[
  {
    "start": 0.78,
    "end": 12.03,
    "text": "Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed, the podcast for testers, test automation engineers developers and all people who want create great quality software."
  },
  {
    "start": 12.39,
    "end": 13.53,
    "text": "My name is Richie."
  },
  {
    "start": 13.61,
    "end": 17.83,
    "text": "I'm a software Quality Coach keynote speaker author and podcaster."
  },
  {
    "start": 18.09,
    "end": 21.91,
    "text": "obviously my guest today is Callum A. Kirst Ryan."
  },
  {
    "start": 22.39,
    "end": 30.35,
    "text": "he's a quality coach with nearly twenty years of experience across a range different industries in development methodology."
  },
  {
    "start": 30.45,
    "end": 35.77,
    "text": "We talk today about one of his favorite topics, about exploratory testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 36.07,
    "end": 37.07,
    "text": "How can we use it?"
  },
  {
    "start": 37.37,
    "end": 47.35,
    "text": "What strategies and methods are usable within exploratory tests And what should be taken care when implementing exploratory testings?"
  },
  {
    "start": 47.77,
    "end": 49.29,
    "text": "Now enjoy the episode!"
  },
  {
    "start": 62.11,
    "end": 62.17,
    "text": "Hi!"
  },
  {
    "start": 64.09,
    "end": 64.97,
    "text": "Thank you so much, Richard."
  },
  {
    "start": 65.11,
    "end": 67.33,
    "text": "Yeah it's great to be here."
  },
  {
    "start": 67.55,
    "end": 68.65,
    "text": "It is so nice."
  },
  {
    "start": 68.73,
    "end": 76.91,
    "text": "we had a long history now when we tried to get this meeting today but finally... We've done it!"
  },
  {
    "start": 78.77,
    "end": 86.79,
    "text": "Hopefully its all worth that and we get have a great conversation like two or three months of us trying to organize"
  },
  {
    "start": 88.33,
    "end": 88.81,
    "text": "this."
  },
  {
    "start": 89.81,
    "end": 97.95,
    "text": "But now we get it and you have a very interesting topic, I think that's very interesting for the community too."
  },
  {
    "start": 98.79,
    "end": 101.79,
    "text": "so today will talk about exploratory testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 104.79,
    "end": 111.97,
    "text": "I know exploratory testing a long time now in my career, and i see a lot of clients doing something."
  },
  {
    "start": 112.25,
    "end": 114.33,
    "text": "And call it exploratory-testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 114.39,
    "end": 126.13,
    "text": "but yeah... It's not really that thing ...that I think is so But from your point of view how would you describe exploratory tasting?"
  },
  {
    "start": 126.21,
    "end": 128.79,
    "text": "In the few sentences to get us into the topic?"
  },
  {
    "start": 130.35,
    "end": 130.61,
    "text": "Yeah!"
  },
  {
    "start": 130.93,
    "end": 144.01,
    "text": "So for me exploratory is running experiments and looking for information that helps us confirm or learn about the unknown."
  },
  {
    "start": 145.17,
    "end": 151.09,
    "text": "It's different from more traditional styles of testing where we can say, We would like this thing to happen?"
  },
  {
    "start": 151.65,
    "end": 152.71,
    "text": "Did it happen yes-or no?"
  },
  {
    "start": 153.71,
    "end": 162.55,
    "text": "Instead, its a technique in testing we use to say... ...we don't know anything about performance!"
  },
  {
    "start": 162.69,
    "end": 171.65,
    "text": "And also We don't have a benchmark for performance at the moment, so we will run experiments and find out information about that."
  },
  {
    "start": 171.97,
    "end": 173.61,
    "text": "That would inform our views on quality."
  },
  {
    "start": 174.17,
    "end": 176.97,
    "text": "So it's less saying yes or no to something."
  },
  {
    "start": 177.27,
    "end": 183.73,
    "text": "It is more finding the information that can inform whether or not you say Yes Or No later on."
  },
  {
    "start": 185.95,
    "end": 192.01,
    "text": "Typically when there are no expected results nor requirements in tests"
  },
  {
    "start": 193.25,
    "end": 193.73,
    "text": "Exactly."
  },
  {
    "start": 194.39,
    "end": 199.87,
    "text": "It's exactly, as you said we don't have an expectation We don't even have a requirement about something."
  },
  {
    "start": 200.25,
    "end": 207.53,
    "text": "it just allows us to Basically find out information and de-risk things where there is the most amount of risks Where?"
  },
  {
    "start": 208.41,
    "end": 211.97,
    "text": "Things are unknown Or they haven't been thought about."
  },
  {
    "start": 212.11,
    "end": 226.67,
    "text": "so its really useful technique that You can use in A lot Of different ways And key To That is trying to understand that exploratory testing doesn't just mean like, fuck around and find out."
  },
  {
    "start": 227.35,
    "end": 231.29,
    "text": "It doesn't Just Mean Random or Chaos."
  },
  {
    "start": 231.43,
    "end": 232.23,
    "text": "it can be not."
