[
  {
    "start": 0.02,
    "end": 4.16,
    "text": "The school was first intended as a Geschwister-Scholl-Hochschule."
  },
  {
    "start": 4.5,
    "end": 8.3,
    "text": "They've at first did not really think about making it a new Bauhaus."
  },
  {
    "start": 8.42,
    "end": 13.08,
    "text": "This was the suggestion by Max Bill, and that's a very important fact, of course."
  },
  {
    "start": 13.74,
    "end": 17.62,
    "text": "My name is Martin Mäntele. I'm an art historian by training,"
  },
  {
    "start": 17.86,
    "end": 25.26,
    "text": "and I work as the head of the HfG Archiv, the archive of the former Ulm School of Design,"
  },
  {
    "start": 25.58,
    "end": 28.74,
    "text": "or in German, Hochschule für Gestaltung."
  },
  {
    "start": 28.74,
    "end": 31.74,
    "text": "As such, we are an external department"
  },
  {
    "start": 31.74,
    "end": 36.64,
    "text": "of Museum Ulm, which is run by the city of Ulm in South Germany."
  },
  {
    "start": 37.04,
    "end": 41.76,
    "text": "My name is Anja Guttenberger and this is my podcast, bauhaus faces."
  },
  {
    "start": 47.12,
    "end": 57.2,
    "text": "Music"
  },
  {
    "start": 57.0,
    "end": 62.38,
    "text": "Welcome back to the first bonus episode of my bauhaus faces episode about Max Bill."
  },
  {
    "start": 62.62,
    "end": 67.66,
    "text": "As promised, I will start publishing two bonus episodes starting as of today."
  },
  {
    "start": 67.66,
    "end": 72.1,
    "text": "In this first bonus, you will hear the original interview with Martin Mäntele,"
  },
  {
    "start": 72.38,
    "end": 74.38,
    "text": "head of the HfG Ulm Archive."
  },
  {
    "start": 74.76,
    "end": 79.44,
    "text": "In the podcast with him, Max Bill's widow Angela Thomas and the Bill filmmaker"
  },
  {
    "start": 79.44,
    "end": 83.26,
    "text": "Erich Schmid, you already heard what he had to say about Max Bill's role in"
  },
  {
    "start": 83.26,
    "end": 87.52,
    "text": "the development of the Volkshochschule Ulm into the official successor of the"
  },
  {
    "start": 87.52,
    "end": 89.32,
    "text": "Bauhaus and how this era,"
  },
  {
    "start": 89.56,
    "end": 92.36,
    "text": "after only a few years, came to an end for him."
  },
  {
    "start": 92.96,
    "end": 98.16,
    "text": "By the way, if you haven't listened to the Max Bill podcast, I advise you to do so."
  },
  {
    "start": 98.44,
    "end": 102.7,
    "text": "In one hour 15, you will hear a walk through Max Bill's life and art."
  },
  {
    "start": 102.88,
    "end": 104.02,
    "text": "It's wonderful. I promise."
  },
  {
    "start": 104.66,
    "end": 109.18,
    "text": "In this interview here with Martin Mäntele, Max Bill plays a central role."
  },
  {
    "start": 109.36,
    "end": 114.6,
    "text": "But the actual star is the success story of the HfG Ulm, the Ulm School of Design."
  },
  {
    "start": 115.16,
    "end": 119.38,
    "text": "We talked about the original idea of the school when Inge Scholl and her future"
  },
  {
    "start": 119.38,
    "end": 123.36,
    "text": "husband Otl Aicher initiated a school in memory of her siblings,"
  },
  {
    "start": 123.62,
    "end": 128.28,
    "text": "Sophie and Hans Scholl, who were murdered by the Nazis in 1943 for distributing"
  },
  {
    "start": 128.28,
    "end": 133.28,
    "text": "political leaflets at the University of Munich, and how that idea became something"
  },
  {
    "start": 133.28,
    "end": 135.18,
    "text": "else when Max Bill entered the stage."
  },
  {
    "start": 135.8,
    "end": 140.12,
    "text": "Of course, we didn't leave out the role the Americans took in this play as allied"
  },
  {
    "start": 140.12,
    "end": 146.3,
    "text": "power in war-torn Germany and as financial supporters, but also as decisive force because of that."
  },
  {
    "start": 147.26,
    "end": 150.78,
    "text": "And we also talked a lot about the design icons of the HfG."
  },
  {
    "start": 151.0,
    "end": 156.72,
    "text": "The Ulm stool, the brown radio \"Snow White's Coffin\" and the stackable tableware TC100."
  },
  {
    "start": 157.14,
    "end": 160.64,
    "text": "And guys, I have to be honest, after that interview with Martin Mäntele,"
  },
  {
    "start": 160.82,
    "end": 164.96,
    "text": "I immediately looked into eBay to find Snow White's Coffin and see if I could afford it."
  },
  {
    "start": 165.42,
    "end": 171.22,
    "text": "But as in 1962, when it was designed and sold first, it still costs a fortune."
  },
  {
    "start": 171.72,
    "end": 175.76,
    "text": "What a shame. I would have loved to put that beautiful radio on my Hellerow"
  },
  {
    "start": 175.76,
    "end": 181.0,
    "text": "sideboard from the same time in the GDR, designed by Bauhaus alumni Franz Ehrlich,"
  },
  {
    "start": 181.2,
    "end": 185.94,
    "text": "and that way united two design icons from East and West Germany in one place."
  },
  {
    "start": 186.36,
    "end": 188.1,
    "text": "Well, maybe one day."
  },
  {
    "start": 188.74,
    "end": 192.84,
    "text": "Let's now get into that wonderful bonus episode. Just a quick reminder,"
  },
  {
    "start": 193.04,
    "end": 195.1,
    "text": "this is only the first bonus episode."
  },
  {
    "start": 195.28,
    "end": 200.16,
    "text": "The second one, featuring Angela Thomas, Max Bill's second wife and widow and"
  },
  {
    "start": 200.16,
    "end": 204.38,
    "text": "fellow doctor of art history, and her husband, the filmmaker and journalist"
  },
  {
    "start": 204.38,
    "end": 207.22,
    "text": "Erich Schmid, who made this wonderful documentary,"
  },
  {
    "start": 207.82,
    "end": 212.46,
    "text": "\"Max Bill –The Master's Vision\", or in German \"Das absolute Augenmaß\"."
  },
  {
    "start": 212.62,
    "end": 216.34,
    "text": "This interview focuses on Max Bill's life and is in German."
  },
  {
    "start": 216.74,
    "end": 222.36,
    "text": "This bonus episode will be published next week. So don't forget to look out for that one too."
  },
  {
    "start": 223.26,
    "end": 226.84,
    "text": "And also look out for the chapter images on your smartphone or tablet while"
  },
  {
    "start": 226.84,
    "end": 228.02,
    "text": "listening to this episode."
  },
  {
    "start": 228.26,
    "end": 233.52,
    "text": "As always, I have compiled a selection of photos and images that illustrate every chapter."
  },
  {
    "start": 234.1,
    "end": 238.64,
    "text": "Especially when talking about the architecture of the HfG and the design icons,"
  },
  {
    "start": 238.84,
    "end": 242.22,
    "text": "I find it tremendously helpful to actually see what we are talking about."
  },
  {
    "start": 242.6,
    "end": 247.46,
    "text": "I will also publish those images on my Instagram account where I am @bauhausfacespodcast"
  },
  {
    "start": 247.46,
    "end": 249.48,
    "text": "in a few days."
  },
  {
    "start": 249.48,
    "end": 254.6,
    "text": "I would like to thank Martin Mäntele and the HfG Archive for providing me with"
  },
  {
    "start": 254.6,
    "end": 259.38,
    "text": "extensive material and permitting me to use those wonderful photos of the Ulm"
  },
  {
    "start": 259.38,
    "end": 260.88,
    "text": "School of Design for my podcast."
  },
  {
    "start": 261.46,
    "end": 265.06,
    "text": "And now, like always, just a very quick reminder to please, please,"
  },
  {
    "start": 265.2,
    "end": 269.24,
    "text": "please, please, please rate bauhaus faces on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and YouTube"
  },
  {
    "start": 269.24,
    "end": 272.2,
    "text": "and to share this podcast with other Bauhaus fans."
  },
  {
    "start": 272.2,
    "end": 278.32,
    "text": "Well, let's now dive into this bonus epi sode of Bauhaus Faces with Martin Mäntele"
  },
  {
    "start": 278.32,
    "end": 281.56,
    "text": "and shine a light on the Ulm School of Design."
  },
  {
    "start": 284.58,
    "end": 289.2,
    "text": "Thank you so much for making the time today to talk to me about the HfG and"
  },
  {
    "start": 289.2,
    "end": 291.92,
    "text": "especially about Max Bill's role at the HfG Ulm."
  },
  {
    "start": 292.12,
    "end": 298.38,
    "text": "To get to Max Bill, we have to kind of talk about the HfG, the Ulm School of"
  },
  {
    "start": 298.38,
    "end": 299.5,
    "text": "Design first a little bit."
  },
  {
    "start": 299.66,
    "end": 301.96,
    "text": "How did the school come into being?"
  },
  {
    "start": 302.2,
    "end": 306.88,
    "text": "The school was first intended as a Geschwister-Scholl-Hochschule."
  },
  {
    "start": 307.8,
    "end": 312.4,
    "text": "And again, I have to talk first about Otl Aicher and Inge Scholl,"
  },
  {
    "start": 312.5,
    "end": 316.76,
    "text": "the co-founders together with Max Bill of this legendary school."
  },
  {
    "start": 317.0,
    "end": 320.98,
    "text": "Otl Aicher and Inge Scholl, they grew up in Ulm. And Inge Scholl,"
  },
  {
    "start": 321.14,
    "end": 323.98,
    "text": "she is the older sister of Hans and Sophie Scholl."
  },
  {
    "start": 324.2,
    "end": 329.0,
    "text": "Hans and Sophie Scholl fought against the Nazi regime during the Third Reich."
  },
  {
    "start": 329.0,
    "end": 333.98,
    "text": "And in 1943, they were caught when they were distributing leaflets in Munich"
  },
  {
    "start": 333.98,
    "end": 340.34,
    "text": "University, and after a show trial of only three days, they were murdered by the Nazi regime."
  },
  {
    "start": 341.27,
    "end": 347.29,
    "text": "That and the destruction of Germany and also of the city of Ulm was quite a"
  },
  {
    "start": 347.29,
    "end": 352.49,
    "text": "traumatic experience for both Inge Scholl and her future husband, Otl Aicher."
  },
  {
    "start": 352.89,
    "end": 358.17,
    "text": "And when they came back after the war to Ulm, Otl Aicher started to organize"
  },
  {
    "start": 358.17,
    "end": 364.63,
    "text": "lecture programs already in August 1945, which were highly successful."
  },
  {
    "start": 365.09,
    "end": 370.35,
    "text": "And here in Ulm, the Americans were stationed, and they sort of observed this."
  },
  {
    "start": 371.15,
    "end": 374.87,
    "text": "And they said, well, why don't you restart the Volkshochschule?"
  },
  {
    "start": 375.15,
    "end": 381.21,
    "text": "The Volkshochschule was already there, but the new Volkshochschule was founded in the late 40s."
  },
  {
    "start": 381.39,
    "end": 385.81,
    "text": "But not Aicher became director, but his future wife, Inge Scholl."
  },
  {
    "start": 386.55,
    "end": 394.07,
    "text": "And until 1948, it was one of the largest Volkshochschule in Germany with about 3,000 members."
  },
  {
    "start": 394.07,
    "end": 399.95,
    "text": "For non-German-speaking listeners, the Volkshochschule are adult education centers"
  },
  {
    "start": 399.95,
    "end": 405.91,
    "text": "where you can take courses and classes, but you cannot take any kind of degree."
  },
  {
    "start": 406.55,
    "end": 410.93,
    "text": "And within this Volkshochschule, there established itself a group,"
  },
  {
    "start": 411.47,
    "end": 417.63,
    "text": "Studio Zero, or in German Studio Null, with, of course, Aicher and Inge Scholl"
  },
  {
    "start": 417.63,
    "end": 423.15,
    "text": "as members, but also other members, journalists, the director of the library at the time."
  },
  {
    "start": 423.15,
    "end": 429.69,
    "text": "And they were discussing different ideas and also the idea of founding a Gewister-Scholl-Hochschule"
  },
  {
    "start": 429.69,
    "end": 433.03,
    "text": "in memory of Hans and Sophie Scholl,"
  },
  {
    "start": 433.25,
    "end": 438.85,
    "text": "meaning they wanted to establish a university-level education in Ulm,"
  },
  {
    "start": 438.87,
    "end": 443.63,
    "text": "but focusing on general sciences like history, psychology,"
  },
  {
    "start": 444.47,
    "end": 450.23,
    "text": "politics, of course, everything in order to sort of educate the younger generation"
  },
  {
    "start": 450.23,
    "end": 453.07,
    "text": "in the sense of the new democracy."
  },
  {
    "start": 453.15,
    "end": 458.89,
    "text": "System, because this was the main impulse for all of them, especially for Aicher and Scholl."
  },
  {
    "start": 459.01,
    "end": 463.43,
    "text": "They said, we need to do something that something like the Third Reich would"
  },
  {
    "start": 463.43,
    "end": 465.73,
    "text": "never, ever happen again in Germany."
  },
  {
    "start": 465.83,
    "end": 470.87,
    "text": "This is really the basic impulse, and we sometimes talk also about the anti-fascist"
  },
  {
    "start": 470.87,
    "end": 476.33,
    "text": "impulse of them for all the actions of the Volkshochschule, and also,"
  },
  {
    "start": 476.39,
    "end": 478.75,
    "text": "of course, later, the Ulm School of Design."
  },
  {
    "start": 478.75,
    "end": 483.81,
    "text": "But as I said, first, they intended this to become a Geschwister-Scholl-Hochschule."
  },
  {
    "start": 484.01,
    "end": 486.77,
    "text": "And so in 1948, they traveled to Switzerland."
  },
  {
    "start": 487.84,
    "end": 494.5,
    "text": "Where they met Max Bill and also talked with him about this idea of a Geschwister-Scholl-Hochschule."
  },
  {
    "start": 494.68,
    "end": 495.76,
    "text": "And he was quite interested."
  },
  {
    "start": 496.0,
    "end": 501.5,
    "text": "And so they exchanged letters and they were eventually inviting him to join"
  },
  {
    "start": 501.5,
    "end": 506.98,
    "text": "them in establishing or at least in developing a program, which he did."
