[ { "start": 14.7, "end": 23.35, "text": "Welcome to a new episode of BFRR, our Bitcoin Fiat and Rock'n Roll podcast that explores the intersection of traditional finance digital assets in digital money." }, { "start": 23.59, "end": 27.909, "text": "And helps you understand how digital assets and money will evolve in the future." }, { "start": 28.509, "end": 31.97, "text": "I'm Co-host Jonas and today i am again joined by our guest host Jonathan Dahl." }, { "start": 32.129, "end": 34.31, "text": "Hi Jonathan great to have you with us Today Again!" }, { "start": 34.629, "end": 39.69, "text": "Hi Jonas Great To Be Here Again Very Excited About Another Episode Of Digital Money Interview." }, { "start": 40.269, "end": 43.55, "text": "Absolutely, I'm sure it will be a very interesting one and entertaining." }, { "start": 44.19, "end": 54.49, "text": "And so today we have the opportunity to speak with one of the leading thinkers in digital money or digital asset space somebody who was already in this podcast a few years ago actually four years ago." }, { "start": 54.67, "end": 58.93, "text": "So this clearly shows how time flies on also how the space develops?" }, { "start": 59.949, "end": 59.949, "text": "I" }, { "start": 63.589, "end": 67.33, "text": "must say sorry Jonathan and Jonas it's great to be back on." }, { "start": 68.03, "end": 70.31, "text": "nothing has transpired in the last four years." }, { "start": 70.39, "end": 72.63, "text": "It's been boring" }, { "start": 73.509, "end": 74.509, "text": "Pretty dull hasn't it?" }, { "start": 76.53, "end": 78.949, "text": "No, he is so great to have you on this series." }, { "start": 79.15, "end": 86.389, "text": "And you know when Jonas and I were first talking about this series we very deliberately thought About what do we want to get out of it?" }, { "start": 86.47, "end": 91.09, "text": "We want people that will get a straight talk, no marketing BS." }, { "start": 91.509, "end": 98.37, "text": "People who are innovating at scale and also more of an non-European perspective." }, { "start": 98.75, "end": 111.53, "text": "I think Bitcoin, Fiat, Rock n Roll has been super successful for many years but it's really good to get sort of outside in perspective and Dante you tick all those boxes And fortunately, we had the opportunity to meet way back when." }, { "start": 111.99, "end": 119.03, "text": "The early days of the Libra Association and like I say you're one of those smartest most articulate people i know!" }, { "start": 120.07, "end": 133.29, "text": "In addition...I don't think anybody on the planet You'll have tell me if there's somebody else that has more conversations That who is spoken more to global policy makers and politicians over the past." }, { "start": 133.37, "end": 134.65, "text": "what seven eight years or so?" }, { "start": 136.95, "end": 141.23, "text": "Well, some might look at it like an occupational hazard." }, { "start": 141.37, "end": 147.769, "text": "Others might look as part of what has helped advance the policy and regulatory clarity that is now come." }, { "start": 148.45, "end": 151.69, "text": "You know there's a friend who says be careful in asking for justice." }, { "start": 151.75, "end": 155.29, "text": "you may actually just get Literally." }, { "start": 155.41, "end": 169.049, "text": "all these years later, the category that Jonathan you and I were once working on with the ill-fated very controversial Libra project is now legally permissive inside the global financial system." }, { "start": 169.63, "end": 172.35, "text": "It's no longer fringe finance it at the core of finance." }, { "start": 172.41, "end": 183.329, "text": "so in some ways we could argue our little reunion tour can equally be a reflection looking backwards but hopefully also casting our eyes into the future and what happens next." }, { "start": 183.45, "end": 188.209, "text": "But it's great to be back on, lots of great developments around the world!" }, { "start": 188.41, "end": 189.609, "text": "Well thanks for taking your time." }, { "start": 189.79, "end": 191.709, "text": "I'm so glad you're welcoming me to this show." }, { "start": 191.97, "end": 192.57, "text": "thank-you very much." }, { "start": 195.329, "end": 198.29, "text": "Don't really need to introduce you because everybody knows." }, { "start": 198.35, "end": 206.489, "text": "You and your already were in the show before, but just for completeness obviously Dante is ahead of strategy on global policy at circle." }, { "start": 206.91, "end": 208.109, "text": "And what we want to discuss today?" }, { "start": 208.17, "end": 209.51, "text": "It's really all things circle." }, { "start": 209.59, "end": 211.67, "text": "We wanna talk a little bit more about Dante's journey." }, { "start": 212.109, "end": 215.07, "text": "not too much Because we also already talked About that last time." }, { "start": 215.109, "end": 216.87, "text": "we spoke about circle strategy." }, { "start": 217.17, "end": 219.23, "text": "The business model Also kind Of there." }, { "start": 219.429, "end": 227.13, "text": "you know the Euro coins or the European stable coin euro stablecoin versus usdc how They compare, you know what the use cases are also." }, { "start": 227.23, "end": 237.89, "text": "The own L one, the arc blockchain where I'm very curious to learn more and also get a little bit of an understanding from as Jonathan said all the discussions that he had with policy makers on regulators." }, { "start": 238.31, "end": 238.989, "text": "were we stand then?" }, { "start": 239.07, "end": 241.09, "text": "Also how do look under stable coin market?" }, { "start": 241.15, "end": 247.109, "text": "so yeah kind off a very wild mix of topics but i am sure it will be interesting one." }, { "start": 247.17, "end": 248.329, "text": "And let's go into this Dante." }, { "start": 248.41, "end": 253.75, "text": "So maybe zoom back few years or even before you met Jonathan in Libra days." }, { "start": 253.829, "end": 256.709, "text": "like What were kind of the things when you started your crypto journey?" }, { "start": 256.79, "end": 261.25, "text": "Like what fascinated are you around a topic and now, in this space for so long." }, { "start": 261.329, "end": 261.709, "text": "You're busy." }, { "start": 262.33, "end": 263.65, "text": "I guess today's also pretty long." }, { "start": 263.73, "end": 267.43, "text": "like also what is driving you and motivates you every day?" }, { "start": 267.73, "end": 269.81, "text": "yeah no well that's awesome." }, { "start": 270.53, "end": 275.83, "text": "So look at early days many people You didn't discover crypto." }, { "start": 275.97, "end": 284.37, "text": "Crypto discovered you and in my case, My crypto discovery was... In my risk insurance capacity two things were happening at the same time." }, { "start": 284.43, "end": 290.35, "text": "a lot of the world's infrastructure and privacy infrastructure Was being really broken pretty easily?" }, { "start": 290.97, "end": 302.83, "text": "You may remember some years ago one Of three big credit bureaus in the World Equifax had this huge data breach And revealed publicly The personal information of nearly hundred fifty million people." }, { "start": 303.59, "end": 311.39, "text": "And that breach really underscored how much of the financial system and the broader systems we were relying on had single points of failure." }, { "start": 311.97, "end": 328.77, "text": "That was one big point of interest for me, then I did a lot work together with the former Secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge and many others on complex risks—cyber risk, political risk, climate risk you name it —and along came this novel technology blockchain." }, { "start": 331.69, "end": 336.37, "text": "And obviously, in reality we could look backwards and say see so much of this was true." }, { "start": 337.03, "end": 339.31, "text": "Was inherently disaster resistant?" }, { "start": 339.55, "end": 343.99, "text": "Nothing In the world is going to be disaster proof but inherent Disaster resistance." }, { "start": 344.07, "end": 348.07, "text": "I think it's a really great way Of thinking about re-architecting The financial system." }, { "start": 348.29, "end": 349.27, "text": "We still needed To work." }, { "start": 349.79, "end": 351.17, "text": "It needs to plug into banks." }, { "start": 351.79, "end": 353.35, "text": "But that was my original foray." }, { "start": 353.99, "end": 