[
  {
    "start": 16.219,
    "end": 19.27,
    "text": "Welcome to a new episode of Bitcoin, Fiat and Rock'n Roll."
  },
  {
    "start": 19.65,
    "end": 20.849,
    "text": "My name is Stefan Grasmann."
  },
  {
    "start": 21.49,
    "end": 29.59,
    "text": "Today we are on something everyone of us relies on And almost nobody thinks about until something goes wrong How you actually keep digital assets safe?"
  },
  {
    "start": 30.45,
    "end": 32.39,
    "text": "There could not be better week to talk about it."
  },
  {
    "start": 32.769,
    "end": 36.87,
    "text": "Our guest today is Kasper Lux head, a mayor and financial institutions at Ledger."
  },
  {
    "start": 37.129,
    "end": 42.23,
    "text": "What makes Casper the right guest is that he has seen wallets in custody from both sides of the fence."
  },
  {
    "start": 42.53,
    "end": 48.49,
    "text": "He spent years at cryptofinance The regulated custodian inside Deutsche Börse's world Running their wallet and staking infrastructure."
  },
  {
    "start": 48.61,
    "end": 54.65,
    "text": "They buttoned up institutional side And now his ledger –the company That puts self-custody into millions hands."
  },
  {
    "start": 54.97,
    "end": 58.93,
    "text": "We all know not your keys Not Your coins and this is squarely his territory."
  },
  {
    "start": 59.21,
    "end": 68.449,
    "text": "He recently did a keynote at the Nordic Blockchain Conference on exactly our topic, I talked literally called Digital Asset Custody How AI Is Rewriting The Economics of Security?"
  },
  {
    "start": 68.71,
    "end": 69.53,
    "text": "Welcome Kasper!"
  },
  {
    "start": 69.91,
    "end": 70.87,
    "text": "Thank you Stefan."
  },
  {
    "start": 70.97,
    "end": 72.31,
    "text": "it's nice to be here on the show."
  },
  {
    "start": 72.59,
    "end": 72.69,
    "text": "Did"
  },
  {
    "start": 72.789,
    "end": 73.89,
    "text": "i get my introduction right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 74.05,
    "end": 78.449,
    "text": "Anything to add from your side about what are doing professionally at ledger?"
  },
  {
    "start": 79.09,
    "end": 81.33,
    "text": "Yeah, I think there was a very good recap."
  },
  {
    "start": 81.889,
    "end": 96.77,
    "text": "I started out in the regulated financial industry and also heading up digital assets at UBS before I was a crypto finance and now i work for technology company based out of Paris that like you said produces non-custodial technologies."
  },
  {
    "start": 96.83,
    "end": 104.93,
    "text": "so remains the same, but customer base is very different and obviously it's not a licensed business anymore."
  },
  {
    "start": 104.99,
    "end": 110.949,
    "text": "But a pure tech solution where we let institutions or individuals actually be the custodian?"
  },
  {
    "start": 111.289,
    "end": 111.77,
    "text": "Absolutely!"
  },
  {
    "start": 112.509,
    "end": 118.97,
    "text": "Can you tell us a bit about your personal background, what brought into this whole topic of digital assets and wallet infrastructure?"
  },
  {
    "start": 119.21,
    "end": 119.49,
    "text": "Sure."
  },
  {
    "start": 119.65,
    "end": 131.75,
    "text": "It actually started I think back in twenty seventeen when i purchased my first little bit of crypto And it was not Bitcoin but I bought Ethereum for the first time."
  },
  {
    "start": 133.25,
    "end": 136.93,
    "text": "Immediately after I bought it, it was recommended to me by some friends."
  },
  {
    "start": 137.45,
    "end": 140.27,
    "text": "The price tanked by...I don't know, thirty or forty percent."
  },
  {
    "start": 140.77,
    "end": 148.73,
    "text": "so i took quite some loss but nevertheless I got very intrigued and hooked And I kept reading more about the topic."
  },
  {
    "start": 149.429,
    "end": 160.09,
    "text": "We even did a small mining operation with my friend back in days where we mined Ethereum using graphics cards."
  },
  {
    "start": 160.609,
    "end": 172.609,
    "text": "Those graphic cards would be worth a lot now with AI, but at the time they were mainly used for mining and mostly gamers were actually annoyed that miners are buying up all of their graphics cards."
  },
  {
    "start": 173.35,
    "end": 173.59,
    "text": "But yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 173.69,
    "end": 181.929,
    "text": "so from there I got even more interested in this topic And then i got an opportunity to join the innovation lab at UBS."
  },
  {
    "start": 184.209,
    "end": 188.91,
    "text": "new and upcoming topics around blockchain, such as like how do we create a digital bond?"
  },
  {
    "start": 189.049,
    "end": 190.85,
    "text": "How the week custody or digital bonds."
  },
  {
    "start": 191.769,
    "end": 192.829,
    "text": "What about payments?"
  },
  {
    "start": 193.049,
    "end": 194.17,
    "text": "what about CVDCs?"
  },
  {
    "start": 194.329,
    "end": 207.13,
    "text": "all of those topics I started to look at for the bank And from there that's actually how my professional career in the blockchain space started And then I did a lot of things around tokenization for UBS."
  },
  {
    "start": 207.47,
    "end": 215.89,
    "text": "Then eventually, I moved into the Swiss startup which is crypto finance where i continued and went a little bit deeper in to the crypto space."
  },
  {
    "start": 215.929,
    "end": 216.329,
    "text": "so to say"
  },
  {
    "start": 217.03,
    "end": 226.31,
    "text": "Seems like you got from an application layer gradually lowered down the stack Into it to custody now into hardware wallets."
  },
  {
    "start": 226.75,
    "end": 227.269,
    "text": "Is that right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 227.51,
    "end": 229.269,
    "text": "What made you go that route?"
  },
  {
    "start": 229.45,
    "end": 232.95,
    "text": "many people go maybe the other way around going Closer to the surface."
  },
  {
    "start": 233.01,
    "end": 236.13,
    "text": "over time, you seem to go deeper down the rabbit hole."
  },
  {
    "start": 237.07,
    "end": 251.209,
    "text": "Yeah actually I find kind of working with uh... The chains with networks itself very interesting because You need have a good understanding Of how they function How assets move on those networks and secure them."
  },
  {
    "start": 251.67,
    "end": 256.81,
    "text": "And so your are working closely With blockchains themselves the new thing."
  },
  {
    "start": 257.11,
    "end": 263.07,
    "text": "And I was very interested and to learn more about that, then this kind of why move my career more into that direction?"
  },
  {
    "start": 263.37,
    "end": 268.99,
    "text": "To be a very close to the metal in the decentralized networks which is what it's all about."
  },
  {
    "start": 269.67,
    "end": 278.13,
    "text": "changing the underlying settlement layer or database on the pinning our transactions and keeps records for assets."
  },
  {
    "start": 278.45,
    "end": 279.73,
    "text": "That has been the novelty."
  },
  {
    "start": 280.45,
    "end": 280.87,
    "text": "so i wanted"
  },
  {
    "start": 285.45,
    "end": 286.21,
    "text": "You moved to ledger."
  },
  {
    "start": 286.63,
    "end": 287.29,
    "text": "Very good, very"
  },
  {
    "start": 287.37,
    "end": 287.55,
    "text": "cool!"
  },
  {
    "start": 288.07,
    "end": 294.81,
    "text": "But before we dive too deep into these topics let's set the scene about what custody solutions look like in twenty-twenty six."
  },
  {
    "start": 294.99,
    "end": 300.65,
    "text": "can you give us a little bit of an overview how you look at the field and where it came from over the last five years?"
  },
  {
    "start": 301.17,
    "end": 302.57,
    "text": "Yeah so it has changed a lot."
  },
  {
    "start": 302.83,
    "end": 310.89,
    "text": "I think there are so many wallet solutions out there nowadays and it becomes sometimes very difficult to distinguish all of them."
  },
  {
    "start": 312.11,
    "end": 317.25,
    "text": "for Ledger It All started with hardware wallet, which got created back in twenty fourteen."