  },
  {
    "start": 507.08,
    "end": 511.9,
    "text": "With the time, they also found out that the American government would be interested"
  },
  {
    "start": 511.9,
    "end": 516.94,
    "text": "in funding them because after the founding of the Bundesrepublik,"
  },
  {
    "start": 517.22,
    "end": 523.04,
    "text": "there was a lot of money which was part of the Marshall Plan and there was a"
  },
  {
    "start": 523.04,
    "end": 526.48,
    "text": "special re-education fund with about 50 million marks."
  },
  {
    "start": 526.68,
    "end": 530.78,
    "text": "And the most important person in this complex on the American side is John Jay"
  },
  {
    "start": 530.88,
    "end": 535.42,
    "text": "McCloy. He was the High Commissioner of Germany at the time and he found a silent"
  },
  {
    "start": 535.42,
    "end": 541.82,
    "text": "agreement with Ingersoll saying that the American government would give one"
  },
  {
    "start": 541.82,
    "end": 547.74,
    "text": "million mark in order to build the building if the German side would also give as much money."
  },
  {
    "start": 548.5,
    "end": 552.28,
    "text": "And so it was the big task for Ingersoll to collect this money,"
  },
  {
    "start": 552.3,
    "end": 556.44,
    "text": "which came from private and public sources, but it was really a very,"
  },
  {
    "start": 556.62,
    "end": 562.9,
    "text": "very difficult task because a million mark at the time was a lot of money, of course."
  },
  {
    "start": 563.52,
    "end": 568.8,
    "text": "And so eventually that had everything together. So in 1952, there was a big"
  },
  {
    "start": 568.8,
    "end": 572.62,
    "text": "celebration where the check was handed over in the City Hall of Ulm,"
  },
  {
    "start": 572.74,
    "end": 576.5,
    "text": "and Bill could finalize the planning and they could start building."
  },
  {
    "start": 576.82,
    "end": 582.76,
    "text": "But already in 1953, they started the first course."
  },
  {
    "start": 584.1,
    "end": 587.46,
    "text": "Why did they approach Max Bill in Switzerland?"
  },
  {
    "start": 587.68,
    "end": 592.5,
    "text": "Why didn't they approach anyone else that had studied or taught at the Bauhaus"
  },
  {
    "start": 592.5,
    "end": 595.18,
    "text": "before if they were interested in that kind of person?"
  },
  {
    "start": 595.18,
    "end": 600.3,
    "text": "As I said, they at first did not really think about making it a new Bauhaus."
  },
  {
    "start": 600.48,
    "end": 605.14,
    "text": "This was the suggestion by Max Bill, and that's a very important fact, of course,"
  },
  {
    "start": 605.28,
    "end": 610.16,
    "text": "because Max Bill told them very early on that he thought it's not a good idea"
  },
  {
    "start": 610.16,
    "end": 615.52,
    "text": "to name the school after Hans and Sophie Scholl in memory of what they did."
  },
  {
    "start": 615.74,
    "end": 619.92,
    "text": "Also, because he said it's too nostalgic, it's too German, and they are not"
  },
  {
    "start": 619.92,
    "end": 625.18,
    "text": "known outside of Germany as a resistance group, which is true, actually, at the time."
  },
  {
    "start": 625.48,
    "end": 628.94,
    "text": "And he said, well, why don't we try to reestablish the Bauhaus?"
  },
  {
    "start": 629.04,
    "end": 635.56,
    "text": "Because he had started at the Bauhaus briefly in 1927-28, and he had excellent"
  },
  {
    "start": 635.56,
    "end": 639.24,
    "text": "connections with former Bauhauslers, as we call them in German."
  },
  {
    "start": 639.5,
    "end": 645.46,
    "text": "For example, Walter Gropius, the founder of the Bauhaus 1919 in Weimar, and others."
  },
  {
    "start": 646.29,
    "end": 652.19,
    "text": "And this is also, of course, what intrigued the Americans because they knew"
  },
  {
    "start": 652.19,
    "end": 656.39,
    "text": "what the Bauhaus was, certainly also because Moholy-Nagy had established"
  },
  {
    "start": 656.39,
    "end": 658.47,
    "text": "the new Bauhaus in Chicago."
  },
  {
    "start": 658.97,
    "end": 665.15,
    "text": "But sort of 20 years after the closing of the Bauhaus in Berlin, it was quite well known."
  },
  {
    "start": 665.47,
    "end": 672.41,
    "text": "So the Americans quite early on decided to establish also Max Bill as the founding rector."
  },
  {
    "start": 672.41,
    "end": 679.51,
    "text": "And, well, so we have lots of letters in the archives documenting this process"
  },
  {
    "start": 679.51,
    "end": 686.57,
    "text": "because we can then follow Max Bill's ideas, who he wanted to approach to teach in Ulm."
  },
  {
    "start": 686.69,
    "end": 692.89,
    "text": "And he eventually managed to find four former Bauhausers to come to Ulm to teach classes."
  },
  {
    "start": 693.21,
    "end": 698.49,
    "text": "And also he is discussing with Walter Gropius the naming of the school and also"
  },
  {
    "start": 698.49,
    "end": 700.23,
    "text": "part of the programming, actually."
  },
  {
    "start": 701.05,
    "end": 706.25,
    "text": "And so very early on, we can find a letter where he asks Walter Gropius for"
  },
  {
    "start": 706.25,
    "end": 709.59,
    "text": "permission to use the name \"Bauhaus Ulm\"."
  },
  {
    "start": 709.89,
    "end": 715.17,
    "text": "And Gropius is answering that, of course, he may do that, but he should be aware"
  },
  {
    "start": 715.17,
    "end": 719.29,
    "text": "that he sort of could awaken false expectations."
  },
  {
    "start": 719.61,
    "end": 723.99,
    "text": "And he would then have to take the brunt of it, was Gropius phrasing."
  },
  {
    "start": 724.75,
    "end": 730.11,
    "text": "And Aicher also very early on opposed the idea of calling the project Bauhaus"
  },
  {
    "start": 730.11,
    "end": 735.57,
    "text": "Ulm because he said we wanted to put our own stamp as this project and so they"
  },
  {
    "start": 735.57,
    "end": 741.39,
    "text": "decided on the name Hochschule für Gestaltung which again derives from the Bauhaus."
  },
  {
    "start": 741.59,
    "end": 747.83,
    "text": "The Bauhaus was called in Dessau \"Staatliches Bauhaus Dessau. Hochschule für Gestaltung\""
  },
  {
    "start": 747.83,
    "end": 752.81,
    "text": "and so they chose this subtitle as a name for the school in Ulm."
  },
  {
    "start": 753.37,
    "end": 760.13,
    "text": "So, why was it so natural for the Americans to decide on the Swiss Max Bill"
  },
  {
    "start": 760.13,
    "end": 764.85,
    "text": "to become head of the HfG Ulm and not on Otl Aicher or Ingersoll,"
  },
  {
    "start": 764.95,
    "end": 767.43,
    "text": "for example, or anyone else from Germany?"
  },
  {
    "start": 767.69,
    "end": 771.23,
    "text": "I mean, probably we don't have any documentation about this,"
  },
  {
    "start": 771.37,
    "end": 775.35,
    "text": "but I think it has to do with his being a Swiss person."
  },
  {
    "start": 775.49,
    "end": 779.93,
    "text": "I mean, he comes from a neutral country, so there is no sort of,"
  },
  {
    "start": 780.23,
    "end": 784.97,
    "text": "not a speck on his vest, I would say. He is completely clean politically."
  },
  {
    "start": 785.95,
    "end": 788.57,
    "text": "And of course, at the time, he's"
  },
  {
    "start": 788.57,
    "end": 793.29,
    "text": "a little senior than Otl Aicher and Inge Scholl. He was born in 1908."
  },
  {
    "start": 793.59,
    "end": 796.51,
    "text": "Inge Scholl was born in '17 and Aicher in '22."
  },
  {
    "start": 796.85,
    "end": 801.31,
    "text": "So he's the most senior person in the project and also a very well-known artist,"
  },
  {
    "start": 801.63,
    "end": 805.37,
    "text": "not only in Switzerland, but throughout Europe and also worldwide."
  },
  {
    "start": 805.37,
    "end": 809.75,
    "text": "He has very good connections to South America at the time. And also,"
  },
  {
    "start": 809.99,
    "end": 813.33,
    "text": "he is sort of interacting with the UNESCO."
  },
  {
    "start": 813.59,
    "end": 817.81,
    "text": "He has very good connections to Paris and the artists seen there."
  },
  {
    "start": 818.05,
    "end": 824.31,
    "text": "So I think this kind of prominence was also promising in a way to make the school"
  },
  {
    "start": 824.31,
    "end": 829.63,
    "text": "a success because neither Aicher was known at the time and Inge Scholl –"
  },
  {
    "start": 829.71,
    "end": 833.99,
    "text": "I mean, she was just very good at organizing, but she had no training in the"
  },
  {
    "start": 833.99,
    "end": 838.77,
    "text": "arts. Her father had a tax control office, and she had been educated within"
  },
  {
    "start": 838.77,
    "end": 841.33,
    "text": "his office, but she did not have any other training."
  },
  {
    "start": 842.07,
    "end": 846.65,
    "text": "And I think he just studied one year at the Munich Academy and then established"
  },
  {
    "start": 846.65,
    "end": 849.25,
    "text": "himself as an independent graphic designer in Ulm."
  },
  {
    "start": 849.31,
    "end": 855.23,
    "text": "So they were completely unknown at the time, and Bill had already an international reputation."
  },
  {
    "start": 855.45,
    "end": 860.51,
    "text": "And I think this is certainly the reason why the Americans would use him or"
  },
  {
    "start": 860.51,
    "end": 863.03,
    "text": "would establish him as the founding director."
  },
  {
    "start": 863.84,
    "end": 869.02,
    "text": "And also, which I found interesting, at first, within this group discussing"
  },
  {
    "start": 869.02,
    "end": 874.06,
    "text": "the idea of a Geschwister-Scholl-Hochschule, there was also Hans-Werner Richter."
  },
  {
    "start": 874.34,
    "end": 879.62,
    "text": "And Hans-Werner Richter would later become famous within German or West German"
  },
  {
    "start": 879.62,
    "end": 885.16,
    "text": "literary history for being the founder of the group \"Gruppe 47\","
  },
  {
    "start": 885.42,
    "end": 887.42,
    "text": "as it is called in German, \"Group 47\","
  },
  {
    "start": 887.76,
    "end": 891.1,
    "text": "which became a very influential literary group."
  },
  {
    "start": 891.1,
    "end": 896.94,
    "text": "The most known numbers are now certainly Günther Grass or Peter Handke,"
  },
  {
    "start": 897.18,
    "end": 899.54,
    "text": "who joined them in the 60s."
  },
  {
    "start": 899.82,
    "end": 905.9,
    "text": "But he had been criticizing the American idea of a re-education of the German"
  },
  {
    "start": 905.9,
    "end": 908.22,
    "text": "public in a leftist magazine."
  },
  {
    "start": 908.28,
    "end": 913.24,
    "text": "And so he sort of was pushed off the boat because of this criticism."
  },
  {
    "start": 913.86,
    "end": 917.42,
    "text": "In that respect, Bill was sort of, I think he was quite cunning."
  },
  {
    "start": 917.42,
    "end": 921.26,
    "text": "He knew that he could build one of the biggest structures ever in his life."
  },
  {
    "start": 921.26,
    "end": 923.14,
    "text": "He was very interested in this project."
  },
  {
    "start": 923.46,
    "end": 929.9,
    "text": "And that could also be another reason, I guess, because he was devising the building of the school."
  },
  {
    "start": 930.1,
    "end": 935.56,
    "text": "And of course, that was also a major factor for the success of the school,"
  },
  {
    "start": 935.68,
    "end": 940.74,
    "text": "that they would be able to build a new building similar to the Bauhaus, of course, in Dessau."
  },
  {
    "start": 942.48,
    "end": 945.66,
    "text": "So you already mentioned that Otl Aicher actually"
  },
  {
    "start": 945.66,
    "end": 952.44,
    "text": "wanted to put a very own stamp so to speak on the HfG Ulm and Max Bill on the"
  },
  {
    "start": 952.44,
    "end": 957.1,
    "text": "other hand he wanted a successor of the Bauhaus. So, what did it become? What were"
  },
  {
    "start": 957.1,
    "end": 963.5,
    "text": "the aims of this school and could you still find parallels to the Bauhaus in Dessau?"
  },
  {
    "start": 964.62,
    "end": 967.52,
    "text": "Yeah, we have to look at the development of the school."
  },
  {
    "start": 967.76,
    "end": 973.48,
    "text": "The school, as you might know, was closed, has dissolved itself in 1968."
  },
  {
    "start": 973.52,
    "end": 975.92,
    "text": "So it had a very brief lifespan."
  },
  {
    "start": 976.26,
    "end": 979.96,
    "text": "And so there are several phases. And in the first two to three years,"
  },
  {
    "start": 980.06,
    "end": 986.36,
    "text": "it was indeed similar to the Bauhaus because former Bauhaus level did bring in Ulm."
  },
  {
    "start": 986.8,
    "end": 991.6,
    "text": "And of course, also the structure of the building was in some ways similar to"
  },
  {
    "start": 991.6,
    "end": 997.36,
    "text": "the Bauhaus. And then with the younger generation, it developed into a different direction."
  },
  {
    "start": 997.7,
    "end": 1002.76,
    "text": "But the best element where we can grasp the direct connection to the Bauhaus"
  },
  {
    "start": 1002.76,
    "end": 1007.06,
    "text": "is the Grundlehre in Ulm, the basic design course,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1007.2,
    "end": 1014.82,
    "text": "which is directly oriented on the famous Vorlehre at the Bauhaus founded by"
  },
  {
    "start": 1014.82,
    "end": 1018.1,
    "text": "Johannes Itten in the Bauhaus in Weimar."
  },
  {
    "start": 1018.1,
    "end": 1024.68,
    "text": "And Bill managed indeed to find four former Bauhausers to teach in Ulm."
  },
  {
    "start": 1025.04,
    "end": 1028.88,
    "text": "Walter Peterhans, who taught the first course in 1953."
  },
  {
    "start": 1029.68,
    "end": 1035.08,
    "text": "Helene Nonne-Schmidt, Josef Albers, who came twice and for only one week they"
  },
  {
    "start": 1035.08,
    "end": 1041.5,
    "text": "also invited Johannes Itten, the founder of the Bauhaus, to teach at the school."
  },
  {
    "start": 1042.22,
    "end": 1048.06,
    "text": "And so in the first year, again, this is important, the first year was compulsory for all students."
  },
  {
    "start": 1048.3,
    "end": 1054.1,
    "text": "You could not sort of jump over the first year if you had already done a similar education."
  },
  {
    "start": 1054.52,
    "end": 1056.1,
    "text": "So it was compulsory."
