[ { "start": 1.079, "end": 9.58, "text": "Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed, the podcast for testers, developers and software makers who live quality as an attitude." }, { "start": 10.48, "end": 19.36, "text": "Get fresh ideas and sharp insights to grow your mindset, to learn new methods and to drive real change in how we build software." }, { "start": 19.74, "end": 22.96, "text": "Better software and better teams for a better world." }, { "start": 32.119, "end": 36.3, "text": "Hi, I'm Richie, software quality coach, keynote speaker and author." }, { "start": 37.3, "end": 41.0, "text": "My guests today are Gien Verschatse and Kenny Baas-Schwegler." }, { "start": 41.92, "end": 46.44, "text": "Gien is a software engineer and consultant with a strong background in domain modeling" }, { "start": 46.44, "end": 52.98, "text": "and software architecture. She's experienced in both object-oriented and functional programming" }, { "start": 52.98, "end": 56.42, "text": "and applies that mix in various industries, including biotech." }, { "start": 57.72, "end": 62.8, "text": "Gene is also a domain-driven design practitioner and international speaker, known for building" }, { "start": 62.9, "end": 66.16, "text": "bridges between users, domain experts, and engineers." }, { "start": 67.94, "end": 73.94, "text": "Kenny is an independent software consultant and trainer, and he focuses on software architecture" }, { "start": 74.16, "end": 75.12, "text": "and technical leadership." }, { "start": 76.46, "end": 82.1, "text": "He combines domain-driven design with team topologies to help teams build collaborative" }, { "start": 82.1, "end": 83.5, "text": "and resilience systems." }, { "start": 84.64, "end": 87.34, "text": "Kenny supports organizations in managing complexity," }, { "start": 87.66, "end": 89.66, "text": "resolving conflicts, and aligning software" }, { "start": 89.78, "end": 90.96, "text": "with real business goals." }, { "start": 91.78, "end": 94.64, "text": "He's also a regular speaker at international conferences" }, { "start": 95.12, "end": 98.06, "text": "and an active contributor to the software community." }, { "start": 99.64, "end": 100.52, "text": "And in this episode," }, { "start": 100.62, "end": 103.62, "text": "we talk about collaborative software design" }, { "start": 104.14, "end": 107.2, "text": "and why aligning people is just as important" }, { "start": 107.22, "end": 109.42, "text": "as aligning code in our projects." }, { "start": 110.94, "end": 115.46, "text": "Why do we deliver often software features we don't really understand" }, { "start": 115.65, "end": 118.6, "text": "based on some assumptions no one ever challenges?" }, { "start": 120.38, "end": 123.7, "text": "What if your biggest software problem is actually a conversation" }, { "start": 123.88, "end": 126.1, "text": "that never took place instead of bugs?" }, { "start": 127.94, "end": 131.42, "text": "And how can we design software that reflects real business needs," }, { "start": 131.84, "end": 134.7, "text": "not just what's on a diagram and in a document?" }, { "start": 136.09, "end": 138.86, "text": "We will explore how developers, testers, architects," }, { "start": 139.42, "end": 144.12, "text": "business experts can collaborate using simple and visual modeling techniques." }, { "start": 145.3, "end": 150.46, "text": "It's a very interesting topic and I'm really happy that the two are part of this show today." }, { "start": 151.0, "end": 152.76, "text": "And now enjoy the episode." }, { "start": 153.78, "end": 154.98, "text": "Hello Gien, hello Kenny." }, { "start": 155.44, "end": 156.5, "text": "Nice to have you on the show." }, { "start": 157.16, "end": 158.54, "text": "Thank you for having us, Richard." }, { "start": 159.94, "end": 160.9, "text": "Yeah, thank you for having us." }, { "start": 161.76, "end": 163.46, "text": "Yes, great that you are here." }, { "start": 164.18, "end": 169.46, "text": "It's a little bit a remote recording for the OOP conference." }, { "start": 169.9, "end": 175.0, "text": "Unfortunately, I cannot be on site at the OOP this year because I go skiing." }, { "start": 175.46, "end": 179.3, "text": "So maybe it's a good part for me." }, { "start": 180.14, "end": 184.28, "text": "Nevertheless, I want to have these topics, the interesting topics from the conference" }, { "start": 184.34, "end": 191.659, "text": "in my podcast and I saw through the abstracts and saw your workshop, your tutorial about" }, { "start": 191.66, "end": 197.24, "text": "collaborative software design and then I get big eyes and so, okay, this part we have to" }, { "start": 197.34, "end": 198.92, "text": "talk about in the podcast." }, { "start": 201.76, "end": 210.7, "text": "Yes, and as I read your abstract, it's mentioned such problems within communication with stakeholders" }, { "start": 210.88, "end": 217.98, "text": "in a software project, which is so the baseline where you start with your collaboration techniques" }, { "start": 218.06, "end": 218.56, "text": "and so on." }, { "start": 219.98, "end": 221.6, "text": "But let's focus first on the problem." }, { "start": 221.82, "end": 226.06, "text": "What's the problem in talking with each other, with the stakeholders?" }, { "start": 228.58, "end": 233.28, "text": "I would say, and Kenny can tell his experience with problems." }, { "start": 233.72, "end": 241.48, "text": "I think when I started out as a software developer, way back when, one of the problems you have" }, { "start": 241.52, "end": 244.38, "text": "is that you actually don't really talk to your stakeholders." }, { "start": 245.1, "end": 251.86, "text": "So you don't talk to the users or the people with the knowledge on which you're creating" }, { "start": 252.12, "end": 254.58, "text": "the software, either people that you're helping basically." }, { "start": 255.2, "end": 261.12, "text": "You know, it used to happen for me was that someone most often called a business analyst" }, { "start": 261.12, "end": 268.36, "text": "or something goes to talk to all the peoples, writes down their assumptions of what the" }, { "start": 268.14, "end": 274.3, "text": "software is supposed to do and then hand that over to the software development department." }, { "start": 275.1, "end": 280.8, "text": "And then we interpreted their assumptions and wrote that into code and pushed that into" }, { "start": 280.98, "end": 285.58, "text": "production. And then the feedback was like, well, this is not doing what we actually needed to do." }, { "start": 287.32, "end": 293.659, "text": "But thank you anyway. And so that was for me, I think, the biggest problem. And I went looking" }, { "start": 293.66, "end": 300.98, "text": "for ways to sort of, you know, make that handoff a bit smaller. And that's sort of how I ran" }, { "start": 301.16, "end": 306.66, "text": "into collaborative modeling. So that's how it happened for me. I don't know about you," }, { "start": 306.7, "end": 306.88, "text": "Kenneth." }, { "start": 309.06, "end": 315.24, "text": "Well, I started, I was very lucky, like, when I started my career, I was in a company and" }, { "start": 315.28, "end": 319.739, "text": "I didn't know anything. I came from embedded electronics, which was like, you need to model" }, { "start": 319.74, "end": 324.68, "text": "out everything you did already collaborative modeling with a, with a software system before" }, { "start": 324.68, "end": 332.04, "text": "you actually make the, the hardware, because you know, once it's hard, it's, you cannot," }, { "start": 332.72, "end": 334.88, "text": "well, you can change it, but not that easy." }, { "start": 335.0, "end": 340.3, "text": "So when I came into