  },
  {
    "start": 233.49,
    "end": 235.29,
    "text": "But you Can structure it."
  },
  {
    "start": 235.55,
    "end": 239.19,
    "text": "You could Be quite Planned in your Approach Around Exploratory Testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 239.59,
    "end": 252.31,
    "text": "Quite Often When People Think About Exploretry Testing Their Experience of it Is Related To Say A Bug Bash Where You Ask Users To Come In And Just push all the buttons and see what happens."
  },
  {
    "start": 252.35,
    "end": 254.37,
    "text": "And maybe some defects fall out, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 254.43,
    "end": 258.17,
    "text": "It's a bug hunt but exploratory testing can be that."
  },
  {
    "start": 258.31,
    "end": 259.209,
    "text": "That is a method of it."
  },
  {
    "start": 259.329,
    "end": 261.81,
    "text": "But its a spectrum like any form of testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 261.85,
    "end": 266.21,
    "text": "Its a spectrum from there All way through to something really planned and technical."
  },
  {
    "start": 267.21,
    "end": 273.35,
    "text": "There are people who use AI and automation To run their exploratory test as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 273.81,
    "end": 286.61,
    "text": "So yeah...it doesn't even have to be just manual When we talk about exploratory testing, it's any types of like investigative or experimental work."
  },
  {
    "start": 286.71,
    "end": 294.27,
    "text": "We do to just find out information related to quality where things are unknown and don't have an expected result."
  },
  {
    "start": 295.43,
    "end": 296.05,
    "text": "What do you think?"
  },
  {
    "start": 296.17,
    "end": 305.99,
    "text": "You say it is a broad approach as what the typical scenarios and approaches that you use... ...and you have good experiences in Exploratory Testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 307.29,
    "end": 307.49,
    "text": "Yeah!"
  },
  {
    "start": 308.09,
    "end": 318.41,
    "text": "A lot of them come down to... So my context is that I work as a quality engineer, and i'm the only quality engineer in the organization that I worked for."
  },
  {
    "start": 319.13,
    "end": 324.33,
    "text": "And I have to work with software development engineers at all different levels!"
  },
  {
    "start": 325.31,
    "end": 331.61,
    "text": "And when doing exploratory testing it can fall into few areas."
  },
  {
    "start": 332.35,
    "end": 339.89,
    "text": "One shift left We explore to uncover and discuss risks about what we might build in the future."
  },
  {
    "start": 340.03,
    "end": 352.15,
    "text": "So I explore without really, you know parcel fail criteria designs or user stories or architecture documents anything like that and i can explore."
  },
  {
    "start": 353.63,
    "end": 360.97,
    "text": "it might be that i look at code or features or software that's developed to look up edge cases."
  },
  {
    "start": 361.51,
    "end": 365.05,
    "text": "because i work a lot with engineers they like thinking of happy path."
  },
  {
    "start": 365.31,
    "end": 368.09,
    "text": "They like thinking of, you know what can our unit test for?"
  },
  {
    "start": 368.27,
    "end": 368.69,
    "text": "What could I get?"
  },
  {
    "start": 368.73,
    "end": 370.11,
    "text": "the smallest amount tests for."
  },
  {
    "start": 370.83,
    "end": 379.41,
    "text": "So a lot stuff will be investigating through system to look at edge cases and find where things go wrong."
  },
  {
    "start": 380.43,
    "end": 389.43,
    "text": "And last place that i use it alot is retrofitting non-functional requirements."
  },
  {
    "start": 391.63,
    "end": 396.99,
    "text": "Lots and lots of organisations, I don't know if this speaks to you or have seen it as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 397.53,
    "end": 403.83,
    "text": "Lots of organisations built a lot software that never thought about their non-functional requirements."
  },
  {
    "start": 404.33,
    "end": 415.15,
    "text": "they had no idea security performance maintainability usability accessibility learn ability of code deployability."
  },
  {
    "start": 416.31,
    "end": 425.75,
    "text": "so the first place people understand that is to explore, not with a requirement in mind and saying you have to meet this threshold."
  },
  {
    "start": 426.17,
    "end": 428.27,
    "text": "but just to go I've looked at the system."
  },
  {
    "start": 429.01,
    "end": 432.17,
    "text": "And i've uncovered this information about it."
  },
  {
    "start": 432.39,
    "end": 434.81,
    "text": "like its this secure In these areas?"
  },
  {
    "start": 434.93,
    "end": 436.17,
    "text": "or there are these vulnerabilities?"
  },
  {
    "start": 436.63,
    "end": 439.59,
    "text": "page loading Is this fast except for These things?"
  },
  {
    "start": 439.69,
    "end": 441.05,
    "text": "It can handle This many people."
  },
  {
    "start": 441.81,
    "end": 452.21,
    "text": "um in fact this week i've been doing A lot of performance testing Not because anyone asked me But Because I saw a risk and I needed to find information, put in front of people."
  },
  {
    "start": 452.27,
    "end": 456.09,
    "text": "To say hey can our architecture handle certain loads?"