359.37, "text": "And then I was invited to Richard Branson's Island back in twenty seventeen." }, { "start": 359.87, "end": 363.33, "text": "There is a small gathering of forty people for one." }, { "start": 363.41, "end": 364.93, "text": "the first blockchain events." }, { "start": 364.99, "end": 367.53, "text": "they held on The island and i Was lucky enough To go." }, { "start": 368.17, "end": 374.41, "text": "but as fate would have it, I Goed to the island and the island Is flattened by A hurricane, Hurricane Irma!" }, { "start": 374.91, "end": 387.71, "text": "Then came out Of the island thinking gosh you know either correlation equals causation or There is now a demand on this group of people to really do something with this blockchain technology at scale." }, { "start": 388.15, "end": 392.91, "text": "And so that was my original crypto journey, some people bought Lamborghinis." }, { "start": 393.13, "end": 394.85, "text": "I flattened Richard Branson's Island." }, { "start": 396.71, "end": 398.09, "text": "That's really a good story Dante." }, { "start": 398.59, "end": 398.77, "text": "Wow!" }, { "start": 398.83, "end": 399.65, "text": "That's an old statement." }, { "start": 400.55, "end": 405.27, "text": "But it's also quite interesting because that is what I really like about blockchain technology, Bitcoin and Co." }, { "start": 405.51, "end": 407.53, "text": "Everybody approaches this from a different angle right?" }, { "start": 407.59, "end": 409.29, "text": "And i think i've heard many of them." }, { "start": 409.35, "end": 415.81, "text": "you know the technology being independent off-the-stage Of course new asset class with such a scarcity in everything." }, { "start": 415.87, "end": 420.11, "text": "but This risk perspective i haven't heard again for couple years." }, { "start": 420.19, "end": 420.93, "text": "so thats cool." }, { "start": 420.97, "end": 423.67, "text": "That kind of entered through this lens." }, { "start": 426.79, "end": 433.65, "text": "Now compare a little bit the situation of today with the Libra days, or maybe even before Libra day is like you talk to so many folks." }, { "start": 433.69, "end": 434.69, "text": "So how many regulators?" }, { "start": 434.75, "end": 437.99, "text": "Like what do we have the feeling where they know that market currently is?" }, { "start": 438.21, "end": 438.77, "text": "What's kind off?" }, { "start": 438.89, "end": 446.59, "text": "You know the stance of regulators often markets towards digital money because obviously this has turned one hundred eighty degrees compared to Libra or pre-Libra." }, { "start": 446.71, "end": 447.09, "text": "may be even" }, { "start": 447.25, "end": 447.41, "text": "yeah." }, { "start": 447.97, "end": 449.15, "text": "Well, yeah no question." }, { "start": 449.21, "end": 454.29, "text": "And so the funny thing is and Jonathan knows this very well he was with me in those trenches." }, { "start": 454.33, "end": 456.29, "text": "I mean first of all i would do it all over again!" }, { "start": 457.01, "end": 466.81, "text": "If you look at my early writing at the time...I was writing in Forbes uh..and other publications....i was no fan of big tech especially after the two thousand sixteen election." }, { "start": 467.51, "end": 473.93, "text": "we had privacy issues and-and the argument is if I couldn't trust you with cat videos and election integrity ...I probably couldn't." }, { "start": 475.39, "end": 483.43, "text": "But and the other interesting irony is a lot of people were criticizing me that I had quote joined to The Dark Side, but they were criticizing Me on WhatsApp." }, { "start": 483.55, "end": 489.99, "text": "And i said ah interesting That A Facebook owned Encrypted Messaging Platform Could Work for You To Criticize Me?" }, { "start": 490.09, "end": 493.83, "text": "But It Couldn't Work For Money In Financial Inclusion And All The Rest." }, { "start": 494.07, "end": 498.59, "text": "So so i Had To Make A Personal Calculus Of Win Lose Or Draw." }, { "start": 499.33, "end": 508.91, "text": "The Libra project would change at least the global conversation because of scale and effort had to be taken seriously." }, { "start": 509.95, "end": 512.03, "text": "And no question, the regulators took it very seriously." }, { "start": 513.65, "end": 517.01, "text": "seven years later you fast forward in so many ways." }, { "start": 517.27, "end": 521.85, "text": "I think that rise of stablecoins vindicates digital money side." }, { "start": 521.97, "end": 529.349, "text": "The global regulatory convergence vindicates that the regulators were justified in one part on some of the fears they had." }, { "start": 529.79, "end": 534.11, "text": "But, by the other hand... They have been justified and bringing the activity of stablecoins into the perimeter." }, { "start": 534.67, "end": 535.39, "text": "And then third!" }, { "start": 535.89, "end": 554.089, "text": "The technology maturation we've also seen over this seven-year journey In Circle has been right at the heart frankly Vindicates these three things needed to happen at some point in time, in order to reach both institutional adoption and end user reach and scale." }, { "start": 554.709, "end": 555.469, "text": "And so I think we're there!" }, { "start": 557.99, "end": 563.63, "text": "It's been an extraordinary journey but hopefully what comes next is also where you can really start showing real-world impact." }, { "start": 564.43, "end": 570.589, "text": "human impacts because of the financial system that got me out a bed for Libra is still the challenge today, right?" }, { "start": 570.65, "end": 571.589, "text": "It's very analog." }, { "start": 571.67, "end": 574.13, "text": "Its slow moving it expensive its costly." }, { "start": 574.31, "end": 582.73, "text": "there are billions of people on the margins and so I think that much work is unfinished but many obstacles in historical risks also no longer here." }, { "start": 584.55, "end": 600.689, "text": "Before we jump back into this episode a quick word about an event close to our hearts The Point Zero Forum An annual gathering of over two thousand policymakers, central bankers regulators and industry leaders at the intersection of finance technology." }, { "start": 600.79, "end": 601.349, "text": "And policy." }, { "start": 602.089, "end": 618.189, "text": "BFRR is proud media partner off the point zero forum an we'll be reporting life on site with the full co-host team organized by the Global Finance and Technology Network, and the Swiss State Secretariat of Finance." }, { "start": 618.23, "end": 623.189, "text": "The Point Zero Forum takes place in Zurich from twenty-third to twenty-fifth June." }, { "start": 623.23, "end": 624.27, "text": "twenty-twenty six." }, { "start": 624.79, "end": 641.87, "text": "this year's lineup includes swiss federal councillor karin keller souter tether CEO paolo arduino former crypto head of policy at Andresen Horowitz brian quintance Nvidia's EMEA financial technology lead Dr." }, { "start": 642.11, "end": 651.31, "text": "Jochen Papenbrock, the agenda covers everything from AI in financial services and digital assets of stable coins tokenization." }, { "start": 658.569, "end": 672.91, "text": "Come meet us in Zurich, register at pointzeroforum.com and as a BFRR listener you get thirty percent off the full-price industry pass with code bfrr." }, { "start": 672.969, "end": 676.29, "text": "Twenty twenty six." }, { "start": 676.329, "end": 676.709, "text": "I repeat" }, { "start": 682.31, "end": 688.81, "text": "Yeah, I think it's a great way to sum up Dante and I don't know about you but... ...I have so many people that've told me over the years." }, { "start": 689.29, "end": 693.27, "text": "You know first of all one comment was- It was the best possible idea right?" }, { "start": 693.31, "end": 694.41, "text": "People loved The Vision!" }, { "start": 694.449, "end": 695.23, "text": "And IT WAS A GREAT FISION!" }, { "start": 695.65, "end": 697.99, "text": "Best Possible Idea from THE WORST POSSIBLE COMPANY!" }, { "start": 698.13, "end": 698.27, "text": "Right?!" }, { "start": 698.75, "end": 699.67, "text": "That is ONE JOKE!" }, { "start": 699.709, "end": 699.829, "text": "Right!?" }, { "start": 700.17, "end": 703.79, "text": "To kinda over focus sometimes on what was then still called Facebook." }, { "start": 704.87, "end": 707.73, "text": "But the other side of this is.. So Many People Have Told Me Oh Thank" }, { "start": 