[
  {
    "start": 0.02,
    "end": 4.02,
    "text": "Hi, I'm Richie, software quality coach, keynote speaker and author."
  },
  {
    "start": 4.92,
    "end": 11.7,
    "text": "My guest today is Derk-Jan de Grood. Derk-Jan is a principal consultant and Agile inspirator."
  },
  {
    "start": 12.76,
    "end": 18.7,
    "text": "He's known for helping organizations take the next step in their Agile journey, not just with"
  },
  {
    "start": 18.96,
    "end": 25.359,
    "text": "theory, but with hands-on practices that deliver real value. As an RTE coach and value delivery"
  },
  {
    "start": 25.36,
    "end": 31.0,
    "text": "expert who works with leaders, scrum masters and teams to drive agile transformations that stick."
  },
  {
    "start": 32.5,
    "end": 37.44,
    "text": "He's a respected international speaker, a columnist and the author of several best-selling"
  },
  {
    "start": 37.64,
    "end": 43.86,
    "text": "books, including his newest one on surfing the waves of agile. We first met at the testing"
  },
  {
    "start": 44.1,
    "end": 50.92,
    "text": "retreat last year and had some great discussions about agile quality. In this episode, we talked"
  },
  {
    "start": 50.8,
    "end": 56.78,
    "text": "We talked about Agile quality too, and what it actually takes to make it work in real teams."
  },
  {
    "start": 57.88,
    "end": 62.02,
    "text": "Are we living agility or just following frameworks like a checklist?"
  },
  {
    "start": 63.14,
    "end": 67.74,
    "text": "What happens when everyone is responsible for quality but no one really owns it?"
  },
  {
    "start": 69.02,
    "end": 75.1,
    "text": "And why are we still surprised when developers test faster than a single tester can ever catch up?"
  },
  {
    "start": 76.8,
    "end": 82.26,
    "text": "We explored how to break testing and improvement down into small actionable practices."
  },
  {
    "start": 83.14,
    "end": 89.08,
    "text": "Deg-Yan shared how to scale skills, not just frameworks, and how to connect strategy and"
  },
  {
    "start": 89.18,
    "end": 91.68,
    "text": "team-level action through shared responsibility."
  },
  {
    "start": 92.98,
    "end": 98.2,
    "text": "And we looked at where quality gets lost today, and how the biggest blockers often sit in"
  },
  {
    "start": 98.2,
    "end": 100.28,
    "text": "the management level, not in the team."
  },
  {
    "start": 101.12,
    "end": 106.78,
    "text": "And a little goodie, if you listen to this episode, there is a chance to win a book from"
  },
  {
    "start": 106.78,
    "end": 112.96,
    "text": "Jan, his newest book, just follow the link in the show notes. And now enjoy the episode."
  },
  {
    "start": 114.18,
    "end": 117.04,
    "text": "Hi, Derk-Jan, nice to have you on the show here."
  },
  {
    "start": 117.74,
    "end": 121.5,
    "text": "Very good to have you here as well. I'm glad finally we found the opportunity to meet,"
  },
  {
    "start": 121.72,
    "end": 122.56,
    "text": "although it's online."
  },
  {
    "start": 122.86,
    "end": 129.259,
    "text": "Yeah, yeah. We met in person last year on the testing retreat. And then we get in contact and"
  },
  {
    "start": 129.3,
    "end": 136.76,
    "text": "I said, Okay, you have to come to my podcast here. Because, yeah, you're a brilliant mind and have a"
  },
  {
    "start": 136.76,
    "end": 142.58,
    "text": "thoughts about agile and quality. And so I think it's a huge benefit for the for the"
  },
  {
    "start": 142.62,
    "end": 150.94,
    "text": "whole testing community too. Yeah, and I think we have a great topic when we when we talk"
  },
  {
    "start": 150.94,
    "end": 156.82,
    "text": "to each other. It's it's about agile quality. And how do we do agile quality nowadays? And"
  },
  {
    "start": 156.96,
    "end": 162.62,
    "text": "yeah. So what's your first thought when you think of agile quality? 2025?"
  },
  {
    "start": 162.62,
    "end": 170.86,
    "text": "five. So it's a nice question. Well, I'm not really sure. But the funny thing is, I think"
  },
  {
    "start": 170.88,
    "end": 175.86,
    "text": "it splits right between between leading people and lacking people or something like that."
  },
  {
    "start": 176.62,
    "end": 181.78,
    "text": "Because, as you know, I've been doing a lot of testing in the first, say 20 years of my"
  },
  {
    "start": 181.88,
    "end": 188.7,
    "text": "career, and then I moved over to more agile kind of stuff. And the recently, I was at"
  },
  {
    "start": 188.7,
    "end": 194.92,
    "text": "interim a test manager. And I didn't really like that in the first place, because I was"
  },
  {
    "start": 194.98,
    "end": 199.2,
    "text": "only two months or something so very short. But But in the beginning, I didn't like that,"
  },
  {
    "start": 199.3,
    "end": 203.76,
    "text": "because I thought all things probably changed that much. I don't want to do that anymore."
  },
  {
    "start": 203.94,
    "end": 209.14,
    "text": "I'm not really sure if I'm capable. But in that context, so you got leading and lagging,"
  },
  {
    "start": 209.22,
    "end": 213.44,
    "text": "of course, it wasn't that that because we didn't get really to assess manager didn't"
  },
  {
    "start": 213.44,
    "end": 216.66,
    "text": "really get into the tooling and that kind of stuff where a lot of things have changed"
  },
  {
    "start": 216.66,
    "end": 223.42,
    "text": "big time I think. But on managerial test managerial stuff it's not that different"
  },
  {
    "start": 224.04,
    "end": 228.84,
    "text": "and in that organization we were still having a lot of the old school problems. So it was really"
  },
  {
    "start": 229.0,
    "end": 234.02,
    "text": "like memory drawers like I was working in a suddenly oh wait now I remember we always had"
  },
  {
    "start": 234.09,
    "end": 239.66,
    "text": "oh we have the problem here as well. So in that case fundamentally I'm not thinking has changed a"
  },
  {
    "start": 239.7,
    "end": 246.64,
    "text": "lot testing this and didn't really do that changed a lot. On the other hand I think technical did a"
  },
  {
    "start": 246.64,
    "end": 253.56,
    "text": "And yeah, for the leading part. Yeah, I don't know, actually, do you? Agile testing is that"
  },
  {
    "start": 253.66,
    "end": 260.1,
    "text": "much different than testing? No, I think it is the same principles. But I what I what"
  },
  {
    "start": 260.12,
    "end": 268.88,
    "text": "comes to my mind is that agile and agile project forces you to use it. Because you have to"
  },
  {
    "start": 269.02,
    "end": 275.44,
    "text": "you cannot sit and wait until you get some increment. And on the side, no, there is then"
  },
  {
    "start": 275.44,
    "end": 279.54,
    "text": "And if I talk about testing, I talk about also having automation in place, the CECD"
  },
  {
    "start": 279.66,
    "end": 280.0,
    "text": "pipeline."
