[ { "start": 0.0, "end": 2.96, "text": " [MUSIC PLAYING]" }, { "start": 2.96, "end": 9.2, "text": " Our readers are essentially paying us" }, { "start": 9.2, "end": 11.52, "text": " to tell them what's important." }, { "start": 11.52, "end": 13.92, "text": " So what we can't do is take their money" }, { "start": 13.92, "end": 15.96, "text": " and then say, well, we don't actually know what's important," }, { "start": 15.96, "end": 17.64, "text": " but we'll just look at what you're clicking on" }, { "start": 17.64, "end": 18.52, "text": " and do more of that." }, { "start": 18.52, "end": 20.92, "text": " Because that doesn't really help anyone." }, { "start": 20.92, "end": 23.52, "text": " You just get more articles about Elon Musk and electric cars," }, { "start": 23.52, "end": 24.02, "text": " right?" }, { "start": 24.02, "end": 25.4, "text": " Because that's what everyone-- or Apple." }, { "start": 25.4, "end": 26.96, "text": " That's what everyone wants to click on." }, { "start": 26.96, "end": 29.92, "text": " [MUSIC PLAYING]" }, { "start": 29.92, "end": 32.92, "text": " [MUSIC PLAYING]" }, { "start": 32.92, "end": 35.92, "text": " [MUSIC PLAYING]" }, { "start": 36.92, "end": 39.92, "text": " [SPEAKING GERMAN]" }, { "start": 39.92, "end": 58.92, "text": " Hello and welcome." }, { "start": 58.92, "end": 59.92, "text": " My name is Bern Vasari." }, { "start": 59.92, "end": 61.92, "text": " I'm a editor at WZ." }, { "start": 61.92, "end": 64.92, "text": " In the media industry, it's all about corners and ends." }, { "start": 64.92, "end": 68.92, "text": " Paper, newspapers, and magazines are always less read." }, { "start": 68.92, "end": 72.92, "text": " In addition, people are hardly ready to pay for online content." }, { "start": 72.92, "end": 74.92, "text": " The economist knows these problems" }, { "start": 74.92, "end": 76.92, "text": " contrary to the hearing." }, { "start": 76.92, "end": 79.92, "text": " The readership could increase in the past two years" }, { "start": 79.92, "end": 83.92, "text": " by 100,000-page subscribers and subscribers." }, { "start": 83.92, "end": 84.92, "text": " How does this work?" }, { "start": 84.92, "end": 86.92, "text": " What mistakes should media houses avoid" }, { "start": 86.92, "end": 89.92, "text": " to ensure that we can achieve a good mix of young and old editors" }, { "start": 89.92, "end": 90.92, "text": " and editors?" }, { "start": 90.92, "end": 95.92, "text": " [SPEAKING GERMAN]" }, { "start": 95.92, "end": 107.92, "text": " Hi, Tom." }, { "start": 107.92, "end": 108.42, "text": " Hello." }, { "start": 108.42, "end": 109.42, "text": " It's good to be here." }, { "start": 109.42, "end": 110.92, "text": " Thank you for having us." }, { "start": 110.92, "end": 115.92, "text": " So while many media outlets are struggling with declining readership," }, { "start": 115.92, "end": 117.92, "text": " the economist shows no sign of it." }, { "start": 117.92, "end": 119.92, "text": " Your readership is growing and growing." }, { "start": 119.92, "end": 123.92, "text": " Two years ago, you had 1,088,000 subscribers." }, { "start": 123.92, "end": 127.92, "text": " Today, you have 1,185,000 subscribers." }, { "start": 127.92, "end": 129.92, "text": " That's nearly 100,000 more in two years." }, { "start": 129.92, "end": 132.92, "text": " What is your secret of success?" }, { "start": 132.92, "end": 134.92, "text": " Oh, that's a very good question." }, { "start": 134.92, "end": 137.92, "text": " I think the economist is quite an unusual publication." }, { "start": 137.92, "end": 141.92, "text": " So I should probably say that upfront," }, { "start": 141.92, "end": 144.92, "text": " because obviously we are a global publication." }, { "start": 144.92, "end": 147.92, "text": " So we're based in Britain, but we have people all over the world." }, { "start": 147.92, "end": 151.92, "text": " And what's even stranger is that most of our readers are in North America." }, { "start": 151.92, "end": 154.92, "text": " So they're outside the region where we're based." }, { "start": 154.92, "end": 160.92, "text": " And so we like to think of ourselves as not being based in a particular place." }, { "start": 160.92, "end": 164.92, "text": " We don't have a political allegiance to a particular place." }, { "start": 164.92, "end": 168.92, "text": " We have a particular philosophy that we follow," }, { "start": 168.92, "end": 171.92, "text": " which is sort of 19th century liberalism, you might say." }, { "start": 171.92, "end": 174.92, "text": " So I think part of our success has been that--" }, { "start": 174.92, "end": 177.92, "text": " and this has been the story for the last 50 years or so--" }, { "start": 177.92, "end": 180.92, "text": " we have attracted readers in North America" }, { "start": 180.92, "end": 183.92, "text": " because we provide a global perspective" }, { "start": 183.92, "end": 187.92, "text": " that is maybe a bit broader than they get from their local media." }, { "start": 187.92, "end": 191.92, "text": " Now, it has to be said that both the New York Times and The Washington Post" }, { "start": 191.92, "end": 194.92, "text": " are also pursuing global media strategies." }, { "start": 194.92, "end": 197.92, "text": " I'm a subscriber to both, even though I live in the UK." }, { "start": 197.92, "end": 200.92, "text": " And that's something we've seen many other publications doing" }, { "start": 200.92, "end": 202.92, "text": " in the English-speaking world." }, { "start": 202.92, "end": 204.92, "text": " The Guardian has done the same." }, { "start": 204.92, "end": 208.92, "text": " It has quite a big operation in Australia now and in the US as well." }, { "start": 208.92, "end": 212.92, "text": " So we sort of pioneered that model in retrospect." }, { "start": 212.92, "end": 216.92, "text": " So I think that's part of it that, you know, for some subscribers," }, { "start": 216.92, "end": 220.92, "text": " particularly, I think people who are interested in global affairs and global business," }, { "start": 220.92, "end": 226.92, "text": " that global perspective is something that they have seen more and more value for." }, { "start": 226.92, "end": 230.92, "text": " And I think we all feel now that-- and we saw this with the pandemic," }, { "start": 230.92, "end": 233.92, "text": " but we see it with globalization, we see it with the internet." }, { "start": 233.92, "end": 237.92, "text": " Increasingly, you can't just take a national perspective on things." }, { "start": 237.92, "end": 241.92, "text": " You have to understand how all the things in the world, you know, are interconnected" }, { "start": 241.92, "end": 245.92, "text": " and how things on the other side of the world can affect you." }, { "start": 245.92, "end": 249.92, "text": " And so I think that has also meant that there has been a growing appetite" }, { "start": 249.92, "end": 253.92, "text": " for the kind of global perspective that we provide." }, { "start": 253.92, "end": 256.92, "text": " So I think that has helped as well." }, { "start": 256.92, "end": 260.92, "text": " And then the other thing that we've noticed is that we tend to pick up readers" }, { "start": 260.92, "end": 265.92, "text": " when times are uncertain and when they're difficult." }, { "start": 265.92, "end": 270.92, "text": " So we, you know, have a sort of counter-cyclical benefit that when there's a recession," }, { "start": 270.92, "end": 273.92, "text": " people go, \"Oh, no, I don't know what's going to happen.\"" }, { "start": 273.92, "end": 278.92, "text": " We saw this during the Trump presidency that also in many publications saw this," }, { "start": 278.92, "end": 284.92, "text": " the Trump bump, that the uncertainty that caused and the sort of global implications" }, { "start": 284.92, "end": 290.92, "text": " of what was happening in America meant that there was a lot more interest in a global perspective." }, { "start": 290.92, "end": 294.92, "text": " And of course, what we've seen in the last few years, in retrospect," }, { "start": 294.92, "end": 300.92, "text": " the pandemic marked the end of a period of really quite unusual stability," }, { "start": 300.92, "end": 303.92, "text": " which sort of started to unravel in 2016." }, { "start": 303.92, "end": 310.92, "text": " But if you look at the first 15 years of this century, and certainly if you look at the last," }, { "start": 310.92, "end": 315.92, "text": " most of the 2010s, you had this period of relatively little great power conflict" }, { "start": 315.92, "end": 321.92, "text": " because the Cold War had ended and you had low inflation, you had low interest rates." }, { "start": 321.92, "end": 329.92, "text": " And, you know, that has actually meant that we had this period of sort of calm and stability," }, { "start": 329.92, "end": 332.92, "text": " relatively speaking. And that's clearly come to an end." }, { "start": 332.92, "end": 334.92, "text": " We now have a lot more economic uncertainty." }, { "start": 334.92, "end": 337.92, "text": " We have a lot more geopolitical uncertainty, not just because of Ukraine," }, { "start": 337.92, "end": 340.92, "text": " but also because of growing tension between the US and China." }, { "start": 340.92, "end": 347.92, "text": " And we also have the unpredictable nature of climate change and the extreme weather events." }, { "start": 347.92, "end": 