software, I was very lucky to come into a small team." }, { "start": 341.01, "end": 347.1, "text": "And like within a month, I got like this course in asset management, understanding what, what," }, { "start": 347.66, "end": 349.08, "text": "what my users were actually doing." }, { "start": 349.24, "end": 355.94, "text": "So we have a saying in Dutch, I'm not sure I cannot translate it with the pop label in" }, { "start": 356.04, "end": 361.3, "text": "Dakota, which means from the start, I got it correctly, in my opinion." }, { "start": 361.64, "end": 367.24, "text": "And you know, I started collaborating and eventually Scrum got introduced and which" }, { "start": 367.28, "end": 368.44, "text": "helped us at that point." }, { "start": 368.71, "end": 372.5, "text": "And after six years of working that I knew a lot about asset management." }, { "start": 372.72, "end": 378.44, "text": "I was a principal architect there within that team, within a department which grew to like" }, { "start": 378.36, "end": 386.28, "text": "two teams. And we already did like microservices, architecture, DevOps from day one I was publishing." }, { "start": 386.82, "end": 391.98, "text": "So, but the thing is, the reason I could publish it to production because I understood the" }, { "start": 392.06, "end": 397.54, "text": "business so I knew exactly when I was allowed to publish things or promote things to production." }, { "start": 398.3, "end": 403.539, "text": "Right. So for me, it was natural to do this. And then I got into consultancy and then I" }, { "start": 403.32, "end": 407.76, "text": "I got into other companies and I'm like, huh, what are you doing here?" }, { "start": 407.9, "end": 411.7, "text": "But, but, but I need to understand the business in order to help you." }, { "start": 411.8, "end": 415.84, "text": "And, and, and this is what exactly what Gien was, uh, telling." }, { "start": 416.42, "end": 420.0, "text": "And within my first six years, I got to experience how domain driven" }, { "start": 420.14, "end": 421.3, "text": "design actually worked for me." }, { "start": 421.98, "end": 424.44, "text": "And then I got into other companies where engineers didn't" }, { "start": 424.52, "end": 425.78, "text": "know anything about the domain." }, { "start": 425.88, "end": 428.38, "text": "And I saw that resembled in the code." }, { "start": 429.1, "end": 432.66, "text": "Uh, and for me, uh, they were using Scrum." }, { "start": 432.74, "end": 434.68, "text": "So I was like, okay, you're using Scrum, right?" }, { "start": 434.76, "end": 436.82, "text": "So you, you have the same understanding, but no." }, { "start": 437.46, "end": 441.74, "text": "Um, and, and for me, that was a problem that we got a lot of." }, { "start": 442.72, "end": 446.22, "text": "A telephone game from higher up from analysts, as he said." }, { "start": 446.36, "end": 450.56, "text": "And from there, my journey took on to understanding more and trying to teach" }, { "start": 450.62, "end": 454.16, "text": "this, uh, collaborative modeling the way I did it for six years into other" }, { "start": 454.38, "end": 459.099, "text": "companies, which I still, to this day, I find companies that lack, uh, every" }, { "start": 459.1, "end": 463.26, "text": "Every time I go in, go into a team and help them understand the business, and then they're" }, { "start": 463.32, "end": 465.06, "text": "like, \"Oh, you're like a business analyst.\"" }, { "start": 465.06, "end": 468.66, "text": "I say, \"Well, I do that, but I'm not.\"" }, { "start": 468.66, "end": 470.62, "text": "But okay, for me, it's normal." }, { "start": 470.94, "end": 474.96, "text": "And I felt it a bit weird that it's still not a normal thing to practice these days." }, { "start": 476.26, "end": 477.5, "text": "But I understand it." }, { "start": 477.84, "end": 483.12, "text": "When I do that, in my first six years, it was normal to talk to each other and was a" }, { "start": 483.32, "end": 483.84, "text": "good setting." }, { "start": 484.66, "end": 488.36, "text": "having these isolated departments, that clashed a lot." }, { "start": 488.48, "end": 491.74, "text": "And that took me into much more social silos." }, { "start": 492.32, "end": 496.08, "text": "Yeah, that's one view I always see." }, { "start": 496.36, "end": 500.72, "text": "When I got to my clients, which are mainly very big companies," }, { "start": 501.39, "end": 505.2, "text": "and when I get into the software development team," }, { "start": 505.43, "end": 507.58, "text": "and I see they're working at the code" }, { "start": 507.76, "end": 512.219, "text": "and implementing user stories and tasks from the board," }, { "start": 513.26, "end": 517.219, "text": "but they don't often know why they are doing this" }, { "start": 517.27, "end": 519.34, "text": "and what's behind it." }, { "start": 519.34, "end": 522.4, "text": "They are just implementing what they have on the board" }, { "start": 522.46, "end": 526.36, "text": "and don't understand the big picture or the business in case" }, { "start": 526.44, "end": 531.0, "text": "or don't even think about ops or security or something." }, { "start": 531.16, "end": 533.82, "text": "There's a very isolated field there." }, { "start": 533.9, "end": 538.84, "text": "And I think when we see Agile--" }, { "start": 538.84, "end": 541.32, "text": "- Yeah, there's a nice quote from Alberto that says," }, { "start": 541.98, "end": 543.92, "text": "They're working on tasks, you say, right?" }, { "start": 544.0, "end": 546.08, "text": "They're taking a task and they put it to production" }, { "start": 546.78, "end": 547.58, "text": "and they don't know." }, { "start": 547.98, "end": 550.4, "text": "And that don't know, that assumption," }, { "start": 550.72, "end": 551.74, "text": "that gets to production," }, { "start": 552.44, "end": 554.76, "text": "not necessarily what's in the story." }, { "start": 555.3, "end": 558.62, "text": "And that's the real problem here is that they take tickets" }, { "start": 558.72, "end": 560.86, "text": "but they don't know why they're doing the ticket." }, { "start": 561.06, "end": 562.3, "text": "And without that why," }, { "start": 562.8, "end": 564.4, "text": "they will just bring something to production" }, { "start": 564.54, "end": 567.44, "text": "that's an assumption of their understanding of the ticket." }, { "start": 567.58, "end": 568.76, "text": "And that's the core." }, { "start": 569.55, "end": 571.04, "text": "And sorry to interrupt you there," }, { "start": 571.06, "end": 573.6, "text": "but that popped into my mind with your question," }, { "start": 573.68, "end": 574.48, "text": "what's the real problem?" }, { "start": 574.86, "end": 577.92, "text": "For me, what you just said with the story on the board" }, { "start": 577.96, "end": 579.18, "text": "and they're just implemented it," }, { "start": 579.86, "end": 581.12, "text": "they're taking a lot of assumptions," }, { "start": 581.34, "end": 584.42, "text": "I can 100% assure you, and that gets to production." }, { "start": 585.46, "end": 587.82, "text": "- I think there is a nice parallel view" }, { "start": 588.2, "end": 590.42, "text": "before we come to your solution" }, { "start": 590.72, "end": 592.56, "text": "or your view on the solution," }, { "start": 593.3, "end": 595.34, "text": "is when I look at the testing department" }, { "start": 595.62, "end": 597.78, "text": "where I grew up, so as a tester," }, { "start": 598.54, "end": 603.62, "text": "There is the big case that we deal with a lot of assumptions there." }, { "start": 604.06, "end": 608.8, "text": "The assumptions from the developer and the business analyst who tries to translate something" }, { "start": 