[
  {
    "start": 1.5,
    "end": 3.84,
    "text": "Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed."
  },
  {
    "start": 4.14,
    "end": 9.82,
    "text": "The podcast for testers, developers and software makers who live quality as an attitude."
  },
  {
    "start": 10.44,
    "end": 23.02,
    "text": "Get fresh ideas and sharp insights To grow your mindset To learn new methods And drive real change in how we build software Better software and better teams For a better world."
  },
  {
    "start": 32.5,
    "end": 34.94,
    "text": "Hello Richie here Your podcast host."
  },
  {
    "start": 35.42,
    "end": 35.8,
    "text": "I'm happy."
  },
  {
    "start": 36.14,
    "end": 38.9,
    "text": "welcome you to another episode of testing unleashed."
  },
  {
    "start": 40.08,
    "end": 41.96,
    "text": "Today I talked with Kari Kakkonen."
  },
  {
    "start": 42.36,
    "end": 46.8,
    "text": "Kari has trained thousands of people, won awards written books and created"
  },
  {
    "start": 46.84,
    "end": 47.24,
    "text": "the Act"
  },
  {
    "start": 47.5,
    "end": 49.96,
    "text": "to Lead model – a fresh take on what"
  },
  {
    "start": 50.06,
    "end": 50.52,
    "text": "leadership"
  },
  {
    "start": 50.6,
    "end": 52.6,
    "text": "in software testing really means!"
  },
  {
    "start": 53.7,
    "end": 58.2,
    "text": "And this episode is about why testing leadership often missing?"
  },
  {
    "start": 58.64,
    "end": 61.22,
    "text": "Why is that problem for us in software-testing?"
  },
  {
    "start": 61.98,
    "end": 71.94,
    "text": "How Act To Lead gives structure into chaotic test realities… And why we need both the automation part and humans in a testing loop."
  },
  {
    "start": 72.96,
    "end": 76.66,
    "text": "How transparency can save you from quality black holes?"
  },
  {
    "start": 77.179,
    "end": 82.979,
    "text": "Are your ready for some sharp insights or really good dose of inspiration, so then rock n roll."
  },
  {
    "start": 83.22,
    "end": 83.64,
    "text": "have fun!"
  },
  {
    "start": 84.24,
    "end": 84.8,
    "text": "Hello, Kari."
  },
  {
    "start": 85.44,
    "end": 93.82,
    "text": "Good to be here for a week before we were on Bali at the ICTQB and"
  },
  {
    "start": 94.419,
    "end": 95.02,
    "text": "now in Belgium"
  },
  {
    "start": 96.3,
    "end": 115.419,
    "text": "testing retreats meeting such as short time And i saw there that you presented your book great topic to talk about here."
  },
  {
    "start": 117.66,
    "end": 117.74,
    "text": "Yeah,"
  },
  {
    "start": 117.78,
    "end": 119.28,
    "text": "yeah so I will give you the word."
  },
  {
    "start": 120.08,
    "end": 121.28,
    "text": "So what is this model?"
  },
  {
    "start": 121.36,
    "end": 121.679,
    "text": "About"
  },
  {
    "start": 123.179,
    "end": 123.44,
    "text": "or This?"
  },
  {
    "start": 123.759,
    "end": 130.6,
    "text": "So it's act lead and in background there Is that I think There isn't enough leadership In testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 131.06,
    "end": 134.66,
    "text": "teams are managing testing Teams doing testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 135.4,
    "end": 137.519,
    "text": "That's like a grass root of team level."
  },
  {
    "start": 138.5,
    "end": 151.359,
    "text": "It tends To happen quite well but its not really led as opportunities are created or culture for good quality and good testing is enabled."
  },
  {
    "start": 151.4,
    "end": 154.16,
    "text": "That sort of thing, it's not happening in a big-scaling company."