352.92, "text": " So there are all of these things where suddenly unpredictability is back." }, { "start": 352.92, "end": 359.92, "text": " And that I have to, you know, sadly confess means that more people then generally want to read the economists." }, { "start": 359.92, "end": 366.92, "text": " So all of those things added up probably explain why our circulation continues to grow." }, { "start": 366.92, "end": 369.92, "text": " There is a big challenge in media now." }, { "start": 369.92, "end": 372.92, "text": " The balance is shifting away from brand to online." }, { "start": 372.92, "end": 375.92, "text": " And this development can also be seen in the economists." }, { "start": 375.92, "end": 379.92, "text": " Two years ago, you had 35% of your subscribers." }, { "start": 379.92, "end": 382.92, "text": " They were digital. Today it's 52%." }, { "start": 382.92, "end": 386.92, "text": " But this is also interesting in contrast to other newspapers and magazines." }, { "start": 386.92, "end": 391.92, "text": " You have a paywall. So all your subscribers pay for your online stories." }, { "start": 391.92, "end": 394.92, "text": " What would you say? Which mistakes did you avoid?" }, { "start": 394.92, "end": 396.92, "text": " I think that's a good way of putting it." }, { "start": 396.92, "end": 399.92, "text": " I'd like to say this was all part of a grand strategy." }, { "start": 399.92, "end": 404.92, "text": " To some extent it was, but I think it's also the case that we were lucky in some respects" }, { "start": 404.92, "end": 408.92, "text": " in our approach to digital and our approach to the internet." }, { "start": 408.92, "end": 412.92, "text": " So yes, the first thing is that for as long as we've had a website," }, { "start": 412.92, "end": 416.92, "text": " I mean, we had a website quite early in, I think, '95," }, { "start": 416.92, "end": 421.92, "text": " because we had a couple of editors who were very aware of the internet." }, { "start": 421.92, "end": 424.92, "text": " And it was going to come and it was going to be a big deal." }, { "start": 424.92, "end": 426.92, "text": " We started reporting on that quite early on." }, { "start": 426.92, "end": 431.92, "text": " So they set up a website with a few articles each week, but it really was only four or five." }, { "start": 431.92, "end": 436.92, "text": " So when we started putting all of our content on the internet every week," }, { "start": 436.92, "end": 439.92, "text": " because at that point we were just a weekly print magazine," }, { "start": 439.92, "end": 441.92, "text": " and so we had a drop of articles every week." }, { "start": 441.92, "end": 443.92, "text": " And obviously things have changed a lot since then." }, { "start": 443.92, "end": 445.92, "text": " But that was when it really began." }, { "start": 445.92, "end": 449.92, "text": " And our website now, the archive goes back to that year, to 1997." }, { "start": 449.92, "end": 452.92, "text": " And when we started doing that, we did have a paywall." }, { "start": 452.92, "end": 454.92, "text": " We always had a paywall." }, { "start": 454.92, "end": 456.92, "text": " And we've moved the paywall around and we've changed the rules." }, { "start": 456.92, "end": 460.92, "text": " And we've sometimes had some bits free and some bits not free." }, { "start": 460.92, "end": 463.92, "text": " And the number of articles you can read free if you're not a subscriber" }, { "start": 463.92, "end": 465.92, "text": " has gone up and down and all this sort of thing." }, { "start": 465.92, "end": 469.92, "text": " But to gain full access to the economist in digital form," }, { "start": 469.92, "end": 471.92, "text": " you've always had to pay for it." }, { "start": 471.92, "end": 476.92, "text": " And then when we launched our apps in 2010, that was the case as well." }, { "start": 476.92, "end": 481.92, "text": " So we've never had to sort of change our position and go back to our readers" }, { "start": 481.92, "end": 484.92, "text": " and say, well, you know how this stuff you've been getting for free," }, { "start": 484.92, "end": 486.92, "text": " well, now I'm afraid you're going to have to start paying for it." }, { "start": 486.92, "end": 488.92, "text": " It's always been something that people have had to pay for." }, { "start": 488.92, "end": 494.92, "text": " So I think a lot of newspapers in the internet boom were chasing advertising revenue," }, { "start": 494.92, "end": 497.92, "text": " and they were chasing essentially clicks," }, { "start": 497.92, "end": 499.92, "text": " and that really changes the way you approach journalism." }, { "start": 499.92, "end": 503.92, "text": " And what that meant was, you know, the more clicks the better, the more people the better." }, { "start": 503.92, "end": 509.92, "text": " And then when the internet advertising started to become less valuable," }, { "start": 509.92, "end": 513.92, "text": " they had a problem and they started to have to put up paywalls," }, { "start": 513.92, "end": 514.92, "text": " which I think is the right strategy." }, { "start": 514.92, "end": 518.92, "text": " But that meant that they had been training their readers to expect something to be free" }, { "start": 518.92, "end": 519.92, "text": " for years and years and years." }, { "start": 519.92, "end": 521.92, "text": " And then they said, actually, it's not free anymore." }, { "start": 521.92, "end": 523.92, "text": " And that's a difficult transition to go through." }, { "start": 523.92, "end": 524.92, "text": " And we never had to go through that." }, { "start": 524.92, "end": 526.92, "text": " We always had a paywall." }, { "start": 526.92, "end": 528.92, "text": " And also we've always had quite a high subscription price." }, { "start": 528.92, "end": 534.92, "text": " I mean, you know, essentially our readers are people who are prepared to pay our subscription price" }, { "start": 534.92, "end": 538.92, "text": " because they feel they get enough value from the publication that it saves them time" }, { "start": 538.92, "end": 541.92, "text": " and it gives them insights that they can't get elsewhere." }, { "start": 541.92, "end": 548.92, "text": " And so again, we saw some of our rivals weekly news publications in America in particular." }, { "start": 548.92, "end": 551.92, "text": " They pursued an advertising-based model." }, { "start": 551.92, "end": 553.92, "text": " They cut their subscription prices very low." }, { "start": 553.92, "end": 557.92, "text": " And I'm thinking of magazines like Time and Newsweek here." }, { "start": 557.92, "end": 562.92, "text": " And so they were chasing very high circulations and they got to, you know," }, { "start": 562.92, "end": 565.92, "text": " $3 million or something like that, I think." }, { "start": 565.92, "end": 567.92, "text": " And of course, they were making most of their money on advertising." }, { "start": 567.92, "end": 573.92, "text": " And then when print advertising dried up around 2008, 2009," }, { "start": 573.92, "end": 579.92, "text": " they had a big problem because to pivot to a subscriber-driven model," }, { "start": 579.92, "end": 581.92, "text": " they had to raise their subscription prices." }, { "start": 581.92, "end": 583.92, "text": " So it's a bit like the problem with the paywall and the internet." }, { "start": 583.92, "end": 587.92, "text": " You've trained your readers to expect the publication to be quite low-cost" }, { "start": 587.92, "end": 593.92, "text": " and then raising your prices makes it difficult to hold on to those subscribers." }, { "start": 593.92, "end": 594.92, "text": " So we never made that mistake." }, { "start": 594.92, "end": 598.92, "text": " We always had a paywall and we've always had quite a high subscription price." }, { "start": 598.92, "end": 599.92, "text": " So that's part of it." }, { "start": 599.92, "end": 607.92, "text": " The other thing was that we never had a strategy of chasing an advertising-based model." }, { "start": 607.92, "end": 612.92, "text": " Our main supply of revenue has always been from our readers." }, { "start": 612.92, "end": 615.92, "text": " And obviously, there are times that I remember during the dot-com boom," }, { "start": 615.92, "end": 617.92, "text": " because I've been at the Economist for 25 years," }, { "start": 617.92, "end": 620.92, "text": " but I remember how thick the Economist was then" }, { "start": 620.92, "end": 623.92, "text": " because there was so much advertising from internet companies and telecoms companies." }, { "start": 623.92, "end": 626.92, "text": " And we were very, very happy to sell them advertising pages." }, { "start": 626.92, "end": 628.92, "text": " And while it lasted, you know, we happily took their money" }, { "start": 628.92, "end": 632.92, "text": " and we were even more profitable than we are without that." }, { "start": 632.92, "end": 635.92, "text": " But it meant that when that advertising dried up," }, { "start": 635.92, "end": 639.92, "text": " we still had our revenue from subscribers to sustain us." }, { "start": 639.92, "end": 644.92, "text": " We didn't have a model that depended on predominantly on advertising." }, { "start": 644.92, "end": 647.92, "text": " So in that respect, we were lucky." }, { "start": 647.92, "end": 650.92, "text": " And then if you look inside, this is a bit more sort of inside