[
  {
    "start": 0.0,
    "end": 8.56,
    "text": " Nobody wants to get sick and so they kind of pretend that aging is somehow special,"
  },
  {
    "start": 8.56,
    "end": 14.24,
    "text": " that it's somehow distinct from the so-called diseases of aging, which it isn't. There's no"
  },
  {
    "start": 14.24,
    "end": 20.8,
    "text": " biological difference between the so-called diseases of aging and aging itself. There's no"
  },
  {
    "start": 20.8,
    "end": 26.08,
    "text": " social thing as aging itself. Welcome to HealthWise, the health and longevity podcast brought to you"
  },
  {
    "start": 26.08,
    "end": 31.84,
    "text": " by Sunday Natural. I'm Nils Berens and in this podcast we explore what it truly means to be"
  },
  {
    "start": 31.84,
    "end": 38.16,
    "text": " healthy. Together we will dive into topics such as medicine, exercise, nutrition and emotional"
  },
  {
    "start": 38.16,
    "end": 45.6,
    "text": " well-being, always with a wise perspective on what generally benefits us. My guest today is"
  },
  {
    "start": 45.6,
    "end": 51.76,
    "text": " Orphe de Grey, a well-renowned biojewron-toll logist and a visionary in the field of longevity"
  },
  {
    "start": 51.76,
    "end": 57.68,
    "text": " research. He is best known for his groundbreaking approach as to reversing aging and his belief"
  },
  {
    "start": 57.68,
    "end": 64.08,
    "text": " that aging could soon be treatable. As the co-founder of the S.E.N.S. Research Foundation,"
  },
  {
    "start": 64.08,
    "end": 70.0,
    "text": " he dedicates his life to exploring how we can significantly extend human life and overcome"
  },
  {
    "start": 70.0,
    "end": 75.36,
    "text": " age-related diseases. And so I say a warm welcome to Orphe de Grey. Hi there, thank you for having me."
  },
  {
    "start": 75.36,
    "end": 80.96,
    "text": " Dear Orphe, how does a perfect Sunday look like for you? Perfect Sunday. Perfect Sunday."
  },
  {
    "start": 81.68,
    "end": 88.64,
    "text": " A perfect Sunday is a day when I am not traveling and I am just able to stare at the sky from my"
  },
  {
    "start": 88.64,
    "end": 94.8,
    "text": " hot tub at home. Okay, sounds very good. So when did you first realize that aging isn't necessary"
  },
  {
    "start": 94.8,
    "end": 103.6,
    "text": " inevitable? Well, the thing is I didn't really have a time when I realized that because nobody"
  },
  {
    "start": 103.6,
    "end": 109.44,
    "text": " ever told me that it wasn't treatable, that it was inevitable. You know, it had always been obvious"
  },
  {
    "start": 109.44,
    "end": 117.92,
    "text": " to me that the human body is a machine which accumulates damage like any other machine and"
  },
  {
    "start": 117.92,
    "end": 125.44,
    "text": " that this damage can be repaired. And if you do so, then you extend the functioning lifespan of"
  },
  {
    "start": 125.44,
    "end": 131.76,
    "text": " the machine, just like getting the rust off a car every so often before the doors fall off."
  },
  {
    "start": 131.76,
    "end": 138.88,
    "text": " And the thing I didn't realize was that other people didn't think that way."
  },
  {
    "start": 138.88,
    "end": 146.8,
    "text": " I only found out in my 30, well, around the age of 30 that most people viewed aging as this kind of"
  },
  {
    "start": 146.8,
    "end": 153.28,
    "text": " mystery that was kind of woven into the fabric of the universe and there was nothing we could do"
  },
  {
    "start": 153.28,
    "end": 160.96,
    "text": " about it. And that was a huge surprise to me because it was obviously not true and yet perfectly"
  },
  {
    "start": 160.96,
    "end": 166.08,
    "text": " intelligent, knowledgeable people seem to think it. That's really interesting. So how would you"
  },
  {
    "start": 166.08,
    "end": 170.32,
    "text": " explain your concept of reversing aging to someone who never heard of your work?"
  },
  {
    "start": 170.32,
    "end": 177.68,
    "text": " So the best, the simplest way to explain the way that I think we're going to bring aging under"
  },
  {
    "start": 177.68,
    "end": 184.88,
    "text": " medical control is to actually continue with this analogy that I just gave about remembering"
  },
  {
    "start": 184.88,
    "end": 192.24,
    "text": " that the human body is a machine. So if we look at cars or airplanes or whatever, then they have a"
  },
  {
    "start": 192.24,
    "end": 198.32,
    "text": " warranty period. There's an amount of time that they are guaranteed to last for. But we know that"
  },
  {
    "start": 198.32,
    "end": 204.08,
    "text": " some cars are working just as well as when they were built, even though they are 10 times older"
  },
  {
    "start": 204.08,
    "end": 211.6,
    "text": " than their warranty period, like more than 100 years old. And that's because if you use a machine,"
  },
  {
    "start": 211.6,
    "end": 217.36,
    "text": " it accumulates damage as a consequence of its normal operation, but the machine is set up to"
  },
  {
    "start": 217.36,
    "end": 222.48,
    "text": " tolerate a certain amount of that damage without any declining function. It's only when there's"
  },
  {
    "start": 222.48,
    "end": 227.36,
    "text": " more damage than that certain amount that you have a problem, that things start to not work so well."