  },
  {
    "start": 318.09,
    "end": 330.59,
    "text": "And the core idea was to have a very secure enclave to kind of store the seed phrase and sign transactions with something that is detached from your computer and stored fully offline."
  },
  {
    "start": 330.69,
    "end": 336.49,
    "text": "so whenever you're not using keys they cannot be stolen or a hacker can't get them."
  },
  {
    "start": 337.07,
    "end": 339.85,
    "text": "This what we call commonly like cold wallets."
  },
  {
    "start": 340.45,
    "end": 349.25,
    "text": "So their non-custodial means You generate the key material or the seed yourself and you have to back up that seat yourselves."
  },
  {
    "start": 349.29,
    "end": 355.95,
    "text": "So, your kind of like your own custodian... ...you're not reliant on a bank.. ..or you are not relient on an exchange."
  },
  {
    "start": 356.53,
    "end": 358.65,
    "text": "You are in control over your own destiny."
  },
  {
    "start": 358.81,
    "end": 362.55,
    "text": "You generate your keys , you backup your keys And use signed transactions yourself."
  },
  {
    "start": 363.17,
    "end": 364.35,
    "text": "This is kinda novelty."
  },
  {
    "start": 364.63,
    "end": 366.03,
    "text": "Bitcoin brought into this world."
  },
  {
    "start": 366.93,
    "end": 371.33,
    "text": "It's just the only digital form value that can custody itself."
  },
  {
    "start": 372.35,
    "end": 373.27,
    "text": "So that's one spectrum."
  },
  {
    "start": 373.31,
    "end": 388.81,
    "text": "and within those kind of consumer wallets you have hardware wallets, but also software wallets which are wallets that live on your computer where the private key is typically in some encrypted way stored onto a computer."
  },
  {
    "start": 389.65,
    "end": 394.51,
    "text": "They're generally considered less safe because their attack surface is bigger."
  },
  {
    "start": 395.49,
    "end": 409.09,
    "text": "And then on the other spectrum, you have custodial solutions which is essentially where you hand over your keys to a custodian that protects those keys on your behalf and it's going to sign transactions on your be half typically with your instruction."
  },
  {
    "start": 410.33,
    "end": 421.01,
    "text": "Then you don't have to worry about how the keys are generated backed up stored etc.. Nowadays for most of the custodials setups You do need a license in its regulated activity."
  },
  {
    "start": 421.77,
    "end": 429.87,
    "text": "if he would try to compare these retail use cases, a singular person owning their crypto and this more institutional case."
  },
  {
    "start": 430.03,
    "end": 432.97,
    "text": "So what is the key difference between them?"
  },
  {
    "start": 433.07,
    "end": 439.31,
    "text": "And what changes the picture dramatically when you talk to regulated financial institutions about custody?"
  },
  {
    "start": 440.01,
    "end": 442.31,
    "text": "Well so it's quite big difference."
  },
  {
    "start": 442.77,
    "end": 446.91,
    "text": "I mean some clients are not allowed custody themselves."
  },
  {
    "start": 446.99,
    "end": 453.89,
    "text": "if you think about like a regulated asset manager they typically in the traditional world appointed custodian that has to keep the assets."
  },
  {
    "start": 454.85,
    "end": 472.49,
    "text": "And then, If you look at banks offering custody for instance too an asset manager there being asked to store large amounts of digital assets and Digital assets are bearer assets, that means whoever controls the key controls the asset similar to how we used to have paper certificates as shares."
  },
  {
    "start": 472.57,
    "end": 474.89,
    "text": "Whoever has a paper certificate owns this share."
  },
  {
    "start": 474.97,
    "end": 477.09,
    "text": "so it's similar principle in digital assets."
  },
  {
    "start": 477.17,
    "end": 481.73,
    "text": "So risk is very high if your keys are potentially compromised."
  },
  {
    "start": 481.81,
    "end": 483.89,
    "text": "you might lose one hundred percent of your assets."
  },
  {
    "start": 483.97,
    "end": 491.49,
    "text": "and thats definitely the case if you're storing Bitcoin, for example because you might not be able to recover any of the Bitcoin."
  },
  {
    "start": 492.07,
    "end": 512.87,
    "text": "If it's lost... So if your a bank and very worried about that risk And you need solutions which are very secure This is also one reason why a lot banks apart from regulatory reasons rolling out crypto custody, like in a bigger way because it's very big risk to the bank if you have a potential hundred percent downside."
  },
  {
    "start": 513.409,
    "end": 514.45,
    "text": "If the assets get lost?"
  },
  {
    "start": 514.77,
    "end": 515.169,
    "text": "Absolutely!"
  },
  {
    "start": 515.85,
    "end": 525.29,
    "text": "We'll dive into that topic retail versus institutional I think later on when we talk about ledger products and which use cases you support actually."
  },
  {
    "start": 526.81,
    "end": 532.61,
    "text": "But there's a timely event that is very much related to the self-custodial aspects we just discussed."
  },
  {
    "start": 532.67,
    "end": 541.29,
    "text": "So until maybe two weeks ago everybody said, okay if you have a ledger in your own safe at home this quite the same thing because you are offline."
  },
  {
    "start": 541.77,
    "end": 545.189,
    "text": "and then we had this cold card incident where nobody did anything wrong."
  },
  {
    "start": 545.79,
    "end": 546.829,
    "text": "But bad things happen."
  },
  {
    "start": 546.969,
    "end": 554.81,
    "text": "Maybe you can guide us through what actually happened to one of your competitors there, and maybe what went though your own head?"
  },
  {
    "start": 554.89,
    "end": 557.79,
    "text": "And the heads of different colleagues in your company."
  },
  {
    "start": 558.43,
    "end": 561.41,
    "text": "how safe are you actually me to prevent such an incident?"
  },
  {
    "start": 562.23,
    "end": 563.43,
    "text": "but give us a story please."
  },
  {
    "start": 563.469,
    "end": 565.189,
    "text": "You're much closer than I am"
  },
  {
    "start": 565.67,
    "end": 566.13,
    "text": "Sure sir."
  },
  {
    "start": 566.43,
    "end": 571.53,
    "text": "It was pretty sad day for crypto and self-custody."
  },
  {
    "start": 572.63,
    "end": 578.25,
    "text": "However, it was an isolated incident to RingFence to one provider."
  },
  {
    "start": 578.329,
    "end": 584.709,
    "text": "So it wasn't self custody itself which is the issue or the blockchains of users using this solution."
  },
  {
    "start": 584.79,
    "end": 604.189,
    "text": "It's essentially a firmware on the solution from the provider called ColdCards that had a fatal mistake in how the seed phrase generated and so whenever you set up A crypto wallet for the first time, The device that you use has to generate a number That nobody can guess."
  },
  {
    "start": 604.37,
    "end": 615.11,
    "text": "And so it needs very good randomness in order To create that number because that Number will be your seed phrase and all Your addresses and all of your secrets Will be derived from that seed phrase."
  },
  {
    "start": 615.77,
    "end": 616.949,
    "text": "In the cold card incident."
  },
  {
    "start": 617.67,
    "end": 621.849,
    "text": "So the device was supposed to roll a real dice For your seed."
  },
  {
    "start": 622.01,
    "end": 633.65,
    "text": "instead It used predictable formula And once somebody figures out that formula, it's very easy to derive the numbers generated by this."
  },
  {
    "start": 634.15,
    "end": 635.31,
    "text": "This is exactly what happened."
  },
  {
    "start": 635.39,
    "end": 650.31,
    "text": "so hackers were able level of randomness something around thirty to forty bits where it should have been Around a hundred twenty eight bits Which allowed hackers to kind of guess the seed phrases off?"
  },
  {
    "start": 650.37,
    "end": 654.93,
    "text": "The cold card users and then very quickly Kind of wipe all the wallets."
  },
  {
    "start": 655.55,
    "end": 662.51,
    "text": "so was not an issue with the user or With the pin code that was protecting the device are with the device Or the security of the device itself."
  },
  {
    "start": 662.589,
    "end": 666.49,
    "text": "It was An issue with how the seed phrase got generated on the device."
