[
  {
    "start": 0.46,
    "end": 10.809,
    "text": "Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed, the podcast for software testers developers and test automation engineers who want to create stunning great quality software."
  },
  {
    "start": 11.27,
    "end": 15.09,
    "text": "I'm Richie's software-quality coach keynote speaker and author."
  },
  {
    "start": 15.35,
    "end": 17.37,
    "text": "my guest today is Pekka Klerk."
  },
  {
    "start": 17.59,
    "end": 23.55,
    "text": "he is a developer an independent consultant from Finland And He Is The Lead Developer of Robot"
  },
  {
    "start": 23.669,
    "end": 24.169,
    "text": "Framework."
  },
  {
    "start": 24.689,
    "end": 25.81,
    "text": "Yes, you hear right."
  },
  {
    "start": 26.09,
    "end": 27.49,
    "text": "The Robot Framework!"
  },
  {
    "start": 27.669,
    "end": 34.47,
    "text": "So it was a big pleasure to talk with him and ask about how did all the Robot Frameworks stuff started years ago?"
  },
  {
    "start": 34.79,
    "end": 36.13,
    "text": "What were their challenges?"
  },
  {
    "start": 36.41,
    "end": 38.47,
    "text": "And what's on the road map for future?"
  },
  {
    "start": 38.91,
    "end": 40.089,
    "text": "I have little gift for you."
  },
  {
    "start": 40.39,
    "end": 49.17,
    "text": "in the show notes You will find at ten percent discount code For next Robocon online conference and also chance To win one free ticket."
  },
  {
    "start": 49.35,
    "end": 52.47,
    "text": "Just check out the Show Notes of this episode Now."
  },
  {
    "start": 52.769,
    "end": 53.17,
    "text": "enjoy."
  },
  {
    "start": 64.33,
    "end": 66.35,
    "text": "Hi Pekka, great to have you on the show here."
  },
  {
    "start": 66.75,
    "end": 67.25,
    "text": "Yeah hi!"
  },
  {
    "start": 67.429,
    "end": 68.03,
    "text": "Great to be here."
  },
  {
    "start": 68.57,
    "end": 70.15,
    "text": "yeah it's very nice."
  },
  {
    "start": 70.19,
    "end": 79.39,
    "text": "we are at The Quest Hague in Frankfurt of two thousand twenty five now and René Rona invited you into a podcast."
  },
  {
    "start": 79.47,
    "end": 91.23,
    "text": "he said Richie You Have To Do An Episode With Pekker because He is one Of The People Who Is With Robert Framework From The Beginning On And Developing Is One Of The Brains."
  },
  {
    "start": 92.05,
    "end": 94.63,
    "text": "Okay We do it, and now you're here."
  },
  {
    "start": 94.71,
    "end": 95.15,
    "text": "It's great!"
  },
  {
    "start": 96.19,
    "end": 99.49,
    "text": "Yeah so let's go directly into it."
  },
  {
    "start": 101.53,
    "end": 104.59,
    "text": "maybe get us to the start of The Robot Framework."
  },
  {
    "start": 106.59,
    "end": 109.15,
    "text": "How was your experience?"
  },
  {
    "start": 109.47,
    "end": 113.09,
    "text": "And how does that work for a project like this which is popular right now?"
  },
  {
    "start": 114.81,
    "end": 120.45,
    "text": "It started in four years ago."
  },
  {
    "start": 121.71,
    "end": 127.75,
    "text": "I was in Helsinki University of Technology and needed to do my master's thesis."
  },
  {
    "start": 140.77,
    "end": 141.81,
    "text": "Component so common kind."
  },
  {
    "start": 141.85,
    "end": 153.21,
    "text": "well not common combatant because I always implemented everything from scratch But i had noticed that needed similar kinds of things there and then in my master's thesis a study That okay, could it be possible to make this bit easier?"
  },
  {
    "start": 153.31,
    "end": 154.87,
    "text": "So we would have some kind for logger."
  },
  {
    "start": 154.95,
    "end": 159.71,
    "text": "For example It could be reused regardless the context or parser for today does something like that."
  },
  {
    "start": 160.35,
    "end": 173.17,
    "text": "but when I was studying these Already basically reading those written about test automation on at point And so I implemented prototypes, and actually we can have a core of the framework like that is generic."
  },
  {
    "start": 173.21,
    "end": 178.73,
    "text": "So it's not only components who mix and match but the core is generic And you can extend it to reusable libraries."
  },
  {
    "start": 179.99,
    "end": 181.33,
    "text": "That was how it was born."
  },
  {
    "start": 181.87,
    "end": 189.57,
    "text": "The ideas My colleague that i had been working in an earlier project."
  },
  {
    "start": 191.19,
    "end": 202.57,
    "text": "Then about same time he joined Nokia Networks Working there And he asked me that, okay do I know ideas for how to test automation in DevOps?"
  },
  {
    "start": 202.61,
    "end": 204.99,
    "text": "They needed a solution very heterogeneous environment."
  },
  {
    "start": 205.55,
    "end": 206.59,
    "text": "Nothing was available."
  },
  {
    "start": 206.87,
    "end": 212.13,
    "text": "it wasn't like internal APS and so nothing commercial could have been even being available."
  },
  {
    "start": 212.17,
    "end": 214.55,
    "text": "they need to implement something themselves."
  },
  {
    "start": 214.59,
    "end": 216.95,
    "text": "We had some success earlier as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 217.11,
    "end": 218.85,
    "text": "actually we've been studying this lately."
  },
  {
    "start": 219.31,
    "end": 220.59,
    "text": "now i know much more on."
  },
  {
    "start": 220.63,
    "end": 227.41,
    "text": "these are the ideas i have framework based on the prototype ideas at Nokia Networks."
  },
  {
    "start": 228.71,
    "end": 232.87,
    "text": "They grew internally, spread into other kind of parts with a company totally different comments."
  },
  {
    "start": 232.97,
    "end": 241.55,
    "text": "there I realized that it actually makes sense and this same colleague of mine Petri Hapio who had got me in their was able to fought with lawyers."