  },
  {
    "start": 227.36,
    "end": 236.56,
    "text": " So if you do preventative maintenance, if you just repair that damage and maintain and restore"
  },
  {
    "start": 236.56,
    "end": 243.44,
    "text": " the structure and composition of the machine to how it was when it was first constructed,"
  },
  {
    "start": 243.44,
    "end": 249.6,
    "text": " then it'll carry on working. The definition of a machine really is that its function is determined"
  },
  {
    "start": 249.6,
    "end": 253.92,
    "text": " by its structure. So if we come to the human body, you know, it's a really, really, really"
  },
  {
    "start": 253.92,
    "end": 259.12,
    "text": " complicated machine, but it's still a machine. And it accumulates damage as a consequence of its"
  },
  {
    "start": 259.12,
    "end": 268.08,
    "text": " normal operation. And if we can figure out a panel of treatments of medicines that can repair that"
  },
  {
    "start": 268.08,
    "end": 274.8,
    "text": " damage and restore the body at the molecular level and the cellular level to something like how it"
  },
  {
    "start": 274.8,
    "end": 281.04,
    "text": " was as a young adult, then that will stop us from going downhill, from getting sick as a result of"
  },
  {
    "start": 281.04,
    "end": 287.52,
    "text": " having been born a long time ago. That's the entire idea, really. And of course, the only reason it's"
  },
  {
    "start": 287.52,
    "end": 293.44,
    "text": " a sensible idea is because one can actually describe what it means in practice. One can describe"
  },
  {
    "start": 293.44,
    "end": 299.44,
    "text": " what changes occur to the structure and composition of the human body during adult life,"
  },
  {
    "start": 299.44,
    "end": 306.96,
    "text": " and therefore what one has to repair. And I was able to do that 25 years ago, almost,"
  },
  {
    "start": 306.96,
    "end": 314.4,
    "text": " pretty thoroughly because people have been studying aging for a long time. So we already knew"
  },
  {
    "start": 314.4,
    "end": 323.04,
    "text": " what changes occurred. The place where some innovation was needed was to develop ideas for"
  },
  {
    "start": 323.04,
    "end": 327.52,
    "text": " how we might repair some of that damage. There were some types of damage, like, for example,"
  },
  {
    "start": 327.52,
    "end": 333.84,
    "text": " cells dying and not being replaced by the division of other cells, that people already"
  },
  {
    "start": 333.84,
    "end": 338.0,
    "text": " understood, you know, you can use stem cell therapy to repair that kind of damage. But there"
  },
  {
    "start": 338.0,
    "end": 342.72,
    "text": " are other ones where I had to come up with whole new ways to repair the damage. Okay, excellent,"
  },
  {
    "start": 342.72,
    "end": 347.44,
    "text": " excellent. There are many skeptics when it comes to longevity research. How do you respond to the"
  },
  {
    "start": 347.44,
    "end": 354.0,
    "text": " biggest critics of your work? Well, there are not so many skeptics as they used to be. When I"
  },
  {
    "start": 354.0,
    "end": 358.16,
    "text": " started talking about all of this, first of all, I had to convince my colleagues in the academic"
  },
  {
    "start": 358.16,
    "end": 365.76,
    "text": " community, and this whole idea of damage repair was a big paradigm shift. Before then, people were"
  },
  {
    "start": 365.76,
    "end": 373.44,
    "text": " focused only on the possibility of slowing aging down, not of reversing it. And so that I had to"
  },
  {
    "start": 373.44,
    "end": 377.76,
    "text": " work quite hard to persuade my colleagues that this was a sensible way to think. That took maybe"
  },
  {
    "start": 377.76,
    "end": 384.96,
    "text": " 10 years. But in the mid-2000s, I guess, I started to come to the attention of the wider world and"
  },
  {
    "start": 384.96,
    "end": 390.48,
    "text": " started, you know, getting a lot of media attention and so on. And then, absolutely, there was a lot"
  },
  {
    "start": 390.48,
    "end": 396.16,
    "text": " of criticism from non-scientists, non-biologists, people who didn't really understand what I was"
  },
  {
    "start": 396.16,
    "end": 403.28,
    "text": " saying at all, but that didn't stop them from criticizing it. And of course, I was ready for"
  },
  {
    "start": 403.28,
    "end": 412.56,
    "text": " that. It wasn't in any way surprising. But it's just part of the job. If people don't know what"
  },
  {
    "start": 412.56,
    "end": 416.56,
    "text": " they're criticizing, but they criticize anyway, then you just have to be patient and explain to"
  },
  {
    "start": 416.56,
    "end": 421.92,
    "text": " them why they're wrong. You talk often about the seven deadly signs of aging. Could you briefly"
  },
  {
    "start": 421.92,
    "end": 428.88,
    "text": " explain what these are and why they are so crucial? Yeah, right. So as I was mentioning earlier, the"
  },
  {
    "start": 428.88,
    "end": 435.52,
    "text": " human body is a really, really complicated machine. And so the changes that happen in the body, the"
  },
  {
    "start": 435.52,
    "end": 440.48,
    "text": " things that are the underlying drivers of aging, these changes, there are lots and lots and lots"
  },
  {
    "start": 440.48,
    "end": 449.44,
    "text": " and lots of them. But it turned out to be useful to, if you like, classify these changes into a"
  },
  {
    "start": 449.44,
    "end": 456.0,
    "text": " manageable number of categories. And the reason that's useful is because it helps us to organize"
  },
  {
    "start": 457.28,
    "end": 462.48,
    "text": " the process of developing medicines that are going to be required to fix this thing."