  },
  {
    "start": 154.34,
    "end": 174.859,
    "text": "so all too often when I go on that also my co-author Marco Rytkinen who I co-authored this book with we've seen over our careers you know... All to often if you go to higher level companies they actually don't know about testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 175.06,
    "end": 182.98,
    "text": "They realize, testing must be done and then maybe might require like a yes you need to do testing but than it's not really understood."
  },
  {
    "start": 183.76,
    "end": 187.88,
    "text": "And um... You could say that the more you understand about testing The better you can lead It!"
  },
  {
    "start": 187.94,
    "end": 193.4,
    "text": "The More you enable people To Do Good Quality and you Can Expect good quality."
  },
  {
    "start": 193.739,
    "end": 198.38,
    "text": "So you Need to Lead it Actively You Need to Make it Happen."
  },
  {
    "start": 199.26,
    "end": 202.28,
    "text": "so thats why Let's find this act to lead."
  },
  {
    "start": 203.64,
    "end": 204.9,
    "text": "And again, why act-to-lead?"
  },
  {
    "start": 205.299,
    "end": 206.28,
    "text": "Why do we call it Act?"
  },
  {
    "start": 206.32,
    "end": 213.64,
    "text": "To Lead is because if you want something easy to remember or something like that but its easier to implement as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 213.88,
    "end": 226.26,
    "text": "You need a short way of saying how can you make testing happen all over the companies and not only with testers minds daily routines."
  },
  {
    "start": 226.5,
    "end": 229.019,
    "text": "So that's why I act to lead because it goes, what's the vaccine?"
  },
  {
    "start": 229.14,
    "end": 230.68,
    "text": "That's a heuristic yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 230.72,
    "end": 234.92,
    "text": "so like eight characters and each character means something."
  },
  {
    "start": 234.98,
    "end": 243.38,
    "text": "Mm-hmm It has everything in it really mm-hmm uh... so A means add testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 244.079,
    "end": 245.44,
    "text": "do everything mm-hm."
  },
  {
    "start": 246.32,
    "end": 252.06,
    "text": "again testing is not only happening when you get cold i mean your test."
  },
  {
    "start": 252.14,
    "end": 257.76,
    "text": "testing is actually when you think about your budget of a software."
  },
  {
    "start": 258.3,
    "end": 265.16,
    "text": "Testing is happening, but what kind of vendor or supplier do I hire to create software for me?"
  },
  {
    "start": 265.44,
    "end": 270.72,
    "text": "Also, you need to include testing in that thought process or decision."
  },
  {
    "start": 271.5,
    "end": 275.46,
    "text": "and then you want to think about... What happens with production?"
  },
  {
    "start": 276.22,
    "end": 279.12,
    "text": "How do i operate my software again while testing?"
  },
  {
    "start": 279.24,
    "end": 280.58,
    "text": "You need to think abut testing as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 280.64,
    "end": 282.36,
    "text": "how can make sure it works?"
  },
  {
    "start": 283.16,
    "end": 285.26,
    "text": "check how can I test, it actually works."
  },
  {
    "start": 285.88,
    "end": 291.02,
    "text": "So that's A. then there is C. so c is context."
  },
  {
    "start": 292.72,
    "end": 299.9,
    "text": "testing isn't everything in the same and every place its different based on a context."
  },
  {
    "start": 300.06,
    "end": 303.1,
    "text": "you need to understand your context when testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 303.18,
    "end": 304.72,
    "text": "context is everything."
  },
  {
    "start": 305.08,
    "end": 308.5,
    "text": "You need to understanding what kind of business it is What kind of domain?"
  },
  {
    "start": 308.6,
    "end": 309.56,
    "text": "What kind technology?"
  },
  {
    "start": 309.86,
    "end": 310.62,
    "text": "What kinda team?"
  },
  {
    "start": 311.4,
    "end": 314.32,
    "text": "How much money Are we in a hurry or not?"
  },
  {
    "start": 314.64,
    "end": 316.62,
    "text": "And it really depends."
  },
  {
    "start": 317.3,
    "end": 320.08,
    "text": "You need to choose your testing based on the context of what you see."
