[ { "start": 0.0, "end": 10.88, "text": " My name is Martin Wolff and I am the official podcast representative of Golem.de." }, { "start": 10.88, "end": 15.76, "text": " This podcast is the English original version of a talk with Eugene Bolzakov about his Soviet" }, { "start": 15.76, "end": 17.0, "text": " home computer." }, { "start": 17.0, "end": 20.28, "text": " We made a translated version with a machine learning tool." }, { "start": 20.28, "end": 24.6, "text": " This German version is available on the same platforms as this podcast." }, { "start": 24.6, "end": 26.96, "text": " It will be linked in the show notes as well." }, { "start": 26.96, "end": 31.16, "text": " My guest Eugene Bolzakov agreed to this experimental translation." }, { "start": 31.16, "end": 36.52, "text": " I am now sitting in my office with Eugene Bolzakov." }, { "start": 36.52, "end": 43.32, "text": " Eugene we met at VCFB which is like the vintage computing festival Berlin where I saw you" }, { "start": 43.32, "end": 49.92, "text": " with Russian, no a Soviet small computer like a home computer." }, { "start": 49.92, "end": 56.44, "text": " Eugene first where did you come from and how did you get to own this computer?" }, { "start": 56.44, "end": 59.64, "text": " I was born and grew up in Uzbekistan." }, { "start": 59.64, "end": 64.96, "text": " That time it was Uzbek SSR so I was born in the Soviet Union." }, { "start": 64.96, "end": 73.08, "text": " And this computer I ordered but I had a Soviet home computer, another one when I was a kid." }, { "start": 73.08, "end": 81.32, "text": " When I was around nine it was 1991 and I was interested in that and my mom got me this" }, { "start": 81.32, "end": 82.64, "text": " computer." }, { "start": 82.64, "end": 86.68, "text": " So I grew up with those computers." }, { "start": 86.68, "end": 91.4, "text": " There were no community or I didn't know about that so I was alone but that was something" }, { "start": 91.4, "end": 100.24, "text": " to start and maybe if I didn't have it I wouldn't work as an IT specialist now." }, { "start": 100.24, "end": 101.24, "text": " That's a story." }, { "start": 101.24, "end": 103.04, "text": " That's often how it starts." }, { "start": 103.04, "end": 106.36, "text": " You see something, you see this computer and you think okay I should do something." }, { "start": 106.36, "end": 110.16, "text": " So what could you do when you had this computer in your early age?" }, { "start": 110.16, "end": 113.12, "text": " I just could program on basic." }, { "start": 113.12, "end": 118.0, "text": " Most of those, I think all of those or most of those home computers, they have basic inside." }, { "start": 118.0, "end": 122.48, "text": " If you just turn it on it runs basic and you can program on basic." }, { "start": 122.48, "end": 127.72, "text": " Basic was I think the only one language on those computers." }, { "start": 127.72, "end": 132.68, "text": " The second one was assembler but of course assembler is very complicated for beginners" }, { "start": 132.68, "end": 135.56, "text": " and usually we start from basic." }, { "start": 135.56, "end": 140.84, "text": " We program on basic, we learn how to program, we learn how to use computer." }, { "start": 140.84, "end": 145.96, "text": " There were some games on the tape which I could load from the tape recorder and it was" }, { "start": 145.96, "end": 148.32, "text": " like a very long story." }, { "start": 148.32, "end": 153.4, "text": " You need to load them from four minutes or even longer and then I could play some games" }, { "start": 153.4, "end": 157.16, "text": " but I am a person who didn't like playing." }, { "start": 157.16, "end": 160.6, "text": " I liked creating, I liked programming." }, { "start": 160.6, "end": 165.24, "text": " So that's what I was doing on this computer and what people usually were doing on that" }, { "start": 165.24, "end": 166.56, "text": " home computers." }, { "start": 166.56, "end": 171.36, "text": " We will come to the exact model and what's the story behind it later." }, { "start": 171.36, "end": 181.0, "text": " Now when I imagine the ex-Soviet Union in '91, this is a hard time." }, { "start": 181.0, "end": 185.92, "text": " Whenever I see pictures from them or hear stories from the 90s in Russia, it always" }, { "start": 185.92, "end": 189.76, "text": " was a very bleak time for the normal people." }, { "start": 189.76, "end": 195.2, "text": " Some people really got very rich but the rest they were like desperate times." }, { "start": 195.2, "end": 197.32, "text": " How did you experience that?" }, { "start": 197.32, "end": 198.32, "text": " That's true." }, { "start": 198.32, "end": 205.48, "text": " In Uzbekistan, I lived in Tashkent and Tashkent is a capital and in Uzbekistan it was a bit" }, { "start": 205.48, "end": 211.08, "text": " easier with food because they could grow something there." }, { "start": 211.08, "end": 219.84, "text": " The earth gave us food and fruits and stuff like that but people were losing jobs." }, { "start": 219.84, "end": 225.96, "text": " Some people had to go for shopping to China and bring stuff and then get money." }, { "start": 225.96, "end": 227.24, "text": " It was hard." }, { "start": 227.24, "end": 237.24, "text": " It was hard but in some places, maybe in Russia, where far from cities like a Russian countryside," }, { "start": 237.24, "end": 239.12, "text": " it was much harder." }, { "start": 239.12, "end": 247.52, "text": " There it was more or less, I couldn't say okay but not so bad." }, { "start": 247.52, "end": 251.4, "text": " But still, if you read from the Russians, they always refer, they have a special name" }, { "start": 251.4, "end": 252.4, "text": " for these 90s." }, { "start": 252.4, "end": 255.36, "text": " Do they say the rough 90s, the wild 90s?" }, { "start": 255.36, "end": 256.36, "text": " I don't know." }, { "start": 256.36, "end": 260.52, "text": " They have a special name for this, I think." }, { "start": 260.52, "end": 268.76, "text": " In Russian it would be \"lyhiyye\" but maybe the translation would be rough or wild." }, { "start": 268.76, "end": 274.52, "text": " That was because some people were very poor and some people started making money on this" }, { "start": 274.52, "end": 282.04, "text": " and they were shooting on streets, no law." }, { "start": 282.04, "end": 284.72, "text": " That's why it's called like this." }, { "start": 284.72, "end": 290.52, "text": " My only, if we could do this podcast in Russian, it would be very short because I could say" }, { "start": 290.52, "end": 294.84, "text": " \"meniazabut Martin Wolf, ja živu na ulicy vorysstraße\"." }, { "start": 294.84, "end": 301.28, "text": " I know that \"dien razdienja\" is birthday and I know, the other word I know is \"dastapli" }, { "start": 301.28, "end": 306.48, "text": " bechartya nosti\" because everybody who learned Russian has, this is the only word they know." }, { "start": 306.48, "end": 308.24, "text": " If they don't know anything, they know this." }, { "start": 308.24, "end": 315.4, "text": " That's true, that everyone who learned Russian somewhere outside, that's maybe what you learned" }, { "start": 315.4, "end": 317.08, "text": " and everyone learned." }, { "start": 317.08, "end": 318.08, "text": " Yeah, we did." }, { "start": 318.08, "end": 319.08, "text": " We did." }, { "start": 319.08, "end": 324.4, "text": " And it's a bit sad that the only thing that stuck with that is this, but this is because" }, { "start": 324.4, "end": 331.44, "text": " we learned the language, like from books, there was no real, you know, we didn't talk" }, { "start": 331.44, "end": 333.2, "text": " to anyone in Russian." }, { "start": 333.2, "end": 337.48, "text": " We hadn't, we didn't write letters or anything, so we had no communication." }, { "start": 337.48, "end": 338.56, "text": " It was very abstract." }, { "start": 338.56, "end": 340.28, "text": " The whole thing was very abstract." }, { "start": 340.28, "end": 344.92, "text": " That was the same with English in post, in Soviet Union and post-Soviet countries." }, { "start": 344.92, "end": 349.96, "text": " We also learned it from books and we could read something, but we couldn't talk." }, { "start": 349.96, "end": 358.4, "text": " I just, it was really, it was maybe the same as you had, but English started to be like" }, { "start": 358.4, "end": 364.52, "text": " common language, very international and of course people who needed to like even work" }, { "start": 364.52, "end": 371.52, "text": " and when the country got a bit open, then people needed to speak at least a little English" }, { "start": 371.52, "end": 378.28, "text": " to understand people coming from other places and to like cultural, technical exchange." }, { "start": 378.28, "end": 385.64, "text": " So I had to have special courses for that and also thank you to my partner because she" }, { "start": 385.64, "end": 388.8, "text": " once banned Russian in our house." }, { "start": 388.8, "end": 392.08, "text": " We were speaking only English." }, { "start": 392.08, "end": 393.08, "text": " That was hard." }, { "start": 393.08, "end": 396.6, "text": " That was harsh, but it worked." }, { "start": 396.6, "end": 397.6, "text": " That's very great." }, { "start": 397.6, "end": 400.44, "text": " And in the end, and now we can sit here and speak English." }, { "start": 400.44, "end": 405.0, "text": " I didn't have English in school until 1990, until the war came down." }, { "start": 405.0, "end": 409.56, "text": " We only had Russian before that and we started with English later, but I found English to" }, { "start": 409.56, "end": 411.52, "text": " be much, much easier." }, { "start": 411.52, "end": 