  },
  {
    "start": 666.67,
    "end": 666.77,
    "text": "for"
  },
  {
    "start": 666.829,
    "end": 681.61,
    "text": "me as an outstanding person I I would guess that a normal security audit should have found such a fatal flaw regarding the randomizer in, the seed phrase."
  },
  {
    "start": 683.11,
    "end": 683.849,
    "text": "Can you explain that?"
  },
  {
    "start": 683.93,
    "end": 695.73,
    "text": "or how can it be, everybody is talking about AI as getting better at finding such vulnerabilities but this one sounds actually quite obvious even for someone standing outside?"
  },
  {
    "start": 696.329,
    "end": 699.01,
    "text": "How do we look on that without blaming the competitor?"
  },
  {
    "start": 699.15,
    "end": 700.13,
    "text": "I don't want to do that!"
  },
  {
    "start": 702.25,
    "end": 702.99,
    "text": "It's a bit strange."
  },
  {
    "start": 707.03,
    "end": 710.51,
    "text": "One of the selling propositions was that all, uh, the firmware was open source."
  },
  {
    "start": 710.93,
    "end": 718.689,
    "text": "So actually the code was available on the internet and apparently it wasn't really there since the vulnerability was already there since twenty-twenty one."
  },
  {
    "start": 719.25,
    "end": 724.67,
    "text": "so they existed for quite a long time until somebody discovered it and started to exploit it."
  },
  {
    "start": 725.49,
    "end": 730.05,
    "text": "I also read that apparently some audits were done And It Was Not Founds!"
  },
  {
    "start": 730.65,
    "end": 735.81,
    "text": "And i Also Read That Even One Of The Latest Audits Was AI Assisted."
  },
  {
    "start": 736.25,
    "end": 742.189,
    "text": "So it sounds like AI was used to find the vulnerabilities and still didn't find them."
  },
  {
    "start": 742.39,
    "end": 751.37,
    "text": "That's obviously very unfortunate, but there is no guarantee that AI will solve all of these issues which are something we've learned now."
  },
  {
    "start": 752.75,
    "end": 754.37,
    "text": "What is true?"
  },
  {
    "start": 754.53,
    "end": 768.13,
    "text": "Is that AI can help you finding vulnerabilities much easier And this also makes it easier for attackers holes into software that we rely on to keep us secure."
  },
  {
    "start": 768.37,
    "end": 770.23,
    "text": "Actually, that's a good bridge too."
  },
  {
    "start": 770.37,
    "end": 771.49,
    "text": "how ledger operates?"
  },
  {
    "start": 771.73,
    "end": 774.77,
    "text": "because my obvious question is what's different than ledger?"
  },
  {
    "start": 775.349,
    "end": 778.13,
    "text": "What do you do to prevent such problem?"
  },
  {
    "start": 778.73,
    "end": 788.37,
    "text": "You're CTO Charles Guillemay He's all about AI and saying exactly that, now with AI in the hands of everybody we need to be more careful."
  },
  {
    "start": 789.01,
    "end": 794.75,
    "text": "At the same time you at Ledger have a possibility use AI for testing your own systems I guess?"
  },
  {
    "start": 794.87,
    "end": 806.589,
    "text": "And do this project called Dengen or this environment where you use employees also agents to attack on stuff please give us trip into your world."
  },
  {
    "start": 806.63,
    "end": 809.67,
    "text": "So what's ledger doing to prevent such incidents?"
  },
  {
    "start": 810.29,
    "end": 817.329,
    "text": "Definitely, so on cold cards the secure chip was actually guarding the seed after it was generated."
  },
  {
    "start": 818.01,
    "end": 821.99,
    "text": "On a ledger the seed is generated directly in to the secured chip."
  },
  {
    "start": 823.329,
    "end": 832.75,
    "text": "Ledger parts of the firmer are also closed source But we do have several firms auditing the firmware on a regular basis."
  },
  {
    "start": 833.25,
    "end": 837.709,
    "text": "And like you mentioned, our internal attack lab which is called The Donjon."
  },
  {
    "start": 838.29,
    "end": 852.29,
    "text": "So it's this team of security experts that tries to break not only our own products but also products of competitors or competitor wallets and they've broken quite a lot of wallets already in industry."
  },
  {
    "start": 854.99,
    "end": 862.969,
    "text": "Findings to the teams before they publish them online so that have a chance To fix these vulnerabilities Before it becomes public."
  },
  {
    "start": 863.569,
    "end": 873.349,
    "text": "and this is With two objectives in mind one, to keep our own product safe but also to Keep industry save And learn from vulnerabilities."
  },
  {
    "start": 873.53,
    "end": 878.89,
    "text": "we find This something not many companies do or can afford to do."
  },
  {
    "start": 879.39,
    "end": 885.29,
    "text": "So ledger is by far the largest hardware wallet producer in the world, and we have quite a big scale."
  },
  {
    "start": 885.41,
    "end": 893.969,
    "text": "so we secure about twenty percent of all Bitcoin thirty-percent of all stablecoins um...and were represented over one hundred sixty countries."
  },
  {
    "start": 894.089,
    "end": 907.469,
    "text": "We've shipped over eight million signers..so at a certain scale you can afford invest uh...a lot into security especially if this what's What The Company Is All About is keeping the company alive."
  },
  {
    "start": 907.53,
    "end": 918.31,
    "text": "So this very important for Ledger to put a strong emphasis on that, and throughout entire process we also use AI to pentest our products into find vulnerabilities."
  },
  {
    "start": 919.069,
    "end": 924.589,
    "text": "obviously thats still something which in its early stages but increasingly more so were applying more."
  },
  {
    "start": 924.63,
    "end": 924.709,
    "text": "and"
  },
  {
    "start": 927.91,
    "end": 929.949,
    "text": "How strong is this AI impact?"
  },
  {
    "start": 930.13,
    "end": 936.449,
    "text": "Can you give us a number here or an idea what that means to your teams having AI on your side."
  },
  {
    "start": 936.829,
    "end": 943.17,
    "text": "Yeah, it's actually really great because these agents they don't take holidays They work during the night."
  },
  {
    "start": 943.27,
    "end": 949.13,
    "text": "You can have as many of them as you like think through many hoops."
  },
  {
    "start": 950.189,
    "end": 959.709,
    "text": "You read many times that multiple exploits were changed together in order to get an outcome, which is something humans might struggle with to figure it out."
  },
  {
    "start": 959.79,
    "end": 969.39,
    "text": "but the AI agent can just keep going and find multiple exploites and bring all of these exploits together so they achieve its goal."
  },
  {
    "start": 970.37,
    "end": 974.43,
    "text": "So this is very useful for finding vulnerabilities."
  },
  {
    "start": 975.209,
    "end": 982.65,
    "text": "If you think about today's world, actually most of the code is written by humans and a lot of that code has a lot vulnerabilities."
  },
  {
    "start": 983.29,
    "end": 987.23,
    "text": "And I think in short term AI will find a lot these vulnerabilities."
  },
  {
    "start": 987.55,
    "end": 1009.87,
    "text": "we'll unfortunately see a lot hacks but my hope on longer-term when more codes are written by AI bigger, but unfortunately I do think we have this bridge that we need to cross where a lot of the existing code is written by humans and AI will try to find exploits into that code."
  },
  {
    "start": 1009.93,
    "end": 1014.37,
    "text": "And obviously hackers have very big incentive uh...to find these exploits."
  },
  {
    "start": 1014.77,
    "end": 1015.89,
    "text": "Absolutely absolutely."
  },
  {
    "start": 1016.79,
    "end": 1019.23,
    "text": "let's see what how long these dark years might be."
  },
  {
    "start": 1019.41,
    "end": 1024.87,
    "text": "way i agents are more successful than The humans who wrote that code."
  },
  {
    "start": 1025.49,
    "end": 1035.63,
    "text": "yeah But before we go too deep, let's dive up a little bit because I think most of our listeners might know that mainly from the hardware wallets that many retail users are using."