  },
  {
    "start": 321.36,
    "end": 329.96,
    "text": "T is transparency, so whatever we do... We should do this visually and give information for everybody."
  },
  {
    "start": 330.16,
    "end": 334.16,
    "text": "We shouldn't hide if they are doing a lot of testings or little tests."
  },
  {
    "start": 334.52,
    "end": 340.68,
    "text": "uh, you know let's share our testing to everybody."
  },
  {
    "start": 340.74,
    "end": 351.26,
    "text": "If we find defects lets share but they have problem with quality because then you have better chances of everybody helping and pitching in, creating better quality."
  },
  {
    "start": 351.78,
    "end": 356.9,
    "text": "But I think there is also the part of aggregating this information."
  },
  {
    "start": 356.98,
    "end": 364.76,
    "text": "so we have a lot of information metrics and defects to make it more fitted for our audience?"
  },
  {
    "start": 364.98,
    "end": 365.24,
    "text": "Oh yeah"
  },
  {
    "start": 365.8,
    "end": 366.22,
    "text": "definitely!"
  },
  {
    "start": 367.48,
    "end": 384.5,
    "text": "Let's not give all details because people will have information overload but still let's not hide either make it available, let's create the dashboards and whatever kinds of easy to understand ways about our quality."
  },
  {
    "start": 385.32,
    "end": 392.96,
    "text": "And especially I think it is very visible if you have multiple stakeholders in a play or multiple vendors or suppliers on the Play."
  },
  {
    "start": 393.74,
    "end": 398.24,
    "text": "It all too easily has borders and boundaries but okay they do their thing."
  },
  {
    "start": 398.68,
    "end": 403.5,
    "text": "we don't know exactly what define in a contract what we need to do that part of testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 403.58,
    "end": 405.52,
    "text": "and okay let's just trust them on that."
  },
  {
    "start": 406.78,
    "end": 411.46,
    "text": "So transparency there means, you know lets not only trust but actually make it visible?"
  },
  {
    "start": 411.96,
    "end": 414.7,
    "text": "Would they require or would we get what is actually happening?"
  },
  {
    "start": 415.52,
    "end": 416.6,
    "text": "so thats the transparency part."
  },
  {
    "start": 418.0,
    "end": 419.82,
    "text": "Okay when we have fourth category then thats two."
  },
  {
    "start": 421.22,
    "end": 424.84,
    "text": "That means that We always need automation"
  },
  {
    "start": 425.64,
    "end": 425.84,
    "text": "And"
  },
  {
    "start": 426.16,
    "end": 426.66,
    "text": "human being."
  },
  {
    "start": 427.3,
    "end": 428.08,
    "text": "we need both things."
  },
  {
    "start": 428.5,
    "end": 433.24,
    "text": "So it's definitely, you can't have only one over two even for this."
  },
  {
    "start": 433.46,
    "end": 435.92,
    "text": "todays world is going towards automation of the time."
  },
  {
    "start": 435.98,
    "end": 442.0,
    "text": "so more and more test automation delivery automations CICD pipelines all that."
  },
  {
    "start": 443.72,
    "end": 444.52,
    "text": "It's not only that."
  },
  {
    "start": 445.1,
    "end": 446.28,
    "text": "You still need human people."
  },
  {
    "start": 446.96,
    "end": 461.42,
    "text": "You need exploratory testing you need creativity new ideas And these are coming from human beings to fit in both automation and human beings because you need both."
  },
  {
    "start": 462.86,
    "end": 464.48,
    "text": "So that's number two, what do we have?"
  },
  {
    "start": 465.84,
    "end": 466.86,
    "text": "L is learning."
  },
  {
    "start": 468.4,
    "end": 472.58,
    "text": "so it means that you can't know beforehand what is actually needed."
  },
  {
    "start": 472.9,
    "end": 480.62,
    "text": "You need the test And through that you learn how this software works and also make tests better."
