[
  {
    "start": 0.001,
    "end": 2.06,
    "text": "People are happy when the automated test pass."
  },
  {
    "start": 2.54,
    "end": 3.18,
    "text": "When it fails,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3.53,
    "end": 4.26,
    "text": "they look at the test."
  },
  {
    "start": 4.34,
    "end": 5.42,
    "text": "What is wrong with the test case?"
  },
  {
    "start": 6.66,
    "end": 10.0,
    "text": "I see a lot of flaky tests created by AI."
  },
  {
    "start": 10.16,
    "end": 11.58,
    "text": "And I don't have a problem with flaky tests."
  },
  {
    "start": 11.68,
    "end": 12.88,
    "text": "I mean, flaky tests are there,"
  },
  {
    "start": 12.93,
    "end": 15.12,
    "text": "whether these are human generated or AI generated."
  },
  {
    "start": 15.9,
    "end": 19.68,
    "text": "I do have a problem with the quality that AI produces."
  },
  {
    "start": 21.1,
    "end": 23.96,
    "text": "It doesn't help that an AI or any kind of other tool"
  },
  {
    "start": 24.48,
    "end": 27.46,
    "text": "is creating reports about code coverage or whatever."
  },
  {
    "start": 27.96,
    "end": 31.6,
    "text": "Management doesn't understand code coverage or requirements coverage."
  },
  {
    "start": 32.84,
    "end": 37.12,
    "text": "So we are abandoning a whole generation of junior testers and developers and analysts"
  },
  {
    "start": 37.72,
    "end": 39.02,
    "text": "which we're replacing by AI."
  },
  {
    "start": 39.78,
    "end": 41.86,
    "text": "The older generation, the experienced people,"
  },
  {
    "start": 41.98,
    "end": 43.08,
    "text": "will have to check the work."
  },
  {
    "start": 43.72,
    "end": 45.62,
    "text": "So where are the new experienced people coming from?"
  },
  {
    "start": 46.3,
    "end": 48.66,
    "text": "Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed."
  },
  {
    "start": 48.9,
    "end": 52.28,
    "text": "My name is Richie and I'm happy to share an episode from"
  },
  {
    "start": 52.28,
    "end": 58.04,
    "text": "the QualityLand Conference in Vilnius. My guest today was Michaël Pilaeten and we talked about"
  },
  {
    "start": 58.36,
    "end": 61.0,
    "text": "test automation and how to find the right balance."
  },
  {
    "start": 61.2,
    "end": 65.56,
    "text": "Why 100% coverage on 6 million lines of old code"
  },
  {
    "start": 65.72,
    "end": 66.52,
    "text": "makes no sense,"
  },
  {
    "start": 66.96,
    "end": 71.0,
    "text": "why testers and automation engineers are two different roles and what"
  },
  {
    "start": 70.76,
    "end": 73.8,
    "text": "what happens when AI ships poor quality faster."
  },
  {
    "start": 74.08,
    "end": 75.8,
    "text": "That all you hear now in this episode,"
  },
  {
    "start": 76.22,
    "end": 76.3,
    "text": "enjoy."
  },
  {
    "start": 77.819,
    "end": 78.7,
    "text": "(upbeat music)"
  },
  {
    "start": 86.82,
    "end": 87.0,
    "text": "Hello,"
  },
  {
    "start": 87.22,
    "end": 88.4,
    "text": "Michael, great to have you on the show."
  },
  {
    "start": 89.22,
    "end": 89.68,
    "text": "Thank you, Richard,"
  },
  {
    "start": 89.9,
    "end": 90.42,
    "text": "thanks for having me."
  },
  {
    "start": 91.08,
    "end": 93.44,
    "text": "I have now to decide how to pronounce your name,"
  },
  {
    "start": 93.52,
    "end": 94.6,
    "text": "we just talked about it."
  },
  {
    "start": 94.98,
    "end": 95.32,
    "text": "(laughing)"
  },
  {
    "start": 95.78,
    "end": 97.52,
    "text": "Which one should I choose?"
  },
  {
    "start": 97.72,
    "end": 99.44,
    "text": "So I choose Michael."
  },
  {
    "start": 99.6,
    "end": 100.08,
    "text": "Okay, fine."
  },
  {
    "start": 100.52,
    "end": 101.14,
    "text": "Okay for today."
  },
  {
    "start": 101.26,
    "end": 101.44,
    "text": "Yes."
  },
  {
    "start": 102.479,
    "end": 103.6,
    "text": "Great that you are here."
  },
  {
    "start": 103.68,
    "end": 106.44,
    "text": "We are here in Vilnius at the QualityLand Conference."
  },
  {
    "start": 107.75,
    "end": 109.88,
    "text": "We both had our speeches today."
  },
  {
    "start": 110.78,
    "end": 112.16,
    "text": "Now we can relax,"
  },
  {
    "start": 112.36,
    "end": 113.82,
    "text": "sit here and have our conversation."
  },
  {
    "start": 115.12,
    "end": 118.68,
    "text": "And I read your abstract and it's about test automation."
  },
  {
    "start": 120.73,
    "end": 126.36,
    "text": "And I was really happy because there was not an AI, AI, AI, AI abstract."
  },
  {
    "start": 127.2,
    "end": 133.08,
    "text": "It was about test automation and how to do it the right way or a better way than usual."
  },
  {
    "start": 133.76,
    "end": 134.3,
    "text": "So that's,"
  },
  {
    "start": 134.5,
    "end": 136.82,
    "text": "I think, a topic we have to discuss here in the podcast."
  },
  {
    "start": 137.08,
    "end": 137.94,
    "text": "I'd love to."
  },
  {
    "start": 138.0,
    "end": 138.28,
    "text": "I mean,"
  },
  {
    "start": 138.76,
    "end": 141.36,
    "text": "and it's true wherever you go on whatever conference nowadays,"
  },
  {
    "start": 141.58,
    "end": 142.18,
    "text": "it's all AI."
  },
  {
    "start": 142.38,
    "end": 148.24,
    "text": "And I understand because boardrooms worldwide are infected by the AI disease because they"
  },
  {
    "start": 148.66,
    "end": 151.54,
    "text": "have some kind of Gartner report that you need to invest everything in AI."
  },
  {
    "start": 152.18,
    "end": 154.78,
    "text": "So all other investments are stopped or almost everything is stopped."
  },
  {
    "start": 155.4,
    "end": 158.48,
    "text": "test automation is going down because all investment go to AI."
  },
  {
    "start": 159.62,
    "end": 160.66,
    "text": "But still we can learn a lot."
  },
  {
    "start": 160.78,
    "end": 164.68,
    "text": "So the talk was not so much about that we needed to test automation."
  },
  {
    "start": 164.7,
    "end": 166.7,
    "text": "It's about finding right balance between everything."
  },
  {
    "start": 168.02,
    "end": 168.72,
    "text": "And as I told,"
  },
  {
    "start": 169.76,
    "end": 171.06,
    "text": "context defines everything."
  },
  {
    "start": 171.9,
    "end": 174.52,
    "text": "So depending on your type of organization,"
  },
  {
    "start": 174.76,
    "end": 175.74,
    "text": "your type of customer,"
  },
  {
    "start": 175.92,
    "end": 176.86,
    "text": "your type of software,"
  },
  {
    "start": 177.08,
    "end": 178.88,
    "text": "your value stream, your business streams,"
  },
  {
    "start": 179.72,
    "end": 181.68,
    "text": "the choices you make are very different."
