[ { "start": 0.015, "end": 5.6, "text": "Dear listeners, you are about to hear my conversation with Bruce Shelley about" }, { "start": 5.6, "end": 6.86, "text": "the creation of Civilization." }, { "start": 7.842, "end": 12.645, "text": "At that time, Bruce Shelley was Sid Meier's right-hand man and assisted him" }, { "start": 12.645, "end": 13.986, "text": "in the creation of Civilization." }, { "start": 14.607, "end": 20.151, "text": "We are going to talk about his previous career, how he got into microprocessing," }, { "start": 20.151, "end": 25.995, "text": "what were his tasks, how did he get into Civilization and how did he work with Sid Meier." }, { "start": 26.035, "end": 29.838, "text": "So the core of our conversation is then the Microprose era and especially Civilization." }, { "start": 30.619, "end": 36.282, "text": "At this point, just a note, as usual, there is a German-language summary at" }, { "start": 36.282, "end": 37.363, "text": "the end of the conversation." }, { "start": 38.424, "end": 41.466, "text": "Bruce Shelley is American, which means we speak English together." }, { "start": 41.826, "end": 46.289, "text": "But for those of you who prefer to hear my German summary, they can jump to" }, { "start": 46.289, "end": 47.73, "text": "the corresponding chapter mark" }, { "start": 47.73, "end": 52.293, "text": "right away. And now have fun with the conversation with Bruce Shelley." }, { "start": 76.721, "end": 81.715, "text": "With me today is renowned game designer Bruce Shelley, who has worked on and" }, { "start": 81.715, "end": 86.639, "text": "helped shape not just one, but several all-time favorite computer games." }, { "start": 87.179, "end": 89.641, "text": "Bruce, I'm very happy to have you on the show today." }, { "start": 89.641, "end": 91.662, "text": "Thanks Chris, my pleasure." }, { "start": 91.662, "end": 95.305, "text": "So which game do you get asked about more often," }, { "start": 95.305, "end": 97.467, "text": "Civilization or Age of Empires?" }, { "start": 97.467, "end": 102.15, "text": "I think Age of Empires more often. Sid Meier was the genius behind" }, { "start": 102.15, "end": 108.035, "text": "Civilization, and I was his assistant. He was the guy who really put that game together." }, { "start": 108.715, "end": 112.598, "text": "I was part of the team at Ensemble Studios that built the Age of Empires franchise," }, { "start": 112.598, "end": 122.225, "text": "and I've run into more people who are familiar with that game over the years" }, { "start": 122.225, "end": 123.426, "text": "than Civilization, probably." }, { "start": 125.007, "end": 129.21, "text": "Today I'd like to cover with you, specifically the creation," }, { "start": 129.21, "end": 130.111, "text": "the making of Civilization." }, { "start": 130.571, "end": 135.475, "text": "But before we go there, let's talk about how you got into the industry." }, { "start": 135.876, "end": 140.218, "text": "Because when we at Stay Forever speak to game designers of that era," }, { "start": 140.218, "end": 145.462, "text": "they almost, to a man and woman, share one biographical data point," }, { "start": 145.462, "end": 150.265, "text": "and that is that they started by programming stuff on their home computer or" }, { "start": 150.265, "end": 152.146, "text": "university terminal or whatnot." }, { "start": 152.587, "end": 156.049, "text": "But you, I understand, have never been a programmer." }, { "start": 156.756, "end": 159.919, "text": "That's correct. I transitioned out of the board game industry." }, { "start": 159.919, "end": 164.642, "text": "So I was a graduate student at the University of Virginia, and a game club there," }, { "start": 164.642, "end": 168.746, "text": "a bunch of us started a publishing company to publish role playing games out" }, { "start": 168.746, "end": 170.447, "text": "of the game club at the University of Virginia." }, { "start": 170.688, "end": 174.43, "text": "And that wasn't my style of game, I was more interested in complicated board" }, { "start": 174.43, "end": 176.372, "text": "games, war games, and things like that." }, { "start": 176.952, "end": 180.014, "text": "But that was an introduction to the game industry. I had to travel to trade" }, { "start": 180.014, "end": 185.139, "text": "shows to help move our products, sell our products. So I met other game developers" }, { "start": 185.139, "end": 188.841, "text": "and then I decided before I got a real job, I would try to make a living in the game industry." }, { "start": 189.422, "end": 193.395, "text": "And I talked to a couple of game companies and I actually got an internship" }, { "start": 193.395, "end": 197.608, "text": "at a well-known American board game company called Simulations Publications" }, { "start": 197.608, "end": 200.931, "text": "Incorporated, which published a magazine called Strategy and Tactics Magazine." }, { "start": 201.372, "end": 205.835, "text": "And it was a game in every magazine. And I worked there for a summer and then" }, { "start": 205.835, "end": 207.436, "text": "their company was struggling." }, { "start": 207.436, "end": 211.78, "text": "But by now I had even a better resume and I wrote to several other game companies" }, { "start": 211.78, "end": 216.783, "text": "and one in Baltimore called the Avalon Hill game company gave me a job and I" }, { "start": 216.783, "end": 220.426, "text": "worked on board games. They're mostly word games, but other kinds of games as well." }, { "start": 221.127, "end": 224.669, "text": "And after four or five years there, I decided that this was not really working" }, { "start": 224.669, "end": 225.79, "text": "out as a long-term situation." }, { "start": 226.191, "end": 229.773, "text": "It wasn't paying very well, but they asked me to move into computer games." }, { "start": 229.773, "end": 231.995, "text": "If they had a computer game division, they asked me to try those." }, { "start": 231.995, "end": 233.396, "text": "And I said, sure, I'll give that a try." }, { "start": 233.776, "end": 237.139, "text": "It looked like more of a future. So I worked there for six months or something." }, { "start": 237.139, "end": 240.601, "text": "And I found out by then, I knew that MicroProse was in the same city," }, { "start": 240.601, "end": 244.244, "text": "Baltimore, Maryland, and MicroProse was, you know, on the north side of town." }, { "start": 244.825, "end": 247.787, "text": "And I started talking to them about working for them. And eventually they had" }, { "start": 247.787, "end": 251.25, "text": "me in for an interview and they offered me a job. And that was how I got into" }, { "start": 251.25, "end": 252.43, "text": "computer games. I transitioned." }, { "start": 253.331, "end": 258.055, "text": "I was part of that generation who transitioned from paper and board games over to computer games." }, { "start": 258.395, "end": 262.498, "text": "And I was never a programmer. My job was to write and to hold the vision of" }, { "start": 262.498, "end": 265.819, "text": "the game and explain the vision and figure out what was supposed to happen on" }, { "start": 265.819, "end": 271.342, "text": "screen and explain that to the people who were actually going to make it work." }, { "start": 271.342, "end": 271.942, "text": "So if you handn't gone into games, what would you have ended up doing?" }, { "start": 273.374, "end": 276.377, "text": "That's a good question. I mean, I was studied science and biology," }, { "start": 276.377, "end": 280.019, "text": "environmental science as a student, and I was working in that for a while before" }, { "start": 280.019, "end": 282.901, "text": "I decided to find something new. And I was going to graduate school in economics." }, { "start": 283.542, "end": 287.184, "text": "And I thought I liked, you know, the financial world, something in that area." }, { "start": 287.275, "end": 291.167, "text": "And it turns out I can write reasonably well, and I could have been maybe a" }, { "start": 291.167, "end": 293.289, "text": "newspaper person, a reporter or something." }, { "start": 293.849, "end": 298.092, "text": "And these are things that I still have some feeling for and still get involved in." }, { "start": 298.092, "end": 300.574, "text": "I think there were some other options there that could have happened," }, { "start": 300.574, "end": 304.257, "text": "but But I turned what I enjoyed doing as a hobby into a career," }, { "start": 304.257, "end": 308.119, "text": "and I never got that real job. And I talked about, you know," }, { "start": 308.119, "end": 310.801, "text": "40-some years as a game developer, that was what happened." }, { "start": 310.801, "end": 315.104, "text": "Well, I'm glad for us gamers that you took that career trajectory." }, { "start": 316.365, "end": 319.207, "text": "But at the beginning, how old were you when you started at Avalon Hill?" }, { "start": 319.207, "end": 320.608, "text": "Let's take that point in time." }, { "start": 321.329, "end": 324.271, "text": "Let's see, I was 34, I think. So I'd messed around." }, { "start": 324.271, "end": 326.672, "text": "I'd tried several things by then. I'd been to graduate school," }, { "start": 326.672, "end": 329.414, "text": "college, had worked in a couple of jobs." }, { "start": 329.414, "end": 331.596, "text": "I was still trying to figure out what I was going to do with my life." }, { "start": 331.596, "end": 334.011, "text": "I mean, I was a famous American writer who said, by the time you're 40," }, { "start": 334.011, "end": 336.399, "text": "you need to know what you're going to do with the rest of your life." }, { "start": 336.399, "end": 340.261, "text": "And so here I was 30-something and still trying to figure it out." }, { "start": 340.261, "end": 341.502, "text": "But you know, it worked out." }, { "start": 342.043, "end": 346.105, "text": "And by the time you joined Microprose, you were close to 40 then?" }, { "start": 346.485, "end": 350.408, "text": "I was 40, yeah, pretty much 40, I think, in 1988, I joined Microprose." }, { "start": 351.108, "end": 353.37, "text": "I was going to be 40 soon, let's put it that way." }, { "start": 353.79, "end": 360.184, "text": "Going back to Avalon Hill, our European audience might not be as familiar with" }, { "start": 360.184, "end": 362.556, "text": "Avalon Hill as U.S. Americans would be." }, { "start": 363.036, "end": 368.54, "text": "What would you say, what standing did Avalon Hill have at the time that you were working there?" }, { "start": 368.75, "end": 372.243, "text": "It was a leading war game producer in the United States." }, { "start": 372.243, "end": 376.205, "text": "They had been making games for 15, maybe 20 years before that." }, { "start": 376.205, "end": 379.988, "text": "They really pioneered the idea of war games for the mass market." }, { "start": 380.448, "end": 383.45, "text": "Games about the American Civil War, they did a game about Waterloo." }, { "start": 383.45, "end": 387.013, "text": "They did Afrika Korps, those were some of their popular games," }, { "start": 387.013, "end": 390.936, "text": "Guadalcanal, a lot of wars that the United States had been involved in." }, { "start": 391.436, "end": 396.6, "text": "And these were pretty traditional war games, well designed and simple to play" }, { "start": 396.6, "end": 398.531, "text": "and very popular at the time." }, { "start": 399.062, "end": 403.745, "text": "And I found mine the first time I was at the beach with my family at the ocean" }, { "start": 403.745, "end": 406.587, "text": "and we had a rainy day, there was no point going down to the water." }, { "start": 406.587, "end": 411.27, "text": "We went into town and I found a game about the World War I of all things in a store." }, { "start": 412.171, "end": 416.884, "text": "It was 1914, about the first year of World War I, and it was a tedious game," }, { "start": 416.884, "end": 419.976, "text": "big, lots of stuff. But to me, I was interested in this because I was learning." }, { "start": 419.976, "end": 423.279, "text": "To me, it was like you took the maps. When you bought a history book," }, { "start": 423.279, "end": 425.821, "text": "there were maps on the inside cover and the back cover." }, { "start": 426.201, "end": 429.203, "text": "What these games did was take those maps out, put them on a table," }, { "start": 429.203, "end": 433.447, "text": "and align all the units that were involved in the fighting. You'd get to refight" }, { "start": 433.447, "end": 435.208, "text": "the campaign, the battle, the war." }, { "start": 435.709, "end": 438.631, "text": "You'd learn quite a bit about it. You could read about it, but here you could" }, { "start": 438.631, "end": 441.032, "text": "actually sit down and be the general on one side or the other," }, { "start": 441.032, "end": 443.174, "text": "and see the decisions that they had to make." }, { "start": 443.274, "end": 447.966, "text": "And it was really illustrative to me, I mean, how it really added a whole dimension" }, { "start": 447.966, "end": 450.492, "text": "to the study of history, especially these historical situations." }, { "start": 451.561, "end": 455.404, "text": "I've read a couple of interviews and articles about your biography," }, { "start": 455.404, "end": 459.727, "text": "and typically your time at Avalon Hill is shortened to a sentence which names" }, { "start": 459.727, "end": 461.688, "text": "the games that you've worked on." }, { "start": 462.069, "end": 467.592, "text": "But how can I imagine that? What did a game designer like yourself at Avalon Hill do?" }, { "start": 467.592, "end": 471.074, "text": "Well, when I was hired, they had bought a bunch of games from" }, { "start": 471.074, "end": 473.616, "text": "another company called Victory Games." }, { "start": 473.616, "end": 478.159, "text": "I was actually hired to go through the Victory Games catalog and see which ones" }, { "start": 478.159, "end": 483.123, "text": "could become Avalon Hill games and choose and then redo them for our artwork" }, { "start": 483.123, "end": 486.225, "text": "and any rules changes or anything like that that need to be done." }, { "start": 486.225, "end": 491.189, "text": "Mostly it was just redoing them, packaging, and then I was given like a little bit of a free hand." }, { "start": 491.189, "end": 494.832, "text": "I mean I found other games out there that I thought would become Avalon Hill" }, { "start": 494.832, "end": 499.315, "text": "games. They were small locally published things and one game was called Titan." }, { "start": 499.315, "end": 503.118, "text": "Some guys I think in Wisconsin or Minnesota had made this game called Titan," }, { "start": 503.118, "end": 505.22, "text": "and they did an expansion pack." }, { "start": 505.56, "end": 508.002, "text": "It was going out of print. They weren't going to make any more of it." }, { "start": 508.002, "end": 510.984, "text": "I said, well, this is a pretty good game. Why don't we redo this one as an Avalon" }, { "start": 510.984, "end": 514.787, "text": "Hill game? And I took the original game and the expansion pack and put them" }, { "start": 514.787, "end": 516.248, "text": "together to make one new game." }, { "start": 516.529, "end": 519.431, "text": "And it was a very well-received, popular game called Titan." }, { "start": 519.991, "end": 522.593, "text": "And then I'm trying to think it was another game that was going out of print" }, { "start": 522.593, "end": 525.455, "text": "about B-17s over Europe in World War II." }, { "start": 525.455, "end": 531.56, "text": "And I redid that one as an Avalon Hill and I redid a game about the invasions" }, { "start": 531.56, "end": 534.502, "text": "of Britain. I think it was called Britannia, about all the different people" }, { "start": 534.502, "end": 538.605, "text": "who invaded Britain a couple thousand years ago. We redid that one." }, { "start": 538.605, "end": 542.428, "text": "And if you say you redid it, what did that entail?" }, { "start": 542.428, "end": 545.801, "text": "Because what you're describing right now sounds more like the work of a product" }, { "start": 545.801, "end": 547.773, "text": "manager than the work of a game designer." }, { "start": 547.773, "end": 551.616, "text": "Yeah, I was called a developer, not a designer. I would take the" }, { "start": 551.616, "end": 555.419, "text": "game and maybe change some rules that I thought I'd played better or something" }, { "start": 555.419, "end": 557.28, "text": "like that or just combined stuff." }, { "start": 557.721, "end": 561.043, "text": "The most popular game I think I worked on that time frame was called 1830." }, { "start": 561.043, "end": 564.505, "text": "It was a railroad game that was designed in Britain." }, { "start": 564.906, "end": 571.109, "text": "I had played that fella's games a lot. He did an 1829 series about railroads in Britain." }, { "start": 571.51, "end": 576.133, "text": "He did a civilization game which later had an impact on something else we made" }, { "start": 576.133, "end": 577.834, "text": "when we made Civilization years later." }, { "start": 578.563, "end": 581.645, "text": "And I was telling you should make a game about railroads in america. You know," }, { "start": 581.645, "end": 584.808, "text": "I got that communicated with him and he says, yeah, that'd be great So he" }, { "start": 584.808, "end": 589.151, "text": "designed a game for us And we sent it to us and I felt it was too hard or not" }, { "start": 589.151, "end": 594.055, "text": "as interesting enough for the american audience so We had an awful lot of correspondence" }, { "start": 594.055, "end": 596.777, "text": "back and forth about what we could do to change the game I'm playing it with" }, { "start": 596.777, "end": 599.739, "text": "guys in baltimore and we're talking about what we would change or what we don't" }, { "start": 599.739, "end": 603.863, "text": "like or didn't like And he's playing it with his brother and a couple of guys in northampton," }, { "start": 603.863, "end": 606.325, "text": "england And they're talking about what you know, and they're really heavily" }, { "start": 606.325, "end": 609.347, "text": "dominated by what he thinks Everything he did, they loved." }, { "start": 609.347, "end": 612.429, "text": "And everything in America, we didn't really like too much. So one of the things" }, { "start": 612.429, "end": 615.011, "text": "about the game, I don't want to bore you with this, but the game unfolded." }, { "start": 615.011, "end": 618.274, "text": "You could only buy one railroad to start the game. And when that one was functioning," }, { "start": 618.274, "end": 620.856, "text": "you could start the second one. And when that was functioning," }, { "start": 620.856, "end": 623.057, "text": "you could start the third. And it had a slow progression." }, { "start": 623.378, "end": 627.08, "text": "I thought America was more of a wide-open place. So the big change we made was" }, { "start": 627.08, "end": 628.601, "text": "all the railroads were available." }, { "start": 628.601, "end": 633.024, "text": "You have so much money. If you want to start a railroad in New York or Baltimore" }, { "start": 633.024, "end": 636.705, "text": "or Philadelphia, wherever you want to start it, But that's up to you." }, { "start": 636.705, "end": 639.286, "text": "You got to make it work. And that opened the game up dramatically." }, { "start": 639.627, "end": 642.988, "text": "And everybody thought it was a big improvement. So after a while," }, { "start": 642.988, "end": 646.77, "text": "my friend in Britain, Francis Tresham, I think he's actually passed away now." }, { "start": 646.77, "end": 649.491, "text": "But he says, well, I just want the game published in America." }, { "start": 649.491, "end": 651.972, "text": "You do anything you want with it. So he gave us like a free hand." }, { "start": 652.709, "end": 656.051, "text": "So we made the changes that I thought were important, or we thought were important," }, { "start": 656.051, "end": 659.274, "text": "and they published it. And it's a pretty popular game even today." }, { "start": 659.274, "end": 664.117, "text": "I mean, I know that there's a whole series called 18XX Games about railroading," }, { "start": 664.117, "end": 665.418, "text": "and there's a lot of them, apparently." }, { "start": 665.979, "end": 669.341, "text": "And I've been told that 1830 is one of the best or one of the most favorite" }, { "start": 669.341, "end": 672.603, "text": "of all the ones that they made. And I think that I'm pretty proud about that," }, { "start": 672.603, "end": 675.785, "text": "if that's the case, you know, that we had an influence on that whole series," }, { "start": 675.785, "end": 677.647, "text": "and that they're still very popular." }, { "start": 677.647, "end": 681.71, "text": "I can imagine. And you also mentioned that you you then had a brush" }, { "start": 681.71, "end": 685.652, "text": "with the microcomputer games division of Avalon Hill, because they moved into" }, { "start": 685.652, "end": 688.535, "text": "computer games pretty early, if I'm not mistaken, like in the early 80s." }, { "start": 688.675, "end": 692.107, "text": "Yeah, they were a pioneer in computer games. They were publishing" }, { "start": 692.107, "end": 696.941, "text": "computer games in like 87, maybe 86. I'm not sure how far back they go." }, { "start": 696.941, "end": 700.423, "text": "Back to 1980, actually. That's when they originally started." }, { "start": 700.423, "end": 705.067, "text": "Jay Taylor Okay. Yeah, well, they always did things as inexpensively as they could." }, { "start": 705.067, "end": 708.589, "text": "So basically, one guy would make a game for them, and they would sell it." }, { "start": 708.589, "end": 711.351, "text": "And that worked really well when there was nothing out there." }, { "start": 711.351, "end": 715.715, "text": "But as soon as like good games came along or good studios started