  },
  {
    "start": 241.59,
    "end": 242.37,
    "text": "so we get permission."
  },
  {
    "start": 242.53,
    "end": 243.01,
    "text": "open source."
  },
  {
    "start": 243.05,
    "end": 246.45,
    "text": "two thousand eight since that's been opened source."
  },
  {
    "start": 247.41,
    "end": 251.35,
    "text": "Nokia networks were still sponsoring development until twenty fifteen."
  },
  {
    "start": 251.45,
    "end": 255.89,
    "text": "So i'm working for them as an external consultant helping teams to use the framework."
  },
  {
    "start": 256.37,
    "end": 259.55,
    "text": "And at the same time, when I was just wondering if this can be done with the framework?"
  },
  {
    "start": 259.65,
    "end": 261.87,
    "text": "It wasn't me and other people in a team."
  },
  {
    "start": 262.33,
    "end": 263.27,
    "text": "we had a small theme there."
  },
  {
    "start": 264.11,
    "end": 266.45,
    "text": "We were adding new features making it that way better."
  },
  {
    "start": 267.95,
    "end": 273.03,
    "text": "But nowadays we have Robot Framework Foundations That is sponsoring the development."
  },
  {
    "start": 273.09,
    "end": 275.93,
    "text": "Nokia's one of the members there, but there are many other members as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 276.25,
    "end": 278.85,
    "text": "Many members know what they're from Germany René you mentioned."
  },
  {
    "start": 278.97,
    "end": 285.05,
    "text": "He said he was the chairman of the board of our foundation and yeah So that's where we are now still involved."
  },
  {
    "start": 285.79,
    "end": 286.51,
    "text": "so it's not."
  },
  {
    "start": 286.61,
    "end": 291.65,
    "text": "It's more a neutral professional Organization about this at not their company who isn't?"
  },
  {
    "start": 291.69,
    "end": 293.65,
    "text": "Yeah, definitely"
  },
  {
    "start": 294.15,
    "end": 296.33,
    "text": "The founders and is the Finnish Association?"
  },
  {
    "start": 296.43,
    "end": 309.03,
    "text": "So it was founded in Finland when We had finished consulting companies who were selling services related to robot framework, and it became apparent that Nokia direct sponsors are going to end at some point."
  },
  {
    "start": 309.51,
    "end": 311.41,
    "text": "So they formed this kind of foundation."
  },
  {
    "start": 311.47,
    "end": 318.95,
    "text": "so there was some maintenance for that because its hard if you have a consulting company on selling service open source product or the open source project is not maintained."
  },
  {
    "start": 319.47,
    "end": 320.25,
    "text": "That's kinda a challenge."
  },
  {
    "start": 320.31,
    "end": 326.11,
    "text": "then They were competitors of course, but they had joint interest in keeping this thing alive."
  },
  {
    "start": 326.57,
    "end": 334.19,
    "text": "And that was done like now a bit over ten years ago and it's been growing and growing... Well I don't know the numbers."
  },
  {
    "start": 334.25,
    "end": 336.85,
    "text": "we have now something like eighty-five members up on the foundation?"
  },
  {
    "start": 336.89,
    "end": 345.55,
    "text": "I don' t actually know what their numbers are as to how many we've got in Finland or elsewhere But nowadays there is a lot of members from Germany and Netherlands."
  },
  {
    "start": 346.05,
    "end": 348.73,
    "text": "It has spread here in Central Europe quite"
  },
  {
    "start": 348.85,
    "end": 350.83,
    "text": "a few times Yeah, and it's very popular."
  },
  {
    "start": 350.89,
    "end": 356.77,
    "text": "I've heard from my clients they're all dealing with the idea of going there or already at their robot framework."
  },
  {
    "start": 357.23,
    "end": 362.47,
    "text": "so can you describe us because not everyone is aware of the robot framework?"
  },
  {
    "start": 362.59,
    "end": 363.59,
    "text": "So what's that?"
  },
  {
    "start": 363.71,
    "end": 366.15,
    "text": "What's the main idea in the concept behind it?"
  },
  {
    "start": 367.61,
    "end": 374.63,
    "text": "um The idea is that uh the framework tries to make everything That is basically generic in all kind of automation projects."
  },
  {
    "start": 375.07,
    "end": 382.03,
    "text": "It handles that parser for data, so it has its own syntax that can run."
  },
  {
    "start": 383.33,
    "end": 385.11,
    "text": "It can parse and then start executing it."
  },
  {
    "start": 386.07,
    "end": 388.99,
    "text": "Then it has a standardized API for extension."
  },
  {
    "start": 389.13,
    "end": 396.03,
    "text": "So we have lot of readymade extensions but you also very easily create your own And then it generates logs in report."
  },
  {
    "start": 396.81,
    "end": 398.05,
    "text": "They are all the same format."
  },
  {
    "start": 399.27,
    "end": 407.55,
    "text": "That helps if need to do automation from scratch, basically like embedded project or something where you really need to implement everything yourself."
  },
  {
    "start": 408.19,
    "end": 412.51,
    "text": "So instead of starting from okay what would be my data format and how do I report this?"
  },
  {
    "start": 413.43,
    "end": 415.15,
    "text": "And How Do i actually interact with my system?"
  },
  {
    "start": 415.49,
    "end": 417.53,
    "text": "You just deal with this interact with your system part."
  },
  {
    "start": 417.57,
    "end": 422.13,
    "text": "then the data format comes from robots And then reporting on some robot and then it's very easy."
  },
  {
    "start": 422.27,
    "end": 433.63,
    "text": "You get everything else basically for free, because its generic we have like awesome editors nowadays For date or something that if you're a custom format anyway using just the text editor."
  },
  {
    "start": 434.93,
    "end": 438.23,
    "text": "But now we've got good plugins for VS Code and PyCham."
  },
  {
    "start": 439.63,
    "end": 440.63,
    "text": "It makes it so much easier."