  },
  {
    "start": 1056.96,
    "end": 1063.66,
    "text": "And again, this is very similar to what the Bauhaus had in mind for the education of their students."
  },
  {
    "start": 1064.1,
    "end": 1067.54,
    "text": "I don't know if you know that, but probably do as head of the archive,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1067.54,
    "end": 1072.12,
    "text": "because you know all the documents in the archives. So what was the content"
  },
  {
    "start": 1072.12,
    "end": 1075.68,
    "text": "of the Grundlehre at the HfG Ulm that Peterhans taught?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1075.84,
    "end": 1081.12,
    "text": "Was it very similar to what Albus, Moholy-Nagy or Itten did at the Bauhaus"
  },
  {
    "start": 1081.12,
    "end": 1083.18,
    "text": "or was it something completely different and new?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1083.58,
    "end": 1086.88,
    "text": "It was something completely different and new actually."
  },
  {
    "start": 1087.76,
    "end": 1091.66,
    "text": "Peterhans was the founder of the photography class at the Bauhaus but did not"
  },
  {
    "start": 1091.66,
    "end": 1096.1,
    "text": "teach, to my knowledge, any Vorkurs at the Bauhaus. He had to emigrate,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1096.34,
    "end": 1100.58,
    "text": "and Amis van der Rohe asked him to join him in Chicago."
  },
  {
    "start": 1101.02,
    "end": 1105.22,
    "text": "And there he introduced a course which he called Visual Training,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1105.6,
    "end": 1108.94,
    "text": "which is still being taught today, actually."
  },
  {
    "start": 1109.44,
    "end": 1113.66,
    "text": "And this set of assignments he brought with him to Ulm."
  },
  {
    "start": 1113.88,
    "end": 1119.02,
    "text": "And thanks to the documentation of the students and also very elaborate notes"
  },
  {
    "start": 1119.02,
    "end": 1124.28,
    "text": "by Otl Aicher, We know exactly everything, what he wanted to do with these assignments,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1124.5,
    "end": 1125.64,
    "text": "what the assignments were,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1126.06,
    "end": 1129.98,
    "text": "even what kind of material they were supposed to buy and you."
  },
  {
    "start": 1130.88,
    "end": 1136.58,
    "text": "And so this is a very different approach to Albers especially,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1136.58,
    "end": 1143.98,
    "text": "I would say, because we have also letters exchanged between Bill and Peterhans."
  },
  {
    "start": 1144.74,
    "end": 1149.66,
    "text": "Bill had tried to keep Peterhans in Ulm, but was not really successful."
  },
  {
    "start": 1149.92,
    "end": 1154.54,
    "text": "And Peterhans had to leave again back to the States."
  },
  {
    "start": 1154.96,
    "end": 1160.5,
    "text": "And in one of the letters, Peterhans is really criticizing the approach of Albus, for example."
  },
  {
    "start": 1160.86,
    "end": 1169.42,
    "text": "So he said, well, I have seen so many folding classes of the Bauhaus kindergarten, as he actually says."
  },
  {
    "start": 1169.7,
    "end": 1173.1,
    "text": "Basically, he says, I don't see any future in this kind of approach."
  },
  {
    "start": 1173.1,
    "end": 1176.56,
    "text": "And yeah, that's really an interesting turn of events, I guess."
  },
  {
    "start": 1177.0,
    "end": 1181.6,
    "text": "And so Albers again, then he had been head of the forecourse at the Bauhaus."
  },
  {
    "start": 1181.8,
    "end": 1186.86,
    "text": "And we should not forget that again, Albers had to emigrate and he was teaching"
  },
  {
    "start": 1186.86,
    "end": 1189.58,
    "text": "at Black Mountain College in North Carolina."
  },
  {
    "start": 1189.86,
    "end": 1195.5,
    "text": "And there he used assignments from the Bauhaus time, but also he developed new"
  },
  {
    "start": 1195.5,
    "end": 1199.8,
    "text": "assignments and these in combination he brought back to Ulm."
  },
  {
    "start": 1200.75,
    "end": 1205.51,
    "text": "And so his approach was more like trial and error. He allowed intuition."
  },
  {
    "start": 1206.53,
    "end": 1210.57,
    "text": "And what I like, and which is sort of quite contemporary for today,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1210.75,
    "end": 1215.07,
    "text": "he sort of sent the students out to the city to collect material,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1215.29,
    "end": 1217.15,
    "text": "and they had to use found materials."
  },
  {
    "start": 1217.37,
    "end": 1223.85,
    "text": "They were not allowed to buy anything, and they had to be very economic about the use of material."
  },
  {
    "start": 1224.55,
    "end": 1228.57,
    "text": "But if you compare the results of the assignments of Peterhans and Albers,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1228.75,
    "end": 1230.39,
    "text": "they are really completely different."
  },
  {
    "start": 1230.75,
    "end": 1235.89,
    "text": "With Helene Nonne-Schmidt, it was quite a systematic approach because she was"
  },
  {
    "start": 1235.89,
    "end": 1240.33,
    "text": "teaching color theory and color systematics."
  },
  {
    "start": 1241.27,
    "end": 1245.37,
    "text": "And what is interesting, that she also taught the color theory or the color"
  },
  {
    "start": 1245.37,
    "end": 1250.61,
    "text": "system, I should rather say, by Ostwald, who famously gave one lecture at the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1250.61,
    "end": 1254.29,
    "text": "Bauhaus in the late 20s, which she most likely heard."
  },
  {
    "start": 1254.65,
    "end": 1259.61,
    "text": "So his color system was that a printer in the US, a printer in Italy,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1259.81,
    "end": 1264.51,
    "text": "a printer in France would be able to reproduce the exact kind of blue,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1264.53,
    "end": 1268.75,
    "text": "maybe, or yellow, or so on, based on his color system."
  },
  {
    "start": 1268.75,
    "end": 1273.11,
    "text": "And students had to do these selection of assignments connected to that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1273.65,
    "end": 1278.03,
    "text": "Helene Nonne-Schmidt, she had known Bill at the Bauhaus actually as a student"
  },
  {
    "start": 1278.03,
    "end": 1284.53,
    "text": "and she had also studied with Paul Klee and so she also taught the way Paul"
  },
  {
    "start": 1284.53,
    "end": 1289.21,
    "text": "Klee had used watercolor and so he was a very important source, I guess,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1289.35,
    "end": 1293.21,
    "text": "for the direct connection with the Bauhaus because Bill himself,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1293.21,
    "end": 1296.01,
    "text": "he did not teach as much as he should have."
  },
  {
    "start": 1297.31,
    "end": 1303.07,
    "text": "And lastly, Johannes Ittern, he was there only for one week and was teaching"
  },
  {
    "start": 1303.07,
    "end": 1308.91,
    "text": "assignments similar to what he did at the Bauhaus already, the warm-cold contrast,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1309.43,
    "end": 1312.51,
    "text": "the light-dark contrast, and so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 1312.65,
    "end": 1318.99,
    "text": "And what he also did was his famous relaxation exercises at the beginning of the class."
  },
  {
    "start": 1319.67,
    "end": 1323.89,
    "text": "And we have photographs of the students not really enjoying this."
  },
  {
    "start": 1324.03,
    "end": 1327.39,
    "text": "Because at the time, yoga was not a thing in Germany, of course."
  },
  {
    "start": 1327.63,
    "end": 1331.61,
    "text": "And they just didn't seem to understand what he wanted to do with it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1331.79,
    "end": 1333.99,
    "text": "But that's more of a fun fact, I would say."
  },
  {
    "start": 1334.45,
    "end": 1334.65,
    "text": "Okay."
  },
  {
    "start": 1335.42,
    "end": 1339.7,
    "text": "Well, you already mentioned that Max Bill didn't teach as much as he should"
  },
  {
    "start": 1339.7,
    "end": 1342.72,
    "text": "have at the HfG, but I'm not letting you get away with that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1343.04,
    "end": 1347.96,
    "text": "Just like that. What did he teach at the HfG and what should he have taught maybe?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1348.54,
    "end": 1353.82,
    "text": "Well, I think it was not so clearly decided what he should be teaching or how much."
  },
  {
    "start": 1354.18,
    "end": 1359.74,
    "text": "I mean, he was the director, but he always kept his private architectural practice in Zurich."
  },
  {
    "start": 1359.86,
    "end": 1362.52,
    "text": "So he was also moving between the two cities."
  },
  {
    "start": 1363.32,
    "end": 1370.74,
    "text": "So what he did teach in the Grundlehre was a, we call it in the German, the Würfelaufgabe."
  },
  {
    "start": 1370.94,
    "end": 1377.56,
    "text": "So the students had to make a cube with the length of 10 centimeters in plaster."
  },
  {
    "start": 1377.84,
    "end": 1381.78,
    "text": "This had to be very, very exact. And we have photographs of this project."
  },
  {
    "start": 1382.18,
    "end": 1385.74,
    "text": "And then he also did gradations of gray."
  },
  {
    "start": 1386.38,
    "end": 1391.46,
    "text": "This sounds very abstract, which is in a way you would use grids."
  },
  {
    "start": 1391.46,
    "end": 1396.96,
    "text": "And you would sort of make the grids always denser, which means the distances"
  },
  {
    "start": 1396.96,
    "end": 1401.26,
    "text": "between the lines would become less and less from square to square."
  },
  {
    "start": 1401.4,
    "end": 1405.54,
    "text": "And by this, you would change from a light gray to an almost black."
  },
  {
    "start": 1406.18,
    "end": 1410.42,
    "text": "So again, this is very similar to a color systematic in a way."
  },
  {
    "start": 1410.82,
    "end": 1415.14,
    "text": "And there are several assignments which we can relate to Max Bill,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1415.38,
    "end": 1420.42,
    "text": "but we do not have many examples in our archive from the students."
  },
  {
    "start": 1420.42,
    "end": 1427.14,
    "text": "We have much more examples of the courses by Helene Nonne-Schmidt or by Walter Peterhans, actually."
  },
  {
    "start": 1428.34,
    "end": 1432.72,
    "text": "But now that you've described the content of the courses that all those former"
  },
  {
    "start": 1432.72,
    "end": 1437.4,
    "text": "Bauhausers gave at the HfG, it seems to me that they took the framework of the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1437.4,
    "end": 1439.82,
    "text": "Bauhaus, but they evolved it, of course,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1439.98,
    "end": 1446.38,
    "text": "during the past years between the end of the Bauhaus in 1933 and the start of the HfG in 1953."
  },
  {
    "start": 1446.38,
    "end": 1453.3,
    "text": "So that's 20 years – roughly – in between and very moving 20 years in between politically"
  },
  {
    "start": 1453.3,
    "end": 1456.94,
    "text": "seen in Germany, but probably also personally for all of them."
  },
  {
    "start": 1457.97,
    "end": 1462.99,
    "text": "Especially the grid system, the cube grid system that you just discussed,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1463.19,
    "end": 1467.23,
    "text": "this one task of Max Bild at the Havge, it seems to be,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1467.41,
    "end": 1472.07,
    "text": "for me, listening to that, it doesn't have to do with the Bauhaus at all,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1472.25,
    "end": 1476.25,
    "text": "what was taught at the Bauhaus, but it seems to be much more into concrete art,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1476.25,
    "end": 1478.39,
    "text": "what he did afterwards. Am I right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1478.39,
    "end": 1484.43,
    "text": "I totally agree with this. I mean, this is very important to mention that in"
  },
  {
    "start": 1484.43,
    "end": 1491.07,
    "text": "the early 30s, Max Bill was in Paris and he was part of the group \"Abstraction–Création\","
  },
  {
    "start": 1491.47,
    "end": 1499.07,
    "text": "which famously developed the idea of Concrete Art or Concrete in opposition to abstract art."
  },
  {
    "start": 1499.07,
    "end": 1503.49,
    "text": "And this, again, is one of his major contributions to art history, of course."
  },
  {
    "start": 1503.83,
    "end": 1509.35,
    "text": "And what you're mentioning there is one of the grounds for the reasons,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1509.65,
    "end": 1512.85,
    "text": "I should say, for the future conflict within the school."
  },
  {
    "start": 1513.79,
    "end": 1518.81,
    "text": "Because Max Bill always believed that art could be a guideline,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1518.81,
    "end": 1521.41,
    "text": "could be a guidance for designers."
  },
  {
    "start": 1522.19,
    "end": 1526.61,
    "text": "Although they were sort of stressing the point that the Ulm School of Design"
  },
  {
    "start": 1526.61,
    "end": 1530.93,
    "text": "was not an art school. This is, again, a very important fight,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1531.17,
    "end": 1535.89,
    "text": "they fought, because they said, we need to educate industrial designers."
  },
  {
    "start": 1536.07,
    "end": 1542.81,
    "text": "But Bild was nevertheless giving the arts the first role within design."
  },
  {
    "start": 1543.03,
    "end": 1546.65,
    "text": "And this idea was proposed very much by the younger generation,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1546.93,
    "end": 1549.13,
    "text": "especially Tomás Maldonado."
  },
  {
    "start": 1549.13,
    "end": 1554.63,
    "text": "And again, this development, we can grow up quite easily within the context"
  },
  {
    "start": 1554.63,
    "end": 1558.57,
    "text": "of the Grundlehre, the first year, which was compulsory for everyone."
  },
  {
    "start": 1558.89,
    "end": 1563.69,
    "text": "And ironically, it was Tomás Maldonado who, together with Aicher."
  },
  {
    "start": 1564.81,
    "end": 1567.35,
    "text": "sort of were chasing Max Bill away."
  },
  {
    "start": 1567.51,
    "end": 1573.43,
    "text": "We could formulate it like that. So in 1954, Maldonado arrived at the school."
  },
  {
    "start": 1575.72,
    "end": 1578.66,
    "text": "Tomás Maldonado was born in Argentina in 1922."
  },
  {
    "start": 1578.96,
    "end": 1586.04,
    "text": "He was trained as a painter, so he's also part of the great movement of concrete artists."
  },
  {
    "start": 1586.6,
    "end": 1592.48,
    "text": "And in this function, he came to Switzerland because he was interested in Max"
  },
  {
    "start": 1592.48,
    "end": 1595.2,
    "text": "Bill and wanted to write a book about him."
  },
  {
    "start": 1596.2,
    "end": 1599.36,
    "text": "And also interestingly, in 1948,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1599.78,
    "end": 1604.28,
    "text": "when first Otl Aicher and Inge Scholl visited Max Bill On the same day,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1604.44,
    "end": 1609.4,
    "text": "Tomás Maldonado was also at Max Bill's house, and so these four people met"
  },
  {
    "start": 1609.4,
    "end": 1614.44,
    "text": "at this occasion, not knowing what they would be doing some years later."
  },
  {
    "start": 1614.8,
    "end": 1620.04,
    "text": "And so in 1954, Maldonado joined the school on the invitation of Max Bill."