  },
  {
    "start": 181.88,
    "end": 184.38,
    "text": "So you need to adapt your strategy and your policy,"
  },
  {
    "start": 185.15,
    "end": 187.46,
    "text": "whether it's AI or automation or manual"
  },
  {
    "start": 187.58,
    "end": 187.88,
    "text": "testing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 188.38,
    "end": 189.26,
    "text": "those need to be balanced."
  },
  {
    "start": 190.92,
    "end": 193.12,
    "text": "Do you have an example for us for automation,"
  },
  {
    "start": 193.32,
    "end": 195.86,
    "text": "especially what the context, what different"
  },
  {
    "start": 195.94,
    "end": 196.96,
    "text": "contexts can mean there?"
  },
  {
    "start": 197.96,
    "end": 198.06,
    "text": "Well,"
  },
  {
    "start": 198.44,
    "end": 199.6,
    "text": "I have one from day to day life."
  },
  {
    "start": 199.74,
    "end": 205.56,
    "text": "So I was working in a company where they have a huge code base,"
  },
  {
    "start": 205.9,
    "end": 207.06,
    "text": "so more than 6 million lines"
  },
  {
    "start": 207.12,
    "end": 207.4,
    "text": "of code,"
  },
  {
    "start": 207.76,
    "end": 210.12,
    "text": "which is rather old."
  },
  {
    "start": 210.24,
    "end": 211.1,
    "text": "So it's very stable,"
  },
  {
    "start": 211.4,
    "end": 212.38,
    "text": "it's monolithic software,"
  },
  {
    "start": 212.78,
    "end": 213.5,
    "text": "that piece at least."
  },
  {
    "start": 214.44,
    "end": 215.4,
    "text": "It's still written in COBOL,"
  },
  {
    "start": 215.8,
    "end": 216.9,
    "text": "so very, very old."
  },
  {
    "start": 218.62,
    "end": 221.64,
    "text": "But it's stable, it works in production, no production issues, it's just as it is."
  },
  {
    "start": 222.62,
    "end": 226.1,
    "text": "But the company is undergoing a change and they want to refactor all that code."
  },
  {
    "start": 226.13,
    "end": 228.5,
    "text": "They want to translate it to some new languages or whatever."
  },
  {
    "start": 228.94,
    "end": 230.08,
    "text": "So they need unit tests for that."
  },
  {
    "start": 230.99,
    "end": 231.82,
    "text": "So we got the assignment,"
  },
  {
    "start": 232.06,
    "end": 234.98,
    "text": "write unit tests for it and automate it to 100% coverage."
  },
  {
    "start": 235.92,
    "end": 236.52,
    "text": "But then the question,"
  },
  {
    "start": 236.76,
    "end": 237.36,
    "text": "what is the use?"
  },
  {
    "start": 237.64,
    "end": 242.56,
    "text": "writing test cases to have six million line of code covered in unit test is a"
  },
  {
    "start": 242.58,
    "end": 246.66,
    "text": "tremendous effort even with using AI because AI will do a great job but you"
  },
  {
    "start": 246.76,
    "end": 249.82,
    "text": "still need to check it, you need to verify it, you validate the test cases."
  },
  {
    "start": 250.62,
    "end": 253.02,
    "text": "And then every time a developer is going to push commit,"
  },
  {
    "start": 253.84,
    "end": 254.88,
    "text": "that is two hours of"
  },
  {
    "start": 254.98,
    "end": 256.239,
    "text": "test cases running automatically."
  },
  {
    "start": 257.06,
    "end": 261.039,
    "text": "So is it worth the effort of having that kind"
  },
  {
    "start": 261.04,
    "end": 263.02,
    "text": "of investment for very little benefit."
  },
  {
    "start": 264.48,
    "end": 266.18,
    "text": "So that is always a choice."
  },
  {
    "start": 267.48,
    "end": 270.4,
    "text": "I've seen tests automated very good,"
  },
  {
    "start": 271.78,
    "end": 275.18,
    "text": "but then we let AI do some self-healing and all of"
  },
  {
    "start": 275.22,
    "end": 278.62,
    "text": "a sudden all the asserts were taken out of the validated test cases."
  },
  {
    "start": 279.77,
    "end": 281.98,
    "text": "So because if the pipeline fails,"
  },
  {
    "start": 282.44,
    "end": 284.5,
    "text": "nobody likes a failed pipeline or a dashboard,"
  },
  {
    "start": 285.2,
    "end": 285.78,
    "text": "so we allow"
  },
  {
    "start": 285.84,
    "end": 287.04,
    "text": "our agents to heal that,"
  },
  {
    "start": 287.7,
    "end": 289.1,
    "text": "but they never look at production code."
  },
  {
    "start": 289.92,
    "end": 291.6,
    "text": "take away the problems in the test case."
  },
  {
    "start": 291.98,
    "end": 293.8,
    "text": "And then everything is green and when something is green,"
  },
  {
    "start": 294.1,
    "end": 295.4,
    "text": "nobody looks at it because we're"
  },
  {
    "start": 295.4,
    "end": 297.18,
    "text": "fighting fire the entire time as testers."
  },
  {
    "start": 298.26,
    "end": 302.82,
    "text": "So we assume that everything is okay because we call ourselves now quality assurance people,"
  },
  {
    "start": 303.9,
    "end": 305.42,
    "text": "but we don't assure quality anymore."
  },
  {
    "start": 305.48,
    "end": 307.38,
    "text": "So it's about finding that balance."
  },
  {
    "start": 307.62,
    "end": 308.1,
    "text": "Yeah, yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 308.46,
    "end": 309.48,
    "text": "Yeah, I think that's so true."
  },
  {
    "start": 309.72,
    "end": 314.88,
    "text": "And what you said I like also is because often people when they talk about test automation,"
  },
  {
    "start": 315.44,
    "end": 319.6,
    "text": "They think or mean end-to-end UI automation."
  },
  {
    "start": 319.78,
    "end": 321.26,
    "text": "You just mentioned unit tests,"
  },
  {
    "start": 321.44,
    "end": 323.34,
    "text": "which are automated tests in case."
  },
  {
    "start": 323.98,
    "end": 326.16,
    "text": "So it's not just the UI testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 326.19,
    "end": 332.26,
    "text": "We have a lot of different levels for AI testing, automation testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 333.52,
    "end": 336.8,
    "text": "Yeah, and it's even further than that because when people talk about testing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 337.0,
    "end": 338.2,
    "text": "testing in"
  },
  {
    "start": 338.36,
    "end": 340.54,
    "text": "general is for me a profession,"
  },
  {
    "start": 340.92,
    "end": 341.56,
    "text": "it's a skill,"
  },
  {
    "start": 342.2,
    "end": 344.359,
    "text": "it's something that we do that has multiple"
  },
  {
    "start": 344.36,
    "end": 344.88,
    "text": "objectives."