  },
  {
    "start": 440.79,
    "end": 450.21,
    "text": "So that's kind of the power-off, when things are made available in a generic package then we can have lots of extensions for that but you still customize them very easily."
  },
  {
    "start": 451.89,
    "end": 461.59,
    "text": "I think this is crucial to make the configuration and individualization for your project or environment."
  },
  {
    "start": 462.75,
    "end": 464.41,
    "text": "It depends totally on projects."
  },
  {
    "start": 465.51,
    "end": 471.61,
    "text": "kind of the best fit for framework is heterogeneous environment where you may have web interfaces, may have databases."
  },
  {
    "start": 471.69,
    "end": 480.49,
    "text": "May have first APIs and maybe embedded systems or something like custom interfaces on something like that because we had two libraries available more than those."
  },
  {
    "start": 480.55,
    "end": 486.03,
    "text": "Of course if you have a custom stuff then you need to deal with yourself but it's not very complicated."
  },
  {
    "start": 486.75,
    "end": 494.15,
    "text": "whereas If would be like testing just a webpage And everybody there is using TypeScript to write their web page and so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 494.19,
    "end": 497.25,
    "text": "Then most likely, use in TypeScript with something like PlayWrite."
  },
  {
    "start": 497.91,
    "end": 502.15,
    "text": "it's better for you because everyone knows the tooling or some other benefit of Robot Framework aren't that big."
  },
  {
    "start": 503.33,
    "end": 512.03,
    "text": "Even if they have stakeholders who want to understand test cases They would be very human readable format."
  },
  {
    "start": 512.09,
    "end": 513.23,
    "text": "then Robot Framewerk has that."
  },
  {
    "start": 513.47,
    "end": 521.63,
    "text": "So you can just write test case in plain text where there are sentences basically at high level And you still get a local report, but then the benefits are smaller."
  },
  {
    "start": 522.03,
    "end": 528.99,
    "text": "But in that kind of heterogeneous environments where there's a lot of interfaces and custom stuff and so on... ...then their benefit is really big."
  },
  {
    "start": 529.31,
    "end": 529.57,
    "text": "Yeah"
  },
  {
    "start": 529.61,
    "end": 530.89,
    "text": "yeah It."
  },
  {
    "start": 531.01,
    "end": 538.69,
    "text": "now more than twenty years since the framework grows and expanded You were at it all time."
  },
  {
    "start": 539.05,
    "end": 543.71,
    "text": "So what are biggest milestones for this area?"
  },
  {
    "start": 543.91,
    "end": 551.47,
    "text": "Where they have features one of the most used nowadays, so what comes to your mind there?"
  },
  {
    "start": 551.59,
    "end": 551.71,
    "text": "Well"
  },
  {
    "start": 551.95,
    "end": 557.37,
    "text": "if we look at version One basically that was only used internally."
  },
  {
    "start": 557.43,
    "end": 565.85,
    "text": "Version Two was the first one which is an open source version and I think still in version two the data was in HTML tables."
  },
  {
    "start": 566.47,
    "end": 568.89,
    "text": "that was not very easy to edit."
  },
  {
    "start": 569.51,
    "end": 577.07,
    "text": "Very quickly from there, we started going into plaintext format which is easier to put in the version control system."
  },
  {
    "start": 577.13,
    "end": 578.71,
    "text": "so thats been a big change."
  },
  {
    "start": 580.09,
    "end": 588.51,
    "text": "Then later, at some point when we moved our quite crappy parser that was initially dealing both with those HTML files and text files."
  },
  {
    "start": 590.13,
    "end": 596.73,
    "text": "We implemented it again And had a much better parsing API which provides very good parsing model."
  },
  {
    "start": 597.67,
    "end": 607.71,
    "text": "That's supposed to be changed because then allowed Well, made it much easier to create those editors because they can also use the same parsing model and get all of that information about tokens."
  },
  {
    "start": 609.37,
    "end": 610.87,
    "text": "That's been a huge deal!"
  },
  {
    "start": 613.09,
    "end": 620.39,
    "text": "All kinds other APIs have been... But I think the biggest thing has changed over these years is the ecosystem we've got."
  },
  {
    "start": 620.71,
    "end": 631.15,
    "text": "And this one i'm really proud of something where you don't need do anything there just evolving the design decision with interfaces and so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 631.19,
    "end": 635.91,
    "text": "that Robot Framework has, how made it possible for this kind of ecosystem to grow?"
  },
  {
    "start": 636.45,
    "end": 638.17,
    "text": "And I really love our community."
  },
  {
    "start": 638.55,
    "end": 639.27,
    "text": "That is building."
  },
  {
    "start": 639.35,
    "end": 646.19,
    "text": "all these tools and companies are helping individuals as well So much bigger than the Robot Frameworks itself."
  },
  {
    "start": 646.27,
    "end": 654.93,
    "text": "If you would just take a core without anything else It could be useful especially if anywhere needed to implement all libraries yourself."
  },
  {
    "start": 655.85,
    "end": 666.01,
    "text": "But considering that you wouldn't even have these editors, You would not already make libraries in the Christians to all kinds of... test management systems and so on, it would be a totally different game."
  },
  {
    "start": 666.13,
    "end": 667.53,
    "text": "So that's the kind of key!"
  },
  {
    "start": 667.91,
    "end": 672.05,
    "text": "Yeah yeah also what I heard is that their community is so strong."
  },
  {
    "start": 672.21,
    "end": 675.73,
    "text": "they're building a lot of plugins and extensions... Exactly."
  },
  {
    "start": 675.85,
    "end": 683.37,
    "text": "And all this makes the product more aware and more flexible for the different projects."
  },
  {
    "start": 684.81,
    "end": 691.71,
    "text": "It can happen when we have new release And there have been a lot of changes internally."
  },
  {
    "start": 691.75,
    "end": 696.33,
    "text": "For normal users, when you look at the release and students even get kind to point out what was that?"
  },
  {
    "start": 696.37,
    "end": 699.51,
    "text": "There were some listener APIs that was enhanced or like... What's this event?"
  },
  {
    "start": 700.25,
    "end": 704.11,
    "text": "But then people are building solutions for it on top of that."