baseball" }, { "start": 650.92, "end": 651.92, "text": " for the publishing industry," }, { "start": 651.92, "end": 654.92, "text": " but what a lot of publications did in the 2000s" }, { "start": 654.92, "end": 658.92, "text": " was they hired a lot of journalists to write articles," }, { "start": 658.92, "end": 661.92, "text": " to write great content for digital platforms, for the web," }, { "start": 661.92, "end": 666.92, "text": " and then subsequently for, you know, for video on Facebook and all this sort of stuff." }, { "start": 666.92, "end": 669.92, "text": " And that was very often a sort of separate operation" }, { "start": 669.92, "end": 672.92, "text": " from the generally older and more experienced journalists" }, { "start": 672.92, "end": 674.92, "text": " that they had writing for their print editions." }, { "start": 674.92, "end": 678.92, "text": " And in many news organizations, that created a sort of cultural divide" }, { "start": 678.92, "end": 682.92, "text": " that the young writers were like, come on, this is the future." }, { "start": 682.92, "end": 683.92, "text": " We're changing the world." }, { "start": 683.92, "end": 685.92, "text": " Who are all these dinosaurs over here?" }, { "start": 685.92, "end": 688.92, "text": " And by the way, why are they paid so much more than we are?" }, { "start": 688.92, "end": 691.92, "text": " And then the older journalists saying, who are these whippersnappers" }, { "start": 691.92, "end": 692.92, "text": " and what is this internet?" }, { "start": 692.92, "end": 694.92, "text": " And it's just getting in the way of my job." }, { "start": 694.92, "end": 696.92, "text": " And I wish it would just go away." }, { "start": 696.92, "end": 697.92, "text": " It's just a fad." }, { "start": 697.92, "end": 700.92, "text": " And, you know, I'll leave the internet to those people," }, { "start": 700.92, "end": 701.92, "text": " those young people in the corner." }, { "start": 701.92, "end": 703.92, "text": " They can do the internet." }, { "start": 703.92, "end": 707.92, "text": " And of course, you know, neither of those positions is right." }, { "start": 707.92, "end": 710.92, "text": " The internet was the future and it is part of your job." }, { "start": 710.92, "end": 716.92, "text": " But it was also not sustainable in the way that those companies very often were approaching it," }, { "start": 716.92, "end": 720.92, "text": " which was, you know, they were trying to pay the salaries of all of their digital journalists" }, { "start": 720.92, "end": 723.92, "text": " from advertising revenue that then turned out not to be there anymore." }, { "start": 723.92, "end": 727.92, "text": " So many news organizations then went through this very painful process" }, { "start": 727.92, "end": 732.92, "text": " of having to crunch together two really quite different groups of people." }, { "start": 732.92, "end": 737.92, "text": " And, you know, that, that again is something that the economists managed to avoid." }, { "start": 737.92, "end": 742.92, "text": " Our approach during the dot com boom was not to hire lots more journalists." }, { "start": 742.92, "end": 746.92, "text": " In fact, the editor at the time, Bill Emmett said that the right strategy," }, { "start": 746.92, "end": 750.92, "text": " because we weren't really sure what was going to happen with internet business models and so on," }, { "start": 750.92, "end": 753.92, "text": " he said the right strategy is to do the least we can get away with." }, { "start": 753.92, "end": 757.92, "text": " So we did start publishing some pieces during the week between the," }, { "start": 757.92, "end": 760.92, "text": " the Thursdays when our weekly edition comes out," }, { "start": 760.92, "end": 763.92, "text": " but they were written by the same people who write the weekly." }, { "start": 763.92, "end": 768.92, "text": " So the idea was that anyone who covers a particular topic," }, { "start": 768.92, "end": 774.92, "text": " whether it's France or cars or China or, you know, I don't know, the Brazilian economy," }, { "start": 774.92, "end": 779.92, "text": " they would, it would be the same person writing for our digital platforms as for our print edition." }, { "start": 779.92, "end": 783.92, "text": " And that has meant that, you know, because we've increased our output," }, { "start": 783.92, "end": 787.92, "text": " we've had, we have had to hire more people and the number of journalists has gone steadily up" }, { "start": 787.92, "end": 790.92, "text": " and the number of foreign bureaus has gone steadily up." }, { "start": 790.92, "end": 795.92, "text": " But we did that in a very sort of gradual way and we basically added to our existing newsroom" }, { "start": 795.92, "end": 797.92, "text": " and our existing roster of journalists." }, { "start": 797.92, "end": 799.92, "text": " We never had a separate team of digital journalists." }, { "start": 799.92, "end": 805.92, "text": " So again, that was a mistake that I think a lot of publications in retrospect did make" }, { "start": 805.92, "end": 808.92, "text": " and came to regret and we managed to avoid that one too." }, { "start": 808.92, "end": 810.92, "text": " And that has also been a good thing." }, { "start": 810.92, "end": 813.92, "text": " Of course, this is very unhelpful when people come and visit and say," }, { "start": 813.92, "end": 815.92, "text": " how can we learn from the economists?" }, { "start": 815.92, "end": 816.92, "text": " What can we do?" }, { "start": 816.92, "end": 819.92, "text": " Well, unless you've got a time machine, you can't avoid that one." }, { "start": 819.92, "end": 824.92, "text": " And then the, the kind of being a publication that's based in Britain," }, { "start": 824.92, "end": 827.92, "text": " but has most of its readers in another part of the world," }, { "start": 827.92, "end": 829.92, "text": " that's quite difficult for people to copy as well." }, { "start": 829.92, "end": 834.92, "text": " So it's not like these were great sort of strategic plans that we, that we did." }, { "start": 834.92, "end": 838.92, "text": " We basically avoided mistakes in some areas and we were quite lucky in others." }, { "start": 838.92, "end": 845.92, "text": " And I think the main thing that we did that was a deliberate choice was to never make all of our content free." }, { "start": 845.92, "end": 851.92, "text": " This is very interesting because many newspapers and magazines fetch young employees for only for the online sections." }, { "start": 851.92, "end": 854.92, "text": " The older employees only take care of print." }, { "start": 854.92, "end": 857.92, "text": " So there's a culture clash then." }, { "start": 857.92, "end": 858.92, "text": " But how do you do it?" }, { "start": 858.92, "end": 861.92, "text": " In which areas do you deploy young employees?" }, { "start": 861.92, "end": 864.92, "text": " How does it work if a young employee comes to the economist?" }, { "start": 864.92, "end": 868.92, "text": " So it's always been the case that, I mean, I started on the science desk," }, { "start": 868.92, "end": 871.92, "text": " which is one of the places where, where people start." }, { "start": 871.92, "end": 875.92, "text": " And the great thing about science is you have to write about all sorts of different subjects." }, { "start": 875.92, "end": 877.92, "text": " And you end up not just writing for the science pages," }, { "start": 877.92, "end": 882.92, "text": " but when there's sort of a science, you know, policy debate or there's a some sort of," }, { "start": 882.92, "end": 886.92, "text": " I mean, something like the pandemic that became a science story that touched everything else." }, { "start": 886.92, "end": 890.92, "text": " So it means that you naturally sort of end up working with other departments" }, { "start": 890.92, "end": 894.92, "text": " and then when it's time to move on, you move on into one of those departments." }, { "start": 894.92, "end": 901.92, "text": " So I specialized in science, but also the sort of hard end of science, physics and microchips and that sort of thing." }, { "start": 901.92, "end": 904.92, "text": " So I ended up writing about tech on the business section next." }, { "start": 904.92, "end": 907.92, "text": " That's where I went. I went into business, but other people go in, in other directions." }, { "start": 907.92, "end": 912.92, "text": " We also quite often start people on the Britain section and in the finance pages." }, { "start": 912.92, "end": 919.92, "text": " And then we have a whole load of digital roles like the social media department, the films department," }, { "start": 919.92, "end": 921.92, "text": " and they are producing digital content." }, { "start": 921.92, "end": 927.92, "text": " But very often what happens is that the people working on those departments," }, { "start": 927.92, "end": 932.92, "text": " they're not part of the core journalism team in the sense that they're writing for the weekly," }, { "start": 932.92, "end": 934.92, "text": " but very often or indeed for the website." }, { "start": 934.92, "end": 938.92, "text": " But very often the smart ones do start pitching articles." }, { "start": 938.92, "end": 942.92, "text": " They do start, you know, they start writing explainers and they start writing daily charts" }, { "start": 942.92, "end": 945.92, "text": " and then they start