  },
  {
    "start": 481.7,
    "end": 485.16,
    "text": "So you need to learn the test-and-test test to learn Both ways."
  },
  {
    "start": 485.48,
    "end": 491.22,
    "text": "That's very, very interesting because I wrote a blog article last month about the testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 491.82,
    "end": 495.06,
    "text": "is each deep profession that you learn."
  },
  {
    "start": 495.14,
    "end": 499.68,
    "text": "A software product deeply so you understand what it has to do?"
  },
  {
    "start": 500.24,
    "end": 510.18,
    "text": "It is exactly and we had just a nice discussion earlier today about our testers like very focused people."
  },
  {
    "start": 510.28,
    "end": 512.78,
    "text": "or actually are they broader."
  },
  {
    "start": 513.7,
    "end": 526.78,
    "text": "I think testers are actually very broad people, because they learn about the whole software and when you know where it fits in everything... If we need to ask one person how does this software work?"
  },
  {
    "start": 527.08,
    "end": 528.38,
    "text": "What is this software all about?"
  },
  {
    "start": 528.42,
    "end": 530.28,
    "text": "You should go with tester!"
  },
  {
    "start": 531.08,
    "end": 539.64,
    "text": "Because tester has a big picture having thought of from many angles how it should work and actually does work."
  },
  {
    "start": 541.12,
    "end": 543.5,
    "text": "Because the tester needs all this information for his work?"
  },
  {
    "start": 543.74,
    "end": 547.08,
    "text": "Exactly,"
  },
  {
    "start": 547.2,
    "end": 547.76,
    "text": "that's exactly so!"
  },
  {
    "start": 547.8,
    "end": 548.7,
    "text": "So let us learn in part now."
  },
  {
    "start": 548.78,
    "end": 554.84,
    "text": "I think its quite important but not to be most imporant because next one is actually i think we are more imporent on that."
  },
  {
    "start": 555.16,
    "end": 557.32,
    "text": "E in the tech."
  },
  {
    "start": 557.5,
    "end": 567.72,
    "text": "act-to-lead and thats enable testing enable quality culture and actually create the circumstances where good testing can happen."
  },
  {
    "start": 568.26,
    "end": 573.46,
    "text": "You know, make it a rule that you should test while making to rule what do?"
  },
  {
    "start": 573.66,
    "end": 576.82,
    "text": "You should talk about problems and failings on."
  },
  {
    "start": 576.92,
    "end": 577.42,
    "text": "learn from that."
  },
  {
    "start": 577.48,
    "end": 578.58,
    "text": "they're not blame people."
  },
  {
    "start": 578.86,
    "end": 592.52,
    "text": "yeah And every day doing bad don't forget to mention testing all the time or mention good quality, that's really from higher you go in a company into the top management."
  },
  {
    "start": 594.26,
    "end": 597.54,
    "text": "The more important it is."
  },
  {
    "start": 597.62,
    "end": 600.36,
    "text": "but people keep saying testing is important."
  },
  {
    "start": 600.9,
    "end": 602.66,
    "text": "we need to think about quality as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 602.98,
    "end": 616.5,
    "text": "I mean It doesn't mean that CEO of a company would be doing hands-on testing But they should actually talking Testing and then quality, you know not letting it be responsibility of a team only."
  },
  {
    "start": 617.42,
    "end": 621.64,
    "text": "I think that's a big cultural change for a lot of companies to go there."
  },
  {
    "start": 621.76,
    "end": 622.52,
    "text": "Yeah"
  },
  {
    "start": 622.78,
    "end": 627.92,
    "text": "It is definitely It's too easy to say but yeah we have some testers they do what?"
  },
  {
    "start": 628.74,
    "end": 632.84,
    "text": "And when you realize so you ask let's say CTO."
  },
  {
    "start": 633.9,
    "end": 634.42,
    "text": "So What Do We Do?"
  },
  {
    "start": 635.86,
    "end": 636.92,
    "text": "I don't Know."
  },
  {
    "start": 637.2,
    "end": 640.14,
    "text": "I suppose they run on this automation and do some checks."