  },
  {
    "start": 704.15,
    "end": 709.29,
    "text": "Then they take about few months off year-to-year and then new tooling."
  },
  {
    "start": 709.39,
    "end": 711.63,
    "text": "Like for example these listner interface changes."
  },
  {
    "start": 712.13,
    "end": 714.21,
    "text": "really nearly two years ago we made big changes."
  },
  {
    "start": 714.31,
    "end": 723.25,
    "text": "They enabled make things self healing listeners that are fixing your locators on a fly and stuff like, which is of course pretty cool."
  },
  {
    "start": 723.29,
    "end": 723.35,
    "text": "Yeah"
  },
  {
    "start": 723.57,
    "end": 729.01,
    "text": "yeah when we talk about numbers in the community do you have any number?"
  },
  {
    "start": 729.17,
    "end": 731.25,
    "text": "how many installations around?"
  },
  {
    "start": 731.55,
    "end": 732.43,
    "text": "or downloads maybe?"
  },
  {
    "start": 732.47,
    "end": 733.43,
    "text": "No it's"
  },
  {
    "start": 733.49,
    "end": 745.23,
    "text": "impossible then anything exact because we get download numbers from our Python package index But they are totally inflated because continuous integration systems often in installing them over again and then."
  },
  {
    "start": 745.29,
    "end": 747.63,
    "text": "Again, so that trends on their growing."
  },
  {
    "start": 748.25,
    "end": 750.63,
    "text": "but I mean the numbers are totally crazy like it."
  },
  {
    "start": 750.67,
    "end": 755.57,
    "text": "well It's not a million or day, but it's like a million month at least about this time is not I'm not sure."
  },
  {
    "start": 756.23,
    "end": 760.31,
    "text": "Well i'm quite sure there isn't human million human everywhere every month down or something."
  },
  {
    "start": 760.37,
    "end": 765.21,
    "text": "So did kind of Innocence that it's rather useless statistics Because."
  },
  {
    "start": 767.53,
    "end": 769.23,
    "text": "But well, it's still a lot."
  },
  {
    "start": 769.37,
    "end": 773.67,
    "text": "I mean those numbers are much higher now than they were few years ago for example."
  },
  {
    "start": 773.73,
    "end": 777.39,
    "text": "so if you compare them there its been growing So that we know."
  },
  {
    "start": 778.71,
    "end": 788.53,
    "text": "Another problem with this is trying to follow trends Is that i haven't actually checked myself or heard that visitors in our web pages have been going down."
  },
  {
    "start": 789.09,
    "end": 791.13,
    "text": "But that's most likely then due to AI."
  },
  {
    "start": 791.83,
    "end": 798.99,
    "text": "So people are asking from AI, and there is no visits anymore or so on... That's the reason we aren't super worried about it."
  },
  {
    "start": 799.05,
    "end": 804.27,
    "text": "It was somehow concerning what's happening, our popularity going down when visits are getting there."
  },
  {
    "start": 804.33,
    "end": 806.27,
    "text": "but we figured out mostly for a reason."
  },
  {
    "start": 807.75,
    "end": 809.55,
    "text": "The AI tooling has visited already."
  },
  {
    "start": 809.93,
    "end": 812.31,
    "text": "When people ask questions they still get this stuff"
  },
  {
    "start": 815.47,
    "end": 816.35,
    "text": "For the ecosystem."
  },
  {
    "start": 817.11,
    "end": 819.81,
    "text": "how many plugins do you think are exist there?"
  },
  {
    "start": 819.91,
    "end": 820.41,
    "text": "if you have to?"
  },
  {
    "start": 820.77,
    "end": 821.79,
    "text": "There must be hundreds."
  },
  {
    "start": 822.21,
    "end": 828.15,
    "text": "I mean, well at least over a hundred but of course many of them aren't anymore like they can be old and not maintained any more."
  },
  {
    "start": 829.03,
    "end": 843.99,
    "text": "even in that case If they're available And then it would be relevant for your system In your context Of course Even if they aren't painted You could still take a look at the man get some inspiration Maybe start maintaining that or maybe implement something new based on those ideas and so."
  },
  {
    "start": 844.71,
    "end": 852.21,
    "text": "But yeah there's a lot, lots of libraries loads of content extensions but I haven't checked the number."
  },
  {
    "start": 854.37,
    "end": 861.97,
    "text": "René told me upfront that you are also part of the roadmap team for our framework and dealing with future."
  },
  {
    "start": 865.77,
    "end": 868.77,
    "text": "What other big things do we want to implement?"
  },
  {
    "start": 869.85,
    "end": 880.51,
    "text": "We're just about get new release out, the second beta was released last week hopefully next week or very soon anyway."
  },
  {
    "start": 882.67,
    "end": 885.93,
    "text": "The major feature in that release is called secret variables."
  },
  {
    "start": 886.63,
    "end": 895.41,
    "text": "So you can create variables when using them, passing them as arguments to keywords or getting them as return values."
  },
  {
    "start": 895.97,
    "end": 899.33,
    "text": "the actual secret value isn't locked on any kind of log level."
  },
  {
    "start": 899.79,
    "end": 903.37,
    "text": "so regardless how detailed logging will get from robots it's not accidentally disclosed."
  },
  {
    "start": 903.67,
    "end": 918.03,
    "text": "Of course you could accidentally disclose if you use it in Segoli but generally is there so that we don't log it and then you can create keywords that require the arguments to be a secret."
  },
  {
    "start": 918.09,
    "end": 927.49,
    "text": "So they only accept those secret values, dealing with that kind of a passwords or tokens."
  },
  {
    "start": 927.81,
    "end": 933.33,
    "text": "This has actually been the start world, an active community member who works for Finnish Bank OP."
  },
  {
    "start": 933.91,
    "end": 936.43,
    "text": "he's helping me because it happens to be very important."
  },
  {
    "start": 936.53,
    "end": 937.01,
    "text": "take on this."
  },
  {
    "start": 937.11,
    "end": 940.59,
    "text": "so here I've been able get some company time and work which is great."