writing the longer pieces for other sections." }, { "start": 945.92, "end": 948.92, "text": " And that's how they then move on." }, { "start": 948.92, "end": 953.92, "text": " So there are those particular departments where people tend to start." }, { "start": 953.92, "end": 958.92, "text": " We also have quite a long tradition of internships and furthermore, they're paid internships" }, { "start": 958.92, "end": 962.92, "text": " and they're paid quite well because living in London where many of these internships happen," }, { "start": 962.92, "end": 965.92, "text": " also in New York and Washington, is expensive." }, { "start": 965.92, "end": 969.92, "text": " And so we don't want it to be the case that only people who already have somewhere to live" }, { "start": 969.92, "end": 971.92, "text": " can apply for these internships." }, { "start": 971.92, "end": 977.92, "text": " And that is also a very common source of new talent for us" }, { "start": 977.92, "end": 981.92, "text": " that people who are interns, they may not be hired immediately," }, { "start": 981.92, "end": 984.92, "text": " but they are very often subsequently hired." }, { "start": 984.92, "end": 989.92, "text": " And so that means that we have lots of, you know, plenty of young people coming in" }, { "start": 989.92, "end": 996.92, "text": " and going straight into the sort of core journalistic operation," }, { "start": 996.92, "end": 999.92, "text": " rather than saying you have to do 10 years writing for the website" }, { "start": 999.92, "end": 1002.92, "text": " and then if you're lucky, we'll give you a job on the printed edition," }, { "start": 1002.92, "end": 1006.92, "text": " which might have been a thing that newspapers would have said a few years ago," }, { "start": 1006.92, "end": 1009.92, "text": " but I think, you know, that wouldn't be a terribly appealing prospect these days" }, { "start": 1009.92, "end": 1011.92, "text": " because print editions are going away." }, { "start": 1011.92, "end": 1015.92, "text": " And I think the sort of prestige of print, which has been there for a long time," }, { "start": 1015.92, "end": 1018.92, "text": " I think people are paying less attention to that." }, { "start": 1018.92, "end": 1020.92, "text": " We certainly are paying less attention to that." }, { "start": 1020.92, "end": 1024.92, "text": " You know, obviously we want our print edition to be what it's always been," }, { "start": 1024.92, "end": 1028.92, "text": " the sort of desert island read if there's only one publication that's dropped from an airplane." }, { "start": 1028.92, "end": 1031.92, "text": " You can read it and you can understand what's happening in the world." }, { "start": 1031.92, "end": 1033.92, "text": " That's always been the aspiration." }, { "start": 1033.92, "end": 1038.92, "text": " But we are spreading out the publication of what we put in the weekly edition." }, { "start": 1038.92, "end": 1040.92, "text": " We're spreading that out throughout the week." }, { "start": 1040.92, "end": 1044.92, "text": " So again, you can consume the weekly as a digital product once a week." }, { "start": 1044.92, "end": 1047.92, "text": " You know, it comes out on Thursday and it's got a cover and you can do all that." }, { "start": 1047.92, "end": 1052.92, "text": " But you can also read, if you go to the home tab of our app," }, { "start": 1052.92, "end": 1058.92, "text": " you can, or the homepage of our website, you can read some of those pieces a few days earlier." }, { "start": 1058.92, "end": 1062.92, "text": " And we have a constant stream of other material coming out on our digital platforms." }, { "start": 1062.92, "end": 1070.92, "text": " And what we're seeing is that more and more of our subscriber base are reading us on a sort of more of a daily basis than a weekly basis." }, { "start": 1070.92, "end": 1076.92, "text": " And, you know, the style of our journalism is still not to switch to being a daily newspaper." }, { "start": 1076.92, "end": 1080.92, "text": " We are still not, you know, specialists in jumping on daily news stories." }, { "start": 1080.92, "end": 1084.92, "text": " There are lots and lots of other newspapers and news organizations that do that." }, { "start": 1084.92, "end": 1088.92, "text": " It's really the analysis. It's the global perspective." }, { "start": 1088.92, "end": 1094.92, "text": " It's, you know, it's a slightly step back from what's happening and telling you what it means approach." }, { "start": 1094.92, "end": 1098.92, "text": " And that's something we can deliver more than once a week." }, { "start": 1098.92, "end": 1100.92, "text": " I mean, we can deliver that on a daily basis." }, { "start": 1100.92, "end": 1104.92, "text": " But I think that's what people really value from us, not what's happened." }, { "start": 1104.92, "end": 1107.92, "text": " But this thing has happened. What does it mean?" }, { "start": 1107.92, "end": 1110.92, "text": " And that's really where we differentiate ourselves." }, { "start": 1110.92, "end": 1113.92, "text": " And that's not really, you know, all of that stuff I've just said," }, { "start": 1113.92, "end": 1118.92, "text": " that is independent of the medium where you deliver the journalism." }, { "start": 1118.92, "end": 1121.92, "text": " You can do that in print. You can do that in digital platforms." }, { "start": 1121.92, "end": 1126.92, "text": " Ultimately, what our readers are doing is they're paying us to help them understand the world." }, { "start": 1126.92, "end": 1130.92, "text": " And we used to do that through a print publication and we can now do that through, you know," }, { "start": 1130.92, "end": 1133.92, "text": " a range of digital platforms and print as well." }, { "start": 1133.92, "end": 1136.92, "text": " So I think our business model still works if print goes away." }, { "start": 1136.92, "end": 1140.92, "text": " That said, I think a lot of our readers do still do still like print." }, { "start": 1140.92, "end": 1143.92, "text": " So I think we do have quite a high cover price." }, { "start": 1143.92, "end": 1146.92, "text": " So I think we're likely to be one of the last digital publications," }, { "start": 1146.92, "end": 1150.92, "text": " sorry, one of the last print publications still standing, you know," }, { "start": 1150.92, "end": 1154.92, "text": " along with the glossy fashion magazines and architectural magazines." }, { "start": 1154.92, "end": 1157.92, "text": " Those things that look really, really nice on your coffee table." }, { "start": 1157.92, "end": 1162.92, "text": " But I think we'll be one of the last ones standing because our model is essentially not dependent" }, { "start": 1162.92, "end": 1165.92, "text": " on the way in which you read us or consumers." }, { "start": 1165.92, "end": 1169.92, "text": " So if I understood correctly, of course, you had a weekly cycle." }, { "start": 1169.92, "end": 1171.92, "text": " You had a weekly cycle with the print magazine." }, { "start": 1171.92, "end": 1174.92, "text": " And now with online, you have a daily cycle." }, { "start": 1174.92, "end": 1177.92, "text": " What do you do with breaking news? How important are..." }, { "start": 1177.92, "end": 1178.92, "text": " So we sort of have both." }, { "start": 1178.92, "end": 1184.92, "text": " So, yes, rather than thinking about it as printed digital, we think about it as weekly and daily." }, { "start": 1184.92, "end": 1190.92, "text": " So there are a bunch of things that happen on a weekly cycle, like designing the cover." }, { "start": 1190.92, "end": 1195.92, "text": " And then those weekly cycle things happen to be the things that go into the print edition," }, { "start": 1195.92, "end": 1198.92, "text": " but they also go into the digital version of the weekly edition." }, { "start": 1198.92, "end": 1201.92, "text": " And then we have a bunch of daily cycle things that happen." }, { "start": 1201.92, "end": 1205.92, "text": " So we have, you know, a set of daily newspaper, newsletters." }, { "start": 1205.92, "end": 1211.92, "text": " We have a daily news service called Espresso, which is a daily app." }, { "start": 1211.92, "end": 1217.92, "text": " And then we also, for some of the material that's going into the weekly, you know," }, { "start": 1217.92, "end": 1221.92, "text": " if it's an article about, I don't know, there's a summit on a Tuesday," }, { "start": 1221.92, "end": 1225.92, "text": " it makes much more sense to publish that on the Tuesday or indeed on the Monday" }, { "start": 1225.92, "end": 1229.92, "text": " and tell you what we think is going to happen, rather than, you know," }, { "start": 1229.92, "end": 1232.92, "text": " saying what actually happened afterwards on the Thursday." }, { "start": 1232.92, "end": 1238.92, "text": " So very often we'll have a, you know, we'll have a story that responds to news or anticipates news," }, { "start": 1238.92, "end": 1245.92, "text": " and then a version of that story, suitably updated, will appear in the weekly." }, { "start": 1245.92, "end": 1248.92, "text": " So what it means is that the sort of what we used to have, you know," }, { "start": 1248.92, "end": 1254.92, "text": " the number of new items published on digital platforms used to have this big lump on Thursdays." }, { "start": 1254.92, "end": 1257.92, "text": " And that lump has been gradually smoothed out