  },
  {
    "start": 280.1,
    "end": 282.2,
    "text": "That's not agile testing, that's just proper testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 283.26,
    "end": 288.92,
    "text": "So if you have all those things in place, all those competences, all those, how do you"
  },
  {
    "start": 288.92,
    "end": 292.58,
    "text": "call it, skills done and you're doing it in a proper way, it doesn't really matter."
  },
  {
    "start": 293.82,
    "end": 297.9,
    "text": "But I'm still surprised that sometimes I see organizations that start a new project, big"
  },
  {
    "start": 297.98,
    "end": 302.64,
    "text": "project, and then I think, \"Oh, probably everything will be done automatically, right?\""
  },
  {
    "start": 302.64,
    "end": 306.76,
    "text": "and I look at look in the plans and like, Oh, I still do manual testing on functional"
  },
  {
    "start": 306.88,
    "end": 307.1,
    "text": "level."
  },
  {
    "start": 307.34,
    "end": 309.68,
    "text": "Oh, where's your CEO?"
  },
  {
    "start": 309.9,
    "end": 310.54,
    "text": "You don't?"
  },
  {
    "start": 310.68,
    "end": 310.86,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 311.34,
    "end": 317.82,
    "text": "So that's that's that's the testing nowadays as a standard, the defective standard."
  },
  {
    "start": 318.98,
    "end": 320.82,
    "text": "Again, it's the leading leading thing, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 321.1,
    "end": 321.28,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 322.06,
    "end": 322.28,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 323.339,
    "end": 330.24,
    "text": "And what do you think it's for for a team to get into the testing and quality stuff"
  },
  {
    "start": 330.24,
    "end": 333.54,
    "text": "more when you look at that from the leading perspective."
  },
  {
    "start": 333.88,
    "end": 340.26,
    "text": "So how do you think, can we get people there that they use their knowledge and what they"
  },
  {
    "start": 340.28,
    "end": 341.98,
    "text": "all learned about testing and the stuff?"
  },
  {
    "start": 343.82,
    "end": 349.64,
    "text": "Well, I think it's the thing, having the knowledge together and using it or allowed to be using"
  },
  {
    "start": 349.7,
    "end": 349.84,
    "text": "it."
  },
  {
    "start": 350.68,
    "end": 354.02,
    "text": "So lately I'm talking about a lot about scaling up."
  },
  {
    "start": 354.38,
    "end": 356.64,
    "text": "So not scaling up your agile, but scaling up."
  },
  {
    "start": 357.44,
    "end": 361.44,
    "text": "And it's all to do with of course with the Agile manifesto where they say any principles"
  },
  {
    "start": 361.5,
    "end": 363.14,
    "text": "like technical excellence kind of thing."
  },
  {
    "start": 363.96,
    "end": 369.08,
    "text": "But it's very difficult to grasp I think for organizations as well as practitioners, whether"
  },
  {
    "start": 369.14,
    "end": 371.48,
    "text": "they're Agile or quality or whatever role."
  },
  {
    "start": 372.72,
    "end": 377.72,
    "text": "And for me, I'm talking a lot about practices, where practice for me is like a small container,"
  },
  {
    "start": 379.16,
    "end": 382.58,
    "text": "the smallest container you can think of or something like that sounds really Agile, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 383.94,
    "end": 385.16,
    "text": "of skills, knowledge, and mindset"
  },
  {
    "start": 385.32,
    "end": 386.88,
    "text": "that you need to do certain tasks well."
  },
  {
    "start": 387.7,
    "end": 389.58,
    "text": "So for a traditional tester,"
  },
  {
    "start": 389.63,
    "end": 394.96,
    "text": "I think one of those could be the container"
  },
  {
    "start": 395.08,
    "end": 396.12,
    "text": "like using test techniques."
  },
  {
    "start": 396.24,
    "end": 397.54,
    "text": "And then you have a lot of techniques"
  },
  {
    "start": 397.68,
    "end": 398.78,
    "text": "that you can use, of course,"
  },
  {
    "start": 399.42,
    "end": 402.82,
    "text": "but basically the skill is using it or the practice."
  },
  {
    "start": 404.04,
    "end": 406.08,
    "text": "And CACD can be a practice, et cetera."
  },
  {
    "start": 406.15,
    "end": 407.6,
    "text": "There's a lot of practices that you can do."
  },
  {
    "start": 408.18,
    "end": 410.92,
    "text": "And I can give you some examples if you like,"
  },
  {
    "start": 411.06,
    "end": 414.26,
    "text": "But what I like most is if you do that,"
  },
  {
    "start": 414.28,
    "end": 416.68,
    "text": "basically you break up the whole thing of innovation"
  },
  {
    "start": 416.84,
    "end": 418.62,
    "text": "and skill knowledge or something like that"
  },
  {
    "start": 418.62,
    "end": 419.74,
    "text": "into really small things."
  },
  {
    "start": 420.48,
    "end": 421.64,
    "text": "It's much easier to grasp."
  },
  {
    "start": 422.3,
    "end": 424.7,
    "text": "And then you can start talking with a team, I think,"
  },
  {
    "start": 425.26,
    "end": 427.88,
    "text": "like, \"Hey, I have these skills, I have these skills."
  },
  {
    "start": 428.91,
    "end": 429.88,
    "text": "\"Shall we exchange knowledge?\""
  },
  {
    "start": 429.88,
    "end": 431.14,
    "text": "And then you can do all kinds of things"
  },
  {
    "start": 431.36,
    "end": 433.34,
    "text": "from lunch session, brown paper sessions,"
  },
  {
    "start": 433.52,
    "end": 434.84,
    "text": "books, reading, whatever,"
  },
  {
    "start": 435.68,
    "end": 437.84,
    "text": "just to practice that or do some mopping or something."
  },
  {
    "start": 438.28,
    "end": 439.9,
    "text": "But also on organizational level,"
  },
  {
    "start": 440.02,
    "end": 441.46,
    "text": "you can also play a different game."
  },
  {
    "start": 442.5,
    "end": 448.16,
    "text": "Because I've been in too many games, organizations, also the more agile ones, they really thought"
  },
  {
    "start": 448.16,
    "end": 450.22,
    "text": "we should do something with innovation or something."
  },
  {
    "start": 450.42,
    "end": 455.28,
    "text": "And then people got room in teams to do 10, 20% innovation."
  },
  {
    "start": 455.68,
    "end": 455.8,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 456.04,
    "end": 457.16,
    "text": "And they were like, yeah, what should we do?"
  },
  {
    "start": 457.2,
    "end": 457.6,
    "text": "What should we do?"
  },
  {
    "start": 457.86,
    "end": 460.32,
    "text": "And it was too big and not good to grasp."
  },
  {
    "start": 460.98,
    "end": 464.66,
    "text": "And on one hand, you had the management layer or leading layer, leaders that said like,"
  },
  {
    "start": 464.7,
    "end": 465.7,
    "text": "we want to do innovation."
  },
  {
    "start": 466.02,
    "end": 466.94,
    "text": "Why is it anything happening?"
  },
  {
    "start": 467.12,
    "end": 467.86,
    "text": "Why is anything improving?"