707.81, "end": 707.87, "text": "You!!" }, { "start": 707.969, "end": 714.63, "text": "Thank You Guys For... taking, you know getting the bloody nose for us and kind of pushing the envelope a bit." }, { "start": 715.069, "end": 720.99, "text": "I used to joke that if i was working at Napster or Spotify at the time it turned out to be Napster not Spotify." }, { "start": 721.05, "end": 721.829, "text": "but there you go!" }, { "start": 722.709, "end": 729.61, "text": "Yeah exactly well um...you know i'm gonna get a t-shirt That says uh..I moved on from Libra." }, { "start": 729.81, "end": 747.469, "text": "You Should Too And, but undoubtedly the project was a heat shield and undoubtedly some degree of credit is owed because I don't think we would have had nearly as much regulatory attention for good or for ill without Project Leg Libra showing up." }, { "start": 748.41, "end": 752.31, "text": "With the benefit of hindsight i think we got a lot right over that period of time." }, { "start": 752.63, "end": 766.03, "text": "For example this is somewhat European oriented show But people like Peter Kirstens who I joke the godfather of Mika or Micah, the markets and crypto assets regulation." }, { "start": 766.31, "end": 770.99, "text": "And he and I saw each other not long ago... He's like well if i'm The Godfather then you're the midwife." }, { "start": 771.51, "end": 773.709, "text": "because uh the Libra project catalyzed." }, { "start": 774.469, "end": 786.73, "text": "Uh the acceleration Of those rules in Europe and now we have legal and regulatory clarity In the third largest economy in the world The United States caught up with the Genius Act and You know the united states." }, { "start": 787.469, "end": 792.17, "text": "We are a bit more laissez faire than europe is in terms of rulemaking But there's no question." }, { "start": 793.11, "end": 806.29, "text": "One of the things that got Congress to move, aside from many years of development of those rules was the notion we were going to follow the Europeans as opposed to lead considering that majority stablecoins in market are dollar-referenced?" }, { "start": 806.87, "end": 813.65, "text": "Yeah, one hundred percent and we're gonna double click a little bit on it later along with regulation part." }, { "start": 813.969, "end": 827.67, "text": "Let's spend just a minute though get off Libra And let's talk about circle And your strategy and business model, most people know Circle obviously as the company behind USDC." }, { "start": 829.03, "end": 846.99, "text": "I have sensed...I know this is stuff that's been going on for many years but in last six or twelve months Circle much more positioned itself a full-stack financial infrastructure company as opposed to just a quote unquote, pure stablecoin issuer." }, { "start": 847.209, "end": 854.99, "text": "You have, as Neonis mentioned really interesting things like your L-one with ARC you've got that acquisition of interop labs or circle payment network" }, { "start": 855.069, "end": 855.189, "text": "etc.," }, { "start": 856.39, "end": 860.75, "text": "so on the high level how do you talk folks about this?" }, { "start": 861.49, "end": 863.31, "text": "How do want market think about?" }, { "start": 863.43, "end": 868.29, "text": "Circle today is an issuer and network infrastructure provider?" }, { "start": 869.03, "end": 869.49, "text": "all three?" }, { "start": 872.349, "end": 873.65, "text": "Yeah, no it's a great question." }, { "start": 873.75, "end": 875.25, "text": "So you know circle." }, { "start": 875.849, "end": 890.79, "text": "while most widely known for issuing the world's leading regulated digital dollar USDC We're also, frankly the leader in all of the categories tokenization and related infrastructure." }, { "start": 891.11, "end": 902.29, "text": "So we have USDC table stakes payment innovation dollar based innovation stable coin land across more than thirty block chains a ubiquitous product." }, { "start": 902.37, "end": 917.23, "text": "that sort solve so many both historical regulatory current ongoing trust safety issues which is If you have to take my or Jeremy's word for it on crypto Twitter, that the money is in fact there." }, { "start": 917.329, "end": 918.449, "text": "It's not a trusted product." }, { "start": 918.51, "end": 920.469, "text": "so The Trust But Verify Test." }, { "start": 920.589, "end": 923.23, "text": "USDC Is The Leader The Regulatory Test." }, { "start": 923.329, "end": 928.11, "text": "USDC Is The leader The liquidity banking and on-and off ramps into the real economy test." }, { "start": 928.63, "end": 943.79, "text": "There's no peer To usdc anywhere In the world but obviously there's more too circle in the category of tokenizing Money than USD C. We also run and operate USYC, which is the world's largest tokenized money market fund." }, { "start": 943.99, "end": 951.11, "text": "A yield bearing innovation that has outpaced the growth of all other tokenize-money market funds there." }, { "start": 951.589, "end": 955.65, "text": "And then lastly we run the largest Euro denominated stablecoin EURC." }, { "start": 956.51, "end": 972.39, "text": "So in what a lot of central bankers are now calling a multi-mONEY system credit to the Bank Of England for their term of art Circle as World leader renditions of money on the internet with a dollar, a euro and The World's Largest Tokenized Money Market Fund." }, { "start": 972.75, "end": 974.209, "text": "But there is more to this company than that." }, { "start": 974.51, "end": 989.61, "text": "obviously over our thirteen year history we've been at very bleeding edge in the rise of blockchain based financial services And were multi-chain or even an omni chain company In terms of circles positioning At core all these infrastructure Part." }, { "start": 989.73, "end": 999.23, "text": "what early journey has given us Is ability also serve as abstraction layer over the crypto and crypto, in the blockchain and crypto." }, { "start": 999.589, "end": 1019.49, "text": "By giving both institutions developers on the broader market The ability to say you know we could build on circles technology stack For everything as simple as the last mile wallet infrastructure or Everything is complex and critical As a cross-chain bridging infrastructure through circles cross chain transfer protocol cctp." }, { "start": 1020.55, "end": 1023.67, "text": "Those are those are known developments the circle technology offering." }, { "start": 1024.089, "end": 1027.49, "text": "and then we have a couple of new projects coming online or online now." }, { "start": 1027.849, "end": 1035.589, "text": "One of them is The Circle Payments Network, which is an orchestration platform for cross-border money movement with stable coins And other forms of tokenized money." }, { "start": 1035.99, "end": 1042.55, "text": "That's a market neutral infrastructure not meant to cater singularly To our stablecoins but broad more broadly though the full market." }, { "start": 1043.43, "end": 1048.629, "text": "think of it like Swift for tokenized money as a for want of a better description." }, { "start": 1049.03, "end": 1055.889, "text": "and then we have a blockchain coming online called ARC Which we describe is frankly bigger than payments in bigger-than stablecoins." }, { "start": 1056.03, "end": 1067.909, "text": "We think of arc as an economic operating system For the internet because there's so much activity that will rely on Open Blockchain standards, and we wanted to bring the best of all these lessons To bear on." }, { "start": 1068.09, "end": 1069.35, "text": "Arc has a new innovation." }, { "start": 1069.43, "end": 1070.09, "text": "Coming from circle" }, { "start": 1070.51, "end": 1072.889, "text": "And I mean, Dante when you mentioned all the initiatives." }, { "start": 1093.77, "end": 1096.11, "text": "new institutions launching, new blockchains." }, { "start": 1096.29, "end": 1100.53, "text": "New banks and E-money institutes that want to launch stablecoins right?" }, { "start": 1100.59, "end": 1104.409, "text": "And I'm always asking myself through lens is this really necessary?" }, { "start": 1104.51, "end": 1108.35, "text": "so you know another new infrastructure would make the system more complicated." }, { "start": 1108.43, "end": 1119.71, "text": "So i asked a question for everybody who says we build a new infrastructure but what's kind of let say value propositions of ARC also compares all