now." }, { "start": 1257.92, "end": 1260.92, "text": " There's still a little bit of a lump, but it's much smaller than it was." }, { "start": 1260.92, "end": 1270.92, "text": " I think it's about a third of items appear for the first time on the Thursday that are in the weekly." }, { "start": 1270.92, "end": 1274.92, "text": " So in other words, two-thirds of the stuff in the weekly has already been published by then." }, { "start": 1274.92, "end": 1276.92, "text": " It's something like that now." }, { "start": 1276.92, "end": 1280.6, "text": " It's been changing quite rapidly in the last couple of years." }, { "start": 1280.71, "end": 1286.95, "text": " But what that means is that it is more likely that we're telling you about stuff that's" }, { "start": 1286.95, "end": 1287.95, "text": " relevant today." }, { "start": 1287.95, "end": 1292.39, "text": " It still all works as a weekly publication if you'd like to consume it that way." }, { "start": 1292.39, "end": 1295.75, "text": " And we are essentially meeting our readers where they want to be." }, { "start": 1295.75, "end": 1297.59, "text": " If they want to consume it weekly, they can." }, { "start": 1297.59, "end": 1302.39, "text": " And if they want it sort of spread out throughout the week, because there's quite a lot to read," }, { "start": 1302.39, "end": 1304.19, "text": " then they can do it that way too." }, { "start": 1304.19, "end": 1306.51, "text": " So you don't do breaking news?" }, { "start": 1306.51, "end": 1307.51, "text": " Not really, no." }, { "start": 1307.51, "end": 1310.49, "text": " We only do it if we think we can add something." }, { "start": 1310.49, "end": 1315.83, "text": " So I'm reminded of something like the Bataclan attack in Paris a few years ago." }, { "start": 1315.83, "end": 1317.55, "text": " And that took place on a Friday." }, { "start": 1317.55, "end": 1322.47, "text": " So the weekly edition had gone to bed, but obviously it was a big deal." }, { "start": 1322.47, "end": 1327.83, "text": " And we did put up a story that evening saying there's been this attack and all the rest of" }, { "start": 1327.83, "end": 1328.83, "text": " it." }, { "start": 1328.83, "end": 1329.83, "text": " But of course, everyone else did too." }, { "start": 1329.83, "end": 1337.19, "text": " And what we found that it was a quite eye-opening moment, I think, for many of our journalists" }, { "start": 1337.19, "end": 1341.93, "text": " was, it was one of the first times we had coordinated coverage on Slack." }, { "start": 1341.93, "end": 1344.01, "text": " So we'd recently started using Slack." }, { "start": 1344.01, "end": 1352.21, "text": " And that day, the editor who was in charge of the coverage said, we're not going to use" }, { "start": 1352.21, "end": 1354.65, "text": " email for this because there's just too many email threads." }, { "start": 1354.65, "end": 1356.65, "text": " If you're not on Slack, get on Slack now." }, { "start": 1356.65, "end": 1358.01, "text": " So everybody got on Slack." }, { "start": 1358.01, "end": 1360.57, "text": " So that was an eye-opening thing." }, { "start": 1360.57, "end": 1367.01, "text": " But the other thing was that one of our correspondents then wrote an analysis piece about what" }, { "start": 1367.01, "end": 1374.91, "text": " this terrorist attack in Paris meant for French foreign policy, for the French government's" }, { "start": 1374.91, "end": 1381.07, "text": " approach to migrants and to Islam and all this sort of thing." }, { "start": 1381.07, "end": 1385.39, "text": " And that piece did much, much better than our news piece." }, { "start": 1385.39, "end": 1389.71, "text": " The number of people who came and read that on our website on the Saturday was much, much" }, { "start": 1389.71, "end": 1390.71, "text": " higher." }, { "start": 1390.71, "end": 1392.39, "text": " Sorry, it was one or two days after." }, { "start": 1392.39, "end": 1393.39, "text": " It was the Saturday." }, { "start": 1393.39, "end": 1395.47, "text": " So the attack was on a Friday night." }, { "start": 1395.47, "end": 1402.21, "text": " We published that piece just before lunch, as I recall, on Saturday at the top of the" }, { "start": 1402.21, "end": 1403.21, "text": " website." }, { "start": 1403.21, "end": 1408.73, "text": " And that was the piece that got a lot more interest and a lot more people read it." }, { "start": 1408.73, "end": 1412.89, "text": " And that was because everybody had done the basic story of, this is what happened and this" }, { "start": 1412.89, "end": 1416.93, "text": " is how many people died and this is what went wrong and this is how the police responded" }, { "start": 1416.93, "end": 1418.37, "text": " and all the rest of it." }, { "start": 1418.37, "end": 1425.25, "text": " But what this meant for France in the coming months and years was that's exactly the kind" }, { "start": 1425.25, "end": 1427.47, "text": " of thing that we specialize in." }, { "start": 1427.47, "end": 1428.47, "text": " We can do it." }, { "start": 1428.47, "end": 1430.67, "text": " We don't need a whole week to think about that." }, { "start": 1430.67, "end": 1432.75, "text": " So we can respond to that." }, { "start": 1432.75, "end": 1434.11, "text": " You could say that's a breaking news story." }, { "start": 1434.11, "end": 1435.63, "text": " I mean, it was the next day." }, { "start": 1435.63, "end": 1438.19, "text": " But what we weren't doing, we weren't updating." }, { "start": 1438.19, "end": 1442.87, "text": " We didn't have a live blog with this many ambulances have arrived and all this sort of" }, { "start": 1442.87, "end": 1446.71, "text": " thing because there are lots of other news organizations that do that and do it very" }, { "start": 1446.71, "end": 1447.71, "text": " well." }, { "start": 1447.71, "end": 1448.71, "text": " Sorry, Andrew." }, { "start": 1448.71, "end": 1450.83, "text": " You have only one article about the event and that's it." }, { "start": 1450.83, "end": 1451.83, "text": " Yeah, probably." }, { "start": 1451.83, "end": 1452.83, "text": " Yes." }, { "start": 1452.83, "end": 1453.83, "text": " I mean, in that case, we had one." }, { "start": 1453.83, "end": 1458.63, "text": " It happened and then we had a, what does this mean, peace?" }, { "start": 1458.63, "end": 1464.15, "text": " In other cases, obviously you do need to have multiple pieces with something like the pandemic" }, { "start": 1464.15, "end": 1465.15, "text": " or the war in Ukraine." }, { "start": 1465.15, "end": 1466.15, "text": " It's a rolling story." }, { "start": 1466.15, "end": 1469.03, "text": " And so you have to approach that differently." }, { "start": 1469.03, "end": 1474.47, "text": " But I mean, something like the war, that's been a good example of how being able to provide" }, { "start": 1474.47, "end": 1478.43, "text": " analysis but being able to provide it in response to the news quickly." }, { "start": 1478.43, "end": 1482.75, "text": " So what does the destruction of that dam in Ukraine mean and all this sort of thing?" }, { "start": 1482.75, "end": 1486.51, "text": " That is the exactly the sort of thing that we do." }, { "start": 1486.51, "end": 1490.87, "text": " And that seems to be exactly what people value because you could spend hours reading through" }, { "start": 1490.87, "end": 1494.79, "text": " all of the live blogging of this, this has happened and that's happened." }, { "start": 1494.79, "end": 1497.59, "text": " And here's a video from Twitter of something blowing up and all that." }, { "start": 1497.59, "end": 1502.51, "text": " But if you actually just want to know what's happened today and what does it mean and you" }, { "start": 1502.51, "end": 1506.67, "text": " want to do that once a day, then we can help you with that." }, { "start": 1506.67, "end": 1511.03, "text": " Come to our website or look on our app once a day and we can tell you." }, { "start": 1511.03, "end": 1517.47, "text": " And so we've heard this from many people that with something like the war, following that" }, { "start": 1517.47, "end": 1524.11, "text": " without spending your whole time refreshing Twitter or reloading newspaper live blogs," }, { "start": 1524.11, "end": 1528.75, "text": " if you just want to stay up to date but not spend too long doing it, then that's the sort" }, { "start": 1528.75, "end": 1531.99, "text": " of thing that we can help you with." }, { "start": 1531.99, "end": 1533.27, "text": " What would you say?" }, { "start": 1533.27, "end": 1538.03, "text": " How much time do you have for a story or how slow is possible?" }, { "start": 1538.03, "end": 1539.03, "text": " What do you mean by how slow?" }, { "start": 1539.03, "end": 1545.27, "text": " Well, first we went like in Butterclown on Friday and then the next piece of the piece" }, { "start": 1545.27, "end": 1546.79, "text": " from the Economist was on Saturday." }, { "start": 1546.79, "end": 1547.79, "text": " So this is one day." }, { "start": 1547.79, "end": 1548.79, "text": " Yes." }, { "start": 1548.79, "end": 1553.91, "text": " So yes, we got a piece up within a couple of hours, I think, which is not very fast by" }, { "start": 1553.91, "end": 1556.55, "text": " the standards of Reuters or whatever." }, { "start": 1556.55, "end": 1560.75, "text": " But yes, we got a basic piece up and I think we probably updated it a couple of times." }, { "start": 1560.75, "end": 