  },
  {
    "start": 941.83,
    "end": 944.03,
    "text": "So that's coming, the feature is implemented."
  },
  {
    "start": 944.89,
    "end": 950.09,
    "text": "Yesterday actually when I was driving here from Amsterdam with René we were there in an auto conference."
  },
  {
    "start": 950.49,
    "end": 957.93,
    "text": "We were discussing about a feature on our car and then we realized one small thing should be changed And I was chatting already to Tato and he wanted me fix it."
  },
  {
    "start": 957.97,
    "end": 964.67,
    "text": "but anyway The features are done and ready To use in beta too if somebody interested."
  },
  {
    "start": 965.65,
    "end": 973.73,
    "text": "Not sure when this podcast is going to be out, if you already have the release candidate or even final release of Robot Frame Maximum IV."
  },
  {
    "start": 974.35,
    "end": 975.33,
    "text": "But yeah it's there!"
  },
  {
    "start": 976.15,
    "end": 988.85,
    "text": "The next... After that I'm most likely going to concentrate on our user guide which has a very detailed manual like about all features and reference manuals."
  },
  {
    "start": 989.71,
    "end": 995.25,
    "text": "It's awesome But it's very old technology, like we generate this huge HTML file."
  },
  {
    "start": 995.29,
    "end": 999.47,
    "text": "If you would print it, It will be a hundred pages so it doesn't look that good."
  },
  {
    "start": 1000.33,
    "end": 1010.33,
    "text": "content is great but I want to make it more modern and also at the same time when we modernize it We want to prove read it then makes sure information isn't outdated."
  },
  {
    "start": 1010.59,
    "end": 1014.57,
    "text": "So thats what i'm going to consider next with some other people from our community."
  },
  {
    "start": 1016.61,
    "end": 1017.89,
    "text": "After that, what will happen?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1017.95,
    "end": 1021.03,
    "text": "Will it be Robot Framework VII-V or maybe VIII-O next?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1021.93,
    "end": 1023.07,
    "text": "isn't yet sure."
  },
  {
    "start": 1023.21,
    "end": 1039.209,
    "text": "But most likely we are going to have one more like feature release in this Robot Frameworks VII series where I think one of the key features is going to mark down support for our documentation because We had supported different kind of documents and formats on writing a keyword library keyword documentation And there's document SM so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 1039.27,
    "end": 1046.569,
    "text": "but we don't support Markdown at the moment de facto standard, and that's what AI tools use as someone."
  },
  {
    "start": 1046.609,
    "end": 1051.929,
    "text": "So I think we absolutely need to add support for that going forward."
  },
  {
    "start": 1053.389,
    "end": 1060.03,
    "text": "one thing that is bothering people in bigger projects Is the namespace related to keywords?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1060.629,
    "end": 1062.79,
    "text": "That you import and variables at your input."
  },
  {
    "start": 1063.149,
    "end": 1065.629,
    "text": "when you import so called resource files they are."
  },
  {
    "start": 1066.429,
    "end": 1067.29,
    "text": "They are badly designed."
  },
  {
    "start": 1067.469,
    "end": 1072.129,
    "text": "Well, I can say that they're bad design because i've designed them so it's... You allowed to!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1072.29,
    "end": 1075.409,
    "text": "Yeah, I'm totally allowed to say that That is a bad design."
  },
  {
    "start": 1077.61,
    "end": 1081.709,
    "text": "There have been reasons why its being designed like this but It just doesn't make sense in larger context."
  },
  {
    "start": 1081.75,
    "end": 1090.25,
    "text": "So we need to fix that and thats going to be quite big task Because first of all how do you want the design?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1091.27,
    "end": 1097.27,
    "text": "Then we need implement that And also make sure that the old bad ways still work."
  },
  {
    "start": 1097.909,
    "end": 1102.37,
    "text": "We probably want to emit their percussion warnings if you are using the Bad Ways, but we cannot do it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1102.429,
    "end": 1115.129,
    "text": "so just break everybody's test and coming up with a new release saying now this namespace is there... Now they're working well as they should be and then people's test cases breaks or aren't going to be happy."
  },
  {
    "start": 1115.909,
    "end": 1128.83,
    "text": "So of course I'm going forward because we want to make that the only way But in mind which is something we need to do also otherwise and try to avoid breaking people's test."
  },
  {
    "start": 1128.909,
    "end": 1131.389,
    "text": "So that will be an extra challenge there."
  },
  {
    "start": 1132.75,
    "end": 1139.409,
    "text": "Yeah, so great things are coming but you're doing a software product for testers."
  },
  {
    "start": 1141.05,
    "end": 1142.03,
    "text": "They are very critical."
  },
  {
    "start": 1144.31,
    "end": 1148.81,
    "text": "Do you get many back tickets or issues from the community?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1152.05,
    "end": 1160.729,
    "text": "Of course Not that many though, I mean considering how big robot framework codebase is and much it does."
  },
  {
    "start": 1160.79,
    "end": 1171.27,
    "text": "It's not that many bug reports but of course there are things that aren't always expected... But well we're using Robot Framework to test Robot Frameworks."
  },
  {
    "start": 1171.57,
    "end": 1172.669,
    "text": "That was my next question!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1172.79,
    "end": 1173.51,
    "text": "Yeah great!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1174.189,
    "end": 1178.629,
    "text": "We have close to seven thousand test cases for Robot Framewalks."
  },
  {
    "start": 1178.689,
    "end": 1181.689,
    "text": "then we had some unit tests as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 1182.55,
    "end": 1192.79,
    "text": "We are using a robot framework, when testing the robot framework in cases where actually unit-testing tools would make more sense but we want to kind of drive it to extreme and see how it works there."
  },
  {
    "start": 1194.389,
    "end": 1198.129,
    "text": "In other normal projects unit-testing tools will be better for some of those cases."
  },
  {
    "start": 1199.37,
    "end": 1204.949,
    "text": "But yeah...we have the asm test tooling around so its quite easy to edit these new tests."