other L ones out there." }, { "start": 1119.909, "end": 1122.19, "text": "why did they decide to set up your own blockchain?" }, { "start": 1122.649, "end": 1127.25, "text": "Yeah, no it's a good question and is the same question we ask of The Broader Market." }, { "start": 1127.33, "end": 1145.25, "text": "And I have an article that i wrote for the Korean Herald newspaper about stablecoins which is...the open-question every institution is now asking Now That We Have Legal & Regulatory Clarity at least on both sides of the Atlantic with Genius Act and Mika Is Build Buyer Partner?" }, { "start": 1145.83, "end": 1167.93, "text": "In my analogy to the Stablecoin category is you and I wouldn't want to necessarily build our own AI large language model or our own data center because we wanna tinker with AI any more than it would be a very bad strategic decision for, household name financial institution or global payments company." }, { "start": 1168.07, "end": 1175.51, "text": "To try to re-engineer the liquidity, the ubiquity of broad market access in the multi chain axis at stablecoin." }, { "start": 1176.05, "end": 1188.889, "text": "And history proves that when A lot of the stablecoin flavors that we have seen over the years, from the stable coin versus central bank digital currency to this deposit token debate." }, { "start": 1188.99, "end": 1209.29, "text": "To the white-labeled stablecoin debate...to closed loop stablecoin debates in the end The liquidity and network effects on digital money like USDC also very much analogizes to success for other world scale technologies AI models, better to build on the existing models than try and build a rival model." }, { "start": 1209.629, "end": 1211.01, "text": "And we think that same holds true with money." }, { "start": 1211.85, "end": 1216.79, "text": "A lot of companies have figured it out what they're serving as is connectivity layers in on-and off ramps." }, { "start": 1217.23, "end": 1227.149, "text": "The banks who've done their best during this seven year journey were talking about having been the banks stuck into their core competency and had banked the sector rather then tried to have co-operative with them." }, { "start": 1227.83, "end": 1230.81, "text": "so as stablecoin grows balance sheet for the banks grow." }, { "start": 1232.909, "end": 1236.95, "text": "Why build a blockchain right at circle when you're a multi-chain company?" }, { "start": 1237.03, "end": 1249.69, "text": "It's very fair question and part of what we're acknowledging is What is the next layer of both performance privacy quantum resistance And other issues that are on the horizon That we know?" }, { "start": 1250.05, "end": 1257.37, "text": "not only will the developers need to continue building on or relying On but will be one of the critical technological unlocks for institutional adoption." }, { "start": 1258.07, "end": 1259.71, "text": "So arc Is meant to fill that void." }, { "start": 1260.25, "end": 1261.97, "text": "it's also meant to do things." }, { "start": 1262.53, "end": 1264.11, "text": "Blockchains are best known for it, right?" }, { "start": 1264.69, "end": 1267.71, "text": "Serve as an open layer of economic activity on the internet." }, { "start": 1268.33, "end": 1269.47, "text": "Cater to developers." }, { "start": 1269.77, "end": 1275.85, "text": "Abstract away from costs and other issues that developers face when they're building unopened technologies." }, { "start": 1276.07, "end": 1289.87, "text": "but in some respects financial services shareware And the notion of shareware, just like USDC is that ecosystem does not carry the cost of compliance liquidity banking integration and all of the operations of that infrastructure." }, { "start": 1289.909, "end": 1291.01, "text": "That's borne by circle." }, { "start": 1291.57, "end": 1308.27, "text": "with ARK we're trying to not only carry that path forward but also bring into our a range of institutional ecosystem partners who would be validators on the network But will also ensure The Network has broad access around the world again for more than payments or broader economic activity." }, { "start": 1308.97, "end": 1320.629, "text": "But there's a lot of lessons learned in being a multi-chain company for all these years that are designed into ARC, while at the same time not losing our DNA and spirit of being plugged to the rest of blockchain ecosystem." }, { "start": 1320.75, "end": 1321.649, "text": "The proof is in the pudding!" }, { "start": 1322.23, "end": 1327.43, "text": "USDC is on more than thirty blockchains and counting... ...and we will continue this commitment as well." }, { "start": 1329.21, "end": 1342.21, "text": "You're touching exactly one issue I was going to talk about because To me, it sounds like ARC is more geared towards kind of traditional institutions that are coming in and needing exactly what you're describing." }, { "start": 1342.67, "end": 1356.67, "text": "At the same time circle's always to date this strategy has been around market neutral open common goods very antithetical to walled gardens approach And I think we were just answering that but i wanted double click on it." }, { "start": 1356.71, "end": 1364.35, "text": "It seems not an either or proposition Player is in the market." }, { "start": 1364.87, "end": 1366.29, "text": "That'd be kind of a good way to think about that." }, { "start": 1366.37, "end": 1367.389, "text": "or yeah, how would you think?" }, { "start": 1367.47, "end": 1367.69, "text": "About it?" }, { "start": 1368.129, "end": 1387.85, "text": "totally and as you know very well Jonathan The real boss fight In some ways is is walled gardens in the payment system like that Is where How useful is a stable coin if the stablecoin rides on closed rails or on You Know networks that cater two incumbents, right?" }, { "start": 1388.27, "end": 1390.85, "text": "So I've always warned that you know sure notionally." }, { "start": 1390.95, "end": 1395.05, "text": "You could issue a white labeled payment stable coin and you can put your corporate brand on it." }, { "start": 1395.629, "end": 1410.79, "text": "but if all It does is create a digital twin of the underlying closed payments system That many of the world's big payment systems already operate then you just created a digital Twin of a walled garden And i call those monetary airline miles because they're usable on closed networks." }, { "start": 1412.09, "end": 1422.47, "text": "Obviously, the breakthrough innovation of a stablecoin in the context of global payments and banking is that for the first time in human history we have this settlement asset." }, { "start": 1422.87, "end": 1428.17, "text": "And then messaging instruction one product it's total break through which why?" }, { "start": 1428.37, "end": 1437.47, "text": "as you know very well in the Libra project We had originally twenty eight organizations among them The biggest payment companies on the world In the World." }, { "start": 1437.649, "end": 1439.59, "text": "they weren't there for charity or altruism." }, { "start": 1439.69, "end": 1444.75, "text": "They were their because at the dawn Netflix, you don't want to be blockbuster video." }, { "start": 1445.55, "end": 1446.77, "text": "And you fast forward today." }, { "start": 1447.09, "end": 1464.93, "text": "and USDC and the total circulation of stablecoins has crossed over into three hundred billion in total circulation but even a comparatively small circulation through velocity-of-money supports an extraordinary amount of economic activity and settlement speed and velocities etc." }, { "start": 1465.25, "end": 1465.53, "text": "are part." }, { "start": 1466.07, "end": 1476.649, "text": "USDC, you know in my tenure at Circle has gone from availability and a small handful of wallets to more than one hundred eighty five countries around the world." }, { "start": 1477.47, "end": 1482.07, "text": "Eighty trillion dollars in cumulative on-chain economic activity is supported by USDC." }, { "start": 1482.93, "end": 1499.77, "text": "And The key Is To Do That In As Open A Matter Possible So that Any Internet Enabled Wallet And Device Can Be A Compliant Payment Endpoint but also to address the institutional regulatory safety soundness and other expectations that are uncompromising." }, { "start": 1500.81, "end": 1509.71, "text": "And so credit to the regulators because both Genius and Mika, our tech neutral when it comes to blockchain infrastructure they're