  },
  {
    "start": 345.5,
    "end": 349.06,
    "text": "It can mean verifying that software works or validating it's useful"
  },
  {
    "start": 349.2,
    "end": 349.56,
    "text": "purpose,"
  },
  {
    "start": 350.24,
    "end": 351.78,
    "text": "but most testers find their,"
  },
  {
    "start": 351.94,
    "end": 354.04,
    "text": "please find their eagerness in finding"
  },
  {
    "start": 354.16,
    "end": 354.52,
    "text": "defects."
  },
  {
    "start": 355.62,
    "end": 358.16,
    "text": "An automated test rarely finds defects."
  },
  {
    "start": 358.74,
    "end": 359.7,
    "text": "People are happy when the"
  },
  {
    "start": 359.74,
    "end": 360.7,
    "text": "automated test pass."
  },
  {
    "start": 361.18,
    "end": 361.84,
    "text": "When it fails,"
  },
  {
    "start": 362.16,
    "end": 363.62,
    "text": "they look at the test, what is wrong with the"
  },
  {
    "start": 363.62,
    "end": 364.06,
    "text": "test case?"
  },
  {
    "start": 365.06,
    "end": 365.92,
    "text": "Which is weird."
  },
  {
    "start": 366.1,
    "end": 368.02,
    "text": "So those things are complementary."
  },
  {
    "start": 368.28,
    "end": 369.08,
    "text": "I mean, we need"
  },
  {
    "start": 369.22,
    "end": 373.359,
    "text": "automated tests to make sure that the repetitive work is done and difficult"
  },
  {
    "start": 373.36,
    "end": 375.66,
    "text": "is done and the different activities are done,"
  },
  {
    "start": 375.78,
    "end": 378.42,
    "text": "if you have to execute the same test 100 times"
  },
  {
    "start": 379.04,
    "end": 381.32,
    "text": "with different user profiles and different contract types"
  },
  {
    "start": 381.38,
    "end": 382.38,
    "text": "and all these options,"
  },
  {
    "start": 382.78,
    "end": 383.88,
    "text": "of course, you can automate it."
  },
  {
    "start": 384.12,
    "end": 386.06,
    "text": "You should automate it. It's just mandatory."
  },
  {
    "start": 386.94,
    "end": 390.02,
    "text": "But when it comes down to the finer things about acceptance testing"
  },
  {
    "start": 390.14,
    "end": 393.24,
    "text": "and what does the system do for me and how does it feel,"
  },
  {
    "start": 393.62,
    "end": 395.18,
    "text": "that's something very hard to automate."
  },
  {
    "start": 395.4,
    "end": 395.62,
    "text": "Yeah,"
  },
  {
    "start": 395.78,
    "end": 396.38,
    "text": "yeah, that's true."
  },
  {
    "start": 397.699,
    "end": 400.079,
    "text": "What do you think is a good strategy"
  },
  {
    "start": 400.08,
    "end": 405.76,
    "text": "to get more balance into the test automation stuff we have."
  },
  {
    "start": 407.74,
    "end": 409.06,
    "text": "Getting more real testers in."
  },
  {
    "start": 410.66,
    "end": 412.8,
    "text": "And for me, these are two completely different skill sets."
  },
  {
    "start": 414.24,
    "end": 417.86,
    "text": "Somebody who does test automation, whether you call him a test automator or test automation"
  },
  {
    "start": 417.94,
    "end": 418.8,
    "text": "engineer, I don't mind, I mean,"
  },
  {
    "start": 419.24,
    "end": 421.62,
    "text": "or DevOps ninja or whatever the fancy names are,"
  },
  {
    "start": 422.72,
    "end": 422.88,
    "text": "because"
  },
  {
    "start": 422.88,
    "end": 424.0,
    "text": "we have fancy names nowadays,"
  },
  {
    "start": 424.22,
    "end": 424.76,
    "text": "let's be clear."
  },
  {
    "start": 426.74,
    "end": 431.7,
    "text": "But that person is focusing on translating requirements into automated test cases."
  },
  {
    "start": 433.4,
    "end": 437.62,
    "text": "A tester without the automation is looking at a product critically,"
  },
  {
    "start": 437.96,
    "end": 438.82,
    "text": "is exploring the"
  },
  {
    "start": 438.84,
    "end": 439.16,
    "text": "product,"
  },
  {
    "start": 439.32,
    "end": 440.66,
    "text": "is learning from his experiences,"
  },
  {
    "start": 441.25,
    "end": 443.0,
    "text": "and is trying to poke holes in the product."
  },
  {
    "start": 443.16,
    "end": 444.0,
    "text": "Where are the issues?"
  },
  {
    "start": 444.82,
    "end": 445.88,
    "text": "Based on test experience,"
  },
  {
    "start": 446.14,
    "end": 448.48,
    "text": "based on common sense,"
  },
  {
    "start": 449.48,
    "end": 451.42,
    "text": "but being critical and asking questions."
  },
  {
    "start": 451.54,
    "end": 452.8,
    "text": "That is something that a tool cannot do."
  },
  {
    "start": 453.98,
    "end": 456.3,
    "text": "So we are looking at two completely different profiles."
  },
  {
    "start": 457.16,
    "end": 460.54,
    "text": "And of course, you can teach testers how to automate,"
  },
  {
    "start": 460.72,
    "end": 462.02,
    "text": "but then you don't benefit from"
  },
  {
    "start": 462.08,
    "end": 462.72,
    "text": "their experience."
  },
  {
    "start": 463.8,
    "end": 467.96,
    "text": "And you can ask people who do test automation to test, but that's not really their expertise."
  },
  {
    "start": 469.02,
    "end": 470.64,
    "text": "So for me, in a well-founded team,"
  },
  {
    "start": 471.24,
    "end": 473.5,
    "text": "both roles need to respect each other, needs to clearly"
  },
  {
    "start": 473.6,
    "end": 474.18,
    "text": "communicate,"
  },
  {
    "start": 474.7,
    "end": 477.34,
    "text": "highlight where the risk areas are, where the defects are,"
  },
  {
    "start": 477.88,
    "end": 478.54,
    "text": "what the priorities"
  },
  {
    "start": 478.66,
    "end": 478.84,
    "text": "are,"
  },
  {
    "start": 479.28,
    "end": 480.34,
    "text": "but these are two separate roles."
  },
  {
    "start": 481.02,
    "end": 481.42,
    "text": "Okay."
  },
  {
    "start": 481.58,
    "end": 481.68,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 482.02,
    "end": 482.74,
    "text": "Yeah, I understand."
  },
  {
    "start": 483.82,
    "end": 487.28,
    "text": "I think it's obvious to talk about priorities and risk,"
  },
  {
    "start": 487.4,
    "end": 489.78,
    "text": "but when I think of projects where I came in,"
  },
  {
    "start": 490.28,
    "end": 494.7,
    "text": "the automation guys just automate what they get on the table,"
  },
  {
    "start": 495.18,
    "end": 496.98,
    "text": "and nobody's really thinking about that,"
  },
  {
    "start": 497.02,
    "end": 500.32,
    "text": "and they have a huge amount of test cases to maintain,"
  },
  {
    "start": 500.34,
    "end": 501.2,
    "text": "the test automation,"
  },
  {
    "start": 502.34,
    "end": 504.42,
    "text": "and it's not feasible for them anymore here."
  },
  {
    "start": 505.36,
    "end": 507.3,
    "text": ">> That's what you also typically see in Agile teams."