  },
  {
    "start": 467.7,
    "end": 472.4,
    "text": "improving and the other teams say like yeah what should we do and if teams don't know"
  },
  {
    "start": 472.46,
    "end": 475.9,
    "text": "what they want to do then business probably say if you don't know I know what you want"
  },
  {
    "start": 475.92,
    "end": 481.36,
    "text": "to do and then they stack with a lot of work again but we're making that more more tangible"
  },
  {
    "start": 481.7,
    "end": 486.42,
    "text": "by using more practices and say like shall we just do CCD or shall we do test automation"
  },
  {
    "start": 486.56,
    "end": 491.42,
    "text": "shall we that kind of stuff I think I played around with that on a lot of workshops as"
  },
  {
    "start": 491.44,
    "end": 497.68,
    "text": "well yeah so it's just an idea that's starting to get a grasp of my mind more and more yeah"
  },
  {
    "start": 497.68,
    "end": 501.7,
    "text": "I think there are two very important things, what you mentioned here, is that the first"
  },
  {
    "start": 501.78,
    "end": 505.62,
    "text": "one is to do the practice and the training stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 506.14,
    "end": 511.28,
    "text": "Because I know a lot of testers who know the testing techniques, but they don't use it"
  },
  {
    "start": 511.3,
    "end": 512.52,
    "text": "in real life."
  },
  {
    "start": 512.68,
    "end": 518.659,
    "text": "So to get practice in all this stuff like CI/CD, like test automation, like test design"
  },
  {
    "start": 518.68,
    "end": 525.5,
    "text": "techniques, test data generation, all this stuff is very crucial for doing a good job."
  },
  {
    "start": 525.76,
    "end": 531.0,
    "text": "Yeah, but all together it's a very big heap of a lot of work and everybody says, \"Now"
  },
  {
    "start": 531.14,
    "end": 533.42,
    "text": "then I'll just continue doing my ordinary job.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 533.42,
    "end": 534.1,
    "text": "It's too much."
  },
  {
    "start": 534.62,
    "end": 536.92,
    "text": "Until you break it up into small pieces and start talking about it."
  },
  {
    "start": 537.08,
    "end": 537.22,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 537.88,
    "end": 544.78,
    "text": "Yeah, and that's the second thing I like very much is when you have these small chunks and"
  },
  {
    "start": 544.9,
    "end": 547.82,
    "text": "say, \"Okay, who has the skills for that?\""
  },
  {
    "start": 547.96,
    "end": 554.44,
    "text": "This deals with, I think, a big problem now in HL teams when we say everybody is responsible"
  },
  {
    "start": 554.44,
    "end": 560.54,
    "text": "for quality and everybody should do the UI and development and test automation and so"
  },
  {
    "start": 560.6,
    "end": 568.36,
    "text": "on and nobody, a developer wants to code and wants to do his stuff and not doing some UI"
  },
  {
    "start": 568.48,
    "end": 570.64,
    "text": "design or something like that or doing data."
  },
  {
    "start": 571.08,
    "end": 574.96,
    "text": "But if you break it down to this to the small chunks and say, okay, who has the skills for"
  },
  {
    "start": 575.0,
    "end": 575.26,
    "text": "this?"
  },
  {
    "start": 575.85,
    "end": 578.5,
    "text": "Who wants to become better in it or something like that?"
  },
  {
    "start": 578.74,
    "end": 579.32,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 579.95,
    "end": 581.96,
    "text": "And you don't have to do it in a team, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 582.22,
    "end": 582.3,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 583.32,
    "end": 588.92,
    "text": "I think like five years ago or something, maybe more, we were really like the multiple"
  },
  {
    "start": 588.96,
    "end": 589.62,
    "text": "discipline team."
  },
  {
    "start": 589.76,
    "end": 592.16,
    "text": "Everybody's a developer, separate testers can't be."
  },
  {
    "start": 592.16,
    "end": 594.26,
    "text": "I don't think we want that now anymore."
  },
  {
    "start": 594.42,
    "end": 595.08,
    "text": "Not that strict."
  },
  {
    "start": 595.28,
    "end": 597.68,
    "text": "So I should say like the team should be self-sufficient."
  },
  {
    "start": 597.96,
    "end": 602.0,
    "text": "So all the skills and all the knowledge should be disciplined, should be in there, preferably."
  },
  {
    "start": 603.2,
    "end": 604.68,
    "text": "You can specialize still."
  },
  {
    "start": 605.32,
    "end": 608.28,
    "text": "But you can still do it in a guild or something like that as well, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 608.82,
    "end": 612.92,
    "text": "So if all testers once in a while come together in a guild or a chapter, what you call that,"
  },
  {
    "start": 612.96,
    "end": 616.52,
    "text": "can still do the same game. You don't have to do that also only with the team."
  },
  {
    "start": 618.98,
    "end": 626.8,
    "text": "Yes, it's a great approach, I think. And when you when you see a good performing team today,"
  },
  {
    "start": 626.94,
    "end": 633.68,
    "text": "is there still a real tester in there? Or is it more a quality guy? Or some is it is"
  },
  {
    "start": 633.7,
    "end": 634.76,
    "text": "it done by the developers?"
  },
  {
    "start": 635.58,
    "end": 641.14,
    "text": "What do you think? I think it depends a lot on on on the level of testing, basically."
  },
  {
    "start": 641.32,
    "end": 643.14,
    "text": "So if you take your female, of course."
  },
  {
    "start": 643.78,
    "end": 646.52,
    "text": "So the more technical tests are mostly done"
  },
  {
    "start": 646.62,
    "end": 647.16,
    "text": "by the developer."
  },
  {
    "start": 647.19,
    "end": 649.58,
    "text": "And I think you can actually ask them to do that"
  },
  {
    "start": 649.74,
    "end": 652.22,
    "text": "or assume that they should, something like that."
  },
  {
    "start": 652.4,
    "end": 653.92,
    "text": "I recall that it's a demand, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 654.62,
    "end": 654.98,
    "text": "They should."
  },
  {
    "start": 655.62,
    "end": 657.58,
    "text": "But I think the more functional tests,"
  },
  {
    "start": 657.96,
    "end": 660.58,
    "text": "well, that's maybe a shimmering area,"
  },
  {
    "start": 661.14,
    "end": 662.72,
    "text": "but all the end to end testing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 662.84,
    "end": 666.3,
    "text": "or maybe the process testing or the AA,"
  },
  {
    "start": 666.41,
    "end": 669.12,
    "text": "I recall that, where the people can really work with it,"
  },
  {
    "start": 669.8,
    "end": 671.6,
    "text": "might still be something for a tester's job."
  },
  {
    "start": 674.279,
    "end": 679.34,
    "text": "But I also had sometimes where I had a small example,"
  },
  {
    "start": 679.5,
    "end": 681.78,
    "text": "which is an old example of a small team,"
  },
  {
    "start": 682.29,
    "end": 684.46,
    "text": "where there was one tester who was testing the work"
  },
  {
    "start": 684.54,
    "end": 689.08,
    "text": "of say five developers, and he was working his guts out."