putting a huge amount of obligation on the issuer." }, { "start": 1510.389, "end": 1516.05, "text": "But the infrastructure itself is designed to be open and I think that's a huge win for the world if we keep that right." }, { "start": 1516.81, "end": 1518.51, "text": "Got absolutely no could agree more." }, { "start": 1518.75, "end": 1531.45, "text": "let me Step back a little bit on the business model aspect of this because you know looking through your latest results The reserve income is still, uh You know the dominant earnings line at this point." }, { "start": 1531.95, "end": 1533.59, "text": "and not to bring Libra Back into." }, { "start": 1533.649, "end": 1538.23, "text": "This I should stop doing that now But i remember when we were you know?" }, { "start": 1538.33, "end": 1547.47, "text": "Looking That was a core component obviously Of the the business Model And it's its float driven Model Is A great Model to have until it's not." }, { "start": 1548.389, "end": 1549.129, "text": "And we experience" }, { "start": 1549.17, "end": 1550.29, "text": "exactly that timing, right?" }, { "start": 1550.55, "end": 1554.389, "text": "Rates went... We're up and then they went down even to the point of being negative in Europe." }, { "start": 1554.49, "end": 1573.59, "text": "so thinking through everything you just said about moving from sort-of a reserve income model to all the other really interesting things you guys are building out about money movement How you might monetize that what would have to be true for the non reserve side of the business?" }, { "start": 1573.75, "end": 1575.97, "text": "To become genuinely material." }, { "start": 1576.35, "end": 1604.51, "text": "Yeah, I mean so well For one as a public company The good news is any inquiry and any query about the business model the revenue model and beyond Is answerable Quarterly and Answerable candidly in our category of Business often In real time because the circulation Of usdc EURC, USYC and all of these core tokenized money products is a real-time reportable activity on the broad internet." }, { "start": 1604.59, "end": 1618.909, "text": "And one of the reasons we think both the market trust circle and the regulators have effectively made our way of doing business The standard to be a stablecoin issuer Trust transparency auditability verifiable activities etc." }, { "start": 1619.29, "end": 1621.909, "text": "Is the legal basis for issuing stablecoins around the world?" }, { "start": 1622.07, "end": 1625.03, "text": "It's because if it is too serve as a form of money on the Internet." }, { "start": 1625.93, "end": 1627.59, "text": "Trust is a feature, not a bug." }, { "start": 1627.69, "end": 1629.43, "text": "Transparency's a feature and so" }, { "start": 1629.57, "end": 1629.649, "text": "on.\"." }, { "start": 1630.77, "end": 1644.61, "text": "A lot of the business model implications for tokenizing money I think are very well known as a result of how well-known it was that not all currencies were extraordinarily great candidates at being stablecoins or fully reserved payment stablecoins." }, { "start": 1644.79, "end": 1659.73, "text": "Frankly, not many world banks would be placed in issuing stablecoins because they risked their balance sheet unless it is guarded and preserved, and matched one-to-one with assets and liabilities." }, { "start": 1659.77, "end": 1666.51, "text": "the way a stablecoin issuer has to live would not be great balance sheets from which to issue fully reserved open digital money." }, { "start": 1667.09, "end": 1679.85, "text": "That's now the legal requirement under The Genius Act—which if large bank wanted to issue a stable coin under genius they'd have to do so entirely separate balance sheet without risk or rehypothecation or leverage in the balance sheet." }, { "start": 1680.95, "end": 1684.649, "text": "So all of those pillars of a business model, the stablecoin ish were well known." }, { "start": 1685.17, "end": 1689.03, "text": "And we answer those questions I would encourage you and listeners to." }, { "start": 1689.79, "end": 1700.05, "text": "our recent commentary from Jeremy Alair at The Close Of Last Year in the first quarter was really intelligent commentary broadly on Circle its Business & the Rest." }, { "start": 1700.79, "end": 1704.649, "text": "What is then implied by the other side of house, if you will." }, { "start": 1704.93, "end": 1723.79, "text": "The Circle Payments Network, technology offering and all that rest are activities meant to continue advancing economic mobility, access and velocity not just in stable coins or crypto but one of the horizon opportunities we anticipate." }, { "start": 1728.649, "end": 1741.83, "text": "You know, if the joke historically was well stablecoins are merely poker chips in a crypto casino and people who made that comment ignored how they would be apart of an always on global financial system or that they would use as a form of collateral and capital markets." }, { "start": 1741.889, "end": 1744.51, "text": "In their current forum People will have missed that transition." }, { "start": 1745.149, "end": 1757.85, "text": "I think it's similar transition is afoot right now where we go from poker chips into crypto casino to always-on digital money perfect medium of exchange for agentic commerce and economic activity, that's happening." }, { "start": 1758.129, "end": 1760.55, "text": "And it starts slowly at first but effectively." }, { "start": 1760.73, "end": 1768.57, "text": "stablecoins are the perfect medium-of-exchange there because software will speak to software... ...and because how ubiquitous open infrastructure is." }, { "start": 1768.79, "end": 1775.649, "text": "so you have two categories of activities catered to technologists and developers coinciding at exactly the same time." }, { "start": 1776.19, "end": 1785.37, "text": "So there's a lot, not just in terms of implied monetization but also in terms connectivity and entirely new forms that none could anticipate." }, { "start": 1785.61, "end": 1800.43, "text": "You mentioned before Dante some use cases where stable coins are already used today which is often around decentralized finance maybe Hatching towards other crypto activities and you also mentioned that, of course." }, { "start": 1800.49, "end": 1814.409, "text": "And I guess everybody is looking for more and more real world use cases in the sense of remittances which are strongly accelerating but globally at least my feeling still on a low level." }, { "start": 1814.49, "end": 1816.129, "text": "like where would currently say?" }, { "start": 1816.23, "end": 1818.73, "text": "Where do we currently stand in terms of the use case?" }, { "start": 1819.409, "end": 1822.889, "text": "stable coins fulfilled today or can go into future?" }, { "start": 1826.51, "end": 1827.79, "text": "potential exponential one, right?" }, { "start": 1827.85, "end": 1829.77, "text": "But where do you generally think we stand here." }, { "start": 1830.35, "end": 1832.889, "text": "How much of the use cases are already satisfied" }, { "start": 1833.05, "end": 1833.27, "text": "today?\"?" }, { "start": 1833.409, "end": 1833.51, "text": "Yeah" }, { "start": 1833.629, "end": 1866.75, "text": "yeah well I mean look historically maybe four years ago even i might have used the analogy that what are the use-cases for a physical dollar which...I had editorial credit to Jeremy Allaire for that line but you fast forwarded it today and now And you could just see this range of integrations with traditional financial service operators and platforms from the visas to the master cards, places in between." }, { "start": 1867.43, "end": 1879.87, "text": "To a novel use case that is being encouraged by capital markets regulators like the CFTC here in United States encouraging fully reserved stablecoins and USDC by name as a form of collateral on capital markets." }, { "start": 1879.909, "end": 1881.03, "text": "That's total novelty." }, { "start": 1882.31, "end": 1888.649, "text": "And in the category, it would be a risk management improvement to be able to have programmable fully reserved money." }, { "start": 1889.31, "end": 1897.389, "text": "In capital markets It would be huge risk management improvements in terms of transparency price discovery settlement finality liquidity etc." }, { "start": 1898.389, "end": 1902.85, "text": "Those are new and those are you know just two examples of this institutional adoption." }, { "start": 