[
  {
    "start": 0.0,
    "end": 2.3,
    "text": "The court didn't just say that Israel has to leave, it"
  },
  {
    "start": 2.44,
    "end": 3.52,
    "text": "also was asked"
  },
  {
    "start": 3.6,
    "end": 4.12,
    "text": "and answered"
  },
  {
    "start": 4.18,
    "end": 5.04,
    "text": "a question about Third"
  },
  {
    "start": 5.12,
    "end": 6.34,
    "text": "States responsibilities."
  },
  {
    "start": 6.44,
    "end": 6.78,
    "text": "And there,"
  },
  {
    "start": 6.96,
    "end": 10.06,
    "text": "among other things, it said that Third States certainly shouldn't aid and"
  },
  {
    "start": 10.1,
    "end": 11.08,
    "text": "assist in creating"
  },
  {
    "start": 11.12,
    "end": 20.72,
    "text": "this reality, that they shouldn't recognize this reality as lawful, and that they should take actions so as not to have"
  },
  {
    "start": 20.76,
    "end": 21.94,
    "text": "a hand in maintaining"
  },
  {
    "start": 22.1,
    "end": 22.64,
    "text": "this illegal."
  },
  {
    "start": 23.46,
    "end": 23.98,
    "text": "enterprise"
  },
  {
    "start": 24.06,
    "end": 25.0,
    "text": "or in entrenching it."
  },
  {
    "start": 25.56,
    "end": 27.04,
    "text": "So for example, that would"
  },
  {
    "start": 27.12,
    "end": 27.32,
    "text": "mean"
  },
  {
    "start": 27.92,
    "end": 33.36,
    "text": "that you shouldn't in any way economically assist Israel to maintain its illegal"
  },
  {
    "start": 33.46,
    "end": 33.78,
    "text": "presence"
  },
  {
    "start": 33.82,
    "end": 35.34,
    "text": "in occupied Palestinian territories."
  },
  {
    "start": 35.68,
    "end": 40.12,
    "text": "In fact, you should create economic incentives not to maintain that reality."
  },
  {
    "start": 43.0,
    "end": 46.8,
    "text": "Welcome to a candid conversation on Palestine, Israel and Europe."
  },
  {
    "start": 47.66,
    "end": 53.6,
    "text": "In this episode, Valeska Held, one of candidate's political officers, speaks with legal expert Dr."
  },
  {
    "start": 53.68,
    "end": 62.52,
    "text": "Etan Diamond, who elaborates on the growing challenges faced by civil society and humanitarian actors in the Israeli-Palestinian context."
  },
  {
    "start": 63.48,
    "end": 74.22,
    "text": "He also unpacks the often confused fields of human rights and humanitarian law and shows how the law is stretched to justify violations rather than protect civilians."
  },
  {
    "start": 75.12,
    "end": 82.76,
    "text": "Eitan and Baleska clarify how these violations create legal obligations for third states, including EU member states."
  },
  {
    "start": 96.9,
    "end": 97.82,
    "text": "I'm Valeska Heldt."
  },
  {
    "start": 98.02,
    "end": 100.28,
    "text": "I'm a political officer at the Candid Foundation."
  },
  {
    "start": 100.58,
    "end": 105.68,
    "text": "I'm implementing the APICON project mostly in the EU's Mediterranean countries."
  },
  {
    "start": 105.8,
    "end": 109.6,
    "text": "So it's like Portugal, Spain, France, Greece, Cyprus."
  },
  {
    "start": 111.04,
    "end": 111.62,
    "text": "Hi, Aitan."
  },
  {
    "start": 112.5,
    "end": 112.52,
    "text": "Hi."
  },
  {
    "start": 112.98,
    "end": 113.28,
    "text": "Thanks for"
  },
  {
    "start": 113.32,
    "end": 113.86,
    "text": "the invitation."
  },
  {
    "start": 114.22,
    "end": 115.3,
    "text": "Thanks for being with us."
  },
  {
    "start": 116.46,
    "end": 123.78,
    "text": "So you're an international lawyer specializing in international humanitarian law known as IHL and human rights law."
  },
  {
    "start": 124.58,
    "end": 133.32,
    "text": "You're the manager and senior legal expert at the International Humanitarian Law Center, overseeing its work in the Israeli-Palestinian context."
  },
  {
    "start": 133.98,
    "end": 152.06,
    "text": "You have previously worked, among many others, as a legal advisor for the delegation of the international comedy of the Red Cross, also known as ICRC in Israel, and the Occupy Territories, and as a researcher and legal advisor for the NGO, Bezalem."
  },
  {
    "start": 154.74,
    "end": 164.0,
    "text": "So Eitan, we met a few months ago in Copenhagen, independently of both of us for our respective work."
  },
  {
    "start": 165.26,
    "end": 176.34,
    "text": "And I was wondering if you could talk to us a little bit about the work that you're doing, specifically also when you're traveling in Europe, but also because you're based in Jerusalem."
  },
  {
    "start": 178.52,
    "end": 188.74,
    "text": "So, yeah, so we traveled to European capitals to meet with the legal advisors that they have and other public officials in European capitals."
  },
  {
    "start": 189.2,
    "end": 192.1,
    "text": "That wasn't really the initial model that we had for our work."
  },
  {
    "start": 192.16,
    "end": 192.76,
    "text": "We were focused"
  },
  {
    "start": 192.88,
    "end": 196.12,
    "text": "on the context and worked with humanitarian actors"
  },
  {
    "start": 196.18,
    "end": 196.3,
    "text": "in the"
  },
  {
    "start": 196.38,
    "end": 198.2,
    "text": "context and diplomats."
  },
  {
    "start": 199.78,
    "end": 204.66,
    "text": "But we felt and we also had indication from people that we were meeting, including diplomatic"
  },
  {
    "start": 204.96,
    "end": 205.82,
    "text": "representatives."
  },
  {
    "start": 206.78,
    "end": 208.16,
    "text": "on the ground that it would"
  },
  {
    "start": 208.2,
    "end": 210.18,
    "text": "be important to meet with people in capital."