  },
  {
    "start": 1620.7,
    "end": 1628.78,
    "text": "And in 1955, he already was head of the Grundlehre and introduced his own set of assignments."
  },
  {
    "start": 1629.62,
    "end": 1633.4,
    "text": "And they were again completely different from Peterhans,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1633.58,
    "end": 1640.06,
    "text": "from Albers and of course from Itten. And they were a group of assignments where"
  },
  {
    "start": 1640.06,
    "end": 1644.58,
    "text": "I find you had to understand them intellectually before you would even be able"
  },
  {
    "start": 1644.58,
    "end": 1648.56,
    "text": "to put pen or pencil to paper."
  },
  {
    "start": 1648.56,
    "end": 1657.76,
    "text": "So what we can find here is that he is pushing the idea of establishing design,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1658.08,
    "end": 1664.04,
    "text": "industrial design, as a scientific discipline rather than an artistic discipline."
  },
  {
    "start": 1664.04,
    "end": 1671.02,
    "text": "And so later in '58 and at that time Bill had already left but I guess these"
  },
  {
    "start": 1671.02,
    "end": 1674.82,
    "text": "ideas were already there within Maldonado's thinking."
  },
  {
    "start": 1675.1,
    "end": 1680.82,
    "text": "In 1958 Tomás Maldonado gives a lecture in Brussels on the occasion of the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1680.82,
    "end": 1685.62,
    "text": "World Fair and there was a design conference on this occasion and there he talks about"
  },
  {
    "start": 1686.64,
    "end": 1692.48,
    "text": "the Bauhaus, but also about the fact that he thinks the Bauhaus was no longer valid"
  },
  {
    "start": 1692.48,
    "end": 1695.54,
    "text": "as a guidance for the design education."
  },
  {
    "start": 1695.98,
    "end": 1701.28,
    "text": "And of course, this is a very elaborate discussion, but basically he says that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1701.28,
    "end": 1705.92,
    "text": "the Bauhaus was still too much like an artist's school and the products they"
  },
  {
    "start": 1705.92,
    "end": 1712.98,
    "text": "designed were too much relying on arts and crafts rather than industrial production ways."
  },
  {
    "start": 1713.5,
    "end": 1719.28,
    "text": "So they should no longer use the Bauhaus as a guideline, but they had to develop their own guidelines."
  },
  {
    "start": 1719.56,
    "end": 1725.02,
    "text": "And he gives the Ulm School as the ideal school at the time at Litz for this"
  },
  {
    "start": 1725.02,
    "end": 1726.66,
    "text": "kind of new design education."
  },
  {
    "start": 1727.14,
    "end": 1732.92,
    "text": "And so what comes out of that and out of this discussion is a model which the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1732.92,
    "end": 1735.36,
    "text": "Ulm School later called the Ulm model."
  },
  {
    "start": 1736.08,
    "end": 1745.64,
    "text": "But this intense opposition to the ideas of the Bauhaus was really sort of chasing Max Bill away."
  },
  {
    "start": 1746.04,
    "end": 1750.26,
    "text": "But of course, Max Bill was not chased away so easily, I would say."
  },
  {
    "start": 1750.5,
    "end": 1753.48,
    "text": "But there was a big conflict also within the school."
  },
  {
    "start": 1753.82,
    "end": 1759.9,
    "text": "And the whole conflict sort of exploded because apparently Max Bill had put"
  },
  {
    "start": 1759.9,
    "end": 1766.46,
    "text": "a sign on his rooms saying \"Atelier Max Bill\", or \"Atelier Bill\","
  },
  {
    "start": 1766.66,
    "end": 1768.18,
    "text": "meaning class of Max Bill,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1768.7,
    "end": 1770.92,
    "text": "sort of a members-only entry."
  },
  {
    "start": 1771.32,
    "end": 1777.16,
    "text": "And this, of course, was opposed to the idea of the school with very low hierarchies"
  },
  {
    "start": 1777.16,
    "end": 1783.38,
    "text": "and, of course, not a typical masterclass system like they had at the traditional"
  },
  {
    "start": 1783.38,
    "end": 1785.76,
    "text": "art academies, like a Beaux-Arts tradition."
  },
  {
    "start": 1786.85,
    "end": 1792.39,
    "text": "And so, because he had already stepped down as a rector of the school in '56,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1792.89,
    "end": 1797.39,
    "text": "and then they had established a sort of a group of rectors, including Maldonado"
  },
  {
    "start": 1797.39,
    "end": 1798.95,
    "text": "and Aicher and two others."
  },
  {
    "start": 1799.19,
    "end": 1802.87,
    "text": "And they sort of wrote a letter to him and said, well, what you are doing is"
  },
  {
    "start": 1802.87,
    "end": 1805.77,
    "text": "not within the guidelines of the school."
  },
  {
    "start": 1805.95,
    "end": 1811.41,
    "text": "You are sort of interruptive of our ideas and you give the impression of a school"
  },
  {
    "start": 1811.41,
    "end": 1813.51,
    "text": "within the school and we don't want that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1813.71,
    "end": 1818.37,
    "text": "Please stop it. And Bill did not accept this. And so in 1957,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1818.71,
    "end": 1820.41,
    "text": "he left the school altogether."
  },
  {
    "start": 1821.05,
    "end": 1824.03,
    "text": "But he took about 20 students with him,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1824.19,
    "end": 1829.55,
    "text": "who then sort of worked out an agreement with the directors of the school in"
  },
  {
    "start": 1829.55,
    "end": 1835.41,
    "text": "Ulm that they would be able to take their diploma within the Bill Atelier in"
  },
  {
    "start": 1835.41,
    "end": 1837.69,
    "text": "Zurich. Some of them did, not all of them did."
  },
  {
    "start": 1837.87,
    "end": 1842.37,
    "text": "And so you see, this was already a very explosive situation."
  },
  {
    "start": 1842.37,
    "end": 1847.53,
    "text": "I mean, also losing 20 students, because at the time, the school did not have"
  },
  {
    "start": 1847.53,
    "end": 1850.23,
    "text": "as many students as it later have."
  },
  {
    "start": 1850.71,
    "end": 1855.99,
    "text": "But some of the students had expressly come to Ulm because they wanted to study"
  },
  {
    "start": 1855.99,
    "end": 1860.47,
    "text": "at the Neubauhaus with a former Bauhausler and, of course, with Max Bill."
  },
  {
    "start": 1860.47,
    "end": 1866.45,
    "text": "And again, you see here his prominence and his being well known within the art"
  },
  {
    "start": 1866.45,
    "end": 1868.31,
    "text": "and design world at the time."
  },
  {
    "start": 1869.4,
    "end": 1875.5,
    "text": "I think it's kind of ironic that it's history repeating because what happened"
  },
  {
    "start": 1875.5,
    "end": 1877.44,
    "text": "at the Bauhaus when Hannes Meyer came,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1877.64,
    "end": 1883.64,
    "text": "he wanted to take the art out of the design process and put technology into"
  },
  {
    "start": 1883.64,
    "end": 1885.86,
    "text": "the foreground and the work with the industry."
  },
  {
    "start": 1886.78,
    "end": 1890.22,
    "text": "And now what's happened at the HfG is that Max Bill,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1890.36,
    "end": 1894.64,
    "text": "who studied under Hannes Meyer at the Bauhaus in 1928, he"
  },
  {
    "start": 1894.64,
    "end": 1897.64,
    "text": "does the complete contrary and switches to oh"
  },
  {
    "start": 1897.64,
    "end": 1900.92,
    "text": "we put the art on top of everything again"
  },
  {
    "start": 1900.92,
    "end": 1903.94,
    "text": "and that you know everything that Hannes Meyer"
  },
  {
    "start": 1903.94,
    "end": 1907.2,
    "text": "did when he was at the Bauhaus he switches at"
  },
  {
    "start": 1907.2,
    "end": 1910.24,
    "text": "the HfG and it becomes fatal for his"
  },
  {
    "start": 1910.24,
    "end": 1913.22,
    "text": "position at the HfG because also Hannes"
  },
  {
    "start": 1913.22,
    "end": 1916.14,
    "text": "Meyer he was all about the collective and not about"
  },
  {
    "start": 1916.14,
    "end": 1919.42,
    "text": "the individual this is my office and"
  },
  {
    "start": 1919.42,
    "end": 1922.54,
    "text": "you are only allowed to do this and that if you're in my office and"
  },
  {
    "start": 1922.54,
    "end": 1925.5,
    "text": "I am the head or stuff like that but no it was the contrary"
  },
  {
    "start": 1925.5,
    "end": 1929.98,
    "text": "it was we are the collective and the individual is not important the outcome"
  },
  {
    "start": 1929.98,
    "end": 1936.14,
    "text": "is important and I find kind of ironic that Max Bill does it the other way around"
  },
  {
    "start": 1936.14,
    "end": 1944.34,
    "text": "and that this is what the younger people find unattractive about him at the HfG."
  },
  {
    "start": 1944.7,
    "end": 1952.68,
    "text": "Good point and I think this also indicates in a way how political this founding"
  },
  {
    "start": 1952.68,
    "end": 1954.92,
    "text": "of the Ulm School of Design was,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1955.08,
    "end": 1959.76,
    "text": "of course similar to the Bauhaus, because we should not forget that the Ulm"
  },
  {
    "start": 1959.76,
    "end": 1963.18,
    "text": "School of Design was funded by the Americans,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1963.88,
    "end": 1967.5,
    "text": "and I was talking about this condition that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1967.5,
    "end": 1971.6,
    "text": "the Americans said we will fund the school with one million mark if the German"
  },
  {
    "start": 1971.6,
    "end": 1978.2,
    "text": "side would also donate as much money and to me I think the idea behind this"
  },
  {
    "start": 1978.2,
    "end": 1985.26,
    "text": "is to make the Germans accept the heritage of the Geschwister Scholl, of Hansen's official,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1985.46,
    "end": 1987.6,
    "text": "and their fight against the Nazi regime."
  },
  {
    "start": 1988.36,
    "end": 1992.54,
    "text": "Because at the time, as I told you, they were not known internationally,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1992.54,
    "end": 1997.18,
    "text": "but within Germany, and especially within conservative circles,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1997.5,
    "end": 2002.62,
    "text": "not only the White Rose group, but also Stauffenberg, who was fighting in 1944"
  },
  {
    "start": 2002.62,
    "end": 2004.46,
    "text": "against Hitler with his bombing,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2005.02,
    "end": 2007.08,
    "text": "they were considered as traitors."
  },
  {
    "start": 2007.52,
    "end": 2012.62,
    "text": "And so only in 1953, there was a jurisdiction that it was forbidden to call"
  },
  {
    "start": 2012.62,
    "end": 2018.3,
    "text": "them traitors or \"Vaterlandsverräter\" or \"Nestbeschmutzer\" as they were called in German."
  },
  {
    "start": 2018.82,
    "end": 2023.56,
    "text": "And another thing is, I didn't talk about this, but it's a very telling episode actually."
  },
  {
    "start": 2023.86,
    "end": 2028.0,
    "text": "So I talked about that Ingles Scholl needed to collect this money."
  },
  {
    "start": 2028.0,
    "end": 2036.2,
    "text": "And when she did, she managed to get a donation of steel by the steel industry."
  },
  {
    "start": 2036.74,
    "end": 2042.5,
    "text": "And so Bill could devise the building as a steel skeleton building."
  },
  {
    "start": 2043.8,
    "end": 2052.0,
    "text": "But in 1950, a former Gestapo informant, he launched a defamation campaign."
  },
  {
    "start": 2053.04,
    "end": 2058.2,
    "text": "And he said, not only Hans and Sophie, but also Otl Aicher and Inge and maybe"
  },
  {
    "start": 2058.2,
    "end": 2063.92,
    "text": "even Bill, they have leftists, a tendency if they are not even communists."
  },
  {
    "start": 2064.42,
    "end": 2070.22,
    "text": "And in 1950, this was the high tide of the McCarthy era in Washington,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2070.22,
    "end": 2076.66,
    "text": "where this infamous guy, McCarthy, was sort of hunting communists."
  },
  {
    "start": 2076.88,
    "end": 2080.88,
    "text": "And we know this from the lives of Bertolt Precht or also from Thomas Mann."
  },
  {
    "start": 2081.18,
    "end": 2085.9,
    "text": "They had to appear in front of commissions to prove that they were not communists"
  },
  {
    "start": 2085.9,
    "end": 2088.52,
    "text": "or at least to exculpate themselves."
  },
  {
    "start": 2089.18,
    "end": 2093.08,
    "text": "And that's the reason, for example, why Thomas Mann decided to leave the U.S."
  },
  {
    "start": 2093.2,
    "end": 2097.38,
    "text": "Because he could not tolerate this kind of treatment. For the Ulm project,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2097.56,
    "end": 2102.32,
    "text": "it meant that they lost one year because they needed a lot of time to sort of"
  },
  {
    "start": 2102.32,
    "end": 2105.88,
    "text": "tell the Americans, no, we are not communists and so on and so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 2105.92,
    "end": 2109.74,
    "text": "We have letters of Bill trying to explain the situation."
  },
  {
    "start": 2110.44,
    "end": 2113.34,
    "text": "But all this process takes about one year."
  },
  {
    "start": 2114.22,
    "end": 2120.72,
    "text": "But as soon as this sort of defamation campaign begins and these claims are"
  },
  {
    "start": 2120.72,
    "end": 2125.08,
    "text": "in the world, the steel industry sort of renounces this formation."
  },
  {
    "start": 2126.6,
    "end": 2132.7,
    "text": "And so Bill had to change the building into a concrete steel skeleton building"
  },
  {
    "start": 2132.7,
    "end": 2139.24,
    "text": "because even after everything was resolved, the steel industry did not renew this donation."
  },
  {
    "start": 2139.58,
    "end": 2144.54,
    "text": "And I'm telling you this only because very rightly mentioned Hannes Meyer and"
  },
  {
    "start": 2144.54,
    "end": 2148.76,
    "text": "his ideas, but I think at the time it was of course known that Hannes Meyer"
  },
  {
    "start": 2148.76,
    "end": 2154.0,
    "text": "was a communist and he had left Germany to go to the Soviet Union."
  },
  {
    "start": 2154.0,
    "end": 2158.58,
    "text": "And given the background of the American situation, it would not have been helpful"
  },
  {
    "start": 2158.58,
    "end": 2163.62,
    "text": "for the Ulm School of Design to relate to Hannes Meyer, I would suppose."
  },
  {
    "start": 2164.16,
    "end": 2168.0,
    "text": "And this actually would be quite interesting to look into at the time,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2168.14,
    "end": 2171.32,
    "text": "because later at the Ulm School of Design, but this is another story,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2171.8,
    "end": 2178.58,
    "text": "there was a student called Claude Schneid, who was also later a lecturer here at the school."