  },
  {
    "start": 508.06,
    "end": 508.16,
    "text": "Well,"
  },
  {
    "start": 508.44,
    "end": 508.84,
    "text": "every team,"
  },
  {
    "start": 509.0,
    "end": 510.1,
    "text": "like you said in your talk yourself,"
  },
  {
    "start": 510.24,
    "end": 513.18,
    "text": "everybody calls themselves Agile or has called themselves Agile."
  },
  {
    "start": 513.38,
    "end": 515.099,
    "text": "Well, they're not really, really agile."
  },
  {
    "start": 515.76,
    "end": 518.44,
    "text": "So you see a lot of test automation done after the iteration."
  },
  {
    "start": 519.18,
    "end": 519.3,
    "text": "Why?"
  },
  {
    "start": 519.52,
    "end": 524.2,
    "text": "Because the product owner wants to get the features, the product backlog items,"
  },
  {
    "start": 524.7,
    "end": 524.92,
    "text": "as soon"
  },
  {
    "start": 524.92,
    "end": 525.9,
    "text": "as possible to production."
  },
  {
    "start": 526.82,
    "end": 529.54,
    "text": "And test automation for that iteration serves no value."
  },
  {
    "start": 530.86,
    "end": 534.04,
    "text": "So if you then say we're going to ship less features and invest in test automations,"
  },
  {
    "start": 534.56,
    "end": 534.72,
    "text": "most"
  },
  {
    "start": 534.8,
    "end": 535.76,
    "text": "product owners don't like it."
  },
  {
    "start": 536.21,
    "end": 538.68,
    "text": "So typically, if then a separate test automation team afterwards,"
  },
  {
    "start": 539.32,
    "end": 539.46,
    "text": "again,"
  },
  {
    "start": 539.62,
    "end": 541.259,
    "text": "for those half-baked"
  },
  {
    "start": 541.26,
    "end": 543.9,
    "text": "agile teams, the fragile, wagile, water-scrum teams."
  },
  {
    "start": 545.56,
    "end": 546.9,
    "text": "They do test automation afterwards."
  },
  {
    "start": 547.72,
    "end": 548.34,
    "text": "And what are they doing?"
  },
  {
    "start": 548.54,
    "end": 549.86,
    "text": "Because then the priority is gone,"
  },
  {
    "start": 550.3,
    "end": 551.5,
    "text": "circumstances have changed."
  },
  {
    "start": 551.6,
    "end": 554.34,
    "text": "So they're just taking the things which are easy to automate,"
  },
  {
    "start": 554.92,
    "end": 556.0,
    "text": "where the locators are clear,"
  },
  {
    "start": 556.12,
    "end": 557.02,
    "text": "where the code is stable."
  },
  {
    "start": 557.66,
    "end": 561.08,
    "text": "And that is what they automate without taking into account the risks or the opportunities"
  },
  {
    "start": 561.4,
    "end": 562.6,
    "text": "or the repetition,"
  },
  {
    "start": 563.0,
    "end": 564.22,
    "text": "because nobody guides them."
  },
  {
    "start": 565.84,
    "end": 566.42,
    "text": "When I see it,"
  },
  {
    "start": 566.66,
    "end": 569.46,
    "text": "sometimes I come to customers and they say,"
  },
  {
    "start": 569.7,
    "end": 571.24,
    "text": "okay, the automation stuff has"
  },
  {
    "start": 571.24,
    "end": 573.62,
    "text": "done by the developers because we have no automation."
  },
  {
    "start": 573.72,
    "end": 574.92,
    "text": "What's your opinion on that?"
  },
  {
    "start": 575.0,
    "end": 578.66,
    "text": "Is this a feasible way or is it better to have really people"
  },
  {
    "start": 578.88,
    "end": 581.44,
    "text": "who are taking care of the test automation purely?"
  },
  {
    "start": 582.56,
    "end": 583.98,
    "text": "From a conceptual point of view,"
  },
  {
    "start": 584.06,
    "end": 585.86,
    "text": "I'm all in favor of letting developers do that."
  },
  {
    "start": 586.16,
    "end": 588.18,
    "text": "But then we're talking about test-driven development,"
  },
  {
    "start": 588.72,
    "end": 589.6,
    "text": "behavior-driven development,"
  },
  {
    "start": 589.7,
    "end": 590.66,
    "text": "acceptance-driven development,"
  },
  {
    "start": 591.12,
    "end": 591.78,
    "text": "I'm all in favor."
  },
  {
    "start": 591.83,
    "end": 592.06,
    "text": "I mean,"
  },
  {
    "start": 592.44,
    "end": 593.74,
    "text": "I'm gonna use Gherkin for that"
  },
  {
    "start": 593.82,
    "end": 595.52,
    "text": "or Cucumber or Robot Framework,"
  },
  {
    "start": 596.14,
    "end": 597.38,
    "text": "Reqnroll, I don't mind."
  },
  {
    "start": 598.22,
    "end": 600.16,
    "text": "But we need to make the entire team"
  },
  {
    "start": 600.16,
    "end": 601.26,
    "text": "responsible for quality."
  },
  {
    "start": 602.24,
    "end": 602.7,
    "text": "Of course,"
  },
  {
    "start": 602.96,
    "end": 605.0,
    "text": "quality is typically a testing mindset,"
  },
  {
    "start": 606.04,
    "end": 606.62,
    "text": "but we need"
  },
  {
    "start": 606.62,
    "end": 611.02,
    "text": "to move away from quality assurance, a term which I hate forever because we cannot assure"
  },
  {
    "start": 611.12,
    "end": 611.46,
    "text": "quality,"
  },
  {
    "start": 611.96,
    "end": 613.52,
    "text": "but we need to go to quality engineering,"
  },
  {
    "start": 613.7,
    "end": 615.7,
    "text": "making people shared responsible for quality."
  },
  {
    "start": 616.7,
    "end": 622.74,
    "text": "And if anybody can assist testers in writing automated test cases or translating test cases"
  },
  {
    "start": 623.06,
    "end": 624.02,
    "text": "to automated cases,"
  },
  {
    "start": 624.36,
    "end": 625.34,
    "text": "it's development profiles."
  },
  {
    "start": 626.72,
    "end": 628.64,
    "text": "So if you are composing a team that can be"
  },
  {
    "start": 628.44,
    "end": 630.58,
    "text": "that if you have a junior developer on your team,"
  },
  {
    "start": 630.8,
    "end": 633.74,
    "text": "you assign him or her the task to translate test cases,"
  },
  {
    "start": 634.12,
    "end": 636.66,
    "text": "manual or charts or checklist or whatever,"
  },
  {
    "start": 637.28,
    "end": 638.42,
    "text": "to automate the test case."
  },
  {
    "start": 638.56,
    "end": 639.42,
    "text": "That can be a good idea."
  },
  {
    "start": 639.98,
    "end": 641.68,
    "text": "Here she gets familiar with the code,"
  },
  {
    "start": 642.22,
    "end": 646.2,
    "text": "with all the nitty-gritty database connections and configuration files."
  },
  {
    "start": 646.88,
    "end": 647.78,
    "text": "That can assist of course,"
  },
  {
    "start": 647.96,
    "end": 651.16,
    "text": "because a developer doesn't like to solve defects."
  },
  {
    "start": 651.4,
    "end": 654.02,
    "text": "The developers writes to bank codes."