1903.27, "end": 1904.87, "text": "I think that things better still." }, { "start": 1904.99, "end": 1914.43, "text": "true though especially in a world with so much political risk and headline macroeconomic uncertainty, is the aspirational nature of access to U.S." }, { "start": 1914.51, "end": 1919.55, "text": "dollar really is heightened in periods of geoeconomic and geopolitical stress right?" }, { "start": 1919.629, "end": 1942.09, "text": "So if you're an active conflict area or war zone where your domestic currency is hyperinflationary The growth of stablecoin supporting wallets, along with the regulatory clarity that comes with the category today means more people in unstable regions now have access to a stable currency." }, { "start": 1942.55, "end": 1953.85, "text": "And so the store-of-value use case is easy to ignore because it may not necessarily represent another press release—another large Wall Street institution adopts stablecoin." }, { "start": 1954.129, "end": 1966.129, "text": "but I think human-first, human centric adoption story of stablecoins is a store value against local hyperinflationary currencies." }, { "start": 1966.21, "end": 1973.61, "text": "I think it's really important one A lot of the agentic activity that we see and some if were trying to catalyze its circle." }, { "start": 1974.01, "end": 1981.67, "text": "for example We ran the world first AI native and fully AI judged hackathon with open claw." }, { "start": 1982.389, "end": 1997.97, "text": "And we set this project in process-in motion at first, perhaps as an internal experiment but then when saw the success of agents judging agents being able to pursue economic reward payable USDC stablecoins." }, { "start": 1998.389, "end": 2002.05, "text": "We could see that literal always on smart economy can take off." }, { "start": 2002.87, "end": 2011.09, "text": "so my advice to regulators policy makers central bankers is you cannot have the economy of the future unless you have money in the future." }, { "start": 2012.09, "end": 2019.09, "text": "You could really see lots and lots integration of stablecoins plus this novel market that's coming online, they're very powerful." }, { "start": 2019.649, "end": 2022.61, "text": "I am equal parts excited but scared by what we" }, { "start": 2022.649, "end": 2022.87, "text": "just did... I" }, { "start": 2025.01, "end": 2027.29, "text": "think it will be equal part." }, { "start": 2027.33, "end": 2028.61, "text": "so ask me in six" }, { "start": 2028.71, "end": 2028.889, "text": "months" }, { "start": 2029.97, "end": 2033.75, "text": "no super interesting let us know touched on a little bit." }, { "start": 2034.09, "end": 2037.11, "text": "But I want to go back to regulations, global regulation." }, { "start": 2037.71, "end": 2049.67, "text": "And at the onset literally...I can't personally think of anybody that has had more conversations with globally-literally global regulators for many years." }, { "start": 2050.33, "end": 2053.81, "text": "So you could talk about pros and cons and differences in similarities." }, { "start": 2053.87, "end": 2055.29, "text": "so i'd like unpack it a little bit." }, { "start": 2056.55, "end": 2061.43, "text": "Mika from your perspective we've got Genius Act and Clarity act." }, { "start": 2063.029, "end": 2070.529, "text": "Talk a little bit about your perspective and particularly circle's perspective on where do these regimes overlap cleanly?" }, { "start": 2071.19, "end": 2072.35, "text": "Where did they conflict?" }, { "start": 2072.889, "end": 2080.509, "text": "what kind of operational complexity does that bring accompany like like Circle having to do this in a global scalable way." }, { "start": 2081.009, "end": 2087.27, "text": "Yeah, well first Back to my earlier comment, again with attribution that be careful in asking for justice." }, { "start": 2087.35, "end": 2088.13, "text": "you might just get it." }, { "start": 2088.73, "end": 2089.75, "text": "And so we got it right." }, { "start": 2090.07, "end": 2104.77, "text": "crypto broadly and My long journey in this industry has always clamored For Acknowledgement Be at regulatory acknowledgement the imprimatur of being an insured Blockchain platform or an ensured crypto project Or integration With a banking system." }, { "start": 2104.91, "end": 2106.21, "text": "So We Got It!" }, { "start": 2107.09, "end": 2113.87, "text": "And by today's regulatory standards, if you're operating in this space and your unregulated is because you chose to avoid regulation altogether." }, { "start": 2114.47, "end": 2120.81, "text": "Arbitrage race to the bottom are still tendencies but they're no longer a feature right?" }, { "start": 2121.47, "end": 2121.73, "text": "Here In The" }, { "start": 2121.85, "end": 2122.19, "text": "U.S.," }, { "start": 2122.77, "end": 2125.85, "text": "the era of Regulation through Enforcement Is Long Gone." }, { "start": 2126.31, "end": 2139.529, "text": "Even If Clarity Act Stalls The leadership of each of the major market institutions, regulators here in the US have used their own existing authorities to advance market certainty and regulatory clarity." }, { "start": 2139.67, "end": 2143.37, "text": "Otherwise institutional adoption would not have happened full stop." }, { "start": 2144.09, "end": 2148.23, "text": "think about how long it took an alternative to the internal combustion engine." }, { "start": 2148.41, "end": 2160.41, "text": "take off despite the fact that electric vehicles were opportunity for decades didn't just take breakthroughs and innovation, it also took regulation to finally catch up with innovation." }, { "start": 2160.509, "end": 2176.91, "text": "So I think the same is happening with tokenization blockchain stablecoins as a category but when you start to compare in contrast i wrote an article for The World Economic Forum comparing Mika to genius there's about an eighty percent overlap in similarity between the two." }, { "start": 2177.73, "end": 2178.79, "text": "A stablecoin issuer." }, { "start": 2179.11, "end": 2181.509, "text": "It's a bankruptcy remote structure With no risk." }, { "start": 2181.87, "end": 2184.65, "text": "trust, transparency and accountability are features not bugs." }, { "start": 2185.19, "end": 2187.41, "text": "You're a near peer to electronic money in Europe." }, { "start": 2187.83, "end": 2188.79, "text": "here in the United States." }, { "start": 2188.87, "end": 2190.13, "text": "The Genius Act creates." }, { "start": 2197.33, "end": 2206.25, "text": "There are some fundamental differences, however where ironically despite Europe's tendency for consumer protection to be the heart of a European regulatory regime." }, { "start": 2206.73, "end": 2211.83, "text": "The Genius Act is actually much more conservative and restrictive on a stable coin issuer than Mika." }, { "start": 2212.59, "end": 2223.91, "text": "For example in Mika you have to have reserves inside the banking system Amongst a dispersed group of banks and one would argue based on classical bank risk management." }, { "start": 2224.09, "end": 2225.39, "text": "that is actually an improvement." }, { "start": 2225.83, "end": 2230.65, "text": "I Actually think it's the source of risk Because what happens if the balance sheet of the banks become a source?" }, { "start": 2230.71, "end": 2232.69, "text": "Of risk like we saw here in United States." }, { "start": 2232.73, "end": 2233.33, "text": "A few years ago." }, { "start": 2233.59, "end": 2237.87, "text": "And so, that's uh That's a critical flaw designed into Mika that i would argue." }, { "start": 2237.99, "end": 2250.61, "text": "as mica comes up for review In twenty-twenty seven they ought to revisit its way too prescriptive Whereas the u.s regime Is much more principled But nonetheless, call it eighty percent equivalent." }, { "start": 2250.83, "end": 2265.05, "text": "And so now the fight that we all have to push for broadly is harmonization and passportability of equivalent rules because as you can imagine there's a little bit of a tendency To want to balkanize ironically open internet-based economic activity." }, { "start": 2265.43, "end": 2271.55, "text": "And so we're fighting for this notion of regulatory reciprocity and harmonization, as a matter fact." }, { "start": 2271.79, "end": 2278.15, "text": "another thing that would be a little ironic in an America First domain that we are now living is the Genius Act." }, { "start": 2278.39, "end": 