  },
  {
    "start": 2178.58,
    "end": 2184.14,
    "text": "And he wrote the first biography of Hannes Meyer, actually. But there you see"
  },
  {
    "start": 2184.14,
    "end": 2189.56,
    "text": "how politics and design and intentions are closely knit together."
  },
  {
    "start": 2190.34,
    "end": 2194.62,
    "text": "And I mean, they were simply very interested in secure the public funding."
  },
  {
    "start": 2194.84,
    "end": 2201.22,
    "text": "And so they could not have any large political differences within the school at that time, at least."
  },
  {
    "start": 2202.4,
    "end": 2208.68,
    "text": "And it's the most surprising that Max Bill, you said that he switched from steel"
  },
  {
    "start": 2208.68,
    "end": 2211.84,
    "text": "skeleton to concrete skeleton building."
  },
  {
    "start": 2212.28,
    "end": 2217.4,
    "text": "And I always felt reminded, well, I once visited your archive as well,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2217.52,
    "end": 2223.72,
    "text": "a couple of years ago, I think 2018, it was to research for the Bauhaus Imaginista project."
  },
  {
    "start": 2223.72,
    "end": 2226.56,
    "text": "And when I arrived at the"
  },
  {
    "start": 2226.56,
    "end": 2229.2,
    "text": "HfG I felt so reminded of the"
  },
  {
    "start": 2229.2,
    "end": 2234.04,
    "text": "Trade Union School here in Bernau which I live really close by like 10 minutes"
  },
  {
    "start": 2234.04,
    "end": 2240.76,
    "text": "away from there and I was so surprised because the staggering of the different"
  },
  {
    "start": 2240.76,
    "end": 2247.8,
    "text": "building parts into the nature like the hilly side and especially the concrete skeleton,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2247.8,
    "end": 2249.9,
    "text": "it looked so familiar."
  },
  {
    "start": 2249.9,
    "end": 2256.04,
    "text": "And I thought entering the building that he must have copied the trade union"
  },
  {
    "start": 2256.04,
    "end": 2260.56,
    "text": "school from Hannes Meyer and modernized it like 20 years later on."
  },
  {
    "start": 2260.72,
    "end": 2264.18,
    "text": "It's the most surprising that the Americans didn't see that,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2264.32,
    "end": 2268.8,
    "text": "but probably because the Trade Union School was on German democratic grounds,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2268.98,
    "end": 2271.8,
    "text": "so on GDR grounds, and they didn't know it."
  },
  {
    "start": 2271.9,
    "end": 2276.68,
    "text": "And it was quite famous in the 30s but afterwards during second world war i"
  },
  {
    "start": 2276.68,
    "end": 2279.44,
    "text": "think it became unknown kind of ..."
  },
  {
    "start": 2279.44,
    "end": 2282.4,
    "text": "Yes i think you're absolutely right and i mean my"
  },
  {
    "start": 2282.4,
    "end": 2287.8,
    "text": "predecessors they published a book about the building they were also using Hannes"
  },
  {
    "start": 2287.8,
    "end": 2293.58,
    "text": "Meyer's school as a comparison and when bill was at the bauhaus we know that"
  },
  {
    "start": 2293.58,
    "end": 2300.18,
    "text": "Hannes Meyer was designing the Gewerkschaftsschule already though he might have seen plans."
  },
  {
    "start": 2300.32,
    "end": 2305.58,
    "text": "We don't know that. But what I found most striking and a very nice person at"
  },
  {
    "start": 2305.58,
    "end": 2312.38,
    "text": "the visitor center in Bernau pointed out to me the former design of the Bernau"
  },
  {
    "start": 2312.38,
    "end": 2319.74,
    "text": "school with these three really massive chimneys really raising high about the main facade."
  },
  {
    "start": 2320.72,
    "end": 2325.74,
    "text": "And this is quite similar to the big chimney we have in front of the Mensa,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2325.84,
    "end": 2328.54,
    "text": "in front of the cafeteria here in Ulm."
  },
  {
    "start": 2328.76,
    "end": 2334.54,
    "text": "And I think here he is really quoting, or at least referring to the appearance"
  },
  {
    "start": 2334.54,
    "end": 2340.24,
    "text": "of the Bernau School and also sort of stressing the point that this is a school of industrial design."
  },
  {
    "start": 2340.42,
    "end": 2344.16,
    "text": "Because, I mean, the chimney itself is in a way a symbol of industry."
  },
  {
    "start": 2344.16,
    "end": 2348.7,
    "text": "Yeah, of course. The trade union school in Bernau was mockingly called by the"
  },
  {
    "start": 2348.7,
    "end": 2353.4,
    "text": "public the education factory because of those three chimneys."
  },
  {
    "start": 2353.6,
    "end": 2357.7,
    "text": "And while you've probably been in the dining hall as well and seen this big"
  },
  {
    "start": 2357.7,
    "end": 2364.24,
    "text": "glass facade and you can open half of the windows with just turning one wheel"
  },
  {
    "start": 2364.24,
    "end": 2366.02,
    "text": "and the other half turning another one."
  },
  {
    "start": 2366.18,
    "end": 2369.04,
    "text": "So that was obviously copied from the industry as well."
  },
  {
    "start": 2369.22,
    "end": 2374.88,
    "text": "And there are more things. And the interesting thing is that the Nazis didn't change the facade."
  },
  {
    "start": 2375.02,
    "end": 2381.6,
    "text": "It was changed much later after the Second World War by an architectural collective"
  },
  {
    "start": 2381.6,
    "end": 2384.24,
    "text": "because the architect Georg Waterstradt,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2384.4,
    "end": 2389.7,
    "text": "who designed the red building next to it, so there was like a twin building"
  },
  {
    "start": 2389.7,
    "end": 2392.52,
    "text": "to make the whole school bigger because they had so many students,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2392.76,
    "end": 2395.92,
    "text": "he was planning this building in 1949."
  },
  {
    "start": 2396.7,
    "end": 2400.4,
    "text": "And I researched that a lot because I was always interested,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2400.66,
    "end": 2402.86,
    "text": "well, why does the facade look so different?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2403.0,
    "end": 2408.5,
    "text": "And I found out that he already had planned everything and the SED party in"
  },
  {
    "start": 2408.5,
    "end": 2412.12,
    "text": "Eastern Germany, they said that it's okay to build it like that."
  },
  {
    "start": 2412.24,
    "end": 2418.52,
    "text": "But in between was this formalism debate that so much had to do with the founding"
  },
  {
    "start": 2418.52,
    "end": 2425.44,
    "text": "of the HfG Ulm because for the GDR it was politically not attractive and,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2425.72,
    "end": 2429.56,
    "text": "well, to maybe put it a little bit harsher,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2429.8,
    "end": 2436.28,
    "text": "it could not be seen as politically acceptable anymore to be a supporter of"
  },
  {
    "start": 2436.28,
    "end": 2441.32,
    "text": "the Bauhaus even though all the Bauhaus buildings were on GDR grounds because"
  },
  {
    "start": 2441.32,
    "end": 2446.58,
    "text": "Gropius and Max Bill declared the HfG to be the official successor of the Bauhaus."
  },
  {
    "start": 2446.58,
    "end": 2450.38,
    "text": "The GDR had to act counter-politically."
  },
  {
    "start": 2450.7,
    "end": 2455.48,
    "text": "And that's why Georg Waterstradt, he was involved in other projects."
  },
  {
    "start": 2455.48,
    "end": 2461.54,
    "text": "He became privileged to travel to France and what everyone else wasn't able to do in the GDR."
  },
  {
    "start": 2462.0,
    "end": 2467.1,
    "text": "And he was just taken away, this project, and then a collective with architects"
  },
  {
    "start": 2467.1,
    "end": 2469.62,
    "text": "that we don't even know the names of anymore."
  },
  {
    "start": 2469.62,
    "end": 2472.98,
    "text": "They designed that entrance and decided"
  },
  {
    "start": 2472.98,
    "end": 2478.44,
    "text": "that the chimneys would be torn down and that's why it looks like Third Reich"
  },
  {
    "start": 2478.44,
    "end": 2483.12,
    "text": "architecture because those were architects that were educated during the Third"
  },
  {
    "start": 2483.12,
    "end": 2489.16,
    "text": "Reich as architects so that's the different histories of that building and I"
  },
  {
    "start": 2489.16,
    "end": 2490.6,
    "text": "always find that really interesting"
  },
  {
    "start": 2491.4,
    "end": 2494.84,
    "text": "parallel to the history of the HfG Ulm, of course."
  },
  {
    "start": 2495.1,
    "end": 2498.76,
    "text": "But yeah, maybe we could talk about the building then because that's something"
  },
  {
    "start": 2498.76,
    "end": 2501.58,
    "text": "that's been left from Max Bill in Ulm."
  },
  {
    "start": 2501.76,
    "end": 2506.72,
    "text": "Could you very shortly describe how the building is constructed,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2506.72,
    "end": 2509.58,
    "text": "how it feels like to be in the building to walk through?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2510.3,
    "end": 2516.74,
    "text": "Well, the building, as I told you before, was taxed to cost two millions by"
  },
  {
    "start": 2516.74,
    "end": 2519.28,
    "text": "Max Bill and they had collected that money."
  },
  {
    "start": 2519.28,
    "end": 2526.16,
    "text": "And when he finalized the plans in December '52, he really had to sort of let"
  },
  {
    "start": 2526.16,
    "end": 2528.0,
    "text": "down his trousers, we say in Germany."
  },
  {
    "start": 2528.46,
    "end": 2533.22,
    "text": "He had to write a letter. In a letter to Ingersoll, he had to confess,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2533.44,
    "end": 2536.88,
    "text": "well, to make it short, he says, we are missing the third million."
  },
  {
    "start": 2537.0,
    "end": 2540.96,
    "text": "That's what he wrote one week before Christmas in 1953."
  },
  {
    "start": 2540.96,
    "end": 2547.22,
    "text": "And I found it always astonishing that Inge Scholler is answering on December"
  },
  {
    "start": 2547.22,
    "end": 2552.24,
    "text": "24th, which of course is a very Heiligabend, is sort of sacred in Germany."
  },
  {
    "start": 2552.48,
    "end": 2557.16,
    "text": "And she writes a very long letter and she really can't hide her exasperation"
  },
  {
    "start": 2557.16,
    "end": 2562.28,
    "text": "and her feelings of deception and said, well, we trusted in you."
  },
  {
    "start": 2562.32,
    "end": 2566.54,
    "text": "How could this happen? And she immediately suggests that they would have to"
  },
  {
    "start": 2566.54,
    "end": 2572.22,
    "text": "look into possibilities, what could be done, what could be built at the school itself."
  },
  {
    "start": 2572.7,
    "end": 2577.44,
    "text": "So, for example, this is one reason why the Ulm stool was designed eventually,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2577.44,
    "end": 2580.02,
    "text": "because they simply didn't have money to buy chairs."
  },
  {
    "start": 2580.28,
    "end": 2584.2,
    "text": "The following short part about the Ulmer Hocker, the Ulm stool,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2584.56,
    "end": 2587.48,
    "text": "Martin Mäntele recorded on another day with a proper microphone."
  },
  {
    "start": 2587.48,
    "end": 2591.94,
    "text": "We really forgot to talk about this design icon in detail during our interview,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2592.0,
    "end": 2595.8,
    "text": "and we thought it makes total sense to have it in our podcast anyway."
  },
  {
    "start": 2596.28,
    "end": 2601.5,
    "text": "That's why the audio you will hear now for the next roughly two minutes is much"
  },
  {
    "start": 2601.5,
    "end": 2603.14,
    "text": "better than our interview recording."
  },
  {
    "start": 2603.6,
    "end": 2607.82,
    "text": "We had several technical problems in that, and I'm really sorry that the audio"
  },
  {
    "start": 2607.82,
    "end": 2612.02,
    "text": "quality is not the best, but I wanted to use it anyway, because that's what"
  },
  {
    "start": 2612.02,
    "end": 2613.36,
    "text": "real podcasting is like."
  },
  {
    "start": 2613.36,
    "end": 2618.58,
    "text": "We're not in a recording studio, it's real life and real rough podcasting without"
  },
  {
    "start": 2618.58,
    "end": 2621.06,
    "text": "much financial backup. Here it goes."
  },
  {
    "start": 2622.24,
    "end": 2627.4,
    "text": "In September-October, the woodwork shop at the school was finally established,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2627.4,
    "end": 2633.52,
    "text": "and earlier that year, another designer and architect, Hans Güçelow, had joined the staff."
  },
  {
    "start": 2633.8,
    "end": 2641.14,
    "text": "And so these two men, Max Bill and Hans Gugelot, apparently worked on the design for the Ulm stool."
  },
  {
    "start": 2641.14,
    "end": 2647.72,
    "text": "This is a very simple piece of furniture. It mainly consists of three spruce boards,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2647.96,
    "end": 2653.08,
    "text": "two vertical and one horizontal for the seat, plus a round bar,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2653.1,
    "end": 2657.94,
    "text": "which they suggested to use as a kind of handle and also for stabilization."
  },
  {
    "start": 2658.54,
    "end": 2664.66,
    "text": "And there are two smaller parts of wood as a support on the vertical boards."
  },
  {
    "start": 2665.36,
    "end": 2671.06,
    "text": "So they could build that themselves at the school's woodwork shop, as I told you."
  },
  {
    "start": 2671.26,
    "end": 2674.54,
    "text": "But the finger joint was a bit of a problem."
  },
  {
    "start": 2675.08,
    "end": 2680.68,
    "text": "And so they asked the craftsman, Paul Hildinger, he was the master of the woodwork"
  },
  {
    "start": 2680.68,
    "end": 2684.88,
    "text": "shop, and Josef Schlecker, he was the master of the metal workshop, for help."
  },
  {
    "start": 2685.04,
    "end": 2690.34,
    "text": "And these two craftsmen apparently developed a kind of device with which these"
  },
  {
    "start": 2690.34,
    "end": 2694.64,
    "text": "finger joints could be produced more easily and quite cost-efficiently."
  },
  {
    "start": 2694.66,
    "end": 2698.82,
    "text": "You must imagine that they did not have enough money to buy chairs."
  },
  {
    "start": 2699.12,
    "end": 2703.92,
    "text": "They had intended to spend about 30 marks per chair. We know this from a list"
  },
  {
    "start": 2703.92,
    "end": 2705.74,
    "text": "of furniture they wanted to buy."
  },
  {
    "start": 2705.96,
    "end": 2712.44,
    "text": "They did not have this money, and the Ulmstuhl cost them at the time about 5 to 6 marks."