  },
  {
    "start": 654.02,
    "end": 655.24,
    "text": "They want to create things."
  },
  {
    "start": 655.92,
    "end": 657.74,
    "text": "And a tester wants to break stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 658.999,
    "end": 663.72,
    "text": "So forcing a tester to write automated test cases feels unnatural."
  },
  {
    "start": 664.72,
    "end": 668.76,
    "text": "I like what you said because I think this is one of the,"
  },
  {
    "start": 670.02,
    "end": 671.48,
    "text": "when going really into agile,"
  },
  {
    "start": 671.6,
    "end": 674.78,
    "text": "is that the team takes responsibility of quality,"
  },
  {
    "start": 675.0,
    "end": 676.9,
    "text": "not just it's written in the test plan, but"
  },
  {
    "start": 677.22,
    "end": 679.78,
    "text": "the people are really doing that by quality engineering,"
  },
  {
    "start": 679.96,
    "end": 681.999,
    "text": "by joining their forces together"
  },
  {
    "start": 682.0,
    "end": 686.82,
    "text": "to build a quality mindset and to build a good software at the end."
  },
  {
    "start": 687.28,
    "end": 692.56,
    "text": "And not just we put in a tester into the team and he's dealing with the test stuff"
  },
  {
    "start": 692.68,
    "end": 693.78,
    "text": "and all the others think, \"Ah,"
  },
  {
    "start": 694.26,
    "end": 697.5,
    "text": "we have a tester here for the quality responsibility.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 697.5,
    "end": 701.1,
    "text": "So I like the idea to really go into the quality engineering"
  },
  {
    "start": 701.34,
    "end": 706.46,
    "text": "and to think about test automation on all these different levels in the team."
  },
  {
    "start": 707.56,
    "end": 709.5,
    "text": "Well, it starts already with the company approach."
  },
  {
    "start": 710.24,
    "end": 714.26,
    "text": "When I want to work in a company, I want to know what is your quality policy?"
  },
  {
    "start": 714.98,
    "end": 716.08,
    "text": "What are your customers,"
  },
  {
    "start": 716.32,
    "end": 717.08,
    "text": "if you develop your..."
  },
  {
    "start": 717.32,
    "end": 720.98,
    "text": "Not for a consulting company, if you are really a software production company"
  },
  {
    "start": 721.44,
    "end": 722.44,
    "text": "that releases products,"
  },
  {
    "start": 722.94,
    "end": 724.18,
    "text": "what are your customers expecting?"
  },
  {
    "start": 724.54,
    "end": 725.78,
    "text": "What kind of profile do they have?"
  },
  {
    "start": 726.38,
    "end": 729.56,
    "text": "Are these people who expect 99.99% uptime?"
  },
  {
    "start": 730.12,
    "end": 732.04,
    "text": "Are they rather focusing on security?"
  },
  {
    "start": 732.94,
    "end": 733.52,
    "text": "Are they people,"
  },
  {
    "start": 733.68,
    "end": 734.74,
    "text": "if you make one mistake,"
  },
  {
    "start": 734.9,
    "end": 736.02,
    "text": "they're away, they never come back?"
  },
  {
    "start": 736.1,
    "end": 737.26,
    "text": "Like in the gaming industry,"
  },
  {
    "start": 737.48,
    "end": 739.1,
    "text": "if you release a very faulty game,"
  },
  {
    "start": 739.36,
    "end": 740.6,
    "text": "you lose your customers."
  },
  {
    "start": 741.18,
    "end": 743.36,
    "text": "Are you in banks? That functionality is more important. So"
  },
  {
    "start": 743.82,
    "end": 745.28,
    "text": "what are these people focused on?"
  },
  {
    "start": 745.96,
    "end": 748.46,
    "text": "And if you do not know that diversification in your customer"
  },
  {
    "start": 748.78,
    "end": 750.42,
    "text": "portfolio and your product portfolio,"
  },
  {
    "start": 750.88,
    "end": 753.82,
    "text": "you have no idea about your value streams and you have no idea"
  },
  {
    "start": 753.9,
    "end": 754.38,
    "text": "how to test."
  },
  {
    "start": 755.02,
    "end": 758.4,
    "text": "And then the agile team kicks in because that's for me the role of the product"
  },
  {
    "start": 758.48,
    "end": 769.34,
    "text": "owner and then you have the scrum master and the agile coaches facilitator who can assist you in"
  },
  {
    "start": 769.34,
    "end": 771.46,
    "text": "test automation area now,"
  },
  {
    "start": 771.68,
    "end": 774.24,
    "text": "or better this way,"
  },
  {
    "start": 774.66,
    "end": 777.34,
    "text": "how is it changing now with all the AI stuff?"
  },
  {
    "start": 777.66,
    "end": 779.6,
    "text": "Now we have to come back a little bit to the AI."
  },
  {
    "start": 779.6,
    "end": 781.16,
    "text": "Yeah, of course, of course. You told me, no AI."
  },
  {
    "start": 782.18,
    "end": 784.22,
    "text": "I think everything becomes AI driven,"
  },
  {
    "start": 784.82,
    "end": 786.1,
    "text": "or at least AI assisted,"
  },
  {
    "start": 787.21,
    "end": 788.58,
    "text": "which scares me a little bit to be honest,"
  },
  {
    "start": 788.92,
    "end": 790.14,
    "text": "because I see a lot of"
  },
  {
    "start": 791.02,
    "end": 792.42,
    "text": "flaky tests created by AI."
  },
  {
    "start": 792.6,
    "end": 794.3,
    "text": "And I don't have a problem with flaky tests. I mean,"
  },
  {
    "start": 794.46,
    "end": 794.94,
    "text": "flaky tests"
  },
  {
    "start": 794.94,
    "end": 797.52,
    "text": "are there, whether these are human generated or AI generated,"
  },
  {
    "start": 798.46,
    "end": 800.22,
    "text": "I do have a problem with"
  },
  {
    "start": 800.36,
    "end": 802.1,
    "text": "the quality that AI produces."
  },
  {
    "start": 802.71,
    "end": 804.96,
    "text": "It seems plausible, it seems realistic,"
  },
  {
    "start": 805.24,
    "end": 808.52,
    "text": "it seems cool, it seems what you expect until"
  },
  {
    "start": 808.52,
    "end": 809.56,
    "text": "you start to dive deeper."
  },
  {
    "start": 810.26,
    "end": 812.96,
    "text": "AI is 90% correct, 91% correct,"
  },
  {
    "start": 813.88,
    "end": 816.48,
    "text": "but if I'm a tester and I write test cases,"
  },
  {
    "start": 816.74,
    "end": 817.24,
    "text": "I'm not going"
  },
  {
    "start": 817.24,
    "end": 821.18,
    "text": "to invent incorrect test case just to have 100% coverage."
  },
  {
    "start": 821.7,
    "end": 823.04,
    "text": "That is exactly what AI does."
  },
  {
    "start": 823.22,
    "end": 826.7,
    "text": "It provides, because you ask 100%, it provides you 100%."
  },
  {
    "start": 827.44,
    "end": 830.54,
    "text": "We did a lot of research for using GenAI"
  },
  {
    "start": 830.76,
    "end": 832.06,
    "text": "to translate test cases from,"
  },
  {
    "start": 832.4,
    "end": 832.8,
    "text": "for example,"
  },
  {
    "start": 833.1,
    "end": 833.88,
    "text": "Selenium to Playwright."