  },
  {
    "start": 456.45,
    "end": 457.23,
    "text": "Turns out we're good!"
  },
  {
    "start": 458.35,
    "end": 459.79,
    "text": "But it's important."
  },
  {
    "start": 459.97,
    "end": 465.59,
    "text": "so... Those are the main three areas that I tend to use it in my job day-to-day."
  },
  {
    "start": 467.07,
    "end": 483.09,
    "text": "It's very often a case where we don't have their required information, which can be tested against them and do such an approach... ...to get these informations out of our system for our team and developers here?"
  },
  {
    "start": 484.75,
    "end": 485.37,
    "text": "I agree!"
  },
  {
    "start": 487.93,
    "end": 494.77,
    "text": "A lot of the times at different organizations, there are less quality experts in organisations now."
  },
  {
    "start": 495.23,
    "end": 507.59,
    "text": "We're seeing that maybe a company will have one or two dedicated testers or quality engineers and that means we've lost knowledge about what does good look like for software?"
  },
  {
    "start": 508.27,
    "end": 515.689,
    "text": "So you got architects other engineers or product people who just forget these things."
  },
  {
    "start": 516.069,
    "end": 517.01,
    "text": "It's not top of mind."
  },
  {
    "start": 517.089,
    "end": 522.489,
    "text": "They want to deliver value, but they forget that features and functionality aren't the only one to get value."
  },
  {
    "start": 522.909,
    "end": 524.049,
    "text": "so they just need a bit of help."
  },
  {
    "start": 524.689,
    "end": 527.15,
    "text": "And they've forgotten to implement some of those things."
  },
  {
    "start": 527.229,
    "end": 530.39,
    "text": "or they thought I'd add it later Or they thought it came for free."
  },
  {
    "start": 530.969,
    "end": 537.209,
    "text": "So yeah quite often at quite A lot of organizations you'll come in there won't be requirements For things."
  },
  {
    "start": 537.77,
    "end": 541.05,
    "text": "There won't Be requirements for like Yeah non-functionals."
  },
  {
    "start": 541.27,
    "end": 547.79,
    "text": "or even thinking about edge cases or thinking of negative scenarios to things."
  },
  {
    "start": 547.87,
    "end": 549.849,
    "text": "Quite often, they just are not captured."
  },
  {
    "start": 551.229,
    "end": 561.77,
    "text": "and especially at startups in scale-ups you find that a lot because people think you don't need them Because you're not maturing as product You want to put out there quickly."
  },
  {
    "start": 562.51,
    "end": 565.05,
    "text": "You'll get feedback from customers if thing aren't working."
  },
  {
    "start": 565.489,
    "end": 569.569,
    "text": "So your'e not doing the exploration Your letting the customer do it."
  },
  {
    "start": 570.569,
    "end": 572.41,
    "text": "It's worth noting That is completely valid."
  },
  {
    "start": 573.609,
    "end": 577.81,
    "text": "It's just that, the reasoning why a lot of these things are not documented."
  },
  {
    "start": 577.91,
    "end": 584.89,
    "text": "So when you come in as a quality expert You end up in this situation going ah there is nothing I can."
  },
  {
    "start": 585.39,
    "end": 588.109,
    "text": "Okay maybe i need to look at it myself."
  },
  {
    "start": 588.189,
    "end": 590.189,
    "text": "and thats where exploration really helps."
  },
  {
    "start": 590.31,
    "end": 590.37,
    "text": "Yeah"
  },
  {
    "start": 591.51,
    "end": 593.75,
    "text": "yeah I think its very worthwhile."
  },
  {
    "start": 593.969,
    "end": 600.589,
    "text": "so lets go one level deeper your exploratory test."
  },
  {
    "start": 600.65,
    "end": 607.27,
    "text": "Do you have any best practices for us on, the people or process in detail?"
  },
  {
    "start": 607.37,
    "end": 609.849,
    "text": "For time frame and documentation out of it?"
  },
  {
    "start": 610.229,
    "end": 616.069,
    "text": "so to give her some more insight there!"
  },
  {
    "start": 617.069,
    "end": 628.41,
    "text": "Yeah I'm a big fan of Elizabeth Hendrickson's book Explore It And she sets out really good ways for structuring your explorary testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 629.949,
    "end": 636.65,
    "text": "Exploratory testing, by it's just virtue of what is can be quite fragmented."
  },
  {
    "start": 636.829,
    "end": 637.609,
    "text": "It could take forever."
  },
  {
    "start": 637.689,
    "end": 639.15,
    "text": "you could test everything right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 639.829,
    "end": 643.969,
    "text": "You need to find ways of going What's important and what matters to the team."
  },
  {
    "start": 645.17,
    "end": 651.37,
    "text": "And how do I make it so that i can work on other things So that I'm not just for ever looking at something."
  },
  {
    "start": 652.689,
    "end": 662.31,
    "text": "The way that Elizabeth Hendrickson talks about her Is to say cool We need a scope of our testing, or exploration that's based on risks."