  },
  {
    "start": 1206.229,
    "end": 1217.83,
    "text": "So yea..We do get that I'm very pedantic with my programming And what I love about working for this Robot Framework Founders nowadays is that they also trust me and don't push me, okay?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1217.889,
    "end": 1219.169,
    "text": "Now you should have the release out."
  },
  {
    "start": 1219.389,
    "end": 1220.909,
    "text": "You should rush it to get a bit better."
  },
  {
    "start": 1221.61,
    "end": 1233.909,
    "text": "They are allowed to work so there's no technical depth piling in... ...and i can make those features work And that's in long term, much better."
  },
  {
    "start": 1233.969,
    "end": 1235.449,
    "text": "We can keep it steady state."
  },
  {
    "start": 1236.03,
    "end": 1245.53,
    "text": "if I would be rushing and putting half-finished release features out then we need... Then i needed to next be fixing those and trying them."
  },
  {
    "start": 1245.909,
    "end": 1250.49,
    "text": "put some bandage there and at the end code base will be in horrible shape."
  },
  {
    "start": 1250.99,
    "end": 1255.389,
    "text": "Yeah this is a problem of lot project dealing with because developer are so under pressure."
  },
  {
    "start": 1255.53,
    "end": 1259.129,
    "text": "So you could develop your plan good quality which"
  },
  {
    "start": 1259.169,
    "end": 1259.87,
    "text": "is important."
  },
  {
    "start": 1260.729,
    "end": 1263.29,
    "text": "We needed then, I mean if we wanted to be fast in that way."
  },
  {
    "start": 1263.35,
    "end": 1264.31,
    "text": "Then we need a team."
  },
  {
    "start": 1264.51,
    "end": 1265.75,
    "text": "make it sustainable."
  },
  {
    "start": 1265.79,
    "end": 1271.57,
    "text": "but now i'm mostly working us alone... ...we have contributors of course contributing the core."
  },
  {
    "start": 1271.99,
    "end": 1273.59,
    "text": "The major contributor is the ecosystem."
  },
  {
    "start": 1273.649,
    "end": 1279.57,
    "text": "so thats the easiest way to contribute because you don't need contact me and say how should this behave?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1279.649,
    "end": 1283.81,
    "text": "You just use robots API's And that´s how people are contributing most."
  },
  {
    "start": 1283.85,
    "end": 1294.949,
    "text": "But their contribution of course the core as well base of people who actually know the core well to help more, starting maybe in a future review for requests and so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 1295.01,
    "end": 1296.61,
    "text": "but that's slow process as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 1297.79,
    "end": 1302.29,
    "text": "So me being only active developer there isn't great."
  },
  {
    "start": 1302.909,
    "end": 1312.61,
    "text": "it would be good to have someone more often to discuss complicated design decisions also because it was faster."
  },
  {
    "start": 1315.669,
    "end": 1317.729,
    "text": "If something happens to me, what then?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1318.149,
    "end": 1319.409,
    "text": "The code is relatively good."
  },
  {
    "start": 1319.79,
    "end": 1323.49,
    "text": "I'm not really worried that if anything would happen with the project it will die."
  },
  {
    "start": 1323.689,
    "end": 1329.55,
    "text": "but of course still having more people involved in actual core development would be great as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 1330.969,
    "end": 1331.409,
    "text": "Sounds great."
  },
  {
    "start": 1332.969,
    "end": 1337.889,
    "text": "Speaking to the software testing community, do you have any wishes for them?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1339.229,
    "end": 1345.709,
    "text": "What they can contribute or what they could do with a robot framework that would make it more useful and grow?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1346.669,
    "end": 1359.209,
    "text": "In general I think if we are using a robot framework and spreading the word about it is good so people know about it... ...I personally know very well this isn't always right!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1359.81,
    "end": 1360.81,
    "text": "choice for every project."
  },
  {
    "start": 1360.85,
    "end": 1367.35,
    "text": "So I'm not trying to say that everybody should use it and so on, but what would be good if people in general knew about it?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1368.05,
    "end": 1373.709,
    "text": "When they are thinking of solutions like this is the project or context where we now need automation solution?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1373.77,
    "end": 1378.149,
    "text": "If they know about robot framework its capabilities then you can see okay Would that be a good choice?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1378.209,
    "end": 1379.229,
    "text": "Or do i have something else?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1379.59,
    "end": 1384.229,
    "text": "And It's totally fine when someone says Well Something Else Is Better But In some cases Robot Framework Will Be Better."
  },
  {
    "start": 1384.85,
    "end": 1387.729,
    "text": "And if they don't know about it, that's their kind of zero sense."
  },
  {
    "start": 1387.77,
    "end": 1389.29,
    "text": "They want to choose itself off course."
  },
  {
    "start": 1389.629,
    "end": 1390.35,
    "text": "so that would be good."
  },
  {
    "start": 1390.389,
    "end": 1392.469,
    "text": "but the people in general just knew about it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1393.649,
    "end": 1401.889,
    "text": "and nowadays for example Germany I think is very well known almost most people in industry already knows about it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1401.929,
    "end": 1402.81,
    "text": "So this isn't a big problem."
  },
  {
    "start": 1402.87,
    "end": 1413.949,
    "text": "But then there are other countries where we're spreading slowly which is about kind of related that it's interesting, we have very active community for example in Thailand."
  },
  {
    "start": 1414.409,
    "end": 1424.709,
    "text": "We had no contact with them there but you can see now and then like blog post or something like that in Thai okay so...and then we have a very very active Community also in Brazil."
  },
  {
    "start": 1424.75,
    "end": 1432.81,
    "text": "yeah..we have some contacts there But someone has learned about that And they use it as grow."
  },
  {
    "start": 1432.929,
    "end": 1435.29,
    "text": "So there are interesting pockets around the world."
  },
  {
    "start": 1436.229,
    "end": 1438.81,
    "text": "it can also be that if you go like."
  },
  {
    "start": 1438.87,
    "end": 1441.77,
    "text": "well I think Denmark for example which is a relatively cold."