  },
  {
    "start": 835.38,
    "end": 837.2,
    "text": "And we asked the AI, OK, can you please do that?"
  },
  {
    "start": 837.52,
    "end": 839.54,
    "text": "We used Claude, we used Cursor, we used …,"
  },
  {
    "start": 840.12,
    "end": 841.6,
    "text": "we played around with different stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 842.42,
    "end": 843.08,
    "text": "And then we get a result."
  },
  {
    "start": 843.3,
    "end": 844.34,
    "text": "And then you ask, are you sure?"
  },
  {
    "start": 844.52,
    "end": 845.16,
    "text": "Yeah, you're right."
  },
  {
    "start": 845.7,
    "end": 846.76,
    "text": "I made a mistake."
  },
  {
    "start": 847.28,
    "end": 847.7,
    "text": "OK, great."
  },
  {
    "start": 848.14,
    "end": 849.1,
    "text": "Then we ask again, are you sure?"
  },
  {
    "start": 849.58,
    "end": 850.22,
    "text": "Yes, now I'm sure."
  },
  {
    "start": 851.38,
    "end": 852.32,
    "text": "Then we ask, are you sure?"
  },
  {
    "start": 852.5,
    "end": 853.76,
    "text": "Because Copilot says differently."
  },
  {
    "start": 854.0,
    "end": 854.72,
    "text": "Oh, you're right."
  },
  {
    "start": 855.56,
    "end": 856.0,
    "text": "(laughing)"
  },
  {
    "start": 856.44,
    "end": 856.66,
    "text": "I mean,"
  },
  {
    "start": 857.36,
    "end": 857.82,
    "text": "LLMs,"
  },
  {
    "start": 858.24,
    "end": 859.46,
    "text": "like Claudia said in her talk"
  },
  {
    "start": 859.5,
    "end": 860.32,
    "text": "a couple of minutes ago,"
  },
  {
    "start": 860.54,
    "end": 862.04,
    "text": "LLMs are language models."
  },
  {
    "start": 862.46,
    "end": 863.78,
    "text": "They don't have a rationale,"
  },
  {
    "start": 863.87,
    "end": 865.7,
    "text": "they don't have reasoning order,"
  },
  {
    "start": 866.13,
    "end": 867.68,
    "text": "they don't have opinions."
  },
  {
    "start": 868.48,
    "end": 870.24,
    "text": "They just take token-based,"
  },
  {
    "start": 870.48,
    "end": 871.2,
    "text": "based on variables,"
  },
  {
    "start": 871.5,
    "end": 873.28,
    "text": "what is the most probable outcome there?"
  },
  {
    "start": 873.88,
    "end": 875.2,
    "text": "It's not a coding computer,"
  },
  {
    "start": 875.36,
    "end": 876.76,
    "text": "it's not an automation computer,"
  },
  {
    "start": 877.34,
    "end": 879.28,
    "text": "it's a language model, and we should not forget that."
  },
  {
    "start": 880.4,
    "end": 886.04,
    "text": "So building all my trust in what I see now at different organizations of having an agent"
  },
  {
    "start": 886.05,
    "end": 890.84,
    "text": "to translate a customer question to a user story and then an agent translating the user"
  },
  {
    "start": 890.88,
    "end": 895.14,
    "text": "story into acceptance criteria and then an agent building the acceptance criteria to"
  },
  {
    "start": 895.18,
    "end": 901.1,
    "text": "code and then writing unit tests with an agent and then system tests with an agent and then"
  },
  {
    "start": 901.2,
    "end": 903.94,
    "text": "putting everything there and generating the release notes with an agent."
  },
  {
    "start": 904.6,
    "end": 905.58,
    "text": "That goes very fast."
  },
  {
    "start": 906.32,
    "end": 907.96,
    "text": "But that is what I call DevOps diarrhea."
  },
  {
    "start": 908.6,
    "end": 910.74,
    "text": "You get things very fast but the quality is very poor."
  },
  {
    "start": 912.18,
    "end": 913.24,
    "text": "Again if that's your business,"
  },
  {
    "start": 913.64,
    "end": 916.8,
    "text": "if your customers are okay that in three minutes time if they"
  },
  {
    "start": 916.84,
    "end": 918.1,
    "text": "report a defect you can correct it,"
  },
  {
    "start": 918.26,
    "end": 918.94,
    "text": "that's fine by me."
  },
  {
    "start": 919.54,
    "end": 920.4,
    "text": "That's not my nature."
  },
  {
    "start": 920.6,
    "end": 925.7,
    "text": "I like to have a more human-steered approach where we can try to assure quality ourselves,"
  },
  {
    "start": 925.94,
    "end": 927.4,
    "text": "that at least we keep the human in the loop."
  },
  {
    "start": 928.62,
    "end": 932.14,
    "text": "The problem is there that people don't like to check things."
  },
  {
    "start": 934.1,
    "end": 936.28,
    "text": "If you have to write code, if you have to write test cases,"
  },
  {
    "start": 937.22,
    "end": 937.9,
    "text": "that's something you like"
  },
  {
    "start": 937.84,
    "end": 939.14,
    "text": "to do, I mean that is what you do."
  },
  {
    "start": 939.78,
    "end": 941.76,
    "text": "But if you have to look at the code that somebody"
  },
  {
    "start": 941.88,
    "end": 943.64,
    "text": "else wrote or the test cases,"
  },
  {
    "start": 944.4,
    "end": 947.5,
    "text": "after one hour your complete cognitive span is lost."
  },
  {
    "start": 948.38,
    "end": 948.94,
    "text": "So it's so boring."
  },
  {
    "start": 949.28,
    "end": 949.42,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 950.12,
    "end": 954.12,
    "text": "And we cannot expect junior people to review our code or our test case because that"
  },
  {
    "start": 954.16,
    "end": 955.24,
    "text": "is for the senior people."
  },
  {
    "start": 956.22,
    "end": 959.88,
    "text": "So we are abandoning a whole generation of junior testers and developers"
  },
  {
    "start": 959.9,
    "end": 960.36,
    "text": "and analysts,"
  },
  {
    "start": 961.02,
    "end": 962.32,
    "text": "which we're replacing by AI."
  },
  {
    "start": 963.16,
    "end": 965.199,
    "text": "The older generation, the experienced people"
  },
  {
    "start": 965.2,
    "end": 966.32,
    "text": "we'll have to check the work."
  },
  {
    "start": 966.96,
    "end": 968.88,
    "text": "So where are the new experienced people coming from?"
  },
  {
    "start": 969.5,
    "end": 970.96,
    "text": "That's the gap that we are currently creating."
  },
  {
    "start": 972.42,
    "end": 974.0,
    "text": "Another thing what comes to my mind now"
  },
  {
    "start": 974.1,
    "end": 975.14,
    "text": "when you say that this,"
  },
  {
    "start": 975.74,
    "end": 978.18,
    "text": "when we use this AI stuff in test automation,"
  },
  {
    "start": 978.38,
    "end": 979.64,
    "text": "especially we have this,"
  },
  {
    "start": 980.74,
    "end": 983.54,
    "text": "I have this image from shit in and shit out"
  },
  {
    "start": 983.78,
    "end": 987.6,
    "text": "because test automation nowadays without AI"
  },
  {
    "start": 987.68,
    "end": 990.26,
    "text": "is not really working 100% good"
  },
  {
    "start": 990.36,
    "end": 992.1,
    "text": "because we have not good processes,"
  },
  {
    "start": 992.34,
    "end": 993.16,
    "text": "not good strategy,"
  },
  {
    "start": 993.48,
    "end": 994.78,
    "text": "not the context really clear."