1565.07, "text": " But we quickly realized that just constantly adding updates to it and it was a really good" }, { "start": 1565.07, "end": 1566.83, "text": " example of that." }, { "start": 1566.83, "end": 1569.99, "text": " That was just, there was no point in doing that." }, { "start": 1569.99, "end": 1576.11, "text": " People were not coming to us for the latest updates on the death toll or whatever." }, { "start": 1576.11, "end": 1581.07, "text": " And so I think we added an editor's note at the top, update, the death toll has now risen" }, { "start": 1581.07, "end": 1585.31, "text": " to this now that the building has been stormed or whatever." }, { "start": 1585.31, "end": 1592.87, "text": " So we sort of press pause or press stop on continuing to update the story because that's" }, { "start": 1592.87, "end": 1595.51, "text": " not where we can add the most value." }, { "start": 1595.51, "end": 1601.71, "text": " So yeah, generally, if there's big news and we haven't got something prepared, then we" }, { "start": 1601.71, "end": 1606.99, "text": " will think that getting something up in three or four hours is acceptable, usually because" }, { "start": 1606.99, "end": 1611.15, "text": " there will be, it won't just be a straight news piece, there will be some analysis in" }, { "start": 1611.15, "end": 1613.63, "text": " there as well." }, { "start": 1613.63, "end": 1619.23, "text": " And then very often the amount of analysis will go up in the piece that finally ends up" }, { "start": 1619.23, "end": 1622.95, "text": " in the weekly or we may publish subsequent analysis pieces." }, { "start": 1622.95, "end": 1628.79, "text": " So yes, we're really not trying to compete with the newswires." }, { "start": 1628.79, "end": 1634.19, "text": " And I know that other news organizations, how quickly you get your news alert out, your" }, { "start": 1634.19, "end": 1636.55, "text": " push alert and how many clicks you can get people." }, { "start": 1636.55, "end": 1638.83, "text": " So we're not really playing that game." }, { "start": 1638.83, "end": 1645.15, "text": " How long is the life cycle of an article or how long does it stay on the homepage?" }, { "start": 1645.15, "end": 1646.15, "text": " That's a very good question." }, { "start": 1646.15, "end": 1647.55, "text": " There isn't a fixed answer." }, { "start": 1647.55, "end": 1652.79, "text": " If something, I mean, most pieces that run in the weekly and there are something like" }, { "start": 1652.79, "end": 1658.35, "text": " probably 60 or 70 pieces in the weekly, maybe a bit more than that, but certainly less than" }, { "start": 1658.35, "end": 1660.27, "text": " 100." }, { "start": 1660.27, "end": 1663.43, "text": " Most pieces will get some sort of appearance on the homepage." }, { "start": 1663.43, "end": 1667.35, "text": " But what, so they may only be there for half a day." }, { "start": 1667.35, "end": 1672.23, "text": " But what we find is that pieces that are particularly popular or do particularly well can stay there" }, { "start": 1672.23, "end": 1674.19, "text": " for a lot longer." }, { "start": 1674.19, "end": 1679.95, "text": " And so occasionally we will have pieces, we've had many pieces like this with the war in" }, { "start": 1679.95, "end": 1685.43, "text": " Ukraine where people are particularly interested in reading about the state of the Russian" }, { "start": 1685.43, "end": 1687.55, "text": " army or whatever." }, { "start": 1687.55, "end": 1693.39, "text": " And so those pieces, if people are still interested in them, we'll leave them up." }, { "start": 1693.39, "end": 1697.39, "text": " So in that respect, we are paying attention to what our audience is doing." }, { "start": 1697.39, "end": 1703.71, "text": " We're not taking our audience's behavior as a signal about what we should write more" }, { "start": 1703.71, "end": 1709.67, "text": " about because one of the things that's happening is that our readers are essentially paying" }, { "start": 1709.67, "end": 1712.43, "text": " us to tell them what's important." }, { "start": 1712.43, "end": 1716.35, "text": " So what we can't do is take their money and then say, well, we don't actually know what's" }, { "start": 1716.35, "end": 1720.71, "text": " important, but we'll just look at what you're clicking on to do more of that because that" }, { "start": 1720.71, "end": 1721.79, "text": " doesn't really help anyone." }, { "start": 1721.79, "end": 1724.51, "text": " You just get more articles about Elon Musk and electric cars, right?" }, { "start": 1724.51, "end": 1728.43, "text": " Because that's what everyone or Apple, that's what everyone wants to click on." }, { "start": 1728.43, "end": 1732.43, "text": " And if we say, well, actually, we need to be paying attention to what's happening in" }, { "start": 1732.43, "end": 1738.11, "text": " Venezuela or whatever, that's a useful service we provide to our readers, which is to alert" }, { "start": 1738.11, "end": 1742.11, "text": " them to things that they didn't know they needed to know about or they didn't know they" }, { "start": 1742.11, "end": 1744.19, "text": " would find interesting." }, { "start": 1744.19, "end": 1750.59, "text": " So we don't use analytics to decide what to write about, but we do use analytics to decide" }, { "start": 1750.59, "end": 1752.67, "text": " what to feature and what to promote." }, { "start": 1752.67, "end": 1755.07, "text": " So what do we put in our newsletters?" }, { "start": 1755.07, "end": 1758.55, "text": " What do we put on social media or we promote on social media?" }, { "start": 1758.55, "end": 1761.31, "text": " What do we put on the homepage or keep on the homepage for longer?" }, { "start": 1761.31, "end": 1764.75, "text": " And that is interesting to see, oh, this seems to be working well, people seem to be interested" }, { "start": 1764.75, "end": 1765.75, "text": " in that." }, { "start": 1765.75, "end": 1770.59, "text": " But we don't then say, right, let's go and do loads more pieces like that so that we" }, { "start": 1770.59, "end": 1774.03, "text": " gather more clicks because ultimately, that's not our model." }, { "start": 1774.03, "end": 1777.19, "text": " Our model is a subscription-based model." }, { "start": 1777.19, "end": 1784.03, "text": " And so we need to be aware of what our readers are finding interesting and it can help other" }, { "start": 1784.03, "end": 1788.43, "text": " readers find those pieces, but it doesn't change what we actually write about." }, { "start": 1788.43, "end": 1794.75, "text": " Our listeners have the opportunity to ask questions to our podcast followers." }, { "start": 1794.75, "end": 1798.59, "text": " This has sent us the 22-year-old Katharina from Graz." }, { "start": 1798.59, "end": 1804.07, "text": " I think it's very important to be able to say my opinion because in economics there are" }, { "start": 1804.07, "end": 1806.19, "text": " no commentaries under these articles." }, { "start": 1806.19, "end": 1808.07, "text": " Why is that actually so?" }, { "start": 1808.07, "end": 1811.55, "text": " And how do you keep contact with your readers?" }, { "start": 1811.55, "end": 1818.43, "text": " Why does it so? Because when it comes to readers, that you don't have a commentary section." }, { "start": 1818.43, "end": 1819.43, "text": " What do you mean by commentary?" }, { "start": 1819.43, "end": 1820.95, "text": " Oh, we don't have comments at the bottom." }, { "start": 1820.95, "end": 1821.95, "text": " Yeah." }, { "start": 1821.95, "end": 1822.95, "text": " Yes." }, { "start": 1822.95, "end": 1823.95, "text": " You don't have?" }, { "start": 1823.95, "end": 1824.95, "text": " No." }, { "start": 1824.95, "end": 1829.15, "text": " Well, I mean, we did for a while, for quite a long while, and many publications have switched" }, { "start": 1829.15, "end": 1832.63, "text": " off their comment sections." }, { "start": 1832.63, "end": 1833.99, "text": " And it's for a variety of reasons." }, { "start": 1833.99, "end": 1836.67, "text": " In our case, it was partly technical." }, { "start": 1836.67, "end": 1842.79, "text": " We were having a great deal of difficulty preventing spam comments, basically, and it" }, { "start": 1842.79, "end": 1846.83, "text": " was just becoming more and more technically difficult to stop them because the system" }, { "start": 1846.83, "end": 1850.07, "text": " that we were using under the hood is quite antiquated." }, { "start": 1850.07, "end": 1853.67, "text": " And we have that still in the process of turning it off." }, { "start": 1853.67, "end": 1860.51, "text": " But it meant that investing to prevent spam comments meant investing in an old platform" }, { "start": 1860.51, "end": 1861.79, "text": " that we want to turn off." }, { "start": 1861.79, "end": 1863.55, "text": " So I have to confess that was part of the reason." }, { "start": 1863.55, "end": 1869.99, "text": " But the other reason, I think generally, was that there's been a broader shift away from" }, { "start": 1869.99, "end": 1876.35, "text": " allowing commenting just because it can be so toxic, it can expose you to legal risk." }, { "start": 1876.35, "end": 1881.27, "text": " And I think the approach that many publications take now, which I have a lot of respect for" }, { "start": 1881.27, "end": 1886.83, "text": " and I would be very happy to see us adopt in future once it's technically