[ { "start": 0.999, "end": 9.5, "text": "Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed, the podcast for testers, developers and software makers who live quality as an attitude." }, { "start": 10.4, "end": 19.28, "text": "Get fresh ideas and sharp insights to grow your mindset, to learn new methods and to drive real change in how we build software." }, { "start": 19.66, "end": 22.98, "text": "Better software and better teams for a better world." }, { "start": 31.98, "end": 36.5, "text": "Hi, I'm Richie, software quality coach, keynote speaker and author." }, { "start": 37.08, "end": 38.72, "text": "My guest today is Chris Armstrong." }, { "start": 39.88, "end": 44.0, "text": "Chris has been testing since 2004 across many different industries." }, { "start": 44.52, "end": 49.1, "text": "He calls himself a pragmatic agilist and a quality practices geek." }, { "start": 50.2, "end": 53.9, "text": "He advocates for inclusion, collaboration and continuous improvement." }, { "start": 54.7, "end": 60.88, "text": "He also blogs about his thoughts and observations on testing and co-hosts the Testing Peers" }, { "start": 60.98, "end": 65.199, "text": "podcast where he and others share their experiences as test leaders." }, { "start": 66.62, "end": 70.86, "text": "In this episode, we talked about context in the term of testing." }, { "start": 72.42, "end": 78.94, "text": "Why is \"it depends\" not an excuse but the only honest answer in complex environments?" }, { "start": 79.7, "end": 85.48, "text": "How can decisive humility, being clear about what you don't know, become a tester's superpower?" }, { "start": 86.94, "end": 89.88, "text": "And why do winners have more failures than losers?" }, { "start": 90.74, "end": 96.64, "text": "We explored how testers can ask better questions, challenge processes and tools, and grow their" }, { "start": 96.78, "end": 98.38, "text": "influence by building trust." }, { "start": 99.02, "end": 104.56, "text": "You will hear why context is never static, how to navigate uncertainty, and how to turn" }, { "start": 104.66, "end": 107.02, "text": "challenges into opportunities for quality." }, { "start": 107.64, "end": 109.2, "text": "And now, enjoy the episode." }, { "start": 110.34, "end": 112.88, "text": "Hi Chris, great to have you on the show here." }, { "start": 113.56, "end": 115.18, "text": "Happy to be here, Richie, thank you." }, { "start": 116.22, "end": 121.28, "text": "Yeah, it's great. It's a pleasure that you are here now in the Software Testing Unleashed" }, { "start": 121.38, "end": 123.16, "text": "and we do an episode together." }, { "start": 124.0, "end": 126.76, "text": "You were mentioned by so many people that I should interview you," }, { "start": 126.94, "end": 129.56, "text": "so and now you are here. So expectations are high." }, { "start": 130.76, "end": 132.42, "text": "Set myself up for failure there." }, { "start": 133.48, "end": 135.84, "text": "Yeah, but I think you can deal with that." }, { "start": 136.959, "end": 142.9, "text": "Yeah, and when we do the preparation call for this episode," }, { "start": 143.29, "end": 146.24, "text": "we talked about what can we talk about, how can we start in," }, { "start": 146.32, "end": 150.02, "text": "and there was one trigger word for me, which was very interesting" }, { "start": 150.03, "end": 154.28, "text": "to think about context in the relation to testers" }, { "start": 154.46, "end": 157.54, "text": "and the quality strategy and the testing strategy." }, { "start": 158.16, "end": 160.78, "text": "So I think this is a very important topic." }, { "start": 161.22, "end": 163.38, "text": "And I would say, what do you mean with that?" }, { "start": 164.28, "end": 168.08, "text": "I mean, where do we start? Well, we could start anywhere. But I mean," }, { "start": 169.48, "end": 173.66, "text": "there's a classic answer that we have when we are asked questions, which is always," }, { "start": 174.2, "end": 180.0, "text": "it depends. Which the long, long version is it depends on the context, because I can give you" }, { "start": 180.06, "end": 185.9, "text": "an answer of what I think from history, and from experience, and from reading what something might" }, { "start": 185.9, "end": 192.599, "text": "be. But until I understand full context, I don't know what will happen. And as we live in a very" }, { "start": 192.6, "end": 198.74, "text": "iterative way, we also don't know what may emerge that we don't know already today. So" }, { "start": 200.36, "end": 207.28, "text": "when we talk about context, it's very important to be flexible, to be pragmatic, to be as well" }, { "start": 207.48, "end": 212.74, "text": "informed as we can be today, as much as we need to be to be able to begin. We don't really exist" }, { "start": 212.74, "end": 220.14, "text": "in a world where everything is known before we start our work. And so the value of context is" }, { "start": 220.12, "end": 227.88, "text": "incredibly important, but also articulating that in a way that means that I'm not saying I'm not" }, { "start": 228.04, "end": 234.6, "text": "doing my job. This is why this is a valuable thing. That sometimes is a harder sell than just" }, { "start": 234.9, "end": 242.66, "text": "doing the wrong thing first. Yeah, yeah. I think that this can be very overwhelming for us in the" }, { "start": 242.8, "end": 247.959, "text": "project environment. We don't know what is tomorrow. We have very complex contexts in our" }, { "start": 247.96, "end": 253.94, "text": "projects