publishing," }, { "start": 715.715, "end": 720.218, "text": "like Electronic Arts and Microprose started making games, their products were" }, { "start": 720.218, "end": 722.159, "text": "not up to snuff as far as being competitive." }, { "start": 722.56, "end": 726.223, "text": "You know, they would rely on one guy working at home somewhere to make a game." }, { "start": 726.223, "end": 729.725, "text": "They asked me to look at some of these. And I remember the first computer game" }, { "start": 729.725, "end": 733.618, "text": "I worked on had four colors, four color graphics, and we could use white," }, { "start": 733.618, "end": 735.93, "text": "black, cyan, of magenta on the screen." }, { "start": 736.43, "end": 740.093, "text": "And I remember I had to work with these guys. One was doing a basketball game" }, { "start": 740.093, "end": 744.036, "text": "and this terrific NBA all-star was not a good rebounder." }, { "start": 744.036, "end": 747.418, "text": "And I said, this guy's the best rebounder in the country. How is he not a rebounder in your game?" }, { "start": 747.418, "end": 750.801, "text": "I don't understand this, you know? So those were the kind of issues I was dealing with." }, { "start": 750.801, "end": 755.754, "text": "It was trying to help these guys think they were all men, polish their products" }, { "start": 755.754, "end": 760.008, "text": "into a usable game, but they were really simple. And what happened was a friend" }, { "start": 760.008, "end": 764.529, "text": "of mine said, you should try this game. And he asked me to play Sid Meier's Pirates." }, { "start": 764.73, "end": 767.752, "text": "On Amiga or something like that. I went over to South, we played that game." }, { "start": 767.752, "end": 771.075, "text": "I said, wow, now here's a game that's pretty interesting. This is much better" }, { "start": 771.075, "end": 772.736, "text": "than things that I'm working on." }, { "start": 772.736, "end": 775.518, "text": "And so I said, well, if I'm going to try and make a job out of this," }, { "start": 775.518, "end": 780.001, "text": "I should talk to this company about a job. I actually built a solitaire game" }, { "start": 780.001, "end": 784.304, "text": "called Patton's Best, which was about tanks, a US tank division in World War" }, { "start": 784.304, "end": 786.326, "text": "II and was played by solitaire." }, { "start": 786.696, "end": 789.608, "text": "I said, well, here's a demonstration and I can make a computer game." }, { "start": 790.049, "end": 792.07, "text": "All the games back then were pretty much solitaire." }, { "start": 792.551, "end": 796.413, "text": "So I built a solitaire board game. I could probably help them with a solitaire computer game." }, { "start": 796.413, "end": 798.955, "text": "So by solitaire you mean a single-player game?" }, { "start": 798.955, "end": 802.098, "text": "Yeah, a single-player game. You don't play against another person," }, { "start": 802.098, "end": 803.219, "text": "you play against the game." }, { "start": 803.219, "end": 804.66, "text": "And how did you make that?" }, { "start": 804.66, "end": 808.543, "text": "Well, I made it at Avalon Hill. I did a lot of incredible amounts of research" }, { "start": 808.543, "end": 813.246, "text": "on what it was like to work in a tank during World War II, especially an American Sherman tank." }, { "start": 813.246, "end": 816.789, "text": "Tank. And it was based on the experience of one American tank division called" }, { "start": 816.789, "end": 821.133, "text": "the Fourth Armour. It was part of Patton's Third Army and the Fourth Armour" }, { "start": 821.133, "end": 824.845, "text": "Division was considered quote his best. I mean, one of the guys in serving that" }, { "start": 824.845, "end": 827.457, "text": "regiment wrote a book about his experience called Patton's Best." }, { "start": 827.718, "end": 831.46, "text": "And we used that title for our computer game and just followed the experience" }, { "start": 831.46, "end": 835.063, "text": "of that tank division across Europe where the battles they fought." }, { "start": 835.463, "end": 838.706, "text": "And so the game would generate these situations where you had to figure out" }, { "start": 838.706, "end": 841.388, "text": "how to survive in your tank and it helped fight." }, { "start": 842.409, "end": 844.71, "text": "I did a lot of research on what happened when tanks were hit." }, { "start": 844.71, "end": 849.173, "text": "It's funny because years later I met a neighbor who actually served in a Sherman" }, { "start": 849.173, "end": 853.997, "text": "tank all across Europe, from North Africa all the way to Austria through Italy and stuff like that." }, { "start": 853.997, "end": 857.72, "text": "He told me, he said, we ran into the German tanks, we backed up and called in" }, { "start": 857.72, "end": 861.002, "text": "for air power because their tanks were much better than ours and we didn't want" }, { "start": 861.002, "end": 863.544, "text": "to fight the tanks. So it was pretty funny to hear him tell me that." }, { "start": 863.934, "end": 867.166, "text": "Not a good basis for a game. Running away." }, { "start": 867.166, "end": 871.81, "text": "No. The 4th Armored did engage with other tanks, there were some famous tank" }, { "start": 871.81, "end": 872.85, "text": "battles they were involved in." }, { "start": 872.85, "end": 874.472, "text": "So that was a computer game?" }, { "start": 874.472, "end": 877.013, "text": "It was not a computer game, it was a board game that I made." }, { "start": 877.013, "end": 879.475, "text": "I don't remember the computer games I worked on at Avalon Hill." }, { "start": 880.116, "end": 883.018, "text": "Some guy was taking Wooden Ships and Iron Men, a board game," }, { "start": 883.018, "end": 884.919, "text": "and making that into a computer game." }, { "start": 885.76, "end": 889.543, "text": "I thought it was okay, he was just translating the game to a digital format," }, { "start": 889.543, "end": 892.785, "text": "and it was a basketball game I worked on, which I didn't like," }, { "start": 892.785, "end": 895.007, "text": "because I thought the stats were all wrong." }, { "start": 895.548, "end": 899.53, "text": "It sounds like you were not very enthusiastic about the Avalon Hill computer games." }, { "start": 899.61, "end": 903.074, "text": "I didn't think it was the future, and so I was encouraged to look for another job." }, { "start": 903.715, "end": 907.86, "text": "And I was happy to find out that Microprose was in the same city, not too far away." }, { "start": 908.557, "end": 912.1, "text": "And that took me a year, I think, to talk to them. And finally," }, { "start": 912.1, "end": 915.162, "text": "they got to a point where they were expanding. They'd hired a bunch of people" }, { "start": 915.162, "end": 918.724, "text": "from Coleco, and they had me come in for an interview. I spent the day there," }, { "start": 918.724, "end": 921.266, "text": "and they offered me a job the next day, which I took." }, { "start": 922.567, "end": 926.449, "text": "And that was in 1988, 1989?" }, { "start": 926.449, "end": 927.35, "text": "Yes, 1988, early 1988." }, { "start": 927.831, "end": 932.113, "text": "In his memoir, Sid Meier mentioned that he was not involved in hiring you," }, { "start": 932.113, "end": 936.837, "text": "but that he was surprised afterwards to learn that the company had hired a designer" }, { "start": 936.837, "end": 941.7, "text": "who was not also a programmer, because apparently that was highly unusual at the time." }, { "start": 941.941, "end": 945.062, "text": "Yeah, I think so. I mean, I always tease them. I'm not teasing them." }, { "start": 945.062, "end": 947.384, "text": "And I said, you know, you have all these programmers, and you have all these" }, { "start": 947.384, "end": 950.426, "text": "artists, and you don't have anybody who's actually made a game before," }, { "start": 950.426, "end": 952.808, "text": "you know, well, you need to hire me, because I've made games," }, { "start": 952.808, "end": 955.81, "text": "you know, I mean, there's something else that goes on besides programming and art." }, { "start": 956.331, "end": 961.214, "text": "There has to be a theme behind it. Now, Sid was a natural, he was a brilliant game designer." }, { "start": 961.214, "end": 965.277, "text": "But it turns out, it's hard to find people who have all those skills in in one" }, { "start": 965.277, "end": 969.06, "text": "person. I mean, there aren't many people that I've met over the years who are" }, { "start": 969.06, "end": 972.323, "text": "great programmers and great designers at the same time." }, { "start": 972.903, "end": 976.546, "text": "I think they hired me and it turned out when I got there, there were already" }, { "start": 976.546, "end": 978.587, "text": "other guys there who had not been programmers." }, { "start": 980.009, "end": 983.751, "text": "I can think of like Lawrence Schick, who's still making games today." }, { "start": 984.092, "end": 987.474, "text": "He had an office next door to me and he was not a programmer to my knowledge." }, { "start": 987.474, "end": 991.057, "text": "I mean, I don't think he was a programmer. And there might've been others at the time." }, { "start": 991.517, "end": 994.879, "text": "And gradually they build out a staff of design people who are not programmers." }, { "start": 995.339, "end": 999.201, "text": "I mean, there's an awful lot that goes into a game that doesn't involve programming, you know." }, { "start": 999.541, "end": 1004.084, "text": "True. I mean, your assumption that this is a specialized occupation" }, { "start": 1004.084, "end": 1008.546, "text": "game designer has proven to be correct, because that's how we understand it these days." }, { "start": 1009.286, "end": 1013.408, "text": "But what were you hired for then? In what role, for what project?" }, { "start": 1013.749, "end": 1016.53, "text": "They were building a game called F-19 Stealth Fighter." }, { "start": 1017.159, "end": 1020.802, "text": "And they needed somebody to help with the maps, build the maps," }, { "start": 1020.802, "end": 1022.103, "text": "and then actually build the..." }, { "start": 1022.103, "end": 1026.346, "text": "It was sort of like art, but we were using 3D technology to build 3D objects," }, { "start": 1026.346, "end": 1027.827, "text": "and so they ended up doing that." }, { "start": 1027.827, "end": 1032.631, "text": "I remember I built a stealth fighter out of like seven coordinates or ten coordinates," }, { "start": 1032.631, "end": 1035.833, "text": "and they all thought it was great because it minimized the programming need" }, { "start": 1035.833, "end": 1039.496, "text": "of the computer, and it still looked like the plane we were supposed to be flying." }, { "start": 1039.496, "end": 1044.48, "text": "And so I remember deciding where the air bases would be, and maps and worlds." }, { "start": 1044.48, "end": 1048.102, "text": "I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was more like that kind of work," }, { "start": 1048.102, "end": 1055.127, "text": "just building the settings for the things and stuff. I was in 3D world a lot, that's what I remember." }, { "start": 1056.289, "end": 1059.21, "text": "That's pretty interesting to me, because to be honest," }, { "start": 1059.21, "end": 1064.794, "text": "Bruce, I had difficulties understanding your role at MicroProse during the time that you were there." }, { "start": 1065.194, "end": 1069.737, "text": "Here's a list of things that you did while you were at MicroProse that I took" }, { "start": 1069.737, "end": 1073.92, "text": "from several sources. So you were doing the 3D objects for flight simulations." }, { "start": 1073.92, "end": 1076.462, "text": "I think you were also doing research for flight simulations." }, { "start": 1076.842, "end": 1082.246, "text": "You wrote game manuals. You made a budget analysis for Railroad Tycoon for the" }, { "start": 1082.246, "end": 1083.707, "text": "management of micro pros." }, { "start": 1084.108, "end": 1088.091, "text": "You, at the request of Sid Meier, wrote a list of things that could be improved" }, { "start": 1088.091, "end": 1092.554, "text": "in Empire, which was a competing strategy game. You were a sounding board for" }, { "start": 1092.554, "end": 1096.597, "text": "Sid Meier, who bounced ideas and prototypes off of you. And obviously," }, { "start": 1096.597, "end": 1098.559, "text": "you assisted Sid Meier with the game design." }, { "start": 1098.98, "end": 1104.344, "text": "But even halfway into Civilization, when the two of you had already collaborated" }, { "start": 1104.344, "end": 1109.489, "text": "on Railroad Tycoon and Covert Action, Sid Meier stated that you were not working" }, { "start": 1109.489, "end": 1113.132, "text": "full-time with him because you had other assignments within the company." }, { "start": 1113.553, "end": 1116.895, "text": "To me, that's kind of all over the place, and most importantly," }, { "start": 1116.895, "end": 1119.918, "text": "it's all auxiliary work for someone else." }, { "start": 1120.399, "end": 1122.67, "text": "Was there something at Microprose that you owned?" }, { "start": 1123.802, "end": 1128.786, "text": "Not really. I mean, I was also a producer. We had some outside developers working" }, { "start": 1128.786, "end": 1131.568, "text": "on a game. It was a game about destroyer escorts and world war two." }, { "start": 1131.789, "end": 1135.431, "text": "I mean, I had to take a train up to New Jersey and meet this team and talk about" }, { "start": 1135.431, "end": 1139.654, "text": "their game and shepherd it through the production process and get it finished" }, { "start": 1139.654, "end": 1143.457, "text": "and published. And then it was an internal project. Sid had done a game called" }, { "start": 1143.457, "end": 1145.499, "text": "a helicopter game. I forgot what it's called." }, { "start": 1145.499, "end": 1146.269, "text": "Gunship." }, { "start": 1146.269, "end": 1150.342, "text": "Gunship. Yeah, and they were gonna port it over to another program I think the" }, { "start": 1150.342, "end": 1153.945, "text": "Commodore 64 or something like that and I was responsible for that." }, { "start": 1153.945, "end": 1156.787, "text": "I was in charge of that project I had to organize the" }, { "start": 1156.787, "end": 1160.73, "text": "art and the programming and get it through the production process get it all" }, { "start": 1160.73, "end": 1165.773, "text": "tested And I finished two games on the same day as a producer They both went" }, { "start": 1165.773, "end": 1169.836, "text": "as we used to say gold The code was finished and the project was sent off to" }, { "start": 1169.836, "end": 1174.76, "text": "be manufactured I think Commodore 64 and Destroyer Escort went gold on the same day," }, { "start": 1174.76, "end": 1177.502, "text": "so I was managing those as a producer." }, { "start": 1177.702, "end": 1181.525, "text": "You know, Sid was the guy who was doing most of the art and the programming" }, { "start": 1181.525, "end": 1186.289, "text": "on those early games internally until the project got lit and got more help." }, { "start": 1186.289, "end": 1189.511, "text": "But there were things he didn't want to do. It was like, go meet the sales team" }, { "start": 1189.511, "end": 1192.954, "text": "or something like that. I'd have to go meet the sales team and give a presentation" }, { "start": 1192.954, "end": 1193.935, "text": "on what we were working on." }, { "start": 1194.335, "end": 1197.117, "text": "And I had to work with the people laying out the manuals." }, { "start": 1197.918, "end": 1201.581, "text": "I had to run the play tests, you know, because that was another job for a," }, { "start": 1201.581, "end": 1203.282, "text": "quote, producer kind of person." }, { "start": 1203.723, "end": 1207.565, "text": "I was managing the bug list. These are the bugs. And he'd decide what we was" }, { "start": 1207.565, "end": 1210.788, "text": "gonna fix and what was gonna be a feature and what we're gonna ignore." }, { "start": 1210.788, "end": 1213.81, "text": "And I'd have to go through the testing and make sure that things were fixed," }, { "start": 1213.81, "end": 1217.293, "text": "you know. Okay, he says this is fixed. Please check this and make sure it is" }, { "start": 1217.293, "end": 1220.115, "text": "fixed. So, I mean, there was all the little stuff like that." }, { "start": 1220.115, "end": 1223.618, "text": "And then part of the every day was talking, just sitting and talking with him." }, { "start": 1223.809, "end": 1228.662, "text": "I mean, he would give me a version of the game we were working on at some point in the afternoon." }, { "start": 1229.345, "end": 1232.768, "text": "Maybe at the end of the day and then i would play it in the morning i was using" }, { "start": 1232.768, "end": 1235.95, "text": "the offices for him and i'd play it in the morning for an hour or something" }, { "start": 1235.95, "end": 1240.033, "text": "like that and then he come in and say when you're free come on down so i go" }, { "start": 1240.033, "end": 1241.874, "text": "down and sit in his office and we'd sit there and talk." }, { "start": 1241.874, "end": 1246.238, "text": "Maybe an hour maybe longer and talk about what i thought of the latest version" }, { "start": 1246.238, "end": 1250.04, "text": "you are like i didn't like and you know where he was thinking and we would do" }, { "start": 1250.04, "end": 1254.324, "text": "the ideas for making it better and start programming and i go off maybe do something" }, { "start": 1254.324, "end": 1255.804, "text": "else i was had to do one of the responsibilities." }, { "start": 1256.966, "end": 1259.748, "text": "Or I'd just go back and play it. It's hard to say I mean, I know a" }, { "start": 1259.748, "end": 1262.58, "text": "fellow who sat across the hall He said you guys when you start" }, { "start": 1262.58, "end": 1265.972, "text": "talking I couldn't get any work done because it was so interesting what you" }, { "start": 1265.972, "end": 1269.074, "text": "were talking about You know the way that game was coming together he says I" }, { "start": 1269.074, "end": 1271.876, "text": "had to either close the door or just sit there and listen because of the talks" }, { "start": 1271.876, "end": 1276.119, "text": "you guys had about Making this game and changing games and just games in general" }, { "start": 1276.119, "end": 1280.602, "text": "were so interesting I couldn't get anything done as long as that conversation was going on So" }, { "start": 1280.733, "end": 1284.495, "text": "that was really fun to be talking to him about how this worked and noodling" }, { "start": 1284.495, "end": 1286.927, "text": "the ideas and trying to make it a better game." }, { "start": 1286.927, "end": 1289.248, "text": "But Sid Meier was not your manager, right?" }, { "start": 1289.248, "end": 1292.591, "text": "No, I mean, we didn't know this at the time until the company went public." }, { "start": 1292.591, "end": 1295.934, "text": "He was an independent contractor by now. He had been a co-founder of the company," }, { "start": 1295.934, "end": 1298.436, "text": "but he didn't want to do some of the things the president wanted to do." }, { "start": 1298.436, "end": 1301.538, "text": "So they came to an agreement. The president bought him out. And Sid was just" }, { "start": 1301.538, "end": 1305.561, "text": "getting paid on the projects when he finished them. He got so much money for finishing a project." }, { "start": 1305.942, "end": 1310.165, "text": "But I was an employee, so I reported to the guy in charge of games development." }, { "start": 1310.165, "end": 1311.025, "text": "Who was that?" }, { "start": 1311.926, "end": 1315.387, "text": "Oh gosh, Ted Markley was the last one, I think. And before that," }, { "start": 1315.387, "end": 1318.968, "text": "it was a fellow named Steve Meyer, who became a really good friend of mine later" }, { "start": 1318.968, "end": 1321.369, "text": "because we both ended up in Chicago and became good friends." }, { "start": 1322.049, "end": 1325.19, "text": "But Steve left at some point. He had a disagreement, I think," }, { "start": 1325.19, "end": 1326.731, "text": "with Bill about running the company." }, { "start": 1327.311, "end": 1330.992, "text": "Several of the executives left at some point because they didn't get along with the president." }, { "start": 1331.734, "end": 1334.556, "text": "Ted his job was depending on what with other guys" }, { "start": 1334.556, "end": 1337.578, "text": "were doing not what Sid was doing So we were" }, { "start": 1337.578, "end": 1340.44, "text": "always last in line for help to make a game You" }, { "start": 1340.44, "end": 1344.823, "text": "know like art music and things like that Because his pay depending on what the" }, { "start": 1344.823, "end": 1348.026, "text": "other people were doing not what Sid was doing Sid was gonna get so much money" }, { "start": 1348.026, "end": 1352.289, "text": "for finishing A game and I was just a piece of stuff laying around that they" }, { "start": 1352.289, "end": 1356.312, "text": "gave Sid to work with so they didn't care much about Me I came to work there" }, { "start": 1356.312, "end": 1360.095, "text": "for a very low salary because I came out of the board game industry And so years later," }, { "start": 1360.095, "end": 1363.257, "text": "when I left, part of the reason was I never caught up to the other designers." }, { "start": 1363.257, "end": 1364.898, "text": "I was way behind everybody else's pay." }, { "start": 1365.539, "end": 1369.042, "text": "And that was one of the reasons that I was okay leaving. But that was another story." }, { "start": 1369.042, "end": 1372.184, "text": "Yeah, we'll get to that later, because that's also an interesting" }, { "start": 1372.184, "end": 1375.326, "text": "part. But at this