  },
  {
    "start": 1441.83,
    "end": 1444.61,
    "text": "so as i don't think they most people know about the framework there."
  },
  {
    "start": 1445.209,
    "end": 1448.51,
    "text": "yeah okay interesting though, different countries."
  },
  {
    "start": 1448.929,
    "end": 1453.129,
    "text": "Yeah because we have all the information available and so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 1454.27,
    "end": 1457.03,
    "text": "um If someone learns about it then gets interested."
  },
  {
    "start": 1457.07,
    "end": 1460.01,
    "text": "They can study it And spread their word in their own language."
  },
  {
    "start": 1461.57,
    "end": 1462.29,
    "text": "It's interesting."
  },
  {
    "start": 1463.61,
    "end": 1470.85,
    "text": "But yes big fish, wish for me that if you know about it then... You can spread the word."
  },
  {
    "start": 1470.889,
    "end": 1481.09,
    "text": "And of course I mean.. If your benefiting a lot and we have this founders and that is sponsoring development paying some other people also to develop and so on That would be very good."
  },
  {
    "start": 1481.149,
    "end": 1482.389,
    "text": "if more companies join."
  },
  {
    "start": 1482.449,
    "end": 1490.29,
    "text": "We already had our over eighty but there are many much more companies using robot framework So kind of."
  },
  {
    "start": 1490.669,
    "end": 1491.55,
    "text": "that will be really good."
  },
  {
    "start": 1492.629,
    "end": 1492.889,
    "text": "And yeah,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1492.949,
    "end": 1500.83,
    "text": "I think that's a good idea to ask for companies to join also the foundation... ...to stabilize their funding of future."
  },
  {
    "start": 1501.29,
    "end": 1501.629,
    "text": "Exactly!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1502.49,
    "end": 1509.149,
    "text": "Of course it is easy now to be kind-of freewheeling because others are paying you don't need them but not the nicest attitude."
  },
  {
    "start": 1509.389,
    "end": 1530.11,
    "text": "our membership fees aren't big so if compared with commercial licenses or any software testing tools they were for single use and higher But these small smallish some stay really help in our case and It makes it so that the development is sustainable."
  },
  {
    "start": 1530.169,
    "end": 1533.09,
    "text": "And hopefully I mean, that would also help with having more people."
  },
  {
    "start": 1533.229,
    "end": 1535.07,
    "text": "were people working With the core."
  },
  {
    "start": 1535.129,
    "end": 1537.11,
    "text": "Yeah We hope to be."
  },
  {
    "start": 1537.25,
    "end": 1540.11,
    "text": "we'll get more people who are kind of spawned So they can do that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1540.149,
    "end": 1542.889,
    "text": "you know work time like that Who has really lately been able to do?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1543.189,
    "end": 1546.81,
    "text": "but off also Having sort as we could have self-employed People or something like that?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1546.85,
    "end": 1551.11,
    "text": "But if he can also pay like there's like unpaid For for the works that will be."
  },
  {
    "start": 1552.27,
    "end": 1554.49,
    "text": "That would be good and make it the whole thing more sustainable."
  },
  {
    "start": 1554.55,
    "end": 1557.709,
    "text": "And of course, we have a lot of projects in the ecosystem that we'd love to fund."
  },
  {
    "start": 1557.77,
    "end": 1565.649,
    "text": "We are funding some like the editor at the moment But even more will be good than if this helps with everybody."
  },
  {
    "start": 1566.669,
    "end": 1572.75,
    "text": "Another way you want help us is... You get concrete benefit from joining our conference."
  },
  {
    "start": 1572.79,
    "end": 1575.51,
    "text": "So we've got Robocon Conference coming."
  },
  {
    "start": 1576.629,
    "end": 1578.669,
    "text": "It's in February, next year."
  },
  {
    "start": 1580.169,
    "end": 1582.629,
    "text": "In Helsinki and then online in March."
  },
  {
    "start": 1584.11,
    "end": 1597.03,
    "text": "We actually have been lately thinking that maybe we should start running Robocon conference also elsewhere than Finland But the time is only a few months away but it has everything around free servers."
  },
  {
    "start": 1597.27,
    "end": 1600.59,
    "text": "That isn't going to move And most likely after it will be too soon."
  },
  {
    "start": 1601.51,
    "end": 1603.189,
    "text": "There are ten times."
  },
  {
    "start": 1603.229,
    "end": 1605.189,
    "text": "so I want to still have that in Helsinki."
  },
  {
    "start": 1605.31,
    "end": 1610.689,
    "text": "There's the possibility that we, after that want to get Germany or somewhere else."
  },
  {
    "start": 1610.75,
    "end": 1614.149,
    "text": "We have a lot of users in Germany and also close back countries."
  },
  {
    "start": 1614.189,
    "end": 1617.35,
    "text": "so it would be easier for people from like Netherlands come here."
  },
  {
    "start": 1618.709,
    "end": 1622.709,
    "text": "So it's also an opportunity to come together as the community."
  },
  {
    "start": 1624.05,
    "end": 1627.169,
    "text": "It is awesome conference, very nice atmosphere there."
  },
  {
    "start": 1627.229,
    "end": 1634.33,
    "text": "we have had lately like three hundred fifty people on site or three hundred something like that before covid even more closer than five-hundred."
  },
  {
    "start": 1634.389,
    "end": 1642.189,
    "text": "but well things then went down and maybe in Finland interest has been slightly going down because if you've been running so many times with me they'll be there."
  },
  {
    "start": 1642.27,
    "end": 1642.85,
    "text": "its been great."
  },
  {
    "start": 1644.629,
    "end": 1646.229,
    "text": "Maybe it's not anymore like new."
  },
  {
    "start": 1646.669,
    "end": 1652.889,
    "text": "So that's also one reason I think maybe we should go somewhere else where there would be people who will come the first time or second time."
  },
  {
    "start": 1653.889,
    "end": 1657.87,
    "text": "But yeah, still relatively big and a nice atmosphere is great creating."