  },
  {
    "start": 2712.68,
    "end": 2716.3,
    "text": "So this was a very good solution at the time."
  },
  {
    "start": 2716.58,
    "end": 2721.42,
    "text": "They did not intend it to become a design icon, but they."
  },
  {
    "start": 2722.04,
    "end": 2727.64,
    "text": "That is a completely different story. And I'm telling you this only because"
  },
  {
    "start": 2727.64,
    "end": 2731.22,
    "text": "Bill had to save money wherever he could."
  },
  {
    "start": 2731.46,
    "end": 2737.32,
    "text": "The topological situation is slightly hilly, so we have sort of a soft rolling hill."
  },
  {
    "start": 2737.44,
    "end": 2745.26,
    "text": "And he's using this hill to organize the different three main parts of the building"
  },
  {
    "start": 2745.26,
    "end": 2747.54,
    "text": "on three different levels."
  },
  {
    "start": 2747.54,
    "end": 2752.6,
    "text": "So we have the mensa, the cafeteria level, which is sort of the lowest level."
  },
  {
    "start": 2752.86,
    "end": 2758.02,
    "text": "And then we have a second level with the rector's office at the library and"
  },
  {
    "start": 2758.02,
    "end": 2761.56,
    "text": "secretary and all these administration kind of offices."
  },
  {
    "start": 2761.92,
    "end": 2766.84,
    "text": "And then we have the top level with the different departments and the workshops."
  },
  {
    "start": 2766.84,
    "end": 2773.84,
    "text": "And they are all put in a sequence and connected through staircases."
  },
  {
    "start": 2774.38,
    "end": 2779.76,
    "text": "So they are not stacked atop on each other, but they are sort of sloping down the hill, I could say."
  },
  {
    "start": 2780.74,
    "end": 2789.46,
    "text": "And directly connected to the cafeteria part begins a corridor which connects"
  },
  {
    "start": 2789.46,
    "end": 2793.0,
    "text": "the different student quarters and the student halls."
  },
  {
    "start": 2793.0,
    "end": 2798.42,
    "text": "And there we find, I think, the most striking similarity to Bernau."
  },
  {
    "start": 2798.94,
    "end": 2803.78,
    "text": "If you come today to Ulm, you only see one large student hall,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2804.14,
    "end": 2810.32,
    "text": "which we call the Wohnturm, plus adjoining smaller wings for the studios,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2810.56,
    "end": 2812.18,
    "text": "which have about two stories."
  },
  {
    "start": 2812.38,
    "end": 2815.6,
    "text": "And I think the student hall, the tower has maybe eight."
  },
  {
    "start": 2816.52,
    "end": 2821.88,
    "text": "But Bill had intended to build three of these towers and sort of linking them"
  },
  {
    "start": 2821.88,
    "end": 2823.48,
    "text": "together along the hillside."
  },
  {
    "start": 2823.64,
    "end": 2827.32,
    "text": "This would have been very similar to the situation in Bernau."
  },
  {
    "start": 2827.94,
    "end": 2832.92,
    "text": "And he connected all these buildings with an open-air corridor,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2833.12,
    "end": 2836.84,
    "text": "but sort of walk with a dry head into the main building."
  },
  {
    "start": 2837.04,
    "end": 2841.76,
    "text": "And of course, what Meyer does in Bernau is that he has a glass corridor connecting"
  },
  {
    "start": 2841.76,
    "end": 2845.18,
    "text": "all the different living quarters, which, of course, is much nicer,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2845.2,
    "end": 2846.8,
    "text": "especially in the winter."
  },
  {
    "start": 2847.08,
    "end": 2851.48,
    "text": "But they couldn't afford that. And I think that he never even thought about this."
  },
  {
    "start": 2851.94,
    "end": 2856.26,
    "text": "So these are similarities to Bernau, but there are also structural similarities"
  },
  {
    "start": 2856.26,
    "end": 2858.78,
    "text": "to Dessau, I would suggest."
  },
  {
    "start": 2859.08,
    "end": 2864.44,
    "text": "For example, you can sort of wake up in the Wohnturm and via this corridor access"
  },
  {
    "start": 2864.44,
    "end": 2866.56,
    "text": "directly the main building."
  },
  {
    "start": 2866.7,
    "end": 2869.88,
    "text": "And this is, of course, the same situation like you have at the Prellerturm"
  },
  {
    "start": 2870.76,
    "end": 2874.6,
    "text": "in Dessau, you go down in the first floor, have breakfast, and then you can"
  },
  {
    "start": 2874.6,
    "end": 2879.62,
    "text": "go to your lessons or to the workshop without ever leaving the building."
  },
  {
    "start": 2880.08,
    "end": 2884.8,
    "text": "And this is the same idea here in Ulm. And also similar to the Bauhaus,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2885.2,
    "end": 2889.06,
    "text": "Bill designed a couple of double houses,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2889.78,
    "end": 2895.6,
    "text": "which were used by the lecturers, similar to the Meisterhäuser in Dessau."
  },
  {
    "start": 2895.6,
    "end": 2900.4,
    "text": "And the houses here are even closer to the main school building than they are."
  },
  {
    "start": 2900.52,
    "end": 2903.5,
    "text": "That's how it's maybe a three-minute walk to the first of them."
  },
  {
    "start": 2903.86,
    "end": 2908.98,
    "text": "But again, he didn't have enough money, so he just built six units,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2909.32,
    "end": 2911.82,
    "text": "actually, although he had intended to build more."
  },
  {
    "start": 2912.34,
    "end": 2917.56,
    "text": "And interestingly, and not many people know this, the first house in the sequence"
  },
  {
    "start": 2917.56,
    "end": 2921.72,
    "text": "of houses for the lecturers, he wanted to build his own house."
  },
  {
    "start": 2921.84,
    "end": 2929.24,
    "text": "And this, again, not a double house, but a single house, a detached house similar to Gropius in Dessau,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2929.44,
    "end": 2933.5,
    "text": "who had not a double house like Klee and Kandinsky or the others,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2933.7,
    "end": 2937.6,
    "text": "but who had a house for himself, which has been luckily."
  },
  {
    "start": 2938.78,
    "end": 2940.76,
    "text": "Restored in the last couple of years."
  },
  {
    "start": 2940.98,
    "end": 2945.56,
    "text": "So, that's a very telling similarity to the Bauhaus and also,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2945.7,
    "end": 2948.76,
    "text": "I think, in a way, very telling about the personality of Max Bill."
  },
  {
    "start": 2949.72,
    "end": 2954.5,
    "text": "But this never came to be because they didn't have the funds to do it and the"
  },
  {
    "start": 2954.5,
    "end": 2958.8,
    "text": "foundation was not really happy about this idea because it was really a large house."
  },
  {
    "start": 2959.04,
    "end": 2961.92,
    "text": "I think it had about 300 square meters or something like that,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2962.0,
    "end": 2963.56,
    "text": "which is a very large house."
  },
  {
    "start": 2964.12,
    "end": 2968.36,
    "text": "The Bauhaus building when Max Bill was studying there was brand new and I think"
  },
  {
    "start": 2968.36,
    "end": 2973.28,
    "text": "it must have been one of the most exciting experiences, which then would become"
  },
  {
    "start": 2973.28,
    "end": 2978.0,
    "text": "world famous and that can be quite influential for such a young person."
  },
  {
    "start": 2978.14,
    "end": 2983.18,
    "text": "I mean, he was still in his early 20s when he was there."
  },
  {
    "start": 2984.05,
    "end": 2989.43,
    "text": "When I was talking to his widow, Angela Thomas, she also said that there is"
  },
  {
    "start": 2989.43,
    "end": 2995.03,
    "text": "a strong possibility that he visited Bernau in 1929 and perhaps even worked"
  },
  {
    "start": 2995.03,
    "end": 3000.11,
    "text": "there on the building site because there's like a big blank in 1929."
  },
  {
    "start": 3000.11,
    "end": 3005.75,
    "text": "And she only knows, she only found out that he had been in Berlin and the office"
  },
  {
    "start": 3005.75,
    "end": 3009.47,
    "text": "for Bernau by Hannes Meyer was in Berlin."
  },
  {
    "start": 3009.47,
    "end": 3015.97,
    "text": "And Arieh Sharon was the head of this office after Hans Wittwer went away from"
  },
  {
    "start": 3015.97,
    "end": 3021.59,
    "text": "the Bauhaus and also left Bernau to go to Burg Giebichenstein in Halle and become"
  },
  {
    "start": 3021.59,
    "end": 3025.37,
    "text": "head of the carpentry and the architectural class there."
  },
  {
    "start": 3025.69,
    "end": 3032.23,
    "text": "And Arieh Sharon and Max Bill, they were pretty close friends even later after"
  },
  {
    "start": 3032.23,
    "end": 3033.25,
    "text": "that time at the Bauhaus."
  },
  {
    "start": 3033.25,
    "end": 3038.57,
    "text": "So there is a strong possibility that Max Bill was in Bernau or at least knew"
  },
  {
    "start": 3038.57,
    "end": 3040.47,
    "text": "the competition entries because,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3040.71,
    "end": 3045.45,
    "text": "of course, those in 1928, it was published in the Bauhaus journal and it was"
  },
  {
    "start": 3045.45,
    "end": 3050.09,
    "text": "probably also exhibited at the Bauhaus, I would guess, because,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3050.23,
    "end": 3055.79,
    "text": "I mean, it was the Bauhaus project under the era of Hannes Meyer and was the"
  },
  {
    "start": 3055.79,
    "end": 3061.43,
    "text": "only Bauhaus building that was built from the inside and from the outside by"
  },
  {
    "start": 3061.43,
    "end": 3064.63,
    "text": "the Bauhaus, apart from the Bauhaus building itself."
  },
  {
    "start": 3064.93,
    "end": 3070.59,
    "text": "So I think that would be something really triggering for me to find out if Max"
  },
  {
    "start": 3070.59,
    "end": 3076.55,
    "text": "Bill was really part of that building site in Bernau or if he knew in more detail"
  },
  {
    "start": 3076.55,
    "end": 3083.71,
    "text": "about the building and why it kind of inspired him for his own buildings at the HfG."
  },
  {
    "start": 3084.03,
    "end": 3086.53,
    "text": "Because I think it's quite obviously, you mentioned it already,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3086.73,
    "end": 3091.73,
    "text": "it's a mixture of the Bauhaus in Dessau and the Bauhaus building in Bernau."
  },
  {
    "start": 3091.73,
    "end": 3097.21,
    "text": "But of course, a much more modern version of both of it, of the 50s."
  },
  {
    "start": 3097.83,
    "end": 3101.77,
    "text": "Exactly. I may have to point this out to people who don't know the building."
  },
  {
    "start": 3101.77,
    "end": 3104.51,
    "text": "It's not painted white. It's the pure concrete."
  },
  {
    "start": 3104.93,
    "end": 3108.65,
    "text": "It's gray in appearance. And so it's really very different to..."
  },
  {
    "start": 3109.4,
    "end": 3113.4,
    "text": "The impression in Bernau, where you sort of break, is the main impression."
  },
  {
    "start": 3113.64,
    "end": 3117.88,
    "text": "And of course, in Dessau, where you have white and the black and white facade,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3118.3,
    "end": 3123.54,
    "text": "or the white facade in contrast to the black window frames at the Werkstattgebäude,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3123.98,
    "end": 3125.4,
    "text": "is the main impression. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 3126.5,
    "end": 3131.62,
    "text": "So you already mentioned that the HfG closed in 1968 for good."
  },
  {
    "start": 3131.72,
    "end": 3136.54,
    "text": "Why did it close in the end? And what was the trace from Max Bill's leaving"
  },
  {
    "start": 3136.54,
    "end": 3142.06,
    "text": "in 1957 for good to 1968 to fully closing in?"
  },
  {
    "start": 3142.54,
    "end": 3147.52,
    "text": "Similar to the Bauhaus, we have to stress that the Ulm School of Design dissolved itself."
  },
  {
    "start": 3148.06,
    "end": 3153.12,
    "text": "In some of the older literature, you would find the formulation that the school"
  },
  {
    "start": 3153.12,
    "end": 3157.06,
    "text": "was closed by Hans Filbinger, the then minister-president of Baden-Württemberg."
  },
  {
    "start": 3157.26,
    "end": 3163.2,
    "text": "But this could not be because the Ulm School of Design was always a privately run school."
  },
  {
    "start": 3163.36,
    "end": 3166.94,
    "text": "Which was supported by the Geschwister Scholl Foundation,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3167.76,
    "end": 3173.86,
    "text": "which was funded in 1950 by Inge Scholl in order to collect and administrate"
  },
  {
    "start": 3173.86,
    "end": 3179.44,
    "text": "the money they were trying to find for the school building and for the running of the school."
  },
  {
    "start": 3180.12,
    "end": 3185.9,
    "text": "And so we have three main reasons. They are financial, personal,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3185.92,
    "end": 3189.6,
    "text": "and political, I would say. So let's begin with the finances."
  },
  {
    "start": 3190.42,
    "end": 3196.68,
    "text": "In 1966, the foundation suddenly found that they had large debts at the bank,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3197.0,
    "end": 3199.9,
    "text": "that they were in debt with about 400,000 marks."
  },
  {
    "start": 3200.76,
    "end": 3204.64,
    "text": "And apparently, they did not do an annual review at one time."
  },
  {
    "start": 3204.86,
    "end": 3210.04,
    "text": "But we also have to point out that the school was never sticking to its budget, apparently."
  },
  {
    "start": 3210.66,
    "end": 3213.72,
    "text": "And so, that was a big problem, of course."
  },
  {
    "start": 3213.72,
    "end": 3221.06,
    "text": "And in 1966-67, the West German government decided that the funding of university-level"
  },
  {
    "start": 3221.06,
    "end": 3226.22,
    "text": "education was supposed to be paid by the different Bundesländer,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3226.36,
    "end": 3229.16,
    "text": "not by the federal state, but by the Bundesländer."
  },
  {
    "start": 3229.28,
    "end": 3231.96,
    "text": "In this case, that would mean Baden-Württemberg."
  },
  {
    "start": 3232.78,
    "end": 3238.94,
    "text": "And so another big part of the funding, about 200,000 marks, was suddenly gone."
  },
  {
    "start": 3239.9,
    "end": 3249.08,
    "text": "And also we have to say that in '66/'67, for the first time, the national income would not grow anymore."
  },
  {
    "start": 3249.08,
    "end": 3254.5,
    "text": "It was the first sort of break in this continuous growth after World War II"
  },
  {
    "start": 3254.5,
    "end": 3255.96,
    "text": "and there was a high inflation."