  },
  {
    "start": 462.48,
    "end": 469.84,
    "text": " So I mentioned loss of cells a minute ago. So this is like, obviously, the body is made of a"
  },
  {
    "start": 469.84,
    "end": 478.16,
    "text": " lot of cells, like 30 trillion cells or something like that. And cells come in different types."
  },
  {
    "start": 478.16,
    "end": 485.2,
    "text": " Some of those cells just sit there and don't divide like brain cells, neurons. And that's kind of,"
  },
  {
    "start": 485.2,
    "end": 493.6,
    "text": " like, sometimes they die, but not very often. Some cells are very much more short lived, like the"
  },
  {
    "start": 493.6,
    "end": 498.88,
    "text": " cells in the blood, for example, most cells in the blood are very short lived. And they have to be"
  },
  {
    "start": 498.88,
    "end": 505.68,
    "text": " replaced regularly. So we have cells in our bone marrow that are stem cells that divide and"
  },
  {
    "start": 505.68,
    "end": 513.04,
    "text": " replenish the cells that the body is losing all the time, the same in the skin, the same in the"
  },
  {
    "start": 513.04,
    "end": 521.84,
    "text": " lining of the gut. But sometimes we lose those stem cells get depleted. We don't have so many of them"
  },
  {
    "start": 521.84,
    "end": 527.76,
    "text": " in old, old, old ages we did earlier. And the cells that are not replaced, the ones like neurons,"
  },
  {
    "start": 527.76,
    "end": 533.2,
    "text": " for example, they also get depleted. Because sometimes those cells die, and they're not replaced"
  },
  {
    "start": 533.2,
    "end": 539.28,
    "text": " at all. So of course, there's a problem there. Because eventually, after enough cells have died,"
  },
  {
    "start": 539.28,
    "end": 543.12,
    "text": " you're not going to have enough cells for the organing question to do the job."
  },
  {
    "start": 543.12,
    "end": 549.52,
    "text": " So let's take Parkinson's disease, for example. That's a disease of, of course,"
  },
  {
    "start": 549.52,
    "end": 554.08,
    "text": " of neurodegeneration. And it's caused by cell loss. There's a particular type of cell in the"
  },
  {
    "start": 554.08,
    "end": 560.32,
    "text": " brain called a dopaminergic neuron, that we lose them rather rapidly compared to other brain cells."
  },
  {
    "start": 560.32,
    "end": 565.76,
    "text": " And they're not replaced. But the thing is, we have a set an idea for how to fix that,"
  },
  {
    "start": 565.76,
    "end": 570.64,
    "text": " which is stem cell therapy. You can just inject stem cells into the right part of the brain."
  },
  {
    "start": 570.64,
    "end": 576.96,
    "text": " And they will divide and transform to replace the cells that the body is not replacing on its own."
  },
  {
    "start": 576.96,
    "end": 581.52,
    "text": " Okay, so we're not pretty good at that. And there are clinical trials going on"
  },
  {
    "start": 581.52,
    "end": 588.32,
    "text": " to do exactly what I just described. But then the question is, like, are there other cells in"
  },
  {
    "start": 588.32,
    "end": 594.32,
    "text": " the body that are also you need to replace? And of course, there are. But you can do the same kind"
  },
  {
    "start": 594.32,
    "end": 599.12,
    "text": " of thing, not exactly the same thing, but nearly the same thing. You can do stem cell therapy."
  },
  {
    "start": 599.12,
    "end": 605.52,
    "text": " Different stem cell therapies for different cell, different organs have some differences."
  },
  {
    "start": 605.52,
    "end": 610.0,
    "text": " But there are only differences of detail, which means that once you've got stem cell therapy"
  },
  {
    "start": 610.0,
    "end": 615.2,
    "text": " working reasonably well for one or two tissues, you can get the next one working on the one after"
  },
  {
    "start": 615.2,
    "end": 619.04,
    "text": " that much more quickly, much more easily, because you can reuse the knowledge, the expertise that"
  },
  {
    "start": 619.04,
    "end": 624.0,
    "text": " you gained in all the trial and error that you had to go into to get the first one working."
  },
  {
    "start": 624.0,
    "end": 629.12,
    "text": " So that's why this classification is useful. So I had this, these seven deadly things, as you"
  },
  {
    "start": 629.12,
    "end": 636.56,
    "text": " rightly call them. These were categories of types of damage that accumulate in the body."
  },
  {
    "start": 636.56,
    "end": 642.64,
    "text": " And they were for each one, there was this generic approach to doing the fixing. So for the cell,"
  },
  {
    "start": 642.64,
    "end": 650.48,
    "text": " last it was stem cell therapy for waste products that accumulate inside the cell. I had this idea"
  },
  {
    "start": 650.48,
    "end": 654.88,
    "text": " of using genes found in bacteria to break them down, things like that."