608.9, "end": 613.98, "text": "from the business into technique and the architecture and the tester has a lot of assumptions and" }, { "start": 614.08, "end": 619.52, "text": "needs to define what is the real thing meant that can be tested against." }, { "start": 620.42, "end": 628.48, "text": "So for a tester and for quality people, it's even more important to have a good understanding" }, { "start": 628.68, "end": 630.86, "text": "of what should the software do." }, { "start": 632.92, "end": 636.18, "text": "Yeah, I think it even goes a bit further than that." }, { "start": 637.01, "end": 644.52, "text": "I remember going to a company and we were talking about software strategies, how does" }, { "start": 644.52, "end": 647.04, "text": "your year look like, where are you going to focus everything on?" }, { "start": 647.22, "end": 650.4, "text": "And they were like, oh yeah, we're going to focus on getting rid of technical debt." }, { "start": 650.82, "end": 653.22, "text": "You were going to focus on refactoring here, here and here." }, { "start": 654.3, "end": 656.44, "text": "And then I went to talk to higher management." }, { "start": 656.54, "end": 658.0, "text": "I was like, hey, lovely company." }, { "start": 658.54, "end": 659.78, "text": "So what are your company goals?" }, { "start": 659.94, "end": 661.24, "text": "What's the business strategy here?" }, { "start": 661.66, "end": 665.16, "text": "And they were like, yeah, well, for the next two years, we really want to focus on our" }, { "start": 665.22, "end": 665.84, "text": "new products." }, { "start": 666.7, "end": 670.12, "text": "And I was like, hmm, because this is very interesting, because I go to their software" }, { "start": 670.3, "end": 673.8, "text": "departments and they're going to focus on improving the old products." }, { "start": 675.06, "end": 679.24, "text": "you go to the higher management and they're like, no, no, our focus is really on getting" }, { "start": 679.36, "end": 684.28, "text": "those two or three new products, getting those out there in the next few years." }, { "start": 684.94, "end": 690.9, "text": "So even on higher levels, there's discrepancies and there's no alignment and there's some" }, { "start": 691.0, "end": 697.02, "text": "sort of missing communication or miscommunication, which are two different things." }, { "start": 697.05, "end": 702.44, "text": "And so often if you go to IT departments, they don't know how the company functions," }, { "start": 702.6, "end": 703.72, "text": "They don't know the strategy." }, { "start": 704.32, "end": 709.2, "text": "They don't understand what they short-term and long-term are hoping to achieve, really." }, { "start": 709.98, "end": 717.1, "text": "And so all of that makes for software and software development and how it functions" }, { "start": 717.3, "end": 720.92, "text": "less than optimal for the company that they're actually doing it." }, { "start": 720.98, "end": 724.8, "text": "And so there's context missing there often as well." }, { "start": 725.02, "end": 726.26, "text": "So it's on all levels." }, { "start": 726.32, "end": 732.84, "text": "I feel that somehow people think you can just create software without understanding anything" }, { "start": 733.12, "end": 733.32, "text": "else." }, { "start": 733.7, "end": 735.04, "text": "I don't know how that happens." }, { "start": 736.48, "end": 737.1, "text": "But it's there." }, { "start": 738.34, "end": 739.1, "text": "Yeah, that's true." }, { "start": 740.0, "end": 748.84, "text": "So and you get the way to make it more better in our software project." }, { "start": 749.16, "end": 751.04, "text": "So what is your start with?" }, { "start": 751.8, "end": 758.3, "text": "What is your idea to do to make better understanding of the software and what is needed for the" }, { "start": 758.44, "end": 758.64, "text": "business?" }, { "start": 760.3, "end": 767.02, "text": "Yeah, so I mentioned collaborative modeling already, which is a very generic term." }, { "start": 767.09, "end": 770.2, "text": "And I don't know, do you know the definition by heart, Kenny?" }, { "start": 772.84, "end": 780.8, "text": "It's a complex leading decision making process that well, and that it's a visual process." }, { "start": 780.84, "end": 787.26, "text": "I know the, not by heart, but it's a visual process and you do it with your decision makers" }, { "start": 787.26, "end": 787.92, "text": "or stakeholders." }, { "start": 788.08, "end": 790.82, "text": "So there's a few main terms in there." }, { "start": 790.92, "end": 792.06, "text": "It's a conflict laden." }, { "start": 792.16, "end": 796.02, "text": "So it's usually you do it for complex decision making processes." }, { "start": 796.58, "end": 797.76, "text": "So not for easy stuff." }, { "start": 797.84, "end": 801.02, "text": "I mean, uh, yeah, I think that's it." }, { "start": 801.38, "end": 801.48, "text": "Right." }, { "start": 801.54, "end": 804.64, "text": "You're missing the, to create a shared understanding." }, { "start": 805.96, "end": 806.1, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 806.22, "end": 806.4, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 806.96, "end": 810.82, "text": "Which is the part that tries to tackle the miscommunication, mostly." }, { "start": 811.74, "end": 813.94, "text": "So yeah, it was a very boring definition." }, { "start": 816.16, "end": 818.76, "text": "But yes, as Kenny said, there are a couple of important things." }, { "start": 818.82, "end": 824.8, "text": "And the first thing is that we tried to get rid of the silos." }, { "start": 825.12, "end": 830.26, "text": "We tried to bring people into the same room or virtual room there." }, { "start": 830.48, "end": 833.04, "text": "And we tried to get them to talk to one another." }, { "start": 833.04, "end": 839.52, "text": "instead of having these documents that's written by a business analyst and then handed over and handed over and handed over." }, { "start": 839.68, "end": 846.84, "text": "So we try to sort of bring everyone there, including the business analyst, because they're good at their jobs," }, { "start": 846.92, "end": 853.0, "text": "they know how to ask good questions to the business and you want that in that room there very much," }, { "start": 853.2, "end": 859.5, "text": "together with the software developers, the architects, business analysts, anything involved." }, { "start": 859.52, "end": 865.26, "text": "We're going to all put you in that same room, and we're going to talk about what is actually" }, { "start": 865.52, "end": 865.64, "text": "happening." }, { "start": 866.56, "end": 867.6, "text": "What is important to you?" }, { "start": 868.44, "end": 869.32, "text": "What are the processes?" }, { "start": 869.7, "end": 870.54, "text": "What are the workflows?" }, { "start": 871.82, "end": 873.26, "text": "Tell me how you do your job." }, { "start": 873.4, "end": 877.94, "text": "Tell me which departments you have to communicate out there." }, { "start": 878.5, "end": 879.42, "text": "Tell us everything." }, { "start": 880.62, "end": 882.0, "text": "And we're going to make that visual." }, { "start": 883.32, "end": 888.48, "text": "You're going to write it down, because I don't know if you have ever been in a meeting, Richie," }, { "start": 889.08, "end": 897.26, "text": "things are just, they're just talking around and around and around. Yes, very annoying." }, { "start": 897.94, "end": 903.28, "text": "So we try to make it visual because then you focus the conversation on what's actually" }, { "start": 903.38, "end": 909.2, "text": "there, what's in front of you. So we try to visualize as much as possible. And we do that" }, { "start": 