  },
  {
    "start": 211.74,
    "end": 217.6,
    "text": "The reason for that is that we don't really have direct access with the main duty bearers in our context."
  },
  {
    "start": 218.02,
    "end": 220.22,
    "text": "We don't meet with Israeli authorities formally."
  },
  {
    "start": 221.04,
    "end": 225.06,
    "text": "So we have very little possibility to directly influence them."
  },
  {
    "start": 225.48,
    "end": 227.52,
    "text": "And so we have to figure out ways to indirectly"
  },
  {
    "start": 227.6,
    "end": 228.14,
    "text": "influence them."
  },
  {
    "start": 228.22,
    "end": 228.84,
    "text": "And one of those"
  },
  {
    "start": 228.92,
    "end": 230.62,
    "text": "is to speak to actors who hopefully"
  },
  {
    "start": 230.72,
    "end": 231.16,
    "text": "do carry"
  },
  {
    "start": 231.3,
    "end": 241.82,
    "text": "some influence over Israel and who would want to push for Israel to behave in a manner that accords with its obligations under international law."
  },
  {
    "start": 242.4,
    "end": 242.92,
    "text": "And that makes"
  },
  {
    "start": 244.06,
    "end": 244.84,
    "text": "European states,"
  },
  {
    "start": 244.96,
    "end": 248.62,
    "text": "EU members, a prime kind of target for engagement."
  },
  {
    "start": 249.88,
    "end": 254.18,
    "text": "And when it comes to Israel, certainly at the moment, it seems that the decisions are made at a high level."
  },
  {
    "start": 254.54,
    "end": 256.519,
    "text": "So we can meet with diplomats on the ground."
  },
  {
    "start": 256.959,
    "end": 258.579,
    "text": "They may or may not agree with us."
  },
  {
    "start": 258.86,
    "end": 260.1,
    "text": "My sense is that they generally"
  },
  {
    "start": 260.92,
    "end": 261.8,
    "text": "share our views."
  },
  {
    "start": 262.62,
    "end": 265.42,
    "text": "But if we want to actually change policies,"
  },
  {
    "start": 265.5,
    "end": 266.42,
    "text": "we have to try and speak"
  },
  {
    "start": 266.5,
    "end": 267.24,
    "text": "with people in more"
  },
  {
    "start": 267.32,
    "end": 269.24,
    "text": "senior positions or closer to the decision"
  },
  {
    "start": 269.3,
    "end": 269.6,
    "text": "makers."
  },
  {
    "start": 269.66,
    "end": 270.48,
    "text": "So we've"
  },
  {
    "start": 270.56,
    "end": 272.5,
    "text": "been trying to do more and more of that."
  },
  {
    "start": 274.04,
    "end": 275.88,
    "text": "Yeah, not with as much success as we'd like."
  },
  {
    "start": 275.92,
    "end": 277.7,
    "text": "Again, I'm not sure we're not persuading people."
  },
  {
    "start": 277.9,
    "end": 279.84,
    "text": "I think the issue is not so much that we have to"
  },
  {
    "start": 279.9,
    "end": 281.1,
    "text": "persuade fellow"
  },
  {
    "start": 282.32,
    "end": 284.7,
    "text": "appears amongst the lawyers, even those working for the"
  },
  {
    "start": 284.78,
    "end": 285.04,
    "text": "state."
  },
  {
    "start": 285.12,
    "end": 290.1,
    "text": "It's more the political echelon where the calculations are not necessarily based on"
  },
  {
    "start": 290.44,
    "end": 290.74,
    "text": "the law."
  },
  {
    "start": 291.6,
    "end": 291.82,
    "text": "Right."
  },
  {
    "start": 292.52,
    "end": 301.5,
    "text": "Yeah, we'll go more into detail about this But I was wondering so and when you're back home in Jerusalem, New York, so you live in Tel Aviv, right?"
  },
  {
    "start": 303.54,
    "end": 306.86,
    "text": "What what does your work entail over there?"
  },
  {
    "start": 307.4,
    "end": 312.22,
    "text": "Yeah So, I mean basically what we try to do as an IHL center is to"
  },
  {
    "start": 312.32,
    "end": 313.64,
    "text": "produce as reliable"
  },
  {
    "start": 313.72,
    "end": 326.72,
    "text": "and comprehensive an account as possible of the violations that are occurring in the context with a view to somehow bring about corrective action, to bring the parties to actually abide by their obligations."
  },
  {
    "start": 327.62,
    "end": 334.4,
    "text": "I mean, to be honest, that sometimes feels like a vain aspiration in the context where that's so rife with violations."
  },
  {
    "start": 334.9,
    "end": 336.62,
    "text": "But we do believe that it's really important"
  },
  {
    "start": 336.8,
    "end": 336.84,
    "text": "to"
  },
  {
    "start": 336.94,
    "end": 340.1,
    "text": "keep an eye on these issues and to keep awareness."
  },
  {
    "start": 341.68,
    "end": 344.78,
    "text": "of various audiences about these violations that"
  },
  {
    "start": 344.88,
    "end": 345.9,
    "text": "we're witnessing"
  },
  {
    "start": 345.98,
    "end": 352.96,
    "text": "and also to have some kind of pressure on the authorities so that when they commit violations, at least there's some kind of counter"
  },
  {
    "start": 353.06,
    "end": 354.68,
    "text": "pressure for them to correct course."
  },
  {
    "start": 355.86,
    "end": 359.08,
    "text": "In order to do that, we invest a lot of time in"
  },
  {
    "start": 359.24,
    "end": 360.18,
    "text": "research, first of all."
  },
  {
    "start": 360.36,
    "end": 363.66,
    "text": "So we don't actually ourselves collect the data"
  },
  {
    "start": 363.8,
    "end": 364.42,
    "text": "from the ground."
  },
  {
    "start": 364.54,
    "end": 365.56,
    "text": "There are lots of actors"
  },
  {
    "start": 365.64,
    "end": 365.94,
    "text": "that do"
  },
  {
    "start": 366.06,
    "end": 367.14,
    "text": "that in our context."