  },
  {
    "start": 1035.67,
    "end": 1036.81,
    "text": "That is how you became big."
  },
  {
    "start": 1037.39,
    "end": 1046.369,
    "text": "but there also an enterprise business which set-up over recent years can give us some overview about different product lines and what they are?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1046.869,
    "end": 1049.75,
    "text": "Which market segments they're aiming at?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1051.43,
    "end": 1054.909,
    "text": "So Ledger operates three main business lines."
  },
  {
    "start": 1055.87,
    "end": 1065.85,
    "text": "One is the hardware business, which manufactures the famous Ledger signers that you all know and we've shipped over eight million of these devices so far."
  },
  {
    "start": 1066.47,
    "end": 1074.909,
    "text": "then We have consumer services Which used to be ledger live It's now called Ledger Wallet And there You Have All The Services That You Can Access As A Consumer."
  },
  {
    "start": 1075.11,
    "end": 1084.07,
    "text": "Think About Swap Staking Yields through DeFi, but also like a credit card or recovery services."
  },
  {
    "start": 1084.17,
    "end": 1097.53,
    "text": "So these services allow you to kind of be your own bank and do lending earn yields And all kinds of things with it with your own ledger signer so managing your own keys and having access to all those services."
  },
  {
    "start": 1097.67,
    "end": 1105.77,
    "text": "And then the third business line is Ledger Enterprise, which is the institutional business that has been around since twenty nineteen."
  },
  {
    "start": 1105.99,
    "end": 1110.27,
    "text": "we have on boarded over a hundred institution institutions only institutional businesses."
  },
  {
    "start": 1110.83,
    "end": 1123.55,
    "text": "in there We serve some of their largest crypto exchanges custodians asset managers All kinds of institutions who have the needs to kind of manage keys In-house and half like a secure wallet solution for them."
  },
  {
    "start": 1123.77,
    "end": 1123.83,
    "text": "So"
  },
  {
    "start": 1124.11,
    "end": 1130.95,
    "text": "so they usually chain Of responsibilities would then be that you rather serve a custodian than a bank directly."
  },
  {
    "start": 1131.29,
    "end": 1138.129,
    "text": "So, so bangwood would obviously rather work together with the custodians who themselves could be a client of ledger?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1138.25,
    "end": 1139.79,
    "text": "Is that the right assumption or"
  },
  {
    "start": 1139.95,
    "end": 1140.75,
    "text": "is it differently?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1141.27,
    "end": 1142.37,
    "text": "It's changing a little bit."
  },
  {
    "start": 1143.49,
    "end": 1145.87,
    "text": "Yes banks typically look at two models."
  },
  {
    "start": 1146.149,
    "end": 1156.53,
    "text": "one shall we use like a subcustodian which was the core business of crypto finance, for instance is to be a sub custodian for banks and kind of say we are the experts."
  },
  {
    "start": 1157.07,
    "end": 1166.17,
    "text": "We will manage all the blockchain complexity for you and keep the assets safe on your behalf from an on behalf of your clients."
  },
  {
    "start": 1166.77,
    "end": 1171.31,
    "text": "but You also have more and more banks who are building that capability themselves in house."
  },
  {
    "start": 1172.149,
    "end": 1174.81,
    "text": "It doesn't mean they build all the technology themselves."
  },
  {
    "start": 1174.85,
    "end": 1186.19,
    "text": "They typically rely on a technology provider, such as Ledger to kind of built out their own custody infrastructure within the bank and then also offer custody services directly."
  },
  {
    "start": 1190.29,
    "end": 1197.59,
    "text": "If we dive into the different possibilities to secure private keys, then many different terms come up."
  },
  {
    "start": 1197.75,
    "end": 1208.61,
    "text": "So many people talk about multi-sig which is usually a realm where safe product that Gnosis brought alive some years ago."
  },
  {
    "start": 1209.27,
    "end": 1213.53,
    "text": "and there's MPC technology often referred too."
  },
  {
    "start": 1214.19,
    "end": 1217.43,
    "text": "then there are HSMs that play a certain role in larger banks."
  },
  {
    "start": 1217.889,
    "end": 1229.83,
    "text": "And it's something like ledger, if you bring some order into my chaos and I just deliberately produced here how do they relate to each other?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1229.97,
    "end": 1232.25,
    "text": "Who is your partner or competitors?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1233.35,
    "end": 1238.649,
    "text": "which role does ledger plays on those possibilities customers can choose from."
  },
  {
    "start": 1239.33,
    "end": 1247.31,
    "text": "Yeah, maybe if we take a quick step back and compare like the consumer wallet with institutional wallets I think it will make little bit more sense."
  },
  {
    "start": 1247.35,
    "end": 1250.389,
    "text": "So on the consumer side you have your signer."
  },
  {
    "start": 1251.09,
    "end": 1259.09,
    "text": "there is a seed phrase in this signer basically one approver which yourself You generate seeds now want to do transaction."
  },
  {
    "start": 1259.49,
    "end": 1267.51,
    "text": "look at screen review of transactions tap two buttons or touch screen The transaction is done."
  },
  {
    "start": 1268.01,
    "end": 1272.37,
    "text": "Now, that's great if you are the only one managing assets and they're your assets."
  },
  {
    "start": 1272.75,
    "end": 1280.649,
    "text": "but it's not so good when an institution or now you manage client assets or assets that belong to kind of a family office or asset manager."
  },
  {
    "start": 1281.09,
    "end": 1285.71,
    "text": "You don't want one person be able move all the assets with just one touch of button."
  },
  {
    "start": 1286.409,
    "end": 1287.03,
    "text": "So what do we need?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1287.45,
    "end": 1298.93,
    "text": "First thing first find some way store the seed phrase and you want to do that in a way so nobody can access the seed trace or steal it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1299.53,
    "end": 1300.409,
    "text": "That's the first thing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1300.53,
    "end": 1308.33,
    "text": "And then, the second thing what you need to do is have some kind of corporate governance or some governance around how the seed phrase can be used."
  },
  {
    "start": 1308.389,
    "end": 1310.31,
    "text": "so who is allowed to sign transactions?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1310.909,
    "end": 1311.81,
    "text": "Is it one person?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1311.93,
    "end": 1313.67,
    "text": "Are there two people?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1314.73,
    "end": 1317.61,
    "text": "Do we need to involve a compliance officer or not for certain"
  },
  {
    "start": 1317.649,
    "end": 1318.23,
    "text": "transactions?\"."
  },
  {
    "start": 1318.409,
    "end": 1328.73,
    "text": "All that governance needs to sit somewhere as well and you want every transaction to go through that governance before it ultimately gets signed and broadcasted on chain."
  },
  {
    "start": 1329.95,
    "end": 1335.59,
    "text": "So that's why a lot of providers have built solutions around this to enable kind of institutions, too."
  },
  {
    "start": 1336.37,
    "end": 1339.49,
    "text": "To have that governance and secure key management."
  },
  {
    "start": 1340.03,
    "end": 1341.75,
    "text": "And then there are different approaches to that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1341.87,
    "end": 1348.49,
    "text": "so Multi-seq like you mentioned is one approach and we actually work together with SAFE."
  },
  {
    "start": 1348.77,
    "end": 1363.73,
    "text": "It's a great product so that you can actually manage that governance directly on chain through smart contracts and that is a very good way to do it, but has some restrictions so only works on on one chain or set of chains."
  },
  {
    "start": 1363.79,
    "end": 1372.37,
    "text": "It doesn't work across all networks, so if it works in a theorem that might not be working with Bitcoin you may need to have two different setups for those two different chains."
  },
  {
    "start": 1372.85,
    "end": 1388.19,
    "text": "So then there are other solutions which are like MPC and HSM solutions That allow us to have one setup One governance, one seed trace And work across the network that we want to operate on Which is what most custodians go far."
  },
  {
    "start": 1388.889,
    "end": 1397.25,
    "text": "And with an HSM that is kind of very proven technology, HSMs are secure boxes that generate the key material."
  },
  {
    "start": 1397.37,
    "end": 1405.09,
    "text": "Make sure that a key material is never exposed, never leaves to device and it's very good at keeping that key materials safe."