909.26, "end": 915.48, "text": "in a very simple way. I'm going to let Kenny tell you how we do that, so I don't gobble" }, { "start": 915.48, "end": 916.18, "text": "up all the time." }, { "start": 918.5, "end": 918.6, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 919.18, "end": 919.28, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 919.44, "end": 925.2, "text": "So it's, it's including all the, all the stakeholders, by the way, we say stakeholders, but that" }, { "start": 925.28, "end": 931.5, "text": "can also be, uh, the, uh, developers or engineers or testers or analysts in the team, right?" }, { "start": 931.58, "end": 933.52, "text": "They're also stakeholders in a way." }, { "start": 934.04, "end": 939.12, "text": "So the way the, the way to describe collaborative modeling or, or the tools you use, it's that" }, { "start": 939.16, "end": 944.5, "text": "it should be easy to use a well common one in a domain driven design is event storming" }, { "start": 944.5, "end": 950.96, "text": "or domain storytelling. These are two of the most common used and they're both very simple." }, { "start": 951.68, "end": 957.1, "text": "Event Storming in itself is an orange sticky and it's a domain event. So something that's relevant" }, { "start": 957.66, "end": 963.0, "text": "for your stakeholders. So it doesn't concern any databases or, but it does concern if you're in a" }, { "start": 963.4, "end": 974.48, "text": "cinema, which we write about, it's like a place got reserved, right? So it's relevant for the" }, { "start": 974.48, "end": 981.14, "text": "can go further into that right okay when when is it not possible to reserve a place right and then" }, { "start": 981.14, "end": 987.02, "text": "you come into these constraints so you're adding all these things very natural instead of if you" }, { "start": 987.22, "end": 993.28, "text": "look at tools like uml which are still great or or like archimede which i used in the past or" }, { "start": 993.68, "end": 1004.46, "text": "other modeling tools they're very constrictive right they have these certain dialect that you" }, { "start": 1004.46, "end": 1007.08, "text": "I don't from the heart know what that means." }, { "start": 1007.56, "end": 1008.58, "text": "And you don't want that." }, { "start": 1008.72, "end": 1011.08, "text": "If we're talking about knowledge crunching," }, { "start": 1011.08, "end": 1012.44, "text": "as we call it, right?" }, { "start": 1012.68, "end": 1015.34, "text": "Understanding business, we want information" }, { "start": 1015.56, "end": 1020.2, "text": "and knowledge to flow freely so that everyone can actually," }, { "start": 1020.78, "end": 1023.86, "text": "and the metaphor is what like Gumbeldore does" }, { "start": 1023.98, "end": 1025.439, "text": "with his brain, right?" }, { "start": 1025.52, "end": 1028.36, "text": "Try to get everything out of the brain and into that pool." }, { "start": 1028.699, "end": 1031.12, "text": "The pool is the modeling space, right?" }, { "start": 1031.66, "end": 1035.04, "text": "And you want to make the best effort" }, { "start": 1035.5, "end": 1039.339, "text": "that everyone could do that freely without being blocked." }, { "start": 1039.52, "end": 1041.02, "text": "And that's the challenge, right?" }, { "start": 1041.06, "end": 1042.38, "text": "The first challenge is the tool." }, { "start": 1042.72, "end": 1044.199, "text": "So we try to create simple." }, { "start": 1044.319, "end": 1045.819, "text": "So we try to use simple tools." }, { "start": 1046.76, "end": 1050.06, "text": "And there's, these are the domain driven design tools," }, { "start": 1050.46, "end": 1052.1, "text": "but there was already use story mapping," }, { "start": 1052.1, "end": 1053.54, "text": "which is also a great tool" }, { "start": 1055.14, "end": 1056.5, "text": "in the product management space." }, { "start": 1056.78, "end": 1059.68, "text": "You've got example mapping in the testing," }, { "start": 1059.92, "end": 1067.88, "text": "more testing space. I say testing space, but I love to use it as a engineer as well. I" }, { "start": 1068.0, "end": 1075.8, "text": "think it's not confined to just one role like business model canvas. Usually product management" }, { "start": 1075.92, "end": 1080.82, "text": "take the business model canvas, but I had a friend of mine who used it with the engineering" }, { "start": 1080.98, "end": 1088.28, "text": "team and like he said with management and then compared them and there was so much new" }, { "start": 1088.28, "end": 1092.58, "text": "things popping up that the management didn't know that there was this API that they can" }, { "start": 1092.64, "end": 1097.14, "text": "use as a new value stream right so but the business model canvas is also relatively easy" }, { "start": 1097.5, "end": 1099.04, "text": "if you know your business of course." }, { "start": 1100.4, "end": 1107.26, "text": "So it needs to be simple it needs to be very easy to work with it and I think well did" }, { "start": 1107.26, "end": 1107.8, "text": "I miss anything." }, { "start": 1109.139, "end": 1117.64, "text": "No that's that's that's correct and any for any visual tool can become a modeling tool" }, { "start": 1117.64, "end": 1120.98, "text": "as Kenny said, it's just about, you know, making sure you don't have to do a" }, { "start": 1121.0, "end": 1124.4, "text": "lecture for two hours to make them understand how it works before you start" }, { "start": 1124.58, "end": 1129.78, "text": "using it. Most of it is post-its or something as simple as that, or drawing" }, { "start": 1129.9, "end": 1138.44, "text": "some figures. So yeah, that's the visual tool that we use. And as I said, we do" }, { "start": 1138.54, "end": 1147.62, "text": "that to create that shared understanding, be the Dumbledore. And" }, { "start": 1147.62, "end": 1153.24, "text": "is all about, then we can start and how everything is connected, because that's the most important" }, { "start": 1153.36, "end": 1159.06, "text": "thing there as well. Everything is connected in the real world. But in software, you have to," }, { "start": 1159.3, "end": 1166.66, "text": "you know, chop this up for different reasons. We have the ability tags, like maintainability and" }, { "start": 1166.7, "end": 1172.26, "text": "flexibility and scalability and all that kind of stuff is we need to take things into consideration" }, { "start": 1172.26, "end": 1178.78, "text": "consideration when you're creating a software system. And once we understand, well, that" }, { "start": 1178.96, "end": 1185.0, "text": "department has this sort of flow, but other departments sort of tap into that, or they have" }, { "start": 1185.0, "end": 1190.1, "text": "to do it a bit different, and their constraints are a bit different. Do they have different business" }, { "start": 1190.32, "end": 1197.6, "text": "rules? What are the exceptions here? How often do these exceptions actually happen? Or they're worth" }, { "start": 1197.46, "end": 1205.18, "text": "putting in the software or can we continue to do that manually? Which engineers often react to very" }, { "start": 1205.4, "end": 1210.7, "text": "badly when I say that. But it's like, if this is happening once a year, why would I put that" }, { "start": 1210.92, "end": 1217.02, "text": "complexity in my software system? Let's just keep that manual. It's that's still okay to do," }, { "start": 1217.95, "end": 1227.02, "text": "even in 2025. Is it worth putting in a software system? How is this going to evolve over time?" }, { "start": 1227.02, "end": 1232.82, "text": "As I said, business model canvas is mostly to understand the company and the goals and" }, { "start": 1232.88, "end": 