  },
  {
    "start": 368.08,
    "end": 369.74,
    "text": "It's becoming increasingly difficult to do that."
  },
  {
    "start": 369.8,
    "end": 371.7,
    "text": "Perhaps that's something we can discuss."
  },
  {
    "start": 371.8,
    "end": 374.88,
    "text": "But there is still a lot of information out there."
  },
  {
    "start": 375.46,
    "end": 375.9,
    "text": "What we do"
  },
  {
    "start": 376.16,
    "end": 382.04,
    "text": "is to reflect on this information through the prism of international law, particularly international humanitarian law, the"
  },
  {
    "start": 382.1,
    "end": 382.68,
    "text": "laws of war."
  },
  {
    "start": 383.48,
    "end": 384.68,
    "text": "And to assess"
  },
  {
    "start": 385.02,
    "end": 392.82,
    "text": "whether this conduct abides by the law, it's unfortunately... dozens in many, many cases."
  },
  {
    "start": 392.9,
    "end": 393.3,
    "text": "There's so"
  },
  {
    "start": 393.44,
    "end": 394.18,
    "text": "many, the list"
  },
  {
    "start": 394.24,
    "end": 394.86,
    "text": "of violations"
  },
  {
    "start": 394.9,
    "end": 396.18,
    "text": "that we're witnessing is very long."
  },
  {
    "start": 396.72,
    "end": 398.78,
    "text": "So we try to analyze those violations."
  },
  {
    "start": 398.82,
    "end": 406.74,
    "text": "And then once we've done that, we engage in awareness raising, for example, the kind of meetings that I was describing"
  },
  {
    "start": 406.78,
    "end": 407.08,
    "text": "before"
  },
  {
    "start": 407.18,
    "end": 413.2,
    "text": "at Vokasi with the various circles, I suppose you could call it humanitarian diplomacy that we try to"
  },
  {
    "start": 413.28,
    "end": 413.32,
    "text": "do,"
  },
  {
    "start": 414.24,
    "end": 418.28,
    "text": "all with a view to create pressure to abide by the law."
  },
  {
    "start": 419.18,
    "end": 422.74,
    "text": "And we also, one other thing that we do is capacity building, we call it."
  },
  {
    "start": 422.8,
    "end": 426.9,
    "text": "So we try to increase knowledge and understanding of the law"
  },
  {
    "start": 427.08,
    "end": 428.32,
    "text": "amongst key stakeholders."
  },
  {
    "start": 428.38,
    "end": 431.7,
    "text": "So that would include human rights defenders, humanitarian actors"
  },
  {
    "start": 431.74,
    "end": 433.64,
    "text": "in the context, journalists,"
  },
  {
    "start": 434.14,
    "end": 436.9,
    "text": "that's something we're doing more now, and diplomats."
  },
  {
    "start": 437.82,
    "end": 442.74,
    "text": "And to be honest, we've been aiming at diplomats very heavily recently,"
  },
  {
    "start": 442.84,
    "end": 443.24,
    "text": "just in the"
  },
  {
    "start": 443.34,
    "end": 443.88,
    "text": "hope that this"
  },
  {
    "start": 443.96,
    "end": 444.66,
    "text": "will somehow"
  },
  {
    "start": 445.18,
    "end": 447.18,
    "text": "kind of trickle through to decision makers."
  },
  {
    "start": 448.46,
    "end": 450.82,
    "text": "Okay."
  },
  {
    "start": 450.86,
    "end": 474.02,
    "text": "Yeah, because I was also wondering when I was preparing for the podcast, if your colleagues on the ground or maybe also in the who are based in the West Bank or if they're facing especially because of the kind of work that you're doing if they're facing restrictions or backlash also because you've been very outspoken also through various media channels."
  },
  {
    "start": 476.74,
    "end": 485.4,
    "text": "In my case personally, I'm an Israeli national, so for the time being there's still a hope that I can speak out in Israel."
  },
  {
    "start": 488.06,
    "end": 490.92,
    "text": "Without too much risk although I'm not sure that's going to be the case."
  },
  {
    "start": 491.18,
    "end": 495.98,
    "text": "looking ahead There's some political changes on the horizon in Israel already unfolding which are"
  },
  {
    "start": 496.5,
    "end": 496.98,
    "text": "making many"
  },
  {
    "start": 497.08,
    "end": 500.86,
    "text": "of us I think perhaps twice about what we"
  },
  {
    "start": 501.0,
    "end": 501.2,
    "text": "say."
  },
  {
    "start": 501.54,
    "end": 502.96,
    "text": "Are you also referring"
  },
  {
    "start": 503.04,
    "end": 504.16,
    "text": "to the NGO Billers?"
  },
  {
    "start": 504.48,
    "end": 506.46,
    "text": "Yeah, so I can break it down in a moment."
  },
  {
    "start": 506.52,
    "end": 512.559,
    "text": "So perhaps I'll try and sort of survey the various restrictions, because you didn't ask about me, you were asking about my Palestinian colleagues."
  },
  {
    "start": 513.08,
    "end": 514.28,
    "text": "And certainly they face"
  },
  {
    "start": 514.539,
    "end": 516.039,
    "text": "and have been facing for a long time."
  },
  {
    "start": 516.12,
    "end": 516.64,
    "text": "It's not just my"
  },
  {
    "start": 516.74,
    "end": 518.0,
    "text": "colleagues, it's across the board"
  },
  {
    "start": 518.12,
    "end": 523.419,
    "text": "with civil society, the various means of kind of repression."
  },
  {
    "start": 525.7,
    "end": 527.78,
    "text": "that actors who work to expose,"
  },
  {
    "start": 527.86,
    "end": 528.52,
    "text": "to document"
  },
  {
    "start": 528.68,
    "end": 530.2,
    "text": "violations are facing."
  },
  {
    "start": 530.52,
    "end": 530.62,
    "text": "That"
  },
  {
    "start": 530.68,
    "end": 531.82,
    "text": "includes journalists."