2280.91, "text": "says America first but it doesn't say America alone." }, { "start": 2281.17, "end": 2288.31, "text": "In fact it endows the Treasury Department with ability to seek out international harmonization and regulatory reciprocity." }, { "start": 2290.13, "end": 2304.07, "text": "And so the very first example of this might be the transatlantic task force on modernizing markets between U.S and United Kingdom, which was announced by our Treasury Secretary Scott Besant in the UK Chancellor of the Exchequer Rachel Reeves." }, { "start": 2304.59, "end": 2306.11, "text": "A little bit technical examples." }, { "start": 2306.91, "end": 2320.41, "text": "but internet value can only truly work if regulations of this activity acknowledge scale and acknowledge the global nature of the product, you start to see rules in regimes emerge that are harmonized." }, { "start": 2322.05, "end": 2323.91, "text": "So there's a lot there on this domain." }, { "start": 2324.07, "end": 2332.95, "text": "And then obviously The United States is catching up with the rest of MECA With follow-on legislation from the Genius Act known as the Clarity Act which would look at crypto market structure." }, { "start": 2333.35, "end": 2334.07, "text": "What's commodity?" }, { "start": 2334.23, "end": 2334.93, "text": "What security?" }, { "start": 2335.029, "end": 2335.87, "text": "What collectible?" }, { "start": 2339.07, "end": 2340.99, "text": "We're close to the finish line." }, { "start": 2341.17, "end": 2357.65, "text": "There's some equity issues that need to be managed there around yield versus no-yield and stablecoins, but you could start seeing a little bit of bipartisan streak emerging for this bill as well which would level up fully with a regime comparable." }, { "start": 2359.25, "end": 2359.85, "text": "That's great." }, { "start": 2359.97, "end": 2370.41, "text": "I was going to ask you about the UK because very...I can say with confidence, very seldom do we have somebody on this show that has given evidence before The House of Lords." }, { "start": 2370.71, "end": 2371.49, "text": "so" }, { "start": 2371.55, "end": 2372.509, "text": "congratulations!" }, { "start": 2376.509, "end": 2378.25, "text": "Just quickly kind of briefly touched upon it." }, { "start": 2378.29, "end": 2385.93, "text": "but is your sense there from a UK perspective no longer part of EU looking at harmonizing?" }, { "start": 2386.89, "end": 2389.529, "text": "So how folks are thinking about that." }, { "start": 2389.81, "end": 2396.009, "text": "Yeah, well yeah indeed I've given evidence now at the House of Lords which was a lot of fun." }, { "start": 2397.45, "end": 2411.73, "text": "my big concern was not to slip into an affected Downton Abbey accent as i was responding to the lords and all their inquiries but frankly it was amongst all of the hearings that have ever done period It Was The Most Substantive." }, { "start": 2412.19, "end": 2413.83, "text": "There were no political potshots." }, { "start": 2415.11, "end": 2426.15, "text": "And the parliamentary inquiry really went deep into this subject matter and demanded of their witnesses, myself included a representation of their expertise as opposed to trying to embarrass us as witnesses." }, { "start": 2426.23, "end": 2429.35, "text": "so it was uh... Really great experience overall!" }, { "start": 2429.73, "end": 2443.65, "text": "Then I wrote an article in The Financial Times shortly afterwards basically drawing on the UK number one play-to-its strengths which is incredibly important global financial center That has for the better part of the rise of digital assets." }, { "start": 2443.77, "end": 2448.81, "text": "now a multi trillion dollar category Has been on the sidelines taking a wait-and-see approach." }, { "start": 2449.61, "end": 2459.41, "text": "that Wait and see approach was justified historically because FTX And a lot of the bad things had happened in crypto necessarily did not touch their shores nor their financial system." }, { "start": 2460.21, "end": 2464.81, "text": "But I would argue that's a bad approach looking forward because the category is too important." }, { "start": 2464.85, "end": 2475.37, "text": "And so my encouragement of The United Kingdom, take both sides of the English Channel and the Atlantic... ...and land at a regime that uniquely British in its character and" }, { "start": 2475.529, "end": 2476.11, "text": "qualities.\"." }, { "start": 2477.25, "end": 2478.47, "text": "They're on the cusp doing it!" }, { "start": 2478.75, "end": 2481.69, "text": "I'm very optimistic about Kier Starmer's government…." }, { "start": 2481.77, "end": 2493.19, "text": "…the Bank of England – many others are starting to understand how digital asset innovations can play to their strengths United Kingdom and so I think it's a second mover advantage that the UK can accrue." }, { "start": 2493.69, "end": 2494.25, "text": "Okay, great!" }, { "start": 2494.61, "end": 2500.95, "text": "And one question i think is kind of...I often say its on other side." }, { "start": 2504.73, "end": 2510.83, "text": "part and parcel with any kind of regulatory regime in AML or CFT is the topic of identity." }, { "start": 2510.91, "end": 2517.529, "text": "It's also near-and-dear to our heart, it was happening at European Digital Identity Wallet Program here and many other things I know." }, { "start": 2517.67, "end": 2527.05, "text": "Circle about twenty two time frame had a pretty strong push into the space with, I believe it was pronounced verite." }, { "start": 2527.17, "end": 2534.41, "text": "So correct me if that's wrong there but um... But i noticed we're not talking a lot about identity so just very widely." }, { "start": 2535.27, "end": 2540.09, "text": "how will circle thinking about identity is at a strategic part of the digital money layer?" }, { "start": 2540.31, "end": 2545.85, "text": "Is it something Circle wants to be kind of owning partnering in progressing?" }, { "start": 2546.43, "end": 2547.45, "text": "tell me a little bit about how you think." }, { "start": 2553.47, "end": 2555.61, "text": "or for the European audience, verité." }, { "start": 2556.39, "end": 2574.29, "text": "But but that crux of it is like so many things in our industry and In many ways maybe my internal combustion analogy as a good one That It took Something Like Tesla to show up To put A viable commercial grade Challenger To The Dominance Worldwide Of The Internal Combustion Engine." }, { "start": 2575.009, "end": 2583.77, "text": "And the prospect of mass adoption of electrified vehicles would not have been possible, even if technology was really old unless a commercially adopted product showed up." }, { "start": 2584.509, "end": 2596.13, "text": "I think digital identity is exactly that stubborn issue right now which it still matters and it matters enormously but cannot be standards war between rival firms." }, { "start": 2596.31, "end": 2609.509, "text": "It needs to seen as genuinely ubiquitous and broadly available technology policy and other changes that address, I think frankly one of the world's most stubborn insidious issues." }, { "start": 2610.09, "end": 2617.55, "text": "Which is forget the technology we're discussing in a minute... We have more than a billion people who don't have an nationally issued ID." }, { "start": 2617.81, "end": 2622.55, "text": "That would be acceptable form of know your customer screening to enter formal economy." }, { "start": 2623.09, "end": 2629.529, "text": "A billion And number probably grows every year because all crazy stuff happening on planet." }, { "start": 2630.15, "end": 2634.43, "text": "And on that score, we should be entirely technology agnostic and neutral." }, { "start": 2635.15, "end": 2664.59, "text": "And restless as financial operators and people until someone says here is a way of ensuring that every digital wallet in the world has blue check mark without sacrificing peoples' financial privacy nor digital identity theft or other risks forever because locking out a billion people from the formal economy is a bigger risk in my opinion than the risk of, you know potential single actors trying to dominate a system with illicit finance." }, { "start": 2664.65, "end": 2671.95, "text": "So somehow we have Obviously, Circle cares a lot about this work." }, { "start": 2672.45, "end": 2682.87, "text": "Verity is an open source technology standard whose technology has been used in the range of different