  },
  {
    "start": 1405.129,
    "end": 1412.05,
    "text": "so if you try to tamper with that box It will self-wipe and make sure nobody can ever get access through that key material."
  },
  {
    "start": 1412.53,
    "end": 1415.07,
    "text": "An HSM have been used for decades."
  },
  {
    "start": 1415.87,
    "end": 1423.99,
    "text": "every time ATM and you enter your PIN code to withdraw some money, some HSM somewhere will verify that the PIN Code is correct."
  },
  {
    "start": 1424.05,
    "end": 1425.99,
    "text": "And give you approval for withdrawal of"
  },
  {
    "start": 1426.07,
    "end": 1426.35,
    "text": "funds.\"."
  },
  {
    "start": 1426.909,
    "end": 1429.57,
    "text": "That's actually what we use at Lidger Enterprise as well!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1431.05,
    "end": 1441.23,
    "text": "I think this was really good."
  },
  {
    "start": 1442.85,
    "end": 1442.97,
    "text": "What"
  },
  {
    "start": 1459.53,
    "end": 1460.629,
    "text": "do you advise that friend?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1460.73,
    "end": 1466.49,
    "text": "Is it to buy like a hardware wallet or put funds with an exchange, or a custodian."
  },
  {
    "start": 1466.59,
    "end": 1468.49,
    "text": "Or what's the typical advice"
  },
  {
    "start": 1468.53,
    "end": 1468.71,
    "text": "there?\"."
  },
  {
    "start": 1468.99,
    "end": 1468.99,
    "text": "I"
  },
  {
    "start": 1469.25,
    "end": 1471.35,
    "text": "usually look hard at my friends first!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1474.11,
    "end": 1489.389,
    "text": "It really depends on how tech savvy they actually are and i think the picture is changing once through this incident we just talked about get a bit worried about, okay how secure is it actually?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1489.649,
    "end": 1494.37,
    "text": "And nobody of the users has that deep insight like you on the other side of the fence."
  },
  {
    "start": 1494.409,
    "end": 1496.79,
    "text": "That knows what's going into this whole thing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1497.45,
    "end": 1522.93,
    "text": "but I think also the advancements especially with passcodes and not getting at the seat myself often is interesting to use pass keys and my face ID, stuff like that for everyday transactions changes the game quite significantly I guess."
  },
  {
    "start": 1523.01,
    "end": 1529.71,
    "text": "So actually in the middle of consideration what's actually best set up?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1530.01,
    "end": 1531.149,
    "text": "And usually it's a mixture"
  },
  {
    "start": 1532.11,
    "end": 1539.23,
    "text": "but... The pendulum has gone back and forwards quite few times because we had all these exchange hacks."
  },
  {
    "start": 1540.25,
    "end": 1548.31,
    "text": "The general advice was get your crypto off the exchanges, make sure you custodiate yourself because you can't trust any of these exchanges."
  },
  {
    "start": 1549.73,
    "end": 1558.49,
    "text": "And now obviously all the assets are on hardware wallets and there's a hardware wallet hack... ...and everyone says please move your assets to a custodian."
  },
  {
    "start": 1559.81,
    "end": 1561.03,
    "text": "that is safer!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1562.47,
    "end": 1566.09,
    "text": "I think that the world will land up somewhere in the middle."
  },
  {
    "start": 1566.23,
    "end": 1582.629,
    "text": "I think both solutions have their use cases and their value, And i think a lot of people will end up in a hybrid setup where they manage their own wallet for certain funds... ...and then we'll use a custodian for other funds.. ..And it will mix-and match between the two depending on"
  },
  {
    "start": 1587.77,
    "end": 1590.73,
    "text": "the use case."
  },
  {
    "start": 1591.85,
    "end": 1595.81,
    "text": "Playing around and buying some meme coins, which is a very different use case."
  },
  {
    "start": 1595.85,
    "end": 1608.29,
    "text": "And I think people will use very different forms of security for that because once one You talk about different amounts That you invest in and different frequency your interact with this stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 1609.05,
    "end": 1616.29,
    "text": "So i think that depends very much on and also would depend on the friend who's asking me Would ask what's the use-case?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1616.83,
    "end": 1622.889,
    "text": "Do you want to save this till the end of your life or do you wanna play around get rich quick poor quick, let's put it like that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1624.17,
    "end": 1627.09,
    "text": "That I think the distinction would heavily make."
  },
  {
    "start": 1628.85,
    "end": 1639.05,
    "text": "but most important thing is they interact with stuff at all because i'm still also fascinating by what possible about this kind of self-organized finance."
  },
  {
    "start": 1639.389,
    "end": 1640.29,
    "text": "and to put"
  },
  {
    "start": 1641.17,
    "end": 1658.129,
    "text": "in there we really see a shift from institutional perspective of ledger only storing crypto and enabling maybe some speculation, but also more towards digital payments."
  },
  {
    "start": 1658.57,
    "end": 1671.27,
    "text": "And storing now also securities so equities bonds funds um that's a really big shift we are seeing over the last one to two years where you will see acceleration there."
  },
  {
    "start": 1671.99,
    "end": 1678.29,
    "text": "And if you think about, you know... You could envisage a world where most of your payments are done on blockchain rails."
  },
  {
    "start": 1678.49,
    "end": 1687.649,
    "text": "Either you pay with tokenized deposits or you pay stable coins but essentially have wallet that manage yourself for day-to-day purchases similar to us."
  },
  {
    "start": 1687.77,
    "end": 1694.43,
    "text": "how use credit card nowadays and won't even notice or note it runs on block chain rails?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1695.45,
    "end": 1700.67,
    "text": "I do thing thats very likely scenario play out over the next couple years."
  },
  {
    "start": 1701.59,
    "end": 1703.53,
    "text": "Actually, that was not my next question."
  },
  {
    "start": 1703.57,
    "end": 1704.389,
    "text": "But let's jump there!"
  },
  {
    "start": 1704.49,
    "end": 1717.03,
    "text": "So if you look into these banks... You mentioned the banks who put maybe some millions in building up their own custody solution which is very much focused for enabling clients to invest in Bitcoin or Ethereum."
  },
  {
    "start": 1717.37,
    "end": 1727.67,
    "text": "Maybe they even enabled staking scenarios and stuff like this but it may be two years ago when crypto had a good season."
  },
  {
    "start": 1728.57,
    "end": 1731.77,
    "text": "Now everything's about stablecoins and payments with Stripe."
  },
  {
    "start": 1731.81,
    "end": 1737.45,
    "text": "And all the others catching up, exchanging payment infrastructure if you will."
  },
  {
    "start": 1737.93,
    "end": 1744.55,
    "text": "So now CEO go to guys from custody team say hey guys we invested three million into custody solution."
  },
  {
    "start": 1745.05,
    "end": 1745.47,
    "text": "We are ready."
  },
  {
    "start": 1745.53,
    "end": 1746.01,
    "text": "I agree."
  },
  {
    "start": 1747.61,
    "end": 1760.17,
    "text": "For my perspective use cases for payments is so much different because one client might do transaction per day For payments scenarios, which touches the wallet infrastructure somehow to send out some euros."
  },
  {
    "start": 1760.27,
    "end": 1768.95,
    "text": "To pay something or at least that's a narrative whereas The solution was built to buy maybe Bitcoin once a quarter and store it away."
  },
  {
    "start": 1769.01,
    "end": 1770.51,
    "text": "I never touch it for the next ten years."
  },
  {
    "start": 1770.99,
    "end": 1772.95,
    "text": "so very different use cases."
  },
  {
    "start": 1773.53,
    "end": 1779.889,
    "text": "Store only used cases even if you want And now we're very interactive hot wallet like scenario."
  },
  {
    "start": 1780.81,
    "end": 1782.07,
    "text": "What do you make of that?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1783.03,
    "end": 1784.69,
    "text": "And how does ledger react to that?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1784.77,
    "end": 1791.27,
    "text": "So is this still a hardware wallet game, or it's just too tedious... ...to get your hardware wallet out and stick into the computer."