  },
  {
    "start": 532.14,
    "end": 537.08,
    "text": "The number of journalists that have been killed in Gaza in particular is really alarming."
  },
  {
    "start": 538.88,
    "end": 541.5,
    "text": "But also humanitarian actors and human rights defenders."
  },
  {
    "start": 541.54,
    "end": 542.42,
    "text": "There's a whole set of"
  },
  {
    "start": 542.52,
    "end": 542.9,
    "text": "hurdles"
  },
  {
    "start": 542.94,
    "end": 545.68,
    "text": "that have been created to make the work more difficult."
  },
  {
    "start": 546.28,
    "end": 550.62,
    "text": "So what we face as an international organization are, first of all,"
  },
  {
    "start": 550.7,
    "end": 551.36,
    "text": "restrictions"
  },
  {
    "start": 551.48,
    "end": 552.16,
    "text": "in access."
  },
  {
    "start": 552.6,
    "end": 552.98,
    "text": "We had"
  },
  {
    "start": 553.46,
    "end": 556.68,
    "text": "On my team, a few of the lawyers are expatriates."
  },
  {
    "start": 556.94,
    "end": 560.82,
    "text": "They come from other countries and ordinarily would be working in Jerusalem with us."
  },
  {
    "start": 561.54,
    "end": 562.96,
    "text": "And I have a colleague who's"
  },
  {
    "start": 563.04,
    "end": 564.54,
    "text": "based in Bethlehem who would"
  },
  {
    "start": 564.86,
    "end": 567.36,
    "text": "ordinarily be coming into Jerusalem every day to work."
  },
  {
    "start": 568.5,
    "end": 578.98,
    "text": "The challenge that we've been facing since the beginning of the war is that Israel has been withholding visas for foreign workers working with INGOs, with international"
  },
  {
    "start": 580.08,
    "end": 580.86,
    "text": "organizations."
  },
  {
    "start": 581.44,
    "end": 584.48,
    "text": "And it's been withholding permits for many Palestinian workers."
  },
  {
    "start": 584.56,
    "end": 590.5,
    "text": "So in order for my colleague from Bethlehem to come into Jerusalem, even though our office is in occupied East"
  },
  {
    "start": 590.56,
    "end": 591.72,
    "text": "Jerusalem, she needs a permit"
  },
  {
    "start": 591.76,
    "end": 592.9,
    "text": "from the Israeli authorities."
  },
  {
    "start": 592.96,
    "end": 593.14,
    "text": "She has"
  },
  {
    "start": 593.18,
    "end": 594.02,
    "text": "to go through a checkpoint."
  },
  {
    "start": 594.06,
    "end": 594.8,
    "text": "Your office is in East Jerusalem."
  },
  {
    "start": 594.98,
    "end": 596.7,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 597.54,
    "end": 602.2,
    "text": "under international that's part of the Palestinian territory but Palestinians from other parts of the West Bank"
  },
  {
    "start": 602.28,
    "end": 602.54,
    "text": "still need"
  },
  {
    "start": 602.58,
    "end": 603.64,
    "text": "a permit to get through and that"
  },
  {
    "start": 603.72,
    "end": 604.48,
    "text": "isn't provided."
  },
  {
    "start": 604.94,
    "end": 606.08,
    "text": "so that's one colleague"
  },
  {
    "start": 606.12,
    "end": 606.68,
    "text": "who can't come to"
  },
  {
    "start": 606.74,
    "end": 607.1,
    "text": "the office."
  },
  {
    "start": 607.18,
    "end": 607.32,
    "text": "then"
  },
  {
    "start": 607.94,
    "end": 608.34,
    "text": "my colleagues"
  },
  {
    "start": 608.38,
    "end": 609.14,
    "text": "from other countries"
  },
  {
    "start": 609.2,
    "end": 609.4,
    "text": "can't"
  },
  {
    "start": 609.44,
    "end": 610.22,
    "text": "come into the country."
  },
  {
    "start": 610.38,
    "end": 610.82,
    "text": "they can come as"
  },
  {
    "start": 610.9,
    "end": 611.46,
    "text": "tourists for"
  },
  {
    "start": 611.7,
    "end": 615.12,
    "text": "a couple of weeks but then They have to explain why they're there and they have to leave."
  },
  {
    "start": 615.84,
    "end": 616.46,
    "text": "So they haven't"
  },
  {
    "start": 616.5,
    "end": 616.92,
    "text": "been there."
  },
  {
    "start": 617.34,
    "end": 618.86,
    "text": "So we have an office in East Jerusalem."
  },
  {
    "start": 619.0,
    "end": 620.44,
    "text": "You mentioned before that I live in Tel Aviv."
  },
  {
    "start": 620.5,
    "end": 622.28,
    "text": "I've been working from Tel Aviv and my colleagues"
  },
  {
    "start": 622.32,
    "end": 622.64,
    "text": "have been"
  },
  {
    "start": 622.72,
    "end": 625.92,
    "text": "working from... We've been working a bit like we did in the pandemic."
  },
  {
    "start": 626.92,
    "end": 630.16,
    "text": "So we have a kind of fictional office that we can't access."
  },
  {
    "start": 631.44,
    "end": 637.6,
    "text": "In our case, that's a difficulty, but it's not fatal to the work."
  },
  {
    "start": 637.78,
    "end": 638.34,
    "text": "But there are many"
  },
  {
    "start": 638.9,
    "end": 639.22,
    "text": "actors"
  },
  {
    "start": 639.3,
    "end": 642.18,
    "text": "who do different kinds of... of activities,"
  },
  {
    "start": 642.24,
    "end": 642.86,
    "text": "they provide"
  },
  {
    "start": 642.92,
    "end": 643.5,
    "text": "humanitarian"
  },
  {
    "start": 643.62,
    "end": 644.64,
    "text": "services on the ground."
  },
  {
    "start": 644.68,
    "end": 644.74,
    "text": "So"
  },
  {
    "start": 644.82,
    "end": 652.48,
    "text": "you need someone who has, I don't know, medical expertise or an engineer who's an expert on water facilities."
