.74,
    "end": 1244.7,
    "text": "but it's something that it brings an awareness to the table for them as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 1246.28,
    "end": 1249.54,
    "text": "Because very often when people hear quality, they think testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1252.96,
    "end": 1259.28,
    "text": "Test is a part of, but not, I mean, there's quality assurance, there's quality control,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1259.36,
    "end": 1260.06,
    "text": "there's testing, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1260.46,
    "end": 1264.06,
    "text": "Quality control and testing are shared, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1264.73,
    "end": 1266.06,
    "text": "So there are many other things we can do."
  },
  {
    "start": 1269.92,
    "end": 1277.66,
    "text": "When I come back to the picture of the comp, where we have these skills, very short skills"
  },
  {
    "start": 1277.8,
    "end": 1283.94,
    "text": "there, I have to think about that we are talking now that AI will take over all the junior"
  },
  {
    "start": 1284.24,
    "end": 1291.94,
    "text": "stuff. And I see that these comp things maybe are things that AI can do too. So maybe we"
  },
  {
    "start": 1292.02,
    "end": 1298.0,
    "text": "need more of this expertise for specific topics. What do you think? What is your relation to"
  },
  {
    "start": 1297.92,
    "end": 1303.68,
    "text": "in this combination of cross-functional team and how can AI support us there in the future?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1304.36,
    "end": 1312.58,
    "text": "I think AI can do a lot, but I also think we need one of the most important skills we"
  },
  {
    "start": 1312.68,
    "end": 1313.4,
    "text": "have as testers."
  },
  {
    "start": 1313.4,
    "end": 1315.44,
    "text": "We need the critical thinking mindset here."
  },
  {
    "start": 1317.64,
    "end": 1322.839,
    "text": "I've seen in our own company some of the things we've been working with around reviewing user"
  },
  {
    "start": 1322.84,
    "end": 1328.8,
    "text": "stories and acceptance criteria, generating Gherkin scenarios. And that's, it takes a"
  },
  {
    "start": 1328.82,
    "end": 1335.54,
    "text": "lot of, it can do a lot, but it still takes someone to take a look at it. So is it right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1337.08,
    "end": 1344.22,
    "text": "I think it was World Quality Report that had a, some year recently had some numbers. And"
  },
  {
    "start": 1344.24,
    "end": 1350.319,
    "text": "one of the things they had asked different companies, what they saw as the role for testing"
  },
  {
    "start": 1350.32,
    "end": 1357.16,
    "text": "QA in the future, where they sort of saw the tester as not the shepherd, but the reviewer,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1357.46,
    "end": 1364.06,
    "text": "the gatekeeper of the quality of the output of the AI. But at the same time, in another"
  },
  {
    "start": 1364.72,
    "end": 1374.02,
    "text": "table, they had looked into the competence level of test professionals, and that one's"
  },
  {
    "start": 1374.02,
    "end": 1380.12,
    "text": "going down. So how can we become shepherds or guides or gatekeepers or"
  },
  {
    "start": 1380.3,
    "end": 1389.18,
    "text": "whatever if we don't know about testing? Our level of competences, I mean, I know"
  },
  {
    "start": 1389.28,
    "end": 1394.86,
    "text": "test design techniques sounds old-fashioned, but it's so important."
  },
  {
    "start": 1395.92,
    "end": 1401.42,
    "text": "If you want to do effective and efficient testing, you got to"
  },
  {
    "start": 1401.14,
    "end": 1405.28,
    "text": "know those. You've got to know your test design techniques. And I don't really care whether"
  },
  {
    "start": 1405.32,
    "end": 1410.44,
    "text": "you use them for exploratory testing, whatever you do, but you need to understand them. Sitting"
  },
  {
    "start": 1410.48,
    "end": 1414.86,
    "text": "there reviewing the output of a test design made by an AI without understanding the test"
  },
  {
    "start": 1414.86,
    "end": 1421.6,
    "text": "design technique, you don't add any value whatsoever. So we need to understand that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1421.6,
    "end": 1429.1,
    "text": "if we want to make a difference moving forward, supporting AI, we got to step up."