  },
  {
    "start": 654.88,
    "end": 662.32,
    "text": " Okay, excellent, excellent. So when you look at the current technologies, which from your point"
  },
  {
    "start": 662.32,
    "end": 667.04,
    "text": " of view is the most promising, you said already stem cells, is this the most promising for you at"
  },
  {
    "start": 667.04,
    "end": 672.56,
    "text": " the moment? There's definitely no one thing that's the most promising. You can't really have that,"
  },
  {
    "start": 672.56,
    "end": 677.68,
    "text": " because we've got all these different types of damage, they need different approaches to fixing"
  },
  {
    "start": 677.68,
    "end": 682.96,
    "text": " them. So all of these things need to be developed and given to the same people at the same time."
  },
  {
    "start": 682.96,
    "end": 688.4,
    "text": " There's no one that's the most important. However, what I will say, and it's very important when we"
  },
  {
    "start": 688.4,
    "end": 691.44,
    "text": " look at biomedical technologies to remember that"
  },
  {
    "start": 691.97,
    "end": 696.97,
    "text": " Aging is not something that we work on in isolation."
  },
  {
    "start": 696.97,
    "end": 701.47,
    "text": " The most useful, many of the most useful technologies"
  },
  {
    "start": 701.47,
    "end": 705.29,
    "text": " that are going to be involved in treating aging"
  },
  {
    "start": 705.29,
    "end": 707.85,
    "text": " in this way and repairing the damage of aging"
  },
  {
    "start": 707.85,
    "end": 712.01,
    "text": " are ones that are equally useful across the whole of medicine,"
  },
  {
    "start": 712.01,
    "end": 713.13,
    "text": " not just aging."
  },
  {
    "start": 713.13,
    "end": 716.81,
    "text": " So for example, CRISPR, which is this way"
  },
  {
    "start": 716.81,
    "end": 721.89,
    "text": " to modify the genome, that's useful for diseases of child"
  },
  {
    "start": 721.89,
    "end": 723.85,
    "text": " who just as it's useful for aging."
  },
  {
    "start": 723.85,
    "end": 726.13,
    "text": " - Excellent, excellent."
  },
  {
    "start": 726.13,
    "end": 730.25,
    "text": " So when you, we are at the moment here now on a conference"
  },
  {
    "start": 730.25,
    "end": 734.01,
    "text": " and we also have seen a lot of many new researchers here."
  },
  {
    "start": 734.01,
    "end": 737.29,
    "text": " And when you look at some of these technologies"
  },
  {
    "start": 737.29,
    "end": 740.53,
    "text": " which are presented in terms of drug discovery"
  },
  {
    "start": 740.53,
    "end": 742.73,
    "text": " and things like that, are there anything"
  },
  {
    "start": 742.73,
    "end": 746.65,
    "text": " which you might see also extremely promising"
  },
  {
    "start": 746.65,
    "end": 747.57,
    "text": " for the future?"
  },
  {
    "start": 747.57,
    "end": 748.41,
    "text": " - Oh, definitely."
  },
  {
    "start": 748.41,
    "end": 751.69,
    "text": " I mean, one of the big things that I always"
  },
  {
    "start": 751.69,
    "end": 754.73,
    "text": " emphasize when I give, well, I get interviews,"
  },
  {
    "start": 754.73,
    "end": 758.97,
    "text": " and also when I give talks is that 20 years ago"
  },
  {
    "start": 758.97,
    "end": 761.89,
    "text": " when I first started talking about the seven deadly things"
  },
  {
    "start": 761.89,
    "end": 765.17,
    "text": " and the way to fix them, I only had one approach"
  },
  {
    "start": 765.17,
    "end": 769.73,
    "text": " for each of the seven types of the categories of damage,"
  },
  {
    "start": 769.73,
    "end": 772.89,
    "text": " one possible way of going about fixing it."
  },
  {
    "start": 772.89,
    "end": 775.61,
    "text": " And now for each of the seven, there are multiple approaches"
  },
  {
    "start": 775.61,
    "end": 776.57,
    "text": " that are out there."
  },
  {
    "start": 776.57,
    "end": 779.57,
    "text": " So for example, cell loss, that we were talking about earlier,"
  },
  {
    "start": 780.45,
    "end": 782.57,
    "text": " we had stem cell therapy, but that's all we had."
  },
  {
    "start": 782.57,
    "end": 785.33,
    "text": " Now we've got this thing called partial reprogramming,"
  },
  {
    "start": 785.33,
    "end": 788.61,
    "text": " which is a system for getting cells"
  },
  {
    "start": 788.61,
    "end": 793.61,
    "text": " that are already in the body to behave more like stem cells"
  },
  {
    "start": 793.61,
    "end": 795.65,
    "text": " than they normally would."
  },
  {
    "start": 795.65,
    "end": 800.37,
    "text": " And to therefore be able to regenerate and replace"
  },
  {
    "start": 800.37,
    "end": 804.25,
    "text": " lost cells more effectively than they normally would"
  },
  {
    "start": 804.25,
    "end": 805.37,
    "text": " in an old person."
  },
  {
    "start": 805.37,
    "end": 806.45,
    "text": " This is a very new idea."
  },
  {
    "start": 806.45,
    "end": 811.45,
    "text": " It was only first started to be developed just a few years ago"
  },
  {
    "start": 811.45,
    "end": 816.21,
    "text": " as a result of work that was published first in like 2006,"
  },
  {
    "start": 816.21,
    "end": 819.69,
    "text": " which was after I had come up with the original scheme."