point in time, I mean, that's an interesting constellation." }, { "start": 1375.726, "end": 1379.489, "text": "You didn't know yet that Sid Meier was an independent contractor." }, { "start": 1379.489, "end": 1383.652, "text": "You still thought he was a partner and part of the management team." }, { "start": 1383.913, "end": 1385.213, "text": "Yeah, yeah, we didn't know that." }, { "start": 1385.474, "end": 1390.998, "text": "But de facto, Sid Meier could not command any resources within Microprose, right?" }, { "start": 1390.998, "end": 1394.801, "text": "He could command them, but it was a struggle, because the guy who ran the" }, { "start": 1394.801, "end": 1398.343, "text": "whole division, who everybody worked for, was getting paid on what everybody" }, { "start": 1398.343, "end": 1401.686, "text": "else was doing, not what Sid was doing. So there was a natural bias." }, { "start": 1402.406, "end": 1406.149, "text": "Our bonuses for civilization were penalized because we were late." }, { "start": 1406.549, "end": 1409.991, "text": "And my thinking was, well, if you'd given us the art and the music and the other" }, { "start": 1409.991, "end": 1412.553, "text": "stuff when we needed it, we would have had that game done on time." }, { "start": 1412.553, "end": 1416.596, "text": "So I was a little bitter about the fact that our bonuses for finishing Civilization" }, { "start": 1416.596, "end": 1420.239, "text": "were penalized when it was out of our hands whether it was going to be done or not." }, { "start": 1420.98, "end": 1424.522, "text": "But that's maybe just my thinking, and it may not be the case. I don't remember now." }, { "start": 1424.522, "end": 1427.545, "text": "Let's keep that in mind. I'd like to come back to that a bit later." }, { "start": 1427.545, "end": 1435.01, "text": "Do you still remember how you met Sid Meier? How did he notice you and realize your potential?" }, { "start": 1435.01, "end": 1438.753, "text": "Well, we were on the same game together. I don't know if I actually physically" }, { "start": 1438.753, "end": 1443.613, "text": "talked to him. be in meetings or something like that and I know who he was and." }, { "start": 1443.49, "end": 1447.153, "text": "I guess I had to work with him right away, so we had conversations and stuff" }, { "start": 1447.153, "end": 1450.216, "text": "like that, but he's a quiet person, pretty distant." }, { "start": 1450.216, "end": 1453.869, "text": "He used to say that he would not bother meeting anybody, new employee," }, { "start": 1453.869, "end": 1456.26, "text": "until he'd been there like six months and he was sure that they were going to" }, { "start": 1456.26, "end": 1458.942, "text": "stay because he didn't want to waste his time. I know that's probably cruel," }, { "start": 1458.942, "end": 1462.205, "text": "but he was a very private individual. He was born in Switzerland." }, { "start": 1462.205, "end": 1464.327, "text": "He's like a Swiss watchmaker, very private." }, { "start": 1464.747, "end": 1469.39, "text": "So I think I had to deal with him immediately, so we got along fine, and then I just worked." }, { "start": 1469.39, "end": 1473.854, "text": "I just kept my nose down and worked. I wanted this job to be a success So I" }, { "start": 1473.854, "end": 1475.816, "text": "try to volunteer for extra stuff," }, { "start": 1475.816, "end": 1479.018, "text": "you know that nobody else wanted to do or something like that like these projects" }, { "start": 1479.018, "end": 1483.562, "text": "But we're not that interesting like the Commodore game There was a programmer" }, { "start": 1483.562, "end": 1486.384, "text": "there It was considered kind of difficult to work with and everybody's kind" }, { "start": 1486.384, "end": 1489.306, "text": "of like rolling their eyes about having to manage him And I said," }, { "start": 1489.306, "end": 1492.669, "text": "I'll take that job, you know, if that's a challenge I'll take it because I'd" }, { "start": 1492.669, "end": 1494.15, "text": "like to show that I belong here" }, { "start": 1494.25, "end": 1498.313, "text": "And I'd like to solve a problem for the guy in charge if I can solve this problem" }, { "start": 1498.313, "end": 1500.435, "text": "for you That's gotta be good for me, right?" }, { "start": 1500.435, "end": 1503.317, "text": "So let me take that job.\" So I was doing things like that." }, { "start": 1503.878, "end": 1507.26, "text": "And we played board games, too. We did a little board gaming playing after work," }, { "start": 1507.26, "end": 1511.263, "text": "and I think I was encouraging that. Like, I brought the 1830 board game that" }, { "start": 1511.263, "end": 1512.984, "text": "I made at Avalon Hill. We played that." }, { "start": 1513.084, "end": 1516.326, "text": "And I think years later, that would be part of the inspiration for Railroad" }, { "start": 1516.326, "end": 1520.029, "text": "Tycoon, and we brought over the Civilization game from Avalon Hill that the" }, { "start": 1520.029, "end": 1521.97, "text": "same fella had designed, Francis Tresham." }, { "start": 1522.391, "end": 1527.614, "text": "And I think that helped, you know, encourage the idea of what became the Civilization computer game." }, { "start": 1528.055, "end": 1533.639, "text": "I see. So what was Bruce Shelley like at the time? If Sid Meier was private" }, { "start": 1533.639, "end": 1537.191, "text": "and quiet, as you mentioned, how would your co-workers have described you?" }, { "start": 1538.192, "end": 1541.684, "text": "Well, I was a little more outgoing, for sure. I mean, I wanted to fit in and" }, { "start": 1541.684, "end": 1543.626, "text": "I got along pretty well with everybody, I think." }, { "start": 1544.086, "end": 1547.979, "text": "They had a softball team, so I played softball just to get to know people." }, { "start": 1548.349, "end": 1551.292, "text": "And then what was even more valuable, I think, well, maybe not valuable," }, { "start": 1551.292, "end": 1553.216, "text": "but they had a basketball court in the warehouse." }, { "start": 1554.04, "end": 1557.247, "text": "And I found out they were playing basketball. So I volunteered to play basketball." }, { "start": 1557.247, "end": 1560.074, "text": "I played basketball in high school and I still played basketball." }, { "start": 1560.703, "end": 1565.467, "text": "You know a couple days a week you are very tall right i'm six foot two you're" }, { "start": 1565.467, "end": 1571.412, "text": "just tall for my age So I played basketball and I'm playing with the executives of the company now So," }, { "start": 1571.412, "end": 1574.715, "text": "you know Not only i'm playing with the guys in the warehouse and executives" }, { "start": 1574.715, "end": 1577.517, "text": "and a couple other guys from game side But most of the people in the basketball" }, { "start": 1577.517, "end": 1579.769, "text": "games were not in the game development side." }, { "start": 1579.769, "end": 1583.642, "text": "They were from the business side And so I got to know all the executives and" }, { "start": 1583.642, "end": 1585.944, "text": "people were laughing they were not they were laughing kind of stunned You know" }, { "start": 1585.944, "end": 1589.406, "text": "like i'd walk around the building and and the vice president of marketing or" }, { "start": 1589.406, "end": 1591.308, "text": "sales or something like that I was like, Hey Bruce, how are you today?" }, { "start": 1591.308, "end": 1593.659, "text": "And all the guys are going, Hey, how do you know him? I said," }, { "start": 1593.659, "end": 1596.111, "text": "well, I played basketball with him a couple of days a week, you know?" }, { "start": 1596.111, "end": 1599.394, "text": "And I remember, I'll make, I'll think it's a funny story, but we're playing" }, { "start": 1599.394, "end": 1602.176, "text": "basketball and Bill Staley, the president of the company was part of the game." }, { "start": 1602.176, "end": 1604.998, "text": "You know, he's a very aggressive player and he's tough. He's really hard player." }, { "start": 1605.498, "end": 1610.122, "text": "And I wouldn't take that. I fought back, you know, I fought hard and I remember I hit him one time." }, { "start": 1610.122, "end": 1613.024, "text": "We're going for a loose ball and we clashed into each other and I think I knocked" }, { "start": 1613.024, "end": 1615.522, "text": "the wind out of him and he fell down, I'm thinking, you know," }, { "start": 1615.522, "end": 1618.368, "text": "I've been in a company a couple of months and I think I just lost my job," }, { "start": 1618.368, "end": 1621.73, "text": "you know, I just knocked the CEO of the company, I almost knocked him out." }, { "start": 1622.151, "end": 1624.472, "text": "And he got up and recovered, and we got on and went on to play." }, { "start": 1624.472, "end": 1628.455, "text": "And after the game was over, I would rush back. We had a bathroom shower in" }, { "start": 1628.455, "end": 1631.137, "text": "the development side. I went back and showered real quick." }, { "start": 1631.378, "end": 1635.4, "text": "And the executives would come down later and shower, the VP of my boss," }, { "start": 1635.4, "end": 1637.962, "text": "the head of development, the head of marketing, the head of sales," }, { "start": 1637.962, "end": 1638.883, "text": "they'd all come down later." }, { "start": 1639.144, "end": 1642.306, "text": "So I'm finished. I'm coming out of the shower. I got to go to work, right?" }, { "start": 1642.846, "end": 1645.809, "text": "And I'm thinking, man, did I lose my job? And every one of these executives" }, { "start": 1645.809, "end": 1647.01, "text": "is going, that was awesome, Bruce." }, { "start": 1647.01, "end": 1652.494, "text": "High five. They were all giving me a high-five, like that was great." }, { "start": 1653.315, "end": 1656.157, "text": "So I thought, okay, maybe I haven't lost my job. I don't know, it's funny." }, { "start": 1656.978, "end": 1660.52, "text": "Apparently you didn't. I mean, wasn't Bill Steele an Air Force pilot," }, { "start": 1660.52, "end": 1663.943, "text": "a military man, so he should know how to take that." }, { "start": 1664.504, "end": 1668.006, "text": "Yeah, he was. He was a pilot. He went to Air Force Academy. He's still very" }, { "start": 1668.006, "end": 1671.668, "text": "big on that. We're Facebook friends and he's always posting pictures of his" }, { "start": 1671.668, "end": 1674.95, "text": "colleagues playing golf and talking about the Air Force Academy football team" }, { "start": 1674.95, "end": 1678.372, "text": "or something. And he played lacrosse in college. He was an athlete himself." }, { "start": 1678.752, "end": 1682.174, "text": "I played lacrosse in college a little bit too, so we had that in common." }, { "start": 1682.174, "end": 1686.457, "text": "He was a big soccer fan too. We had soccer games too. I never played soccer." }, { "start": 1686.457, "end": 1688.278, "text": "That was the first time I ever played soccer." }, { "start": 1688.853, "end": 1694.627, "text": "Okay, so you've established yourself at Microprose. Can you take us on a mental" }, { "start": 1694.627, "end": 1696.719, "text": "tour through the offices?" }, { "start": 1696.719, "end": 1699.181, "text": "You already mentioned the basketball court in the warehouse," }, { "start": 1699.181, "end": 1702.363, "text": "but what were the offices like? How many people were there even at Microprose?" }, { "start": 1702.704, "end": 1703.945, "text": "Was it a large company already?" }, { "start": 1703.945, "end": 1707.807, "text": "That's a good question. I'd say probably a hundred people maybe." }, { "start": 1708.348, "end": 1712.231, "text": "The main entrance was in the middle of the building. It was one long thin building," }, { "start": 1712.231, "end": 1713.893, "text": "a long one-story building." }, { "start": 1714.153, "end": 1717.655, "text": "And you entered in the middle, when you came in, it was a reception area," }, { "start": 1717.655, "end": 1719.317, "text": "there's usually somebody there waiting at the door." }, { "start": 1719.537, "end": 1723.76, "text": "And then there was a big room where we could all meet, you know, like a conference room." }, { "start": 1724.4, "end": 1726.962, "text": "If you went to the left, if you turn left, when you came in," }, { "start": 1726.962, "end": 1730.505, "text": "you went down to business side, that's where Bill's office was," }, { "start": 1730.505, "end": 1733.607, "text": "the president's office, and that's where marketing was and sales," }, { "start": 1733.607, "end": 1736.089, "text": "and the warehouse was in that direction as well." }, { "start": 1736.089, "end": 1739.891, "text": "If you turn right, you went through another door, and that's where all the game" }, { "start": 1739.891, "end": 1743.354, "text": "development was, all the game developers are on the right. When you went down" }, { "start": 1743.354, "end": 1746.236, "text": "the hall, the first office on your right was Sid's office, a big office." }, { "start": 1747.417, "end": 1752.24, "text": "There was a hallway that went around in a loop, a square, and there were individual" }, { "start": 1752.24, "end": 1756.423, "text": "offices. Most of us had individual offices. My office was as far away from the" }, { "start": 1756.423, "end": 1757.824, "text": "front door as you could get, practically." }, { "start": 1759.325, "end": 1763.247, "text": "Lauren Schick was sitting next to me, and one of our top programmers was across" }, { "start": 1763.247, "end": 1765.569, "text": "the hall. Actually, there were two programmers across the hall from me." }, { "start": 1766.51, "end": 1769.912, "text": "There was another recreation room there on the corner down that way," }, { "start": 1769.912, "end": 1773.915, "text": "and we'd have some meetings there occasionally, and there was just a mixture" }, { "start": 1773.915, "end": 1777.618, "text": "of artists and programmers and designers in these offices all around the square." }, { "start": 1777.618, "end": 1779.779, "text": "That was my home for five years or so." }, { "start": 1779.779, "end": 1785.964, "text": "Okay, so now let's skip over Railroad Tycoon and Covert Action" }, { "start": 1785.964, "end": 1789.106, "text": "and go straight into the inception of Civilization." }, { "start": 1789.646, "end": 1794.53, "text": "So there's a story about that, that Sid Meier tells, that the two of you had" }, { "start": 1794.53, "end": 1797.912, "text": "finished Railroad Tycoon, and now the question was, what's next?" }, { "start": 1798.653, "end": 1803.877, "text": "You were sitting on an Amtrak train to New York, discussing a potential next" }, { "start": 1803.877, "end": 1807.8, "text": "project, and the two of you decided that it had to be something bigger than" }, { "start": 1807.8, "end": 1809.861, "text": "railroads. Okay, what's bigger than railroads?" }, { "start": 1810.182, "end": 1811.983, "text": "The entire history of human civilization." }, { "start": 1812.964, "end": 1814.645, "text": "Do you remember it that way too?" }, { "start": 1814.645, "end": 1817.827, "text": "I don't remember exactly that conversation, but like I said," }, { "start": 1817.827, "end": 1822.571, "text": "we talked every day, sometimes for hours, an incredible number of stuff got" }, { "start": 1822.571, "end": 1824.492, "text": "covered. Sometimes it had nothing to do with our work." }, { "start": 1825.534, "end": 1828.816, "text": "But it was very interesting. He and I were both very avid readers," }, { "start": 1828.816, "end": 1831.848, "text": "reading of all kinds of history and stuff. And I think, as I recall," }, { "start": 1831.848, "end": 1835.861, "text": "the idea that a topic should be a big topic. When you're making a game," }, { "start": 1835.861, "end": 1837.823, "text": "make it a big game. Make it a big topic." }, { "start": 1838.684, "end": 1841.686, "text": "I think we were influenced because we played this board game civilization." }, { "start": 1842.146, "end": 1846.229, "text": "We'd also been playing a lot of Empire Deluxe and talking about that game," }, { "start": 1846.229, "end": 1849.532, "text": "what was right about that game, what was not, what could we do to make it better." }, { "start": 1849.953, "end": 1853.294, "text": "And then we talked about it. And we were also influenced by SimCity," }, { "start": 1853.294, "end": 1858.657, "text": "that game. I think those three things came together as we were finishing Railroad" }, { "start": 1858.657, "end": 1860.719, "text": "Tycoon and what he had done with Railroad Tycoon." }, { "start": 1861.824, "end": 1864.626, "text": "And I thought that we were looking for something new, as you say." }, { "start": 1864.626, "end": 1868.109, "text": "And then these three things that we've been playing, each brought something" }, { "start": 1868.109, "end": 1871.731, "text": "to the puzzle. And he came up with the idea, the concept that it would become civilization." }, { "start": 1872.212, "end": 1875.775, "text": "I remember, you know, he was always tinkering with his computer." }, { "start": 1875.775, "end": 1878.897, "text": "He had projects on his computer all the time, little games. He was thinking" }, { "start": 1878.897, "end": 1882.88, "text": "about, we never knew when something he was tinkering with would turn into a real project." }, { "start": 1883.161, "end": 1887.284, "text": "I remember one was about making yourself tiny and going inside the human body" }, { "start": 1887.284, "end": 1888.745, "text": "and going around and killing organisms." }, { "start": 1889.526, "end": 1892.628, "text": "As like a rocket ship in the bloodstream killing villains." }, { "start": 1893.088, "end": 1896.67, "text": "That was one of his games. And there was another one about a family spreading" }, { "start": 1896.67, "end": 1900.713, "text": "west across the United States, having children, all getting involved with the" }, { "start": 1900.713, "end": 1902.615, "text": "settlement and this alliteration of the American West." }, { "start": 1902.615, "end": 1905.917, "text": "There was another game he had. And he had several of those. And I think one" }, { "start": 1905.917, "end": 1909.339, "text": "day, I remember this explicitly because he gave me a disc in May of 1990." }, { "start": 1909.339, "end": 1913.062, "text": "He gave me a five and a quarter floppy disc that had Civilization on it," }, { "start": 1913.062, "end": 1914.462, "text": "the first version of Civilization." }, { "start": 1915.144, "end": 1919.156, "text": "And I saved that this, because I had not saved the first version of Railroad" }, { "start": 1919.156, "end": 1922.409, "text": "Tycoon when he gave me that. It went away and got redone or something, rebranded." }, { "start": 1922.749, "end": 1927.392, "text": "But I saved that first version of Civilization, and I had it for years and years and years." }, { "start": 1927.893, "end": 1931.195, "text": "I was going to give it to a museum that's recording the history of computer" }, { "start": 1931.195, "end": 1933.677, "text": "games, and I asked him if that was okay. He said, no, I want that." }, { "start": 1934.157, "end": 1938.16, "text": "So I mailed it back to him, and I think his team at Firaxis got it running again." }, { "start": 1938.58, "end": 1943.243, "text": "So they actually got the first playable version of Civilization that ever existed" }, { "start": 1943.243, "end": 1946.786, "text": "off of Sid's computer running again at their offices at some point." }, { "start": 1946.786, "end": 1949.648, "text": "I said, you should put that online, let people see that, just what it was like." }, { "start": 1949.648, "end": 1953.29, "text": "I think it was a real-time game, and it was a little different than what was" }, { "start": 1953.29, "end": 1956.112, "text": "finally published. But that was the way we worked. I mean, every day," }, { "start": 1956.112, "end": 1959.775, "text": "I'd get a new version and play it, and go back and talk to him for an hour or" }, { "start": 1959.775, "end": 1962.707, "text": "two about what we liked and didn't like, and he'd get a new version made." }, { "start": 1963.137, "end": 1966.92, "text": "I gave a speech or a presentation years later at the German Game Developers" }, { "start": 1966.92, "end": 1970.862, "text": "Conference, I think, called Design by Playing, and we learned that making board" }, { "start": 1970.862, "end": 1974.005, "text": "games, that's how we made board games. And here we are doing the same exact" }, { "start": 1974.005, "end": 1974.985, "text": "thing with computer games." }, { "start": 1976.026, "end": 1979.589, "text": "Prototype early, play it every day, make changes based on what you're thinking about." }, { "start": 1980.07, "end": 1983.392, "text": "Forget about these long design documents, just play it and make changes." }, { "start": 1983.392, "end": 1986.194, "text": "That was the way he worked. And he didn't let anybody else play it," }, { "start": 1986.194, "end": 1987.275, "text": "which I thought was interesting." }, { "start": 1987.816, "end": 1990.978, "text": "Because it became pretty clear pretty soon, this is an interesting game," }, { "start": 1990.978, "end": 1991.859, "text": "people are really liking it." }, { "start": 1992.359, "end": 1995.361, "text": "And other guys wanted to play it, people who wanted to work with him wanted" }, { "start": 1995.361, "end": 1997.963, "text": "to play it. He said, no, no, for now it's just Bruce and I. And I'm telling" }, { "start": 1997.963, "end": 1999.725, "text": "you, for months, I was the was the only one allowed to play it." }, { "start": 1999.725, "end": 2001.407, "text": "What made you special to him?" }, { "start": 2001.407, "end": 2006.052, "text": "He said years later that I was everyman. My tastes were broad enough that they" }, { "start": 2006.052, "end": 2007.393, "text": "covered a large part of the marketplace." }, { "start": 