in our environments, different systems, all the AI stuff now, how can we deal with that?" }, { "start": 254.64, "end": 260.14, "text": "Well, I think I was asked a question about what characteristics we need to have as testers in" }, { "start": 260.16, "end": 263.64, "text": "the future beyond the classic attributes of like curiosity and critical thinking." }, { "start": 264.56, "end": 272.38, "text": "And one of the most important things for me is almost a combination of decisive humility." }, { "start": 273.3, "end": 277.18, "text": "So I'm very strong, I'm very decisive in the fact that there's a lot that I do not know." }, { "start": 278.6, "end": 292.32, "text": "But knowing what to do with that, knowing where I can go to make sure that I am able to find out what I need to know, when I need to know it, I know where I need to go, what I need to read, who I need to speak to is very important." }, { "start": 293.1, "end": 300.0, "text": "And when we look at changes that happen in our industry, oftentimes people are full of fear of the unknown." }, { "start": 300.32, "end": 304.1, "text": "And fair enough, there's a lot of things in the unknown that we don't know." }, { "start": 304.18, "end": 306.8, "text": "However, there is also a lot of opportunity." }, { "start": 307.82, "end": 309.66, "text": "And where we are concerned with things like" }, { "start": 309.82, "end": 312.72, "text": "might replace stuff or might be a threat to stuff," }, { "start": 313.2, "end": 315.74, "text": "it's better for us to be at the forefront" }, { "start": 316.42, "end": 319.36, "text": "of that innovation, of that knowledge, of that direction." }, { "start": 319.88, "end": 322.54, "text": "So actually treating things with cautious optimism" }, { "start": 323.22, "end": 324.68, "text": "is very, very important as well." }, { "start": 324.8, "end": 328.28, "text": "And that isn't easy unless you are in a position" }, { "start": 328.44, "end": 330.34, "text": "where perhaps you can back yourself up" }, { "start": 331.02, "end": 333.28, "text": "or have allies to support you" }, { "start": 333.28, "end": 337.08, "text": "because the traditional mindset is you need to have a very well-known path," }, { "start": 337.2, "end": 339.72, "text": "know what you're going to do, know where you're going to go." }, { "start": 340.02, "end": 343.74, "text": "And actually comfort in the unknown is kind of something that we have to become" }, { "start": 344.04, "end": 344.54, "text": "masters of." }, { "start": 346.34, "end": 351.24, "text": "I think it was really a very important skill and not easy to develop," }, { "start": 351.78, "end": 355.84, "text": "especially if you live in a country like I do in the German speaking area." }, { "start": 356.16, "end": 358.76, "text": "We are very well known for thinking about" }, { "start": 358.76, "end": 362.7, "text": "the problems and the unknown and what could be happen and so on." }, { "start": 362.96, "end": 368.84, "text": "And I often miss this optimistic view and to say, OK, what can we do with the things" }, { "start": 368.84, "end": 369.98, "text": "we have in control now?" }, { "start": 370.54, "end": 373.42, "text": "It's not always a default mindset." }, { "start": 374.83, "end": 382.08, "text": "I think as testers, very often we were drawn into our roles because we are good at catastrophizing," }, { "start": 382.7, "end": 385.48, "text": "good at identifying risks and problems." }, { "start": 386.26, "end": 391.319, "text": "But that also doesn't do us any favors in the long run when it comes to collaborating" }, { "start": 391.32, "end": 395.84, "text": "with cross-functional teams and other people because we are seen as cost, as no people," }, { "start": 396.19, "end": 403.48, "text": "as negatives, folks that you don't want around. And actually, that turn of mindset from failure" }, { "start": 403.48, "end": 409.12, "text": "to success, it's not easy, it's not necessarily instinctive, but that is the way that we win" }, { "start": 410.16, "end": 417.399, "text": "together rather than being diametrically opposed. Yeah, and how can we evolve, how can we grow this" }, { "start": 417.4, "end": 425.0, "text": "mindsets. So we cannot go to the people and say you have to change your mindset now. So I think" }, { "start": 425.08, "end": 430.86, "text": "that wouldn't work. How can we help people to get this new view, this more optimistic view?" }, { "start": 431.8, "end": 438.24, "text": "So I'm still learning and it is different with every team and every group of people I have the" }, { "start": 438.4, "end": 445.04, "text": "privilege to work with. Back to that context point, understanding what makes folks tick," }, { "start": 445.8, "end": 449.6, "text": "what they're interested in, what they aren't interested in, what they want to spend more time" }, { "start": 449.72, "end": 454.34, "text": "in, what they want, what they're finding as a problem, like pressure points in their lives." }, { "start": 454.56, "end": 462.92, "text": "Understanding those humans that we work with will enable us to be able to articulate what we have" }, { "start": 462.96, "end": 472.58, "text": "identified as a problem area or an issue and then present to them the opportunity. Doing that by" }, { "start": 472.52, "end": 480.98, "text": "ourselves often is not the smartest idea. I routinely will speak with friends, colleagues," }, { "start": 481.23, "end": 486.8, "text": "and I call it a sanity check, just to say, look, before I go and speak