identity and attestation and credentialing projects since Verity was announced." }, { "start": 2683.47, "end": 2686.25, "text": "but we realize that Circle alone can't move that market." }, { "start": 2686.43, "end": 2692.509, "text": "And then we were trying to continue catalyzing policy regulatory and Technology players to coalesce around standards." }, { "start": 2692.61, "end": 2703.07, "text": "It's a little bit like Blu-ray versus DVD tragically Financial firms policy makers and others to sort of set standards in accept them." }, { "start": 2703.69, "end": 2708.21, "text": "And circle will promote augment Employee, and support these standards as well." }, { "start": 2708.65, "end": 2712.47, "text": "we should all of course remember Circle doesn't face retail end users." }, { "start": 2713.29, "end": 2719.27, "text": "We're more like a visa and a mastercard which you are not the customer of Visa directly Jonathan or Jonas." }, { "start": 2719.47, "end": 2719.89, "text": "You're your?" }, { "start": 2720.27, "end": 2723.11, "text": "The customer of the bank Or the institution that issued you the card." }, { "start": 2723.65, "end": 2732.91, "text": "and In some ways, you know, we couldn't move the entire retail market sufficiently to make a dent in that multi-billion person digital identity gap I just spoke of." }, { "start": 2733.79, "end": 2744.05, "text": "It's as I said, it's all about standardization and what we see here in Europe that this standards these rails for identity are really being developed now with the European Digital Identity Wallet." }, { "start": 2744.09, "end": 2751.89, "text": "That actually leverages a lot of the standards coming from crypto land from self sovereign identity which is then also applied to other countries." }, { "start": 2751.99, "end": 2755.77, "text": "so yeah i like you know an example made by Tesla on the combustion engine." }, { "start": 2755.93, "end": 2758.67, "text": "maybe thats a blueprint for future identity." }, { "start": 2759.509, "end": 2763.15, "text": "but let us see time was running until just have few minutes left." }, { "start": 2765.15, "end": 2766.11, "text": "keep you busy, I'm sure." }, { "start": 2766.15, "end": 2768.47, "text": "You have other stuff to do as well." }, { "start": 2768.529, "end": 2776.43, "text": "but maybe has a last question what is your look on the market in terms of like general stablecoin growth let's say?" }, { "start": 2781.91, "end": 2784.89, "text": "Generally for stablecoins, but also in particular for euro-stablecoins." }, { "start": 2785.31, "end": 2788.21, "text": "Because we know you have your Euro stablecoin." }, { "start": 2788.25, "end": 2789.19, "text": "it's the biggest on a market." }, { "start": 2789.23, "end": 2794.71, "text": "that is of course true But in terms of the cake and fraction share are still pretty low right?" }, { "start": 2794.79, "end": 2798.07, "text": "So would be great to get your crystal ball perspective." }, { "start": 2798.41, "end": 2800.89, "text": "For last question how do you see the market here develop?" }, { "start": 2801.17, "end": 2802.11, "text": "Yeah I mean well one." }, { "start": 2802.77, "end": 2810.77, "text": "i'm always generally guarded about Using a crystal ball to make any prediction except to say, you know the future of money is already here." }, { "start": 2810.83, "end": 2814.17, "text": "It is just not evenly distributed would be my one prediction." }, { "start": 2814.75, "end": 2821.23, "text": "The second is You know take Take the institutional wave seriously right?" }, { "start": 2821.85, "end": 2830.509, "text": "you know, for those of us and the three of us have been at this for such a long time that we may be impatient with when we think of institutional adoption or ubiquity." }, { "start": 2830.97, "end": 2837.13, "text": "Or literal The Daily question I often get in Washington is where and When can i buy A cup Of coffee With a stablecoin?" }, { "start": 2837.83, "end": 2854.31, "text": "And I Think That's a little bit of wrong Question because if You still use the Terms of Art Stablecoin Blockchain Crypto Digital Identity Then You Still Know on the technology adoption is still steep and you're still climbing it." }, { "start": 2855.33, "end": 2862.69, "text": "When I think that technology, in a whole conversation has really reached maturity... ...is when we no longer use terms of art?" }, { "start": 2863.55, "end": 2882.77, "text": "And i think at this moment upon us now because you can envision world which geo-located smart digital money on secure cryptographically enabled digital wallet made available to And the payment can be rendered with near-field computing and contactless payments." }, { "start": 2883.39, "end": 2888.31, "text": "In the background, the settlement asset is a stablecoin... ...and in the back ground the settlement rails are" }, { "start": 2888.35, "end": 2889.09, "text": "blockchains.\"." }, { "start": 2889.61, "end": 2892.55, "text": "I think that's where the market is pushing for right?" }, { "start": 2893.29, "end": 2899.79, "text": "So it's less of question what happens next than sort of single new competitive factors." }, { "start": 2899.85, "end": 2910.47, "text": "grow the category because i think the categories now at very different level institutional integration and adoption And the big unlock, frankly has been legal and regulatory clarity." }, { "start": 2911.19, "end": 2913.13, "text": "So I'm very encouraged by that." }, { "start": 2913.19, "end": 2920.029, "text": "and i've always said if you still are talking about a technology then the technology is the protagonist in results or not." }, { "start": 2920.43, "end": 2927.63, "text": "so now we're going to start seeing more and more institutional adoption and fading into the background." }, { "start": 2928.17, "end": 2928.79, "text": "at which point?" }, { "start": 2931.31, "end": 2933.87, "text": "Well, and I" }, { "start": 2936.69, "end": 2939.39, "text": "think that's a perfect way to end this conversation." }, { "start": 2939.55, "end": 2942.85, "text": "Unfortunately because...I think we could do this for hours at least not good!" }, { "start": 2942.95, "end": 2946.17, "text": "I can go on for hours with you Dante really appreciate it." }, { "start": 2946.509, "end": 2948.35, "text": "thank you so much for the great conversation." }, { "start": 2948.43, "end": 2958.63, "text": "thanks for taking the time but most especially thanks for sharing your insights in wisdom from literally somebody has been on front lines of policy and digital money for many years." }, { "start": 2958.69, "end": 2959.39, "text": "So Thanks so much." }, { "start": 2959.73, "end": 2964.73, "text": "anyone listening will definitely include links to Circo and of course Dante work In The Show Notes" }, { "start": 2965.27, "end": 2965.69, "text": "Amazing." }, { "start": 2966.029, "end": 2968.11, "text": "Looking forward to reuniting the band next time, gentlemen!" }, { "start": 2968.21, "end": 2969.009, "text": "Thank you for having me on." }, { "start": 2969.57, "end": 2973.15, "text": "Yes and also thanks from my side, it was always insightful... ...and entertaining." }, { "start": 2973.41, "end": 2976.93, "text": "so I always enjoy that when speaking with you And of course our listeners." }, { "start": 2977.11, "end": 2979.49, "text": "thank you very much for joining us today." }, { "start": 2979.55, "end": 2982.61, "text": "If you like this podcast feel free to subscribe to the podcast." }, { "start": 2982.69, "end": 2985.61, "text": "Let your friends or family know about the podcasts." }, { "start": 2985.93, "end": 2988.31, "text": "Everybody who is interested in a future of money is welcome." }, { "start": 2988.61, "end": 2990.35, "text": "We'll see each other again soon." }, { "start": 2990.509, "end": 2991.81, "text": "This is Bitcoin Fiat Rock & Roll." }, { "start": 2992.19, "end": 2992.85, "text": "See You Next Time." }, { "start": 2993.95, "end": 3000.27, "text": "The views expressed are solely the personal opinions of the hosts and are provided for informational purposes only." }, { "start": 3001.15, "end": 3008.95, "text": "This podcast does not offer financial or investment advice, always conduct your own research and make well-informed decisions before investing." }, { "start": 3009.55, "end": 3015.85, "text": "please be aware that the host and guests may hold cryptocurrencies or digital assets discussed in this episode." } ]