417.28, "text": " Also I learned a lot of English from computers, from reading the text and the demos and in" }, { "start": 417.28, "end": 418.28, "text": " the games." }, { "start": 418.28, "end": 425.48, "text": " You know, I had a very good amount of computer game English, which made it easier." }, { "start": 425.48, "end": 431.88, "text": " So now we go back before the war came down and before Soviet Russia went down the drain" }, { "start": 431.88, "end": 440.2, "text": " and there was a combine, which is like, you say if I say something wrong, you do, okay?" }, { "start": 440.2, "end": 448.28, "text": " Like a combine is like, it's like a brand, but it also is like a conglomerate of different" }, { "start": 448.28, "end": 455.8, "text": " companies or branches which produce different things under one name." }, { "start": 455.8, "end": 461.08, "text": " And then they are all like in communist, yeah, the communist country, they are all like in" }, { "start": 461.08, "end": 462.08, "text": " the combine." }, { "start": 462.08, "end": 467.68, "text": " So Elektronika was one of these combines in the Soviet Union." }, { "start": 467.68, "end": 474.12, "text": " In Eastern Germany, we had Robotron, which were producing computers." }, { "start": 474.12, "end": 479.6, "text": " They were producing radios, like I don't know, watches, no, no, no, no, but clocks." }, { "start": 479.6, "end": 484.4, "text": " I know that they produce clocks and everything like quite a lot of electronic stuff." }, { "start": 484.4, "end": 488.6, "text": " And also Elektronika did the same in Russia, didn't they?" }, { "start": 488.6, "end": 489.6, "text": " They did." }, { "start": 489.6, "end": 493.4, "text": " Elektronika was, I think that was just a name." }, { "start": 493.4, "end": 500.32, "text": " Most of devices, any devices, not only computer, they started producing computers much later." }, { "start": 500.32, "end": 506.28, "text": " Most of devices, they were TVs, they were radios, they were clocks, also hand raised watches" }, { "start": 506.28, "end": 510.0, "text": " and music things." }, { "start": 510.0, "end": 516.64, "text": " That was a name and different factories were producing them because everything belonged" }, { "start": 516.64, "end": 524.48, "text": " to the government and they just didn't put a name and they even had a, I found it quite" }, { "start": 524.48, "end": 530.0, "text": " recently, they had a naming convention, how to call devices." }, { "start": 530.0, "end": 536.44, "text": " There was an Elektronika, then there was a number and the first digit meant this, the" }, { "start": 536.44, "end": 539.84, "text": " second digit meant this and they even had it." }, { "start": 539.84, "end": 545.44, "text": " That was, I think, most of things produced in Soviet Union called Elektronika." }, { "start": 545.44, "end": 548.92, "text": " There was also a factory called VEV in Riga." }, { "start": 548.92, "end": 556.32, "text": " Now it's closed and they were producing more, they produced some radios, they produced telephones" }, { "start": 556.32, "end": 562.84, "text": " and some other devices for home, but they had their own name, VEV." }, { "start": 562.84, "end": 570.96, "text": " But mostly Elektronika and VEV were, I think, two common names and Elektronika was like" }, { "start": 570.96, "end": 571.96, "text": " everything." }, { "start": 571.96, "end": 576.68, "text": " Yeah, and it even came to Eastern Germany because I remember vividly that the Soviet" }, { "start": 576.68, "end": 582.16, "text": " soldiers which were stationed here during the Cold War, they brought stuff from Russia" }, { "start": 582.16, "end": 587.88, "text": " and sold it in second hand shops because they got more money because it was stuff that people" }, { "start": 587.88, "end": 588.88, "text": " didn't have here." }, { "start": 588.88, "end": 595.72, "text": " And for example they had LCD games, like small handheld games with LCD screens on it, which" }, { "start": 595.72, "end": 599.04, "text": " could beep and there were watches and all that." }, { "start": 599.04, "end": 603.32, "text": " And Eastern Germany didn't have something like that, but it came from Russia and they" }, { "start": 603.32, "end": 608.76, "text": " sold it and you could buy it in the second hand store for 100 mark, which was a lot of" }, { "start": 608.76, "end": 613.76, "text": " money for a kid back there, but it was like probably, I don't know, I don't know what" }, { "start": 613.76, "end": 615.88, "text": " is a small amount of money then." }, { "start": 615.88, "end": 617.64, "text": " I like 30 roubles or something." }, { "start": 617.64, "end": 621.68, "text": " I mean it was much, much cheaper in the Soviet Union, but they brought it here and it sold" }, { "start": 621.68, "end": 622.68, "text": " it." }, { "start": 622.68, "end": 623.68, "text": " It was called Elektronika." }, { "start": 623.68, "end": 628.28, "text": " It was also called Elektronika and I had that thing in 1987." }, { "start": 628.28, "end": 629.28, "text": " Yeah." }, { "start": 629.28, "end": 634.04, "text": " And that was like really for kids to play like we now use phones." }, { "start": 634.04, "end": 638.44, "text": " We could play it during commuting to school for example." }, { "start": 638.44, "end": 643.72, "text": " It was not safe because our parents said that not to bring it to school, they hit you and" }, { "start": 643.72, "end": 650.28, "text": " they steal it from you, but that was a nice thing just to play for a kid." }, { "start": 650.28, "end": 653.2, "text": " And it really had an LCD." }, { "start": 653.2, "end": 655.44, "text": " Actually it was a replica." }, { "start": 655.44, "end": 659.4, "text": " I don't remember which exact thing." }, { "start": 659.4, "end": 660.4, "text": " Nintendo." }, { "start": 660.4, "end": 664.24, "text": " Yeah, but it had different characters." }, { "start": 664.24, "end": 668.96, "text": " It had the rabbit and the wolf, which were like these are the main characters." }, { "start": 668.96, "end": 671.32, "text": " Everybody knew the cartoons with the rabbit and the wolf." }, { "start": 671.32, "end": 672.32, "text": " And it had like..." }, { "start": 672.32, "end": 675.08, "text": " I think I had one with the rabbit and the wolf." }, { "start": 675.08, "end": 680.96, "text": " So 1987, I would have been very envious of you because we didn't have this." }, { "start": 680.96, "end": 683.84, "text": " I don't know where my mom found it." }, { "start": 683.84, "end": 687.64, "text": " Maybe they were already cheaper or I don't know." }, { "start": 687.64, "end": 689.64, "text": " Yeah, so they had..." }, { "start": 689.64, "end": 697.12, "text": " I don't have one of these, but what I do have is a Pong game from Elektronika." }, { "start": 697.12, "end": 701.0, "text": " It's called Tournir, which you know, it's like a Pong console." }, { "start": 701.0, "end": 702.52, "text": " It's got only one chip." }, { "start": 702.52, "end": 706.8, "text": " And if I opened it and the mainboard, it looks terrible." }, { "start": 706.8, "end": 707.8, "text": " It looks terrible." }, { "start": 707.8, "end": 710.6, "text": " It's all soldered, but not in a good way." }, { "start": 710.6, "end": 712.8, "text": " You know, it's all cables and all that." }, { "start": 712.8, "end": 717.32, "text": " It looks very, very socialist, like socialist electronics." }, { "start": 717.32, "end": 720.24, "text": " We come to if the BK has the same stuff." }, { "start": 720.24, "end": 725.72, "text": " But I have this one and I also have an Elektronika clock, ready?" }, { "start": 725.72, "end": 730.24, "text": " No, not ready, clock, which a friend and colleague gave me." }, { "start": 730.24, "end": 738.8, "text": " And yeah, so I have at least two devices and you have the BK0010." }, { "start": 738.8, "end": 745.76, "text": " So we already established that the first numbers in that probably have something to do with" }, { "start": 745.76, "end": 748.08, "text": " the device class." }, { "start": 748.08, "end": 749.32, "text": " But what is BK?" }, { "start": 749.32, "end": 750.56, "text": " What does it stand for?" }, { "start": 750.56, "end": 759.4, "text": " That's for BK, that number is a bit different because that naming convention came later" }, { "start": 759.4, "end": 764.16, "text": " and 0010 is a binary two." }, { "start": 764.16, "end": 768.84, "text": " The next model was 0011 and that's a binary three." }, { "start": 768.84, "end": 773.4, "text": " Why they didn't put binary one, I don't know." }, { "start": 773.4, "end": 774.8, "text": " But it's a clever naming scheme." }, { "start": 774.8, "end": 779.2, "text": " Yeah, BK is BK is Bytavoy computer." }, { "start": 779.2, "end": 784.2, "text": " That means Bytavoy, it's like for household." }, { "start": 784.2, "end": 786.44, "text": " So that's not a home." }, { "start": 786.44, "end": 790.92, "text": " It's not that I can say home computer, but it's a household computer." }, { "start": 790.92, "end": 794.6, "text": " So that computer was made for using at home." }, { "start": 794.6, "end": 796.68, "text": " That's why they call it like this." }, { "start": 796.68, "end": 803.96, "text": " I have the question, could you as a Soviet household just buy one of those computers?" }, { "start": 803.96, "end": 805.48, "text": " It's much more complicated." }, { "start": 805.48, "end": 813.08, "text": " They were made for households and they were in Elektronika shops so that electronic devices" }, { "start": 813.08, "end": 817.48, "text": " were sold in a special Elektronika shops with the same name." }, { "start": 817.48, "end": 821.48, "text": " But