to this person about this" }, { "start": 486.92, "end": 492.34, "text": "thing, and sometimes I can't reveal too much context, but you know we can abstract some of" }, { "start": 492.38, "end": 499.159, "text": "that. You discuss how you have read a situation, what you would like to do, and you try and check" }, { "start": 499.16, "end": 508.02, "text": "that your approach and how you think something might go will play in the ears of somebody else." }, { "start": 508.2, "end": 514.479, "text": "Sometimes articulating out loud a thought process or a plan is significantly more" }, { "start": 515.5, "end": 521.82, "text": "active than whatever just spins around in our own heads. And there is trial and error, but again," }, { "start": 522.24, "end": 526.359, "text": "that decisive humility where you say, I don't quite know all these things, but I've identified" }, { "start": 526.36, "end": 527.54, "text": "margin area for opportunity." }, { "start": 527.92, "end": 529.62, "text": "I think this is something that, based" }, { "start": 529.74, "end": 532.88, "text": "on my understanding of this issue that we're having," }, { "start": 533.72, "end": 535.14, "text": "there's something that we can do together" }, { "start": 535.28, "end": 536.82, "text": "to improve these things." }, { "start": 538.079, "end": 539.74, "text": "I think it's also very--" }, { "start": 539.86, "end": 542.92, "text": "what you said, it's also for me like a perspective change." }, { "start": 543.86, "end": 547.68, "text": "When I go to somebody to think what are his or her values," }, { "start": 548.32, "end": 553.919, "text": "what does she or he needs, and to get in better relation" }, { "start": 553.92, "end": 558.54, "text": "with them and then to discuss the things I have to clarify" }, { "start": 558.59, "end": 559.5, "text": "or something like that." }, { "start": 559.84, "end": 562.52, "text": "Yeah, I mean, ultimately, in our careers," }, { "start": 563.16, "end": 568.04, "text": "while we might be our own main protagonist in the story," }, { "start": 568.16, "end": 569.42, "text": "we're not in anybody else's." }, { "start": 569.88, "end": 572.8, "text": "And we cannot succeed as an island." }, { "start": 573.97, "end": 575.5, "text": "We need other people to succeed." }, { "start": 575.55, "end": 577.5, "text": "We only learn if we learn through other people." }, { "start": 577.57, "end": 580.54, "text": "We only grow if we work with other people." }, { "start": 580.54, "end": 582.94, "text": "So appreciating them is incredibly important." }, { "start": 583.4, "end": 587.52, "text": "I think it was Christopher Nordstrom's program for Eurostar" }, { "start": 587.58, "end": 588.48, "text": "a couple of years ago." }, { "start": 588.78, "end": 592.38, "text": "The theme of it was software testing is a social activity." }, { "start": 592.62, "end": 595.98, "text": "I know he's not the first one to coin that term." }, { "start": 596.42, "end": 601.18, "text": "But I felt that that is so true, even in this day and age" }, { "start": 601.28, "end": 604.96, "text": "with AI and other areas in our lives." }, { "start": 605.5, "end": 610.359, "text": "We still have social interaction at the core of what" }, { "start": 610.36, "end": 612.12, "text": "we need to be able to succeed." }, { "start": 614.2, "end": 617.58, "text": "- And what do you think, how can we learn all this," }, { "start": 617.84, "end": 619.9, "text": "which soft skills we need for that" }, { "start": 619.94, "end": 621.28, "text": "and how can we learn that?" }, { "start": 625.04, "end": 626.46, "text": "- Learning soft skills is harder" }, { "start": 626.58, "end": 627.82, "text": "than learning hard skills." }, { "start": 630.54, "end": 633.76, "text": "And often we have to break down how we're doing things" }, { "start": 633.8, "end": 636.22, "text": "and I have to have a lot of self-reflection." }, { "start": 636.9, "end": 640.08, "text": "I did, before I was married with my wife," }, { "start": 640.28, "end": 642.88, "text": "I went through a course on it based on a book called" }, { "start": 642.98, "end": 645.88, "text": "\"The Five Love Languages\" by a guy called Gary Chapman." }, { "start": 647.2, "end": 650.4, "text": "And from that, they were saying, you're" }, { "start": 650.4, "end": 652.1, "text": "in this lovely honeymoon period together." }, { "start": 652.22, "end": 653.12, "text": "Everything is perfect." }, { "start": 653.22, "end": 654.24, "text": "You can't do anything wrong." }, { "start": 654.62, "end": 657.96, "text": "But when you are married, you are financially combined." }, { "start": 658.12, "end": 661.76, "text": "You're intertwined, dependent on each other for success and failure" }, { "start": 661.76, "end": 662.18, "text": "and everything." }, { "start": 662.78, "end": 664.42, "text": "Your perspectives will change." }, { "start": 664.62, "end": 667.22, "text": "And you are two folks that are trying to combine everything." }, { "start": 667.64, "end": 671.02, "text": "And in many ways, I was able to abstract that into the workplace and go," }, { "start": 671.76, "end": 672.96, "text": "look, engineers are different." }, { "start": 674.42, "end": 677.6, "text": "Flavors to customer service people, to technical writers," }, { "start": 677.9, "end": 682.56, "text": "we're all wired very differently with socially differently motivated." }, { "start": 683.32, "end": 686.52, "text": "Some of us get very irritated, but we're very into that." }, { "start": 686.62, "end": 