  },
  {
    "start": 819.69,
    "end": 820.65,
    "text": " - I found it very interesting."
  },
  {
    "start": 820.65,
    "end": 821.97,
    "text": " Yesterday there was a presentation"
  },
  {
    "start": 821.97,
    "end": 824.25,
    "text": " about the 12 hallmarks of aging,"
  },
  {
    "start": 824.25,
    "end": 828.81,
    "text": " and that at the end, most of the 11 hallmarks are caused"
  },
  {
    "start": 828.81,
    "end": 832.09,
    "text": " because of one hallmark, the dyspiosis."
  },
  {
    "start": 832.09,
    "end": 833.77,
    "text": " Do you have an opinion about that?"
  },
  {
    "start": 833.77,
    "end": 835.09,
    "text": " - Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 835.09,
    "end": 838.97,
    "text": " So all of the so-called hallmarks of aging"
  },
  {
    "start": 838.97,
    "end": 841.97,
    "text": " are linked to each other in one way or another."
  },
  {
    "start": 841.97,
    "end": 844.05,
    "text": " So I mean, you could think of my seven deadly things,"
  },
  {
    "start": 844.05,
    "end": 846.89,
    "text": " as hallmarks before hallmarks were cool, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 846.89,
    "end": 850.49,
    "text": " That was the original list of hallmarks."
  },
  {
    "start": 850.49,
    "end": 855.49,
    "text": " And the more recent attempts to classify aspects"
  },
  {
    "start": 855.49,
    "end": 858.97,
    "text": " of aging into these hallmarks are actually,"
  },
  {
    "start": 858.97,
    "end": 861.53,
    "text": " I don't think they're quite as good as my one was,"
  },
  {
    "start": 861.53,
    "end": 865.05,
    "text": " largely because they are not built on the need"
  },
  {
    "start": 865.05,
    "end": 870.05,
    "text": " to have corresponding repair approaches."
  },
  {
    "start": 870.05,
    "end": 872.93,
    "text": " They're more of just kind of a classification"
  },
  {
    "start": 872.93,
    "end": 874.41,
    "text": " for the sake of classifying."
  },
  {
    "start": 874.41,
    "end": 877.85,
    "text": " But the thing is everything talks to everything else."
  },
  {
    "start": 877.85,
    "end": 881.37,
    "text": " So there are other people who would say that cross-linking"
  },
  {
    "start": 881.37,
    "end": 884.81,
    "text": " is actually the hallmark that matters the most,"
  },
  {
    "start": 884.81,
    "end": 886.01,
    "text": " and it causes everything else."
  },
  {
    "start": 886.01,
    "end": 888.25,
    "text": " But that's also a bit of an exaggeration."
  },
  {
    "start": 888.25,
    "end": 892.53,
    "text": " Essentially, you can't have a hierarchy of these things."
  },
  {
    "start": 892.53,
    "end": 894.97,
    "text": " Each of them has influences on the others,"
  },
  {
    "start": 894.97,
    "end": 897.97,
    "text": " but that goes in both directions."
  },
  {
    "start": 897.97,
    "end": 899.09,
    "text": " - Okay, excellent."
  },
  {
    "start": 899.09,
    "end": 900.17,
    "text": " So what would you say?"
  },
  {
    "start": 900.17,
    "end": 902.13,
    "text": " How realistic is it that we will see"
  },
  {
    "start": 902.13,
    "end": 905.01,
    "text": " a complete reversal of aging in the near future?"
  },
  {
    "start": 905.01,
    "end": 907.77,
    "text": " - Well, so of course, I've been thinking about time frames"
  },
  {
    "start": 907.77,
    "end": 909.71,
    "text": " since I started in this field."
  },
  {
    "start": 909.71,
    "end": 915.21,
    "text": " At this point, I think we have a 50/50 chance"
  },
  {
    "start": 915.21,
    "end": 920.21,
    "text": " of getting to a pretty effective level of comprehensiveness"
  },
  {
    "start": 920.21,
    "end": 923.13,
    "text": " in developing these damage repair approaches"
  },
  {
    "start": 923.13,
    "end": 925.61,
    "text": " within the next 12 to 15 years."
  },
  {
    "start": 925.61,
    "end": 927.41,
    "text": " So the second half of next decade."
  },
  {
    "start": 927.41,
    "end": 928.53,
    "text": " - Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 928.53,
    "end": 931.05,
    "text": " - And so that's a threshold that I call"
  },
  {
    "start": 931.05,
    "end": 933.81,
    "text": " longevity escape velocity, which is,"
  },
  {
    "start": 933.81,
    "end": 937.09,
    "text": " you know, the point where we haven't necessarily"
  },
  {
    "start": 937.09,
    "end": 940.29,
    "text": " completely fixed aging, but we've fixed enough of it"
  },
  {
    "start": 940.29,
    "end": 943.77,
    "text": " to be able to buy us maybe 20 years of additional life,"
  },
  {
    "start": 943.77,
    "end": 946.57,
    "text": " which will be enough time to figure out"
  },
  {
    "start": 946.57,
    "end": 949.41,
    "text": " how to make it even better and so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 949.41,
    "end": 952.29,
    "text": " - What would you say are the biggest obstacles"
  },
  {
    "start": 952.29,
    "end": 954.75,
    "text": " when we need to overcome this achievement?"