  },
  {
    "start": 663.209,
    "end": 675.969,
    "text": "And then we need to time box that and that will focus us To allow us to one prioritize what were looking at make sure we're looking for risks That are important to the team Or two."
  },
  {
    "start": 676.229,
    "end": 682.829,
    "text": "it allows us Then be able work with lots Of things not just get really stuck in getting excited about something."
  },
  {
    "start": 684.689,
    "end": 689.849,
    "text": "I add The third thing which is taking your ego out of the equation as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 689.93,
    "end": 701.53,
    "text": "So make sure that you're thinking about finding information, um...that's really helpful and works with your team rather than trying to prove that you are correct or proof that you a good tester."
  },
  {
    "start": 702.849,
    "end": 718.229,
    "text": "Whenever I talk about exploratory testing And how to structure it To other quality experts i usually say It might be very exciting That when Venus is in alignment With Mercury and you're a Leo, is your star sign."
  },
  {
    "start": 718.849,
    "end": 721.589,
    "text": "And that you are eating lime gelatin."
  },
  {
    "start": 722.349,
    "end": 723.209,
    "text": "It might be very exciting."
  },
  {
    "start": 723.31,
    "end": 727.39,
    "text": "the system doesn't work but it's such weird edge case no one will ever fix."
  },
  {
    "start": 728.829,
    "end": 733.449,
    "text": "So we need to have view of what do people care about as well?"
  },
  {
    "start": 733.65,
    "end": 737.87,
    "text": "To help influence our testing With those three things."
  },
  {
    "start": 738.349,
    "end": 740.65,
    "text": "What does this mean for us as team?"
  },
  {
    "start": 742.39,
    "end": 750.189,
    "text": "We can then drive out risks and what scope of our testing can we have, then give ourselves an amount of time to look into that."
  },
  {
    "start": 751.17,
    "end": 765.849,
    "text": "Effectively it narrows the playground in which we explore because when you find useful information your team is going help like this and working well with them as they care about or time boxed up."
  },
  {
    "start": 766.469,
    "end": 773.77,
    "text": "You've also found things that are in a timely manner so people could fix their problems."
  },
  {
    "start": 775.79,
    "end": 783.79,
    "text": "Just to give like a practical explanation of if you don't do that, when you think about bugbashes."
  },
  {
    "start": 784.01,
    "end": 786.01,
    "text": "I'm sure... You've run bugbashers before right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 786.25,
    "end": 790.589,
    "text": "You got customers to do testing When they just click around randomly."
  },
  {
    "start": 791.27,
    "end": 792.53,
    "text": "what do they find though?"
  },
  {
    "start": 792.569,
    "end": 795.089,
    "text": "i have found things That They Personally Don't Like."
  },
  {
    "start": 795.729,
    "end": 795.79,
    "text": "Oh!"
  },
  {
    "start": 795.949,
    "end": 798.569,
    "text": "I don't like it's blue I like the colour green."
  },
  {
    "start": 799.63,
    "end": 806.43,
    "text": "Or they find really basic things at the surface level and don't go deeper, because they're going quite wide on things."
  },
  {
    "start": 806.81,
    "end": 820.53,
    "text": "They find lots of really basic issues that were easy to find you not finding anything deeper by having a really narrowed scope By saying here's my playground I'm gonna take an hour just in this play ground."
  },
  {
    "start": 821.069,
    "end": 824.349,
    "text": "That's when you get deeper and you find important bugs as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 824.449,
    "end": 831.63,
    "text": "So that's why it is important, and we can use the example of a bug bash to why depth isn't just important not just breadth?"
  },
  {
    "start": 832.15,
    "end": 832.55,
    "text": "Yeah yeah!"
  },
  {
    "start": 832.829,
    "end": 840.949,
    "text": "And I think also for avoiding getting stuck on this single piece which no one cares but dealing around with two hours."
  },
  {
    "start": 843.25,
    "end": 849.449,
    "text": "so always looking at perspective what my playground there would be in this time frame..."
  },
  {
    "start": 850.89,
    "end": 851.43,
    "text": "Very much."
  },
  {
    "start": 852.989,
    "end": 857.969,
    "text": "And when you start getting stuck on things as well, sometimes those things we don't care about."
  },
  {
    "start": 858.849,
    "end": 864.27,
    "text": "Sometimes we do though and it's perfectly valid like I find my structure of my testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 864.63,
    "end": 874.37,
    "text": "if i've finished my hour in my playground or area to go back to the team It gives me a cut off time To talk with them say hey they got stuck In this area!"
  },
  {
    "start": 874.729,
    "end": 876.13,
    "text": "I think there is something there."
  },
  {
    "start": 876.729,
    "end": 877.89,
    "text": "Would We Care About That?"
  },
  {
    "start": 879.27,
    "end": 881.39,
    "text": "If so can spend another hour looking at her."
  },
  {
    "start": 882.989,
    "end": 883.67,
    "text": "we wouldn't have cared."
  },
  {
    "start": 883.969,
    "end": 892.189,
    "text": "I've saved myself an extra hour and i can look at something else, so having that dedicated...I stop after an hour then talk to people."