689.68, "text": "We've got introverts, extroverts and a bunch of different people." }, { "start": 689.88, "end": 692.7, "text": "So I made a workshop," }, { "start": 693.34, "end": 699.32, "text": "which I run in a couple of places where it was looking at how five love languages work for us" }, { "start": 699.44, "end": 705.98, "text": "in an engineering space, abstracting from love to more sort of appreciation. Now, thankfully," }, { "start": 706.3, "end": 710.24, "text": "Gary and someone else have written a book about making this in the workplace. So you don't have" }, { "start": 710.24, "end": 715.92, "text": "to rely on my interpretations. You've got a professional book on these areas. But it's a" }, { "start": 715.98, "end": 721.179, "text": "way of having that sort of upfront level of understanding of different peoples, what makes" }, { "start": 721.18, "end": 728.0, "text": "them tick because there's a lot of research about focus and diffuse mode that folks have" }, { "start": 728.0, "end": 732.68, "text": "and they get very irritated and can't get back into work. There's some people are very" }, { "start": 734.54, "end": 741.04, "text": "able to see big pictures, some are very micro picture people and without understanding those" }, { "start": 741.3, "end": 747.339, "text": "people you can't work with them and it's very easy to irritate people especially in a remote" }, { "start": 747.34, "end": 753.9, "text": "space. And we can't see so many of those social cues that we might have. But again, you can" }, { "start": 754.16, "end": 760.14, "text": "learn what some social cues are like. You can demonstrate yourself how you might like" }, { "start": 760.16, "end": 764.92, "text": "other people to be interacting with yourself. And if we're in a position of influence, and" }, { "start": 764.94, "end": 767.9, "text": "that doesn't mean you have to be a leader or a senior or something, that could just" }, { "start": 767.98, "end": 773.759, "text": "be I'm a tester in a team and I need to advocate quality and I need to tell a bigger picture" }, { "start": 773.76, "end": 780.64, "text": "to people or bring new ideas into my space, that's a position of influence where we can" }, { "start": 780.76, "end": 786.32, "text": "bring that in. And knowing how we want to demonstrate that to people, again, decisive" }, { "start": 786.46, "end": 793.36, "text": "humility but also cautious optimism and being able to share that with a group, maybe making" }, { "start": 793.48, "end": 797.54, "text": "sure that some folks who are less comfortable in those spaces give them time, give them" }, { "start": 797.4, "end": 803.98, "text": "space. Respect, really important and it takes longer than just the point the finger and say" }, { "start": 804.16, "end": 811.72, "text": "this is what we will do. Yeah, that's great. I think also that the testers are very influential" }, { "start": 812.0, "end": 818.82, "text": "a role in the whole area as you said the quality advocate and we have to talk to everybody to get" }, { "start": 818.92, "end": 826.839, "text": "our information to our requirements to with Ops how and all the other stuff. So we are on a role" }, { "start": 826.84, "end": 828.48, "text": "which is very connected." }, { "start": 828.74, "end": 832.46, "text": "And so it's also very, very important" }, { "start": 832.46, "end": 835.82, "text": "to look at this role and this interconnection" }, { "start": 835.9, "end": 837.64, "text": "with the others in this context area." }, { "start": 839.62, "end": 842.8, "text": "So when-- but the context is not just only other people." }, { "start": 843.16, "end": 847.28, "text": "This is also the whole company or the project" }, { "start": 847.28, "end": 848.96, "text": "and all the technology we have there" }, { "start": 849.04, "end": 850.94, "text": "and all the processes and this stuff." }, { "start": 851.82, "end": 854.42, "text": "How can we deal with that better?" }, { "start": 854.68, "end": 856.14, "text": "and how can we use that more?" }, { "start": 857.44, "end": 858.74, "text": "Asking a lot of questions." }, { "start": 858.96, "end": 861.06, "text": "People say QA stands for question asker." }, { "start": 861.16, "end": 861.52, "text": "Why not?" }, { "start": 862.56, "end": 864.98, "text": "If we don't question why something exists," }, { "start": 865.2, "end": 868.04, "text": "what its purpose is, what the story behind it is," }, { "start": 868.2, "end": 870.28, "text": "then we might be using the wrong technology." }, { "start": 870.54, "end": 873.02, "text": "Maybe we've chosen this tool." }, { "start": 873.26, "end": 874.1, "text": "Why did we choose this tool?" }, { "start": 874.2, "end": 875.32, "text": "What was the path to that tool?" }, { "start": 876.28, "end": 877.84, "text": "What's the future look like with that tool?" }, { "start": 877.85, "end": 878.78, "text": "Is it being deprecated?" }, { "start": 878.94, "end": 881.1, "text": "Will it be supporting our future architecture?" }, { "start": 882.16, "end": 887.4, "text": "Is there a tool set available that's more broad in the market" }, { "start": 888.08, "end": 889.92, "text": "for front-end developers?" }, { "start": 889.93, "end": 892.68, "text": "Are they using Angular still, or are they using React?" }, { "start": 892.98, "end": 894.26, "text": "Those are important questions to ask." }, { "start": 894.26, "end": 897.42, "text": "Are we making the right decisions in the industry" }, { "start": 897.56, "end": 897.84, "text": "trends?" }, { "start": 