  },
  {
    "start": 1791.35,
    "end": 1794.33,
    "text": "Is it used at all for these scenarios...?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1794.45,
    "end": 1797.69,
    "text": "Or what are you reaction on onto this trend?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1798.55,
    "end": 1801.75,
    "text": "Yeah I think especially from institutional side."
  },
  {
    "start": 1801.81,
    "end": 1805.649,
    "text": "we've seen demand change quite a bit, like you said."
  },
  {
    "start": 1806.03,
    "end": 1814.69,
    "text": "And we're still kind of in that Mika tailwind where a lot of banks are working on rolling out crypto offerings and it's definitely one use case they want to solve with their custody platform."
  },
  {
    "start": 1815.27,
    "end": 1827.19,
    "text": "but then also tell me... We need to solve for payments so stablecoins and we also need to sell for tokenized securities and have what infrastructure layer can solve those three use cases."
  },
  {
    "start": 1830.21,
    "end": 1837.31,
    "text": "Indeed, the requirements can be quite different because if you think about payments then all of a sudden volumes go up quite a bit."
  },
  {
    "start": 1838.33,
    "end": 1848.67,
    "text": "And our solution needs to be able to sign a lot of transactions in very quick time frame, but also the blockchain itself need to process that many transactions per second."
  },
  {
    "start": 1848.75,
    "end": 1857.33,
    "text": "So you see a lot blockchains investing or they have been investing for long-time and increasing what are called TPS so transactions per seconds."
  },
  {
    "start": 1857.889,
    "end": 1859.75,
    "text": "we had do same on wallet side."
  },
  {
    "start": 1860.409,
    "end": 1862.649,
    "text": "Now, the next thing is also privacy."
  },
  {
    "start": 1863.129,
    "end": 1866.83,
    "text": "It's a big topic so all of Chains are investing in Privacy."
  },
  {
    "start": 1867.45,
    "end": 1884.03,
    "text": "it's A Big Topic for Ethereum its one Of The Leading kind of Sales Arguments For Canter Network You Want to Make Sure Once you Start Moving All Payments On Chain Or Once You Start Moving Security Transactions on Chain That Not Everyone can See Everything."
  },
  {
    "start": 1884.649,
    "end": 1888.95,
    "text": "So that's also on the wallet side, we have to upgrade and support new protocols."
  },
  {
    "start": 1889.11,
    "end": 1900.409,
    "text": "That can supports kind of privacy use cases And there are a lot of networks being created for payment or tokenization use cases."
  },
  {
    "start": 1900.51,
    "end": 1911.05,
    "text": "so as a wallet you continuously evolve with your clients and follow their product requirements As they shift more towards payments and tokenized securities."
  },
  {
    "start": 1912.69,
    "end": 1915.83,
    "text": "Maybe one question towards the privacy and payment aspect."
  },
  {
    "start": 1916.45,
    "end": 1928.67,
    "text": "One argument I hear regularly, there are blockchains like Tempo who optimized for that... ...that a payment usually is not enough if you buy something or have a receipt to see what you actually bought with that transaction."
  },
  {
    "start": 1929.35,
    "end": 1934.03,
    "text": "Is some meta information like this also a topic at ledger?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1934.149,
    "end": 1944.29,
    "text": "That it can augment the transaction data somehow with a payload where they say okay i am an user Some regulator can make sense out of that transaction."
  },
  {
    "start": 1944.83,
    "end": 1955.09,
    "text": "Yeah, I think there's definitely a topic and even more so on the security side because Most crypto assets, they're just tokens that sit in your wallets and they don't really do anything."
  },
  {
    "start": 1955.909,
    "end": 1960.49,
    "text": "You have one Bitcoin and it's what you have but if you are holding a bond for instance."
  },
  {
    "start": 1960.59,
    "end": 1966.71,
    "text": "all of the sudden there is coupon payments There is expiry dates...there's all kinds of reference data that comes along with it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1966.81,
    "end": 1972.87,
    "text": "so you need to upgrade Your wallet to be able support those tokens which are lot more complex."
  },
  {
    "start": 1973.25,
    "end": 1980.51,
    "text": "And ultimately..you need read alot more information from smart contracts than to deal with lots of smart contract functionality."
  },
  {
    "start": 1980.909,
    "end": 1987.25,
    "text": "So yes, that's definitely something that is changing quite a lot than it also influencing our roadmap quite a bit and"
  },
  {
    "start": 1987.81,
    "end": 1990.35,
    "text": "I think there are lots of trends at the same time."
  },
  {
    "start": 1990.409,
    "end": 1993.03,
    "text": "so you have privacy trends ,you've new chains ."
  },
  {
    "start": 1993.07,
    "end": 1997.93,
    "text": "You use cases with new asset classes on top."
  },
  {
    "start": 1998.69,
    "end": 2002.409,
    "text": "That sounds like very complicated strategy roadmap."
  },
  {
    "start": 2002.59,
    "end": 2016.47,
    "text": "So I don't want to get into too much details, you might not be allowed to talk about here but give us a rough idea how you prioritize all these possible features that you could put in your solutions?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2016.99,
    "end": 2023.389,
    "text": "Yeah so our core focus will always remain security and we'll keep investing in end-to-end hardware."
  },
  {
    "start": 2025.07,
    "end": 2029.43,
    "text": "As you say, all these use cases are coming on chain which means that the volumes are going up."
  },
  {
    "start": 2029.71,
    "end": 2031.33,
    "text": "So crypto is what?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2031.409,
    "end": 2031.93,
    "text": "two trillion?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2032.03,
    "end": 2033.43,
    "text": "Two and a half trillion market cap?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2034.409,
    "end": 2038.47,
    "text": "Securities is a lot bigger and payments is also really big."
  },
  {
    "start": 2038.53,
    "end": 2043.17,
    "text": "so if whole of that comes on-chain there's a lot more value than needs to be secured."
  },
  {
    "start": 2043.97,
    "end": 2046.889,
    "text": "We keep focusing on security and keeping investing in debt."
  },
  {
    "start": 2047.05,
    "end": 2048.33,
    "text": "That's priority number one too."
  },
  {
    "start": 2048.389,
    "end": 2056.87,
    "text": "make sure we have The most secure signing layer whether we're signing payments or whether we're assigning issuance of securities, all that."
  },
  {
    "start": 2056.99,
    "end": 2065.15,
    "text": "That's going to be our core focus and we believe with AI finding vulnerabilities a lot easier."
  },
  {
    "start": 2066.029,
    "end": 2074.889,
    "text": "this is an important point for security right before you build anything else on top especially large institutions."
  },
  {
    "start": 2075.61,
    "end": 2081.59,
    "text": "And then we are looking at how can we kind of enable the client use cases on different networks."
  },
  {
    "start": 2081.83,
    "end": 2087.17,
    "text": "So, and we start to look at which network's out there most important... Which use cases are the most important?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2087.409,
    "end": 2088.37,
    "text": "We prioritize that."
  },
  {
    "start": 2089.09,
    "end": 2100.33,
    "text": "At a moment it is mainly like I mentioned before making stable coin payments easier also being able to interpret these more complex tokens than our security token."
  },
  {
    "start": 2101.09,
    "end": 2102.85,
    "text": "Okay interesting!"
  },
  {
    "start": 2103.71,
    "end": 2111.29,
    "text": "Sounds also like you might have to look for partners who do the stuff some layers above in order not get overwhelmed"
  },
  {
    "start": 2111.33,
    "end": 2112.09,
    "text": "by all of"
  },
  {
    "start": 2112.47,
    "end": 2112.79,
    "text": "feature"
  },
  {
    "start": 2113.23,
    "end": 2113.91,
    "text": "requirements."
  },
  {
    "start": 2114.07,
    "end": 2114.47,
    "text": "Of course,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2115.71,
    "end": 2116.13,
    "text": "absolutely!"
  },
  {
    "start": 2116.73,
    "end": 2122.11,
    "text": "We keep coming back to AI agents and there's a new product that we launched called agent stack."