2007.753, "end": 2010.957, "text": "I wasn't an extreme hardcore player and I wasn't a noob." }, { "start": 2011.612, "end": 2015.315, "text": "And i was you know reasonably smart enough that i captured a big part of the" }, { "start": 2015.315, "end": 2016.736, "text": "audience and what if i didn't like it." }, { "start": 2017.196, "end": 2020.679, "text": "It's probably not good for a lot of people if i did like it was probably good" }, { "start": 2020.679, "end": 2023.621, "text": "enough and it was just enough of a sounding board for him." }, { "start": 2024.221, "end": 2028.784, "text": "That i represented the whole marketplace is a tester and i'll use later after" }, { "start": 2028.784, "end": 2031.886, "text": "that i said that was a mistake because there were mistakes that gain or publish" }, { "start": 2031.886, "end": 2035.809, "text": "every fix pretty quickly and i think we need to find those earlier so when i" }, { "start": 2035.809, "end": 2039.692, "text": "was working let's say it on some studios we put a heavy emphasis on testing." }, { "start": 2040.173, "end": 2044.335, "text": "And we had everybody in the company play our games in ensemble every week." }, { "start": 2044.335, "end": 2047.998, "text": "You were required to play the game every week, once at least, and talk about it." }, { "start": 2048.339, "end": 2052.141, "text": "For Age 2, we hired some of the best players in the world to come work for us," }, { "start": 2052.141, "end": 2056.444, "text": "to test the game. Because I thought testing was a little short for Civilization," }, { "start": 2056.444, "end": 2058.806, "text": "and I wanted to make sure we didn't make that mistake again." }, { "start": 2058.806, "end": 2063.209, "text": "When you were looking for new projects, and ultimately Civilization" }, { "start": 2063.209, "end": 2067.552, "text": "made the cut, I heard Sid Meier mention in passing somewhere that The two of" }, { "start": 2067.552, "end": 2071.755, "text": "you originally pitched a sequel to Railroad Tycoon to the management, is that correct?" }, { "start": 2072.696, "end": 2075.018, "text": "Yes, true. There was going to be a sequel to Railroad Tycoon." }, { "start": 2075.018, "end": 2077.5, "text": "We actually worked on it for a month." }, { "start": 2077.5, "end": 2080.822, "text": "I came up with new maps, and I think it was going to be other countries in Europe," }, { "start": 2080.822, "end": 2083.004, "text": "that's where it was going to go. I can't remember, maybe India." }, { "start": 2083.004, "end": 2086.706, "text": "I don't remember now exactly what it was in, but the president of the company," }, { "start": 2086.706, "end": 2088.527, "text": "he was focused on flight simulators." }, { "start": 2088.928, "end": 2094.011, "text": "He wanted a flight simulator every year, being a pilot. He thought that was a big, big moneymaker." }, { "start": 2094.752, "end": 2098.234, "text": "Railroad Tycoon started off slow. It wasn't a massive hit right away or anything." }, { "start": 2098.615, "end": 2101.517, "text": "And I think he didn't want to spend any more money on it. So he couldn't really" }, { "start": 2101.517, "end": 2104.158, "text": "tell Sid what to work on, but I was forbidden to work on it." }, { "start": 2104.158, "end": 2107.861, "text": "I was told, no more Railroad Tycoon. You, no more Railroad Tycoon." }, { "start": 2109.062, "end": 2113.304, "text": "How would you describe the relationship between Sid Meier," }, { "start": 2113.304, "end": 2116.707, "text": "who was the company's star designer, and Bill Steele, the president," }, { "start": 2116.707, "end": 2117.907, "text": "who basically ran the show?" }, { "start": 2118.228, "end": 2122.29, "text": "I'm not sure how to say that. I think Bill was focused on the company other" }, { "start": 2122.29, "end": 2124.351, "text": "than Sid, and Sid was the wildcard." }, { "start": 2125.092, "end": 2128.944, "text": "He could hit a home run, you know, and get a massive hit, or he could do a game" }, { "start": 2128.944, "end": 2130.509, "text": "that maybe wasn't that big a deal, but." }, { "start": 2131.241, "end": 2135.384, "text": "Bill was focused on we were building arcade games at the time they had a big" }, { "start": 2135.384, "end": 2139.907, "text": "investment in arcade games And he had built this other teams like brian reynolds" }, { "start": 2139.907, "end": 2143.689, "text": "was making games who went on to be pretty well known For the company and there" }, { "start": 2143.689, "end": 2146.291, "text": "were other games being developed and I don't know I'm," }, { "start": 2146.291, "end": 2149.293, "text": "not sure that he got along fine with sid as far as I can tell I never saw any" }, { "start": 2149.293, "end": 2151.354, "text": "kind of In a monster or anything like that." }, { "start": 2151.354, "end": 2154.557, "text": "They just got along fine I think he just basically if he had to say he just" }, { "start": 2154.557, "end": 2157.619, "text": "put up with sid And hoped that they would deliver something," }, { "start": 2157.619, "end": 2161.241, "text": "you know, because sid had made the company, you know, those early games had" }, { "start": 2161.241, "end": 2164.724, "text": "made the company so there was no question that he was important and" }, { "start": 2164.724, "end": 2167.546, "text": "he just kind of hoped that he would get another winner you know" }, { "start": 2167.546, "end": 2170.268, "text": "which of course he did I mean civilization was a" }, { "start": 2170.268, "end": 2173.23, "text": "massive hit and made a lot of money for the company and I think it opened up" }, { "start": 2173.23, "end": 2177.733, "text": "the eyes of the management to the company Bill and others that wow here's a" }, { "start": 2177.733, "end": 2181.116, "text": "game that's not a flight simulator is doing fantastic you know it's really making" }, { "start": 2181.116, "end": 2186.5, "text": "money so I think they got along fine but Bill was focused on the other parts" }, { "start": 2186.5, "end": 2188.001, "text": "of the company that he actually could control." }, { "start": 2188.001, "end": 2191.844, "text": "I see. I mean, Microprose had at that point already published a" }, { "start": 2191.844, "end": 2195.067, "text": "couple of strategy games. Sid Meier had written a couple in the 80s," }, { "start": 2195.067, "end": 2198.79, "text": "but apparently that was not the genre to be in at that point." }, { "start": 2198.79, "end": 2201.792, "text": "I'm not sure what the thinking was. They didn't share their thoughts" }, { "start": 2201.792, "end": 2205.195, "text": "with me about that kind of stuff. But when Sid asked me to be his assistant" }, { "start": 2205.195, "end": 2208.958, "text": "or work with him, I said, I'm happy to do this, man. This is great." }, { "start": 2208.958, "end": 2211.179, "text": "I thought this was an incredible opportunity for me personally." }, { "start": 2211.7, "end": 2214.865, "text": "I was happy. I was dating the woman I was going to marry at that point." }, { "start": 2214.865, "end": 2217.772, "text": "I would work this job for nothing if I could figure out a way to make a living." }, { "start": 2217.772, "end": 2219.495, "text": "I'm having so much fun with what I do." }, { "start": 2220.151, "end": 2223.773, "text": "Every day to make these games. It's so interesting and so much fun that I would" }, { "start": 2223.773, "end": 2228.457, "text": "do it for nothing if I could make a living some other way because it was just a blast to work with him." }, { "start": 2229.798, "end": 2233.22, "text": "These conversations and the things I was learning and the experience I was having" }, { "start": 2233.22, "end": 2236.953, "text": "and the games we were making. I mean I was pretty sure when we were building" }, { "start": 2236.953, "end": 2239.385, "text": "Civilization that we were making something that's going to rock the world." }, { "start": 2239.825, "end": 2243.428, "text": "The gaming world was going to be really really excited when this game came out" }, { "start": 2243.428, "end": 2246.43, "text": "and I mean one of our salesmen was Glenn Drover." }, { "start": 2246.43, "end": 2249.332, "text": "He now has his own game company. He builds board games now mostly." }, { "start": 2249.332, "end": 2252.795, "text": "He was hired, but he wanted to be a game designer, but they hired him as a salesman" }, { "start": 2252.795, "end": 2255.157, "text": "because that's what he was, and he became one of our best salesmen." }, { "start": 2255.517, "end": 2258.439, "text": "But every time he was in town for a sales meeting, as soon as he was free," }, { "start": 2258.439, "end": 2261.201, "text": "boom, he was down in my office. Okay, show me what Sid's building now." }, { "start": 2261.661, "end": 2264.764, "text": "And he was dying to play it. He was asking all these questions," }, { "start": 2264.764, "end": 2267.125, "text": "standing on my shoulder, sitting to pull up a chair and just watch." }, { "start": 2267.125, "end": 2270.227, "text": "So I mean, people knew we were making something really cool," }, { "start": 2270.227, "end": 2271.608, "text": "and I knew we were making something cool." }, { "start": 2271.608, "end": 2275.672, "text": "And it's just a question of finishing it and getting it in the public's At the" }, { "start": 2275.672, "end": 2279.394, "text": "point where Sid Meier gave you that first prototype in May 1990," }, { "start": 2279.394, "end": 2286.94, "text": "he tells the story that you immediately recognized that prototype as something special." }, { "start": 2287.921, "end": 2289.722, "text": "Do you remember what you saw in it?" }, { "start": 2291.644, "end": 2296.227, "text": "Well, I guess I would say that it embodied all the good things about game development." }, { "start": 2296.227, "end": 2297.488, "text": "You know, it started off slow." }, { "start": 2297.968, "end": 2302.212, "text": "I have an expression I've used years later called the inverted pyramid of decision-making," }, { "start": 2302.212, "end": 2306.455, "text": "where you have a couple things to think about, and as soon as you make those" }, { "start": 2306.455, "end": 2309.717, "text": "decisions, that's opened up four more, and then it becomes eight," }, { "start": 2309.717, "end": 2311.559, "text": "and then it becomes 16 decisions you have to make." }, { "start": 2312.3, "end": 2317.163, "text": "You're incredibly engaged. There's an expression in gaming, is it fun or is" }, { "start": 2317.163, "end": 2320.286, "text": "it not fun? I think as a professional, you need to know what makes it fun." }, { "start": 2320.286, "end": 2323.288, "text": "Fun is just a word for the common people, but as a designer," }, { "start": 2323.288, "end": 2326.23, "text": "you need to understand why is it fun and why is it not fun." }, { "start": 2326.271, "end": 2330.254, "text": "And I think that game engaged my mind with these decision-makings." }, { "start": 2330.455, "end": 2334.198, "text": "I mean, Sid is actually in a speech he gave one time, a game is a series of" }, { "start": 2334.198, "end": 2337.662, "text": "interesting decisions. And he told me years later that he still believes that's the case." }, { "start": 2338.237, "end": 2341.569, "text": "But I think a game is more than just a series of decisions, but it is a series" }, { "start": 2341.569, "end": 2345.072, "text": "of decisions. And I think he did a good job of capturing that." }, { "start": 2345.072, "end": 2347.693, "text": "There's the unknowns, the map was going to be hidden." }, { "start": 2348.274, "end": 2351.326, "text": "You didn't know what was out there. So you're discovering things," }, { "start": 2351.326, "end": 2353.397, "text": "you're making decisions, you're exploring." }, { "start": 2353.858, "end": 2358.421, "text": "I mean, it's the 4X game, right? It was a classic improvement on that style" }, { "start": 2358.421, "end": 2361.663, "text": "of game. And personally, I thought it was great because I'm interested in history." }, { "start": 2361.663, "end": 2364.505, "text": "I've read a lot about the origins of humanity." }, { "start": 2365.005, "end": 2368.228, "text": "So it captured my imagination immediately. And I thought there must be an awful" }, { "start": 2368.228, "end": 2371.67, "text": "lot of people out there who would find this really interesting as well." }, { "start": 2371.67, "end": 2372.871, "text": "And that proved to be true." }, { "start": 2373.192, "end": 2377.915, "text": "And then you entered that iterative circle that you've described of him making" }, { "start": 2377.915, "end": 2381.538, "text": "a daily build, you playing it, providing feedback, the two of you discussing" }, { "start": 2381.538, "end": 2384.4, "text": "it, that turning into the next prototype, and so on and so on." }, { "start": 2384.4, "end": 2387.843, "text": "So that was essentially the professional collaboration that you had." }, { "start": 2387.843, "end": 2391.866, "text": "Now, how would you describe your personal relationship or your dynamic?" }, { "start": 2393.148, "end": 2396.43, "text": "Well, I think we became good friends. I mean, he came to our wedding when I" }, { "start": 2396.43, "end": 2397.631, "text": "got married. He came to our wedding." }, { "start": 2398.012, "end": 2402.655, "text": "We did lunches, you know, together. I mean, Railroad Tycoon, we did field trips." }, { "start": 2402.655, "end": 2405.497, "text": "I mean, that was incredible. We went up to Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania," }, { "start": 2405.497, "end": 2409.56, "text": "where the steam railroad runs, and the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum is located." }, { "start": 2409.56, "end": 2413.864, "text": "There's a hotel where all the hotel rooms are actually railroad cars that you" }, { "start": 2413.864, "end": 2417.186, "text": "sleep overnight in. So, we did this day trip up there, and we just immersed" }, { "start": 2417.186, "end": 2419.908, "text": "ourselves in electric in our railroads. Then we went to Washington, D.C." }, { "start": 2420.429, "end": 2423.03, "text": "Took the train to Washington, D.C., as you mentioned. And then we went to the" }, { "start": 2423.03, "end": 2427.253, "text": "Smithsonian Museum, looked at their railroad exhibit. So he had a way of getting" }, { "start": 2427.253, "end": 2429.174, "text": "people fired up for what they're working on." }, { "start": 2429.765, "end": 2432.467, "text": "And I think we became friends. We talked like a lot of stuff," }, { "start": 2432.467, "end": 2436.39, "text": "not necessarily game stuff. We had several interests. We talked about history" }, { "start": 2436.39, "end": 2441.254, "text": "and biology, and he's a very interesting person. And our interests mirrored" }, { "start": 2441.254, "end": 2444.617, "text": "each other in some ways. We read some of the same books or talked about books we read." }, { "start": 2445.358, "end": 2450.301, "text": "And we played these board games. And we talked a lot about the skill of a board" }, { "start": 2450.301, "end": 2454.945, "text": "game designer, how a game is actually made. Nobody had written a book on game development." }, { "start": 2455.105, "end": 2458.447, "text": "There was nothing, you know, we all learn by trial and error, you know." }, { "start": 2458.628, "end": 2462.09, "text": "So I think what he was interested in doing, and to some extent me as well," }, { "start": 2462.09, "end": 2465.893, "text": "is like, how do we get the next level of game designers a couple rungs up the" }, { "start": 2465.893, "end": 2470.676, "text": "ladder of learning what to do without having to go through all the hard work that we did through?" }, { "start": 2470.676, "end": 2475.53, "text": "I mean, he really gave a lot of thought to what was actually going on as you" }, { "start": 2475.53, "end": 2478.762, "text": "built a game, and the principles of game development, and things like that." }, { "start": 2478.762, "end": 2482.985, "text": "So the idea of prototyping early, design by playing, you know," }, { "start": 2482.985, "end": 2487.408, "text": "play every day, you know, recode, those kind of things. That was very interesting" }, { "start": 2487.408, "end": 2491.151, "text": "for me. I think we shared an interest in that because I came from that board" }, { "start": 2491.151, "end": 2492.892, "text": "game industry, which he had not experienced." }, { "start": 2493.653, "end": 2498.236, "text": "And I saw how we did it over there. And there was so many parallels to the same" }, { "start": 2498.236, "end": 2501.698, "text": "thing. We became pretty good friends, I think, you know, no question about it." }, { "start": 2501.698, "end": 2505.161, "text": "I remember going to lunch one time and decide whether we're going to make Railroad" }, { "start": 2505.161, "end": 2508.043, "text": "Tycoon or Covert Action. I mean, it was a funny lunch." }, { "start": 2508.543, "end": 2511.619, "text": "And I said, well, my money's on Railroad Tycoon. I mean, I was interested in" }, { "start": 2511.619, "end": 2514.818, "text": "in a railroad as a kid, you know, we used to ride trains to visit my grandparents," }, { "start": 2514.818, "end": 2517.73, "text": "overnight trains, and I had a model railroad." }, { "start": 2517.73, "end": 2520.451, "text": "I had model railroading merit badge as a boy scout, you know," }, { "start": 2520.451, "end": 2524.734, "text": "so I was interested in trains. And so I remember that lunch at a steakhouse" }, { "start": 2524.734, "end": 2527.296, "text": "and we sat there and decided that we would do railroad tycoon." }, { "start": 2527.296, "end": 2530.638, "text": "And he went back and told Bill, we're going to stop working on the covert action" }, { "start": 2530.638, "end": 2532.139, "text": "game and do railroad tycoon." }, { "start": 2532.6, "end": 2536.482, "text": "And I think Bill went, okay, whatever. And so that's how we got to do it." }, { "start": 2536.482, "end": 2540.505, "text": "But then that's why we couldn't do railroad tycoon too, because Bill says," }, { "start": 2540.505, "end": 2542.305, "text": "okay, I let you skip that." }, { "start": 2542.628, "end": 2546.07, "text": "Spy game, Covert Action, but now I want you to finish it.\" So we had to finish" }, { "start": 2546.07, "end": 2549.293, "text": "Covert Action before we could go on to something new." }, { "start": 2550.594, "end": 2554.797, "text": "So Civilization was a little bit put on the sideline, and the Railroad Tycoon" }, { "start": 2554.797, "end": 2558.6, "text": "2 was completely stopped, and we did Covert Action. And my memory of Covert" }, { "start": 2558.6, "end": 2561.883, "text": "Action was, one of the things about it was, I said, well, this little sub game" }, { "start": 2561.883, "end": 2564.364, "text": "is not that interesting. Can we do something about making it?" }, { "start": 2564.364, "end": 2565.406, "text": "He says, nope, nope, nope, we're just finishing this." }, { "start": 2565.946, "end": 2569.329, "text": "We're not going to putz around with this game." }, { "start": 2569.329, "end": 2570.67, "text": "It was not a passion project for either of you." }, { "start": 2571.191, "end": 2574.193, "text": "He agreed to do it, and it was interesting enough that he would do it," }, { "start": 2574.193, "end": 2576.214, "text": "but it wasn't a passion project at the end." }, { "start": 2576.595, "end": 2580.337, "text": "So I stopped making suggestions about how to make covert action better," }, { "start": 2580.337, "end": 2584.1, "text": "and we just completed it. And then we got to do Civilization." }, { "start": 2584.421, "end": 2589.084, "text": "And as you described, initially Civilization was just between the" }, { "start": 2589.084, "end": 2592.967, "text": "two of you. But at some point, then Sid decided to share it within the company." }, { "start": 2593.188, "end": 2598.712, "text": "And in the designer's notes in the manual, there's this line. I think you wrote that." }, { "start": 2599.232, "end": 2603.655, "text": "Wrote, it proved to be extraordinarily popular with the employees within Microprose." }, { "start": 2605.457, "end": 2606.437, "text": "What did that mean?" }, { "start": 2606.437, "end": 2609.94, "text": "Well, it meant that when we had a game that needed to be tested," }, { "start": 2609.94, "end": 2611.501, "text": "we'd ask people to play it." }, { "start": 2612.022, "end": 2615.324, "text": "Sometimes you had to really work hard to get people to play it and give you feedback." }, { "start": 2615.805, "end": 2618.807, "text": "That wasn't the case with Civilization. Everybody wanted to play it." }, { "start": 2619.048, "end": 2623.11, "text": "Everybody was playing it and bombarding us with ideas and suggestions and things like that." }, { "start": 2623.651, "end": 2627.894, "text": "So it had a tremendous reception within the company. We opened it up to more players." }, { "start": 2628.455, "end": 2630.735, "text": "Everybody had to give it a try. Everybody was very enthusiastic." }, { "start": 2632.217, "end": 2634.679, "text": "They loved it. They said, okay, this is going to be great. I mean," }, { "start": 2634.679, "end": 2638.562, "text": "the way I felt day one, now the whole company felt that way." }, { "start": 2638.562, "end": 2642.325, "text": "It seems that everybody was happy to play the game at that point," }, { "start": 2642.325, "end": 2646.588, "text": "but you mentioned once that it was pretty difficult to get people to actually" }, { "start": 2646.588, "end": 2649.19, "text": "work on the game. Why is that?" }, { "start": 2649.19, "end": 2653.053, "text": "Well, that was because getting people to work on the game was handled" }, { "start": 2653.053, "end": 2654.875, "text": "by the guy in charge of game development." }, { "start": 2655.255, "end": 2658.458, "text": "I mean, we wanted more art, let's