of course, it's not like now." }, { "start": 821.48, "end": 823.92, "text": " It was as a communist way." }, { "start": 823.92, "end": 831.6, "text": " You had to order it and wait and in some places if they're far or not." }, { "start": 831.6, "end": 836.2, "text": " So in big cities it was shorter waiting time." }, { "start": 836.2, "end": 839.28, "text": " In farther places it was longer waiting time." }, { "start": 839.28, "end": 841.48, "text": " It could be even a year." }, { "start": 841.48, "end": 845.92, "text": " And then they order it so and you get it." }, { "start": 845.92, "end": 850.24, "text": " About a price, so it's also you had to pay for it." }, { "start": 850.24, "end": 853.44, "text": " About a price it was 600 rubles." }, { "start": 853.44, "end": 862.76, "text": " Now it says nothing because in the communist country the currency was different, but it's" }, { "start": 862.76, "end": 865.64, "text": " better to calculate for the salaries." }, { "start": 865.64, "end": 872.04, "text": " It's maybe three and a half monthly engineer salaries." }, { "start": 872.04, "end": 878.04, "text": " So to buy this, the person had to pay three and a half their monthly income." }, { "start": 878.04, "end": 884.24, "text": " I am tempted to look up what a Volga did cost, like the car." }, { "start": 884.24, "end": 889.6, "text": " Because that was a luxury car in Russia." }, { "start": 889.6, "end": 892.76, "text": " Volga was really expensive." }, { "start": 892.76, "end": 897.56, "text": " I know that Lada, my grandpa had it." }, { "start": 897.56, "end": 911.4, "text": " And I remember that he said it was 5000 rubles and it's around 25 monthly incomes." }, { "start": 911.4, "end": 913.44, "text": " It's like two years." }, { "start": 913.44, "end": 917.84, "text": " You need to work, don't eat and then you can get Lada." }, { "start": 917.84, "end": 924.04, "text": " Then you could get Lada, but Volga was maybe it was even 10,000 so it's four years." }, { "start": 924.04, "end": 925.8, "text": " We had them as taxi cars here." }, { "start": 925.8, "end": 926.8, "text": " Oh really?" }, { "start": 926.8, "end": 928.32, "text": " In Germany there were the taxi cars." }, { "start": 928.32, "end": 930.88, "text": " They seemed very luxury." }, { "start": 930.88, "end": 934.0, "text": " They were mostly used as a taxi car." }, { "start": 934.0, "end": 938.0, "text": " They were not used so much just by people." }, { "start": 938.0, "end": 943.24, "text": " So people didn't buy them because they were expensive." }, { "start": 943.24, "end": 949.24, "text": " Which brings us back to the home computer, which was expensive, but did people buy it?" }, { "start": 949.24, "end": 953.04, "text": " I mean obviously you had one, so someone must have bought them." }, { "start": 953.04, "end": 954.76, "text": " Or where did they go?" }, { "start": 954.76, "end": 960.12, "text": " Did they go to educational schools or where could you find them?" }, { "start": 960.12, "end": 961.12, "text": " People bought them." }, { "start": 961.12, "end": 962.4, "text": " People who are interested." }, { "start": 962.4, "end": 970.6, "text": " So that was not for everyone because the computer was not so easy to use because of this tape" }, { "start": 970.6, "end": 972.12, "text": " recorder." }, { "start": 972.12, "end": 974.08, "text": " You needed to connect the tape recorder." }, { "start": 974.08, "end": 977.28, "text": " So that was not for zero level." }, { "start": 977.28, "end": 989.16, "text": " And usually people who got them, they were maybe educated but also interested in computers." }, { "start": 989.16, "end": 990.52, "text": " They were engineers." }, { "start": 990.52, "end": 996.0, "text": " They were also radio emitters." }, { "start": 996.0, "end": 999.6, "text": " Mostly the community came from people who were making radio devices." }, { "start": 999.6, "end": 1001.8, "text": " So they needed to understand something." }, { "start": 1001.8, "end": 1009.56, "text": " But those people, they just got, they ordered them, they waited, they paid this money, they" }, { "start": 1009.56, "end": 1016.44, "text": " may keep some money if they wanted to buy their computer for some time and they got" }, { "start": 1016.44, "end": 1017.44, "text": " it." }, { "start": 1017.44, "end": 1028.12, "text": " Also, those computers were sent to schools because why did they start producing computers?" }, { "start": 1028.12, "end": 1038.48, "text": " Because they wanted to computerize the country and they wanted people to learn how to use" }, { "start": 1038.48, "end": 1040.08, "text": " computers." }, { "start": 1040.08, "end": 1044.72, "text": " And they decided to make the subject informatics in school." }, { "start": 1044.72, "end": 1047.8, "text": " It was 1984." }, { "start": 1047.8, "end": 1051.6, "text": " And after that, they started sending computers to school." }, { "start": 1051.6, "end": 1055.56, "text": " They started organizing computer classes in schools." }, { "start": 1055.56, "end": 1061.68, "text": " In schools, in universities, in college, we can say the college." }, { "start": 1061.68, "end": 1070.04, "text": " So that the place where people were, the place where people got a professional education." }, { "start": 1070.04, "end": 1074.64, "text": " So they mostly, it also depended on the place." }, { "start": 1074.64, "end": 1080.84, "text": " In some places, far from civilization, very far places, they didn't have computers." }, { "start": 1080.84, "end": 1086.8, "text": " But they tried to send them to universities, to the bigger cities, to colleges and to schools." }, { "start": 1086.8, "end": 1091.0, "text": " So where people first time saw the computer." }, { "start": 1091.0, "end": 1094.96, "text": " I also saw the computer first time in the school." }, { "start": 1094.96, "end": 1097.8, "text": " My school got that computer class." }, { "start": 1097.8, "end": 1102.88, "text": " I don't remember when I started school in 1988." }, { "start": 1102.88, "end": 1104.76, "text": " I think it was already there." }, { "start": 1104.76, "end": 1110.24, "text": " But they got it just a year ago or maybe even the same year when I started." }, { "start": 1110.24, "end": 1113.32, "text": " But I was a kid and I was interested." }, { "start": 1113.32, "end": 1119.92, "text": " And then I came to, my mom and me came to the teacher and she asked me if I can come" }, { "start": 1119.92, "end": 1124.84, "text": " to use, to like to try something with a computer." }, { "start": 1124.84, "end": 1131.68, "text": " So the people who could not get them, they first used computers in schools." }, { "start": 1131.68, "end": 1133.64, "text": " So that's also giving us a timeframe." }, { "start": 1133.64, "end": 1139.36, "text": " So I'm looking at a document that you presented at VCFB, which I photographed." }, { "start": 1139.36, "end": 1143.32, "text": " So I can always cheat and look ahead what is coming." }, { "start": 1143.32, "end": 1149.28, "text": " So they started developing it in the early 80s, like 83, and then they introduced them" }, { "start": 1149.28, "end": 1155.88, "text": " in 85, which I mean, the Soviet Union, even more than Russia, was a very, very big country." }, { "start": 1155.88, "end": 1159.56, "text": " So until it comes to the last corner, it takes a while." }, { "start": 1159.56, "end": 1164.32, "text": " Also, because it's so big, the numbers have to be much higher than, let's say, Eastern" }, { "start": 1164.32, "end": 1168.68, "text": " Germany, where if you have like 10,000 computers, it's like quite a lot." }, { "start": 1168.68, "end": 1172.76, "text": " But if you have 10,000 computers in Soviet Russia, it's like nothing." }, { "start": 1172.76, "end": 1175.64, "text": " So they produced quite a lot of these devices." }, { "start": 1175.64, "end": 1177.68, "text": " Actually, not." }, { "start": 1177.68, "end": 1183.08, "text": " They produced, I don't remember exact number, but it's also somewhere in it." }, { "start": 1183.08, "end": 1184.68, "text": " It says here, that's what I mean." }, { "start": 1184.68, "end": 1191.76, "text": " It's over 100 and I think 125,000." }, { "start": 1191.76, "end": 1195.32, "text": " I think it's 162,000." }, { "start": 1195.32, "end": 1196.32, "text": " Around 100, 100." }, { "start": 1196.32, "end": 1198.52, "text": " That sounds like a lot to me." }, { "start": 1198.52, "end": 1205.6, "text": " It's a lot, but the country had 250 million people living there." }, { "start": 1205.6, "end": 1211.88, "text": " But that number is only for electronic BKE computers, but they were other ones." }, { "start": 1211.88, "end": 1215.28, "text": " But they were not so..." }, { "start": 1215.28, "end": 1220.24, "text": " They were a bit less popular, but they were factories producing only them." }, { "start": 1220.24, "end": 1225.24, "text": " And I tried to find more accurate numbers, but I couldn't." }, { "start": 1225.24, "end": 1231.12, "text": " So we can't say exact amount of computers produced now." }, { "start": 1231.12, "end": 1240.28, "text": " But if even we double it, if we say that they were 160,000 of BKEs and 160,000 of other" }, { "start": 1240.28, "end": 1244.68, "text": " ones, that could be 320." }, { "start": 1244.68, "end": 1247.56, "text": " And that's for that big country." }, { "start": 1247.56, "end": 1249.16, "text": " It's really not so much." }, { "start": 1249.16, "end": 1250.16, "text": " Okay." }, { "start": 1250.16, "end": 1255.2, "text": " So I'm probably a bit off with that because I just read that the Eastern German" }, { "start": 1255.2, "end": 1262.68, "text": " home computers that they had, like the