  },
  {
    "start": 893.15,
    "end": 896.67,
    "text": "do you care about looking deeper into this or are good enough?"
  },
  {
    "start": 898.55,
    "end": 903.969,
    "text": "When we think about implementing this into a team or something like that, they are doing a lot of structure testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 905.729,
    "end": 909.51,
    "text": "How to begin and how much time should we spend in the beginning?"
  },
  {
    "start": 909.93,
    "end": 911.51,
    "text": "Into exploratory testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 911.63,
    "end": 917.189,
    "text": "so... We don't come there for three weeks just exploratory testings."
  },
  {
    "start": 917.329,
    "end": 917.949,
    "text": "then come back."
  },
  {
    "start": 918.829,
    "end": 920.109,
    "text": "do you have any experience with it?"
  },
  {
    "start": 921.51,
    "end": 921.689,
    "text": "Yeah!"
  },
  {
    "start": 922.609,
    "end": 932.349,
    "text": "So my experiences being only tester on a team So there's not a lot of my time to spend doing three weeks of exploratory testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 933.13,
    "end": 943.609,
    "text": "What I tend to do is, look i try to move my testing early To stop bugs happening or help engineers think about risks as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 944.489,
    "end": 958.43,
    "text": "so when the ticket is created When we have user story with acceptance criteria and I use three amigos and you might call it parrot three or story shaping, a story refinement to think up risks."
  },
  {
    "start": 958.709,
    "end": 961.51,
    "text": "And say hey what happens in the negative case here?"
  },
  {
    "start": 961.93,
    "end": 965.709,
    "text": "What happens if this...what happens for performance of this?"
  },
  {
    "start": 966.709,
    "end": 970.77,
    "text": "that starts engineers thinking about trying to fix those problems."
  },
  {
    "start": 970.829,
    "end": 971.93,
    "text": "so That's good way."
  },
  {
    "start": 972.069,
    "end": 975.89,
    "text": "getting started is having these conversations starting."
  },
  {
    "start": 976.03,
    "end": 978.329,
    "text": "get people used to working with risk."
  },
  {
    "start": 979.709,
    "end": 987.39,
    "text": "Additionally Look at a ticket that's already been created and create documentation."
  },
  {
    "start": 987.65,
    "end": 993.25,
    "text": "I used to make mind maps, they're sort of diagrams with all the different risks breakdown area."
  },
  {
    "start": 993.77,
    "end": 998.949,
    "text": "look at risks and say cool At the API layer here are things that could go wrong."
  },
  {
    "start": 999.27,
    "end": 1006.81,
    "text": "at the UI layer Here Are The Things That Could Go Wrong performance security And again then when we're picking up or working on the ticket."
  },
  {
    "start": 1007.489,
    "end": 1008.03,
    "text": "those are things."
  },
  {
    "start": 1009.189,
    "end": 1021.25,
    "text": "And then if I wanted to be really hands-on and help people enact some exploratory testing, um...I would usually pair with them."
  },
  {
    "start": 1022.069,
    "end": 1024.21,
    "text": "What's the most important things that we care about?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1024.99,
    "end": 1030.13,
    "text": "So by looking at the risks document in those risks We've been got a document where you can say"
  },
  {
    "start": 1031.17,
    "end": 1031.43,
    "text": "team."
  },
  {
    "start": 1031.95,
    "end": 1034.45,
    "text": "which of these things do we care About as a team?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1035.15,
    "end": 1036.05,
    "text": "what matters To us?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1036.35,
    "end": 1038.87,
    "text": "what should we explore for in These areas Of risk?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1040.71,
    "end": 1043.37,
    "text": "use that to drive all sort of testing effectively."
  },
  {
    "start": 1043.47,
    "end": 1052.27,
    "text": "We can say we'll spend three hours total, look at these areas and then work with the team to explore."
  },
  {
    "start": 1054.11,
    "end": 1063.31,
    "text": "I think key is not trying do everything or be perfect because you mentioned like three weeks."
  },
  {
    "start": 1063.75,
    "end": 1076.51,
    "text": "I was talking to people on LinkedIn about this the other day and i said you cannot test every scenario."
  },
  {
    "start": 1077.29,
    "end": 1080.47,
    "text": "You can not, so you have to focus on what matters."
  },
  {
    "start": 1081.19,
    "end": 1103.01,
    "text": "if you think of a field with A one hundred character longfield The amount of combinations Of characters that could exist for a one-hundred Character Longfield With the character sets and regexes That are available To us there are more combinations than would exist for seconds of the universe."
  },
  {
    "start": 1104.97,
    "end": 1113.51,
    "text": "So you cannot, if each test took a second... You can not because the Universe hasn't lasted as long as that just from one field!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1114.21,
    "end": 1117.91,
    "text": "so..you can't exhaustively test them and have to be able go right."
  },
  {
    "start": 1118.13,
    "end": 1118.75,
    "text": "what matters?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1118.99,
    "end": 1119.77,
    "text": "What's important?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1119.91,
    "end": 1122.83,
    "text": "And prioritising really focuses us on that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1124.65,
    "end": 1130.01,
    "text": "It is important talk about not trying to do everything, not trying be exhaustive."