  },
  {
    "start": 689.8,
    "end": 691.84,
    "text": "And then we sat with the team and said like,"
  },
  {
    "start": 692.36,
    "end": 695.22,
    "text": "he's working very hard, and you're programming"
  },
  {
    "start": 695.46,
    "end": 698.34,
    "text": "with five people program faster than he can test."
  },
  {
    "start": 699.56,
    "end": 701.7,
    "text": "So we made him more responsible for the test strategy."
  },
  {
    "start": 702.74,
    "end": 704.88,
    "text": "And we said like, what tests can we do?"
  },
  {
    "start": 705.24,
    "end": 706.34,
    "text": "Should he do as a tester?"
  },
  {
    "start": 706.46,
    "end": 707.62,
    "text": "What tests can you do as a developer?"
  },
  {
    "start": 707.67,
    "end": 709.04,
    "text": "And then we made some kind of table."
  },
  {
    "start": 709.78,
    "end": 711.5,
    "text": "It basically is in the book that I once wrote,"
  },
  {
    "start": 712.46,
    "end": 713.36,
    "text": "but I don't know which page."
  },
  {
    "start": 713.66,
    "end": 715.36,
    "text": "So I'm not gonna look at it now straight away."
  },
  {
    "start": 715.74,
    "end": 717.22,
    "text": "But basically, but I say like,"
  },
  {
    "start": 717.36,
    "end": 718.82,
    "text": "if you can help me on this part,"
  },
  {
    "start": 718.96,
    "end": 721.36,
    "text": "then I free some time and I can think more strategic."
  },
  {
    "start": 723.04,
    "end": 727.22,
    "text": "And I think that was a very nice, mature situation."
  },
  {
    "start": 727.36,
    "end": 729.66,
    "text": "So that was one of the later test projects."
  },
  {
    "start": 729.78,
    "end": 731.44,
    "text": "I didn't reuse that anymore."
  },
  {
    "start": 731.66,
    "end": 733.88,
    "text": "So it's coming from real drawer somewhere."
  },
  {
    "start": 734.56,
    "end": 734.7,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 735.12,
    "end": 735.76,
    "text": "Oh yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 736.0,
    "end": 737.2,
    "text": "Now we talk about it."
  },
  {
    "start": 737.4,
    "end": 737.5,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 738.96,
    "end": 739.08,
    "text": "Okay."
  },
  {
    "start": 739.22,
    "end": 740.98,
    "text": "I think that's a good thing, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 741.34,
    "end": 745.62,
    "text": "If you're a test manager or a tester, if you can move a little bit to the strategic"
  },
  {
    "start": 745.72,
    "end": 751.4,
    "text": "level and you're not running and then you can say like, I want these tests to be done"
  },
  {
    "start": 751.76,
    "end": 755.78,
    "text": "and then on one side you can go to the organization and say like, hey, is this the test that you"
  },
  {
    "start": 755.84,
    "end": 756.36,
    "text": "want me to do?"
  },
  {
    "start": 756.8,
    "end": 757.46,
    "text": "Yes, yes, yes."
  },
  {
    "start": 758.1,
    "end": 759.44,
    "text": "And on the other side, you can say like,"
  },
  {
    "start": 759.58,
    "end": 760.84,
    "text": "this is all the tests that we need to do,"
  },
  {
    "start": 761.06,
    "end": 762.86,
    "text": "but I don't have time, give me an extra tester,"
  },
  {
    "start": 763.44,
    "end": 765.58,
    "text": "or maybe you can help me out on this part or that part."
  },
  {
    "start": 767.26,
    "end": 770.56,
    "text": "And then once more, it becomes a team activity, of course,"
  },
  {
    "start": 771.38,
    "end": 773.12,
    "text": "where the responsibility is of course of the team,"
  },
  {
    "start": 773.24,
    "end": 775.36,
    "text": "but everybody has its own specialism."
  },
  {
    "start": 775.72,
    "end": 779.46,
    "text": "- Yeah, and what do you think the role of the developer"
  },
  {
    "start": 779.7,
    "end": 781.38,
    "text": "in this all quality stuff,"
  },
  {
    "start": 783.52,
    "end": 785.879,
    "text": "how has it changed in the last years"
  },
  {
    "start": 785.88,
    "end": 788.58,
    "text": "in the in the all the HR stuff?"
  },
  {
    "start": 790.56,
    "end": 791.66,
    "text": "I don't know, actually."
  },
  {
    "start": 792.06,
    "end": 792.18,
    "text": "No."
  },
  {
    "start": 793.6,
    "end": 796.08,
    "text": "And the good question is why don't I know right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 796.54,
    "end": 800.34,
    "text": "So I'm thinking now myself whether that's what I'm less involved with teams and more"
  },
  {
    "start": 800.4,
    "end": 804.74,
    "text": "on a strategic level with with transformational things working."
  },
  {
    "start": 805.0,
    "end": 805.78,
    "text": "Maybe that's one thing."
  },
  {
    "start": 807.58,
    "end": 808.38,
    "text": "I don't know."
  },
  {
    "start": 809.62,
    "end": 814.52,
    "text": "No, no, it should still be and I think that is still a core responsibility of the whole"
  },
  {
    "start": 814.6,
    "end": 814.88,
    "text": "team."
  },
  {
    "start": 815.44,
    "end": 817.66,
    "text": "I think that's grasped by many people."
  },
  {
    "start": 819.58,
    "end": 829.52,
    "text": "Yeah, and when we go to the strategic level, so we look at the transformation, so how is"
  },
  {
    "start": 829.62,
    "end": 834.8,
    "text": "the way of going into agile nowadays?"
  },
  {
    "start": 835.08,
    "end": 840.86,
    "text": "So when I remember in the beginning, we had just the scrum and maybe some Kanban style,"
  },
  {
    "start": 841.0,
    "end": 844.48,
    "text": "and we did all these frameworks and tried to get it stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 845.04,
    "end": 851.74,
    "text": "But how can we start today to go more into a real agile or into more value-based or a"
  },
  {
    "start": 851.76,
    "end": 853.06,
    "text": "mindset or something like that?"
  },
  {
    "start": 854.18,
    "end": 855.34,
    "text": "Good, good question."
  },
  {
    "start": 855.84,
    "end": 860.54,
    "text": "Well if you completely, now it doesn't really matter if you're completely rookie or not,"
  },
  {
    "start": 860.62,
    "end": 863.18,
    "text": "I think you should start with why you want to do it."
  },
  {
    "start": 864.72,
    "end": 866.32,
    "text": "Because that's a good question, yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 866.48,
    "end": 869.04,
    "text": "A very difficult question maybe as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 870.18,
    "end": 876.74,
    "text": "I just had a talk with somebody who says like, in one way you could say that the heydays"
  },
  {
    "start": 876.8,
    "end": 879.26,
    "text": "of Agile are something gone, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 879.9,
    "end": 884.84,
    "text": "Depending on what organization you are still doing organizations that really are starting."
  },
  {
    "start": 886.4,
    "end": 888.68,
    "text": "But we used to find it very cool to be Agile."