  },
  {
    "start": 652.56,
    "end": 653.12,
    "text": "People like that"
  },
  {
    "start": 653.2,
    "end": 654.38,
    "text": "whose services are crucial"
  },
  {
    "start": 655.04,
    "end": 657.5,
    "text": "are not being allowed in, and that's really creating an obstruction"
  },
  {
    "start": 658.04,
    "end": 658.84,
    "text": "for organizations"
  },
  {
    "start": 658.88,
    "end": 659.64,
    "text": "to be able to work."
  },
  {
    "start": 660.18,
    "end": 662.08,
    "text": "So that's one set of limitations."
  },
  {
    "start": 662.28,
    "end": 668.62,
    "text": "I mean, I don't want to exhaust the whole podcast just running through all of these, but I will just say that there are also some more"
  },
  {
    "start": 668.72,
    "end": 669.18,
    "text": "threatening"
  },
  {
    "start": 671.76,
    "end": 674.56,
    "text": "initiatives from Israel on the horizon, and actually also from the"
  },
  {
    "start": 674.7,
    "end": 674.94,
    "text": "US."
  },
  {
    "start": 675.86,
    "end": 677.52,
    "text": "So part of that is to criminalize"
  },
  {
    "start": 678.06,
    "end": 679.98,
    "text": "efforts to promote international"
  },
  {
    "start": 680.06,
    "end": 680.96,
    "text": "criminal justice."
  },
  {
    "start": 681.42,
    "end": 682.4,
    "text": "We've seen from the US"
  },
  {
    "start": 682.56,
    "end": 686.04,
    "text": "there's a presidential order that criminalizes"
  },
  {
    "start": 686.18,
    "end": 686.76,
    "text": "engagement"
  },
  {
    "start": 688.04,
    "end": 689.96,
    "text": "with the ICC, the International Criminal Court,"
  },
  {
    "start": 690.14,
    "end": 692.76,
    "text": "and they've already taken steps against certain individuals"
  },
  {
    "start": 692.82,
    "end": 693.64,
    "text": "and organizations,"
  },
  {
    "start": 693.68,
    "end": 693.98,
    "text": "including"
  },
  {
    "start": 694.02,
    "end": 694.56,
    "text": "Palestinian"
  },
  {
    "start": 695.2,
    "end": 696.4,
    "text": "human rights organizations."
  },
  {
    "start": 697.32,
    "end": 702.12,
    "text": "In Israel, there's also an initiative to criminalize cooperation with the ICC."
  },
  {
    "start": 702.32,
    "end": 706.4,
    "text": "that would apply to all of us, all these various, so certainly for Palestinians, but also"
  },
  {
    "start": 706.5,
    "end": 707.02,
    "text": "for Israeli"
  },
  {
    "start": 707.12,
    "end": 709.48,
    "text": "organizations and individuals and for internationals."
  },
  {
    "start": 710.12,
    "end": 712.74,
    "text": "The penalty in the bull that's been proposed"
  },
  {
    "start": 712.84,
    "end": 714.9,
    "text": "for cooperation is up to five years"
  },
  {
    "start": 715.78,
    "end": 716.3,
    "text": "imprisonment."
  },
  {
    "start": 717.5,
    "end": 718.4,
    "text": "And if you disclose"
  },
  {
    "start": 718.46,
    "end": 719.04,
    "text": "information"
  },
  {
    "start": 719.22,
    "end": 720.12,
    "text": "that's confidential, that"
  },
  {
    "start": 720.16,
    "end": 721.16,
    "text": "could be a life sentence."
  },
  {
    "start": 721.22,
    "end": 723.6,
    "text": "So that has a kind of chilling effect that isn't enforced"
  },
  {
    "start": 723.68,
    "end": 723.84,
    "text": "yet."
  },
  {
    "start": 724.44,
    "end": 725.22,
    "text": "But that's one thing."
  },
  {
    "start": 726.52,
    "end": 729.38,
    "text": "Another initiative is to impose taxation"
  },
  {
    "start": 730.68,
    "end": 734.96,
    "text": "on the donations that Israeli organizations receive from foreign donors."
  },
  {
    "start": 735.2,
    "end": 737.36,
    "text": "Most of the human rights organizations are supported"
  },
  {
    "start": 737.78,
    "end": 738.3,
    "text": "by states,"
  },
  {
    "start": 739.22,
    "end": 741.02,
    "text": "including I think by Germany in some cases."
  },
  {
    "start": 741.7,
    "end": 742.4,
    "text": "And the proposal"
  },
  {
    "start": 742.48,
    "end": 743.16,
    "text": "is to impose"
  },
  {
    "start": 743.22,
    "end": 744.24,
    "text": "an eighty percent tax"
  },
  {
    "start": 744.66,
    "end": 744.78,
    "text": "on,"
  },
  {
    "start": 745.84,
    "end": 747.04,
    "text": "this is a model that we've seen"
  },
  {
    "start": 748.12,
    "end": 750.48,
    "text": "promoted in Eastern Europe in various places."
  },
  {
    "start": 750.62,
    "end": 756.3,
    "text": "So yeah, yeah, so they've adopted this and It's basically to suffocate these organizations."
  },
  {
    "start": 756.38,
    "end": 760.76,
    "text": "They'll cut off their sources of income and make it impossible for them to operate."
  },
  {
    "start": 761.22,
    "end": 761.9,
    "text": "With Palestinian"
  },
  {
    "start": 762.0,
    "end": 764.94,
    "text": "human rights organizations, the steps have been more severe."
  },
  {
    "start": 765.0,
    "end": 765.82,
    "text": "So some of them have been"
  },
  {
    "start": 765.88,
    "end": 768.1,
    "text": "declared terrorist organizations"
  },
  {
    "start": 768.26,
    "end": 774.1,
    "text": "because they have an affiliation to political entities in Palestinian society that have been labeled"
  },
  {
    "start": 774.18,
    "end": 774.76,
    "text": "as terrorists."
  },
  {
    "start": 775.58,
    "end": 777.86,
    "text": "And so they are not allowed to operate."