KC85, and I had these numbers in my head that were" }, { "start": 1262.68, "end": 1266.68, "text": " under 50,000 pieces of them were produced." }, { "start": 1266.68, "end": 1271.76, "text": " So of course, it sounded like much if I see 162, but of course, you're right." }, { "start": 1271.76, "end": 1272.76, "text": " If there's..." }, { "start": 1272.76, "end": 1278.44, "text": " Yeah, it's nothing compared to the number of people that should be catered with these" }, { "start": 1278.44, "end": 1281.68, "text": " computers, especially if they're in schools and all that." }, { "start": 1281.68, "end": 1287.96, "text": " But they started producing another one for schools, that U-KNC, which I had also, it's" }, { "start": 1287.96, "end": 1290.88, "text": " not working, mine is not working." }, { "start": 1290.88, "end": 1295.8, "text": " And they produced 300,000 of those, but those were sent only to schools." }, { "start": 1295.8, "end": 1298.76, "text": " So then they started when they made it." }, { "start": 1298.76, "end": 1303.56, "text": " I think those ones were for homes and those ones were for schools." }, { "start": 1303.56, "end": 1309.52, "text": " So that's how they maybe fixed this problem and more schools got computers." }, { "start": 1309.52, "end": 1310.52, "text": " Okay." }, { "start": 1310.52, "end": 1311.52, "text": " Right." }, { "start": 1311.52, "end": 1317.32, "text": " And not only them were in schools, they were different models of those computers and some" }, { "start": 1317.32, "end": 1319.28, "text": " of them were in other schools." }, { "start": 1319.28, "end": 1322.04, "text": " So they were not completely compatible." }, { "start": 1322.04, "end": 1325.8, "text": " Like each school could have their own computers." }, { "start": 1325.8, "end": 1328.8, "text": " Each school could have their own software or write." }, { "start": 1328.8, "end": 1333.8, "text": " Teachers could write this software, could make this software at their school." }, { "start": 1333.8, "end": 1335.48, "text": " And they were not compatible." }, { "start": 1335.48, "end": 1343.48, "text": " And like the teaching process was quite complicated because I read about that they were textbooks," }, { "start": 1343.48, "end": 1348.08, "text": " but they were different textbooks for different computers and which computers had a particular" }, { "start": 1348.08, "end": 1350.44, "text": " school." }, { "start": 1350.44, "end": 1357.56, "text": " So I heard this, someone said this and it stuck with me, that in the 80s with computers" }, { "start": 1357.56, "end": 1365.76, "text": " in the West in the US, sometimes the state acted like or they acted like socialists," }, { "start": 1365.76, "end": 1370.56, "text": " like communists with sharing all this with the networks, with the university connecting" }, { "start": 1370.56, "end": 1375.2, "text": " with all having one standard and that the Soviets behaved like capitalists because" }, { "start": 1375.2, "end": 1379.28, "text": " they were always in, you know, there were several different models that you couldn't" }, { "start": 1379.28, "end": 1383.88, "text": " buy and they had like, they were in opposition to each other and competition." }, { "start": 1383.88, "end": 1387.88, "text": " The companies were in competition with each other to one up themselves or to have these" }, { "start": 1387.88, "end": 1393.96, "text": " computers and that it was like, yeah, it's like the opposite of what you would expect" }, { "start": 1393.96, "end": 1397.4, "text": " it to be, you know, because if you look from the outside, you would say, okay, this is" }, { "start": 1397.4, "end": 1401.28, "text": " a communist country and they have a centralized economy." }, { "start": 1401.28, "end": 1402.28, "text": " Everything is centralized." }, { "start": 1402.28, "end": 1403.6, "text": " There's someone is saying all this." }, { "start": 1403.6, "end": 1405.0, "text": " So why don't they centralize this?" }, { "start": 1405.0, "end": 1406.84, "text": " Why don't they say this is our computer?" }, { "start": 1406.84, "end": 1408.24, "text": " But they didn't." }, { "start": 1408.24, "end": 1410.76, "text": " And everybody seemed to build their own computer." }, { "start": 1410.76, "end": 1417.68, "text": " Yeah, they didn't and they, not everyone, they were a couple of known models." }, { "start": 1417.68, "end": 1423.44, "text": " I think they were like less in 80s." }, { "start": 1423.44, "end": 1426.56, "text": " They were really few models of computers." }, { "start": 1426.56, "end": 1433.52, "text": " There were some computers based on Intel 8080, 8 bit computers and we gave 16 bit computers." }, { "start": 1433.52, "end": 1442.36, "text": " But later, when already, I think it was 1987 when they allowed cooperatives, when they" }, { "start": 1442.36, "end": 1453.28, "text": " allowed a kind of a private small companies or so and they started making clothes of everything" }, { "start": 1453.28, "end": 1460.72, "text": " and each that small company, company, I mean, like three people in the room, they sold their" }, { "start": 1460.72, "end": 1462.44, "text": " their own computer." }, { "start": 1462.44, "end": 1469.04, "text": " But of course, they, what they started from, they started from the DIY thing." }, { "start": 1469.04, "end": 1475.96, "text": " They printed the schematic, they printed everything and they said, you can make the computer." }, { "start": 1475.96, "end": 1481.92, "text": " That was the first, I think that was the very first thing how people and that of course needed" }, { "start": 1481.92, "end": 1486.0, "text": " a lot of understanding how to make the computer." }, { "start": 1486.0, "end": 1491.0, "text": " And also they needed to order the chips and it was hard to order them also like waiting" }, { "start": 1491.0, "end": 1493.64, "text": " and stuff like that." }, { "start": 1493.64, "end": 1495.72, "text": " And they were notorious for being faulty." }, { "start": 1495.72, "end": 1499.76, "text": " You didn't order one, you ordered like a pack because you never knew what you got." }, { "start": 1499.76, "end": 1500.76, "text": " Of course." }, { "start": 1500.76, "end": 1501.76, "text": " Yeah." }, { "start": 1501.76, "end": 1508.56, "text": " And they, there were many faulty, I think on the RAM, I had another computer, they say" }, { "start": 1508.56, "end": 1510.6, "text": " it's like, no, it's wrong." }, { "start": 1510.6, "end": 1513.04, "text": " They say the half of them are faulty." }, { "start": 1513.04, "end": 1518.64, "text": " If you need two, you need to order at least four, but better to order 10 and the two will" }, { "start": 1518.64, "end": 1519.64, "text": " work." }, { "start": 1519.64, "end": 1525.92, "text": " Like this and there were really a lot of faulty things." }, { "start": 1525.92, "end": 1531.6, "text": " But because they didn't want to throw them out, they tried to use them even the faulty." }, { "start": 1531.6, "end": 1533.64, "text": " They tried to use half, half of them." }, { "start": 1533.64, "end": 1540.44, "text": " For example, if there's a RAM, which is 16K, but if it's faulty, if 8K is working, then" }, { "start": 1540.44, "end": 1542.48, "text": " I can put it as 8K." }, { "start": 1542.48, "end": 1546.84, "text": " So how they did some of those computers, I think have those faulty." }, { "start": 1546.84, "end": 1550.64, "text": " But that was a usual thing to do in the best two and they knew they were faulty." }, { "start": 1550.64, "end": 1551.64, "text": " They also did that." }, { "start": 1551.64, "end": 1554.52, "text": " But as we are at the technical aspect, so now what do we have?" }, { "start": 1554.52, "end": 1561.68, "text": " We have this electronic BK0010, yeah, not underscore, but 01." }, { "start": 1561.68, "end": 1567.2, "text": " Now the CPU is, as you just said, it is 16 bit." }, { "start": 1567.2, "end": 1570.4, "text": " What is this, what kind of CPU is this?" }, { "start": 1570.4, "end": 1575.6, "text": " That's a Soviet replica of PDP11 compatible CPU." }, { "start": 1575.6, "end": 1582.92, "text": " So they chose the PDP11 architecture because it's a CPU, it's a chip." }, { "start": 1582.92, "end": 1590.24, "text": " I think it's closer to LSI11, it's closer to the smaller PDP computers, but the architecture" }, { "start": 1590.24, "end": 1595.92, "text": " is PDP11." }, { "start": 1595.92, "end": 1601.48, "text": " It doesn't have a floating point commands." }, { "start": 1601.48, "end": 1613.6, "text": " But as I remember, it has a full set of commands which original PDP11, I think 003 has." }, { "start": 1613.6, "end": 1618.6, "text": " Maybe it has even one or two more." }, { "start": 1618.6, "end": 1623.56, "text": " It doesn't have multiplication division and it doesn't have a floating point commands." }, { "start": 1623.56, "end": 1630.92, "text": " So that's a PDP11, not the lowest one, I think I can say." }, { "start": 1630.92, "end": 1633.32, "text": " But maybe the lower one." }, { "start": 1633.32, "end": 1639.04, "text": " And it doesn't have a memory, how to say, memory management." }, { "start": 1639.04, "end": 1645.52, "text": " So it just has a flat memory addressing." }, { "start": 1645.52, "end": 1653.48, "text": " The bigger, larger PDPs, I think PDP11, 40, 70, they have memory management that memory" }, { "start": 1653.48, "end": 1659.44, "text": " different modes like a user mode, kernel mode like we say now, but this one, it of course" }, { "start": 1659.44, "end": 1660.44, "text": " doesn't hurt." }, { "start": 1660.44, "end": 1665.36, "text": " But it's clocked at three megahertz, which isn't too shabby for the ADS." }, { "start": 