  },
  {
    "start": 889.36,
    "end": 892.06,
    "text": "Now it's less Agile, less cool at least."
  },
  {
    "start": 892.24,
    "end": 895.52,
    "text": "And two years ago, it was really cool to have a PI event, something like that."
  },
  {
    "start": 895.86,
    "end": 899.54,
    "text": "It was more about the PI event than the purpose of the PI event, I think."
  },
  {
    "start": 899.64,
    "end": 902.46,
    "text": "So if you say, \"Did you do your PI?\""
  },
  {
    "start": 902.48,
    "end": 907.18,
    "text": "\"No, I didn't. I did a PI event with so many, so many. How cool am I?\""
  },
  {
    "start": 907.18,
    "end": 908.4,
    "text": "So the bigger the better."
  },
  {
    "start": 909.16,
    "end": 912.34,
    "text": "But now it seems to be more going to, like, why are we doing that?"
  },
  {
    "start": 912.86,
    "end": 916.04,
    "text": "So personally as a professional, I'm shifting also from agile transformation"
  },
  {
    "start": 916.16,
    "end": 919.28,
    "text": "much more to that, towards more value delivery expert."
  },
  {
    "start": 920.5,
    "end": 924.74,
    "text": "Value delivery can be quality value delivery, something like that, business value delivery."
  },
  {
    "start": 925.46,
    "end": 926.76,
    "text": "whatever you want."
  },
  {
    "start": 928.119,
    "end": 930.78,
    "text": "So in that way, the real purpose should be like,"
  },
  {
    "start": 931.0,
    "end": 933.44,
    "text": "Agile could be cool, but it's not our main goal."
  },
  {
    "start": 933.64,
    "end": 935.8,
    "text": "It's just a way to get to another goal."
  },
  {
    "start": 936.06,
    "end": 936.5,
    "text": "- Yeah, yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 937.22,
    "end": 938.34,
    "text": "- And I really liked, 'cause yesterday"
  },
  {
    "start": 938.88,
    "end": 940.28,
    "text": "I had a talk with somebody, he says like,"
  },
  {
    "start": 940.76,
    "end": 942.66,
    "text": "yeah, we wanna do some more Agile."
  },
  {
    "start": 943.16,
    "end": 945.7,
    "text": "But basically, although Agile might be a little bit"
  },
  {
    "start": 945.7,
    "end": 948.28,
    "text": "on the decline, agility is not, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 948.28,
    "end": 953.259,
    "text": "But Agile, I think we can still use it as a vehicle"
  },
  {
    "start": 953.34,
    "end": 958.6,
    "text": "to get the message across and to get people more responsible and more self-assured and"
  },
  {
    "start": 958.62,
    "end": 960.06,
    "text": "get more decisions lower."
  },
  {
    "start": 960.42,
    "end": 961.52,
    "text": "And I thought that's really cool."
  },
  {
    "start": 963.32,
    "end": 968.22,
    "text": "Yeah, I think that the question for the why is really important there because a manager"
  },
  {
    "start": 968.3,
    "end": 978.339,
    "text": "often sees, yeah, we just want to get some money back and want to release faster and"
  },
  {
    "start": 978.34,
    "end": 980.22,
    "text": "save some costs and this stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 980.62,
    "end": 987.12,
    "text": "But the real purpose of doing Agile is not really asked or they do it because it's like"
  },
  {
    "start": 987.16,
    "end": 989.14,
    "text": "a hype or something like that."
  },
  {
    "start": 989.34,
    "end": 992.52,
    "text": "And please enter on stage the practices again."
  },
  {
    "start": 993.12,
    "end": 997.38,
    "text": "Because what I did, I like to talk about this book a little bit."
  },
  {
    "start": 998.3,
    "end": 1000.06,
    "text": "My old book, it's four year old."
  },
  {
    "start": 1000.84,
    "end": 1004.58,
    "text": "Next month or this month I'm going to launch this one, which is the updated version."
  },
  {
    "start": 1005.22,
    "end": 1006.02,
    "text": "No difference, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1006.18,
    "end": 1009.84,
    "text": "The scroll has become, oh, that's also different because I grew older."
  },
  {
    "start": 1010.26,
    "end": 1015.34,
    "text": "The scroll has become a giraffe and yes, I grew a little bit older."
  },
  {
    "start": 1016.92,
    "end": 1018.92,
    "text": "In here, there's some practices again."
  },
  {
    "start": 1022.22,
    "end": 1027.1,
    "text": "When I wrote this book, it was much more four years ago about being agile and going agile,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1027.28,
    "end": 1027.5,
    "text": "cool."
  },
  {
    "start": 1028.98,
    "end": 1033.12,
    "text": "Maybe if I started writing this book now, I wouldn't even use agile."
  },
  {
    "start": 1033.74,
    "end": 1036.86,
    "text": "And in the update version, I tried to reduce the agile"
  },
  {
    "start": 1036.9,
    "end": 1040.199,
    "text": "a little bit and improve the sense a little bit more."
  },
  {
    "start": 1042.24,
    "end": 1043.959,
    "text": "For the same thing, like those practices,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1044.329,
    "end": 1046.699,
    "text": "in this book I mentioned in the built-in quality thing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1046.92,
    "end": 1048.42,
    "text": "you've probably read it once, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1048.56,
    "end": 1050.2,
    "text": "With all these kinds of things, the practices."
  },
  {
    "start": 1051.92,
    "end": 1053.94,
    "text": "I identified something like 75."
  },
  {
    "start": 1054.82,
    "end": 1057.26,
    "text": "And then in built-in quality workshops, I always say like,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1057.32,
    "end": 1059.68,
    "text": "if you wanna improve your quality here or there,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1059.71,
    "end": 1061.42,
    "text": "or there in the software development lifecycle,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1062.08,
    "end": 1064.34,
    "text": "How are you going to maybe by embracing practices,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1064.92,
    "end": 1066.96,
    "text": "a good way to sharpen your tools"
  },
  {
    "start": 1067.02,
    "end": 1068.08,
    "text": "and actually improve something."
  },
  {
    "start": 1069.22,
    "end": 1071.94,
    "text": "But now I made that list a bit longer."
  },
  {
    "start": 1072.0,
    "end": 1073.5,
    "text": "I think I'm 100, 150."
  },
  {
    "start": 1073.86,
    "end": 1076.52,
    "text": "And I think if we were sparring together,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1076.52,
    "end": 1078.42,
    "text": "we can come much more as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 1078.92,
    "end": 1080.08,
    "text": "But the good thing you can,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1080.82,
    "end": 1083.1,
    "text": "if all those practices make up good software development"
  },
  {
    "start": 1083.2,
    "end": 1085.18,
    "text": "or agile software development or agile,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1085.84,
    "end": 1087.54,
    "text": "it's very easy to say like,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1087.84,
    "end": 1091.479,
    "text": "which of those practices actually help you to reduce costs"
  },
  {
    "start": 1091.48,
    "end": 1094.64,
    "text": "or which of those practices actually help you to speed up"
  },
  {
    "start": 1095.179,
    "end": 1098.1,
    "text": "or which of those practices help you to reduce"
  },
  {
    "start": 1098.16,
    "end": 1101.4,
    "text": "the number of returns or quality errors"
  },
  {
    "start": 1101.5,
    "end": 1102.74,
    "text": "or something like that, fault injections."