  },
  {
    "start": 778.78,
    "end": 779.8,
    "text": "this is just a sample."
  },
  {
    "start": 779.84,
    "end": 782.66,
    "text": "there are more of these kinds of measures but in general we're having this kind of"
  },
  {
    "start": 782.76,
    "end": 783.48,
    "text": "shrinking both"
  },
  {
    "start": 783.56,
    "end": 786.16,
    "text": "of civic space and humanitarian"
  },
  {
    "start": 786.24,
    "end": 786.58,
    "text": "space."
  },
  {
    "start": 787.12,
    "end": 789.46,
    "text": "At just one last point on that the shrinking of humanitarian"
  },
  {
    "start": 789.54,
    "end": 790.24,
    "text": "space in the case"
  },
  {
    "start": 790.3,
    "end": 795.0,
    "text": "of Gaza has been really tragic because humanitarian"
  },
  {
    "start": 795.12,
    "end": 797.52,
    "text": "actors that provide services there that"
  },
  {
    "start": 797.58,
    "end": 800.1,
    "text": "are really life-saving and crucially"
  },
  {
    "start": 800.22,
    "end": 801.96,
    "text": "needed are being prevented from"
  },
  {
    "start": 802.02,
    "end": 802.52,
    "text": "being able to"
  },
  {
    "start": 802.78,
    "end": 803.34,
    "text": "to operate."
  },
  {
    "start": 806.18,
    "end": 824.02,
    "text": "Yeah, so on that very positive note, I wanted to touch upon quickly on your trajectory also, because you didn't start off as a lawyer in international humanitarian law specifically."
  },
  {
    "start": 825.42,
    "end": 830.28,
    "text": "Can you tell us a little bit about what made you go into that field,"
  },
  {
    "start": 830.9,
    "end": 831.44,
    "text": "particularly"
  },
  {
    "start": 832.0,
    "end": 833.78,
    "text": "as an Israeli national, maybe like?"
  },
  {
    "start": 834.32,
    "end": 842.62,
    "text": "That's something that from the outside seems an interesting path to go because it's it's a difficult one, especially in that the setting you're working in."
  },
  {
    "start": 843.16,
    "end": 844.22,
    "text": "Yeah, it's becoming difficult."
  },
  {
    "start": 844.26,
    "end": 844.42,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 844.52,
    "end": 848.22,
    "text": "So for me, as you said, actually, I didn't think that I would be doing this."
  },
  {
    "start": 848.54,
    "end": 851.28,
    "text": "I studied international law when I was studying law and it was."
  },
  {
    "start": 851.62,
    "end": 852.48,
    "text": "This boring course"
  },
  {
    "start": 852.54,
    "end": 856.22,
    "text": "that I didn't dream would be what I pursued subsequently."
  },
  {
    "start": 856.88,
    "end": 858.52,
    "text": "We had a teacher who was"
  },
  {
    "start": 859.32,
    "end": 860.36,
    "text": "quite a conservative."
  },
  {
    "start": 860.76,
    "end": 863.22,
    "text": "This was in Israel at the Hebrew University."
  },
  {
    "start": 863.26,
    "end": 866.1,
    "text": "He was quite conservative and so he chose to teach us international"
  },
  {
    "start": 866.18,
    "end": 866.74,
    "text": "law in a way that"
  },
  {
    "start": 866.8,
    "end": 867.32,
    "text": "didn't connect"
  },
  {
    "start": 867.54,
    "end": 868.92,
    "text": "at all to the political reality."
  },
  {
    "start": 869.98,
    "end": 871.56,
    "text": "It didn't seem like anything would possibly"
  },
  {
    "start": 871.68,
    "end": 872.02,
    "text": "interest me."
  },
  {
    "start": 872.1,
    "end": 872.14,
    "text": "And"
  },
  {
    "start": 872.18,
    "end": 874.08,
    "text": "this was in the nineteen nineties."
  },
  {
    "start": 874.18,
    "end": 875.38,
    "text": "I'm kind of dating myself here."
  },
  {
    "start": 876.9,
    "end": 879.74,
    "text": "So the nineteen nineties were relatively optimistic time."
  },
  {
    "start": 880.32,
    "end": 882.24,
    "text": "For me personally, I'm South African originally."
  },
  {
    "start": 882.42,
    "end": 885.28,
    "text": "So there was this optimism of the end"
  },
  {
    "start": 885.34,
    "end": 886.12,
    "text": "of the Cold War."
  },
  {
    "start": 887.34,
    "end": 889.52,
    "text": "In South Africa, apartheid had come to a close."
  },
  {
    "start": 889.86,
    "end": 891.98,
    "text": "There were peace negotiations in Israel."
  },
  {
    "start": 892.02,
    "end": 896.98,
    "text": "And at least from the perspective of Israelis, it looked very positive at the time, the Oslo Accords."
  },
  {
    "start": 897.6,
    "end": 898.68,
    "text": "So I was studying law."
  },
  {
    "start": 899.0,
    "end": 902.34,
    "text": "I finished in just before the Second Intifada erupted."
  },
  {
    "start": 903.58,
    "end": 907.48,
    "text": "It didn't occur to me that, I mean, I was expecting there'd be peace any moment now."
  },
  {
    "start": 907.64,
    "end": 908.9,
    "text": "And I studied commercial law"
  },
  {
    "start": 908.96,
    "end": 910.7,
    "text": "and thought that that was what I'd be doing."
  },
  {
    "start": 912.02,
    "end": 917.48,
    "text": "And then just as I came out of law school, the Second Intifada erupted."
  },
  {
    "start": 917.54,
    "end": 919.9,
    "text": "In fact, I had been called up for reserve"
  },
  {
    "start": 919.96,
    "end": 920.24,
    "text": "duty."
  },
  {
    "start": 921.08,
    "end": 924.6,
    "text": "You know, in Israel, we have to do, I had served in the military and I was called up for reserve duty."