1239.84, "text": "how they get there and how do they see that change and will the software system be able" }, { "start": 1239.84, "end": 1241.34, "text": "to do that with them." }, { "start": 1242.98, "end": 1248.24, "text": "So then you have to try to find good boundaries that actually allow you to do that." }, { "start": 1249.96, "end": 1254.08, "text": "But the fact is that you have a better view of how things are connected." }, { "start": 1254.3, "end": 1257.34, "text": "And so if I have to say, okay, we'll make a cut there," }, { "start": 1257.44, "end": 1258.78, "text": "it will make this a microservice," }, { "start": 1259.06, "end": 1260.16, "text": "we'll create a boundary here." }, { "start": 1260.68, "end": 1264.5, "text": "I understand that I'm making an artificial cut," }, { "start": 1265.14, "end": 1267.84, "text": "but the process in reality actually continues." }, { "start": 1268.7, "end": 1272.16, "text": "So I will have communication between microservices there," }, { "start": 1272.26, "end": 1274.5, "text": "'cause there's no other way if I make that cut." }, { "start": 1275.0, "end": 1276.44, "text": "And then I can also can start asking," }, { "start": 1276.6, "end": 1279.34, "text": "okay, but what if I make it slightly different?" }, { "start": 1279.58, "end": 1282.98, "text": "How would that change the communication in the microservice," }, { "start": 1283.26, "end": 1284.46, "text": "between the microsurface." }, { "start": 1284.72, "end": 1289.6, "text": "So that's the point where we start to do the design of it." }, { "start": 1289.86, "end": 1292.16, "text": "So first we try to understand as much as possible" }, { "start": 1292.44, "end": 1295.2, "text": "and then we see, okay, what are now good boundaries?" }, { "start": 1295.9, "end": 1297.02, "text": "Where are we going to cut?" }, { "start": 1297.16, "end": 1300.14, "text": "And how does that influence the communication" }, { "start": 1300.34, "end": 1303.14, "text": "that needs to happen between all these boundaries" }, { "start": 1303.3, "end": 1304.18, "text": "that we're setting up?" }, { "start": 1305.18, "end": 1308.44, "text": "Because we still need the business to have a flow" }, { "start": 1308.56, "end": 1312.14, "text": "that's actually as close as possible" }, { "start": 1312.14, "end": 1315.32, "text": "to what they actually do on a day-to-day basis there." }, { "start": 1317.52, "end": 1320.18, "text": "- Or to add, it might change the flow," }, { "start": 1320.72, "end": 1322.48, "text": "but since you have all the relevant stakeholders," }, { "start": 1323.38, "end": 1328.1, "text": "as you can imagine, in classic IT," }, { "start": 1329.96, "end": 1332.08, "text": "they come with requirements, here's my process," }, { "start": 1332.14, "end": 1333.7, "text": "and then an analyst comes with the process" }, { "start": 1333.74, "end": 1334.64, "text": "and just build it in." }, { "start": 1335.1, "end": 1339.42, "text": "The thing is, we as engineers and testers and whatever," }, { "start": 1339.86, "end": 1343.12, "text": "We know, oh, but this can be a lot way smarter, right?" }, { "start": 1343.16, "end": 1345.24, "text": "If we use this technology with this," }, { "start": 1345.24, "end": 1346.86, "text": "we can optimize this process." }, { "start": 1347.2, "end": 1349.68, "text": "And usually that dual learning," }, { "start": 1350.24, "end": 1351.0, "text": "that's what we call it, right?" }, { "start": 1351.02, "end": 1351.98, "text": "It's both sides." }, { "start": 1352.42, "end": 1354.96, "text": "That doesn't happen in a classic company that's top down" }, { "start": 1355.12, "end": 1357.74, "text": "because requirements are dumped on the team" }, { "start": 1357.74, "end": 1358.84, "text": "and they should implement it." }, { "start": 1358.92, "end": 1362.98, "text": "But the team, and there's this very good example" }, { "start": 1363.14, "end": 1366.62, "text": "from an engineer at Amazon that at one point said," }, { "start": 1366.98, "end": 1371.96, "text": "You know, I see what people bought in the data and I also see what they also bought." }, { "start": 1372.1, "end": 1377.06, "text": "So maybe after someone bought that product, I can show that same person what other people" }, { "start": 1377.26, "end": 1377.38, "text": "bought." }, { "start": 1377.86, "end": 1379.96, "text": "The analysts were like, stupid idea." }, { "start": 1380.26, "end": 1381.0, "text": "We're not going to do it." }, { "start": 1382.24, "end": 1383.26, "text": "What, what did he do?" }, { "start": 1383.52, "end": 1385.78, "text": "He still implemented it." }, { "start": 1385.88, "end": 1390.24, "text": "And it's now a function in every, it's now an upselling function in everything." }, { "start": 1390.6, "end": 1391.66, "text": "So that you can see, right." }, { "start": 1392.5, "end": 1394.28, "text": "That's the power of collaborative software design." }, { "start": 1394.4, "end": 1398.72, "text": "You design it together and you need to design it together because each impact each other." }, { "start": 1399.48, "end": 1409.42, "text": "When we come together to make this visual modeling with all the stakeholders, how do" }, { "start": 1409.46, "end": 1411.5, "text": "I get the people in there?" }, { "start": 1411.72, "end": 1416.92, "text": "Because there are some engineers who say, I don't care what business say, I want to" }, { "start": 1416.94, "end": 1424.76, "text": "to just to code my code and the business guys say, I don't want to get in contact with the" }, { "start": 1424.86, "end": 1428.38, "text": "IT staff because they don't understand really what I what I'm doing." }, { "start": 1428.38, "end": 1430.48, "text": "They have a lot of business every day." }, { "start": 1430.76, "end": 1433.82, "text": "How what are your arguments to put them together in a room?" }, { "start": 1435.88, "end": 1436.88, "text": "I have a lot." }, { "start": 1438.8, "end": 1440.46, "text": "I mostly just do it at gunpoint." }, { "start": 1443.14, "end": 1446.52, "text": "So this is exactly why we wrote this book." }, { "start": 1447.12, "end": 1452.5, "text": "So a first part of this book is about the need for collaborative modeling, but there's" }, { "start": 1452.58, "end": 1456.7, "text": "tons of books like event storming, domain storytelling, user story mapping that goes" }, { "start": 1456.74, "end": 1458.56, "text": "into these specific tools and collaborative modeling." }, { "start": 1459.42, "end": 1462.72, "text": "Our book specifically also goes into these social challenges." }, { "start": 1463.08, "end": 1466.4, "text": "And today, Aveline, the third author, isn't here." }, { "start": 1466.84, "end": 1470.64, "text": "She also has a huge background in social science." }, { "start": 1472.06, "end": 1477.9, "text": "these combo of us three working together on this was exactly about that point." }, { "start": 1478.12, "end": 1483.48, "text": "Right? Heen and me know a lot more about software engineering and architecture" }, { "start": 1484.34, "end": 1490.06, "text": "and we combined that knowledge into this book to answer these questions because people love" }, { "start": 1490.2, "end": 1495.86, "text": "event storming usually. They say, \"I've been to this conference and I've done some event" }, { "start": 1495.82, "end": 1497.92, "text": "storming and I want to do this." }, { "start": 1498.14, "end": 1501.9, "text": "And this was me coming from that six years environment, right." }, { "start": 1501.96, "end": 1503.66, "text": "Where it was natural to do." }, { "start": 1504.08, "end": 1509.66, "text": "And then coming into my first, uh, job, uh, as consultant came in, oh, we're" }, { "start": 1509.66, "end": 