say. We wanted more art pieces." }, { "start": 2658.458, "end": 2662.681, "text": "We wanted some programming on the front end or back end of the game or something." }, { "start": 2663.121, "end": 2668.185, "text": "And so that meant that the guy in charge had to allocate people from the staff" }, { "start": 2668.185, "end": 2673.027, "text": "to do the work. I mean, Sid couldn't go tell this guy to work. I mean, he had to go to..." }, { "start": 2672.261, "end": 2676.224, "text": "Our development VP to get people to do it. And he said, well," }, { "start": 2676.224, "end": 2678.586, "text": "that guy's busy on something more important to me, you know," }, { "start": 2678.586, "end": 2680.667, "text": "so it was a struggle to get help." }, { "start": 2681.048, "end": 2685.35, "text": "That's what I meant by that. Eventually, as the company's enthusiasm for the" }, { "start": 2685.35, "end": 2689.353, "text": "game was just palpable, we got the help we needed, but it still meant the game" }, { "start": 2689.353, "end": 2690.634, "text": "came out later than expected." }, { "start": 2690.634, "end": 2695.598, "text": "I see. Well, art is actually a great segue into the next section of things that" }, { "start": 2695.598, "end": 2699.04, "text": "I'd like to discuss with you, because I have a couple of questions about specific" }, { "start": 2699.04, "end": 2705.335, "text": "design elements of civilization that I find striking, and I'd love to hear your take on those." }, { "start": 2705.725, "end": 2711.169, "text": "So first of all, in 2017 you did that GDC post-mortem with Cid," }, { "start": 2711.169, "end": 2717.374, "text": "and in that post-mortem you mentioned that for both of you, graphics were not" }, { "start": 2717.374, "end": 2717.974, "text": "particularly important." }, { "start": 2720.097, "end": 2726.161, "text": "If we look at the typical strategy game of that era, they were visually rather bland, I would say." }, { "start": 2726.161, "end": 2731.885, "text": "But But Civilization ultimately turned out to be a visually rich VGA game with" }, { "start": 2731.885, "end": 2736.048, "text": "a surprising amount of eye candy. How did that come about?" }, { "start": 2736.309, "end": 2739.831, "text": "We were going through a transition with graphics in that time period." }, { "start": 2739.831, "end": 2743.934, "text": "I started off with four-color graphics, and we were so excited when we got 16" }, { "start": 2743.934, "end": 2745.155, "text": "colors we could put in a game." }, { "start": 2745.455, "end": 2748.377, "text": "Although we couldn't use all 16, we didn't have the programming power to use" }, { "start": 2748.377, "end": 2752.62, "text": "all 16, we had to develop a palette. And then we got 64 colors to make a game," }, { "start": 2752.62, "end": 2754.982, "text": "and so it was like, wow, we're rich beyond imagining." }, { "start": 2755.223, "end": 2759.405, "text": "So I think that we had grown up in a world where we had to be minimalist." }, { "start": 2759.405, "end": 2763.248, "text": "The graphics was not something we had a lot of functionality with," }, { "start": 2763.248, "end": 2767.051, "text": "so we focused on the decisions the player would make, the game design," }, { "start": 2767.051, "end": 2768.862, "text": "not so much what it looked like." }, { "start": 2769.193, "end": 2773.656, "text": "So I came out of a world where what it looked like was secondary to the decision" }, { "start": 2773.656, "end": 2775.858, "text": "making the player would make, the things the player would be doing." }, { "start": 2775.939, "end": 2779.541, "text": "And I think Sid, to some extent, was restricted by that as well." }, { "start": 2779.801, "end": 2783.005, "text": "But then when the graphics became more and more of a functionality," }, { "start": 2783.005, "end": 2787.371, "text": "we had our art director who had a good ideas about how to make it look better." }, { "start": 2787.752, "end": 2789.874, "text": "And so a lot of the decisions about the art." }, { "start": 2790.418, "end": 2793.4, "text": "Fell to the art team, and they did a wonderful job." }, { "start": 2793.881, "end": 2797.083, "text": "I think the credit for that, in a lot of ways, would go to the art people," }, { "start": 2797.083, "end": 2800.986, "text": "who took that ball and ran with it, made some really good decisions about how it would look." }, { "start": 2801.257, "end": 2803.728, "text": "It certainly wasn't me. I was not art-oriented." }, { "start": 2804.349, "end": 2808.712, "text": "I was focused on decisions the player was making, how the game proceeded," }, { "start": 2808.712, "end": 2812.895, "text": "the technology and the things you unlocked, how the game would flow." }, { "start": 2813.636, "end": 2815.677, "text": "The art was like somebody else's responsibility." }, { "start": 2816.218, "end": 2818.399, "text": "Was there a producer on Civilization?" }, { "start": 2819.24, "end": 2823.563, "text": "To the extent there was a producer, it was me. I was the guy who did all the" }, { "start": 2823.563, "end": 2828.206, "text": "stuff that Sid didn't want to do, and I think that I had a responsibility of" }, { "start": 2828.206, "end": 2829.347, "text": "liaising with everybody." }, { "start": 2830.008, "end": 2833.65, "text": "The art was decided, I think, by our art director. I'm kidding." }, { "start": 2833.65, "end": 2836.472, "text": "He's an old man. His name is Mike. I can't remember his last name." }, { "start": 2837.073, "end": 2840.155, "text": "But he would make a lot of decisions about art, and he was very good at that." }, { "start": 2840.495, "end": 2845.138, "text": "He would have a theme for our look, and I think it was a credit to him that the game looked so well." }, { "start": 2845.138, "end": 2848.861, "text": "So I'm imagining right now, and you correct me if that's wrong," }, { "start": 2848.861, "end": 2853.985, "text": "that for the longest time during the development, there was basically this prototype" }, { "start": 2853.985, "end": 2858.148, "text": "with programmers' art that Sid created by himself in there." }, { "start": 2858.148, "end": 2861.351, "text": "And then at some point, that gets passed on to the art director," }, { "start": 2861.351, "end": 2864.413, "text": "or they get drawn into that project group." }, { "start": 2864.874, "end": 2870.698, "text": "And then they basically just take what's there and expand on that and turn that into beautiful art." }, { "start": 2871.18, "end": 2874.102, "text": "I think that's probably the case. You'd have to ask Sid how much" }, { "start": 2874.102, "end": 2877.446, "text": "of his original art went out in the game. Is it published? I don't know." }, { "start": 2877.728, "end": 2880.75, "text": "I don't remember giving a lot of thought to that. I guess I looked at it every" }, { "start": 2880.75, "end": 2883.454, "text": "day, and things were changing every day, so..." }, { "start": 2884.556, "end": 2887.438, "text": "Thinking that, oh, SID's art's been changed never entered my mind." }, { "start": 2887.438, "end": 2892.562, "text": "Looking back, whatever, 35 years, I don't remember thinking about that as much." }, { "start": 2892.562, "end": 2896.145, "text": "If it looked better, I was pleased, and I was still focused on how I was playing." }, { "start": 2897.065, "end": 2901.609, "text": "Maybe everything in that game is new, and none of it is originally SID's handmade" }, { "start": 2901.609, "end": 2902.549, "text": "art. I don't remember now." }, { "start": 2902.549, "end": 2905.732, "text": "I'm just reinforcing that point, or asking that question," }, { "start": 2905.732, "end": 2911.236, "text": "because I'd say that yes, Civilization is a very clever and even elegant game" }, { "start": 2911.236, "end": 2916.78, "text": "mechanically, but what tends to get overlooked is that for its time it was also" }, { "start": 2916.78, "end": 2918.081, "text": "visually very appealing." }, { "start": 2918.081, "end": 2923.064, "text": "And I think that is a key element of why it was ultimately such a huge success." }, { "start": 2923.064, "end": 2926.687, "text": "It's pretty much the same story with Age of Empires six years later," }, { "start": 2926.687, "end": 2930.95, "text": "because I think that most people who saw Age of Empires first recognized it" }, { "start": 2930.95, "end": 2933.171, "text": "as an extraordinarily beautiful game." }, { "start": 2933.171, "end": 2936.794, "text": "And that is part of the appeal that drew people to that game." }, { "start": 2936.794, "end": 2940.157, "text": "And I think it's the same with Civilization for its time?" }, { "start": 2940.737, "end": 2943.299, "text": "That's probably true. I mean, I can't argue with it. I think that's very true." }, { "start": 2943.299, "end": 2946.601, "text": "It's like another presentation I made once at a game promise was like," }, { "start": 2946.601, "end": 2951.695, "text": "when you're making a new game, you have to be different, differentiate and innovate. You can't copy." }, { "start": 2952.126, "end": 2955.829, "text": "It has to be different when you look at it. Age of Empires was different when" }, { "start": 2955.829, "end": 2958.971, "text": "you looked at it. It was not Command and Conquer. It was not Warcraft." }, { "start": 2959.311, "end": 2963.114, "text": "It was different. And it was also historical. But civilization was different" }, { "start": 2963.114, "end": 2964.315, "text": "than anything out there at the time." }, { "start": 2964.315, "end": 2967.398, "text": "I think it looked different than some of the other strategy games that are out" }, { "start": 2967.398, "end": 2970.34, "text": "there. And I think that was a big selling point. It was like the artwork drew" }, { "start": 2970.34, "end": 2973.442, "text": "you in, it welcomed you, you felt familiar with it, you wanted to explore," }, { "start": 2973.442, "end": 2977.325, "text": "you wanted to see more of it. And that's a very positive aspect of the game." }, { "start": 2977.686, "end": 2981.428, "text": "If the game can hold your interest because of what decisions you're forced to" }, { "start": 2981.428, "end": 2985.912, "text": "make, it can also be enhanced and dramatically enhanced by how much fun it is" }, { "start": 2985.912, "end": 2987.693, "text": "to look at the stuff you're seeing on screen." }, { "start": 2987.693, "end": 2988.153, "text": "Indeed." }, { "start": 2988.153, "end": 2993.46, "text": "And so I think that perhaps is an underestimated, undervalued aspect to civilization" }, { "start": 2993.46, "end": 2997.646, "text": "that it did look really great on your screen compared to what was out there" }, { "start": 2997.646, "end": 3002.093, "text": "at the time and what you've been playing up to that point. So the art was a very positive." }, { "start": 3002.766, "end": 3004.948, "text": "Addition to the game, a component to it." }, { "start": 3004.948, "end": 3009.371, "text": "I'd say there's another undervalued aspect of Civilization," }, { "start": 3009.371, "end": 3012.614, "text": "and that doesn't go back to the art team, but to you as the designers." }, { "start": 3014.596, "end": 3019.139, "text": "Having great game mechanics is one thing, but then there's the interactive layer," }, { "start": 3019.139, "end": 3020.66, "text": "so to speak, of the user interface." }, { "start": 3021.041, "end": 3025.244, "text": "How is information presented to the users, and how can they interact with that?" }, { "start": 3025.244, "end": 3029.427, "text": "And quickly coming back to Railroad Tycoon, because I think one of the best" }, { "start": 3029.427, "end": 3033.01, "text": "things about Railroad Tycoon is the sidebar," }, { "start": 3033.01, "end": 3034.972, "text": "which has the mini-map and it" }, { "start": 3034.972, "end": 3041.076, "text": "has the train list with the small visual representations of your trains." }, { "start": 3041.777, "end": 3046.0, "text": "That's a fantastic example of what we would today call information design," }, { "start": 3046.0, "end": 3050.603, "text": "which is selecting and presenting key pieces of information in such a way that" }, { "start": 3050.603, "end": 3054.226, "text": "the users can understand them easily and interpret them easily." }, { "start": 3054.506, "end": 3059.31, "text": "And I think the same quality is in Civilization, which contains even more systems" }, { "start": 3059.31, "end": 3064.403, "text": "than Railroad Tycoon did, but it excels at visualizing the pieces of information" }, { "start": 3064.403, "end": 3069.136, "text": "that the player needs in order to understand them and then essentially manage them." }, { "start": 3069.977, "end": 3073.94, "text": "So I think given its complexity, Civilization is pretty easy to read." }, { "start": 3074.94, "end": 3079.243, "text": "How did that come about? Was there something that you were striving for?" }, { "start": 3079.534, "end": 3082.605, "text": "I don't recall. I would say that that is all Sid's responsibility." }, { "start": 3082.986, "end": 3085.948, "text": "That's his work I don't remember having any input on that kind of stuff." }, { "start": 3085.948, "end": 3089.931, "text": "Maybe I did I don't remember Maybe I told him I liked it and I encouraged him" }, { "start": 3089.931, "end": 3090.992, "text": "to do more But I don't know but" }, { "start": 3090.992, "end": 3093.894, "text": "I don't recall ever having conversations where I said you got to do this." }, { "start": 3093.894, "end": 3097.476, "text": "We're missing this This is missing. You need to put it in there I don't remember" }, { "start": 3097.476, "end": 3101.079, "text": "anything like that, but he would present these things in a new version and I'd" }, { "start": 3101.079, "end": 3103.461, "text": "say really like it That's really positive. I'd really helped me." }, { "start": 3104.121, "end": 3107.534, "text": "Maybe that's the kind of feedback I would give him but I don't remember personally" }, { "start": 3107.534, "end": 3110.906, "text": "personally, being instrumental in all that information flow." }, { "start": 3110.946, "end": 3114.549, "text": "Okay, I see. So one last thing that maybe you might remember," }, { "start": 3114.549, "end": 3118.911, "text": "because there is one thing that is suspiciously absent from the game," }, { "start": 3118.911, "end": 3121.213, "text": "and that is a load function." }, { "start": 3121.213, "end": 3125.775, "text": "So you cannot load your save game from within the game session." }, { "start": 3125.775, "end": 3130.418, "text": "You have to quit back to DOS and then restart the entire game to load." }, { "start": 3130.759, "end": 3136.002, "text": "And that is such a glaring omission that it has to be on purpose. Do you remember why?" }, { "start": 3136.002, "end": 3141.845, "text": "I have no idea about that. Programming issues like that were way out of my bailiwick." }, { "start": 3142.946, "end": 3146.309, "text": "I thought this was most certainly a design decision, that for some reason," }, { "start": 3146.309, "end": 3150.632, "text": "you didn't want players to just quickly load a game." }, { "start": 3150.632, "end": 3155.376, "text": "I had the impression, that would be my theory right now, that Sid and you wanted" }, { "start": 3155.376, "end": 3159.86, "text": "players to stick with the decisions that they made, even if they turned out" }, { "start": 3159.86, "end": 3163.803, "text": "to be detrimental, and just continue playing." }, { "start": 3163.803, "end": 3167.325, "text": "Well, you know, it's possible that that's the decision that was made." }, { "start": 3167.325, "end": 3170.158, "text": "I just don't recall it. You know, I don't remember having that being an issue." }, { "start": 3170.588, "end": 3174.411, "text": "I'm not the kind of person who's an optimizer who would quit to start over and" }, { "start": 3174.411, "end": 3178.234, "text": "do it better the second time I would start playing and then I would just keep" }, { "start": 3178.234, "end": 3180.116, "text": "going. If I made a mistake, I'd say, well." }, { "start": 3180.845, "end": 3183.327, "text": "I'll remember not to do that next time, and I'll just keep going." }, { "start": 3183.327, "end": 3187.09, "text": "The time I had invested in the game at that point would be something I didn't" }, { "start": 3187.09, "end": 3190.973, "text": "want to throw away. I mean, I'm too Scottish, maybe, to throw away all that" }, { "start": 3190.973, "end": 3193.815, "text": "effort and start over. I don't know. I just don't have any recollection of that" }, { "start": 3193.815, "end": 3194.956, "text": "being a discussion point." }, { "start": 3194.956, "end": 3199.479, "text": "That's fine. Okay, then maybe to wrap up the design part," }, { "start": 3199.479, "end": 3201.021, "text": "a quick what-if scenario." }, { "start": 3201.441, "end": 3205.174, "text": "What would you say, Bruce, how would Civilization have looked like," }, { "start": 3205.174, "end": 3207.286, "text": "turned out, if you hadn't been involved?" }, { "start": 3208.347, "end": 3212.009, "text": "Oh gosh i'd say you'd be very close to what it is you know i mean i represented" }, { "start": 3212.009, "end": 3216.652, "text": "every man and i was giving him feedback regularly and i think there's a few" }, { "start": 3216.652, "end": 3219.454, "text": "of the ideas in the game may have been mine but i" }, { "start": 3219.584, "end": 3223.657, "text": "mean i work with a bunch of really talented people there i think it's his partner" }, { "start": 3223.657, "end": 3225.078, "text": "have been one of the other designers." }, { "start": 3225.658, "end": 3229.481, "text": "I would probably been very similar i mean i think that the central design was" }, { "start": 3229.481, "end": 3232.863, "text": "all his and i don't have been a whole lot different but i would not learn as" }, { "start": 3232.863, "end": 3235.525, "text": "much so i'm eternally grateful that i was involved." }, { "start": 3236.226, "end": 3240.929, "text": "And it made a difference in my life. I think having worked on that game in the future of my life." }, { "start": 3240.929, "end": 3244.691, "text": "So, but I'm not sure that some of my colleagues wouldn't have done very well" }, { "start": 3244.691, "end": 3247.814, "text": "working with him on that team, maybe because we got along real well," }, { "start": 3247.814, "end": 3251.416, "text": "it helped him move ahead and maybe fast, maybe faster." }, { "start": 3251.416, "end": 3254.578, "text": "Some of my colleagues were more confident in their ability." }, { "start": 3254.578, "end": 3257.861, "text": "Let's say it might've been argued more for something that he didn't really want." }, { "start": 3257.861, "end": 3261.483, "text": "I mean, I'd make my case. And if he says no, and I say, okay," }, { "start": 3261.483, "end": 3264.966, "text": "decision's made, but I think some of my colleagues might have been saying," }, { "start": 3264.966, "end": 3267.868, "text": "Hey, this is not right. I'm telling you, you got to change this." }, { "start": 3267.868, "end": 3270.57, "text": "They'd be more aggressive about fighting for their position." }, { "start": 3271.071, "end": 3273.672, "text": "So maybe I was a little easier to work with than somebody else." }, { "start": 3273.672, "end": 3277.735, "text": "But I'm not sure that he couldn't have made that game without my help." }, { "start": 3277.735, "end": 3280.237, "text": "Sounds like you may be underestimating your role," }, { "start": 3280.237, "end": 3283.899, "text": "even if you were primarily the sounding board." }, { "start": 3283.899, "end": 3288.503, "text": "But it seems like you helped Zid organize his thoughts, make decisions," }, { "start": 3288.503, "end": 3294.207, "text": "get to quick decisions as well, and keep that back and forth of ideas and feedback going." }, { "start": 3295.068, "end": 3298.531, "text": "That's very possible. And maybe because I'm this kind of person I am that worked" }, { "start": 3298.531, "end": 3300.533, "text": "really well for him and it encouraged him." }, { "start": 3300.534, "end": 3303.736, "text": "You know, like I said, some of my other people might have had a much higher" }, { "start": 3303.736, "end": 3307.72, "text": "confidence in their own abilities and argued more forcefully and take longer" }, { "start": 3307.72, "end": 3309.882, "text": "to get decisions made or something like that. I don't know. But you know," }, { "start": 3309.882, "end": 3312.284, "text": "it's hard to say. I mean, I think we had a great relationship." }, { "start": 3312.604, "end": 3313.866, "text": "We work really well together." }, { "start": 3314.577, "end": 3317.619, "text": "It probably helped the game, maybe more than I'm willing to say," }, { "start": 3317.619, "end": 3321.181, "text": "but I think he was a smart guy. He was a genius on that project," }, { "start": 3321.181, "end": 3324.143, "text": "and I was the second stringer, and I helped him, and there's no question about" }, { "start": 3324.143, "end": 3326.565, "text": "it. But he would have done that game without me, I would have never done that" }, { "start": 3326.565, "end": 3328.326, "text": "game without him, I don't think. It's hard to say." }, { "start": 3328.706, "end": 3334.13, "text": "You were the representation of the audience, in a way, which is extremely important." }, { "start": 3334.13, "end": 3338.253, "text": "That's a good analogy, I think. But I was a smart enough audience that I would" }, { "start": 3338.253, "end": 3342.115, "text": "give feedback and have ideas, and it wasn't just the average player." }, { "start": 3342.115, "end": 3345.618, "text": "I mean, I had some skills and some experience, and I'm sure it helped him." }, { "start": 3346.499, "end": 3350.942, "text": "Yeah, I think we all know that providing useful feedback is an" }, { "start": 3350.942, "end": 3353.523, "text": "art