  },
  {
    "start": 926.08,
    "end": 927.42,
    "text": "My service had been during these"
  },
  {
    "start": 927.52,
    "end": 929.1,
    "text": "kind of peace years, so I hadn't actually"
  },
  {
    "start": 929.72,
    "end": 930.02,
    "text": "ever been"
  },
  {
    "start": 930.08,
    "end": 930.32,
    "text": "into the"
  },
  {
    "start": 930.4,
    "end": 931.42,
    "text": "territories as a soldier."
  },
  {
    "start": 931.52,
    "end": 932.56,
    "text": "I hadn't come across these"
  },
  {
    "start": 932.6,
    "end": 932.8,
    "text": "sort of,"
  },
  {
    "start": 933.36,
    "end": 934.64,
    "text": "at least not firsthand, across"
  },
  {
    "start": 935.54,
    "end": 936.16,
    "text": "disturbing"
  },
  {
    "start": 937.3,
    "end": 939.34,
    "text": "kind of engagements with Palestinians."
  },
  {
    "start": 939.38,
    "end": 940.8,
    "text": "This was after the First Intifada."
  },
  {
    "start": 941.96,
    "end": 946.28,
    "text": "But when the Second Intifada erupted, it was a shock, really."
  },
  {
    "start": 946.66,
    "end": 947.74,
    "text": "And it unfolded"
  },
  {
    "start": 947.78,
    "end": 948.46,
    "text": "in stages,"
  },
  {
    "start": 949.26,
    "end": 956.52,
    "text": "but eventually... There came a point where I decided that I have to"
  },
  {
    "start": 957.52,
    "end": 958.0,
    "text": "refocus"
  },
  {
    "start": 958.08,
    "end": 958.58,
    "text": "what I'm doing."
  },
  {
    "start": 958.72,
    "end": 960.2,
    "text": "I became so troubled by what I was"
  },
  {
    "start": 960.3,
    "end": 960.78,
    "text": "witnessing."
  },
  {
    "start": 961.66,
    "end": 962.58,
    "text": "So, I mean, there were two"
  },
  {
    "start": 962.64,
    "end": 963.02,
    "text": "decisions"
  },
  {
    "start": 963.06,
    "end": 963.62,
    "text": "that came from that."
  },
  {
    "start": 963.68,
    "end": 964.02,
    "text": "The one"
  },
  {
    "start": 964.08,
    "end": 964.96,
    "text": "was to join this"
  },
  {
    "start": 965.26,
    "end": 965.8,
    "text": "movement of"
  },
  {
    "start": 966.3,
    "end": 969.12,
    "text": "refugees, as they're called in Israel, so to refuse to serve"
  },
  {
    "start": 969.82,
    "end": 973.64,
    "text": "initially in the occupied territories and subsequently in the military at all."
  },
  {
    "start": 975.0,
    "end": 975.08,
    "text": "And"
  },
  {
    "start": 975.12,
    "end": 975.38,
    "text": "then to"
  },
  {
    "start": 975.5,
    "end": 977.36,
    "text": "study international..."
  },
  {
    "start": 978.34,
    "end": 979.0,
    "text": "I soon discovered"
  },
  {
    "start": 979.04,
    "end": 980.22,
    "text": "that the relevant area was the"
  },
  {
    "start": 980.3,
    "end": 980.48,
    "text": "laws"
  },
  {
    "start": 980.54,
    "end": 982.38,
    "text": "of war, international humanitarian law."
  },
  {
    "start": 983.14,
    "end": 987.96,
    "text": "And I went to the UK, I studied that at the LSE and came back and joined B'tzelem."
  },
  {
    "start": 988.0,
    "end": 992.42,
    "text": "And that was sort of the beginning of the trajectory that sort of brought me to this point."
  },
  {
    "start": 994.0,
    "end": 994.64,
    "text": "What I can say is"
  },
  {
    "start": 994.68,
    "end": 996.1,
    "text": "that the issues that I was bothered"
  },
  {
    "start": 996.16,
    "end": 996.3,
    "text": "by"
  },
  {
    "start": 996.36,
    "end": 1001.16,
    "text": "at the time, I mean, now I know that some of the things that I was witnessing"
  },
  {
    "start": 1001.82,
    "end": 1002.76,
    "text": "were war crimes."
  },
  {
    "start": 1003.38,
    "end": 1007.78,
    "text": "It didn't occur to me at all that I would be using"
  },
  {
    "start": 1008.44,
    "end": 1009.68,
    "text": "the concept of apartheid"
  },
  {
    "start": 1009.84,
    "end": 1011.7,
    "text": "for the context in which I was living in."
  },
  {
    "start": 1011.76,
    "end": 1013.86,
    "text": "That came years later, took a long time to kind of,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1014.2,
    "end": 1014.52,
    "text": "especially"
  },
  {
    "start": 1014.56,
    "end": 1021.9,
    "text": "for someone from South Africa where that had a lot of meaning, but increasingly it became evident that the reality was one where that label"
  },
  {
    "start": 1022.36,
    "end": 1022.88,
    "text": "was fitting."
  },
  {
    "start": 1023.92,
    "end": 1030.119,
    "text": "It never in my wildest, well nightmares really occurred to me, that genocide would be a label that would be debatable in the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1030.18,
    "end": 1030.66,
    "text": "context."
  },
  {
    "start": 1030.72,
    "end": 1032.5,
    "text": "And for the last two years, increasingly,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1032.74,
    "end": 1036.72,
    "text": "I think now almost unavoidably, that's a a relevant label."
  },
  {
    "start": 1036.819,
    "end": 1039.339,
    "text": "So it hasn't, the picture that was bleak"
  },
  {
    "start": 1039.42,
    "end": 1040.839,
    "text": "when I started doing this work has"
  },
  {
    "start": 1040.92,
    "end": 1042.72,
    "text": "become much darker in the years since."
  },
  {
    "start": 1044.16,
    "end": 1046.3,
    "text": "Sorry, this is not being a very happy kind of conversation."
  },
  {
    "start": 1046.339,
    "end": 1046.9,
    "text": "No, no, no."