897.92, "end": 901.72, "text": "And so a lot of it isn't just resting on what we have today" }, { "start": 901.82, "end": 903.14, "text": "and understanding today's context." }, { "start": 903.56, "end": 907.86, "text": "Understanding context is a perpetual role." }, { "start": 908.3, "end": 910.36, "text": "Staying still is the only thing you can do that's wrong." }, { "start": 910.76, "end": 914.78, "text": "If you like, really, it's going forward and understanding those changes." }, { "start": 915.0, "end": 918.88, "text": "So do we publish roadmaps of our future support?" }, { "start": 919.52, "end": 920.04, "text": "Hopefully we do." }, { "start": 920.98, "end": 923.38, "text": "Do our do our tool vendors, do they do that?" }, { "start": 923.78, "end": 926.84, "text": "Do suppliers do that with what they've got in terms of" }, { "start": 927.38, "end": 928.96, "text": "knowing where industry trends are going?" }, { "start": 929.04, "end": 931.7, "text": "We're seeing a very strong push for AI." }, { "start": 932.22, "end": 935.34, "text": "Great. What decision are we going to be making with regard to that?" }, { "start": 935.52, "end": 939.14, "text": "Which which sandbox are we going to invest our time and tokens in?" }, { "start": 940.28, "end": 945.28, "text": "how is that going to apply with future regulation around GDPR, accessibility," }, { "start": 945.94, "end": 949.92, "text": "other sort of incoming regulations. We need to know how these things intertwine because" }, { "start": 950.8, "end": 956.76, "text": "that published thing is out of date when it's published, almost always. Same is true of the" }, { "start": 956.76, "end": 961.86, "text": "way that we operate with our own strategies and standards and best practices in the workplace." }, { "start": 962.96, "end": 970.26, "text": "It's meeting what we know today, but it needs to be flexible, agile, if you will, to change to" }, { "start": 970.26, "end": 971.78, "text": "to whatever's coming in the future." }, { "start": 972.44, "end": 974.82, "text": "And that, again, that's that unknown," }, { "start": 975.18, "end": 979.56, "text": "but it's knowing how I'm going to deal with that scenario." }, { "start": 980.3, "end": 983.06, "text": "Not every path, but this happens now." }, { "start": 983.76, "end": 984.96, "text": "OK, I understand." }, { "start": 985.52, "end": 988.02, "text": "This is where I go to uncover those things." }, { "start": 988.08, "end": 990.88, "text": "It's being calm and being in a position" }, { "start": 990.98, "end": 993.74, "text": "where I can be proactive in the face of change." }, { "start": 996.1, "end": 999.34, "text": "It looks for me like that we testers can also" }, { "start": 1000.42, "end": 1004.78, "text": "look beyond the pure software quality and question also," }, { "start": 1005.34, "end": 1007.04, "text": "as you said, the tools and the processes." }, { "start": 1007.26, "end": 1008.6, "text": "Why are we doing this stuff?" }, { "start": 1009.36, "end": 1011.84, "text": "And it gets more an overall quality view" }, { "start": 1011.94, "end": 1016.1, "text": "that we want to propagate into the team and to other" }, { "start": 1016.1, "end": 1017.7, "text": "to reflect these things too." }, { "start": 1018.32, "end": 1022.779, "text": "But it needs a lot of courage for us testers" }, { "start": 1022.78, "end": 1026.04, "text": "to go to someone who decided to buy a tool," }, { "start": 1026.12, "end": 1029.24, "text": "and we ask them why did we buy this tool?" }, { "start": 1031.16, "end": 1031.88, "text": "It does." }, { "start": 1032.74, "end": 1035.28, "text": "And the funny thing is, when you talk to somebody" }, { "start": 1036.699, "end": 1038.48, "text": "and you're asking their opinions, more often than not," }, { "start": 1038.6, "end": 1040.28, "text": "people actually quite like to share their opinions." }, { "start": 1041.42, "end": 1043.98, "text": "The way that you frame that question, again," }, { "start": 1044.16, "end": 1046.28, "text": "it comes from that failure to success kind of angle." }, { "start": 1046.36, "end": 1049.8, "text": "If you came over and said, this was a garbage choice, what" }, { "start": 1049.86, "end": 1050.56, "text": "is going on here?" }, { "start": 1050.83, "end": 1052.76, "text": "And they go, well, actually, I was" }, { "start": 1052.76, "end": 1058.24, "text": "charge of rolling that tool out. You've already started yourself several steps backwards from" }, { "start": 1058.28, "end": 1063.98, "text": "a conversation. And that takes away the respect and the sort of humility of where you're coming" }, { "start": 1064.16, "end": 1069.72, "text": "from in that space. And while you need to be courageous and brave, because I won't know" }, { "start": 1069.82, "end": 1074.22, "text": "the answer to that if I don't ask that question. And if I don't know that question, I don't" }, { "start": 1074.26, "end": 1079.7, "text": "have that context. And how can I apply correct solutions or suggestions? How can we do that" }, { "start": 1079.7, "end": 1087.12, "text": "we don't understand. And sometimes the answer is, I don't know. Because it's happened and," }, { "start": 1087.44, "end": 1093.4, "text": "you know, think something exists over here. And it is, it's a genuine concern we have with AI" }, { "start": 1093.56, "end": 1099.36, "text": "coming in with, how does that work? I don't know, being an answer that we will see more of." }, { "start": 1100.78, "end": 1109.68, "text": "But yeah, you have to be