  },
  {
    "start": 1430.98,
    "end": 1437.22,
    "text": "We got to be professional. The teeth in our comb should not become short."
  },
  {
    "start": 1438.46,
    "end": 1444.86,
    "text": "We should not be comb-shaped. We should be maybe N or M-shaped, two or three deep"
  },
  {
    "start": 1445.1,
    "end": 1450.059,
    "text": "knowledges. Yes. But we are not supposed to be able to do everything because then we're not"
  },
  {
    "start": 1449.84,
    "end": 1450.6,
    "text": "not good in anything."
  },
  {
    "start": 1451.28,
    "end": 1451.44,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1452.04,
    "end": 1455.14,
    "text": "So, it can help, but we need a skill set."
  },
  {
    "start": 1455.9,
    "end": 1461.18,
    "text": "Yeah, I think that's also true because when we think about testing, it's building trust."
  },
  {
    "start": 1462.1,
    "end": 1468.96,
    "text": "And we as people, as testers, as human testers are there to give this trust that we can trust"
  },
  {
    "start": 1469.0,
    "end": 1471.68,
    "text": "our quality and the software we're delivering."
  },
  {
    "start": 1471.68,
    "end": 1477.56,
    "text": "And so we need this expertise to review the outcome from AI and all this stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 1478.64,
    "end": 1486.06,
    "text": "How can we give our stakeholders the confidence that what is delivered and sent into production"
  },
  {
    "start": 1486.22,
    "end": 1492.38,
    "text": "adds the value that they expect and is safe for them to use if we don't have the skill"
  },
  {
    "start": 1492.38,
    "end": 1500.02,
    "text": "set to test it, to ensure that what they ask for is actually interpreted into something"
  },
  {
    "start": 1500.14,
    "end": 1506.12,
    "text": "that makes sense and that whatever the AI does is following in that direction?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1507.64,
    "end": 1514.3,
    "text": "I mean, I've been playing around just with basic chat GPT for these examples where I"
  },
  {
    "start": 1514.38,
    "end": 1516.48,
    "text": "actually asked it to use test design techniques."
  },
  {
    "start": 1517.48,
    "end": 1522.88,
    "text": "But because I understand the test design techniques, I caught it in doing things wrong several times."
  },
  {
    "start": 1524.32,
    "end": 1526.58,
    "text": "But that's because I know techniques."
  },
  {
    "start": 1528.68,
    "end": 1532.9,
    "text": "It actually made too many test cases, way too many test cases from what I asked it for."
  },
  {
    "start": 1534.5,
    "end": 1540.5,
    "text": "So if we want to be sure that we have a good set of tests that can be supported with exploratory"
  },
  {
    "start": 1540.6,
    "end": 1545.18,
    "text": "testing, that can be a part of our regression testing, then we need to understand what it's"
  },
  {
    "start": 1545.36,
    "end": 1545.52,
    "text": "doing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1546.02,
    "end": 1546.16,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1547.08,
    "end": 1548.58,
    "text": "And why it chooses what it chooses."
  },
  {
    "start": 1549.98,
    "end": 1550.12,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1550.74,
    "end": 1558.62,
    "text": "And when I'm now a tester in this team and say, \"Okay, I want to shape my skills for"
  },
  {
    "start": 1558.62,
    "end": 1565.92,
    "text": "the future, what would you recommend to learn for a tester to give more value to the team"
  },
  {
    "start": 1565.96,
    "end": 1567.32,
    "text": "and for the product?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1569.06,
    "end": 1578.36,
    "text": "I have a long list. I mean, I said it already, understand your test design techniques, at"
  },
  {
    "start": 1578.36,
    "end": 1583.96,
    "text": "least a handful or two of those. Understand them to the extent that you can use them as"
  },
  {
    "start": 1583.96,
    "end": 1588.66,
    "text": "a part of your daily work and that you can see in the output of an AI if it's wrong,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1588.96,
    "end": 1592.8,
    "text": "because you know what's expected to come out more or less, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1593.7,
    "end": 1600.06,
    "text": "But also still get a better understanding of what exploratory testing is, because so"
  },
  {
    "start": 1600.16,
    "end": 1603.32,
    "text": "many people coins to say, okay, but we're doing exploratory testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1603.8,
    "end": 1607.8,
    "text": "But when you poke at them, they're not, they're doing ad hoc."