  },
  {
    "start": 1130.21,
    "end": 1134.69,
    "text": "Not doing three weeks and sharing that view with the people we're working with as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 1134.83,
    "end": 1137.37,
    "text": "saying good enough looks like will spend an hour on it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1137.85,
    "end": 1138.67,
    "text": "see what comes out of."
  },
  {
    "start": 1139.41,
    "end": 1141.67,
    "text": "Decide based on that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1141.95,
    "end": 1143.61,
    "text": "Yeah, yeah great advice."
  },
  {
    "start": 1143.65,
    "end": 1144.39,
    "text": "Thank you for that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1145.65,
    "end": 1151.41,
    "text": "So when we come to the documentation so then we get information out of nothing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1154.15,
    "end": 1155.41,
    "text": "Do have any recommendation?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1155.49,
    "end": 1165.77,
    "text": "On how to document our outcomes on the one side but also what We tested especially in this session not to do it again next week because we cannot remember on that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1168.81,
    "end": 1171.55,
    "text": "Your context is going to be really important here."
  },
  {
    "start": 1172.47,
    "end": 1180.87,
    "text": "A lot of time when we think about testing and we think concepts, documentation in testing... ...we think about auditability."
  },
  {
    "start": 1181.25,
    "end": 1188.89,
    "text": "We think what works for the finance sector or banking Because that's where a lot of testing has grown from."
  },
  {
    "start": 1189.01,
    "end": 1191.17,
    "text": "So you have test evidence."
  },
  {
    "start": 1191.55,
    "end": 1207.65,
    "text": "You need screenshots And not always true In fact, your outcomes and reports on testing what lives from you're testing could just be the defects of conversations in knowledge gained as a team."
  },
  {
    "start": 1208.65,
    "end": 1215.63,
    "text": "You can document very briefly like a Slack channel or Teams call."
  },
  {
    "start": 1219.53,
    "end": 1224.01,
    "text": "You need to look at the level of testing that is needed if working agile."
  },
  {
    "start": 1224.13,
    "end": 1227.87,
    "text": "but it's just the code will document what we've decided."
  },
  {
    "start": 1228.59,
    "end": 1235.73,
    "text": "We'll make it more performant off the back of this or build another ticket to do that, write unit tests around what's been found and fix code."
  },
  {
    "start": 1236.19,
    "end": 1238.75,
    "text": "That could be a documentation coming out at these things!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1240.39,
    "end": 1251.19,
    "text": "That is in an unregulated environment but there are lots different ways of documenting things out here."
  },
  {
    "start": 1251.67,
    "end": 1259.07,
    "text": "some people record videos and they watch them back to say, hey look here are the things that I've done."
  },
  {
    "start": 1259.61,
    "end": 1262.89,
    "text": "Some people take test notes as their going um... That works really well."
  },
  {
    "start": 1262.95,
    "end": 1270.59,
    "text": "if you're pairing with someone because Someone can be driving a screen The other person could writing it down And then you formulate into something more meaningful."
  },
  {
    "start": 1270.91,
    "end": 1275.09,
    "text": "like we did these things and saw this thing It's just afterwards."
  },
  {
    "start": 1275.23,
    "end": 1280.89,
    "text": "after your hour You create short report on things which is what i tend do."
  },
  {
    "start": 1281.39,
    "end": 1286.49,
    "text": "I create a short reports off of my observations but very brief ones."
  },
  {
    "start": 1286.85,
    "end": 1297.91,
    "text": "I've usually got, like a pad of paper and pen with me to say here are the things that i've looked at... I distill them into important points basically To see all these things."
  },
  {
    "start": 1298.19,
    "end": 1298.67,
    "text": "they were good."
  },
  {
    "start": 1299.45,
    "end": 1306.43,
    "text": "Here are some questions on.. here might be problem And then use it for conversation With my team."
  },
  {
    "start": 1308.05,
    "end": 1315.81,
    "text": "Anything comes off back is um, like captured on tickets or captured just on a wiki page."
  },
  {
    "start": 1316.23,
    "end": 1324.19,
    "text": "Or something to say hey look here are the things that we've learned when it comes to not repeating tests because That was a question you had."
  },
  {
    "start": 1325.17,
    "end": 1331.43,
    "text": "and I would say exploratory testing is A bad way of doing repeatable tests."
  },
  {
    "start": 1332.93,
    "end": 1336.37,
    "text": "so The usual when i When I diagrammed things out?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1336.59,
    "end": 1342.15,
    "text": "I usually Say Um...I have Like a line that goes from known to the unknown."
  },
  {
    "start": 1343.11,
    "end": 1355.35,
    "text": "And we do exploratory testing when things are unknown, but from the unknown We get information that makes things known and anything That's known is perfect for scripted or automated tests."
  },
  {
    "start": 1356.21,
    "end": 1368.51,
    "text": "So the best way to stop yourself From you know looking in the same area of running The same test again Is to turn them into automated tests at code level Or feature Level wherever You want that To be if it matters."