  },
  {
    "start": 1103.94,
    "end": 1106.16,
    "text": "I did it even by asking Chechi GP."
  },
  {
    "start": 1106.86,
    "end": 1108.6,
    "text": "And they're like, of all these practices, which one?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1108.66,
    "end": 1110.98,
    "text": "And it came up with a very nice list."
  },
  {
    "start": 1111.58,
    "end": 1113.3,
    "text": "And now whether that's correct or not,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1114.08,
    "end": 1116.5,
    "text": "I think as an expert, you can always judge the better,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1117.1,
    "end": 1118.3,
    "text": "but wouldn't that be great to say like,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1118.36,
    "end": 1120.639,
    "text": "if all the things that I managed to have"
  },
  {
    "start": 1120.64,
    "end": 1123.4,
    "text": "and I can do as an organization or as a group of people"
  },
  {
    "start": 1123.59,
    "end": 1124.3,
    "text": "or as a team."
  },
  {
    "start": 1125.31,
    "end": 1126.74,
    "text": "If you don't want to agile,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1126.86,
    "end": 1127.82,
    "text": "but you want a cost reduction,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1128.0,
    "end": 1128.76,
    "text": "then I should start"
  },
  {
    "start": 1128.94,
    "end": 1131.06,
    "text": "and then you can really cherry pick practices."
  },
  {
    "start": 1131.59,
    "end": 1133.68,
    "text": "And you're still doing agile because the agile practices"
  },
  {
    "start": 1133.9,
    "end": 1135.28,
    "text": "and you're still doing proper development"
  },
  {
    "start": 1135.44,
    "end": 1136.66,
    "text": "because the development practices,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1137.4,
    "end": 1139.62,
    "text": "but you can sell them in a completely different way."
  },
  {
    "start": 1140.28,
    "end": 1141.98,
    "text": "So that will be much more easier to go back"
  },
  {
    "start": 1141.98,
    "end": 1143.88,
    "text": "to the very first question I think we started with,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1144.56,
    "end": 1146.6,
    "text": "to align with the business that says like,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1146.6,
    "end": 1147.54,
    "text": "we want a cost reduction"
  },
  {
    "start": 1148.06,
    "end": 1149.8,
    "text": "and as a team to respond to that,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1149.88,
    "end": 1153.84,
    "text": "like, oh, if that's what you want, we want to work on these things. Because I think these"
  },
  {
    "start": 1153.9,
    "end": 1159.84,
    "text": "will improve our quality, especially as testers, of course. And align with your ambition to"
  },
  {
    "start": 1159.92,
    "end": 1161.76,
    "text": "do this or that. Wouldn't that be great?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1162.64,
    "end": 1169.98,
    "text": "I like the view very much because when I talk to clients who are so fixed in some frameworks"
  },
  {
    "start": 1170.1,
    "end": 1176.46,
    "text": "like Scrum, and for me, it's like a framework, like Scrum is also a set of best practices,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1176.88,
    "end": 1183.08,
    "text": "of practices that worked for someone or for some organizations, but each organization,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1183.24,
    "end": 1184.54,
    "text": "each team is very individual."
  },
  {
    "start": 1184.88,
    "end": 1188.58,
    "text": "So you have to choose what is working for you and you have to try it out."
  },
  {
    "start": 1188.64,
    "end": 1190.98,
    "text": "So you cannot say if it works up front."
  },
  {
    "start": 1191.14,
    "end": 1198.22,
    "text": "So you can try to do a daily meetup in the morning or something like that or a Kanban"
  },
  {
    "start": 1198.32,
    "end": 1199.08,
    "text": "board or something like that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1199.1,
    "end": 1203.919,
    "text": "But you have to try it out if it works for you, it definitely delivers you a value to"
  },
  {
    "start": 1203.92,
    "end": 1209.32,
    "text": "go forward and not it's just a practice you do because everybody's doing it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1210.96,
    "end": 1216.58,
    "text": "Yeah, and Scrum of course is great because I have a lot of rules, much more for instance"
  },
  {
    "start": 1216.66,
    "end": 1217.32,
    "text": "than Kanban."
  },
  {
    "start": 1220.34,
    "end": 1221.48,
    "text": "But I'm not that strict in it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1221.74,
    "end": 1225.78,
    "text": "My favorite training tool nowadays is my Jenga tower that I bought."
  },
  {
    "start": 1225.92,
    "end": 1228.76,
    "text": "So the Jenga is those wooden blocks, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1228.9,
    "end": 1230.6,
    "text": "They're stacked and then you have to get them out."
  },
  {
    "start": 1231.36,
    "end": 1235.94,
    "text": "And I often say like, well, Scrum gives you a lot of guidelines, 15 minutes stand up every"
  },
  {
    "start": 1236.06,
    "end": 1238.96,
    "text": "day with a team of maximum nine people, that kind of stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 1239.59,
    "end": 1243.2,
    "text": "Does the world really have a great disaster if it's 20 minutes?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1243.54,
    "end": 1244.24,
    "text": "No, I don't think so."
  },
  {
    "start": 1244.42,
    "end": 1245.92,
    "text": "Is it a problem if you don't do it every day?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1246.6,
    "end": 1247.04,
    "text": "Et cetera, et cetera."
  },
  {
    "start": 1247.64,
    "end": 1249.18,
    "text": "So it's the framework, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1249.18,
    "end": 1251.08,
    "text": "You have to tune in and try what works for you."
  },
  {
    "start": 1251.9,
    "end": 1255.92,
    "text": "But if you get out too much, then the whole tower will probably fall down."
  },
  {
    "start": 1256.04,
    "end": 1257.34,
    "text": "And in trainings, I play with that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1257.48,
    "end": 1261.82,
    "text": "And I can every time in every discussion we have like, yeah, of course you can do that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1261.92,
    "end": 1264.14,
    "text": "But then you take out one more Jenga block."
  },
  {
    "start": 1264.72,
    "end": 1266.74,
    "text": "And as long as your tower doesn't fall, it's okay."
  },
  {
    "start": 1266.94,
    "end": 1269.4,
    "text": "But if you take out too much, you don't know what you're doing, it might fall."
  },
  {
    "start": 1270.4,
    "end": 1271.16,
    "text": "I like it a lot."
  },
  {
    "start": 1271.38,
    "end": 1272.7,
    "text": "Yeah, great metaphor for that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1273.72,
    "end": 1274.66,
    "text": "It's so useful."
  },
  {
    "start": 1274.82,
    "end": 1274.94,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1275.419,
    "end": 1275.82,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1276.58,
    "end": 1282.399,
    "text": "When we look at the software development process up to now and all the practices, where do"
  },
  {
    "start": 1282.24,
    "end": 1288.8,
    "text": "you say or what is your opinion where is the biggest lack of quality nowadays where we"
  },
  {
    "start": 1288.82,
    "end": 1293.86,
    "text": "say okay there we can invest so on a general level because there we have a lack."