  },
  {
    "start": 1608.84,
    "end": 1614.12,
    "text": "cannot really because it sounds a bit like people think that with exploratory testing"
  },
  {
    "start": 1614.12,
    "end": 1619.94,
    "text": "we can just say, okay, we don't need structure or anything. Yeah, you do. You just don't"
  },
  {
    "start": 1620.02,
    "end": 1625.7,
    "text": "document it in scripted test cases, but you use your critical thinking and your new system"
  },
  {
    "start": 1625.82,
    "end": 1629.9,
    "text": "thinking, your new test design techniques to make the best possible test of something."
  },
  {
    "start": 1631.52,
    "end": 1637.04,
    "text": "you're still structured, you're just not documented. So that's important as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 1639.1,
    "end": 1642.66,
    "text": "Understand how you can use test design techniques as a part of documenting"
  },
  {
    "start": 1642.72,
    "end": 1650.14,
    "text": "requirements. So if you're going to support a new, many people implement"
  },
  {
    "start": 1650.2,
    "end": 1653.82,
    "text": "standard systems, right? They got to support a lot of different workflows,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1654.52,
    "end": 1660.64,
    "text": "business processes. How do we come from a process drawing to test? Ensuring that we"
  },
  {
    "start": 1660.52,
    "end": 1664.58,
    "text": "have a sufficient that we tested sufficiently and not too little and not"
  },
  {
    "start": 1664.6,
    "end": 1672.36,
    "text": "too much. Process cycle test. Risk-based testing. Yeah. Oh yeah. That's a good. Oh we"
  },
  {
    "start": 1672.46,
    "end": 1679.76,
    "text": "could do a whole podcast about it. So many says they do it and so few do it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1680.98,
    "end": 1685.46,
    "text": "They do the product risk analysis or the quality risk analysis but"
  },
  {
    "start": 1685.52,
    "end": 1689.72,
    "text": "that's not about it right. So how do we go from there to actually figuring out"
  },
  {
    "start": 1689.68,
    "end": 1694.7,
    "text": "how to address the most effective and efficient set of tests. That's also"
  },
  {
    "start": 1694.88,
    "end": 1698.52,
    "text": "because the thing is very often we test too much. It's not that we test too"
  },
  {
    "start": 1698.54,
    "end": 1702.58,
    "text": "little. We actually often test too much or test the wrong things too much, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1704.26,
    "end": 1710.44,
    "text": "So understand basic. I mean I just look at my bookshelves over here, right? I"
  },
  {
    "start": 1710.44,
    "end": 1716.08,
    "text": "still like physical books. So test the science techniques, exploratory testing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1716.44,
    "end": 1720.96,
    "text": "Understand risk-based testing. Understand the do's and the don't. Be good at"
  },
  {
    "start": 1721.04,
    "end": 1727.4,
    "text": "prompting. Understand how do I use CheckGPT or Copilot or whatever as an"
  },
  {
    "start": 1727.5,
    "end": 1732.54,
    "text": "effective and efficient tool to support my daily work without leaning back and"
  },
  {
    "start": 1732.66,
    "end": 1736.74,
    "text": "say now it just takes over I'll just copy paste and put it uncritically"
  },
  {
    "start": 1736.96,
    "end": 1744.64,
    "text": "without reviewing anything because that's my fear. Just look at my look at"
  },
  {
    "start": 1744.48,
    "end": 1751.56,
    "text": "But some of the articles we see being, people let ChatGPT write the article."
  },
  {
    "start": 1754.399,
    "end": 1759.86,
    "text": "So use it as a tool, use it as a support, understand what it's strong at and where it's"
  },
  {
    "start": 1760.0,
    "end": 1760.42,
    "text": "not strong."