courageous. And it's terrifying, you know, as a teenager, I was" }, { "start": 1109.68, "end": 1115.74, "text": "myself up inside because I had the unknown decision because not making a decision, not" }, { "start": 1115.96, "end": 1123.38, "text": "doing something is actually less useful than getting a rejection or a failure because you" }, { "start": 1123.5, "end": 1130.62, "text": "cannot move on with an unknown. You can't build on an unknown fluid flux kind of foundation." }, { "start": 1130.62, "end": 1131.42, "text": "It doesn't work." }, { "start": 1133.04, "end": 1135.54, "text": "Yesterday, when you just mentioned that," }, { "start": 1135.94, "end": 1139.42, "text": "yesterday I heard a quote, it was very, very touchy for me." }, { "start": 1140.62, "end": 1143.9, "text": "Someone said that winners have more failures than losers," }, { "start": 1144.96, "end": 1148.36, "text": "because as a winner, you try, you get into the unknown," }, { "start": 1148.64, "end": 1152.12, "text": "you try to deal with this stuff and sure, there are some things that wouldn't work." }, { "start": 1152.28, "end": 1156.54, "text": "But as a loser, you sit on the couch and just looking and waiting." }, { "start": 1157.02, "end": 1157.54, "text": "It's true." }, { "start": 1157.76, "end": 1161.9, "text": "You know, Buzz Dykstra often pushes the quote" }, { "start": 1162.0, "end": 1163.04, "text": "from one of his slides that says," }, { "start": 1163.2, "end": 1165.3, "text": "never trust a test that you've not seen fail." }, { "start": 1166.419, "end": 1169.74, "text": "And I want to see failures 'cause then I can build trust" }, { "start": 1169.8, "end": 1171.5, "text": "and confidence in the testing that I'm doing." }, { "start": 1172.48, "end": 1175.56, "text": "Without failures, I question pure success" }, { "start": 1176.22, "end": 1178.7, "text": "without any hiccups much, much more than I do" }, { "start": 1178.94, "end": 1180.8, "text": "from a failure that was a learning opportunity." }, { "start": 1182.16, "end": 1182.62, "text": "- Yeah, yeah." }, { "start": 1183.18, "end": 1185.56, "text": "And I think now in nowadays when we talk" }, { "start": 1185.56, "end": 1188.86, "text": "about all the AI stuff, this is such a great opportunity" }, { "start": 1189.14, "end": 1191.5, "text": "because this is, for us in testing," }, { "start": 1192.06, "end": 1193.22, "text": "more or less a green field." }, { "start": 1193.28, "end": 1196.64, "text": "So we have to do this unknown stuff." }, { "start": 1196.64, "end": 1198.84, "text": "We have to experiment what works, what not," }, { "start": 1199.18, "end": 1202.48, "text": "what are quality characteristics and methods we can use." }, { "start": 1202.84, "end": 1206.06, "text": "We don't know because there is a little bit of literature now" }, { "start": 1206.18, "end": 1207.38, "text": "and some research." }, { "start": 1207.74, "end": 1209.94, "text": "But we have to deal with it in practice." }, { "start": 1210.4, "end": 1212.82, "text": "And it's a very new field for us." }, { "start": 1213.3, "end": 1213.68, "text": "It is." }, { "start": 1213.78, "end": 1220.56, "text": "And I 100% understand the cynicism behind that." }, { "start": 1220.96, "end": 1224.58, "text": "It's in many ways symptomatic of what" }, { "start": 1224.58, "end": 1227.04, "text": "we felt when there was much more of an automation" }, { "start": 1227.36, "end": 1228.84, "text": "boom 10, 15 years ago." }, { "start": 1229.66, "end": 1231.36, "text": "And it's true." }, { "start": 1231.54, "end": 1234.78, "text": "That thing that we do today will change." }, { "start": 1236.34, "end": 1238.66, "text": "But as we've discussed already, change happens." }, { "start": 1238.96, "end": 1241.84, "text": "But being a part of that change is where the opportunity lies." }, { "start": 1242.52, "end": 1243.96, "text": "There's a lot of parts of our jobs" }, { "start": 1244.6, "end": 1247.5, "text": "where we will roll our eyes and we will be frustrated" }, { "start": 1247.54, "end": 1249.82, "text": "and say, \"Oh, I'm doing this today.\"" }, { "start": 1249.82, "end": 1252.36, "text": "Well, if we are at this, like you say," }, { "start": 1252.44, "end": 1255.1, "text": "this sort of foundational level" }, { "start": 1255.24, "end": 1257.36, "text": "in the evolution of AI in our space," }, { "start": 1257.8, "end": 1262.56, "text": "what a great opportunity to see how AI can help us do that." }, { "start": 1263.04, "end": 1266.46, "text": "We're gonna have to become masters of good quality," }, { "start": 1267.22, "end": 1272.02, "text": "prompting, good quality GPT creations to assist us." }, { "start": 1272.24, "end": 1274.74, "text": "Otherwise, someone who doesn't appreciate our craft" }, { "start": 1275.0, "end": 1277.28, "text": "is going to create something that they've sold to somebody" }, { "start": 1277.32, "end": 1280.68, "text": "who doesn't do our job to say that we're gonna save you time," }, { "start": 1280.94, "end": 1284.4, "text": "money, optimize X, Y, Z, and we will be there going," }, { "start": 1285.5, "end": 1286.94, "text": "but no, I don't understand." }, { "start": 1287.08, "end": 1287.92, "text": "I didn't read into this." }, { "start": 1287.98, "end": 1288.94, "text": "I was just doing my job." }, { "start": 1289.06, "end": 1290.68, "text": "We have to be a part of that narrative" }, { "start": 1290.76, "end": 1293.3, "text": "and that storytelling and driving those things forward." }, { "start": 1293.6, "end": 