  },
  {
    "start": 995.16,
    "end": 999.2,
    "text": "And now we put in this not really good test automation into AI,"
  },
  {
    "start": 999.59,
    "end": 1000.96,
    "text": "we ship shit faster."
  },
  {
    "start": 1001.26,
    "end": 1002.2,
    "text": "Yeah, absolutely."
  },
  {
    "start": 1002.38,
    "end": 1005.76,
    "text": "So I think to reflect that,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1006.15,
    "end": 1009.96,
    "text": "to sit down and get your concept,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1010.36,
    "end": 1012.54,
    "text": "your strategy and your processes clean,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1013.46,
    "end": 1018.88,
    "text": "then AI may help you. But for test automation, you need a good foundation."
  },
  {
    "start": 1019.18,
    "end": 1019.26,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1020.14,
    "end": 1024.459,
    "text": "Your code base needs to be stable. You need to have a process that embraces test automation as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 1024.459,
    "end": 1028.6,
    "text": "So it's not because you can create test cases faster that you should."
  },
  {
    "start": 1029.78,
    "end": 1030.38,
    "text": "There are,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1031.22,
    "end": 1032.199,
    "text": "you live in Germany, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1032.459,
    "end": 1034.8,
    "text": "At certain places you can drive as fast as you want."
  },
  {
    "start": 1035.6,
    "end": 1039.14,
    "text": "But if the circumstances don't allow, it doesn't mean that you have to drive as fast as you"
  },
  {
    "start": 1039.14,
    "end": 1039.3,
    "text": "can."
  },
  {
    "start": 1039.819,
    "end": 1040.72,
    "text": "And it's the same with testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1041.04,
    "end": 1044.12,
    "text": "Sometimes it's good to take one step back and think about what are we doing here?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1044.54,
    "end": 1045.699,
    "text": "We have all these test levels."
  },
  {
    "start": 1046.199,
    "end": 1047.54,
    "text": "We are using AI for everything."
  },
  {
    "start": 1048.4,
    "end": 1049.32,
    "text": "Aren't we missing something?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1049.46,
    "end": 1050.28,
    "text": "What is the overlap?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1050.98,
    "end": 1053.64,
    "text": "So can we blend all these test cases,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1054.02,
    "end": 1056.5,
    "text": "use things like SonarQube to have a heat map about"
  },
  {
    "start": 1056.52,
    "end": 1058.12,
    "text": "the functions we tested we didn't test,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1058.58,
    "end": 1060.72,
    "text": "create additional test cases, maybe there's overlap,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1061.14,
    "end": 1062.86,
    "text": "what can we shift to the left, what can..."
  },
  {
    "start": 1062.88,
    "end": 1067.08,
    "text": "So you really need a test automation policy and a strategy to see how you can do that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1067.5,
    "end": 1068.7,
    "text": "And once you have the strategy,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1069.1,
    "end": 1072.68,
    "text": "then think about how can we now increase the efficiency"
  },
  {
    "start": 1073.24,
    "end": 1073.98,
    "text": "by using AI."
  },
  {
    "start": 1075.26,
    "end": 1079.099,
    "text": "But we see the opposite nowadays, we see all these boardrooms in panic because we have"
  },
  {
    "start": 1079.1,
    "end": 1081.8,
    "text": "to use AI and Microsoft is pushing licenses."
  },
  {
    "start": 1082.56,
    "end": 1083.68,
    "text": "As I told you in my talk, for me,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1084.12,
    "end": 1085.36,
    "text": "it's making people addicted."
  },
  {
    "start": 1085.94,
    "end": 1088.02,
    "text": "They're giving away their licenses now for free"
  },
  {
    "start": 1088.1,
    "end": 1088.88,
    "text": "or almost for free."
  },
  {
    "start": 1089.62,
    "end": 1092.02,
    "text": "And then at one point, you have to pay for your tokens"
  },
  {
    "start": 1092.1,
    "end": 1093.66,
    "text": "and everything and then the bill will come."
  },
  {
    "start": 1094.86,
    "end": 1096.02,
    "text": "But first they make us addicted."
  },
  {
    "start": 1096.66,
    "end": 1097.82,
    "text": "And it's not only Microsoft by the way,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1097.86,
    "end": 1098.26,
    "text": "it's Anthropic,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1098.44,
    "end": 1098.88,
    "text": "it's everybody."
  },
  {
    "start": 1099.98,
    "end": 1101.86,
    "text": "So you need to take a step back"
  },
  {
    "start": 1101.9,
    "end": 1103.28,
    "text": "and to look at it from a holistic side,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1103.38,
    "end": 1104.26,
    "text": "what are we trying to do?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1104.7,
    "end": 1106.02,
    "text": "We're trying to create software."
  },
  {
    "start": 1106.5,
    "end": 1108.259,
    "text": "And then how important is quality"
  },
  {
    "start": 1108.26,
    "end": 1109.32,
    "text": "and how can we achieve that?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1110.0,
    "end": 1111.72,
    "text": "Can we use that with all techniques,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1112.18,
    "end": 1114.04,
    "text": "like inspections and code reviews"
  },
  {
    "start": 1115.46,
    "end": 1117.38,
    "text": "and pairwise programming and XP?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1117.96,
    "end": 1119.12,
    "text": "Should we go for test automation?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1119.32,
    "end": 1120.76,
    "text": "Can we do it AI assisted or not?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1121.18,
    "end": 1123.34,
    "text": "What kind of tools we use, but that requires a step back."
  },
  {
    "start": 1123.64,
    "end": 1123.78,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1124.96,
    "end": 1128.02,
    "text": "When one is hearing this podcast or watching it YouTube,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1129.72,
    "end": 1130.74,
    "text": "and hears that, it's like,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1130.98,
    "end": 1131.74,
    "text": "Michael is so right."
  },
  {
    "start": 1132.34,
    "end": 1135.46,
    "text": "But I'm a small little tester and test automation"
  },
  {
    "start": 1135.74,
    "end": 1137.86,
    "text": "or test automation engineer in my company."
  },
  {
    "start": 1137.96,
    "end": 1139.46,
    "text": "and nobody hears me."
  },
  {
    "start": 1139.48,
    "end": 1141.78,
    "text": "What would you suggest to these people"
  },
  {
    "start": 1141.92,
    "end": 1145.04,
    "text": "and say to get this step back and talk"
  },
  {
    "start": 1145.16,
    "end": 1148.52,
    "text": "and can convince the team to make this step"
  },
  {
    "start": 1148.68,
    "end": 1150.26,
    "text": "to rethink their test strategy?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1151.26,
    "end": 1152.74,
    "text": "Well, it depends on what you want to achieve."