  },
  {
    "start": 640.94,
    "end": 643.7,
    "text": "Okay, that's a good start but it's not really enough."
  },
  {
    "start": 644.26,
    "end": 647.44,
    "text": "because again if you would ask okay so what do you think the developers to?"
  },
  {
    "start": 647.7,
    "end": 649.28,
    "text": "or maybe we're different architects too?"
  },
  {
    "start": 649.8,
    "end": 651.5,
    "text": "Actually the answers will be more precise."
  },
  {
    "start": 651.54,
    "end": 652.82,
    "text": "They actually Do know."
  },
  {
    "start": 653.68,
    "end": 653.86,
    "text": "How."
  },
  {
    "start": 654.28,
    "end": 654.8,
    "text": "how are you doing?"
  },
  {
    "start": 654.88,
    "end": 660.4,
    "text": "create code all your use very management though You used Python there and see their in Java there And then whatever."
  },
  {
    "start": 661.98,
    "end": 664.76,
    "text": "So actually the answer is using more precisely."
  },
  {
    "start": 665.86,
    "end": 668.74,
    "text": "So I think it just proves that there's a lack of testing knowledge."
  },
  {
    "start": 669.04,
    "end": 669.5,
    "text": "Yeah,"
  },
  {
    "start": 669.56,
    "end": 671.26,
    "text": "sorry yeah but can be fixed."
  },
  {
    "start": 671.62,
    "end": 673.14,
    "text": "um what else we have?"
  },
  {
    "start": 673.26,
    "end": 676.6,
    "text": "uh um A adaptive risks."
  },
  {
    "start": 677.5,
    "end": 681.98,
    "text": "so uh all the testing actually should be based on risk."
  },
  {
    "start": 682.04,
    "end": 689.86,
    "text": "so high focus risk areas more testing quite simple and and so that's really the last A adaptive risk."
  },
  {
    "start": 689.94,
    "end": 697.48,
    "text": "And then also if you have D That one is i think secret most important after the E, so that's diversity."
  },
  {
    "start": 698.62,
    "end": 704.18,
    "text": "Meaning testing needs to be diverse and in diversity every possible way."
  },
  {
    "start": 704.4,
    "end": 721.56,
    "text": "So use multiple test techniques Use multiple people Use multiple test approaches Use multiple kinds of people Multiple suppliers Multiple environments Anything multiple And the more is better basically."
  },
  {
    "start": 722.28,
    "end": 731.96,
    "text": "So you can't choose only one approach because this might be thinking of a manager somewhere, but okay give me the best choice."
  },
  {
    "start": 732.64,
    "end": 736.52,
    "text": "I will take the best something tool or best something approach."
  },
  {
    "start": 737.06,
    "end": 738.92,
    "text": "we will use this automation for everything."
  },
  {
    "start": 739.68,
    "end": 747.48,
    "text": "And it's not like that because you need all kinds of things and different angles support each other, then actually have good quality."
  },
  {
    "start": 748.58,
    "end": 758.94,
    "text": "I often the picture if your in a cave with flashlights just put the flashlight as you see one spot there but don't see the caves."
  },
  {
    "start": 759.02,
    "end": 764.42,
    "text": "so look at different angels to get the whole picture."
  },
  {
    "start": 765.36,
    "end": 766.58,
    "text": "Yeah, it's a good analogy."
  },
  {
    "start": 769.64,
    "end": 772.5,
    "text": "So that is the actual lead."
  },
  {
    "start": 773.1,
    "end": 774.72,
    "text": "so there are not too many things there."
  },
  {
    "start": 775.06,
    "end": 783.36,
    "text": "because I think in the end while you go into companies yeah You don't need to know with detail of testing but do we have enough?"
  },
  {
    "start": 783.5,
    "end": 785.08,
    "text": "so what can be active?"
  },
  {
    "start": 785.86,
    "end": 792.52,
    "text": "In relationship between business and running company and then requiring software."