1665.36, "end": 1668.0, "text": " And it's quite good." }, { "start": 1668.0, "end": 1672.2, "text": " And that PDP11 architecture, it's very simple." }, { "start": 1672.2, "end": 1676.22, "text": " And maybe why they chose it." }, { "start": 1676.22, "end": 1682.44, "text": " So obviously they copied the CPU from the West." }, { "start": 1682.44, "end": 1688.16, "text": " But you told me where VCFB, that the CPU is in this computer twice." }, { "start": 1688.16, "end": 1689.16, "text": " Why is it?" }, { "start": 1689.16, "end": 1691.6, "text": " No, in this computer, there is one CPU." }, { "start": 1691.6, "end": 1696.48, "text": " Two CPUs are in school, that school computer, UKNC." }, { "start": 1696.48, "end": 1701.24, "text": " And that's a very peculiar configuration they invented." }, { "start": 1701.24, "end": 1704.0, "text": " They put one CPU for computing." }, { "start": 1704.0, "end": 1714.12, "text": " So the main CPU, which runs the program, running on the computer, and the second CPU is managing" }, { "start": 1714.12, "end": 1716.12, "text": " the peripheric devices." }, { "start": 1716.12, "end": 1722.84, "text": " Like it's managing video, it's managing keyboard, it's managing, I think, also timer or something" }, { "start": 1722.84, "end": 1723.84, "text": " else." }, { "start": 1723.84, "end": 1725.78, "text": " So that configuration is very weird." }, { "start": 1725.78, "end": 1727.2, "text": " Everyone finds it weird." }, { "start": 1727.2, "end": 1730.16, "text": " And the programming for this, it's quite complicated." }, { "start": 1730.16, "end": 1737.24, "text": " And they actually read that they are connected only via the parallel port chip." }, { "start": 1737.24, "end": 1741.56, "text": " So you can send, you can exchange the data." }, { "start": 1741.56, "end": 1745.84, "text": " They even don't seem to have the same bus." }, { "start": 1745.84, "end": 1750.68, "text": " They have their, each of the CPUs has their own bus." }, { "start": 1750.68, "end": 1753.36, "text": " It's compatible with Q-Bus from DEC." }, { "start": 1753.36, "end": 1759.16, "text": " But they have this chip, which allows the CPU to communicate." }, { "start": 1759.16, "end": 1762.4, "text": " So where two buses kind of meet." }, { "start": 1762.4, "end": 1763.92, "text": " And that's also unique." }, { "start": 1763.92, "end": 1767.48, "text": " So is it, like, can I imagine it like this?" }, { "start": 1767.48, "end": 1772.52, "text": " So the small ones, like the BK computers, they are in the classroom and the teacher has one" }, { "start": 1772.52, "end": 1776.44, "text": " of those bigger computers with those two CPUs or is this completely different?" }, { "start": 1776.44, "end": 1781.76, "text": " It could work like this, but mostly when they invented this, who can say that computer with" }, { "start": 1781.76, "end": 1788.44, "text": " two CPUs, the whole class had them, even the teacher and the students." }, { "start": 1788.44, "end": 1791.52, "text": " But the teacher had a floppy controller and a printer." }, { "start": 1791.52, "end": 1796.28, "text": " And sometimes there, I think, gets it." }, { "start": 1796.28, "end": 1798.64, "text": " And that network, so they were connected." }, { "start": 1798.69, "end": 1806.45, "text": " to a network, a kind of a network. And the teacher computer had that main network controller" }, { "start": 1806.45, "end": 1814.45, "text": " which could control all those student computers. So, but I remember maybe there was a configuration" }, { "start": 1814.45, "end": 1821.33, "text": " when the teacher had this, it's also a school computer with two CPUs and students had this," }, { "start": 1822.05, "end": 1830.45, "text": " but mostly they put, with those they put that Devaka, that bigger sister of this," }, { "start": 1830.45, "end": 1838.05, "text": " that computer which was used for organizations. Ah, okay, so I mix them a bit up because the whole" }, { "start": 1838.05, "end": 1842.53, "text": " timeline and also if you look from the outside into Russian computers, it's quite complicated" }, { "start": 1842.53, "end": 1847.97, "text": " because there is not many sources in the English speaking web about all of this, at least that I" }, { "start": 1847.97, "end": 1852.21, "text": " know of. Do you have any hints? Because we could put it in the show notes. So, if you have something" }, { "start": 1852.21, "end": 1857.09, "text": " that you could share like where we could find some info that would be great, I would put that in" }, { "start": 1857.09, "end": 1864.05, "text": " show notes. I think I can share, I made my own timeline. I tried to collect this information" }, { "start": 1864.05, "end": 1870.69, "text": " and made my own timeline when it started and it started, there is an urban legend, I can also tell" }, { "start": 1870.69, "end": 1877.57, "text": " it when it started and then I can send it and you can share it because there are really different" }, { "start": 1878.05, "end": 1884.93, "text": " because they have different computers and they were produced in parallel. For example," }, { "start": 1884.93, "end": 1897.01, "text": " this BK was produced, I mean BK10 was produced from 80, 95 until 1990, then they started BK11." }, { "start": 1897.01, "end": 1903.49, "text": " You can say that school computer, they started producing it in 87 and until" }, { "start": 1905.01, "end": 1913.41, "text": " later, until 95 even and DVK, those bigger organization computers, they had also different" }, { "start": 1913.41, "end": 1918.21, "text": " models and they were produced some models in parallel, also dependent on the factory." }, { "start": 1918.21, "end": 1927.81, "text": " So, there was a DVK123 even 4 and at 4, I think it had already, I don't remember about" }, { "start": 1927.81, "end": 1933.25, "text": " the amount of CPUs, but it had that memory management and the different modes and the" }, { "start": 1933.25, "end": 1939.65, "text": " multitasking, so it was quite powerful thing. So, that's why the timeline is so complicated." }, { "start": 1939.65, "end": 1946.69, "text": " And then I just talked about this PDP11 compatible computers because other computers," }, { "start": 1946.69, "end": 1952.05, "text": " they had the different timelines and there was mostly, I think one computer produced from" }, { "start": 1952.05, "end": 1959.17, "text": " 1980 something until Soviet Union was broken. So, what's the urban legend?" }, { "start": 1959.81, "end": 1969.89, "text": " As an urban legend that the Soviet military found a sank American submarine and there were" }, { "start": 1969.89, "end": 1975.25, "text": " two PDP8 computers on the board and they got them, scraped it and then made a copy." }, { "start": 1975.25, "end": 1981.73, "text": " That's an urban, no one knows if it's true or false, that's why I say that's a legend." }, { "start": 1981.73, "end": 1989.65, "text": " How they started with PDP architecture. I heard on the UBCFP, you told me another legend." }, { "start": 1989.65, "end": 1998.05, "text": " And that one is about the Soviet computers, that part of them had a significant amount of gold" }, { "start": 1998.05, "end": 2000.77, "text": " in them, so they were all scrapped, so there's none left." }, { "start": 2000.77, "end": 2005.73, "text": " That's not a legend. Unfortunately, that's completely true, that's not a legend because" }, { "start": 2005.73, "end": 2011.49, "text": " for this no one knows if they really found a submarine or not and that was confidential," }, { "start": 2011.49, "end": 2018.61, "text": " they classified, but this is not the legend. This computer, it doesn't have so much gold." }, { "start": 2018.61, "end": 2024.13, "text": " So the BK doesn't have it? BK have, but it still has capacitors made of palladium." }, { "start": 2024.13, "end": 2031.17, "text": " For example, if we cut all capacitors from this computer, there will be two or two and a half" }, { "start": 2031.17, "end": 2038.45, "text": " grams of palladium and that of course can be sold, but DVK that computer made for organizations," }, { "start": 2038.45, "end": 2046.85, "text": " they really had a lot of gold. One of them, I think the DVK two, so one and two," }, { "start": 2046.85, "end": 2052.13, "text": " they were the most valuable three and four, they had less. I think they started already," }, { "start": 2052.13, "end": 2056.29, "text": " they already learned how to produce cheaper things and they started to put cheaper things" }, { "start": 2056.29, "end": 2064.45, "text": " into them. But for example, I especially found that DVK two, it had the board and that cables and" }, { "start": 2064.45, "end": 2072.61, "text": " that stuff, 72 grams of gold, 120 grams of silver and some platinum and palladium." }, { "start": 2072.61, "end": 2079.49, "text": " And of course, a case was made from iron and the cables, I mean the connecting cables were made" }, { "start": 2079.49, "end": 2085.33, "text": " from copper and of course you can imagine how much money you can get if you scrape this computer and" }, { "start": 2085.33, "end": 2092.61, "text": " I think the whole village could eat for months or so. So that's a Soviet computer for you," }, { "start": 2092.61, "end": 2099.57, "text": " which is even worth its money after decades, you know? And in the West, I mean, look at your phone," }, { "start": 2099.57, "end": 2103.49, "text": " it's not going to be worth anything in three years, but if you had such a computer," }, { "start": 2103.49, "end": 2108.85, "text": " it might even be worth more than when you bought it. So even if it's not working?" }, { "start": 2108.85, "end": 2117.09, "text": " Yeah, doesn't matter. I don't