  },
  {
    "start": 3256.14,
    "end": 3262.0,
    "text": "And so they did not have any attractive or lucrative contract works with the"
  },
  {
    "start": 3262.0,
    "end": 3266.46,
    "text": "industry because this was one of the arguments when they were founding the school"
  },
  {
    "start": 3266.46,
    "end": 3268.54,
    "text": "that they would fund themselves."
  },
  {
    "start": 3268.94,
    "end": 3274.16,
    "text": "By doing work for the industry and by also charging student fees,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3274.34,
    "end": 3276.32,
    "text": "which never really worked out."
  },
  {
    "start": 3276.54,
    "end": 3280.4,
    "text": "And to stress this point even more, so the school was privately run,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3280.5,
    "end": 3284.2,
    "text": "but it was dependent for over more than 50% by public money."
  },
  {
    "start": 3285.13,
    "end": 3292.09,
    "text": "And so in '66/'67, we all, at that time, the school was looked on as being a"
  },
  {
    "start": 3292.09,
    "end": 3295.47,
    "text": "very divisive school and not easy to deal with."
  },
  {
    "start": 3295.97,
    "end": 3302.13,
    "text": "And so in 67, and now I come to the personal reasons, Tomás Maldonado left"
  },
  {
    "start": 3302.13,
    "end": 3304.75,
    "text": "the school because he wanted to write a book."
  },
  {
    "start": 3304.93,
    "end": 3310.15,
    "text": "He left for the States where he got a grant to write a very important book."
  },
  {
    "start": 3310.15,
    "end": 3316.55,
    "text": "And Otl Aicher, he was awarded the contract for the corporate identity for"
  },
  {
    "start": 3316.55,
    "end": 3318.41,
    "text": "the Munich Olympics in '72."
  },
  {
    "start": 3318.87,
    "end": 3325.47,
    "text": "So he also left the school and so two very influential figures were no longer"
  },
  {
    "start": 3325.47,
    "end": 3331.29,
    "text": "around or at least not as present as before because Aicher stayed to teach but"
  },
  {
    "start": 3331.29,
    "end": 3334.11,
    "text": "he was not in any responsible function anymore."
  },
  {
    "start": 3335.05,
    "end": 3339.57,
    "text": "And the last rector of the school, Herbert Ohl, Even contemporaries say he was"
  },
  {
    "start": 3339.57,
    "end": 3343.11,
    "text": "not really the right person to deal with the politicians, apparently."
  },
  {
    "start": 3343.89,
    "end": 3351.37,
    "text": "And so in 1968, it was very clear that they would run out of money for the new study year 68-69."
  },
  {
    "start": 3351.73,
    "end": 3356.75,
    "text": "And for legal reasons, they had to let people go, and they had to inform them"
  },
  {
    "start": 3356.75,
    "end": 3358.61,
    "text": "as early as March, apparently."
  },
  {
    "start": 3358.61,
    "end": 3364.67,
    "text": "But already in February, there was a vote by the students and by the lecturers"
  },
  {
    "start": 3364.67,
    "end": 3369.77,
    "text": "and by the whole staff actually of the school that they would rather dissolve"
  },
  {
    "start": 3369.77,
    "end": 3372.73,
    "text": "themselves than accept any kind of compromise."
  },
  {
    "start": 3372.73,
    "end": 3379.25,
    "text": "And one of these compromises, which was discussed or suggested by the politicians in Stuttgart,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3379.55,
    "end": 3385.47,
    "text": "was to make it a state school, to join the ULM School of Design with a newly"
  },
  {
    "start": 3385.47,
    "end": 3389.27,
    "text": "founded engineer school in ULM, which actually still exists."
  },
  {
    "start": 3389.99,
    "end": 3396.09,
    "text": "But as soon as this was suggested, they took this discussion to the public."
  },
  {
    "start": 3396.29,
    "end": 3401.45,
    "text": "And we can find reports in the local paper that they were fighting about who"
  },
  {
    "start": 3401.45,
    "end": 3405.55,
    "text": "would then be the director and who would then have sort of the say at the school."
  },
  {
    "start": 3405.93,
    "end": 3411.59,
    "text": "And another idea was to establish the UL College design as a postgraduate study"
  },
  {
    "start": 3411.59,
    "end": 3416.83,
    "text": "at Stuttgart University for design that specializes in design,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3417.01,
    "end": 3418.83,
    "text": "but sort of functioning in UL."
  },
  {
    "start": 3419.27,
    "end": 3421.33,
    "text": "But both these ideas were rejected."
  },
  {
    "start": 3422.46,
    "end": 3428.22,
    "text": "And the cultural ministry in Stuttgart, they said ultimata, but then nothing"
  },
  {
    "start": 3428.22,
    "end": 3430.9,
    "text": "worked out and they didn't come together in any way."
  },
  {
    "start": 3431.74,
    "end": 3437.14,
    "text": "And so for the new study of 68, 69, only 40 students returned."
  },
  {
    "start": 3437.4,
    "end": 3441.02,
    "text": "And so the lecturers refused to teach at all."
  },
  {
    "start": 3441.3,
    "end": 3445.12,
    "text": "So teaching had already stopped in the fall of 68."
  },
  {
    "start": 3445.48,
    "end": 3449.3,
    "text": "And by the end of the year, they simply closed the school. So,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3449.52,
    "end": 3454.52,
    "text": "ironically, the Landesregierung was not freezing the money anymore in November"
  },
  {
    "start": 3454.52,
    "end": 3459.12,
    "text": "1968, but it was simply too late to reestablish the lectures and so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 3459.2,
    "end": 3462.72,
    "text": "And so they only had the option to close the school in December."
  },
  {
    "start": 3463.26,
    "end": 3469.98,
    "text": "So I have to ask, because 1968 is a politically loaded year,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3470.6,
    "end": 3476.0,
    "text": "it didn't have to do with the student movement that took place in that year especially."
  },
  {
    "start": 3476.4,
    "end": 3479.58,
    "text": "Of course it did. I mean, I sort of omitted the political reasons."
  },
  {
    "start": 3479.72,
    "end": 3481.1,
    "text": "I mean, I talked about the financial,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3481.28,
    "end": 3483.84,
    "text": "the personal, and now I should talk about the political reasons."
  },
  {
    "start": 3484.34,
    "end": 3488.5,
    "text": "You are absolutely right. It has to do with the student revolt in some ways."
  },
  {
    "start": 3488.68,
    "end": 3495.68,
    "text": "And again, this starts earlier because in 1966, they collected money for the"
  },
  {
    "start": 3495.68,
    "end": 3500.48,
    "text": "victims of the Vietnam War, but without any kind of official permit down in"
  },
  {
    "start": 3500.48,
    "end": 3503.46,
    "text": "the city of Ulm. And the Lord Mayor was really upset."
  },
  {
    "start": 3503.92,
    "end": 3507.9,
    "text": "The city of Ulm was always also giving money to the school. but they had not"
  },
  {
    "start": 3507.9,
    "end": 3512.64,
    "text": "acquired a permit for this action and that was again a cause for scandal."
  },
  {
    "start": 3513.62,
    "end": 3519.5,
    "text": "And of course in 67 after the murder of Benno Unesorg in West Berlin there was a demonstration."
  },
  {
    "start": 3519.86,
    "end": 3523.9,
    "text": "So the new generation or the generation studying at that time at the ULM School"
  },
  {
    "start": 3523.9,
    "end": 3529.22,
    "text": "of Design they were similarly upset like students in all other cities because"
  },
  {
    "start": 3529.22,
    "end": 3535.82,
    "text": "I mean we know in 65 they started the Auschwitz processes in Frankfurt and so on and so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 3535.82,
    "end": 3540.26,
    "text": "So they were simply opposing the elders, I would say."
  },
  {
    "start": 3540.64,
    "end": 3546.26,
    "text": "And I know from a former head of the metal workshop, and he was a union man,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3546.36,
    "end": 3548.96,
    "text": "so he was already a leftist guy, I would say."
  },
  {
    "start": 3549.16,
    "end": 3552.6,
    "text": "He always tells me that the students tried to make him a communist,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3552.9,
    "end": 3554.72,
    "text": "that he would join the communist party."
  },
  {
    "start": 3555.45,
    "end": 3558.69,
    "text": "And, of course, the school had a very Levitist band."
  },
  {
    "start": 3559.15,
    "end": 3565.85,
    "text": "Maldonado is certainly a prime example of being caviar gauche, as the French call this."
  },
  {
    "start": 3566.07,
    "end": 3571.45,
    "text": "And, I mean, I don't blame him for this, but this doesn't really help if you have to save the school."
  },
  {
    "start": 3572.33,
    "end": 3577.75,
    "text": "And, yeah, we could also say that the general upheaval of the younger generation"
  },
  {
    "start": 3577.75,
    "end": 3582.63,
    "text": "in that case did not really help regarding saving the school."
  },
  {
    "start": 3582.63,
    "end": 3586.87,
    "text": "Because it was simply not clear how would they finance themselves,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3587.11,
    "end": 3591.25,
    "text": "how would they organize themselves, who would be the rector in the future,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3591.57,
    "end": 3595.97,
    "text": "would the school need even more funding because they were also criticizing they"
  },
  {
    "start": 3595.97,
    "end": 3601.87,
    "text": "had too much, too few output, that there was not enough being done at the school"
  },
  {
    "start": 3601.87,
    "end": 3604.19,
    "text": "at the time, and so on and so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 3604.23,
    "end": 3609.59,
    "text": "So it is really a very complex situation. And to give you another idea of the"
  },
  {
    "start": 3609.59,
    "end": 3614.27,
    "text": "turmoil, maybe I could say, at the school."
  },
  {
    "start": 3615.27,
    "end": 3621.57,
    "text": "There was indeed, we have letters, interest by André Marot, the then cultural"
  },
  {
    "start": 3621.57,
    "end": 3626.43,
    "text": "minister in France, very famous cultural minister, to establish the school in"
  },
  {
    "start": 3626.43,
    "end": 3628.89,
    "text": "Paris, actually, or to bring it to France."
  },
  {
    "start": 3629.69,
    "end": 3634.05,
    "text": "And even a student delegation traveled to France to talk with him or to talk"
  },
  {
    "start": 3634.05,
    "end": 3636.83,
    "text": "with some people in France, in Paris, about it."
  },
  {
    "start": 3636.95,
    "end": 3643.11,
    "text": "But they sort of got lost in May of 1968 in the student reward in Paris."
  },
  {
    "start": 3643.87,
    "end": 3648.49,
    "text": "But one of the students told the Frankfurter Allgemeine, one of the leading"
  },
  {
    "start": 3648.49,
    "end": 3651.21,
    "text": "German newspapers, that the school would go to Paris."
  },
  {
    "start": 3651.93,
    "end": 3656.97,
    "text": "But then Herbert Ohl, he had to publish Dementi the next day in the Frankfurter"
  },
  {
    "start": 3656.97,
    "end": 3660.81,
    "text": "Allgemeine Zeitung saying, no, we are still talking to Stuttgart."
  },
  {
    "start": 3660.97,
    "end": 3662.01,
    "text": "We are not going to Paris."
  },
  {
    "start": 3662.21,
    "end": 3667.13,
    "text": "This is a wonderful example how the situation was sort of completely out of"
  },
  {
    "start": 3667.13,
    "end": 3669.63,
    "text": "control because the students did this,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3669.73,
    "end": 3676.23,
    "text": "all did that, and so they really couldn't fight together in one direction in"
  },
  {
    "start": 3676.23,
    "end": 3677.89,
    "text": "order to save the school."
  },
  {
    "start": 3678.13,
    "end": 3681.57,
    "text": "And as I told you before, they were really decided,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3682.31,
    "end": 3687.39,
    "text": "they were determined as early as February 68, that they would not accept any"
  },
  {
    "start": 3687.39,
    "end": 3691.43,
    "text": "kind of compromise because they said our school was founded in the memory of"
  },
  {
    "start": 3691.43,
    "end": 3694.41,
    "text": "Hans and Sophie Scholl who fought their freedom, who lost their lives,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3694.59,
    "end": 3695.99,
    "text": "fighting for the freedom."
  },
  {
    "start": 3696.29,
    "end": 3698.89,
    "text": "And we see ourselves in this tradition."
  },
  {
    "start": 3699.61,
    "end": 3703.89,
    "text": "And now we could, of course, talk about is this a useful attitude?"
  },
  {
    "start": 3704.51,
    "end": 3710.85,
    "text": "I don't want to decide. But this illustrates you very clearly how difficult the situation was."
  },
  {
    "start": 3711.07,
    "end": 3713.79,
    "text": "Maybe it could not be resolved at the time."
  },
  {
    "start": 3713.79,
    "end": 3721.69,
    "text": "So after the HfG closed, what happened to the building and what is there happening today?"
  },
  {
    "start": 3722.87,
    "end": 3729.89,
    "text": "After the school was closed, some of the workshop masters, they tried to keep the workshops alive."
  },
  {
    "start": 3730.35,
    "end": 3734.73,
    "text": "And they tried to find contract works or work to make money."
  },
  {
    "start": 3734.87,
    "end": 3737.07,
    "text": "But this didn't really last a long time."
  },
  {
    "start": 3737.95,
    "end": 3744.37,
    "text": "And then for a very brief time, for about three years, there was the Institut für Umweltplanung."
  },
  {
    "start": 3744.47,
    "end": 3747.89,
    "text": "So we could translate this for Institut for Planning."
  },
  {
    "start": 3748.25,
    "end": 3752.73,
    "text": "And that was already connected to Stuttgart University. And this gave some of"
  },
  {
    "start": 3752.73,
    "end": 3758.49,
    "text": "the younger students the opportunity to finish their studies and receive their diploma."
  },
  {
    "start": 3758.79,
    "end": 3764.45,
    "text": "And some even made a doctorate, actually. But that collapsed again three years later in 72."
  },
  {
    "start": 3764.75,
    "end": 3769.93,
    "text": "And then the University of Ulm, which was only founded in 67,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3770.75,
    "end": 3776.01,
    "text": "if I'm not mistaken, which was still young and they were growing and they needed space."
  },
  {
    "start": 3776.01,
    "end": 3782.23,
    "text": "They took over the school and also the student halls, and they established different functions."
  },
  {
    "start": 3782.49,
    "end": 3787.37,
    "text": "And one main function was a psychosomatic clinic on one side and the Department"
  },
  {
    "start": 3787.37,
    "end": 3790.57,
    "text": "for Anthropology on the other side of the building."
  },
  {
    "start": 3790.69,
    "end": 3795.55,
    "text": "And they used the building until about 2008 or 2009."
  },
  {
    "start": 3796.01,
    "end": 3799.37,
    "text": "For the clinic, there was a new building, and they moved there."