  },
  {
    "start": 792.66,
    "end": 798.56,
    "text": "And when somebody is creating with software, testing with software you need to know enough to be active there."
  },
  {
    "start": 799.44,
    "end": 799.54,
    "text": "so..."
  },
  {
    "start": 801.66,
    "end": 802.24,
    "text": "This acronym."
  },
  {
    "start": 803.76,
    "end": 810.08,
    "text": "I see that also as a checklist for the few at my company in my organization."
  },
  {
    "start": 813.06,
    "end": 814.82,
    "text": "Who is in charge of this job?"
  },
  {
    "start": 814.9,
    "end": 820.84,
    "text": "Is it the test manager who's looking at this or the CEO, CTO or a consultancy."
  },
  {
    "start": 824.24,
    "end": 825.22,
    "text": "It depends on context."
  },
  {
    "start": 827.56,
    "end": 839.66,
    "text": "but I would say that there are demands for role in big company in charge of testing, so that could be head-of-testing for example."
  },
  {
    "start": 840.34,
    "end": 851.0,
    "text": "So all too often there is VCDO who maybe used to be an architect or developer and oh... Maybe just a business guy?"
  },
  {
    "start": 852.18,
    "end": 852.8,
    "text": "And that's fine."
  },
  {
    "start": 854.7,
    "end": 857.82,
    "text": "but you know somebody needs to be taking care of testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 858.44,
    "end": 866.38,
    "text": "because if testing happens only in those teams self-organizing only, which is great and fine."
  },
  {
    "start": 866.44,
    "end": 870.32,
    "text": "And I believe in autonomous teams quite a bit that's really good."
  },
  {
    "start": 870.7,
    "end": 877.6,
    "text": "but if all the teams are taking care of their own testing they have different ways to doing it In big company."
  },
  {
    "start": 877.64,
    "end": 878.74,
    "text": "now i don't think thats enough."
  },
  {
    "start": 878.88,
    "end": 893.22,
    "text": "so you also need somebody who is in charge of testing wrong But its taken care That Testing happens All over the software."
  },
  {
    "start": 894.14,
    "end": 895.76,
    "text": "and well, develop a software."
  },
  {
    "start": 896.94,
    "end": 898.26,
    "text": "that is much needed."
  },
  {
    "start": 899.16,
    "end": 911.22,
    "text": "And so it comes down to having somebody there like head of testing... Having some general testing guidelines not really dictating same rules to all teams but giving minimums."
  },
  {
    "start": 911.28,
    "end": 913.82,
    "text": "okay you need to do as at least that much"
  },
  {
    "start": 914.12,
    "end": 914.8,
    "text": "yeah..and"
  },
  {
    "start": 914.84,
    "end": 927.9,
    "text": "then you need find your ways in your team with new context how actually apply those on and could be testing communities you know, people sharing their ideas with other people interested in testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 927.96,
    "end": 933.82,
    "text": "and I'm saying testing not testers because i think testing is also something that anybody can actually do."
  },
  {
    "start": 933.92,
    "end": 934.42,
    "text": "Yeah"
  },
  {
    "start": 934.46,
    "end": 949.76,
    "text": "yeah That's so true yeah So uh You wrote a book about this model And how deep to go into each of these segments and what do you deliver with EG for enabling this stuff?"
  },
  {
    "start": 950.26,
    "end": 953.92,
    "text": "Quite a bit actually, so it's actually suppressing heavy book."
  },
  {
    "start": 954.32,
    "end": 962.56,
    "text": "So its subtitle is software testing leadership handbook And there really lots of information like almost three hundred pages."
  },
  {
    "start": 963.86,
    "end": 972.82,
    "text": "It made in the form questions because very often when want to find answers generally exactly What do you need?"
  },
  {
    "start": 972.94,
    "end": 974.3,
    "text": "but you haven't your question?"
  },
  {
    "start": 975.0,
    "end": 976.16,
    "text": "So it is actually questions."