  },
  {
    "start": 1294.24,
    "end": 1301.08,
    "text": "Yeah I very much like to say of course management but that would be too easy goal maybe to say"
  },
  {
    "start": 1301.18,
    "end": 1307.679,
    "text": "that but in a way it's I think it's a good thing because they should be quality aware"
  },
  {
    "start": 1307.68,
    "end": 1311.74,
    "text": "as well because they should be aware that certain practices are important and certain"
  },
  {
    "start": 1311.86,
    "end": 1312.16,
    "text": "things."
  },
  {
    "start": 1313.16,
    "end": 1317.02,
    "text": "I've been struggling with a recent client a lot about like when are we going to accept"
  },
  {
    "start": 1317.06,
    "end": 1317.6,
    "text": "things."
  },
  {
    "start": 1318.32,
    "end": 1320.94,
    "text": "A lot of discussion, a lot of contracts around it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1321.66,
    "end": 1323.04,
    "text": "And actually I still don't know."
  },
  {
    "start": 1324.2,
    "end": 1327.72,
    "text": "So like if you don't know when you're going to accept, how can I know what I need to test?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1329.68,
    "end": 1335.1,
    "text": "So in a way I think and then the test manager came so I was at the interim so I could pass"
  },
  {
    "start": 1335.1,
    "end": 1336.06,
    "text": "it over to him as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 1337.16,
    "end": 1342.34,
    "text": "And he was also saying like, yeah, but if I want to do this, and especially at the end"
  },
  {
    "start": 1342.38,
    "end": 1347.7,
    "text": "and the usability testing and use testing that and adapting their business processes"
  },
  {
    "start": 1348.18,
    "end": 1350.9,
    "text": "on the in scope, on the out scope, who's going to test that?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1352.6,
    "end": 1357.48,
    "text": "I think on that area, in this organization, it was all very new."
  },
  {
    "start": 1357.62,
    "end": 1360.02,
    "text": "So that will take a lot of time to sort that one out."
  },
  {
    "start": 1360.14,
    "end": 1364.52,
    "text": "If you're an organization that does software releases frequently, then that might not be"
  },
  {
    "start": 1364.56,
    "end": 1365.18,
    "text": "a problem at all."
  },
  {
    "start": 1365.62,
    "end": 1365.68,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1366.52,
    "end": 1369.32,
    "text": "Yes, so the management is the problem."
  },
  {
    "start": 1370.94,
    "end": 1372.32,
    "text": "Always, of course."
  },
  {
    "start": 1374.4,
    "end": 1379.32,
    "text": "And the other thing will probably be the first thing for each team or each organization as"
  },
  {
    "start": 1379.34,
    "end": 1379.48,
    "text": "well."
  },
  {
    "start": 1380.72,
    "end": 1387.26,
    "text": "Where all the usual stuff like if you're not doing CI/CD properly, etc."
  },
  {
    "start": 1387.96,
    "end": 1388.2,
    "text": "Why?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1388.62,
    "end": 1389.88,
    "text": "Start there maybe."
  },
  {
    "start": 1390.76,
    "end": 1396.56,
    "text": "But I've been also in organizations that so much problem with just ordinary work that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1396.62,
    "end": 1401.1,
    "text": "they couldn't really invest and improve anymore because every minute they needed to do their"
  },
  {
    "start": 1401.18,
    "end": 1406.62,
    "text": "testing and going back to that one test that I wanted to move to strategic level, same"
  },
  {
    "start": 1406.72,
    "end": 1406.92,
    "text": "thing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1407.62,
    "end": 1411.96,
    "text": "Like if you need to do a lot of testing, a lot of retesting all the time and you're getting"
  },
  {
    "start": 1411.96,
    "end": 1415.4,
    "text": "completely frustrated because you're just repeating, repeating, repeating, repeat, repeat,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1415.44,
    "end": 1421.4,
    "text": "sleep and more testing, yeah maybe you should try to move one layer up and see who else"
  },
  {
    "start": 1421.46,
    "end": 1421.98,
    "text": "can help you."
  },
  {
    "start": 1422.12,
    "end": 1422.6,
    "text": "Yeah, yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1424.06,
    "end": 1427.5,
    "text": "Okay, so I think there is a lot to do for our projects in the future."
  },
  {
    "start": 1428.24,
    "end": 1433.34,
    "text": "And one guide could be your new book, your new released book."
  },
  {
    "start": 1434.36,
    "end": 1438.96,
    "text": "So just get us into that, what's the storyline of the book?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1439.9,
    "end": 1440.6,
    "text": "Of this book?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1440.86,
    "end": 1442.26,
    "text": "Yeah, of this new one."
  },
  {
    "start": 1442.26,
    "end": 1444.38,
    "text": "- Well, it's called \"Surfing the Waves of Agile\""
  },
  {
    "start": 1444.7,
    "end": 1447.12,
    "text": "because I wouldn't want to change the book"
  },
  {
    "start": 1447.24,
    "end": 1448.74,
    "text": "for the second print, the title."
  },
  {
    "start": 1449.3,
    "end": 1451.76,
    "text": "\"Surfing\" because it's fun and you need to look ahead"
  },
  {
    "start": 1452.22,
    "end": 1454.22,
    "text": "for the next wave to participate."
  },
  {
    "start": 1455.08,
    "end": 1457.92,
    "text": "And it's all about value delivery in a changing world."
  },
  {
    "start": 1458.52,
    "end": 1459.92,
    "text": "And it used to be value delivery"
  },
  {
    "start": 1460.14,
    "end": 1462.12,
    "text": "in large and medium organizations,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1462.38,
    "end": 1463.78,
    "text": "only to find out that actually,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1464.08,
    "end": 1466.46,
    "text": "except for some people in retail,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1466.9,
    "end": 1468.58,
    "text": "we're always working for large organizations."
  },
  {
    "start": 1468.74,
    "end": 1470.72,
    "text": "- Yeah. (laughs)"
  },
  {
    "start": 1470.72,
    "end": 1473.56,
    "text": "because I think everyone is, but there's a lot of things changing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1473.6,
    "end": 1475.46,
    "text": "We didn't even talk about AI yet, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1475.68,
    "end": 1475.78,
    "text": "Yeah, we can."
  },
  {
    "start": 1475.78,
    "end": 1478.18,
    "text": "That's the other solution, perfect question."
  },
  {
    "start": 1478.82,
    "end": 1480.24,
    "text": "Yeah, let's not for this time."
  },
  {
    "start": 1480.72,
    "end": 1485.4,
    "text": "No, but any answer that I gave, the other answer could be, of course, AI."
  },
  {
    "start": 1485.7,
    "end": 1486.98,
    "text": "Like, what's the biggest challenge, AI?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1487.34,
    "end": 1488.3,
    "text": "What's the biggest challenge, AI?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1489.22,
    "end": 1492.38,
    "text": "But in this book, it's basically about transformation."