1510.84, "text": "going to do some event storming." }, { "start": 1510.92, "end": 1512.4, "text": "So I got, I just, I just." }, { "start": 1512.92, "end": 1513.04, "text": "Right." }, { "start": 1513.46, "end": 1515.3, "text": "Send invites like, ah, join me." }, { "start": 1515.3, "end": 1520.82, "text": "And then like 20, like five people didn't show up, started out event" }, { "start": 1520.9, "end": 1522.18, "text": "storming and it was a total mess." }, { "start": 1522.26, "end": 1523.34, "text": "It was a total disaster." }, { "start": 1523.82, "end": 1530.24, "text": "came home almost crying, like, what is this? I thought I had it. Like, seriously, I have a wife" }, { "start": 1530.34, "end": 1535.08, "text": "that also has a background in social science. And I'm like, what happened here? And she says, well," }, { "start": 1535.74, "end": 1541.32, "text": "here's some theory and some books and some knowledge. And that put me on the path also" }, { "start": 1541.32, "end": 1547.739, "text": "on the social science part. So to get people in a room, you first want to create a shared" }, { "start": 1548.38, "end": 1555.92, "text": "need for it. So what if it depends on the it depends on what they're dealing with. So if" }, { "start": 1556.42, "end": 1561.56, "text": "if there's not a lot of collaboration going on going in and putting them into room might not" }, { "start": 1561.56, "end": 1566.68, "text": "be the smartest thing because people will see it as a self-fulfilling prophecy right they say oh I" }, { "start": 1566.68, "end": 1573.099, "text": "haven't learned anything at the end well then so what we usually try to do in that situation we" }, { "start": 1573.1, "end": 1579.4, "text": "We try to do interviews with people and try to understand what are the problems they're" }, { "start": 1579.76, "end": 1586.92, "text": "facing and move them towards, \"Oh, but maybe it's smart to do X,\" right?" }, { "start": 1588.26, "end": 1590.16, "text": "And then move them into a collaborative modeling session." }, { "start": 1590.58, "end": 1592.32, "text": "That's option one, having interviews." }, { "start": 1593.04, "end": 1599.76, "text": "Option two might be what we call in the book, guerrilla modeling, meaning I've been in a" }, { "start": 1599.9, "end": 1600.8, "text": "company that did the same." }, { "start": 1601.18, "end": 1607.58, "text": "I was actually there to help the testers and they did acceptance testing over the entire" }, { "start": 1607.66, "end": 1611.42, "text": "landscape, but nobody had a clear picture of what the landscape looks like." }, { "start": 1611.76, "end": 1617.72, "text": "And every time I talked to a different team, they didn't want to come into one meeting." }, { "start": 1618.18, "end": 1623.0, "text": "So back then before Corona, I just went in the middle of the coffee corner, rolled out" }, { "start": 1623.06, "end": 1625.94, "text": "my paper roll and just started modeling their landscape." }, { "start": 1626.02, "end": 1630.059, "text": "And then people passed by and they saw it and, \"Oh, but Kenny, that's wrong.\"" }, { "start": 1630.06, "end": 1631.32, "text": "Oh, okay, can you tell me?" }, { "start": 1631.44, "end": 1633.5, "text": "So once you're wrong, people will come." }, { "start": 1633.6, "end": 1636.38, "text": "So that's a different, that's two different tips." }, { "start": 1637.14, "end": 1640.16, "text": "A third one is doing it secretly." }, { "start": 1640.82, "end": 1642.14, "text": "So you're doing it for yourself." }, { "start": 1642.34, "end": 1643.9, "text": "Start off with doing it for yourself." }, { "start": 1644.08, "end": 1645.34, "text": "You get a better understanding." }, { "start": 1645.7, "end": 1647.42, "text": "You will ask more powerful questions." }, { "start": 1648.12, "end": 1649.48, "text": "And then eventually people will wonder," }, { "start": 1649.58, "end": 1652.98, "text": "hmm, how are you asking these powerful questions?" }, { "start": 1653.32, "end": 1654.44, "text": "Well, let me show you." }, { "start": 1655.0, "end": 1658.78, "text": "So these are three heuristics that I use." }, { "start": 1659.26, "end": 1660.6, "text": "I'm not sure if you have." }, { "start": 1663.66, "end": 1665.3, "text": "- I always say like find some," }, { "start": 1666.8, "end": 1669.06, "text": "not really sponsors, but sponsors in a way," }, { "start": 1669.28, "end": 1672.4, "text": "find some people who are experiencing" }, { "start": 1673.26, "end": 1675.42, "text": "the same problems that you are," }, { "start": 1675.58, "end": 1677.12, "text": "whether you're a software developer," }, { "start": 1678.46, "end": 1681.06, "text": "or a tester, or anything else." }, { "start": 1681.68, "end": 1684.28, "text": "There's a pain there, right?" }, { "start": 1684.36, "end": 1685.7, "text": "You feel something like," }, { "start": 1686.02, "end": 1688.44, "text": "I just don't understand what they want," }, { "start": 1688.5, "end": 1691.1, "text": "and I create software and I have to change it all the time." }, { "start": 1691.54, "end": 1692.96, "text": "And I really would like to stop." }, { "start": 1694.14, "end": 1696.06, "text": "Yeah, I would like to sort of get it a bit better" }, { "start": 1696.14, "end": 1696.96, "text": "at the first try." }, { "start": 1698.94, "end": 1702.06, "text": "And there are other software developers experiencing that." }, { "start": 1702.94, "end": 1704.72, "text": "And there are people on the business side" }, { "start": 1704.74, "end": 1710.46, "text": "who are genuinely frustrated that we ask for something" }, { "start": 1710.64, "end": 1711.74, "text": "and it's not what we want." }, { "start": 1711.84, "end": 1713.64, "text": "So try to find those people" }, { "start": 1714.11, "end": 1716.56, "text": "who are open to trying out new things," }, { "start": 1716.96, "end": 1720.08, "text": "create a small group and say, look, I want to try something." }, { "start": 1721.57, "end": 1722.7, "text": "I want to see if it works." }, { "start": 1722.7, "end": 1725.96, "text": "I just don't want to do this with 10 or 15 people" }, { "start": 1726.44, "end": 1727.8, "text": "when I haven't practiced yet." }, { "start": 1728.78, "end": 1729.78, "text": "Would you help me with it?" }, { "start": 1729.86, "end": 1733.28, "text": "And even just to having with those two or three people" }, { "start": 1733.28, "end": 1736.56, "text": "and start modeling together and experimenting" }, { "start": 1736.82, "end": 1741.18, "text": "with how you could do that, they will notice that, hey," }, { "start": 1742.34, "end": 1743.72, "text": "this is actually really great." }, { "start": 1743.86, "end": 1745.02, "text": "Thank you for inviting us." }, { "start": 1745.04, "end": 1746.44, "text": "and they will start advocating it." }, { "start": 1747.97, "end": 1750.76, "text": "And that way, when someone from the business says," }, { "start": 1750.82, "end": 1752.86, "text": "you know, I tried this out and it actually really works," }, { "start": 1752.88, "end": 1755.2, "text": "people from the business will be less reluctant" }, { "start": 1756.08, "end": 1757.08, "text": "to try it out as well." }, { "start": 1757.64, "end": 1758.86, "text": "If you do it with a tester," }, { "start": 1758.97, "end": 1760.36, "text": "you will have the same experience." }, { "start": 1760.78, "end": 1764.18, "text": "So once people experience it in general," }, { "start": 1764.32, "end": 1766.22, "text": "they're very happy about it." }, { "start": 1767.16, "end": 1770.52, "text": "It's just that they're reluctant to do that." }, { "start": 1772.72, "end": 1773.16, "text": "So yeah." }, { "start": 1773.46, "end": 