  },
  {
    "start": 1762.74,
    "end": 1765.84,
    "text": "Yeah, I think we can learn a lot for the future."
  },
  {
    "start": 1766.3,
    "end": 1772.64,
    "text": "So these are all topics I want to mention in future podcast episodes too."
  },
  {
    "start": 1772.84,
    "end": 1782.02,
    "text": "So I think there is a lot of learning and also to relearn some things of my foundation"
  },
  {
    "start": 1782.18,
    "end": 1783.36,
    "text": "level or something like that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1783.52,
    "end": 1789.82,
    "text": "I heard about all these test design techniques, but that doesn't mean that I use them."
  },
  {
    "start": 1789.96,
    "end": 1797.58,
    "text": "So maybe I have to relearn them or more train them on the practical way to use it more in"
  },
  {
    "start": 1797.62,
    "end": 1798.5,
    "text": "my projects."
  },
  {
    "start": 1798.8,
    "end": 1801.58,
    "text": "Yeah, maybe you don't need to go and have another training course."
  },
  {
    "start": 1801.8,
    "end": 1805.28,
    "text": "Maybe you can read the material from the course you did."
  },
  {
    "start": 1805.4,
    "end": 1808.12,
    "text": "You can find some YouTube videos, you can find some e-learning, whatever."
  },
  {
    "start": 1808.94,
    "end": 1810.9,
    "text": "And then sit down with someone else."
  },
  {
    "start": 1812.34,
    "end": 1816.08,
    "text": "And say, OK, so this is the documentation we have."
  },
  {
    "start": 1816.5,
    "end": 1818.82,
    "text": "What technique can we use here? And then try."
  },
  {
    "start": 1820.4,
    "end": 1821.9,
    "text": "It's the best way to learn."
  },
  {
    "start": 1822.44,
    "end": 1823.58,
    "text": "I mean, I'm an old scout."
  },
  {
    "start": 1824.5,
    "end": 1825.78,
    "text": "Learning by doing, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1826.68,
    "end": 1829.32,
    "text": "We can read so many books, we can do so much training,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1829.48,
    "end": 1831.58,
    "text": "but what really makes a difference"
  },
  {
    "start": 1831.7,
    "end": 1832.96,
    "text": "is when we take what we've learned"
  },
  {
    "start": 1832.98,
    "end": 1835.08,
    "text": "and we then try to apply it in practice."
  },
  {
    "start": 1835.56,
    "end": 1837.42,
    "text": "If you don't, then learning is a waste of time."
  },
  {
    "start": 1837.88,
    "end": 1838.56,
    "text": "- Yeah, that's true."
  },
  {
    "start": 1839.64,
    "end": 1840.62,
    "text": "Yeah, great."
  },
  {
    "start": 1840.68,
    "end": 1843.96,
    "text": "I think that's a good word for the end and for the future."
  },
  {
    "start": 1845.58,
    "end": 1849.14,
    "text": "Thank you very much that you joined the podcast here"
  },
  {
    "start": 1849.4,
    "end": 1850.3,
    "text": "for the interview."
  },
  {
    "start": 1850.44,
    "end": 1853.24,
    "text": "And I'm very sure that's not the last episode"
  },
  {
    "start": 1853.29,
    "end": 1854.14,
    "text": "we will do together."
  },
  {
    "start": 1854.88,
    "end": 1859.32,
    "text": "I'll be more than happy to participate another time if we can find a funny topic to discuss."
  },
  {
    "start": 1859.6,
    "end": 1860.7,
    "text": "Yeah, we will."
  },
  {
    "start": 1861.36,
    "end": 1862.32,
    "text": "So have a good time."
  },
  {
    "start": 1862.76,
    "end": 1863.64,
    "text": "Thank you very much."
  },
  {
    "start": 1864.06,
    "end": 1864.5,
    "text": "Bye bye."
  },
  {
    "start": 1864.86,
    "end": 1865.12,
    "text": "Bye."
  }
]