  },
  {
    "start": 2122.83,
    "end": 2125.99,
    "text": "Can you tell us a bit about what that's all about?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2126.43,
    "end": 2127.69,
    "text": "What's driving that development."
  },
  {
    "start": 2128.029,
    "end": 2136.11,
    "text": "Sure, so I'm sure you played around with agents yourself or at least with large language models such as EPT, CLAWD etc."
  },
  {
    "start": 2137.15,
    "end": 2138.509,
    "text": "and it is kind of our belief."
  },
  {
    "start": 2139.529,
    "end": 2152.19,
    "text": "most transactions in the future will be proposed by agents but also believe we should never give an agent keys and that you should keep the keys away from the agent."
  },
  {
    "start": 2152.75,
    "end": 2165.85,
    "text": "So step number one on the roadmap was to make all our solutions headless, so we released a device management kit or CLI an agent can use in order start proposing transactions."
  },
  {
    "start": 2166.27,
    "end": 2178.93,
    "text": "if go out of clout then say hey please pick up Ledger's DMK hook it up to my ledger wallet and send one USDC from Casper to Stefan, you will be able do that on its own."
  },
  {
    "start": 2180.17,
    "end": 2181.41,
    "text": "And I tried this myself."
  },
  {
    "start": 2181.49,
    "end": 2185.71,
    "text": "what happens is the agent can generate entire transaction... ...and then what happens?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2185.79,
    "end": 2191.23,
    "text": "It eventually gets pushed your ledger for you to review on screen an approve or not approve!"
  },
  {
    "start": 2192.41,
    "end": 2194.05,
    "text": "That's a very basic use case."
  },
  {
    "start": 2195.029,
    "end": 2228.029,
    "text": "we are extending with what we call Agent Intense which essentially able to work in the background and propose transactions, You did something yesterday, et cetera."
  },
  {
    "start": 2228.47,
    "end": 2233.37,
    "text": "And so you will go through all these transactions and review them on your ledger and approve them."
  },
  {
    "start": 2233.55,
    "end": 2243.029,
    "text": "So you want to make sure that even if your agent is compromised, that you are still in control of the secrets and all the approvals?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2243.99,
    "end": 2244.15,
    "text": "That's"
  },
  {
    "start": 2244.23,
    "end": 2258.09,
    "text": "very interesting because I'm deep into this intent-based systems where it's usually the other way around—that If an agent takes the intent and does something wrong, you have a proof that."
  },
  {
    "start": 2258.43,
    "end": 2259.93,
    "text": "Something went wrong on your not liable?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2260.35,
    "end": 2261.99,
    "text": "And you turn that around."
  },
  {
    "start": 2263.13,
    "end": 2263.63,
    "text": "it's too late."
  },
  {
    "start": 2263.67,
    "end": 2263.83,
    "text": "yeah"
  },
  {
    "start": 2266.27,
    "end": 2267.43,
    "text": "Yeah, then it's too late."
  },
  {
    "start": 2267.59,
    "end": 2273.31,
    "text": "But at least you have a neutral layer where we can prove what your intent was because I would take"
  },
  {
    "start": 2273.35,
    "end": 2275.17,
    "text": "the agent to court or do?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2275.97,
    "end": 2279.07,
    "text": "Well guys who brought them into life?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2279.15,
    "end": 2283.37,
    "text": "usually if they run on my own hardware than its problem."
  },
  {
    "start": 2283.47,
    "end": 2290.21,
    "text": "but If i buy from some large vendor and say okay try book trip to Ibiza not Mallorca."
  },
  {
    "start": 2291.35,
    "end": 2298.09,
    "text": "The big problems is that agents are probabilistic and you need a deterministic layer in order to anchor the agent."
  },
  {
    "start": 2298.77,
    "end": 2312.05,
    "text": "So that's something which is really important, The next thing we're going to do is introduce agent identities so that you can anchor the identity of an agent And then know your talking with right agents not some imposter."
  },
  {
    "start": 2313.17,
    "end": 2313.79,
    "text": "for instance."
  },
  {
    "start": 2314.35,
    "end": 2316.81,
    "text": "We would also kind go beyond crypto For this!"
  },
  {
    "start": 2317.49,
    "end": 2324.41,
    "text": "So the idea it will be able store any kind of secrets review it and approve."
  },
  {
    "start": 2325.37,
    "end": 2340.45,
    "text": "We will also move beyond kind of manual human approvers into a more policy-based approval framework so that you can also automate approvals to your agents if they fit within so that you don't have to manually approve everything."
  },
  {
    "start": 2341.05,
    "end": 2347.87,
    "text": "I think it's a natural development because would've been my next question, there is attention the whole magic of these agents."
  },
  {
    "start": 2348.83,
    "end": 2351.35,
    "text": "they move at machine speed and nobody watching."
  },
  {
    "start": 2351.93,
    "end": 2356.45,
    "text": "then we humans are needed for look what i find interesting."
  },
  {
    "start": 2356.97,
    "end": 2370.09,
    "text": "how do actually present right context as human know what you're actually approving them sometimes hours with AI and it's producing a lot of stuff for me."
  },
  {
    "start": 2370.31,
    "end": 2377.09,
    "text": "And at the certain point I have problems getting my head around what to think produce because i was not part of production system, you know?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2377.65,
    "end": 2387.009,
    "text": "It is very different if should create transaction on your own than an agent work that lightning speed for half-an-hour then present something in use area looks good."
  },
  {
    "start": 2387.43,
    "end": 2391.93,
    "text": "so how do you philosophically maybe Look at that problem."
  },
  {
    "start": 2392.25,
    "end": 2396.39,
    "text": "How do you ensure the human is still in control?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2396.47,
    "end": 2407.15,
    "text": "Because it's not one sentence, I think one sentence or... You need a lot of UI surface to come up with what actually happened before this transaction event i guess."
  },
  {
    "start": 2407.25,
    "end": 2409.23,
    "text": "so how do you thing about their problems ?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2409.69,
    "end": 2411.81,
    "text": "I always thinking like kind three layers."
  },
  {
    "start": 2412.509,
    "end": 2420.85,
    "text": "So first off all we have the intent and goal And thats something humans sets at least the very first goal, maybe there are derived goals from that."
  },
  {
    "start": 2420.91,
    "end": 2434.23,
    "text": "But as a human you say I want to do or i want to achieve X and then you have kind of work which is doing all steps in order to get through this goal And it's like piece-in-the-middle that agent does."
  },
  {
    "start": 2435.25,
    "end": 2455.71,
    "text": "Then we have last bit where the human comes into play again which is reviewing what he has done And I think that agents will definitely take up that bit in the middle, but humans will remain important for like the goal setting and review."
  },
  {
    "start": 2458.029,
    "end": 2461.17,
    "text": "Especially depending on which industry you're into or what your doing."
  },
  {
    "start": 2461.67,
    "end": 2468.65,
    "text": "You might actually want to have a proof That human has looked at work of agent."
  },
  {
    "start": 2470.37,
    "end": 2473.45,
    "text": "And what better way to prove that a human has looked at it?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2473.55,
    "end": 2477.21,
    "text": "by tapping a button on the physical hardware device because you can proof."
  },
  {
    "start": 2477.93,
    "end": 2485.87,
    "text": "A human had actually tapped about an on-the-device created signature that was generated from a seed in the device and as approved work of the agent."
  },
  {
    "start": 2485.93,
    "end": 2490.49,
    "text": "so thats kind off where we're moving too with ledger into future"
  },
  {
    "start": 2490.93,
    "end": 2496.47,
    "text": "And is stored on a blockchain that's credibly neutral and somewhat trusted by everybody for reasons."
  },
  {
    "start": 2496.83,
    "end": 2497.71,
    "text": "I think this combination"
  },
  {
    "start": 2497.75,
    "end": 2501.59,
    "text": "of... Yeah, it can be stored in the blockchain if its transaction but could also not be here."
  },
  {
    "start": 2501.63,
    "end": 2506.009,
    "text": "you know depending on use case It doesn't have to be limited to crypto transactions anymore."