possible," }, { "start": 1886.83, "end": 1889.91, "text": " is to allow comments on some articles." }, { "start": 1889.91, "end": 1891.27, "text": " And so you see this with the New York Times." }, { "start": 1891.27, "end": 1893.99, "text": " They switch on comments on certain articles." }, { "start": 1893.99, "end": 1899.59, "text": " And then that way, you can really concentrate your moderating resources on those pieces" }, { "start": 1899.59, "end": 1902.63, "text": " and make sure you get a really high level discussion." }, { "start": 1902.63, "end": 1906.15, "text": " And some of the other things that New York Times does as well, where they invite comments" }, { "start": 1906.15, "end": 1908.03, "text": " by email and then they publish a selection." }, { "start": 1908.03, "end": 1910.63, "text": " So I think there are good ways of doing this." }, { "start": 1910.63, "end": 1914.91, "text": " The other thing that happened, of course, is that a lot of that discussion moved onto" }, { "start": 1914.91, "end": 1917.79, "text": " social media platforms." }, { "start": 1917.79, "end": 1923.31, "text": " And so expecting people to discuss the article on your website, when in fact they were going" }, { "start": 1923.31, "end": 1928.27, "text": " to be talking about it on Facebook or Twitter or whatever, started to look a bit behind" }, { "start": 1928.27, "end": 1929.27, "text": " the time." }, { "start": 1929.27, "end": 1936.91, "text": " So I think the heyday of the comment section from 2008 to 2013 or '14 or something is probably," }, { "start": 1936.91, "end": 1939.43, "text": " yes, I can't remember when we switched ours off." }, { "start": 1939.43, "end": 1944.95, "text": " But I think that was a period in internet history where things worked in a particular" }, { "start": 1944.95, "end": 1946.95, "text": " way and things have moved on." }, { "start": 1946.95, "end": 1951.91, "text": " So I think, yeah, there are good ways to do comments and to have discussions, but you" }, { "start": 1951.91, "end": 1956.71, "text": " really do have to moderate them carefully." }, { "start": 1956.71, "end": 1967.11, "text": " And also, if a discussion starts off with a good polite tone and high degree of sort" }, { "start": 1967.11, "end": 1974.51, "text": " of, well, in particular, if you get journalists themselves to weigh in early in a discussion," }, { "start": 1974.51, "end": 1980.39, "text": " that many people have found that really improves the quality of the subsequent discussion." }, { "start": 1980.39, "end": 1988.15, "text": " So there are these ways to ensure that you can get a useful and informative discussion." }, { "start": 1988.15, "end": 1989.59, "text": " The problem is they don't scale." }, { "start": 1989.59, "end": 1992.09, "text": " You can't do them on every single article." }, { "start": 1992.09, "end": 1995.83, "text": " So I think deciding where to do them is a way to do it." }, { "start": 1995.83, "end": 2000.95, "text": " And we have other ways of having discussions with our subscribers now as well." }, { "start": 2000.95, "end": 2005.79, "text": " We do a weekly subscriber webinar, which is only for subscribers, where a group of editors" }, { "start": 2005.79, "end": 2009.95, "text": " talks about something in the news that week and we take questions from the subscribers" }, { "start": 2009.95, "end": 2010.95, "text": " as well." }, { "start": 2010.95, "end": 2012.03, "text": " And that's proving very popular." }, { "start": 2012.03, "end": 2017.15, "text": " So I think being able to discuss things with your audience is useful, but how you do that" }, { "start": 2017.15, "end": 2020.43, "text": " is constantly evolving." }, { "start": 2020.43, "end": 2024.75, "text": " We talked about that media is changing from a print to online." }, { "start": 2024.75, "end": 2027.31, "text": " How does that change your workflow?" }, { "start": 2027.31, "end": 2031.83, "text": " Which factors decide if a story is a video text podcast or will be published in print?" }, { "start": 2031.83, "end": 2035.43, "text": " Well, there isn't a single answer to that." }, { "start": 2035.43, "end": 2039.23, "text": " So we do have an audio, we make several podcasts." }, { "start": 2039.23, "end": 2043.11, "text": " So we have a daily podcast called The Intelligence, and then we have several weekly podcasts as" }, { "start": 2043.11, "end": 2044.11, "text": " well." }, { "start": 2044.11, "end": 2046.31, "text": " And we also do podcast series on the side." }, { "start": 2046.31, "end": 2052.95, "text": " And so in those cases, the producers of those podcasts are working closely with the newsroom" }, { "start": 2052.95, "end": 2060.47, "text": " to not just do discussions about articles we published, but very often to preempt those" }, { "start": 2060.47, "end": 2061.47, "text": " articles." }, { "start": 2061.47, "end": 2064.27, "text": " If there's news on a particular day, yes, we'll cover it, but we'll also discuss it" }, { "start": 2064.27, "end": 2066.27, "text": " in a podcast." }, { "start": 2066.27, "end": 2070.79, "text": " Films is, you know, videos a bit harder because the turnaround time is, for the sorts of video" }, { "start": 2070.79, "end": 2074.67, "text": " we make is not quite as quick as it is for audio." }, { "start": 2074.67, "end": 2080.51, "text": " And then we have the audio edition, which is the audio versions of all of our articles" }, { "start": 2080.51, "end": 2088.35, "text": " in the weekly, and they're read out by still by actual humans, by retired newsreaders for" }, { "start": 2088.35, "end": 2089.35, "text": " the most part." }, { "start": 2089.35, "end": 2091.75, "text": " And that's a very popular feature for us." }, { "start": 2091.75, "end": 2096.31, "text": " But yes, I mean, there is this broader question of how do all of those different media types" }, { "start": 2096.31, "end": 2097.31, "text": " fit together?" }, { "start": 2097.31, "end": 2099.79, "text": " And like everybody else, we're continuing to experiment." }, { "start": 2099.79, "end": 2104.71, "text": " I think we've got, you know, we figured out what our voice sounds like in podcasts, and" }, { "start": 2104.71, "end": 2106.91, "text": " we figured out what it sounds like in video." }, { "start": 2106.91, "end": 2113.67, "text": " But at the end of the day, I think written journalism is still central to what we do" }, { "start": 2113.67, "end": 2118.27, "text": " because going back, I keep saying this, you know, the deal we have with our readers is" }, { "start": 2118.27, "end": 2124.99, "text": " roughly they pay us money to save them time to figure out what's important this week and" }, { "start": 2124.99, "end": 2126.75, "text": " what they should make of it." }, { "start": 2126.75, "end": 2133.39, "text": " And the quickest way to absorb a lot of information about a complex subject is still to read words" }, { "start": 2133.39, "end": 2135.55, "text": " on a page or on a screen." }, { "start": 2135.55, "end": 2140.63, "text": " And you know, in theory, video gives you much higher bandwidth, but in practice, actually" }, { "start": 2140.63, "end": 2144.35, "text": " absorbing information quickly is it's best done just by reading." }, { "start": 2144.35, "end": 2148.19, "text": " Now that could change and we could have brain implants in the future or I don't know what," }, { "start": 2148.19, "end": 2153.03, "text": " in which case we would have to, you know, adapt the way we deliver our journalism." }, { "start": 2153.03, "end": 2155.95, "text": " And we already deliver it in lots of different ways on lots of different platforms." }, { "start": 2155.95, "end": 2161.75, "text": " So, you know, we think that what we provide, which is the expertise of our journalists," }, { "start": 2161.75, "end": 2165.43, "text": " we'll still work on other platforms that emerge." }, { "start": 2165.43, "end": 2170.67, "text": " But at the moment, the best way to deliver on our promise, which is we have busy readers," }, { "start": 2170.67, "end": 2173.71, "text": " busy subscribers who want to know what's going on, they want to understand the world, they" }, { "start": 2173.71, "end": 2175.07, "text": " don't have much time." }, { "start": 2175.07, "end": 2178.59, "text": " We think that reading is still the main way to do that." }, { "start": 2178.59, "end": 2182.67, "text": " And yes, you can supplement that with audio and video and other things and interactive" }, { "start": 2182.67, "end": 2183.99, "text": " graphics and so on as well." }, { "start": 2183.99, "end": 2189.03, "text": " But at the end of the day, that's still the centerpiece of our output." }, { "start": 2189.03, "end": 2190.03, "text": " How do we do it?" }, { "start": 2190.03, "end": 2195.27, "text": " Is all online articles going print or all print artists go online?" }, { "start": 2195.27, "end": 2200.31, "text": " All print articles go online and then there are additional online only things like a daily" }, { "start": 2200.31, "end": 2204.59, "text": " chart like explainers, like additional news updates in between." }, { "start": 2204.59, "end": 2208.83, "text": " Sometimes you'll get an early version of a story or a news version of story that runs" }, { "start": 2208.83, "end": 2213.83, "text": " on digital platforms and then an updated version of it appears in print or other times a print" }, { "start": 