1778.18, "text": "Yes, very, very specific tips. That's great for the people out there, I think." }, { "start": 1779.34, "end": 1787.54, "text": "And when we have such a collaborative session, what is more the outcome?" }, { "start": 1787.54, "end": 1791.86, "text": "Is it the visual thing we have at the end of the session?" }, { "start": 1792.34, "end": 1798.02, "text": "Or do you think it's more important just to communicate with the other guys there?" }, { "start": 1798.82, "end": 1803.0, "text": "I would say it's the shared understanding, the knowledge sharing that has happened." }, { "start": 1804.9, "end": 1807.96, "text": "So the outcome is that you have a lot of post-its on the wall." }, { "start": 1810.28, "end": 1815.62, "text": "But one of our mottos is that you should throw them away. It's about getting to that shared" }, { "start": 1815.78, "end": 1822.28, "text": "understanding about being better informed on how things work, understanding the business rules" }, { "start": 1822.5, "end": 1828.179, "text": "better, understanding, you know, 80% of the time this will need to happen and then 15% of the time" }, { "start": 1828.18, "end": 1834.0, "text": "we actually will have to do that in a situation. So it's the knowledge you gain from it. But we do" }, { "start": 1834.16, "end": 1841.14, "text": "say that we have a template in the book on how you can prep your first session, because you do" }, { "start": 1841.23, "end": 1846.14, "text": "need to communicate this very well to other people. You want to sit down and think, okay," }, { "start": 1846.25, "end": 1853.059, "text": "what do I want to achieve? What are my goals? Which process or which part of my software system" }, { "start": 1853.06, "end": 1859.76, "text": "do I no longer understand? So I want to create a group of people and I want to see from a business" }, { "start": 1860.02, "end": 1868.42, "text": "perspective, how is this supposed to work exactly? So that's a goal you can set up. So make sure" }, { "start": 1868.5, "end": 1874.18, "text": "that you're well prepared and that you have a clear goal in mind and that you inform everyone" }, { "start": 1874.28, "end": 1879.62, "text": "of hey, this is what we're going to try to do. People like to be prepared. Walking into a meeting" }, { "start": 1879.62, "end": 1884.42, "text": "and having no idea what's going to happen. I don't know about you, but that kind of freaks me out." }, { "start": 1886.26, "end": 1890.76, "text": "So give them the idea, tell them everything, right? This is what's going to happen," }, { "start": 1890.86, "end": 1894.82, "text": "this is what we're going to do, this is what you need to bring your brain most of the time." }, { "start": 1896.56, "end": 1901.78, "text": "Yeah, but just make sure they're in as informed as possible. And this is what I hope to achieve" }, { "start": 1902.24, "end": 1906.519, "text": "in with this. And so everyone is then at the same page where you're actually having the session and" }, { "start": 1906.42, "end": 1907.36, "text": "and why you're in that room." }, { "start": 1908.08, "end": 1908.86, "text": "And that helps a lot." }, { "start": 1910.84, "end": 1913.48, "text": "- When I look at the organization" }, { "start": 1913.62, "end": 1915.54, "text": "of such a collaboration session," }, { "start": 1915.9, "end": 1918.54, "text": "there are two questions which come to my mind." }, { "start": 1918.66, "end": 1922.28, "text": "It's the first, how long is typically such a session?" }, { "start": 1922.52, "end": 1925.26, "text": "How long can we be productive on such a topic?" }, { "start": 1925.68, "end": 1930.4, "text": "And what is a good frame to repeat such a session?" }, { "start": 1930.56, "end": 1932.899, "text": "Or is it a one-time show" }, { "start": 1932.9, "end": 1935.94, "text": "And then we are all in our business again." }, { "start": 1937.739, "end": 1941.36, "text": "- Yeah, so sorry to say this," }, { "start": 1941.48, "end": 1943.2, "text": "it depends on what the outcome is." }, { "start": 1943.74, "end": 1945.92, "text": "So we have, but I can give you a few examples." }, { "start": 1946.22, "end": 1948.2, "text": "So there's one session" }, { "start": 1948.64, "end": 1950.32, "text": "that's called big picture event storming." }, { "start": 1950.84, "end": 1952.96, "text": "The outcome is there massive learning," }, { "start": 1953.999, "end": 1956.62, "text": "understanding the bigger picture of your company." }, { "start": 1956.7, "end": 1958.86, "text": "So what's this company doing?" }, { "start": 1958.96, "end": 1960.28, "text": "Where are the software systems?" }, { "start": 1960.82, "end": 1963.24, "text": "And that's massive learning, breaking the silos," }, { "start": 1964.26, "end": 1968.02, "text": "knowing what's the most evident thing to work on now, right?" }, { "start": 1968.1, "end": 1969.38, "text": "Because we can vote at the end." }, { "start": 1970.28, "end": 1972.38, "text": "And especially as a consultant, I use this." }, { "start": 1972.38, "end": 1974.0, "text": "If someone brings me in for a project" }, { "start": 1974.04, "end": 1975.54, "text": "and I do a big picture event storming," }, { "start": 1975.91, "end": 1977.32, "text": "and they say, well, you know," }, { "start": 1977.38, "end": 1978.76, "text": "on the right side is the problem." }, { "start": 1979.28, "end": 1981.08, "text": "And then they hired me for the left side." }, { "start": 1981.12, "end": 1982.18, "text": "I'm not doing the left side" }, { "start": 1982.25, "end": 1984.62, "text": "because it's not like the most prominent thing" }, { "start": 1984.7, "end": 1985.72, "text": "that everyone wants to work on." }, { "start": 1985.73, "end": 1987.76, "text": "So that's a big picture event storming, it takes a day." }, { "start": 1988.3, "end": 1992.42, "text": "From that day, I could also distill and decompose further." }, { "start": 1992.64, "end": 1997.72, "text": "So I can extend that for a couple of days, but this is what we call a design" }, { "start": 1998.04, "end": 2000.58, "text": "start, or there's many words for these workshops." }, { "start": 2001.24, "end": 2003.2, "text": "However, you can also make it small." }, { "start": 2003.48, "end": 2007.48, "text": "So a good friend of ours, Andrea McNorski, created this thing called," }, { "start": 2007.92, "end": 2010.18, "text": "um, who now I forget it." }, { "start": 2011.88, "end": 2013.1, "text": "I thank you." }, { "start": 2013.2, "end": 2013.42, "text": "Heen." }, { "start": 2013.76, "end": 2013.92, "text": "Wow." }, { "start": 2014.04, "end": 2014.62, "text": "I forgot that." }, { "start": 2015.1, "end": 2015.94, "text": "And what's he did." }, { "start": 2015.98, "end": 2020.2, "text": "And I've did this in the past and that takes one hour, maybe two every three," }, { "start": 2020.44, "end": 2020.88, "text": "four weeks." }, { "start": 2021.7, "end": 2025.72, "text": "Um, you get everyone from the team into the room and you ask them, okay, what" }, { "start": 2025.77, "end": 2026.92, "text": "does the architecture look like?" }, { "start": 2027.02, "end": 2028.1, "text": "Can you visualize it for me?" }, { "start": 2028.12, "end": 2031.8, "text": "And you can do that with C4 modeling, for instance, if, if the people are known" }, { "start": 2031.88, "end": 2035.1, "text": "this first time I did it, it was just stickies and boxes." }, { "start": 2035.94, "end": 2037.92, "text": "And that took one and a half, two hours." }, { "start": 2038.58, "end": 2040.72, "text": "So it was half hour, everyone for themselves." }, { "start": 2040.92, "end": 2044.339, "text": "And then we tried to merge all these things and we, and we literally merged" }, { "start": 