in itself. It's not a skill that everybody possesses." }, { "start": 3354.504, "end": 3357.886, "text": "But anyway, so the game gets released in 1991." }, { "start": 3358.267, "end": 3362.65, "text": "At which point did you realize that it was a success, a massive success?" }, { "start": 3362.65, "end": 3367.493, "text": "I don't really know exactly when. I don't recall. I just know that the reviews were terrific." }, { "start": 3368.894, "end": 3372.477, "text": "I'm not even sure if they ran out of them at some point. They didn't make enough" }, { "start": 3372.477, "end": 3373.898, "text": "in the first run and it's possible." }, { "start": 3373.898, "end": 3378.001, "text": "I don't remember that. I just know that it seemed to hit the ground running." }, { "start": 3378.001, "end": 3381.263, "text": "It got great reviews and people were talking about it." }, { "start": 3381.263, "end": 3385.206, "text": "At the time, we didn't have an internet, and so the word of mouth was like the" }, { "start": 3385.206, "end": 3387.107, "text": "magazine articles took a while to appear." }, { "start": 3387.107, "end": 3390.409, "text": "The sales numbers were only really feedback." }, { "start": 3390.409, "end": 3392.831, "text": "And then, of course, there were some problems with the game." }, { "start": 3392.831, "end": 3395.693, "text": "People figured out a way to beat it or easily or something or cheat," }, { "start": 3395.693, "end": 3399.756, "text": "so we had to do some coding right away. At some point, they had to redo some" }, { "start": 3399.756, "end": 3403.822, "text": "things really quickly. We didn't have the instantaneous feedback that you do today." }, { "start": 3404.243, "end": 3407.737, "text": "When something is published within 24 hours, you've got a lot of people who've" }, { "start": 3407.737, "end": 3411.373, "text": "tried it, and a lot of social messaging is flowing." }, { "start": 3411.894, "end": 3416.24, "text": "So you know right away something about your game. It took a while for us to get feedback. But..." }, { "start": 3416.965, "end": 3420.388, "text": "At the scale we were used to, it was very fast and very positive." }, { "start": 3420.388, "end": 3424.011, "text": "And did the success of Civilization change anything at MicroProse?" }, { "start": 3425.172, "end": 3428.434, "text": "I'm not sure about that. I would think that the management team was a little" }, { "start": 3428.434, "end": 3430.856, "text": "more open to different ideas instead of just simulators." }, { "start": 3431.767, "end": 3435.42, "text": "Well, there's a market out there for something else, you know." }, { "start": 3435.42, "end": 3438.492, "text": "I think that they were pretty impressed with how that game was selling." }, { "start": 3439.083, "end": 3441.665, "text": "And the other teams were encouraged to make some different kinds of games," }, { "start": 3441.665, "end": 3446.028, "text": "I think. So the other people working there got permission to work on some different kinds of games." }, { "start": 3446.568, "end": 3450.29, "text": "Okay, now we're coming back to your exit at Microprose." }, { "start": 3450.891, "end": 3455.654, "text": "Now the interesting thing is, at that point in time, Civilization is out, it's a smash hit." }, { "start": 3456.215, "end": 3460.698, "text": "You and Sid Meier had proven for the second time that you were something of" }, { "start": 3460.698, "end": 3463.059, "text": "a dream team. Regular Tycoon, Civilization." }, { "start": 3464.1, "end": 3469.203, "text": "You have commented earlier that this was your dream job, working with Sid in" }, { "start": 3469.203, "end": 3474.647, "text": "particular. And Sid commented that he enjoyed working with you very much." }, { "start": 3476.249, "end": 3482.213, "text": "And yet, less than a year later, you're leaving Microprose. How did this dream team get broken up?" }, { "start": 3484.234, "end": 3489.398, "text": "I was married by then. My wife was an executive with a big bank," }, { "start": 3489.398, "end": 3493.361, "text": "a city bank, and they offered her a job that would force her to work for somebody" }, { "start": 3493.361, "end": 3497.624, "text": "she didn't really care about that much. And so she decided to retire and find" }, { "start": 3497.624, "end": 3498.904, "text": "a job in the Maryland-Baltimore-Washington area." }, { "start": 3499.185, "end": 3502.287, "text": "They wanted to move again. She already moved nine times for the company and" }, { "start": 3502.287, "end": 3506.811, "text": "they wanted to move again So I was happy with my job And so she said I'll find" }, { "start": 3506.811, "end": 3510.503, "text": "something else and so she took a year off and look for another work and then" }, { "start": 3510.503, "end": 3515.026, "text": "it turns out the economy was in terrible shape and she was having trouble finding a job and Meanwhile," }, { "start": 3515.026, "end": 3518.739, "text": "Sid and I were putzing around with a Civil War game that the Battle of Gettysburg" }, { "start": 3518.739, "end": 3521.621, "text": "I think is what it was or the American Civil War." }, { "start": 3521.621, "end": 3525.524, "text": "That's what we were messing around with I actually left the company at the Christmas party." }, { "start": 3525.524, "end": 3531.688, "text": "It was my last event in 1992 So I worked there in 91 and 92 on other things." }, { "start": 3531.688, "end": 3534.931, "text": "I think it was mostly the Civil War game. And the problem was that my wife's" }, { "start": 3534.931, "end": 3538.673, "text": "job paid three times what I was making, and she was offered a job in Chicago" }, { "start": 3538.673, "end": 3540.755, "text": "three times what I was making." }, { "start": 3540.755, "end": 3544.658, "text": "And we were struggling a little bit with her not working. I was the lowest paid" }, { "start": 3544.658, "end": 3548.741, "text": "designer in the team at the company, and I kept getting raises," }, { "start": 3548.741, "end": 3551.203, "text": "but they were not catching me up to what the other guys were making." }, { "start": 3551.203, "end": 3553.825, "text": "So people were telling me, you're getting way underpaid, you know," }, { "start": 3553.825, "end": 3557.387, "text": "this is not fair. And going well. So we decided we would go, we would leave." }, { "start": 3557.788, "end": 3560.49, "text": "The Civil War game was not really going to take off, I think," }, { "start": 3560.49, "end": 3562.711, "text": "and so I didn't know what we were going to do next." }, { "start": 3563.032, "end": 3565.313, "text": "The company was struggling a little bit, I think. I don't know," }, { "start": 3565.313, "end": 3567.115, "text": "it wasn't doing great with other projects." }, { "start": 3567.115, "end": 3570.097, "text": "I don't remember the whole thing, but basically it was an economic decision." }, { "start": 3570.097, "end": 3573.72, "text": "We could live on my wife's salary, couldn't live on mine. So we moved," }, { "start": 3573.72, "end": 3575.321, "text": "and I wasn't sure what I was going to do." }, { "start": 3575.321, "end": 3579.945, "text": "I actually was hired by a California book publisher to write strategy guides" }, { "start": 3579.945, "end": 3583.31, "text": "for computer games, because they had written books about civilization," }, { "start": 3583.31, "end": 3585.994, "text": "maybe Railroad Tycoon also, and so I asked them." }, { "start": 3586.628, "end": 3588.619, "text": "Would you be interested in me having these books?\" And they said," }, { "start": 3588.619, "end": 3592.482, "text": "absolutely. You wrote these manuals you can write. So they hired me to write" }, { "start": 3592.482, "end": 3596.665, "text": "books about games. And I actually worked on a strategy guide for the colonization" }, { "start": 3596.665, "end": 3598.766, "text": "game that Brian Reynolds did for Microprose." }, { "start": 3599.227, "end": 3602.309, "text": "So I wrote that strategy guide and three or four others or something." }, { "start": 3603.21, "end": 3605.591, "text": "That's what I did for the next pretty much the next two years." }, { "start": 3605.792, "end": 3611.015, "text": "So you mentioned that you were one of the lowest paid game designers at Microprose." }, { "start": 3611.927, "end": 3614.698, "text": "I wonder, I mean, this might be a bit of a sensitive question," }, { "start": 3614.698, "end": 3618.021, "text": "but you were working with Sid Meier and you had this great working relationship." }, { "start": 3618.461, "end": 3621.544, "text": "I mean, we know that Sid was no longer a partner at Microprose," }, { "start": 3621.544, "end": 3624.126, "text": "but he certainly was someone with clout in the company." }, { "start": 3624.746, "end": 3630.671, "text": "I wonder why didn't he leverage that clout to give his co-designer a great race" }, { "start": 3630.671, "end": 3633.012, "text": "or a bonus or to retain him after all?" }, { "start": 3633.012, "end": 3635.334, "text": "I don't think it ever came up in the conversation," }, { "start": 3635.334, "end": 3637.175, "text": "you know. It wasn't that big a deal." }, { "start": 3637.175, "end": 3639.602, "text": "I mean, I think other guys were making more money. I mean, one guy was telling" }, { "start": 3639.602, "end": 3642.54, "text": "me, You're way underpaid compared with other people are making I know for a" }, { "start": 3642.54, "end": 3646.823, "text": "fact that when I was hired There was another guy they're interviewing and he" }, { "start": 3646.823, "end": 3651.387, "text": "wanted X amount of money and I was hired for significantly less than him And" }, { "start": 3651.387, "end": 3652.668, "text": "then six months later he showed up." }, { "start": 3652.668, "end": 3655.85, "text": "So I figured he must have got what he wanted, right? So right away I thought you know," }, { "start": 3655.85, "end": 3660.534, "text": "hey, maybe he did get that money Why did they pay me like, you know $7,000 less" }, { "start": 3660.534, "end": 3663.827, "text": "or whatever it was even though they kept giving me raises They said you got" }, { "start": 3663.827, "end": 3667.099, "text": "a good raise and I said, yeah But did I catch up to anybody and then I recruited" }, { "start": 3667.099, "end": 3668.581, "text": "a friend of mine to come work?" }, { "start": 3668.581, "end": 3671.643, "text": "And I think they repaid him more than I was making. I was already working on" }, { "start": 3671.643, "end": 3676.026, "text": "these games and they recruited a guy to work in their other game division for" }, { "start": 3676.026, "end": 3678.608, "text": "more than I was making. They had no experience in these games." }, { "start": 3679.249, "end": 3682.291, "text": "It wasn't eating at me or anything like that, but I was happily married and" }, { "start": 3682.291, "end": 3686.034, "text": "my wife was making three times my salary and I didn't know what the future of the company was." }, { "start": 3686.034, "end": 3689.737, "text": "They were struggling in some cases. I mean, the company was sold not too long" }, { "start": 3689.737, "end": 3694.141, "text": "after I left. Within a couple of years, I think it was sold to another company." }, { "start": 3694.141, "end": 3698.224, "text": "So I don't remember much about it. Maybe it was just an adventure to go to a" }, { "start": 3698.224, "end": 3699.785, "text": "new place and start something new." }, { "start": 3700.366, "end": 3703.649, "text": "I worked for two years with something with Sid. We didn't come up with any other" }, { "start": 3703.649, "end": 3707.692, "text": "ideas for a game. It wasn't going to be anything. The Civil War game was eventually published." }, { "start": 3708.483, "end": 3711.966, "text": "He did it with Jeff Briggs, but it didn't have the same feeling of anything" }, { "start": 3711.966, "end": 3714.488, "text": "like what we've done with Civilization, if by any means." }, { "start": 3714.928, "end": 3717.45, "text": "Did you feel appreciated at Microprose?" }, { "start": 3717.741, "end": 3721.883, "text": "I did. What mattered to me was what Sid thought and what my colleagues thought." }, { "start": 3722.274, "end": 3725.796, "text": "The other people, those managers, you know, I was just another cog in the wheel," }, { "start": 3725.796, "end": 3729.379, "text": "you know, and especially whatever I did for Sid was fine, they liked it," }, { "start": 3729.379, "end": 3732.541, "text": "but I wasn't thought of anything special. I will say, when I left," }, { "start": 3732.541, "end": 3735.663, "text": "they had a party for me, which I don't think they ever had for anybody." }, { "start": 3735.663, "end": 3739.626, "text": "They actually had a party and people dressed up and it was really," }, { "start": 3739.626, "end": 3743.149, "text": "really, really nice. They really set me off in style." }, { "start": 3743.689, "end": 3747.912, "text": "So I think I was appreciated. I remember feeling really moved by the fact that" }, { "start": 3747.912, "end": 3751.755, "text": "they actually took time out of their day to have a party, to say goodbye and" }, { "start": 3751.755, "end": 3754.877, "text": "made fun of me and stuff like that. It was really nice." }, { "start": 3754.877, "end": 3759.641, "text": "Do you wish that you would have had the opportunity to work with Sid Meier again?" }, { "start": 3759.641, "end": 3762.983, "text": "At one point I talked about it, because I talked about working with him from" }, { "start": 3762.983, "end": 3766.646, "text": "a distance. I said, look, I'm going to be in Chicago, in the Chicago area," }, { "start": 3766.646, "end": 3767.726, "text": "I could work with you remotely." }, { "start": 3768.467, "end": 3772.049, "text": "And he said, no, I don't think it works the same. He just wasn't interested" }, { "start": 3772.049, "end": 3774.551, "text": "in it. So I look for something else to do." }, { "start": 3774.551, "end": 3779.074, "text": "Okay. So that concluded your time at Microprose." }, { "start": 3779.494, "end": 3783.837, "text": "And I mean, from the perspective of a gamer, I would say that's a good thing," }, { "start": 3783.837, "end": 3787.7, "text": "because ultimately that led to you working on Age of Empires," }, { "start": 3787.7, "end": 3789.821, "text": "which obviously became another classic." }, { "start": 3790.462, "end": 3795.605, "text": "But that's a story for another day. So Bruce, Thank you so much for joining" }, { "start": 3795.605, "end": 3800.588, "text": "me and for giving us so much insight into the development of Civilization and" }, { "start": 3800.588, "end": 3802.529, "text": "your role in it. Thank you." }, { "start": 3802.529, "end": 3806.172, "text": "You're welcome, Chris. Like I tell you, it was a dream to work on that project." }, { "start": 3806.172, "end": 3807.432, "text": "It was a great experience." }, { "start": 3807.853, "end": 3811.415, "text": "It opened up doors for my future, and I learned so much." }, { "start": 3811.755, "end": 3819.82, "text": "I'm always grateful for the opportunity to work with Microprose and especially work with Sid." }, { "start": 3819.82, "end": 3823.623, "text": "It's great. Thank you very much Bruce Shelley, that was a very pleasant conversation" }, { "start": 3823.623, "end": 3827.966, "text": "and now I will briefly summarize for you what we talked about and what he told us." }, { "start": 3827.966, "end": 3833.55, "text": "I asked him at the beginning what he is actually more often asked about," }, { "start": 3833.55, "end": 3835.931, "text": "about Civilization or Age of Empires." }, { "start": 3837.192, "end": 3841.995, "text": "And he said, and that also sets the focus for the further conversation a bit," }, { "start": 3841.995, "end": 3846.899, "text": "Age of Empires was the game where he was deeply involved, was a really solid" }, { "start": 3846.899, "end": 3851.442, "text": "part of the design team and he also says in advance that Civilization is the" }, { "start": 3851.442, "end": 3854.283, "text": "game of Sid Meier and he only worked with him." }, { "start": 3855.692, "end": 3860.254, "text": "Okay, but let's go into the background. How did Bruce Shelly come to Microprose?" }, { "start": 3861.095, "end": 3864.758, "text": "Bruce Shelly was just under 40 when he started at Microprose." }, { "start": 3864.758, "end": 3870.282, "text": "That means he had already done a lot before. He had already seen a lot of things and studied a lot." }, { "start": 3870.282, "end": 3874.164, "text": "He first studied biology and environmental science at the University of Virginia." }, { "start": 3874.164, "end": 3882.01, "text": "He then worked in that area and then went back to university, this time at BWL." }, { "start": 3882.951, "end": 3885.773, "text": "Tried to figure out what he wanted to do in his life." }, { "start": 3886.934, "end": 3891.257, "text": "During this time at the University of Virginia, there was a game club." }, { "start": 3891.257, "end": 3896.341, "text": "A game club not in the sense of computer games, but that were board and pen and paper games." }, { "start": 3896.341, "end": 3901.985, "text": "And with a group of members from this club, he then started a small publisher for pen and paper RPGs." }, { "start": 3901.985, "end": 3907.629, "text": "That was, as he said, not his genre at all. He preferred the complex tabletop" }, { "start": 3907.629, "end": 3913.113, "text": "war games, But for him it was an entry card into the gaming industry." }, { "start": 3913.113, "end": 3916.956, "text": "So again, the gaming industry in the sense of board games, physical games." }, { "start": 3917.136, "end": 3921.239, "text": "And he wanted to take advantage of the opportunity, especially because he came" }, { "start": 3921.239, "end": 3924.981, "text": "into contact with manufacturers through his commitment to this small company." }, { "start": 3924.981, "end": 3931.586, "text": "And so he got an internship at a company called Simulations Publications Incorporated," }, { "start": 3931.586, "end": 3937.31, "text": "a provider of strategy games, especially from a monthly magazine called Strategy" }, { "start": 3937.31, "end": 3940.572, "text": "& Tactics Magazine, wherever the rules for a whole game were contained." }, { "start": 3940.572, "end": 3945.526, "text": "There he was only there for a summer, then he realized that the company was" }, { "start": 3945.526, "end": 3948.945, "text": "not doing so well, then wrote applications at this time and with the qualification" }, { "start": 3948.945, "end": 3952.701, "text": "of this internship he was one of the really big ones in the industry," }, { "start": 3952.701, "end": 3954.862, "text": "namely at Avalon Hill in Baltimore, Maryland." }, { "start": 3956.203, "end": 3957.644, "text": "He is 34 at this time." }, { "start": 3959.125, "end": 3966.31, "text": "Avalon Hill is the market leader in the USA for serious strategy games," }, { "start": 3966.31, "end": 3969.292, "text": "war games, the tabletops. A pioneer in this area." }, { "start": 3971.454, "end": 3976.677, "text": "Many historical scenarios, often World War II. Bruce told that he came into" }, { "start": 3976.677, "end": 3982.621, "text": "contact with these games when he was on vacation with his family as a teenager on the beach." }, { "start": 3982.621, "end": 3989.526, "text": "And on a rainy day, they discovered a first world war strategy game in a local shop by Avalon Hill." }, { "start": 3989.846, "end": 3994.289, "text": "And he sank in there. That was very small-scale, complicated rules," }, { "start": 3994.289, "end": 3998.472, "text": "but it was like, he said, like if the map from a history book and it is also" }, { "start": 3998.472, "end": 4001.054, "text": "very instructive to play something like that." }, { "start": 4001.054, "end": 4005.958, "text": "Well, as I said, he comes to Avalon Hill, where he is hired to work through" }, { "start": 4005.958, "end": 4010.061, "text": "the catalog of another company that Avalon Hill had just bought," }, { "start": 4010.061, "end": 4016.726, "text": "Victory Games, and to decide which games should be re-released and to make adjustments" }, { "start": 4016.726, "end": 4021.61, "text": "there and then also for other games that will be brought to Avalon Hill at this" }, { "start": 4021.61, "end": 4023.776, "text": "time. We're in the mid-80s here." }, { "start": 4024.239, "end": 4026.685, "text": "An example he mentioned was a game called Titan." }, { "start": 4027.669, "end": 4031.522, "text": "It comes from a small local manufacturer, who had already released the main" }, { "start": 4031.522, "end": 4038.346, "text": "game on an add-on. It's a kind of chess with fantasy creatures on a hexagonal playing field." }, { "start": 4038.726, "end": 4043.169, "text": "Then Avalon Hill took over and his job was to combine this game with the add-on," }, { "start": 4043.169, "end": 4047.912, "text": "refine the rules and ultimately make it ready for publication for Avalon Hill." }, { "start": 4047.912, "end": 4050.994, "text": "So he was very busy with rules adjustments, equipment and so on." }, { "start": 4050.994, "end": 4055.897, "text": "It didn't really occur to me like the work of a game designer," }, { "start": 4055.897, "end": 4058.859, "text": "but rather like that of a product manager." }, { "start": 4058.939, "end": 4066.465, "text": "And he said, his title was Developer, so Entwickler, which he hardly did at Avalon Hill." }, { "start": 4066.465, "end": 4071.149, "text": "Not not, but hardly was he able to come up with his own games." }, { "start": 4071.149, "end": 4075.952, "text": "So even if we later know Bruce Shelley as someone who works as a designer in" }, { "start": 4075.952, "end": 4080.336, "text": "the gaming industry, That may be the wrong picture of what he did." }, { "start": 4080.456, "end": 4084.639, "text": "Not only with Avalon