  },
  {
    "start": 976.22,
    "end": 981.06,
    "text": "How do I make testing more diverse or how do i cope with testing terms, and how Do I?"
  },
  {
    "start": 982.54,
    "end": 985.1,
    "text": "Recruit testers so things like that."
  },
  {
    "start": 985.16,
    "end": 989.16,
    "text": "so it actually goes more deeper than just those eight letters."
  },
  {
    "start": 989.26,
    "end": 991.4,
    "text": "But the eight letters are good."
  },
  {
    "start": 991.98,
    "end": 992.32,
    "text": "Yes"
  },
  {
    "start": 992.36,
    "end": 996.18,
    "text": "start yeah And they we're gonna Make you think about these things."
  },
  {
    "start": 996.92,
    "end": 998.08,
    "text": "and so the book is actually."
  },
  {
    "start": 999.2,
    "end": 1000.02,
    "text": "It goes really deep."
  },
  {
    "start": 1000.24,
    "end": 1001.34,
    "text": "Yeah, yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1001.38,
    "end": 1018.82,
    "text": "and even if we actually wrote it with the CTO or CXO level person stereotype in our minds And you've seen lots of people on that level It actually turns out We wrote so much content."
  },
  {
    "start": 1018.92,
    "end": 1023.82,
    "text": "but it works also for any test manager or tester Or even a student in IT"
  },
  {
    "start": 1024.56,
    "end": 1024.839,
    "text": "who needs"
  },
  {
    "start": 1024.92,
    "end": 1026.8,
    "text": "to know and learn their bit of testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1028.399,
    "end": 1031.439,
    "text": "Yeah, I think...I like the approach to make it with questions sort of."
  },
  {
    "start": 1031.48,
    "end": 1041.5,
    "text": "Like a big FAQ because if we go to test them or look at that you have questions and ...if i had an normal book so i'd read everything and transform for myself."
  },
  {
    "start": 1041.619,
    "end": 1044.3,
    "text": "but this question can more relate to content"
  },
  {
    "start": 1044.359,
    "end": 1044.719,
    "text": "Exactly!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1045.219,
    "end": 1046.56,
    "text": "And if your are in a hurry?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1046.699,
    "end": 1052.32,
    "text": "If you're busy person..and i appreciate what any let's say CEO is very busy person."
  },
  {
    "start": 1053.179,
    "end": 1058.5,
    "text": "I don't expect every CEO to read every detail about everything that happens in their company."
  },
  {
    "start": 1059.58,
    "end": 1072.679,
    "text": "But, i'm sure they have questions and i am sure we can read the summary... ...and deep dive into something where there is a worry of something And in this book there's an answer for it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1073.08,
    "end": 1078.439,
    "text": "It doesn't yet teach you how to test."
  },
  {
    "start": 1079.219,
    "end": 1084.24,
    "text": "So actually on purpose cut away all content like that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1084.3,
    "end": 1093.6,
    "text": "So when he was writing it, we noticed now be actually running towards the tester audience and it goes more technical than two-technical yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1093.639,
    "end": 1101.82,
    "text": "And they actually ditched maybe half of the chapters because not right where CXO level kind thinking or need."
  },
  {
    "start": 1104.6,
    "end": 1112.459,
    "text": "Yeah, Carrie very much thank you for joining this podcast here and the testing retreat was interesting."
  },
  {
    "start": 1112.5,
    "end": 1120.04,
    "text": "it gives me another perspective like we said on how to implement testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1120.159,
    "end": 1121.919,
    "text": "so thank Thank you so much."
  },
  {
    "start": 1123.48,
    "end": 1127.659,
    "text": "And yeah, we will see what our testing retreats are bringing to the next."
  },
  {
    "start": 1128.76,
    "end": 1129.74,
    "text": "It'll be a lot more fun!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1130.0,
    "end": 1130.959,
    "text": "Yeah"
  },
  {
    "start": 1131.12,
    "end": 1133.899,
    "text": "I think so thankyou."
  }
]