  },
  {
    "start": 3799.57,
    "end": 3806.43,
    "text": "And so everyone moved out. And the foundation, which is now called Stiftung"
  },
  {
    "start": 3806.43,
    "end": 3811.21,
    "text": "Hochschule Vergestaltung, HfG Ulm, who still owns most of the campus,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3811.95,
    "end": 3813.79,
    "text": "they decided to establish a"
  },
  {
    "start": 3813.79,
    "end": 3819.39,
    "text": "design center trying to find renters somehow related to design in general."
  },
  {
    "start": 3819.39,
    "end": 3823.33,
    "text": "And so the city council of Ulm decided that the archive."
  },
  {
    "start": 3824.77,
    "end": 3830.59,
    "text": "Which was at a different place in town, would be moved to the actual site and"
  },
  {
    "start": 3830.59,
    "end": 3835.43,
    "text": "that we would also receive some kind of exhibition space because up to then"
  },
  {
    "start": 3835.43,
    "end": 3839.83,
    "text": "there was not a real proper exhibition space within the archive, actually."
  },
  {
    "start": 3839.83,
    "end": 3849.03,
    "text": "And so the archive was established here in 2011, and our permanent exhibition was opened in 2013."
  },
  {
    "start": 3849.97,
    "end": 3855.67,
    "text": "And so the other rooms are now rented out to photographers, engineers,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3856.09,
    "end": 3862.35,
    "text": "marketing agencies, a large jewelry company, which is a traditional company from Ulm."
  },
  {
    "start": 3862.35,
    "end": 3870.83,
    "text": "And interestingly, a small private clinic for psychotherapy is now also again in the building."
  },
  {
    "start": 3871.03,
    "end": 3873.27,
    "text": "So at the moment, all rooms are rented out."
  },
  {
    "start": 3873.79,
    "end": 3877.27,
    "text": "And so the building is thriving in a way."
  },
  {
    "start": 3878.26,
    "end": 3884.08,
    "text": "My very last question, Herr Mäntele, it's, could you pick out one or two products"
  },
  {
    "start": 3884.08,
    "end": 3890.02,
    "text": "of the HfG Ulm that's probably also part of your permanent exhibition that became"
  },
  {
    "start": 3890.02,
    "end": 3894.4,
    "text": "iconic and telling for the HfG and are known to most people?"
  },
  {
    "start": 3894.6,
    "end": 3899.8,
    "text": "And could you describe them a little bit to the listeners and tell us why do"
  },
  {
    "start": 3899.8,
    "end": 3901.88,
    "text": "you think that they become so iconic?"
  },
  {
    "start": 3902.68,
    "end": 3906.42,
    "text": "Well, there are two obvious competitors for this."
  },
  {
    "start": 3906.42,
    "end": 3913.24,
    "text": "The first one, the older one from 1956, is the SR4, better known as \"Snow White"
  },
  {
    "start": 3913.24,
    "end": 3919.72,
    "text": "Coffin\", a compact radio and record appliance manufactured by the Brown Company."
  },
  {
    "start": 3920.0,
    "end": 3927.06,
    "text": "And the second one is the TC100, a stackable tableware designed by Hans-Albrecht"
  },
  {
    "start": 3927.06,
    "end": 3932.22,
    "text": "Röhricht in 1958 and then produced from 1961 onwards."
  },
  {
    "start": 3932.22,
    "end": 3938.3,
    "text": "Both of them were very early accepted by the Museum of Modern Art in New York"
  },
  {
    "start": 3938.3,
    "end": 3942.42,
    "text": "in their design collections, as always compared to become a knight."
  },
  {
    "start": 3942.7,
    "end": 3947.36,
    "text": "So this is sort of the knighthood for designers if their work is accepted in the collection."
  },
  {
    "start": 3947.36,
    "end": 3954.18,
    "text": "The compact appliance, the SK-4 or Snow White's Coffin, is really a new approach"
  },
  {
    "start": 3954.18,
    "end": 3957.22,
    "text": "to this kind of appliance because up to then,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3958.02,
    "end": 3963.92,
    "text": "radios or record players were hidden away in large pieces of furniture and they"
  },
  {
    "start": 3963.92,
    "end": 3967.1,
    "text": "were quite heavy, you could not move them around yourselves."
  },
  {
    "start": 3967.44,
    "end": 3970.72,
    "text": "And so they did everything contrary to that."
  },
  {
    "start": 3971.04,
    "end": 3975.94,
    "text": "So the main designer on this project is Hans Gugelot, who also taught at the school."
  },
  {
    "start": 3976.76,
    "end": 3982.26,
    "text": "An architect by training, by the way. And instead of using a full body made"
  },
  {
    "start": 3982.26,
    "end": 3986.58,
    "text": "completely out of wood, he is only using flanks made in wood."
  },
  {
    "start": 3986.8,
    "end": 3990.74,
    "text": "And the main body of the appliance is made from bent metal."
  },
  {
    "start": 3991.04,
    "end": 3995.88,
    "text": "And this bent metal was thin, lacquered, and crisp white, which again was a"
  },
  {
    "start": 3995.88,
    "end": 4001.8,
    "text": "new approach because at the time, clean white would not be acceptable for a living room."
  },
  {
    "start": 4001.96,
    "end": 4007.16,
    "text": "They would use ivory white maybe or eggshell, but never, as they called it in"
  },
  {
    "start": 4007.16,
    "end": 4009.48,
    "text": "German, \"Krankenhausweiß\" (hospital-white)."
  },
  {
    "start": 4009.74,
    "end": 4015.02,
    "text": "But he did. Of course, the nickname derives from the color, but also from the"
  },
  {
    "start": 4015.02,
    "end": 4021.42,
    "text": "fact that Dieter Rahms, who at that time was already working for Braun, though only briefly."
  },
  {
    "start": 4022.3,
    "end": 4027.12,
    "text": "He suggested to use acrylic glass for the lid, making the lid transparent."
  },
  {
    "start": 4027.44,
    "end": 4033.16,
    "text": "And by this, they designed a new type for this kind of machinery,"
  },
  {
    "start": 4033.16,
    "end": 4034.7,
    "text": "for this kind of appliance."
  },
  {
    "start": 4035.02,
    "end": 4039.58,
    "text": "And in the future, most of the record players would have a kind of transparent"
  },
  {
    "start": 4039.58,
    "end": 4041.26,
    "text": "or semi-transparent cover."
  },
  {
    "start": 4041.64,
    "end": 4045.48,
    "text": "And if you look closely at the design, what is typically for Gugelot's designs"
  },
  {
    "start": 4045.48,
    "end": 4049.3,
    "text": "are so-called enge radien in German."
  },
  {
    "start": 4049.5,
    "end": 4054.34,
    "text": "We call it narrow angles, which makes the edges very smooth."
  },
  {
    "start": 4054.88,
    "end": 4059.32,
    "text": "And together with the whiteness and the smooth edges and the transparency,"
  },
  {
    "start": 4059.8,
    "end": 4063.46,
    "text": "this is really the DNA for Jonathan Ives' work"
  },
  {
    "start": 4063.46,
    "end": 4066.78,
    "text": "for Apple from about 20 or 30 years ago."
  },
  {
    "start": 4067.16,
    "end": 4072.3,
    "text": "So in a way, the idea of Apple design, or some ideas, let's say some ideas,"
  },
  {
    "start": 4072.6,
    "end": 4077.58,
    "text": "Apple design, at least from Jonathan Ives onwards, were designed or thought"
  },
  {
    "start": 4077.58,
    "end": 4080.58,
    "text": "about in Ulm. And that's why it's certainly iconic."
  },
  {
    "start": 4081.06,
    "end": 4084.54,
    "text": "So like the Apple products are the must-haves of today."
  },
  {
    "start": 4084.8,
    "end": 4088.6,
    "text": "In 1956, the SK-4 was a must-have."
  },
  {
    "start": 4088.6,
    "end": 4094.54,
    "text": "And it was similarly expensive because it cost about 290 marks,"
  },
  {
    "start": 4094.86,
    "end": 4099.96,
    "text": "which was a month's salary of a teacher or a policeman, apparently."
  },
  {
    "start": 4100.5,
    "end": 4107.44,
    "text": "And so the second contender is, in my eyes, the TC100, the stackable tableware."
  },
  {
    "start": 4107.44,
    "end": 4113.3,
    "text": "Again, interestingly, the C stands for compact, and it's a stackable tableware"
  },
  {
    "start": 4113.3,
    "end": 4121.4,
    "text": "based on a grid, and every element with the same diameter could be stacked on top of each other."
  },
  {
    "start": 4121.68,
    "end": 4126.46,
    "text": "And I always use it as an example to explain what the Ulm model meant,"
  },
  {
    "start": 4126.48,
    "end": 4130.94,
    "text": "because the basic idea of Hans \"Nick\" Röhricht, who later became a professor in"
  },
  {
    "start": 4130.94,
    "end": 4135.72,
    "text": "Berlin, and he himself educated many future professors of design."
  },
  {
    "start": 4135.72,
    "end": 4143.8,
    "text": "And his main idea, his basic idea was to use a double cylinder for this shape for the cups and so on."
  },
  {
    "start": 4144.51,
    "end": 4149.13,
    "text": "But double cylinder cannot be produced. You have to have some kind of slant."
  },
  {
    "start": 4149.37,
    "end": 4154.73,
    "text": "In Germany, we have the very nice word Ausformschräge or Entformungsschräge,"
  },
  {
    "start": 4154.93,
    "end": 4159.99,
    "text": "which needs to be at least two degrees as an angle, maybe 1.5."
  },
  {
    "start": 4160.17,
    "end": 4166.71,
    "text": "But you need this kind of slant in order to be able to remove something from a mold smoothly."
  },
  {
    "start": 4166.99,
    "end": 4172.23,
    "text": "I always compare it to a muffin baking tray. It also is slanted in order to"
  },
  {
    "start": 4172.23,
    "end": 4173.41,
    "text": "remove the muffin quickly."
  },
  {
    "start": 4173.97,
    "end": 4178.53,
    "text": "And this is what the ULM model is about, that the designer has to accept these"
  },
  {
    "start": 4178.53,
    "end": 4186.89,
    "text": "technical reasons and then has to adapt his design accordingly to these technical expectations."
  },
  {
    "start": 4187.25,
    "end": 4191.21,
    "text": "And I could talk more in detail about other elements in this design."
  },
  {
    "start": 4191.59,
    "end": 4196.09,
    "text": "Also, he did some research. For example, he talked to dishwasher manufacturers"
  },
  {
    "start": 4196.09,
    "end": 4199.75,
    "text": "and they always told them to make sure that the water jet gets everywhere so"
  },
  {
    "start": 4199.75,
    "end": 4204.33,
    "text": "that the china gets clean and also make sure that there are no recesses that"
  },
  {
    "start": 4204.33,
    "end": 4206.15,
    "text": "the water can dry off completely."
  },
  {
    "start": 4206.83,
    "end": 4210.77,
    "text": "And again, this has nothing to do with aesthetics. This has to do with function."
  },
  {
    "start": 4211.11,
    "end": 4216.85,
    "text": "But the designer has to collect all these data and put them into his design"
  },
  {
    "start": 4216.85,
    "end": 4218.65,
    "text": "in order to make a successful product."
  },
  {
    "start": 4218.97,
    "end": 4224.53,
    "text": "And there you really can grasp the difference between design and art because"
  },
  {
    "start": 4224.53,
    "end": 4230.89,
    "text": "an artist might claim the most beautiful stackable cup looks like this for me."
  },
  {
    "start": 4231.05,
    "end": 4234.65,
    "text": "I don't accept any kind of compromise, but it would never be produced."
  },
  {
    "start": 4234.85,
    "end": 4240.95,
    "text": "And the designer has to accept a technical framework for his design and then adapt his design."
  },
  {
    "start": 4241.11,
    "end": 4243.37,
    "text": "And only then his work will be produced."
  },
  {
    "start": 4243.55,
    "end": 4245.81,
    "text": "And again, it was quite a successful work."
  },
  {
    "start": 4246.13,
    "end": 4250.53,
    "text": "The cups were then produced by Thomas, a company which belonged to Rosenthal"
  },
  {
    "start": 4250.53,
    "end": 4256.11,
    "text": "at the time, one of the most famous manufacturers in Western Germany at the time."
  },
  {
    "start": 4256.29,
    "end": 4261.01,
    "text": "And it was produced continuously until 2006 or 2008."
  },
  {
    "start": 4261.99,
    "end": 4266.43,
    "text": "I think it's quite interesting. I don't know if you know Mitropa dish from the"
  },
  {
    "start": 4266.43,
    "end": 4268.87,
    "text": "GDR. I grew up with that kind of dish."
  },
  {
    "start": 4269.93,
    "end": 4276.23,
    "text": "And when I saw the first time at the HfG Ulm exhibition, the stackable dish"
  },
  {
    "start": 4276.23,
    "end": 4278.95,
    "text": "of the HfG, I felt so reminded of that."
  },
  {
    "start": 4279.15,
    "end": 4284.39,
    "text": "And I always wondered what came first, the HfG dish or the Mitropa dish,"
  },
  {
    "start": 4284.51,
    "end": 4288.57,
    "text": "or was it Zeitgeist thing, you know, that just evolved during that time?"
  },
  {
    "start": 4289.13,
    "end": 4292.55,
    "text": "Yeah, I think it would be both. And the Mitropa, I think it's slightly earlier."
  },
  {
    "start": 4292.87,
    "end": 4297.69,
    "text": "But again, we would have to look really into the development of the whole process."
  },
  {
    "start": 4298.17,
    "end": 4303.79,
    "text": "And also, I think it has not really been done so much research about the exchange"
  },
  {
    "start": 4303.79,
    "end": 4308.15,
    "text": "between West German and East German design and designers."
  },
  {
    "start": 4308.29,
    "end": 4312.57,
    "text": "I mean, there was this big exhibition by Vitra where they showed a stackable"
  },
  {
    "start": 4312.57,
    "end": 4318.75,
    "text": "tableware by Röhricht, but also GDR design. And because everybody sees the similarity,"
  },
  {
    "start": 4319.15,
    "end": 4321.77,
    "text": "but I think there's still some questions to be answered."
  },
  {
    "start": 4322.15,
    "end": 4326.83,
    "text": "Yeah, it's always good to discover new parts that still have to be researched"
  },
  {
    "start": 4326.83,
    "end": 4329.55,
    "text": "and people can write PhD theses about."
  },
  {
    "start": 4330.63,
    "end": 4335.43,
    "text": "Mr. Mäntele, thank you very much for joining me today. It was a great pleasure."
  },
  {
    "start": 4335.79,
    "end": 4338.53,
    "text": "Against all technical odds! And see you soon."
  },
  {
    "start": 4338.73,
    "end": 4340.77,
    "text": "We managed this bravely together."
  },
  {
    "start": 4342.32,
    "end": 4359.31,
    "text": "Music"
  }
]