  },
  {
    "start": 954.75,
    "end": 960.57,
    "text": " - The main obstacle is that still society"
  },
  {
    "start": 960.57,
    "end": 965.17,
    "text": " is terrified of getting its hopes up."
  },
  {
    "start": 965.17,
    "end": 970.17,
    "text": " Almost everybody in humanity is absolutely terrified"
  },
  {
    "start": 970.17,
    "end": 973.05,
    "text": " of aging, so much so that their only way of coping with it"
  },
  {
    "start": 973.05,
    "end": 974.77,
    "text": " is to pretend that they're not terrified at all,"
  },
  {
    "start": 974.77,
    "end": 977.89,
    "text": " to make these stupid, you know, arguments"
  },
  {
    "start": 977.89,
    "end": 981.49,
    "text": " that aging is some kind of blessing in disguise or whatever."
  },
  {
    "start": 981.49,
    "end": 983.37,
    "text": " And so aging is not taken seriously"
  },
  {
    "start": 983.37,
    "end": 985.77,
    "text": " as a medical condition the way it should be."
  },
  {
    "start": 985.77,
    "end": 987.49,
    "text": " And that means that there's not nearly enough money"
  },
  {
    "start": 987.49,
    "end": 990.21,
    "text": " being spent trying to develop these things."
  },
  {
    "start": 990.21,
    "end": 992.85,
    "text": " At the moment, I still have to spend most of my time"
  },
  {
    "start": 992.85,
    "end": 996.49,
    "text": " just raising a small amount of money to get work done."
  },
  {
    "start": 996.49,
    "end": 999.29,
    "text": " - Okay, so in terms of the society,"
  },
  {
    "start": 999.29,
    "end": 1003.81,
    "text": " what would you say is a view on stop aging?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1003.81,
    "end": 1005.73,
    "text": " Because I think a lot of people are thinking"
  },
  {
    "start": 1005.73,
    "end": 1010.73,
    "text": " that this is, aesthetically, not justifiable."
  },
  {
    "start": 1010.73,
    "end": 1015.05,
    "text": " - So a lot of people say that it's ethically not justifiable,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1015.05,
    "end": 1016.57,
    "text": " or words to that effect."
  },
  {
    "start": 1016.57,
    "end": 1018.53,
    "text": " But of course, do they really think that?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1018.53,
    "end": 1019.61,
    "text": " I don't think so."
  },
  {
    "start": 1019.61,
    "end": 1024.61,
    "text": " Because, you know, nobody wants to get sick, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1024.61,
    "end": 1026.81,
    "text": " And that's all we're talking about."
  },
  {
    "start": 1026.81,
    "end": 1028.57,
    "text": " We're just talking about stopping people"
  },
  {
    "start": 1028.57,
    "end": 1030.01,
    "text": " from getting sick."
  },
  {
    "start": 1030.01,
    "end": 1033.81,
    "text": " It's as if, like, it's like saying that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1033.81,
    "end": 1036.17,
    "text": " it's terribly good to be trying as hard as you can"
  },
  {
    "start": 1036.17,
    "end": 1041.05,
    "text": " to do something just so long as one doesn't succeed."
  },
  {
    "start": 1041.05,
    "end": 1042.01,
    "text": " It's ridiculous, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1042.01,
    "end": 1042.85,
    "text": " It's absurd."
  },
  {
    "start": 1042.85,
    "end": 1044.25,
    "text": " Nobody wants to get sick."
  },
  {
    "start": 1044.25,
    "end": 1049.25,
    "text": " And so they kind of pretend that aging is somehow special,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1049.25,
    "end": 1052.61,
    "text": " that it's somehow distinct"
  },
  {
    "start": 1052.61,
    "end": 1056.45,
    "text": " from the so-called diseases of aging, which it isn't."
  },
  {
    "start": 1056.45,
    "end": 1059.61,
    "text": " There's no biological difference between"
  },
  {
    "start": 1059.61,
    "end": 1063.25,
    "text": " the so-called diseases of aging and aging itself."
  },
  {
    "start": 1063.25,
    "end": 1065.45,
    "text": " There's no such thing as aging itself."
  },
  {
    "start": 1065.45,
    "end": 1066.61,
    "text": " - Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1066.61,
    "end": 1070.89,
    "text": " What would you say, how likely it is that this"
  },
  {
    "start": 1070.89,
    "end": 1074.89,
    "text": " could become just a privilege of the, let's say, rich people?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1074.89,
    "end": 1077.49,
    "text": " - There's no way in the world that that would ever happen."
  },
  {
    "start": 1077.49,
    "end": 1080.49,
    "text": " And it's very easy to explain why it couldn't happen."
  },
  {
    "start": 1080.49,
    "end": 1083.77,
    "text": " The simple answer is, aging is extremely expensive"
  },
  {
    "start": 1083.77,
    "end": 1086.25,
    "text": " for society, extraordinarily expensive,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1086.25,
    "end": 1090.13,
    "text": " like the vast majority, 80%, 90% of the medical budget"
  },
  {
    "start": 1090.13,
    "end": 1092.57,
    "text": " of the Western world goes on the health problems"
  },
  {
    "start": 1092.57,
    "end": 1093.61,
    "text": " of late life."