1296.32, "text": "Because if we don't, not only will software quality" }, { "start": 1296.34, "end": 1300.04, "text": "in the future fail and fall down the floor," }, { "start": 1300.3, "end": 1305.14, "text": "like the lowest possible tier but also we won't know why apart from saying I" }, { "start": 1305.24, "end": 1311.82, "text": "told you so because everything evolves and changes. Yeah yeah yeah and I think" }, { "start": 1311.86, "end": 1317.58, "text": "the future will bring much more for us to deal with because we when now wipe" }, { "start": 1317.66, "end": 1321.76, "text": "coding and all this stuff is coming we will get a huge amount of software in" }, { "start": 1321.76, "end": 1327.18, "text": "the next months and years and who should test that and who should ask for quality" }, { "start": 1327.18, "end": 1332.08, "text": "there. To test the test. Well what does quality look like? Even that perception is going to change." }, { "start": 1332.08, "end": 1338.52, "text": "I look at what the media that my children consume and I go that's awful, it's terrible, but for them" }, { "start": 1338.58, "end": 1344.7, "text": "it's meeting their needs and their wants. You know, I am no longer that demographic for quite some time." }, { "start": 1345.72, "end": 1351.42, "text": "You know, whoever that end person is, is going to continue to be what ultimately drives what quality" }, { "start": 1351.42, "end": 1357.46, "text": "is for a user, the way that we achieve that isn't something that they care about at all." }, { "start": 1357.86, "end": 1361.08, "text": "We care about it because we want to get the best things out that we take pride in" }, { "start": 1361.6, "end": 1367.36, "text": "for the right people. And you're right, that understanding of a holistic way of working to" }, { "start": 1367.6, "end": 1373.4, "text": "balance our verification, validation work, it's going to persist. But what we do day to day," }, { "start": 1374.62, "end": 1382.34, "text": "wildly different. Yeah, yeah. When we come back to the to the context and when we see the last 20" }, { "start": 1382.48, "end": 1389.0, "text": "minutes we talked about questioning everything. So people asking questions and technology and" }, { "start": 1389.18, "end": 1397.04, "text": "tools and all this stuff. How can I as a as a tester prioritize this for me? Where to start?" }, { "start": 1397.4, "end": 1403.84, "text": "Because there's so many questions and so many people I can ask and so many stuff on the project." }, { "start": 1403.98, "end": 1410.08, "text": "How can I focus my direction to the things that are really valuable for the project?" }, { "start": 1410.29, "end": 1414.06, "text": "It's a fantastic question and one that we get asked a lot by stakeholders and managers because" }, { "start": 1414.26, "end": 1418.74, "text": "they're like, if you say we need all of the things and there's no boundaries, there's no" }, { "start": 1420.22, "end": 1424.5, "text": "constraints to what we're doing, then almost nothing could ever happen because we're always" }, { "start": 1424.78, "end": 1433.96, "text": "exploring forever and that wouldn't work. So the answer is really you have to begin" }, { "start": 1433.96, "end": 1439.96, "text": "by targeting a few things, perhaps that's with having a few hypotheses based on initial discussions." }, { "start": 1440.82, "end": 1448.98, "text": "So perhaps we have a feeling that there's some issues with release quality." }, { "start": 1449.62, "end": 1455.44, "text": "OK, so we dig a bit deeper and speak to some relevant people, maybe some customer service representatives," }, { "start": 1455.82, "end": 1459.66, "text": "some pipeline people who might call themselves DevOps, whatever." }, { "start": 1459.96, "end": 1463.04, "text": "And we understand those bits, we speak to the testers," }, { "start": 1463.14, "end": 1466.06, "text": "we try and get a little bit of a picture painted" }, { "start": 1466.52, "end": 1470.18, "text": "based on that hypothesis to try and work out why." }, { "start": 1470.52, "end": 1472.08, "text": "We dig into the logs, you know," }, { "start": 1472.2, "end": 1473.44, "text": "don't just talk to people," }, { "start": 1474.0, "end": 1475.16, "text": "there should be access to the tools" }, { "start": 1475.2, "end": 1475.96, "text": "and those sorts of things." }, { "start": 1475.96, "end": 1477.22, "text": "And we begin to paint those things." }, { "start": 1477.68, "end": 1481.3, "text": "I developed a quality engineering adoption framework" }, { "start": 1482.7, "end": 1485.18, "text": "and the initial premise was all about" }, { "start": 1485.62, "end": 1486.56, "text": "context, context, context," }, { "start": 1487.0, "end": 1489.98, "text": "but without outputs that people can see" }, { "start": 1490.23, "end": 1491.46, "text": "and measure and understand," }, { "start": 1492.52, "end": 1495.06, "text": "no one's gonna buy into the work that you're doing" }, { "start": 1495.42, "end": 1498.72, "text": "and the why, because they'll just hear you talking." }, { "start": 1498.81, "end": 1501.54, "text": "You need to have tangible outcomes for your work." }, { "start": 1501.95, "end": 1505.12, "text": "And so that initial discovery phase," }, { "start": 1505.41, "end": 1507.14, "text": "I very much painted along the lines" }, { "start": 1507.14, "end": 1509.32, "text": "of building up a bunch of working assumptions," }, { "start": 1510.2, "end": 1512.92, "text": "things that I will need to sanity check with