  },
  {
    "start": 1493.56,
    "end": 1498.36,
    "text": "But I've really – I used to depict very often Agile with more the scrum part,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1498.36,
    "end": 1507.68,
    "text": "a single team, like a reactor thing in a chemical plant. So basically, you have some metal thing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1507.68,
    "end": 1511.94,
    "text": "you put all the kind of chemicals in, little fire underneath and that's the chemical process."
  },
  {
    "start": 1512.64,
    "end": 1517.32,
    "text": "And then you have some pipes in and pipes out, right, to add more stuff. And finally,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1517.42,
    "end": 1522.68,
    "text": "the chemical product rolls out on the other side. So then you have something like supply lines and"
  },
  {
    "start": 1522.68,
    "end": 1527.559,
    "text": "the outlet lines of the boiler. And the boiler would be the team then, of course, that makes"
  },
  {
    "start": 1527.48,
    "end": 1533.72,
    "text": "everything happening where the chemistry is really going. And I really have, I think testers"
  },
  {
    "start": 1534.24,
    "end": 1539.14,
    "text": "are often focusing on the outlet, right? The outlet's everything from how do we integrate"
  },
  {
    "start": 1539.68,
    "end": 1545.12,
    "text": "a single team performance or single team results into one product, release it on several stages,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1545.18,
    "end": 1550.06,
    "text": "check whether it's okay, et cetera. But the supply lines are also very interesting and"
  },
  {
    "start": 1550.1,
    "end": 1554.52,
    "text": "I have some soft spot for that. So in this book, I have a lot of talk about like how"
  },
  {
    "start": 1554.52,
    "end": 1556.48,
    "text": "How do you prioritize your epics?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1556.56,
    "end": 1557.94,
    "text": "How do you do your refinement?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1558.12,
    "end": 1559.6,
    "text": "What are the roles that you need to have?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1560.08,
    "end": 1561.54,
    "text": "All the things that you need to have,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1562.06,
    "end": 1564.92,
    "text": "basically for, from the idea to concrete something"
  },
  {
    "start": 1565.08,
    "end": 1567.62,
    "text": "that the teams can build, like, aha, I get it,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1567.9,
    "end": 1571.28,
    "text": "definition already, prioritizing, et cetera,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1571.5,
    "end": 1573.4,
    "text": "and all the things around it for,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1573.54,
    "end": 1575.46,
    "text": "to get that value flow going, of course."
  },
  {
    "start": 1576.38,
    "end": 1578.46,
    "text": "And the built-in quality, the last chapter"
  },
  {
    "start": 1578.66,
    "end": 1580.52,
    "text": "that we've talked about previously as well,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1580.78,
    "end": 1584.12,
    "text": "in our other talks, is a little bit more supply,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1584.2,
    "end": 1585.28,
    "text": "but it's also in there like,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1587.48,
    "end": 1589.28,
    "text": "that's the storyline of the book basically."
  },
  {
    "start": 1589.46,
    "end": 1590.02,
    "text": "- Yeah, great."
  },
  {
    "start": 1590.14,
    "end": 1593.74,
    "text": "So I'm happy if I get one exemplar."
  },
  {
    "start": 1594.52,
    "end": 1594.62,
    "text": "(laughs)"
  },
  {
    "start": 1594.72,
    "end": 1596.02,
    "text": "- You get one example, yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1596.2,
    "end": 1598.46,
    "text": "- And we will surely put the link to the book."
  },
  {
    "start": 1598.46,
    "end": 1599.1,
    "text": "- Oh no, better."
  },
  {
    "start": 1599.46,
    "end": 1600.66,
    "text": "I give you two examples,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1600.8,
    "end": 1601.44,
    "text": "two examples,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1601.94,
    "end": 1604.18,
    "text": "one for you and one for the listener"
  },
  {
    "start": 1604.3,
    "end": 1606.36,
    "text": "that replies to you in your fine action"
  },
  {
    "start": 1606.42,
    "end": 1607.62,
    "text": "that you create, something like that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1607.8,
    "end": 1608.92,
    "text": "- Ah, that's okay."
  },
  {
    "start": 1608.94,
    "end": 1609.72,
    "text": "- That's a good idea, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1609.82,
    "end": 1612.34,
    "text": "I mail it to you and if somebody's listening"
  },
  {
    "start": 1612.42,
    "end": 1614.18,
    "text": "and says, \"I want it,\""
  },
  {
    "start": 1614.18,
    "end": 1616.42,
    "text": "sure how you're going to arrange that you send to him."
  },
  {
    "start": 1616.43,
    "end": 1617.26,
    "text": "We will manage it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1617.94,
    "end": 1618.44,
    "text": "Yeah, great."
  },
  {
    "start": 1619.22,
    "end": 1620.06,
    "text": "Yeah, that's good."
  },
  {
    "start": 1620.14,
    "end": 1624.5,
    "text": "And we will also put the link to the book in the show notes and the information so that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1624.56,
    "end": 1629.26,
    "text": "I think it's very valuable because I know your speeches and your content, your things,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1629.3,
    "end": 1635.18,
    "text": "it's no blah blah, it's all real practice and I'm really, really happy that I can read"
  },
  {
    "start": 1635.24,
    "end": 1637.64,
    "text": "it too and use it for my practice too."
  },
  {
    "start": 1637.8,
    "end": 1638.6,
    "text": "Yeah, cool."
  },
  {
    "start": 1639.12,
    "end": 1642.7,
    "text": "Yeah, Dirk-Jan, thank you very much to be here on the show."
  },
  {
    "start": 1643.58,
    "end": 1644.08,
    "text": "You're welcome."
  },
  {
    "start": 1644.08,
    "end": 1646.64,
    "text": "The time is running very fast with you."
  },
  {
    "start": 1646.8,
    "end": 1651.42,
    "text": "So I think always, always, especially when you're recording full cast, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1651.6,
    "end": 1652.36,
    "text": "Yeah, yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1652.36,
    "end": 1654.62,
    "text": "Most people say like, oh, already half an hour."
  },
  {
    "start": 1654.84,
    "end": 1655.0,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1656.06,
    "end": 1656.5,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1657.04,
    "end": 1659.8,
    "text": "So I think we will we will do another episode in the future."
  },
  {
    "start": 1660.04,
    "end": 1662.72,
    "text": "I can imagine that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1663.12,
    "end": 1664.94,
    "text": "And yeah, so thank you very much that you were here."
  },
  {
    "start": 1665.44,
    "end": 1668.26,
    "text": "And I wish you all the best for the future."
  },
  {
    "start": 1668.8,
    "end": 1674.18,
    "text": "And yeah, happy to see the book and to the people reading the book and enjoying it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1674.88,
    "end": 1675.0,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1675.46,
    "end": 1675.54,
    "text": "Okay."
  },
  {
    "start": 1675.7,
    "end": 1676.3,
    "text": "Meet you around."
  },
  {
    "start": 1676.84,
    "end": 1677.46,
    "text": "Thanks for listening."
  },
  {
    "start": 1678.299,
    "end": 1678.9,
    "text": "Bye-bye."
  },
  {
    "start": 1679.58,
    "end": 1679.94,
    "text": "Bye."
  }
]