  },
  {
    "start": 1093.61,
    "end": 1095.97,
    "text": " If you can stop those health problems from happening,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1095.97,
    "end": 1097.81,
    "text": " you save a lot of money, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1097.81,
    "end": 1102.29,
    "text": " Now, of course, even if you have to spend some of that money"
  },
  {
    "start": 1102.29,
    "end": 1104.65,
    "text": " on the therapies, the preventative therapies"
  },
  {
    "start": 1104.65,
    "end": 1107.69,
    "text": " that stop people from getting sick when they get old, fine."
  },
  {
    "start": 1107.69,
    "end": 1111.53,
    "text": " But you still, the therapies will pay for themselves"
  },
  {
    "start": 1111.53,
    "end": 1113.93,
    "text": " many, many times over really quickly,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1113.93,
    "end": 1118.57,
    "text": " which means that it would be economically suicidal"
  },
  {
    "start": 1118.57,
    "end": 1120.97,
    "text": " for any government not to make sure"
  },
  {
    "start": 1120.97,
    "end": 1123.45,
    "text": " that these treatments are available"
  },
  {
    "start": 1123.45,
    "end": 1126.09,
    "text": " independent of the ability to pay."
  },
  {
    "start": 1126.09,
    "end": 1128.29,
    "text": " - longevity could have a significant impact"
  },
  {
    "start": 1128.29,
    "end": 1130.01,
    "text": " to the global population."
  },
  {
    "start": 1130.01,
    "end": 1131.33,
    "text": " What is your view on that?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1131.33,
    "end": 1140.21,
    "text": " - This is probably the single most common criticism"
  },
  {
    "start": 1140.21,
    "end": 1143.65,
    "text": " of this kind of work."
  },
  {
    "start": 1143.65,
    "end": 1146.01,
    "text": " They say, \"Oh, well, we put all the people.\""
  },
  {
    "start": 1146.01,
    "end": 1148.73,
    "text": " And of course, you could argue that today"
  },
  {
    "start": 1148.73,
    "end": 1151.01,
    "text": " we already have a problem of overpopulation,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1151.01,
    "end": 1152.73,
    "text": " and that's why we have like climate change"
  },
  {
    "start": 1152.73,
    "end": 1154.05,
    "text": " because there's so many people."
  },
  {
    "start": 1154.05,
    "end": 1157.25,
    "text": " But this is not because of the number of people."
  },
  {
    "start": 1157.25,
    "end": 1160.81,
    "text": " This is because of the amount of pollution that people make."
  },
  {
    "start": 1160.81,
    "end": 1163.21,
    "text": " So everything that we're doing now"
  },
  {
    "start": 1163.21,
    "end": 1165.17,
    "text": " to develop other technologies like, you know,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1165.17,
    "end": 1169.41,
    "text": " carbon capture or, you know, bacteria that eat plastics"
  },
  {
    "start": 1169.41,
    "end": 1172.65,
    "text": " or artificial meat, things like that,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1172.65,
    "end": 1176.45,
    "text": " these are going to reduce the amount of pollution"
  },
  {
    "start": 1176.45,
    "end": 1177.53,
    "text": " that people make."
  },
  {
    "start": 1177.53,
    "end": 1180.85,
    "text": " So we will actually have less of an overpopulation problem"
  },
  {
    "start": 1180.85,
    "end": 1183.77,
    "text": " as we go forward, even if we have more people."
  },
  {
    "start": 1183.77,
    "end": 1186.53,
    "text": " We also remember that we will only have more people"
  },
  {
    "start": 1186.53,
    "end": 1189.21,
    "text": " very slowly, you know, even though we,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1189.21,
    "end": 1193.77,
    "text": " even if nobody dies at all, then we've still only got,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1193.77,
    "end": 1196.09,
    "text": " like people are only getting older at one year per year,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1196.09,
    "end": 1196.93,
    "text": " right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1196.93,
    "end": 1201.57,
    "text": " And so, you know, there's no way that you possibly have"
  },
  {
    "start": 1201.57,
    "end": 1204.17,
    "text": " like 20 billion people on the planet"
  },
  {
    "start": 1204.17,
    "end": 1207.73,
    "text": " for 100 years at least."
  },
  {
    "start": 1207.73,
    "end": 1210.09,
    "text": " And, you know, it's generally a bad idea"
  },
  {
    "start": 1210.09,
    "end": 1213.89,
    "text": " to make decisions today on the basis of what to do today,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1213.89,
    "end": 1215.53,
    "text": " on the basis of what you think the world"
  },
  {
    "start": 1215.53,
    "end": 1217.37,
    "text": " is going to be like 100 years from now."
  },
  {
    "start": 1217.37,
    "end": 1219.13,
    "text": " We have no idea what the world's going to be like"
  },
  {
    "start": 1219.13,
    "end": 1220.61,
    "text": " 100 years from now."
  },
  {
    "start": 1220.61,
    "end": 1223.05,
    "text": " I wish I could be more, you know, useful than that,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1223.05,
    "end": 1225.05,
    "text": " but I don't have any magical secrets."
  },
  {
    "start": 1225.05,
    "end": 1228.61,
    "text": " The main thing that one can do is, first of all,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1228.61,
    "end": 1233.01,
    "text": " don't die in stupid ways when you're young,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1233.01,
    "end": 1235.25,
    "text": " like don't get into a car accident."