people" }, { "start": 1513.06, "end": 1516.14, "text": "to understand as we go, observations that I have," }, { "start": 1516.64, "end": 1521.38, "text": "And also things like an appraisal of the tech stack" }, { "start": 1521.44, "end": 1523.96, "text": "that we've got, questions that we have underlying," }, { "start": 1524.4, "end": 1525.56, "text": "the whys, the whats, the hows," }, { "start": 1526.72, "end": 1529.68, "text": "gathering problem statements from key personnel." }, { "start": 1530.68, "end": 1532.12, "text": "What is it that's going well?" }, { "start": 1532.78, "end": 1535.12, "text": "What is it that's a pain for you every day?" }, { "start": 1535.76, "end": 1539.58, "text": "There's a good tester down the road from me in Wales" }, { "start": 1539.7, "end": 1540.38, "text": "called Stu Crocker," }, { "start": 1540.48, "end": 1542.92, "text": "and his definition of quality" }, { "start": 1542.92, "end": 1546.44, "text": "is it's the removal of unnecessary friction." }, { "start": 1547.76, "end": 1549.66, "text": "We have necessary friction, of course," }, { "start": 1550.04, "end": 1551.74, "text": "but what is it that's getting in the way of us" }, { "start": 1551.96, "end": 1553.08, "text": "that doesn't need to be there?" }, { "start": 1553.41, "end": 1556.92, "text": "And often asking that question framed in that way," }, { "start": 1557.89, "end": 1559.86, "text": "we can discuss that through pipelines" }, { "start": 1560.0, "end": 1562.24, "text": "that are processes, that are culture," }, { "start": 1562.5, "end": 1564.46, "text": "but are also through technology," }, { "start": 1564.74, "end": 1567.28, "text": "through our actual physical pipelines," }, { "start": 1567.9, "end": 1568.92, "text": "physical, you know what I mean?" }, { "start": 1570.44, "end": 1572.9, "text": "And by uncovering those bits" }, { "start": 1572.9, "end": 1575.52, "text": "by validating them with people, checking them and saying," }, { "start": 1575.62, "end": 1576.2, "text": "is this right?" }, { "start": 1576.92, "end": 1578.26, "text": "Just like when we're running tests" }, { "start": 1578.26, "end": 1580.2, "text": "and just checking end to end where the blockers are" }, { "start": 1580.2, "end": 1582.86, "text": "and stepping through, maybe going a bit slower" }, { "start": 1583.34, "end": 1584.42, "text": "and stepping through each step" }, { "start": 1584.46, "end": 1586.24, "text": "and injecting failures into bits" }, { "start": 1586.26, "end": 1589.08, "text": "to sort of understand better where things are working." }, { "start": 1589.32, "end": 1591.46, "text": "We can do that when we're uncovering context" }, { "start": 1591.58, "end": 1594.98, "text": "within our organizations as well, but it doesn't work" }, { "start": 1595.28, "end": 1597.36, "text": "if you just, if I wrote a test end to end," }, { "start": 1598.039, "end": 1600.74, "text": "never ever run it to understand what it was doing" }, { "start": 1600.98, "end": 1602.4, "text": "and just threw it in there and go," }, { "start": 1602.7, "end": 1606.1, "text": "that's done, no one should have confidence in that." }, { "start": 1606.32, "end": 1608.54, "text": "Which is, again, same point with AI," }, { "start": 1609.84, "end": 1612.1, "text": "Gen AI sort of test, it's the exact same thing." }, { "start": 1613.12, "end": 1616.56, "text": "You have to have a plan for what you're trying to achieve," }, { "start": 1616.68, "end": 1619.62, "text": "a hypothesis, a goal, acceptance criteria, if you will," }, { "start": 1620.06, "end": 1622.68, "text": "and then you need to sort of step through it" }, { "start": 1623.06, "end": 1625.12, "text": "and validate it, get it reviewed by other people," }, { "start": 1625.22, "end": 1626.5, "text": "never mark your own homework." }, { "start": 1627.28, "end": 1628.1, "text": "All very important." }, { "start": 1628.26, "end": 1629.2, "text": "- Yeah, yeah." }, { "start": 1630.06, "end": 1631.3, "text": "Yes, some great insight." }, { "start": 1631.46, "end": 1632.3, "text": "Thank you very much." }, { "start": 1633.22, "end": 1635.02, "text": "Yeah, Chris, we're nearly on the end." }, { "start": 1635.2, "end": 1639.86, "text": "So I thank you very much for all exploring of these questions." }, { "start": 1640.1, "end": 1643.7, "text": "I think there is a lot of content in there" }, { "start": 1643.7, "end": 1645.92, "text": "we can explore in further episodes, too." }, { "start": 1647.04, "end": 1649.52, "text": "But it's a great overview and a new--" }, { "start": 1649.52, "end": 1651.78, "text": "I think a very great inspiration that you" }, { "start": 1652.04, "end": 1655.76, "text": "gave to ask questions to the context," }, { "start": 1656.15, "end": 1659.58, "text": "if it's people or processes or something like that." }, { "start": 1659.78, "end": 1662.24, "text": "meant to say, OK, well, where is my output?" }, { "start": 1662.32, "end": 1666.4, "text": "How can I focus on on what is really matter for the project and for me?" }, { "start": 1667.42, "end": 1668.88, "text": "So thank you very much that you were here" }, { "start": 1668.88, "end": 1672.58, "text": "on the show and hope to see you soon also in person." }, { "start": 1673.18, "end": 1673.84, "text": "Yes, I'd be happy." }, { "start": 1674.56, "end": 1675.52, "text": "Yeah, it would be great." }, { "start": 1675.96, "end": 1678.14, "text": "And yeah, have a good day. Thank you very much." }, { "start": 1678.28, "end": 1679.54, "text": "Thank you for having me very much." } ]