  },
  {
    "start": 1657.929,
    "end": 1660.469,
    "text": "so if you can't come i highly recommend coming on site."
  },
  {
    "start": 1660.51,
    "end": 1665.229,
    "text": "but Also The online experience pretty good Great talks there as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 1665.51,
    "end": 1666.11,
    "text": "You get access."
  },
  {
    "start": 1666.189,
    "end": 1671.55,
    "text": "If you join the online conference you'll get access to all all presentation in the on-site."
  },
  {
    "start": 1671.649,
    "end": 1680.969,
    "text": "We are going to eventually, because we want help out...we want to grow the community and make even older folks available eventually but will release them like slowly over a year."
  },
  {
    "start": 1681.07,
    "end": 1686.33,
    "text": "so if there's something you really wanna see actually need come at least with your own site sorry online."
  },
  {
    "start": 1687.629,
    "end": 1688.77,
    "text": "So yeah that's about it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1688.81,
    "end": 1691.129,
    "text": "There is basically an onsite gathering."
  },
  {
    "start": 1691.169,
    "end": 1695.77,
    "text": "It's very good for lot of family faces and nice atmosphere And we're welcoming new people as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 1696.57,
    "end": 1699.83,
    "text": "Yeah, and maybe in the future there will be some Robocon in Germany too."
  },
  {
    "start": 1700.07,
    "end": 1701.35,
    "text": "We'll"
  },
  {
    "start": 1701.429,
    "end": 1702.11,
    "text": "see."
  },
  {
    "start": 1702.169,
    "end": 1704.929,
    "text": "we've been earlier thinking that should we start running like multiple?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1704.99,
    "end": 1706.53,
    "text": "Like one in Finland or somewhere else."
  },
  {
    "start": 1706.59,
    "end": 1710.61,
    "text": "but most likely That's not a good idea because then it kind of the community is going to split."
  },
  {
    "start": 1710.729,
    "end": 1712.99,
    "text": "Not everybody can go through all possible conferences."
  },
  {
    "start": 1713.07,
    "end": 1722.55,
    "text": "So at the moment for me It feels like we should do two years In One place And Then Two Years Some Other Place Maybe Back To Finland For One Year Or Something."
  },
  {
    "start": 1724.25,
    "end": 1725.429,
    "text": "No promises at the moment."
  },
  {
    "start": 1725.669,
    "end": 1732.709,
    "text": "Next one is certainly Finland, most likely then year after that it's still in Finland because It actually takes quite a long time to design this."
  },
  {
    "start": 1732.85,
    "end": 1734.27,
    "text": "I mean to plan these so it said."
  },
  {
    "start": 1735.07,
    "end": 1738.669,
    "text": "So we are next The twenty seven as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 1738.729,
    "end": 1743.669,
    "text": "if you want have it in early twenty-seven school Most likely also going to be somewhat complicated."
  },
  {
    "start": 1743.87,
    "end": 1747.79,
    "text": "come up with new Event partners and so on but we'll see."
  },
  {
    "start": 1748.35,
    "end": 1749.409,
    "text": "Yeah, sounds very interesting."
  },
  {
    "start": 1749.55,
    "end": 1753.469,
    "text": "So we will put all the information stuff links and so in the show notes."
  },
  {
    "start": 1753.629,
    "end": 1760.389,
    "text": "if everyone want to join a community their conference The ecosystem they will find all things there."
  },
  {
    "start": 1761.01,
    "end": 1765.429,
    "text": "You can chat with René If he can furnish you discount code for Robocon."
  },
  {
    "start": 1767.11,
    "end": 1768.689,
    "text": "I cannot promise anything But"
  },
  {
    "start": 1769.449,
    "end": 1773.729,
    "text": "i think... I would check that it'll be fine in the Show Notes if we get some."
  },
  {
    "start": 1773.79,
    "end": 1783.149,
    "text": "That is possible At least on online because that's something where we can of course take many more people with easily and so That should be possible."
  },
  {
    "start": 1783.35,
    "end": 1783.449,
    "text": "Yeah,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1783.55,
    "end": 1784.969,
    "text": "it is a great offer for the community."
  },
  {
    "start": 1785.05,
    "end": 1787.07,
    "text": "So I would say i will talk to René now"
  },
  {
    "start": 1787.59,
    "end": 1789.409,
    "text": "And then you need to cut this out if he didn't work."
  },
  {
    "start": 1789.51,
    "end": 1791.729,
    "text": "otherwise yeah Or was it okay?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1791.79,
    "end": 1792.37,
    "text": "We just tried."
  },
  {
    "start": 1794.35,
    "end": 1802.31,
    "text": "Thank You very much that you joined the show and gave us these insights in their history and they actual development of the robot framework."
  },
  {
    "start": 1802.389,
    "end": 1804.53,
    "text": "I hope you will enjoy the rest of the conference too."
  },
  {
    "start": 1804.77,
    "end": 1808.49,
    "text": "It's mainly in German, but maybe you find your slots and just speaking"
  },
  {
    "start": 1808.85,
    "end": 1809.77,
    "text": "with partners here?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1809.81,
    "end": 1813.35,
    "text": "Yeah yeah there are a few talks in English that I'm also planning to go see."
  },
  {
    "start": 1813.429,
    "end": 1822.87,
    "text": "And i actually got here mostly because this is run by Imbus which one of the well it's reynes company One our member companies."
  },
  {
    "start": 1822.909,
    "end": 1827.05,
    "text": "so we've got here to join these kind of podcast to be around."
  },
  {
    "start": 1827.429,
    "end": 1835.09,
    "text": "As I said, we were in Amsterdam at another conference earlier so it was easy to get here and find back home from Frankfurt."
  },
  {
    "start": 1835.129,
    "end": 1835.949,
    "text": "Yeah that's great!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1836.01,
    "end": 1836.969,
    "text": "So enjoy the rest."
  },
  {
    "start": 1837.53,
    "end": 1839.229,
    "text": "have a good time safe travel home."
  },
  {
    "start": 1839.87,
    "end": 1842.209,
    "text": "see you soon bye-bye."
  }
]