Hill, but also with Michael Broster, we'll get to that in a moment." }, { "start": 4084.88, "end": 4089.963, "text": "The most famous thing he worked on with Avalon Hill is the game 1830," }, { "start": 4089.963, "end": 4094.345, "text": "an railway game from England by Francis Tresham." }, { "start": 4094.786, "end": 4099.949, "text": "He had already published railway games in England and Avalon Hill bought the" }, { "start": 4099.949, "end": 4101.651, "text": "rights to publish them in America." }, { "start": 4101.651, "end": 4107.795, "text": "Bruce Shelley, the liaison in America, had a phone call with Francis Tresham about the Atlantic." }, { "start": 4107.795, "end": 4114.559, "text": "So Tresham came up with an American version of his game, the 1830." }, { "start": 4114.559, "end": 4120.845, "text": "And in the interplay between the two, Shelley adapted and prepared it for the US market." }, { "start": 4120.845, "end": 4124.809, "text": "For example, the game was too difficult for him. One of the problems that bothered" }, { "start": 4124.809, "end": 4132.035, "text": "them was that in the original version of Tresham you could only build one railway line after the other." }, { "start": 4133.529, "end": 4137.272, "text": "And the adjustment he made, for example, was that from the beginning," }, { "start": 4137.272, "end": 4141.014, "text": "all railway lines are available in the big USA and you can choose which one" }, { "start": 4141.014, "end": 4145.057, "text": "you want to build, which makes the game more open and flexible." }, { "start": 4145.418, "end": 4150.161, "text": "From this 1830, which was a super popular game for the conditions of Avalon" }, { "start": 4150.161, "end": 4156.125, "text": "Hill, a whole series has been made, which is still running today." }, { "start": 4156.125, "end": 4160.608, "text": "After four or five years, he shifts his focus to the computer games division" }, { "start": 4160.608, "end": 4165.572, "text": "of Avalon Hill, because for a long time now DS has been a publisher of computer games." }, { "start": 4165.572, "end": 4170.095, "text": "Avalon Hill publishes both external games as well as licensed or set games," }, { "start": 4170.095, "end": 4173.057, "text": "their own board games, as digital versions." }, { "start": 4173.617, "end": 4177.299, "text": "Bruce Shelley is not particularly enthusiastic about this. On the one hand," }, { "start": 4177.299, "end": 4180.341, "text": "Avalon Hill does not put a lot of effort into the development of computer games." }, { "start": 4180.341, "end": 4182.563, "text": "Most of the time they buy programs from some external people," }, { "start": 4182.563, "end": 4184.784, "text": "which were mostly simply tailored." }, { "start": 4185.485, "end": 4191.008, "text": "Avalon Hill has been around since the late 70s, early 80s, and there is not" }, { "start": 4191.008, "end": 4193.47, "text": "so much competition yet, but the more professional this market becomes," }, { "start": 4193.47, "end": 4195.752, "text": "the more they hit the back." }, { "start": 4195.752, "end": 4198.414, "text": "Shelly remembers, for example, a game that Avalon Hill brought out," }, { "start": 4198.414, "end": 4203.378, "text": "called NBA, a basketball game with the official license of the NBA at the time, i.e." }, { "start": 4203.378, "end": 4207.741, "text": "The American League, and Shelly makes the quality assurance for it," }, { "start": 4207.741, "end": 4211.304, "text": "so he notices, for example, that all the statistics The characteristics of the players, i.e." }, { "start": 4211.304, "end": 4216.067, "text": "The original NBA players of this era, do not at all match the strengths of the" }, { "start": 4216.067, "end": 4219.15, "text": "players. Shelly is a passionate basketball player. That will play a role in" }, { "start": 4219.15, "end": 4223.872, "text": "the story. He knows his way around that. And he finds it pretty ridiculous how that is implemented." }, { "start": 4225.414, "end": 4229.357, "text": "So he wasn't particularly enthusiastic about what Avalon Hilda did." }, { "start": 4229.357, "end": 4233.279, "text": "But what he is enthusiastic about is another player he met at this time." }, { "start": 4233.279, "end": 4236.021, "text": "A friend recommends him to play Pirates." }, { "start": 4237.042, "end": 4239.824, "text": "The game by Sid Meier, by Microprose, which was released in 1987." }, { "start": 4239.824, "end": 4244.907, "text": "And Shelley is impressed by that. And he also knows that Microprose is based" }, { "start": 4244.907, "end": 4247.389, "text": "in the same city, in Baltimore, in the north of the city." }, { "start": 4247.389, "end": 4252.252, "text": "Now, Bruce Shelley is not a computer-savvy person at this point." }, { "start": 4252.252, "end": 4256.385, "text": "He was never a programmer, and will never be a programmer. He is someone who" }, { "start": 4256.385, "end": 4260.758, "text": "is engaged in design. But he thinks, okay, how could I get a foot in the door?" }, { "start": 4260.758, "end": 4263.621, "text": "That seems to be the future for me with these computer games." }, { "start": 4264.422, "end": 4269.765, "text": "And with his methods he then simply tried to develop a computer game-like project." }, { "start": 4269.765, "end": 4276.57, "text": "As I said, he can't program, but he designs a solo war game for Avalon Hill. A solo strategy game." }, { "start": 4277.21, "end": 4281.213, "text": "Patterns Best is what it's called. It came out in 1987 and it's a war game that" }, { "start": 4281.213, "end": 4283.975, "text": "you can play alone. As a single player." }, { "start": 4284.575, "end": 4288.157, "text": "It looks like the other Avalon Hill war game with lots of markers and thick" }, { "start": 4288.157, "end": 4292.1, "text": "rules and stuff. But he describes it as a finger exercise for computer games," }, { "start": 4292.1, "end": 4296.162, "text": "because he says that most computer games of today are single-player games." }, { "start": 4296.744, "end": 4301.427, "text": "Well, it takes a while for Bruce to get into the door at Microprose & Foose." }, { "start": 4301.427, "end": 4305.25, "text": "He remembers that he tried to be a model for almost a year and to convince them" }, { "start": 4305.25, "end": 4307.812, "text": "that they need someone who can really make games." }, { "start": 4307.812, "end": 4312.816, "text": "Well, I can't program, but I know how game rules work. And finally it comes" }, { "start": 4312.816, "end": 4315.918, "text": "to the point that he is actually hired, but at a fairly low salary." }, { "start": 4315.918, "end": 4317.238, "text": "So, now we're at Microprose." }, { "start": 4319.061, "end": 4324.064, "text": "As I said, he's almost 40 now, Bruce Shelley. and we are in 1988 when he started" }, { "start": 4324.064, "end": 4329.669, "text": "there as a pure designer, because, as I said, he does not have any programming knowledge." }, { "start": 4330.71, "end": 4335.193, "text": "This is unusual for Microprose at the time, but not unique. In the office next" }, { "start": 4335.193, "end": 4337.315, "text": "to him, for example, is Lawrence Schick." }, { "start": 4337.715, "end": 4341.458, "text": "This is a name that is also known in the gaming industry. He comes from TSR," }, { "start": 4341.458, "end": 4345.441, "text": "the makers of Dungeons & Dragons, and was then briefly at Coleco," }, { "start": 4345.441, "end": 4347.943, "text": "the makers of ColecoVision, a separate console." }, { "start": 4348.484, "end": 4352.126, "text": "He worked for Microprose for many years as a designer and producer." }, { "start": 4352.126, "end": 4354.168, "text": "Later he switched to Bethesda." }, { "start": 4354.969, "end": 4358.231, "text": "But he is also someone who does not come from the background of programming." }, { "start": 4358.412, "end": 4360.112, "text": "What is Bruce Shelley doing at Microprose?" }, { "start": 4360.533, "end": 4365.497, "text": "He works as the first project on F-19 Stealth Fighter, a flight simulation," }, { "start": 4365.497, "end": 4368.779, "text": "and makes 3D models and the map." }, { "start": 4369.1, "end": 4374.064, "text": "So he builds the plane models in the editor polygon and on the map," }, { "start": 4374.064, "end": 4378.026, "text": "where an air defense station should be and where an airfield should be, and so on." }, { "start": 4379.488, "end": 4382.91, "text": "This is an unusual task for someone who is hired as a designer." }, { "start": 4383.31, "end": 4388.254, "text": "Sure, we're not yet in the era where 3D graphics have a role of their own," }, { "start": 4388.254, "end": 4392.256, "text": "3D modellers or something, but shouldn't he be making games now?" }, { "start": 4393.017, "end": 4396.68, "text": "And I looked at the other interviews and sources in advance," }, { "start": 4396.68, "end": 4400.062, "text": "what he did with the Microprose Debut Chalet, and it seemed to me that it was" }, { "start": 4400.062, "end": 4403.445, "text": "pretty wide-ranging. So sometimes it was research, sometimes documentation," }, { "start": 4403.445, "end": 4406.928, "text": "he wrote manuals, did budget analysis, assisted Sid Meier." }, { "start": 4407.328, "end": 4411.351, "text": "These are all additional tasks. Does he have his own projects?" }, { "start": 4411.351, "end": 4413.052, "text": "Does he do something himself with Microprose?" }, { "start": 4413.433, "end": 4419.858, "text": "And his answer to that is not really. In the four years he's been at the company," }, { "start": 4419.858, "end": 4422.08, "text": "he works more as a producer than as a designer." }, { "start": 4422.32, "end": 4425.963, "text": "He then added, for example, in the recruitment, he has an externally developed" }, { "start": 4425.963, "end": 4428.226, "text": "game called Destroyer Escort, he has taken care of it as a producer." }, { "start": 4428.226, "end": 4433.212, "text": "He did the briefings for sales teams when games had to be presented." }, { "start": 4433.212, "end": 4437.277, "text": "He worked with the layouters of the manuals to create the manuals." }, { "start": 4437.277, "end": 4441.062, "text": "He took care of the quality assurance, initiated game tests," }, { "start": 4441.062, "end": 4444.306, "text": "maintained the bug lists. All kinds of things." }, { "start": 4445.624, "end": 4449.827, "text": "But that's because of the work with Sid Meier," }, { "start": 4449.827, "end": 4453.55, "text": "and you have to say that he's never understaffed," }, { "start": 4453.55, "end": 4457.653, "text": "but works in the developer team of Microprose," }, { "start": 4457.653, "end": 4462.777, "text": "which is called MPS Labs, and there's a boss, a head of it, that's first Steve" }, { "start": 4462.777, "end": 4466.3, "text": "Meier and then later, also at the time of Civilization, Ted Markley," }, { "start": 4466.3, "end": 4469.402, "text": "and those are the executives of Bruce Shelley, not Sid Meier." }, { "start": 4470.223, "end": 4475.907, "text": "What we're always interested in is, what did the office look like back then" }, { "start": 4475.907, "end": 4480.271, "text": "at Microprose? He guided us through mentally. He had about 100 people at the end of the 80s." }, { "start": 4480.431, "end": 4484.414, "text": "Bruce says, of course, with hierarchies, departments, the department heads and so on." }, { "start": 4484.414, "end": 4488.877, "text": "And that was in Hunt Valley, on the outskirts of Baltimore, a long," }, { "start": 4488.877, "end": 4489.978, "text": "flat, one-story building." }, { "start": 4489.978, "end": 4494.221, "text": "At the beginning, the entrance area with a large conference room." }, { "start": 4494.221, "end": 4498.704, "text": "And then it was divided into two wings. On the left, the management and all" }, { "start": 4498.704, "end": 4500.226, "text": "the marketing sales departments." }, { "start": 4501.167, "end": 4505.77, "text": "A warehouse is also part of it, where all the products, packages and so on are" }, { "start": 4505.77, "end": 4507.091, "text": "stored and ready for shipping." }, { "start": 4507.111, "end": 4511.234, "text": "And the whole right wing, the development department. The first office there" }, { "start": 4511.234, "end": 4514.096, "text": "on the right side, a very large office, that of Sid Meier." }, { "start": 4514.096, "end": 4518.96, "text": "Then a corridor around such an inner courtyard and there are individual offices" }, { "start": 4518.96, "end": 4522.843, "text": "lined up. So no large offices. Bruce has a single office in the back corner." }, { "start": 4522.843, "end": 4526.766, "text": "Next to it, as I said, Lawrence Schick sits opposite him." }, { "start": 4527.147, "end": 4531.01, "text": "Offices of two programmers and so all the disciplines in the development department" }, { "start": 4531.01, "end": 4533.472, "text": "mix up. Offices for graphic designers, offices for programmers," }, { "start": 4533.472, "end": 4535.033, "text": "offices for designers and so on." }, { "start": 4535.822, "end": 4538.764, "text": "Sid Meier meets Bruce Shelley because they work on the same project." }, { "start": 4539.085, "end": 4543.608, "text": "This F-19 Stealth Fighter is a project on which Sid Meier is the chief designer." }, { "start": 4544.769, "end": 4549.932, "text": "Logically, they meet in meetings and talk. Bruce describes Sid Meier as a quiet" }, { "start": 4549.932, "end": 4553.675, "text": "person, a distanced person, who needs a while before he disappears." }, { "start": 4553.995, "end": 4555.757, "text": "But the two get along quite well." }, { "start": 4556.317, "end": 4559.159, "text": "Bruce has described three reasons for this." }, { "start": 4559.159, "end": 4563.342, "text": "On the one hand, they have common interests. Both are very interested in history," }, { "start": 4563.342, "end": 4566.525, "text": "both read a lot, but above all they are very interested in game design," }, { "start": 4566.525, "end": 4571.308, "text": "in the craftsmanship of game design, and they quickly get into the technical aspects of it." }, { "start": 4571.308, "end": 4575.831, "text": "Then there are joint board game nights, where Bruce brings games," }, { "start": 4575.831, "end": 4580.194, "text": "for example his 1830 or the Civilization board game by Avalon Hill," }, { "start": 4580.194, "end": 4585.158, "text": "which already exists at the time, by the way also by Francis Thresham from England." }, { "start": 4585.959, "end": 4588.56, "text": "Sid Meier also takes part in that, he welds them closer together," }, { "start": 4588.56, "end": 4592.543, "text": "and then Bruce says he was also just ready to take on tasks from other people" }, { "start": 4592.543, "end": 4596.826, "text": "that they didn't want to do. And he does that with Sid. He is ready to do things" }, { "start": 4596.826, "end": 4599.188, "text": "for Sid that he doesn't want to do." }, { "start": 4599.629, "end": 4602.871, "text": "That's how it comes that Sid asks him at some point if he wants to assist him" }, { "start": 4602.871, "end": 4604.772, "text": "in his next game. That's Railroad Tycoon." }, { "start": 4605.233, "end": 4610.496, "text": "This is an era where Bruce says he was enthusiastic about this possibility." }, { "start": 4611.037, "end": 4615.4, "text": "He loves the job. He thinks the games are great. He thinks the work with Sid" }, { "start": 4615.4, "end": 4617.581, "text": "Meier, who he thinks is a genius, is great." }, { "start": 4617.901, "end": 4620.804, "text": "He is also in love with his future wife. It's going well for him." }, { "start": 4620.804, "end": 4624.496, "text": "He says he would have worked for free at that time." }, { "start": 4625.187, "end": 4630.07, "text": "And Sid and he get along great. They do research trips together to the railway" }, { "start": 4630.07, "end": 4632.432, "text": "museum, for example, go to lunch together." }, { "start": 4633.013, "end": 4637.116, "text": "Later, when Bruce gets married, Sid is there too. The two of them get along." }, { "start": 4637.116, "end": 4642.6, "text": "One day they are eating at a steakhouse and actually Sid Meier has to work on" }, { "start": 4642.6, "end": 4644.551, "text": "an agent game called Covert Action." }, { "start": 4645.061, "end": 4649.004, "text": "But he would much rather do this railway game he was working on and then obviously" }, { "start": 4649.004, "end": 4652.007, "text": "asks Bruce what he thinks about it. And Bruce says, yes, of course," }, { "start": 4652.007, "end": 4654.548, "text": "the railway. What to stop?" }, { "start": 4655.069, "end": 4657.951, "text": "Railroad Tycoon is created. This is the first game where they cooperate." }, { "start": 4658.531, "end": 4663.135, "text": "Then comes Covert Action, where they also work together. But that's not a love" }, { "start": 4663.135, "end": 4664.455, "text": "project for either of them." }, { "start": 4664.576, "end": 4666.817, "text": "They have to do that because the boss wants it." }, { "start": 4667.278, "end": 4672.021, "text": "Bruce said that all the suggestions he made to make the game better were usually" }, { "start": 4672.021, "end": 4674.462, "text": "rejected by Sid. with the hint that the game just has to be finished." }, { "start": 4674.462, "end": 4678.963, "text": "It doesn't necessarily have to get better, it just has to come to an end." }, { "start": 4678.963, "end": 4681.023, "text": "Because they want to make Civilization." }, { "start": 4681.944, "end": 4686.565, "text": "We talked a little bit about this head office. The head office is called Bill" }, { "start": 4686.565, "end": 4690.446, "text": "Steele. Bill Steele is the co-founder of Microprose and the co-owner." }, { "start": 4690.866, "end": 4695.867, "text": "He and Sid Meier own the company for 50% and Steele is the manager." }, { "start": 4695.867, "end": 4700.188, "text": "So the one who makes the management announcements in the daily business." }, { "start": 4700.479, "end": 4707.664, "text": "And he's a character, let's say, a former Air Force pilot, a very extroverted, loud person." }, { "start": 4708.726, "end": 4714.61, "text": "And Bruce remembers that leadership went to Michael Bros. because they couldn't deal with Steely." }, { "start": 4715.07, "end": 4718.292, "text": "Steve Meier, for example, his first boss, that's how it was with him." }, { "start": 4719.033, "end": 4722.836, "text": "And there's a very nice anecdote he told, and that kind of adds up to this account" }, { "start": 4722.836, "end": 4726.138, "text": "that Steely must have been a difficult person." }, { "start": 4727.019, "end": 4730.642, "text": "And although that sometimes led to tensions in the company." }, { "start": 4731.182, "end": 4734.745, "text": "Because I said before, Bruce Shelley is a passionate basketball player." }, { "start": 4734.745, "end": 4736.867, "text": "At the time he plays several times a week." }, { "start": 4737.527, "end": 4741.711, "text": "He is also a big man, just under 1.90 m. And then he finds out that basketball" }, { "start": 4741.711, "end": 4744.453, "text": "is also played at Microprose. In the warehouse, in the company's own warehouse," }, { "start": 4744.453, "end": 4747.895, "text": "there is also a small basketball court and people play there regularly." }, { "start": 4748.656, "end": 4751.839, "text": "Not necessarily from the development department of the nerds," }, { "start": 4752.059, "end": 4755.341, "text": "but rather from the other departments, and above all the managers," }, { "start": 4755.341, "end": 4758.944, "text": "the leaders of the basketball team. And because Bruce participates," }, { "start": 4758.944, "end": 4760.045, "text": "he gets to know the managers." }, { "start": 4760.425, "end": 4763.808, "text": "The other designers in the development department are always wondering why he" }, { "start": 4763.808, "end": 4767.551, "text": "is greeted by the marketing people. Hey Bruce, how are you?" }, { "start": 4767.871, "end": 4772.694, "text": "How do you know them? But that brings this sport together. And who also plays" }, { "start": 4772.694, "end": 4775.496, "text": "with this basketball team is Bill Steele, the manager." }, { "start": 4776.457, "end": 4780.32, "text": "Bruce remembers that he played hard. He was an aggressive player." }, { "start": 4780.7, "end": 4784.863, "text": "But Bruce is against it and in one situation they both chased the ball and in" }, { "start": 4784.863, "end": 4786.244, "text": "the process he knocked out Steely." }, { "start": 4786.584, "end": 4792.788, "text": "Not on purpose, but with a hard game." }, { "start": 4792.788, "end": 4795.49, "text": "And when Steely is lying on the floor and obviously running for his life," }, { "start": 4795.49, "end": 4801.193, "text": "Bruce Shelley thinks, now I'm out of a job, I just almost knocked out the manager," }, { "start": 4801.193, "end": 4803.275, "text": "but Steely gets up again and the game continues." }, { "start": 4803.275, "end": 4808.298, "text": "And after the game, when Bruce goes to take a shower and the other managers" }, { "start": 4808.298, "end": 4811.94, "text": "of Microprose too, they all clap for him and congratulate him." }, { "start": 4811.94, "end": 4817.584, "text": "He did that very well. So everyone seems to have been happy that someone beat up Bill Steele." }, { "start": 4818.505, "end": 4822.707, "text": "Bruce says, however, that he believes that Bill Steele and Sid Meier," }, { "start": 4822.707, "end": 4824.929, "text": "as far as he has heard, got along well." }, { "start": 4824.929, "end": 4829.611, "text": "At least he never experienced any animosities between the two." }, { "start": 4829.611, "end": 4833.414, "text": "But he already had the impression that Bill Steele rather indulges Sid Meier," }, { "start": 4833.414, "end": 4839.798, "text": "because he makes lucrative games, but for the businessman