  },
  {
    "start": 1235.25,
    "end": 1239.33,
    "text": " And secondly, do whatever you can"
  },
  {
    "start": 1239.33,
    "end": 1241.65,
    "text": " to speed up the research, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1241.65,
    "end": 1243.81,
    "text": " So that you have a better chance of benefiting"
  },
  {
    "start": 1243.81,
    "end": 1247.33,
    "text": " from that research, of things that don't yet exist."
  },
  {
    "start": 1247.33,
    "end": 1249.61,
    "text": " So, you know, write me a large check if you can."
  },
  {
    "start": 1249.61,
    "end": 1252.21,
    "text": " If you don't have a large bank balance,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1252.21,
    "end": 1254.41,
    "text": " you could interview me, for example,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1254.41,
    "end": 1258.65,
    "text": " or you could just be and get involved in advocacy."
  },
  {
    "start": 1258.65,
    "end": 1262.09,
    "text": " Or if you're a scientist, get into an impactful area"
  },
  {
    "start": 1262.09,
    "end": 1265.37,
    "text": " of research that's relevant to this kind of work."
  },
  {
    "start": 1265.37,
    "end": 1267.57,
    "text": " So what would you say, how does your work"
  },
  {
    "start": 1267.57,
    "end": 1268.97,
    "text": " and your knowledge of longevity"
  },
  {
    "start": 1268.97,
    "end": 1270.65,
    "text": " influence your own lifestyle?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1270.65,
    "end": 1276.45,
    "text": " Well, my lifestyle is, like,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1276.45,
    "end": 1281.09,
    "text": " it's really defined by my work."
  },
  {
    "start": 1281.09,
    "end": 1284.89,
    "text": " You know, I spend a lot more time than I would like"
  },
  {
    "start": 1284.89,
    "end": 1287.89,
    "text": " travelling and, you know, travelling around the world,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1287.89,
    "end": 1291.81,
    "text": " giving lectures, going to conferences and so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 1291.81,
    "end": 1293.05,
    "text": " Because I have to get the word out."
  },
  {
    "start": 1293.05,
    "end": 1295.05,
    "text": " I have to get people to understand what's going on"
  },
  {
    "start": 1295.05,
    "end": 1296.85,
    "text": " and why it's important."
  },
  {
    "start": 1296.85,
    "end": 1298.61,
    "text": " And finally, what is your biggest dream"
  },
  {
    "start": 1298.61,
    "end": 1300.57,
    "text": " for the future of humanity"
  },
  {
    "start": 1300.57,
    "end": 1304.57,
    "text": " if your visions of reverse aging becomes a reality?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1304.57,
    "end": 1306.33,
    "text": " What's my vision of humanity?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1306.33,
    "end": 1309.97,
    "text": " Well, honestly, you know,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1309.97,
    "end": 1313.61,
    "text": " it's a world in which there are lots of people"
  },
  {
    "start": 1313.61,
    "end": 1315.17,
    "text": " who were born a long time ago,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1315.17,
    "end": 1317.49,
    "text": " but there's no one biologically old, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1317.49,
    "end": 1320.01,
    "text": " And so basically everyone's healthy, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1320.01,
    "end": 1322.29,
    "text": " And that's a very nice world to be thinking about."
  },
  {
    "start": 1322.29,
    "end": 1323.81,
    "text": " No one gets sick."
  },
  {
    "start": 1323.81,
    "end": 1325.37,
    "text": " That would be nice."
  },
  {
    "start": 1325.37,
    "end": 1326.69,
    "text": " Excellent. Thank you very much."
  },
  {
    "start": 1326.69,
    "end": 1332.45,
    "text": " May I ask, do you take any supplements on a regular base?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1332.45,
    "end": 1333.85,
    "text": " No. Not at all."
  },
  {
    "start": 1333.85,
    "end": 1337.05,
    "text": " That's right. Yeah. I mean, you know,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1337.05,
    "end": 1342.13,
    "text": " it's decidedly unclear whether supplements do you good or not."
  },
  {
    "start": 1342.13,
    "end": 1344.25,
    "text": " I mean, but the point is,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1344.25,
    "end": 1347.25,
    "text": " they have different benefits for different people."
  },
  {
    "start": 1347.25,
    "end": 1350.29,
    "text": " Everyone's different. Everyone's got different needs."
  },
  {
    "start": 1350.29,
    "end": 1352.45,
    "text": " And I just seem to be well-built."
  },
  {
    "start": 1352.45,
    "end": 1354.89,
    "text": " You know, I can eat and drink what I like and nothing happens."
  },
  {
    "start": 1354.89,
    "end": 1356.77,
    "text": " And I don't even need to exercise."
  },
  {
    "start": 1357.77,
    "end": 1359.29,
    "text": " If you enjoyed this episode,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1359.29,
    "end": 1363.37,
    "text": " I'd be thrilled if you could leave a rating on Apple Podcast or Spotify."
  },
  {
    "start": 1363.37,
    "end": 1366.97,
    "text": " To make sure you never miss out, subscribe to our newsletter."
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    "start": 1366.97,
    "end": 1369.05,
    "text": " It's not just about these podcasts."
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    "end": 1371.81,
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    "start": 1371.81,
    "end": 1374.61,
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    "end": 1377.21,
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]