  },
  {
    "start": 1368.95,
    "end": 1371.61,
    "text": "so then regression suite there."
  },
  {
    "start": 1372.09,
    "end": 1381.15,
    "text": "If you're having to do a big manual regression suite via exploratory testing, then it's... You'll get drift because you won't do things the same way each time and that might be okay!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1381.73,
    "end": 1385.19,
    "text": "You might still say I need to hit these major points or doing them in different ways."
  },
  {
    "start": 1385.53,
    "end": 1387.71,
    "text": "Maybe we'll shake out different information about it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1387.87,
    "end": 1391.47,
    "text": "You probably won't, but maybe you will... ...but is just not the best use of time!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1391.61,
    "end": 1414.35,
    "text": "Yeah great that's a very important part to think of the perspective of exploratory testing That we deal with the unknown and It's not a replacement for our structure testing because it doesn't fit there But can be a pre-preparation Of doing some scripting or structure test afterwards With the known stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 1415.91,
    "end": 1427.91,
    "text": "Yeah, lots of teams fall into the trap Of not wanting to plan their tests for structured testing and just go oh we'll do exploratory testing To basically not have to document anything."
  },
  {
    "start": 1428.35,
    "end": 1429.41,
    "text": "We won't write test."
  },
  {
    "start": 1429.49,
    "end": 1429.73,
    "text": "We weren't."
  },
  {
    "start": 1429.85,
    "end": 1437.37,
    "text": "automates really will Just do exploratary testing or take two weeks at The end of a month And Do whatever."
  },
  {
    "start": 1437.43,
    "end": 1438.49,
    "text": "then see what happens?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1440.39,
    "end": 1445.85,
    "text": "an approach, but it's not the most effective approach in terms of your testing strategy."
  },
  {
    "start": 1447.19,
    "end": 1465.33,
    "text": "And I think that what a lot of us have experienced is exploratory testing used in the wrong ways to do that sort of...I won't script things or automate things and I will manually explore…not have a plan for things where we already know."
  },
  {
    "start": 1468.95,
    "end": 1475.15,
    "text": "You mentioned at the beginning, that connection between exploratory testing and AI automation."
  },
  {
    "start": 1475.65,
    "end": 1478.43,
    "text": "Can we... can the flashlight on this topic too?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1479.81,
    "end": 1482.23,
    "text": "What's in there for us with all the AI"
  },
  {
    "start": 1482.33,
    "end": 1482.63,
    "text": "stuff?!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1484.09,
    "end": 1484.29,
    "text": "Yeah!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1484.43,
    "end": 1486.41,
    "text": "This is a really burgeoning field."
  },
  {
    "start": 1486.85,
    "end": 1487.71,
    "text": "it's really new."
  },
  {
    "start": 1488.09,
    "end": 1490.89,
    "text": "I'm not gonna claim to be an expert."
  },
  {
    "start": 1493.71,
    "end": 1498.21,
    "text": "different tools that people are starting to play with, starting to explore."
  },
  {
    "start": 1499.11,
    "end": 1515.97,
    "text": "So Playwright has good integrations two different language models and theoretically I've seen it used once or twice but not in the large And It's something That i need To look into a bit more."
  },
  {
    "start": 1516.67,
    "end": 1534.09,
    "text": "But Theoretically you can basically use your AI Tool link to say hey Look here is A website Using the tools that Playwright give us, so the ability to use the browser, explore and spider this website."
  },
  {
    "start": 1535.43,
    "end": 1538.55,
    "text": "Identify workflows and document them."
  },
  {
    "start": 1540.41,
    "end": 1561.81,
    "text": "So if you think of vulnerability scanners in security like OWASP ZAP which spider through websites and try to identify everything we can basically AI to say, hey do that but for the functionality of my website and identify the common processes in so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 1562.29,
    "end": 1563.41,
    "text": "And document what's there?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1564.31,
    "end": 1576.27,
    "text": "That can be a way of exploring to retrofit automation In old tests because then you could rerun it now You're gonna get some good or bad from that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1576.37,
    "end": 1577.75,
    "text": "But its'a starting point."
  },
  {
    "start": 1579.13,
    "end": 1591.13,
    "text": "It could be a very nice input for us as a tester, but we have to think about what is the outcome and deal with that too."
  },
  {
    "start": 1591.53,
    "end": 1593.07,
    "text": "What does the tools deliver then?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1593.19,
    "end": 1597.63,
    "text": "And reflect it not just take them and say okay this is the truth!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1599.89,
    "end": 1607.31,
    "text": "You can in some situations do that though there's a concept called golden master testing where you basically go."
  },
  {
    "start": 1608.15,
    "end": 1611.43,
    "text": "The tool has been in production, the tool is the tool."
  },
  {
    "start": 1612.07,
    "end": 1617.49,
    "text": "Therefore whatever the tool does we're just going to write tests and confirm that it keeps doing that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1617.87,
    "end": 1622.49,
    "text": "whether or not was the intention of now We don't have requirements anymore, tickets were short lived."