2044.38, "end": 2046.88, "text": "their view of how the architecture looks." }, { "start": 2047.54, "end": 2049.12, "text": "One and a half to two hours." }, { "start": 2049.54, "end": 2052.06, "text": "Now, if you take things like example mapping, even," }, { "start": 2053.6, "end": 2055.5, "text": "typically from an example mapping point of view," }, { "start": 2055.5, "end": 2058.48, "text": "you take something from the backlog" }, { "start": 2059.34, "end": 2061.7, "text": "and you want to do that for 20 minutes," }, { "start": 2062.139, "end": 2064.12, "text": "because if it's not clear within 20 minutes" }, { "start": 2064.12, "end": 2065.52, "text": "what the acceptance criteria are," }, { "start": 2065.83, "end": 2066.94, "text": "you need to discover more." }, { "start": 2067.06, "end": 2069.56, "text": "So after 20 minutes of doing that," }, { "start": 2070.06, "end": 2071.78, "text": "okay, what's clear, what's not clear," }, { "start": 2071.94, "end": 2072.82, "text": "what needs to be discovered?" }, { "start": 2073.22, "end": 2076.879, "text": "So again, it can be like a couple of days in a row," }, { "start": 2077.379, "end": 2082.56, "text": "or it can be just every so often that in a retrospective," }, { "start": 2083.32, "end": 2086.159, "text": "sorry, refinement, I don't do Scrum anymore that much." }, { "start": 2086.22, "end": 2088.879, "text": "So I'm kind of confused for a reason," }, { "start": 2089.54, "end": 2092.46, "text": "because I think this would be a lot better" }, { "start": 2092.48, "end": 2094.44, "text": "if you collaborate more often," }, { "start": 2095.06, "end": 2096.48, "text": "coming back to the previous question," }, { "start": 2096.94, "end": 2098.76, "text": "I might not need documentation," }, { "start": 2098.8, "end": 2101.04, "text": "I can go straight away code that out." }, { "start": 2101.04, "end": 2102.42, "text": "And I've seen teams do this, right?" }, { "start": 2102.42, "end": 2105.92, "text": "They collaborate and then they code, come back for feedback," }, { "start": 2106.38, "end": 2110.08, "text": "collaborate some more code, and they don't require all these" }, { "start": 2110.74, "end": 2112.04, "text": "scrum things anymore." }, { "start": 2112.86, "end": 2114.84, "text": "Retrospective yes, but they didn't do refinements." }, { "start": 2115.3, "end": 2119.44, "text": "So that's why I'm a bit confused with the terms, but you could do" }, { "start": 2119.52, "end": 2120.58, "text": "that if you're still doing this." }, { "start": 2120.68, "end": 2126.5, "text": "I wouldn't go from scrum all to what I just say, just taking steps, take" }, { "start": 2126.58, "end": 2131.46, "text": "your refinement and try to do some example mapping to see, Hey, does this" }, { "start": 2131.42, "end": 2135.66, "text": "fit, invite a stakeholder that put it on the backlog, do some example mapping." }, { "start": 2135.92, "end": 2139.7, "text": "The example mapping is the easiest one of them all in my opinion, because all you need" }, { "start": 2139.7, "end": 2142.42, "text": "to ask is, can you give me a specific example?" }, { "start": 2142.74, "end": 2143.9, "text": "And that takes 20 minutes." }, { "start": 2144.7, "end": 2145.26, "text": "Try it out." }, { "start": 2145.72, "end": 2146.46, "text": "20 minutes last." }, { "start": 2147.44, "end": 2148.34, "text": "See where that gets you." }, { "start": 2149.24, "end": 2149.38, "text": "Great." }, { "start": 2149.46, "end": 2150.4, "text": "I hope that helped." }, { "start": 2150.52, "end": 2152.18, "text": "Very, very great insight." }, { "start": 2152.38, "end": 2159.26, "text": "And I liked the thought about doing the collaboration on one side and then going directly and building" }, { "start": 2159.26, "end": 2165.44, "text": "the stuff and then going back to collaborating because a lot of steps we will build between" }, { "start": 2165.7, "end": 2173.34, "text": "are always transfers from knowledge to another ticket, to another ticket, to another view" }, { "start": 2173.48, "end": 2174.1, "text": "and so on." }, { "start": 2174.2, "end": 2179.1, "text": "And there's a lot of things we can lose between these two steps." }, { "start": 2179.28, "end": 2189.24, "text": "So it's a very, very pragmatic way to do it and to work in agile like I understand it" }, { "start": 2189.24, "end": 2190.44, "text": "was thought maybe." }, { "start": 2190.74, "end": 2190.9, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 2191.42, "end": 2191.9, "text": "Yes." }, { "start": 2192.8, "end": 2198.1, "text": "So you say as was thought, we're also domain-driven design practitioners." }, { "start": 2199.08, "end": 2203.12, "text": "There was already Agile when Eric Evans wrote the book, but he was very clear." }, { "start": 2203.44, "end": 2206.44, "text": "He wants to have a continuous conversation with stakeholders." }, { "start": 2207.22, "end": 2211.82, "text": "And now I feel like the conversations are in a refinement or in a demo, right?" }, { "start": 2211.98, "end": 2215.06, "text": "But he wants, and that's how I used to do it for six years." }, { "start": 2215.44, "end": 2218.4, "text": "I could just walk to my domain experts or stakeholders" }, { "start": 2218.45, "end": 2220.48, "text": "to have that continuous conversation," }, { "start": 2221.66, "end": 2222.58, "text": "that feedback loop." }, { "start": 2222.72, "end": 2225.76, "text": "And in my opinion, yes, that is the essence of agile" }, { "start": 2225.78, "end": 2228.3, "text": "because you constantly want to inspect and adapt," }, { "start": 2228.82, "end": 2232.18, "text": "collaborate something, try to design something," }, { "start": 2232.56, "end": 2234.36, "text": "implement it, see what it does," }, { "start": 2234.7, "end": 2235.94, "text": "come back with that feedback" }, { "start": 2236.34, "end": 2238.08, "text": "and have that continuous conversation" }, { "start": 2238.36, "end": 2239.64, "text": "together with your stakeholders." }, { "start": 2240.08, "end": 2242.46, "text": "So yeah, for me, that's more agile than Scrum" }, { "start": 2243.44, "end": 2244.12, "text": "that I see nowadays." }, { "start": 2246.9, "end": 2253.1, "text": "Yeah, Kenny, thank you very much for all this insights into the collaboration of how we" }, { "start": 2253.2, "end": 2254.52, "text": "can design software." }, { "start": 2254.74, "end": 2260.8, "text": "I think there was there were a lot of very specific parts we can take in our daily business" }, { "start": 2261.3, "end": 2263.4, "text": "and to start with this topics." }, { "start": 2264.54, "end": 2268.54, "text": "So thank you very much that you have been here on the show in the podcast." }, { "start": 2269.54, "end": 2274.68, "text": "And up from now when we record, the OOP is still in the future, but maybe when we play" }, { "start": 2274.76, "end": 2278.16, "text": "the episode, it will be in the past." }, { "start": 2278.64, "end": 2284.4, "text": "So I wish you all the best for the OOP and a very great tutorial and workshop there and" }, { "start": 2284.4, "end": 2287.04, "text": "a lot of nice collaboration with the other guys." }, { "start": 2288.22, "end": 2288.84, "text": "Thank you." }, { "start": 2289.76, "end": 2290.14, "text": "Thank you." }, { "start": 2290.2, "end": 2290.48, "text": "Thank you." }, { "start": 2290.64, "end": 2290.8, "text": "Bye." }, { "start": 2290.9, "end": 2291.0, "text": "Bye." }, { "start": 2291.0, "end": 2291.12, "text": "Bye." }, { "start": 2292.72, "end": 2293.2, "text": "Bye." }, { "start": 2294.44, "end": 2294.56, "text": "Bye." }, { "start": 2297.8, "end": 2298.28, "text": "Bye." }, { "start": 2299.1, "end": 2299.52, "text": "Bye." } ]