  },
  {
    "start": 1153.34,
    "end": 1155.12,
    "text": "If you work in organization as a tester"
  },
  {
    "start": 1155.32,
    "end": 1158.98,
    "text": "or a DevOps engineer or quality, whatever the name is,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1159.1,
    "end": 1159.36,
    "text": "I mean,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1160.02,
    "end": 1161.34,
    "text": "there is the community practice"
  },
  {
    "start": 1161.56,
    "end": 1163.88,
    "text": "and there is trying to prove yourself to the management."
  },
  {
    "start": 1165.22,
    "end": 1166.94,
    "text": "If it's about community sharing experiences,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1167.12,
    "end": 1167.62,
    "text": "\"Hey, you know what,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1167.82,
    "end": 1168.92,
    "text": "we all do it like this."
  },
  {
    "start": 1169.46,
    "end": 1170.4,
    "text": "I tried something different."
  },
  {
    "start": 1170.64,
    "end": 1171.98,
    "text": "It worked this much faster,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1172.38,
    "end": 1173.18,
    "text": "this much more efficient."
  },
  {
    "start": 1173.72,
    "end": 1174.98,
    "text": "This is something you might like.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 1174.98,
    "end": 1176.68,
    "text": "And you make people ambassadors."
  },
  {
    "start": 1177.5,
    "end": 1180.04,
    "text": "If you share your failures and your successes,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1180.52,
    "end": 1181.18,
    "text": "people will learn."
  },
  {
    "start": 1182.2,
    "end": 1184.16,
    "text": "But most people who work in the IT industry"
  },
  {
    "start": 1184.34,
    "end": 1185.3,
    "text": "are rather introvert."
  },
  {
    "start": 1185.68,
    "end": 1188.14,
    "text": "They don't like to brag, they don't like to share experiences."
  },
  {
    "start": 1190.36,
    "end": 1191.68,
    "text": "That's not their second nature."
  },
  {
    "start": 1191.76,
    "end": 1193.42,
    "text": "So it's about setting a scene,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1193.8,
    "end": 1196.52,
    "text": "whether it's a fireplace chat or some kind of,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1196.76,
    "end": 1197.18,
    "text": "I don't know,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1197.66,
    "end": 1199.22,
    "text": "not official way of sharing that,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1199.96,
    "end": 1200.68,
    "text": "but that can help."
  },
  {
    "start": 1201.4,
    "end": 1204.06,
    "text": "When it's about convincing the manager to take a step back,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1204.16,
    "end": 1205.12,
    "text": "that requires something different."
  },
  {
    "start": 1206.3,
    "end": 1209.84,
    "text": "That is about explaining them what testing and quality is,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1210.08,
    "end": 1213.0,
    "text": "because typically managers do have no idea what testing is."
  },
  {
    "start": 1213.49,
    "end": 1216.56,
    "text": "They just want to ship things based on the devil's triangle,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1216.78,
    "end": 1217.34,
    "text": "which is scope,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1217.86,
    "end": 1219.2,
    "text": "which is price and which is timing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1219.98,
    "end": 1221.04,
    "text": "That is what they're concerned about."
  },
  {
    "start": 1221.12,
    "end": 1223.28,
    "text": "Quality is most of the time not on their radar."
  },
  {
    "start": 1224.04,
    "end": 1225.48,
    "text": "So you need to explain what it is."
  },
  {
    "start": 1226.46,
    "end": 1229.24,
    "text": "It doesn't help that an AI or any kind of other tool"
  },
  {
    "start": 1229.74,
    "end": 1232.74,
    "text": "is creating reports about code coverage or whatever."
  },
  {
    "start": 1233.4,
    "end": 1235.32,
    "text": "Management doesn't understand code coverage"
  },
  {
    "start": 1235.4,
    "end": 1236.88,
    "text": "or requirements coverage."
  },
  {
    "start": 1237.15,
    "end": 1238.32,
    "text": "You need to highlight the risks."
  },
  {
    "start": 1238.46,
    "end": 1239.84,
    "text": "So if you take an initiative,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1240.36,
    "end": 1242.32,
    "text": "think again about the value towards customers."
  },
  {
    "start": 1243.02,
    "end": 1245.76,
    "text": "If we can do this, we can ship potential features"
  },
  {
    "start": 1246.2,
    "end": 1247.12,
    "text": "faster to customer"
  },
  {
    "start": 1247.92,
    "end": 1250.22,
    "text": "with a lower percentage of production incidents."
  },
  {
    "start": 1250.6,
    "end": 1252.279,
    "text": "That is something they understand"
  },
  {
    "start": 1252.28,
    "end": 1253.66,
    "text": "because they have helped us there,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1253.96,
    "end": 1255.68,
    "text": "that is mitigating all these incidents."
  },
  {
    "start": 1256.72,
    "end": 1260.14,
    "text": "But if you start talking about defects and test cases,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1260.96,
    "end": 1262.42,
    "text": "you're lost in a sea of noise."
  },
  {
    "start": 1262.8,
    "end": 1263.92,
    "text": "-Yeah, that's so true."
  },
  {
    "start": 1265.1,
    "end": 1269.44,
    "text": "That's a good point. I think that people think about"
  },
  {
    "start": 1270.06,
    "end": 1274.5,
    "text": "when we want to change something, what are the needs and the beliefs"
  },
  {
    "start": 1274.72,
    "end": 1278.8,
    "text": "and the empathy for our stakeholders to have."
  },
  {
    "start": 1279.76,
    "end": 1283.84,
    "text": "And then we can try to convince them on their level what they understand."
  },
  {
    "start": 1283.98,
    "end": 1285.76,
    "text": "And as you said,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1285.96,
    "end": 1288.26,
    "text": "managers don't understand coverage and so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 1288.42,
    "end": 1293.0,
    "text": "So we have to come with business risk and other things to make them understand."
  },
  {
    "start": 1294.3,
    "end": 1298.38,
    "text": "Michael, thank you very, very much for this insights and for this perspective."
  },
  {
    "start": 1298.58,
    "end": 1301.98,
    "text": "I think that's a really clear perspective you have."
  },
  {
    "start": 1302.08,
    "end": 1303.74,
    "text": "That's what I appreciate."
  },
  {
    "start": 1303.98,
    "end": 1304.84,
    "text": "It's not very vague."
  },
  {
    "start": 1304.84,
    "end": 1308.48,
    "text": "You say what is not going good and what's what's good."
  },
  {
    "start": 1308.48,
    "end": 1309.96,
    "text": "Well, how can we make it better?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1310.06,
    "end": 1311.06,
    "text": "I like that really much."
  },
  {
    "start": 1311.48,
    "end": 1313.16,
    "text": "Thank you that you were part of the show here."
  },
  {
    "start": 1313.68,
    "end": 1315.68,
    "text": "And I wish you a good rest of the conference"
  },
  {
    "start": 1315.74,
    "end": 1316.98,
    "text": "and a safe travel back home."
  },
  {
    "start": 1317.14,
    "end": 1317.78,
    "text": "Thank you so much."
  },
  {
    "start": 1318.12,
    "end": 1318.42,
    "text": "Thank you."
  },
  {
    "start": 1318.6,
    "end": 1318.72,
    "text": "Bye-bye."
  },
  {
    "start": 1321.28,
    "end": 1322.0,
    "text": "(upbeat music)"
  },
  {
    "start": 1322.26,
    "end": 1324.3,
    "text": "[Music]"
  }
]