Bill Steele," }, { "start": 4839.798, "end": 4841.238, "text": "Sid Meier is rather unpredictable." }, { "start": 4841.539, "end": 4847.464, "text": "He wants to do his own thing and he can only hope that the genius Sid Meier will write another hit." }, { "start": 4847.464, "end": 4853.648, "text": "So we are at Civilization, actually one of those games that starts as a Sid" }, { "start": 4853.648, "end": 4858.092, "text": "Meier marauder. By the way, Sid Meier is no longer a partner of the company," }, { "start": 4858.092, "end": 4862.155, "text": "Bill Steele bought his shares from him, but no one knows that at this point in time." }, { "start": 4862.695, "end": 4869.6, "text": "So Sid Meier then works on Civilization and again takes the same division of labor as with..." }, { "start": 4870.511, "end": 4877.017, "text": "Because it already worked out well, with Bruce Shelley as his assistant, so to speak." }, { "start": 4877.017, "end": 4882.381, "text": "How did the idea for Civilization come about? The railway anecdote that Sid" }, { "start": 4882.381, "end": 4883.642, "text": "Meier likes to tell about," }, { "start": 4883.642, "end": 4888.526, "text": "that he got the idea in a train, we now have to make a game about world history," }, { "start": 4888.526, "end": 4892.929, "text": "Bruce Shelley can't remember it, but he says that the influences that have had" }, { "start": 4892.929, "end": 4897.813, "text": "an impact on him at that time, other games in particular, They all went in this direction." }, { "start": 4897.813, "end": 4902.696, "text": "That's the board game Civilization by Avalon Hill, SimCity at the time," }, { "start": 4902.696, "end": 4906.079, "text": "Empire, a war game that also has such a world-encompassing dimension." }, { "start": 4906.079, "end": 4910.321, "text": "All of this would have been more or less appropriate to lead to Civilization," }, { "start": 4910.321, "end": 4914.564, "text": "to this idea, and Sid Meier always built such small prototypes at the time." }, { "start": 4914.564, "end": 4920.248, "text": "The Russian teacher remembers a prototype where you were on the road in bloodstream from a human body," }, { "start": 4920.248, "end": 4925.131, "text": "another prototype where a family inhabited the American West," }, { "start": 4925.131, "end": 4930.976, "text": "and has children and then a seemingly generation-long settlement game comes" }, { "start": 4930.976, "end": 4933.117, "text": "out of it. All just finger exercises." }, { "start": 4934.799, "end": 4939.041, "text": "And in May 1990, Sid Meier gives Bruce Shelley a floppy disk in his hand." }, { "start": 4939.522, "end": 4941.683, "text": "And on it is a prototype of Civilization." }, { "start": 4942.605, "end": 4948.368, "text": "Still far away from what the game will become. Here still more in the city and in real time and so on." }, { "start": 4948.368, "end": 4952.611, "text": "But with that the idea is in the world and Bruce Shelley thinks it's great." }, { "start": 4952.611, "end": 4957.575, "text": "So he is directly convinced that there is a lot of potential in the game." }, { "start": 4957.575, "end": 4960.257, "text": "By the way, he picked up this floppy disk, which was important to him to tell," }, { "start": 4960.257, "end": 4963.96, "text": "because he didn't pick up the first prototype of Railroad Tycoon at the time," }, { "start": 4963.96, "end": 4966.602, "text": "and he didn't want to make this mistake again with Sif." }, { "start": 4966.602, "end": 4970.825, "text": "And he told me that later he wanted to donate it to a museum," }, { "start": 4970.825, "end": 4977.13, "text": "probably the Strong Museum of Play in the USA, but then asked Sid Meier if it" }, { "start": 4977.13, "end": 4979.471, "text": "was okay for him to give it to him." }, { "start": 4979.571, "end": 4983.874, "text": "And Sid then said, I'd rather send it back to me." }, { "start": 4984.875, "end": 4988.158, "text": "And so it went to Firaxis, Sid Meier's company today." }, { "start": 4989.059, "end": 4994.002, "text": "And there it was then successful for Sid Meier's team to produce this version" }, { "start": 4994.002, "end": 4998.706, "text": "again, so that this original version of the first prototype of Civilization" }, { "start": 4998.706, "end": 5001.708, "text": "obviously exists today." }, { "start": 5001.708, "end": 5006.311, "text": "In any case, Bruce Shelley describes the collaboration between Sid Meier and him" }, { "start": 5006.371, "end": 5010.276, "text": "With Civilization, which was again as similar as with Railroad Tycoon," }, { "start": 5010.276, "end": 5016.302, "text": "Fitt Meier makes the game, programs it, designs it and every day he gives Bruce" }, { "start": 5016.302, "end": 5018.304, "text": "Shelley the latest version in the evening." }, { "start": 5019.194, "end": 5024.358, "text": "He plays it, and the next morning, when Sid Meier comes in, the two of them" }, { "start": 5024.358, "end": 5027.54, "text": "sit together in his office and discuss the game experience." }, { "start": 5027.86, "end": 5031.643, "text": "What could be improved, what worked, what didn't." }, { "start": 5032.164, "end": 5036.347, "text": "Then Sid Meier starts programming for the rest of the day, the next version" }, { "start": 5036.347, "end": 5038.528, "text": "is finished in the evening, and the game starts from scratch." }, { "start": 5038.528, "end": 5042.88, "text": "So it's a constant cycle of prototype, assessment, prototype," }, { "start": 5042.88, "end": 5045.313, "text": "assessment between the two of them." }, { "start": 5046.094, "end": 5050.224, "text": "First of all, only between the two of them. For a long time," }, { "start": 5050.224, "end": 5054.34, "text": "Sid Meier has kept the game secret otherwise." }, { "start": 5054.34, "end": 5058.864, "text": "Why Bruce, on the one hand, because they have already worked well together at" }, { "start": 5058.864, "end": 5066.65, "text": "Relative Coon, on the other hand, Bruce thinks that Sid Meier has seen a kind of every man in him." }, { "start": 5066.65, "end": 5072.134, "text": "So someone who is close to the target group, who can reflect well what the target group wants." }, { "start": 5073.115, "end": 5076.616, "text": "And if Bruce Shelley says, I think that's good, and I think that's less good" }, { "start": 5076.616, "end": 5080.578, "text": "that Sid Meier would have accepted it, then most people out there will feel the same way." }, { "start": 5080.678, "end": 5085.7, "text": "I was a bit skeptical about Bruce Shelley putting his light under the shuffle." }, { "start": 5086.921, "end": 5090.263, "text": "Prompt, good feedback, high-quality feedback is super relevant," }, { "start": 5090.263, "end": 5094.945, "text": "but the point is here at this point, that was already clear in the conversation." }, { "start": 5095.405, "end": 5098.786, "text": "Bruce didn't design the game, he didn't co-design it in this sense," }, { "start": 5098.786, "end": 5104.829, "text": "but he was involved in this feedback cycle, where Sid Meier does the things" }, { "start": 5104.829, "end": 5107.29, "text": "and Bruce Shelley then judges them and gives feedback." }, { "start": 5109.273, "end": 5113.736, "text": "But that's a job that Bruce Shelly enjoys. He really enjoys it." }, { "start": 5113.736, "end": 5118.429, "text": "He finds the fascinating design work, the two works out, what are fun decisions," }, { "start": 5118.429, "end": 5122.322, "text": "what works in this constant play, test, play, test process." }, { "start": 5122.322, "end": 5126.704, "text": "And he told me that later, when the two of them made it more open," }, { "start": 5126.704, "end": 5131.347, "text": "so as well the rest of the company noticed that, the colleague who was sitting" }, { "start": 5131.347, "end": 5133.849, "text": "next to him in the office," }, { "start": 5133.849, "end": 5138.252, "text": "and Sid Meier, so over the course of the game, that I told him later that if" }, { "start": 5138.252, "end": 5141.975, "text": "you and Sid sit together and talk about Civilization, then I can't work anymore." }, { "start": 5141.975, "end": 5145.778, "text": "Then I either have to close my door or I have to listen to you," }, { "start": 5145.778, "end": 5147.899, "text": "because what you are discussing is so exciting ." }, { "start": 5148.88, "end": 5153.383, "text": "Incidentally, it is quite interesting, because Bruce Shelley said that as long" }, { "start": 5153.383, "end": 5156.946, "text": "as it is only between the two of them, that he was the only one who gave feedback" }, { "start": 5156.946, "end": 5160.008, "text": "to the game, he does not he didn't like it that much in retrospect." }, { "start": 5161.269, "end": 5166.283, "text": "Because the fact that only he saw it over a long period of time meant that there" }, { "start": 5166.283, "end": 5169.135, "text": "was no time to test the game for other people." }, { "start": 5169.135, "end": 5174.279, "text": "And he pushed the fact that there were mistakes or not-so-cheap decisions in" }, { "start": 5174.279, "end": 5179.583, "text": "the first Civilization, including the fact that only one person saw and judged" }, { "start": 5179.583, "end": 5181.925, "text": "it over a long period of time." }, { "start": 5181.925, "end": 5187.989, "text": "And that's an insight that he took with him for the next big project he worked" }, { "start": 5187.989, "end": 5190.431, "text": "on, Age of Empires, at Ensemble Studios." }, { "start": 5191.752, "end": 5197.719, "text": "And that one important point at Ensemble was that the whole company and also" }, { "start": 5197.719, "end": 5201.543, "text": "external people start playing and testing their game pretty early," }, { "start": 5201.543, "end": 5205.167, "text": "so that you get broad feedback instead of sharp feedback." }, { "start": 5206.408, "end": 5210.732, "text": "Now, as Civilization is also shared in the company, it proves to be super popular," }, { "start": 5210.732, "end": 5214.336, "text": "everyone loves it and that's actually a pretty good omen." }, { "start": 5214.605, "end": 5218.298, "text": "The only problem is that Sid Meier is not the head of the development department" }, { "start": 5218.298, "end": 5223.382, "text": "and a game like Civilization needs graphics, music, and so on at some point." }, { "start": 5223.702, "end": 5227.785, "text": "But the head of the development department, Ted Markley, is not paid for Sid" }, { "start": 5227.785, "end": 5231.588, "text": "Meier's projects at this point. That's why it was very difficult to get support from him." }, { "start": 5232.479, "end": 5236.591, "text": "So the game officially has to reach the status where it comes into production," }, { "start": 5236.591, "end": 5240.875, "text": "gets green light and then resources from the development department go on top" }, { "start": 5240.875, "end": 5245.078, "text": "of it. And that would have taken a lot longer than it should have." }, { "start": 5245.638, "end": 5250.742, "text": "Bruce Shelly is still a bit angry about it, because in the end the game actually was delayed." }, { "start": 5251.803, "end": 5255.515, "text": "Civilization broke its original deadline and that was because," }, { "start": 5255.515, "end": 5261.81, "text": "according to Bruce Shelly, they got the support from the development department too late." }, { "start": 5262.41, "end": 5266.853, "text": "But for that, he and the others were shorted the bonus. So a monetary disadvantage" }, { "start": 5266.853, "end": 5270.256, "text": "for something they actually wouldn't have owed. Bruce Shelley tells me." }, { "start": 5270.517, "end": 5274.089, "text": "It was important for me to talk to him about the topic of graphics," }, { "start": 5274.089, "end": 5277.182, "text": "because I'm a big fan of Civilization's graphics and I believe that it also" }, { "start": 5277.182, "end": 5281.144, "text": "has a significant share in the success. And I asked him, how was that actually?" }, { "start": 5281.185, "end": 5284.768, "text": "We had made the decisions about how much graphics would be included and what kind of graphics." }, { "start": 5285.469, "end": 5290.592, "text": "And Bruce didn't remember much about this whole story. I already knew that graphics" }, { "start": 5290.592, "end": 5293.514, "text": "weren't that important to him. He said that in a GDC talk." }, { "start": 5293.955, "end": 5295.896, "text": "This has also come true here." }, { "start": 5297.158, "end": 5299.719, "text": "He specifically, and he is also suspected to be Sid Meier, did not think so" }, { "start": 5299.719, "end": 5302.041, "text": "much about the graphic representation." }, { "start": 5302.041, "end": 5310.167, "text": "There was an art director at Microprose, Michael Herr, and he did a great job according to Bruce." }, { "start": 5310.167, "end": 5316.732, "text": "He took on that, he made the design decisions, and the visual design of Civilization" }, { "start": 5316.732, "end": 5321.135, "text": "happened with Michael Herr and his team of graphic designers died." }, { "start": 5322.378, "end": 5327.407, "text": "The interface design and the readability of Civilization are also very good." }, { "start": 5327.407, "end": 5330.293, "text": "Bruce has no recollection of him participating in the development." }, { "start": 5330.635, "end": 5333.139, "text": "He thinks it was all Sid Meier's doing." }, { "start": 5333.921, "end": 5338.924, "text": "I wanted to know how a Civilization without Bruce Shelley would look like." }, { "start": 5338.924, "end": 5344.447, "text": "And he said, well, probably very similar to what Civilization looks like today." }, { "start": 5346.99, "end": 5350.972, "text": "Although, you have to be a little restrictive. He was also a little restrictive." }, { "start": 5351.092, "end": 5357.076, "text": "He assumes that if Sid Meier had chosen another designer at Microprose as a partner," }, { "start": 5357.076, "end": 5362.02, "text": "there were others, then it could be that they might have pushed their ideas" }, { "start": 5362.02, "end": 5364.922, "text": "more, that they would have been more convinced of it, that they have good ideas" }, { "start": 5364.922, "end": 5366.764, "text": "that they have to go in with." }, { "start": 5366.764, "end": 5371.247, "text": "And Bruce Shelley describes the underlying between the lines," }, { "start": 5371.247, "end": 5374.95, "text": "describes himself in a role that gives the feedback unkindly." }, { "start": 5375.39, "end": 5380.734, "text": "And says, okay, watch out, that's what I mean, but it's your thing to make a" }, { "start": 5380.734, "end": 5383.536, "text": "decision about it. If you are of the opinion, no, my proposal is not good," }, { "start": 5383.536, "end": 5387.179, "text": "then okay, it doesn't matter, it's your game." }, { "start": 5388.08, "end": 5391.783, "text": "And I think that makes it easy for Sid Meier, because he doesn't have to fight" }, { "start": 5391.783, "end": 5395.265, "text": "against resistance or feel obliged to build something, but can sort of pick out the raisins." }, { "start": 5395.726, "end": 5397.457, "text": "At least that's Bruce's interpretation." }, { "start": 5398.108, "end": 5402.911, "text": "But Bruce also said, with certainty, civilization was more important to me and" }, { "start": 5402.911, "end": 5406.114, "text": "my life and my later career than I was important to civilization." }, { "start": 5408.176, "end": 5412.878, "text": "The difference between Civilization and the work on it in Bruce's life will come later." }, { "start": 5414.08, "end": 5419.604, "text": "At the moment, that doesn't affect Microprose. It will take a while until it" }, { "start": 5419.604, "end": 5424.928, "text": "becomes clear that Civilization is a success, when it is released at the end of 1990." }, { "start": 5424.928, "end": 5428.871, "text": "Sid Meier and Microprose are busy with new versions of the game," }, { "start": 5428.871, "end": 5431.333, "text": "there are bugs to be fixed, balancing problems." }, { "start": 5431.734, "end": 5437.077, "text": "That has to happen in the next few months. I asked him if he could tell that" }, { "start": 5437.077, "end": 5441.841, "text": "the success of Civilization led to a change of mind about what games are successful" }, { "start": 5441.841, "end": 5443.182, "text": "and what can be done at Microprose." }, { "start": 5444.303, "end": 5450.748, "text": "He had to think about it a bit and said, well, maybe the developers should pursue other ideas." }, { "start": 5451.148, "end": 5454.01, "text": "But it didn't seem to be very tangible." }, { "start": 5454.631, "end": 5459.414, "text": "The problem is that Bruce likes his job, as we said, but it's financially difficult." }, { "start": 5459.414, "end": 5464.017, "text": "He gets a relatively low salary. She knows that by comparing herself to other" }, { "start": 5464.017, "end": 5468.481, "text": "designers and her wife is currently at home without work." }, { "start": 5468.481, "end": 5473.744, "text": "She is a successful bank manager, but has taken a year of sabbatical," }, { "start": 5473.744, "end": 5476.546, "text": "so to speak, a break while she is looking for a new job." }, { "start": 5476.546, "end": 5482.31, "text": "And finally she gets an offer from a bank in Chicago as a manager and earns" }, { "start": 5482.31, "end": 5486.773, "text": "three times what Bruce gets at Microprose as a starting salary." }, { "start": 5487.994, "end": 5491.636, "text": "And that is ultimately the decisive factor, because although Bruce Shelley got" }, { "start": 5491.636, "end": 5496.119, "text": "salary increases from Michael Burrs, it doesn't get him where he wants to go," }, { "start": 5496.119, "end": 5497.42, "text": "not at the level of other designers." }, { "start": 5497.78, "end": 5501.803, "text": "The work is no longer the same. Sid Meier is burned out after Civilization." }, { "start": 5502.243, "end": 5509.167, "text": "He works with Bruce Shelley on a war game about the American Civil War, but ..." }, { "start": 5510.129, "end": 5516.794, "text": "It's not a project that has the same drive, the same spirit as Railroad Tycoon or Civilization." }, { "start": 5518.236, "end": 5521.758, "text": "Bruce is also not sure how it should go with Microprose." }, { "start": 5522.079, "end": 5526.882, "text": "The company also seems to be in trouble. There was this arcade game adventure" }, { "start": 5526.882, "end": 5531.306, "text": "by Bill Steely that was expensive and ultimately a flop. So all signs are that" }, { "start": 5531.306, "end": 5535.189, "text": "it may be time to move on. And above all, that's the crucial point." }, { "start": 5535.59, "end": 5539.032, "text": "He said, we could live on the salary of my wife alone, but not on my salary" }, { "start": 5539.032, "end": 5545.436, "text": "at Microprose alone. And so they decide to move to Chicago and Bruce stops at Microprose." }, { "start": 5547.498, "end": 5552.381, "text": "I found that a bit strange. Not from the perspective of Bruce Shelley." }, { "start": 5552.381, "end": 5554.122, "text": "Completely understandable the decision." }, { "start": 5554.562, "end": 5559.245, "text": "I found it strange from the perspective of Sid Meier. Why does someone like" }, { "start": 5559.245, "end": 5563.128, "text": "Sid Meier let someone like Bruce Shelley go? They had this cool cooperation." }, { "start": 5564.269, "end": 5569.052, "text": "Why does Sid Meier, even if he's no longer involved in the company," }, { "start": 5569.052, "end": 5574.555, "text": "still have something to say, that has a weight to it? Why doesn't he make an" }, { "start": 5574.555, "end": 5576.936, "text": "effort to get Bruce Shelley a better salary, for example?" }, { "start": 5578.478, "end": 5581.239, "text": "And Bruce, apart from the fact that Sid Meier, I think, was struggling with" }, { "start": 5581.239, "end": 5586.662, "text": "his own problems at the time, says, Bruce, well, we never talked about it." }, { "start": 5588.284, "end": 5595.028, "text": "He told me that it was not a big deal, but I imagine that he just never talked" }, { "start": 5595.028, "end": 5597.269, "text": "about his financial situation with Sid." }, { "start": 5598.13, "end": 5603.754, "text": "And Sid Meier probably didn't even know how Bruce Shelley actually felt about it." }, { "start": 5603.754, "end": 5606.376, "text": "Well, in any case, the colleagues throw him a chic farewell party with dress" }, { "start": 5606.376, "end": 5609.138, "text": "code and everything, and then he moves on to Chicago." }, { "start": 5609.138, "end": 5613.081, "text": "He doesn't have an answer shop, but he finds one and writes solution books," }, { "start": 5613.081, "end": 5617.805, "text": "strategy guides for the next few years, among other things for the colonization" }, { "start": 5617.805, "end": 5621.627, "text": "of Microprose, i.e. for the game that will be based on Civilization." }, { "start": 5623.269, "end": 5628.572, "text": "And then he finally joins the ensemble and works on Age of Empires and thus" }, { "start": 5628.572, "end": 5631.394, "text": "lands the second big hit of his career." }, { "start": 5634.037, "end": 5637.658, "text": "That was the conversation with Bruce Shelley, those were the main insights from" }, { "start": 5637.658, "end": 5641.521, "text": "it and my summary. As I said, I was very happy to talk to him." }, { "start": 5641.521, "end": 5645.784, "text": "Bruce Shelley is a modest, very polite, very friendly person." }, { "start": 5646.764, "end": 5649.866, "text": "And I am very happy not only that he worked in Civilization," }, { "start": 5649.866, "end": 5653.829, "text": "in Age of Empires, but that we had the opportunity to talk to him." }, { "start": 5653.869, "end": 5659.427, "text": "At this point, thanks again to Bruce and thanks to you for listening. See you next time." } ]