know about the PDP original PDP, I think they also have a lot of gold." }, { "start": 2117.09, "end": 2125.89, "text": " They made those, I think for those connectors on the board that, how to say," }, { "start": 2126.45, "end": 2131.89, "text": " those connectors were made of gold. So even not the whole connector, but the gold was on the top" }, { "start": 2131.89, "end": 2139.33, "text": " to reduce the resistance, to prevent the corrosion, so why they used gold. And palladium," }, { "start": 2139.33, "end": 2145.57, "text": " I think it was used for capacitors because it's that capaciting material which worked well" }, { "start": 2145.57, "end": 2152.13, "text": " and it's still working well. Those palladium capacitors, they are very, very good and they work" }, { "start": 2152.13, "end": 2159.49, "text": " for 40 years or even more. So now we went on a wild tangent, but that's power for the course" }, { "start": 2159.49, "end": 2165.49, "text": " on this podcast. So right now we are still at the technical specifications. What's the RAM" }, { "start": 2165.49, "end": 2175.81, "text": " on this computer? This one has 32K of RAM, just 32K and 32K of ROM. They put basic and basic" }, { "start": 2175.81, "end": 2185.25, "text": " was quite big and basic takes three ROM chips and it's 24K and the monitor, like a base monitor" }, { "start": 2185.25, "end": 2193.73, "text": " system, it's 8K and only 32K of ROM of RAM is available. And that's of course not enough for" }, { "start": 2193.73, "end": 2201.89, "text": " programs. That was the bigger, I think that was one of the biggest disadvantage of this computer." }, { "start": 2201.89, "end": 2208.21, "text": " For example, those Intel 8080 computers, they just had a small monitor and basic and they could have" }, { "start": 2208.21, "end": 2217.97, "text": " like 50, the whole RAM and ROM together 64K and if they put just small things, they could have" }, { "start": 2217.97, "end": 2228.53, "text": " more RAM. But this one, it has only 32K. We got basic, but is it Russian basic? Is it too? I" }, { "start": 2228.53, "end": 2235.97, "text": " write my stuff. I mean, I can see the characters on the keyboard and it's Cyrillic and it's also" }, { "start": 2235.97, "end": 2244.45, "text": " not Cyrillic. It's both. It's both and the basic is the same as everyone knows. With normal basic" }, { "start": 2244.45, "end": 2255.09, "text": " commands, so English-based basic, they learned the same basic and also they had vocal from deck" }, { "start": 2255.09, "end": 2262.29, "text": " and they learned the same vocal and even the assembler mnemonics, they are the same as deck has." }, { "start": 2262.29, "end": 2273.41, "text": " So there are no Russian. It's not completely true. There was a Russian, like a computer language" }, { "start": 2273.41, "end": 2280.29, "text": " based on a Russian, but I think that was just for kids and it was not so popular. So they" }, { "start": 2280.29, "end": 2286.13, "text": " they didn't do it. But why would they print the keys on the keyboard, which is terrible," }, { "start": 2286.13, "end": 2291.81, "text": " by the way, I tried it. It's very hard to type. I mean, that is a bit to be expected from a" }, { "start": 2291.81, "end": 2298.77, "text": " Soviet keyboard. Did you really have to now push the buttons? But why would they print the keys" }, { "start": 2298.77, "end": 2308.21, "text": " with Cyrillic when all you do is write in Latin? I think because that the Soviet computer, it" }, { "start": 2308.21, "end": 2317.65, "text": " supports Russian and it need they they were also how to say that computer is not only for programming," }, { "start": 2317.65, "end": 2324.29, "text": " they were also making other stuff on it. Not I am not talking about games now, but for example," }, { "start": 2324.29, "end": 2331.33, "text": " if you work with documents, if you work with some accounting that you need so that it has a Russian" }, { "start": 2332.13, "end": 2342.53, "text": " character set inside, it's like, I forgot how it's called. But yeah, so it has two languages," }, { "start": 2342.53, "end": 2348.85, "text": " it has two character sets, I mean, English and Russian, Latin and Russian. That's why they put" }, { "start": 2348.85, "end": 2357.09, "text": " both to the keyboard so that you could put could type in Russian if you need to. And of course," }, { "start": 2357.09, "end": 2364.69, "text": " not not all people actually almost know people new English in that way to have the computer" }, { "start": 2364.69, "end": 2370.85, "text": " completely in English. And that's also a problem that the software which this computer has, it's" }, { "start": 2370.85, "end": 2379.33, "text": " mostly in Russian. So it has a Russian messages on the screen. And if a person who uses this" }, { "start": 2379.33, "end": 2383.65, "text": " computer doesn't understand a little Russian that it's hard to use. So if you can't read" }, { "start": 2383.65, "end": 2393.01, "text": " your book, you're out of luck. So the peripherals, you can obviously, you said already, you have" }, { "start": 2393.01, "end": 2397.73, "text": " cassettes, so it's a date, but you don't have a data set, you just use a normal cassette player." }, { "start": 2397.73, "end": 2404.85, "text": " Yeah, that was because that was a home computer, it was supposed to use the normal home cassette" }, { "start": 2404.85, "end": 2412.77, "text": " player, tape recorder and the tapes like this, and the normal TV, which people use for watching," }, { "start": 2412.77, "end": 2419.01, "text": " like TV programs. Some of those computers had just an antenna output and you put just to," }, { "start": 2419.01, "end": 2428.05, "text": " you put a cable to an antenna. And this computer has a video output RGB. And it was also not so" }, { "start": 2428.05, "end": 2435.81, "text": " easy because not all TVs had them. And on the TV, people needed to solder to connect this computer." }, { "start": 2435.81, "end": 2443.25, "text": " But the idea was that people just got this as a computer. So the board is inside and the keyboard" }, { "start": 2443.25, "end": 2450.93, "text": " and the power supply and they didn't need anything else. They supposed to have the cassette player" }, { "start": 2450.93, "end": 2456.45, "text": " for listening to music and they supposed to have a TV for watching and they could use this computer." }, { "start": 2456.45, "end": 2462.85, "text": " I can't imagine it with a Vef recorder. I don't know. Vef, do you said they produce radios? I don't" }, { "start": 2462.85, "end": 2468.61, "text": " know if they produce tape. I think they did. I think they did. And then as a TV, you have the" }, { "start": 2468.61, "end": 2475.65, "text": " Unost, which is a small, very round, small black. I used to have one of those. So then you could" }, { "start": 2475.65, "end": 2480.37, "text": " you could watch it and it's on the Unost, it would be black and white, but the computer can produce" }, { "start": 2480.37, "end": 2486.05, "text": " color. This computer has four colors. Wow. It can produce color, but it has only four colors," }, { "start": 2486.93, "end": 2495.09, "text": " red, green, blue and black. So there is no white. If you turn on the color, if you switch to the" }, { "start": 2495.09, "end": 2501.01, "text": " color, but how to say switch this computer has just that it has two separate outputs for black" }, { "start": 2501.01, "end": 2508.77, "text": " and white and color on the black and white, letters will be white on the color. The letters will be" }, { "start": 2509.49, "end": 2515.97, "text": " red, this green or red. So the red is the main color, that red is the color one." }, { "start": 2515.97, "end": 2523.33, "text": " I don't know why they didn't make white. It cannot display yellow. So this computer," }, { "start": 2523.33, "end": 2531.25, "text": " as it is, cannot display the flag of the Soviet Union. That would have been like a case for the" }, { "start": 2531.25, "end": 2538.21, "text": " Gulag for the engineers if that would have been 30 years before. But of course, there is a life hack." }, { "start": 2538.21, "end": 2544.85, "text": " Okay. If you put a, there are some demos and you can see it even on the demos. I usually show the" }, { "start": 2544.85, "end": 2550.37, "text": " demos and say this computer has only four colors and people don't believe this because if you put" }, { "start": 2550.37, "end": 2558.05, "text": " a dot of red and a dot of blue, you will see violet. If you put a dot of red and a dot of green" }, { "start": 2558.05, "end": 2564.93, "text": " together, you will see like maybe kind of a yellowish color. And there are demos which really show" }, { "start": 2565.89, "end": 2572.53, "text": " many colors, but using only four, they just put the dots together and that's how it's," }, { "start": 2572.53, "end": 2581.25, "text": " on the demos it works and even the games, some games use it, that life hack. But this one," }, { "start": 2581.25, "end": 2587.49, "text": " it has only four colors, but the next one, 11, it had a palette switching. So each palette had four" }, { "start": 2587.49, "end": 2596.37, "text": " colors, had four colors, but you could switch them and the colors were, I think, hard, like" }, { "start": 2596.37, "end": 2605.41, "text": " hard-coated. I think palette one was the same and palette two had a kind of the color cyan and" }, { "start": 2605.41, "end": 2612.45, "text": " magenta or, I don't remember all of them, but there is a, there is a demo which shows all of them" }, { "start": 2613.41, "end": 2619.81, "text": " and you could switch them and really that was like a revolution of