2213.83, "end": 2217.11, "text": " story will run online and then we'll update that." }, { "start": 2217.11, "end": 2222.11, "text": " But we tend to, we don't, we don't know to update stories because, you know, where do" }, { "start": 2222.11, "end": 2223.79, "text": " you stop doing it?" }, { "start": 2223.79, "end": 2227.71, "text": " And then obviously all of our audio and video output is digital only." }, { "start": 2227.71, "end": 2233.39, "text": " So, so yes, everything you see in print runs online, but not everything you see online will" }, { "start": 2233.39, "end": 2235.79, "text": " necessarily have appeared or will appear in print." }, { "start": 2235.79, "end": 2245.95, "text": " What did we find in our archive on the subject of media?" }, { "start": 2245.95, "end": 2251.07, "text": " In Austria, 1867 with the state constitution the press freedom was introduced." }, { "start": 2251.07, "end": 2257.19, "text": " The Vienna newspaper printed the law on December 22, 1867 on its title page." }, { "start": 2257.19, "end": 2265.07, "text": " Under article 13 it says, \"Every man has the right to express his opinion within the" }, { "start": 2265.07, "end": 2267.67, "text": " legislative framework freely through word, written, print or by image." }, { "start": 2267.67, "end": 2272.47, "text": " The press is not allowed to be restricted under censorship, but through the concession system.\"" }, { "start": 2273.47, "end": 2276.23, "text": " What do you think when you, when you look in the future in the next five years?" }, { "start": 2276.23, "end": 2281.95, "text": " So what has asked what we're talking about in the beginning that many media outlets are" }, { "start": 2281.95, "end": 2283.27, "text": " struggling now?" }, { "start": 2283.27, "end": 2288.59, "text": " Will people continue to read newspapers or what will be the future of media?" }, { "start": 2288.59, "end": 2294.19, "text": " Well, I've been saying for quite a long time that I thought that the, the business model" }, { "start": 2294.19, "end": 2300.07, "text": " of news, digital only news organizations that were sustained entirely by advertising was" }, { "start": 2300.07, "end": 2305.51, "text": " very precarious and I didn't, I didn't think there was a good long-term future there." }, { "start": 2305.51, "end": 2310.39, "text": " And just in the past few months we've seen, you know, Vice has gone bankrupt, Buzzfeed" }, { "start": 2310.39, "end": 2312.31, "text": " has shut down its news organizations." }, { "start": 2312.31, "end": 2315.39, "text": " I should say, you know, this isn't, this is, I've been making this prediction for a long" }, { "start": 2315.39, "end": 2316.39, "text": " time." }, { "start": 2316.39, "end": 2317.39, "text": " I wish this wasn't true." }, { "start": 2317.39, "end": 2322.47, "text": " Both Vice and Buzzfeed News did really excellent journalism." }, { "start": 2322.47, "end": 2329.79, "text": " And you know, but the problem is that just relying on digital ads is not enough to fund" }, { "start": 2329.79, "end": 2330.79, "text": " a newsroom." }, { "start": 2330.79, "end": 2333.27, "text": " And, and that is, that's difficult." }, { "start": 2333.27, "end": 2337.59, "text": " And the other thing is that they tried various other models like video and so on." }, { "start": 2337.59, "end": 2344.35, "text": " Ultimately, when you've got big technology platforms that sit between you and the readers," }, { "start": 2344.35, "end": 2348.91, "text": " whether that's Google search engine or Facebook or Twitter's algorithm, then you are in a" }, { "start": 2348.91, "end": 2353.15, "text": " precarious position because changes to those algorithms can really affect your business" }, { "start": 2353.15, "end": 2354.15, "text": " model." }, { "start": 2354.15, "end": 2357.55, "text": " And so, so what we've been saying for a long time, and this has been our model, and we're" }, { "start": 2357.55, "end": 2363.55, "text": " facing more and more news organizations move to this model is that when you have a subscription" }, { "start": 2363.55, "end": 2369.19, "text": " based model and, and people pay you directly for the journalism, and you deliver it directly" }, { "start": 2369.19, "end": 2373.59, "text": " to them through your website and through your app, and there is nobody else in the middle," }, { "start": 2373.59, "end": 2375.47, "text": " we think that is a much more sustainable model." }, { "start": 2375.47, "end": 2381.31, "text": " Now, the problem with that is, is that not everybody can afford to subscribe to all of" }, { "start": 2381.31, "end": 2382.43, "text": " these publications." }, { "start": 2382.43, "end": 2384.35, "text": " And so what do you do about that?" }, { "start": 2384.35, "end": 2389.83, "text": " And so I think there's a place for public service broadcasting, that's part of it." }, { "start": 2389.83, "end": 2392.11, "text": " And I think there's also, you know, there are some other interesting models." }, { "start": 2392.11, "end": 2395.63, "text": " If you look at what the Guardian has done, for example, I subscribe to the Guardian," }, { "start": 2395.63, "end": 2397.35, "text": " so I pay to read the Guardian." }, { "start": 2397.35, "end": 2398.55, "text": " I used to work at the Guardian." }, { "start": 2398.55, "end": 2403.95, "text": " It's a, you know, it's a great British journalist institution that I want to survive." }, { "start": 2403.95, "end": 2409.75, "text": " But its business model for many years has been that everything on its website is free." }, { "start": 2409.75, "end": 2413.07, "text": " And you know, therefore, they were dependent on advertising." }, { "start": 2413.07, "end": 2417.63, "text": " They found this middle way where they basically make subscribing optional." }, { "start": 2417.63, "end": 2421.75, "text": " So you can choose to pay them if you want, and you get some, you know, you get improved" }, { "start": 2421.75, "end": 2423.67, "text": " access through that app and this sort of thing." }, { "start": 2423.67, "end": 2429.51, "text": " And they also had a kind of, you know, donation tip jar where you could just make a contribution" }, { "start": 2429.51, "end": 2430.51, "text": " to the Guardian." }, { "start": 2430.51, "end": 2434.63, "text": " I was quite skeptical that that would work, but it has worked." }, { "start": 2434.63, "end": 2439.91, "text": " So I think there may be some other models that we need to explore, but I think the long" }, { "start": 2439.91, "end": 2446.55, "text": " and short of it is that an entirely advertising-based model is extremely precarious." }, { "start": 2446.55, "end": 2449.95, "text": " And so I expect to see less of that." }, { "start": 2449.95, "end": 2455.39, "text": " And I expect to see more emphasis, even more emphasis than we've seen on subscription models." }, { "start": 2455.39, "end": 2460.75, "text": " And then the other model that we've seen more of lately is the philanthropically supported" }, { "start": 2460.75, "end": 2461.75, "text": " news organization." }, { "start": 2461.75, "end": 2468.79, "text": " So something like ProPublica, where essentially you've got philanthropy supporting investigative" }, { "start": 2468.79, "end": 2469.79, "text": " journalism." }, { "start": 2469.79, "end": 2473.99, "text": " And I think it's good that we've seen that and we've seen, you know, some of the big," }, { "start": 2473.99, "end": 2480.99, "text": " you know, foundations and tech entrepreneurs investing in separately in journalism because" }, { "start": 2480.99, "end": 2482.99, "text": " it's something they want to see survive." }, { "start": 2482.99, "end": 2488.95, "text": " So I think, again, we're going to see more of that, more people basically stepping up" }, { "start": 2488.95, "end": 2492.27, "text": " to fund journalism, which is otherwise not going to happen." }, { "start": 2492.27, "end": 2495.99, "text": " Tom, thank you very much for your insights." }, { "start": 2495.99, "end": 2496.99, "text": " Thank you." }, { "start": 2496.99, "end": 2497.99, "text": " Okay." }, { "start": 2497.99, "end": 2506.99, "text": " Today we were at the guest at the British Business Magazine Economist in London." }, { "start": 2506.99, "end": 2511.27, "text": " We've learned from breaking news not always about success, which stories are liked to be" }, { "start": 2511.27, "end": 2513.59, "text": " read and how long it will take to give." }, { "start": 2513.59, "end": 2515.59, "text": " I thank you for listening." }, { "start": 2515.59, "end": 2516.59, "text": " Until next time." }, { "start": 2516.59, "end": 2526.15, "text": " That was today's episode of \"Walter gedacht, der Podcast der Witzheit\"." }, { "start": 2526.15, "end": 2530.99, "text": " If you liked it, subscribe to this podcast, follow us on Instagram and TikTok and look" }, { "start": 2530.99, "end": 2533.47, "text": " at our website wz.at." }, { "start": 2533.47, "end": 2536.87, "text": " Do you have any questions or suggestions for our next episodes?" }, { "start": 2536.87, "end": 2539.31, "text": " Then send us a message via WhatsApp." }, { "start": 2539.31, "end": 2545.03, "text": " Our number is 06648348344." }, { "start": 2545.03, "end": 2556.63, "text": "." }, { "start": 2556.63, "end": 2558.63, "text": " (chimes)" }, { "start": 2558.63, "end": 2560.79, "text": " [MUSIC PLAYING]" } ]