  },
  {
    "start": 1622.79,
    "end": 1623.39,
    "text": "they've gone away."
  },
  {
    "start": 1624.53,
    "end": 1628.45,
    "text": "maybe product owner doesn't time tell us these things."
  },
  {
    "start": 1628.91,
    "end": 1629.21,
    "text": "Fine!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1629.59,
    "end": 1632.83,
    "text": "We'll use test document what exists currently."
  },
  {
    "start": 1634.91,
    "end": 1640.37,
    "text": "That's usually when you have retrofit regression tests, like exploring to just go."
  },
  {
    "start": 1640.83,
    "end": 1645.79,
    "text": "it currently does these things and then we'll just write tests off the back of it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1645.93,
    "end": 1650.17,
    "text": "That's golden master testing basically confirming the behavior that is already there."
  },
  {
    "start": 1651.51,
    "end": 1658.65,
    "text": "Software engineers do this same thing when retrofitting code-based tests called characterisation testing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1658.69,
    "end": 1664.91,
    "text": "they explore the code and say okay the code behaviour or logic are right in a test."
  },
  {
    "start": 1666.15,
    "end": 1669.01,
    "text": "What I've learned from what the code currently does doesn't matter."
  },
  {
    "start": 1669.05,
    "end": 1669.73,
    "text": "What was intended?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1670.11,
    "end": 1671.37,
    "text": "Doesn't matter, but it's architected."
  },
  {
    "start": 1672.03,
    "end": 1673.71,
    "text": "We're just going to assume the code is live."
  },
  {
    "start": 1673.93,
    "end": 1677.45,
    "text": "therefore Is the product we'll just add in tests for that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1679.19,
    "end": 1681.11,
    "text": "So there isn't an approach to that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1681.23,
    "end": 1693.13,
    "text": "so you're right and though It's not again The best because we're not testing for the intention at the intention behind what they code Was supposed to do or the products were supposed today."
  },
  {
    "start": 1694.03,
    "end": 1698.87,
    "text": "but we can make improvements by testing what it does do, and making sure that doesn't change from there."
  },
  {
    "start": 1699.29,
    "end": 1701.43,
    "text": "So... There's an approach to that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1701.83,
    "end": 1708.51,
    "text": "I think That is where exploration using AI really helps us Is to say hey What does this thing do?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1709.85,
    "end": 1712.31,
    "text": "Pull out for me And then let"
  },
  {
    "start": 1712.43,
    "end": 1712.65,
    "text": "use them."
  },
  {
    "start": 1712.89,
    "end": 1713.35,
    "text": "Yeah, yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1713.41,
    "end": 1720.25,
    "text": "A great approach and I think we can deal with all the AI tools much more in testing area next year."
  },
  {
    "start": 1722.57,
    "end": 1728.83,
    "text": "We have to deal with that And as you described it's very useful for some situations."
  },
  {
    "start": 1730.07,
    "end": 1730.79,
    "text": "Yeah, Kalaam."
  },
  {
    "start": 1730.99,
    "end": 1734.39,
    "text": "Thank you very much for your insights here into this topic."
  },
  {
    "start": 1734.55,
    "end": 1754.01,
    "text": "I think we have a brave overview of the idea and going in to inspire some people try it out on their non-functional requirements or not requirements To explore them And to try us out We put our contact details also in show notes."
  },
  {
    "start": 1754.05,
    "end": 1760.33,
    "text": "So if anyone has questions that i'm sure will answer For them."
  },
  {
    "start": 1761.55,
    "end": 1762.55,
    "text": "Yeah, definitely."
  },
  {
    "start": 1763.43,
    "end": 1779.01,
    "text": "people can reach out to me and talk about exploratory testing or look on my blog I have a lot of like materials on that, where I've spoken about exploratory testing to developers or how i use it in different areas of quality engineering."
  },
  {
    "start": 1779.31,
    "end": 1779.43,
    "text": "Yeah!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1779.65,
    "end": 1780.15,
    "text": "That's great."
  },
  {
    "start": 1780.75,
    "end": 1781.77,
    "text": "so thank you very much."
  },
  {
    "start": 1782.11,
    "end": 1787.09,
    "text": "have a good day and the good year and hopefully we will see in person this year too at some conference."
  },
  {
    "start": 1787.23,
    "end": 1790.93,
    "text": "something would be nice to chat with your in-person too."
  },
  {
    "start": 1792.25,
    "end": 1794.31,
    "text": "Definitely yeah that'd be great to meet with you."
  },
  {
    "start": 1794.35,
    "end": 1796.91,
    "text": "um...I need come more conferences But"
  },
  {
    "start": 1796.97,
    "end": 1799.49,
    "text": "yeah, definitely."
  },
  {
    "start": 1799.65,
    "end": 1800.95,
    "text": "Thank you so much for having me Richard!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1800.99,
    "end": 1801.15,
    "text": "Yeah"
  },
  {
    "start": 1801.27,
    "end": 1803.89,
    "text": "thank you bye-bye."
  }
]