color. People could make the demos" }, { "start": 2619.81, "end": 2628.53, "text": " mostly the photographic quality. As you're talking about demos, so there obviously was kind of" }, { "start": 2628.53, "end": 2634.53, "text": " a scene of people who produced software for that. I could imagine in the subject union," }, { "start": 2634.53, "end": 2640.05, "text": " there was not a software distribution house like and they were selling it in the shop," }, { "start": 2640.05, "end": 2644.05, "text": " in the shop, the software. Where did you get your software from? There were not" }, { "start": 2644.05, "end": 2650.45, "text": " distributing house and there were no market. There were magazines like paper magazines when" }, { "start": 2650.45, "end": 2658.05, "text": " I think it was a bit later, it was already end of 80s and maybe 90s and the first" }, { "start": 2658.05, "end": 2667.09, "text": " publications about computers were in the radio magazine. The magazine was made for radio emitters" }, { "start": 2667.09, "end": 2674.69, "text": " who made radio devices and before they organized the magazines about computers, they were public," }, { "start": 2674.69, "end": 2681.73, "text": " they were putting that stuff to the radio magazines and there were people who were making" }, { "start": 2681.73, "end": 2690.21, "text": " software at home and they could send like an ad to the magazine. I am making games" }, { "start": 2690.93, "end": 2698.45, "text": " that the picture like a black and white picture or just information. You can send me five" }, { "start": 2698.45, "end": 2705.49, "text": " rules by post and you get the tape full of games so that how the software was distributed." }, { "start": 2705.49, "end": 2711.73, "text": " Of course they were, I can't say computer class but maybe there were some interest clubs" }, { "start": 2711.73, "end": 2719.57, "text": " where people met and they also exchanged the software but they were like people into computers so" }, { "start": 2719.57, "end": 2725.17, "text": " they were all making something. Yeah, I mean it makes sense because nobody except for those" }, { "start": 2725.17, "end": 2730.13, "text": " people had a computer. I mean if you had such a computer you were determined to get something going." }, { "start": 2730.13, "end": 2735.41, "text": " This is not something you should, I mean and if you see it in the west you maybe you say oh" }, { "start": 2735.41, "end": 2740.53, "text": " I would love to have a computer for Christmas because all my friends have a computer and maybe" }, { "start": 2740.53, "end": 2745.09, "text": " when Easter rolls around you go like okay I don't use that computer anymore, I want to do" }, { "start": 2745.09, "end": 2749.81, "text": " something different but in the Soviet Union or E-Sem block in general because it was so scarce" }, { "start": 2749.81, "end": 2756.85, "text": " that all the you know you really had to want that and if you do you take care of getting software" }, { "start": 2756.85, "end": 2762.45, "text": " getting like people get to know people who also have it to share with them. Yes that's true so that" }, { "start": 2762.45, "end": 2771.17, "text": " mostly people who really wanted to have this they got this and some people were using this" }, { "start": 2771.17, "end": 2778.45, "text": " also engineers also to make their thesis in the university that what those home computers were" }, { "start": 2778.45, "end": 2784.21, "text": " used for. And as you said that there is a demo scene or I mean is there still a scene for this?" }, { "start": 2784.21, "end": 2794.37, "text": " There is, there is a they participate in the global demo scene they send their their demos to" }, { "start": 2795.17, "end": 2804.13, "text": " the bigger contests even international even if people don't have those computers but they accept" }, { "start": 2804.13, "end": 2812.45, "text": " everything and there is a Russian speaking community which is it's a bit bigger than demo" }, { "start": 2812.45, "end": 2822.77, "text": " scene but they also make demos and they show those demos on the contests they I don't know if they" }, { "start": 2822.77, "end": 2830.05, "text": " now it's harder to come here I mean to Europe but I remember that people even came to Europe to" }, { "start": 2830.05, "end": 2838.93, "text": " show their demos but usually they have their own demo parties to show demos but for example if I" }, { "start": 2838.93, "end": 2845.41, "text": " make a demo I can bring this computer to a demo party in Berlin or in other city and show this demo." }, { "start": 2846.61, "end": 2853.25, "text": " And I also see that a poet.net which is like an online resource for the demo scene." }, { "start": 2853.25, "end": 2860.13, "text": " Yeah they send you can search. I will put that in the show notes there is pages upon pages of" }, { "start": 2860.13, "end": 2868.21, "text": " of the demos and there's also there's an actual that's one from 2024 and it's it's called BK3D Arena" }, { "start": 2868.21, "end": 2875.49, "text": " from Dimitri Pratsim. That's a game. That's a game. That's a game but it's there because it's a" }, { "start": 2875.49, "end": 2889.09, "text": " 3D game like a very simple kind of doom when you move and hit some enemies. The problem is that" }, { "start": 2889.09, "end": 2895.89, "text": " it's a very small it's only 8k I think I don't remember I have it I even played it but the idea" }, { "start": 2895.89, "end": 2904.21, "text": " was the question which Dimitri asked himself am I able to make a 3D game on the BK. I think that's" }, { "start": 2904.21, "end": 2912.77, "text": " the first and that's not only one game produced in 2020 in 2020s. There are some more games produced" }, { "start": 2912.77, "end": 2918.69, "text": " for example there's a clone of Pong. It's called Pong Charged. It's actually the new Pong but" }, { "start": 2918.69, "end": 2925.09, "text": " it's for two people you can connect two joysticks or you play with computer. That was just I think" }, { "start": 2925.09, "end": 2933.57, "text": " one game and this 3D arena and I think something else. Games but people in most cases people make" }, { "start": 2933.57, "end": 2941.89, "text": " demos. The demo is beautiful. A demo you can show just you and people can see what you could make in" }, { "start": 2941.89, "end": 2952.45, "text": " 256 bytes. Which is impressive all the way and then I mean we're getting soonish we're going to be at" }, { "start": 2952.45, "end": 2958.13, "text": " the end of this podcast. We could talk for hours because even right now you said like the joystick." }, { "start": 2958.13, "end": 2963.33, "text": " I saw the joystick and it actually looks like you would you would suppose a Soviet joystick would" }, { "start": 2963.33, "end": 2967.65, "text": " look like. I said terrible this thing looks terrible it doesn't look like fun at all. It's" }, { "start": 2967.65, "end": 2973.73, "text": " like a gray box with a small metal rod which has like a white ball on top. I don't know is it that." }, { "start": 2973.73, "end": 2983.57, "text": " It worked bad because it I actually fixed it. The problem was that that thing with white ball" }, { "start": 2984.53, "end": 2991.81, "text": " it there was a one millimeter more plastic on the right side. When you turn the right" }, { "start": 2991.81, "end": 2999.57, "text": " it was not enough to make a contact and they just needed to cut this one millimeter of the plastic" }, { "start": 2999.57, "end": 3005.49, "text": " to make it working and now it's working really well and I can play games even the modern games" }, { "start": 3005.49, "end": 3011.25, "text": " with this joystick. So that's why I wanted to go I wanted to say this there's a lot of more aspects" }, { "start": 3011.25, "end": 3016.85, "text": " to this than we could cover right here but what we could say is that there is an emulator that's" }, { "start": 3016.85, "end": 3023.17, "text": " what I wanted to get at. You can try this at home and you should there is an emulator we'll link it" }, { "start": 3023.17, "end": 3027.89, "text": " in the show notes so you can try the demos you can try games and you can look for software is that" }, { "start": 3027.89, "end": 3036.53, "text": " right. That's right there is even more than one there are more I think even four emulators" }, { "start": 3037.33, "end": 3044.77, "text": " there that one which is the best it emulates really the best of I think it also has a different" }, { "start": 3044.77, "end": 3051.97, "text": " models of those computers it has a different floppy controllers and but it's in Russian" }, { "start": 3051.97, "end": 3057.17, "text": " the interface is in Russian and it's hard if you can't read Kirelik it's hard to get into it." }, { "start": 3057.17, "end": 3066.21, "text": " There are more which are easier to use and they are in English and I also I I particularly" }, { "start": 3066.21, "end": 3072.53, "text": " mentioned here the emulator for Android which is really really good too it was made by Viktor" }, { "start": 3072.53, "end": 3081.17, "text": " Antonovich Antonovich I think he's from Belarus and it emulates really good on the phone you can" }, { "start": 3081.17, "end": 3088.13, "text": " even use you can look into this at your phone and it supports really a lot and it's in English" }, { "start": 3088.13, "end": 3093.41, "text": " so the interface is in English but the software could be in Russian and that could be hard it" }, { "start": 3093.41, "end": 3101.17, "text": " can be just installed from the Google Store I think it's called PKMU but we can put a link" }, { "start": 3101.17, "end": 3107.41, "text": " we'll