  },
  {
    "start": 2506.79,
    "end": 2510.13,
    "text": "Our lives are becoming increasingly more digital."
  },
  {
    "start": 2510.31,
    "end": 2516.15,
    "text": "We'll need to store more secrets So there will be a need security for those secrets."
  },
  {
    "start": 2516.529,
    "end": 2521.75,
    "text": "You would need prove at some point that actually a human has requested this and has approved it."
  },
  {
    "start": 2522.13,
    "end": 2524.55,
    "text": "So, yeah..."
  },
  {
    "start": 2524.77,
    "end": 2525.19,
    "text": "Very cool!"
  },
  {
    "start": 2526.63,
    "end": 2541.17,
    "text": "I think we slowly need to come an end of the very interesting episode last series one give it straight three years from now in world where i can find almost any flaw what does good enough security look like?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2541.23,
    "end": 2546.99,
    "text": "And What are you doing for next year's to get into that direction?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2547.87,
    "end": 2550.009,
    "text": "Yeah, I think it's like i explained before."
  },
  {
    "start": 2550.15,
    "end": 2553.11,
    "text": "so It becomes much easier to find vulnerabilities."
  },
  {
    "start": 2553.29,
    "end": 2561.77,
    "text": "So the cost of finding a vulnerability is going down significantly and very rapidly And all these models are now available too To anyone."
  },
  {
    "start": 2562.97,
    "end": 2565.029,
    "text": "With good intentions or with bad intentions."
  },
  {
    "start": 2565.49,
    "end": 2585.87,
    "text": "Unfortunately most of the time that people with a bad intention have their higher incentive to look for the vulnerability first Like mentioned in the beginning initially end up in a world that is less secure, but ultimately the defense will catch-up as well and all of code will be written."
  },
  {
    "start": 2586.13,
    "end": 2593.75,
    "text": "That's much better than current code we have today which is mostly human generated And I think our defence will increase aswell."
  },
  {
    "start": 2593.93,
    "end": 2601.69,
    "text": "We'll end up at new equilibrium where it becomes harder to find vulnerability because the defences are also a lot better."
  },
  {
    "start": 2602.99,
    "end": 2613.39,
    "text": "Both will be supported by AI And that is essentially what we're doing within the company as well, trying to use AI as much possible to find vulnerabilities."
  },
  {
    "start": 2613.95,
    "end": 2627.69,
    "text": "To review code and to kind of ventest everything with AI so that we can upgrade our defense using kind of the latest technology just like we did it before but now its a different technology layer."
  },
  {
    "start": 2629.57,
    "end": 2629.81,
    "text": "I really"
  },
  {
    "start": 2629.87,
    "end": 2635.45,
    "text": "liked the idea to keep humans in loop inside ledger and Inside the processes that you support."
  },
  {
    "start": 2635.49,
    "end": 2642.87,
    "text": "I think that's quite a good approach And yeah, it keeps us a bit down to earth in all this AI craziness out there."
  },
  {
    "start": 2643.59,
    "end": 2645.17,
    "text": "Very cool is any question?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2645.41,
    "end": 2647.47,
    "text": "I should have asked you that either didn't?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2647.91,
    "end": 2648.19,
    "text": "Kasper?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2649.05,
    "end": 2650.61,
    "text": "Oh I don't think so."
  },
  {
    "start": 2650.71,
    "end": 2653.73,
    "text": "You've asked many questions maybe?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2653.89,
    "end": 2662.23,
    "text": "um i would ask your question after This entire conversation Do you still feel comfortable doing self custody?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2662.97,
    "end": 2677.69,
    "text": "Or are you rather leading towards not touching any keys yourself anymore, and are we potentially giving up on the ethos that was proposed by Bitcoin where everyone can be in control of their own destiny."
  },
  {
    "start": 2678.67,
    "end": 2682.15,
    "text": "And there is no one who can grab your keys or your assets."
  },
  {
    "start": 2682.63,
    "end": 2685.75,
    "text": "Are we giving upon that in your opinion... No"
  },
  {
    "start": 2686.17,
    "end": 2687.21,
    "text": "I wouldn't give it."
  },
  {
    "start": 2687.71,
    "end": 2694.47,
    "text": "I think this is a very compelling idea and i really like it, that im in control of most things."
  },
  {
    "start": 2695.17,
    "end": 2698.55,
    "text": "But what will be an important point?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2698.65,
    "end": 2704.93,
    "text": "are these insurance kind-of thing That if didn't do bad mistake then i want to insured."
  },
  {
    "start": 2704.97,
    "end": 2705.19,
    "text": "you know?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2705.33,
    "end": 2709.99,
    "text": "If i do silly things the money gone well need to live with."
  },
  {
    "start": 2710.85,
    "end": 2719.07,
    "text": "But if something bad happens where I have absolutely no reason to be guilty of, that's a difficult one."
  },
  {
    "start": 2719.67,
    "end": 2724.17,
    "text": "And cases like this will hurt the industry."
  },
  {
    "start": 2725.21,
    "end": 2731.21,
    "text": "when it was preached for many years and then you didn't do anything wrong That's hard to explain."
  },
  {
    "start": 2731.27,
    "end": 2733.31,
    "text": "There is actually a good argument for banks then again!"
  },
  {
    "start": 2735.89,
    "end": 2748.29,
    "text": "We take care of this, so I think as we discussed in the middle of our podcast there will be hybrid solutions at least from playing around or crazy stuff."
  },
  {
    "start": 2748.57,
    "end": 2757.61,
    "text": "you want it full control...I don't want anybody to hold me back if i wanted but at the same time your life earnings are to be stored away."
  },
  {
    "start": 2757.75,
    "end": 2761.17,
    "text": "maybe Maybe the self-custody isn't the only way to do that."
  },
  {
    "start": 2761.67,
    "end": 2771.63,
    "text": "You need to be very considerate about how to do it actually, so my lesson learned over last weeks and this podcast is okay for you?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2772.029,
    "end": 2773.029,
    "text": "It makes a lot of sense."
  },
  {
    "start": 2773.07,
    "end": 2773.23,
    "text": "yes!"
  },
  {
    "start": 2774.25,
    "end": 2775.89,
    "text": "Absolutely So."
  },
  {
    "start": 2776.43,
    "end": 2777.47,
    "text": "time to close episode."
  },
  {
    "start": 2777.509,
    "end": 2785.85,
    "text": "thankyou Casper for joining our show For going deep on hard topic keeping it human and coming on live freshly after cold card story."
  },
  {
    "start": 2786.97,
    "end": 2790.57,
    "text": "Thank you, listeners for listening to Bitcoin Theater Rock and Roll another time."
  },
  {
    "start": 2790.83,
    "end": 2795.17,
    "text": "And from making it to the end of this episode I hope we win a bit more fans."
  },
  {
    "start": 2795.509,
    "end": 2800.43,
    "text": "please go out share this episode with your friends and see you next time bye-bye."
  },
  {
    "start": 2803.45,
    "end": 2809.49,
    "text": "The views expressed are solely the personal opinions of the hosts in our provided for informational purposes"
  },
  {
    "start": 2809.61,
    "end": 2809.77,
    "text": "only."
  },
  {
    "start": 2810.65,
    "end": 2813.99,
    "text": "This podcast does not offer financial or investment advice."
  },
  {
    "start": 2814.61,
    "end": 2816.09,
    "text": "Always conduct your own research"
  },
  {
    "start": 2816.25,
    "end": 2817.61,
    "text": "and make well-informed decisions"
  },
  {
    "start": 2817.71,
    "end": 2818.45,
    "text": "before investing."
  },
  {
    "start": 2819.07,
    "end": 2819.97,
    "text": "Please be aware that"
  },
  {
    "start": 2820.009,
    "end": 2820.95,
    "text": "the hosts and guests"
  },
  {
    "start": 2821.029,
    "end": 2822.47,
    "text": "may hold cryptocurrencies"
  },
  {
    "start": 2822.85,
    "end": 2823.71,
    "text": "or digital assets"
  },
  {
    "start": 2823.79,
    "end": 2825.35,
    "text": "discussed in this episode."
  }
]