put the link in the show notes now if you what I the problem that I had years ago I looked" }, { "start": 3107.41, "end": 3113.97, "text": " into all of this Russian Soviet computer thing because I wanted to know more about the like" }, { "start": 3113.97, "end": 3122.21, "text": " how the history unfolded over there and to all the listeners if you if you are a bit confused by" }, { "start": 3122.21, "end": 3127.33, "text": " all the models and numbers and all that imagine that it's always the same and imagine that on" }, { "start": 3127.33, "end": 3133.57, "text": " Russian but now we have thanks to you Eugene we have it in English but if you want to look this up" }, { "start": 3133.57, "end": 3138.45, "text": " it's it's very complicated because everything is in Russian and even though you have the the the" }, { "start": 3138.45, "end": 3144.21, "text": " translation tools right now that you're disposing it's it's it's complicated anyway to to just to" }, { "start": 3144.21, "end": 3149.25, "text": " make out okay which model was it which company which factory was it produced in the city and all" }, { "start": 3149.25, "end": 3157.17, "text": " of that so where where I wanted to get it is I tried to actually buy one of these I don't want" }, { "start": 3157.17, "end": 3160.85, "text": " I didn't want to have an emulator and that is very complicated in the West isn't it" }, { "start": 3160.85, "end": 3171.73, "text": " it's quite complicated most of them I think 90 or even more than 90 percent of them are I understand" }, { "start": 3171.73, "end": 3177.89, "text": " that many of them were just destroyed and I don't know no one knows how many working computers" }, { "start": 3178.45, "end": 3184.61, "text": " are in the world but more than 90 percent of them are in Russia and it's not possible to get anything" }, { "start": 3184.61, "end": 3192.69, "text": " from Russia now and I actually don't suggest to do this there are some in Baltic countries because" }, { "start": 3192.69, "end": 3198.69, "text": " there was a factory in Shaula in Lithuania producing them maybe they have some the factory" }, { "start": 3198.69, "end": 3206.05, "text": " is not working for a long time I think it's closed since 90s but they could have those computers" }, { "start": 3206.05, "end": 3213.65, "text": " there are some some of on ebay there are people who brought them from post-soviet countries" }, { "start": 3213.65, "end": 3222.05, "text": " also from Ukraine and you can buy them it's not so easy and you could I think it's not possible" }, { "start": 3222.05, "end": 3230.13, "text": " to find the find all models so what that guy could bring he brought or maybe there was a computer class" }, { "start": 3231.01, "end": 3237.81, "text": " they wanted to destroy those computers but that guy paid them and got them it and it's quite" }, { "start": 3237.81, "end": 3246.69, "text": " they're quite expensive here I think the working one is it can be more than 200 euros and it's also" }, { "start": 3246.69, "end": 3254.29, "text": " delivery and but people people even get them I know a guy in the US who got it from Slovakia" }, { "start": 3254.85, "end": 3262.61, "text": " I don't know I think he paid really quite a lot because of the delivery from the EU to the US" }, { "start": 3262.61, "end": 3270.69, "text": " but yeah that's hard to get them now and also if you have one it's not guaranteed to work so for" }, { "start": 3270.69, "end": 3277.49, "text": " example the one that you brought into the office which is looking very nice actually is not working" }, { "start": 3277.49, "end": 3286.69, "text": " because there is stuff in there that is prone to breaking isn't it? Good question there is stuff" }, { "start": 3286.69, "end": 3296.21, "text": " there which is more into but that actually was my fault because the keyboard it has cables and" }, { "start": 3296.21, "end": 3305.25, "text": " those cables were so old and they got physically broken and when I tried to fix them there was a" }, { "start": 3305.25, "end": 3311.81, "text": " static electricity and I broke the keyboard controller which is the ULA and that ULA's" }, { "start": 3311.81, "end": 3318.85, "text": " are not produced for 30 more than 30 years that's a proprietary piece of that's that this computer" }, { "start": 3318.85, "end": 3328.37, "text": " has a proprietary those proprietary ULA's and I think all of those pdp11 compatible computers" }, { "start": 3328.37, "end": 3335.89, "text": " they have it and if that thing is broken it's hard to find them because they're not produced" }, { "start": 3335.89, "end": 3342.77, "text": " at all and people who sell them there are some people selling them they sell leftovers and they" }, { "start": 3342.77, "end": 3350.61, "text": " also can't be sure that that one you get is working of course they are like honest people and if it's" }, { "start": 3350.61, "end": 3357.89, "text": " not working they return your money but it's also hard to get them and they're just of course there" }, { "start": 3357.89, "end": 3367.09, "text": " is a FPGA project but you need to also not only solder so there is no like simple replica that" }, { "start": 3367.09, "end": 3376.85, "text": " project is the guy from Ukraine he reversed engineered them he even cut the case to see the" }, { "start": 3376.85, "end": 3384.53, "text": " the chip through the mic like on the microscope on the microscope and then he of course there was" }, { "start": 3384.53, "end": 3393.73, "text": " there was some documentation from from the factories how it works and from from who made them but" }, { "start": 3393.73, "end": 3398.77, "text": " if you need to make a replica you need to make very very very close you need to understand" }, { "start": 3398.77, "end": 3405.81, "text": " what's happening there and that was really huge work but it's only on the github so to make it" }, { "start": 3405.81, "end": 3413.65, "text": " working on this computer you need not only to solder you need to find put FPGA to kind of adapter" }, { "start": 3413.65, "end": 3420.53, "text": " and put a proper pins and those pins are different for each of them so you cannot make the universal" }, { "start": 3420.53, "end": 3429.17, "text": " one which will work on every so this one has two this one has a keyboard controller and the display" }, { "start": 3429.17, "end": 3435.73, "text": " controller so this display and memory so it's like more like now we call it chipset so that one" }, { "start": 3435.73, "end": 3442.37, "text": " but another one for example that's cool one I think it has six and three are different" }, { "start": 3443.09, "end": 3451.65, "text": " that's the next version of this ula and it's really I actually don't know anyone who can" }, { "start": 3451.65, "end": 3459.89, "text": " who can sell them or get them Eugene Boljakov thank you for coming here and for telling us about" }, { "start": 3459.89, "end": 3467.97, "text": " this and also to people listening so this is a completely new and uncharted from from our" }, { "start": 3467.97, "end": 3473.89, "text": " from our eyes uncharted territory so there's a lot of things you can do with this with community" }, { "start": 3473.89, "end": 3479.73, "text": " work and with people supporting or trying to find out more about these computers and to" }, { "start": 3479.73, "end": 3486.29, "text": " contact people who already have them I think it's worth looking into and I hope that there's coming" }, { "start": 3486.29, "end": 3493.09, "text": " more in like like in English or you know like websites that maybe make this more transparent" }, { "start": 3493.09, "end": 3505.33, "text": " to people or even to try to to to find like ones also now people leave Russia more and some of those" }, { "start": 3505.33, "end": 3513.65, "text": " people who work with computers they live even more I mean and maybe some of them bring that" }, { "start": 3513.65, "end": 3521.33, "text": " computers and there will be more here and maybe there will be a meet-up here there one of well" }, { "start": 3521.33, "end": 3530.21, "text": " known guys in the demo scene he's now in Serbia and and I know he tries to show something there" }, { "start": 3530.21, "end": 3535.65, "text": " and that's also like he's spreading this knowledge and other people are spreading this knowledge" }, { "start": 3535.65, "end": 3544.29, "text": " so that's also I hope we I hope not all of them just will be destroyed for the gold" }, { "start": 3546.29, "end": 3553.25, "text": " so thanks again and also I mean I could imagine to to get to to get back to the beginning of this" }, { "start": 3553.25, "end": 3559.65, "text": " podcast I could imagine a community meeting of people who have electronic devices you don't" }, { "start": 3559.65, "end": 3564.21, "text": " even have to have this computer I mean imagine a meet-up somewhere in Europe where people meet" }, { "start": 3564.21, "end": 3568.53, "text": " who have electronic devices I could come with the electronic a pong or with my clock" }, { "start": 3568.53, "end": 3572.61, "text": " or someone else could come with a small as a game and everybody could share the" }, { "start": 3572.61, "end": 3578.13, "text": " electronic stuff and we would have a nice like communist day I don't know where I'm getting" }, { "start": 3578.13, "end": 3584.53, "text": " with that so it's time to end this podcast Eugene thank you for visiting thank all of you for" }, { "start": 3584.53, "end": 3592.61, "text": " listening and if you have topics suggestions suggestions and also critiques about my English" }, { "start": 3592.61, "end": 3597.25, "text": " not about Eugene's please send them to podcast@guland.de" } ]