  },
  {
    "start": 1048.04,
    "end": 1071.32,
    "text": "I mean, unfortunately, when we're discussing these things, like it's, we've never had a positive note on this, I think, generally, I think, Well, we've been seeing in Europe, at least, and even though it's very little and very much too late, at least we're seeing a bit of movement on the European side."
  },
  {
    "start": 1072.58,
    "end": 1075.62,
    "text": "And this is, I think, the only way to go right now."
  },
  {
    "start": 1078.2,
    "end": 1097.66,
    "text": "But because we've been talking about international humanitarian law, and what I've been noticing also throughout our work at Epicon is that there is a little bit of confusion as to the very basic term of, so what does international humanitarian law versus international human rights law mean?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1097.9,
    "end": 1101.78,
    "text": "How do you differentiate these two bodies of law?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1102.4,
    "end": 1107.64,
    "text": "And specifically, how do they apply to the Israeli-Palestinian context?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1108.54,
    "end": 1112.94,
    "text": "And how does Israel in particular apply these two bodies of law?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1113.0,
    "end": 1120.56,
    "text": "Because We always hear, you know, Israel hasn't ratified, for example, the additional protocols to the Geneva Conventions."
  },
  {
    "start": 1121.1,
    "end": 1130.8,
    "text": "And how does it then still, because if it says, if it creates exceptions to the law, then it already implies that it is somehow recognizing it or somehow"
  },
  {
    "start": 1130.9,
    "end": 1131.12,
    "text": "apply."
  },
  {
    "start": 1131.2,
    "end": 1131.32,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 1131.84,
    "end": 1132.94,
    "text": "So there's quite a bit to unpack there."
  },
  {
    "start": 1132.98,
    "end": 1133.36,
    "text": "Yeah, sorry."
  },
  {
    "start": 1134.86,
    "end": 1135.86,
    "text": "It's not all that simple."
  },
  {
    "start": 1135.92,
    "end": 1144.88,
    "text": "But first of all, perhaps with international humanitarian law, IHL and human rights law, So there's some debate about how these two bodies of law interact, but they're definitely separate"
  },
  {
    "start": 1144.92,
    "end": 1145.54,
    "text": "bodies of law."
  },
  {
    "start": 1146.08,
    "end": 1146.66,
    "text": "The names"
  },
  {
    "start": 1146.74,
    "end": 1146.94,
    "text": "that we"
  },
  {
    "start": 1147.08,
    "end": 1148.26,
    "text": "use are a bit confusing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1149.66,
    "end": 1151.06,
    "text": "I suppose one thing that they have in common"
  },
  {
    "start": 1151.12,
    "end": 1152.38,
    "text": "before I describe the differences"
  },
  {
    "start": 1152.44,
    "end": 1154.02,
    "text": "is that basically fundamentally"
  },
  {
    "start": 1154.1,
    "end": 1154.5,
    "text": "they're both"
  },
  {
    "start": 1155.0,
    "end": 1157.6,
    "text": "about safeguarding human dignity."
  },
  {
    "start": 1158.86,
    "end": 1160.6,
    "text": "But IHL is a body of law"
  },
  {
    "start": 1161.34,
    "end": 1162.46,
    "text": "that applies specifically"
  },
  {
    "start": 1162.72,
    "end": 1163.92,
    "text": "in times of armed conflict."
  },
  {
    "start": 1164.96,
    "end": 1166.36,
    "text": "In fact, it has another name."
  },
  {
    "start": 1166.48,
    "end": 1172.84,
    "text": "So humanitarian actors speak about international humanitarian law because we want to emphasize the humanitarian purpose of the law."
  },
  {
    "start": 1173.48,
    "end": 1177.6,
    "text": "But military lawyers speaking about the same body of law will speak about the law of armed conflict or"
  },
  {
    "start": 1177.64,
    "end": 1178.34,
    "text": "the laws of war."
  },
  {
    "start": 1179.06,
    "end": 1183.6,
    "text": "And basically it's a body of law that regulates behavior in times of armed conflict"
  },
  {
    "start": 1184.56,
    "end": 1184.98,
    "text": "with the view"
  },
  {
    "start": 1185.12,
    "end": 1186.42,
    "text": "to minimize the human"
  },
  {
    "start": 1186.52,
    "end": 1186.9,
    "text": "suffering"
  },
  {
    "start": 1187.02,
    "end": 1188.7,
    "text": "that's caused in armed conflict."
  },
  {
    "start": 1188.96,
    "end": 1195.56,
    "text": "But it's a body of law that was created by states who certainly weren't willing to accept constraints that don't allow"
  },
  {
    "start": 1195.62,
    "end": 1196.56,
    "text": "them to pursue their"
  },
  {
    "start": 1196.7,
    "end": 1198.04,
    "text": "legitimate military objectives."
  },
  {
    "start": 1198.44,
    "end": 1200.02,
    "text": "So it's a very pragmatic body"
  },
  {
    "start": 1200.1,
    "end": 1201.78,
    "text": "of law that tries to create"
  },
  {
    "start": 1201.82,
    "end": 1207.4,
    "text": "a kind of balance between on the one side humanitarian considerations and on the other side military necessity."
  },
  {
    "start": 1208.18,
    "end": 1209.04,
    "text": "And a lot of the debate"
  },
  {
    "start": 1209.1,
    "end": 1209.76,
    "text": "about this body of"
  },
  {
    "start": 1209.86,
    "end": 1213.3,
    "text": "law is really about how you balance these two values."
  },
  {
    "start": 1213.9,
    "end": 1216.46,
    "text": "So what's supposed to be clear is that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1216.94,
    "end": 1217.88,
    "text": "when you cause harm"
  },
  {
    "start": 1218.06,
    "end": 1221.74,
    "text": "that doesn't serve a military need that goes beyond military necessity,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1221.84,
    "end": 1222.9,
    "text": "then that should be off limits."
  },
  {
    "start": 1224.02,
    "end": 1226.68,
    "text": "So harming civilians, for example, should be off limits."
  },
  {
    "start": 1227.8,
    "end": 1229.92,
    "text": "Destroying civilian property should be off limits."
  },
  {
    "start": 1229.96,
    "end": 1231.0,
    "text": "It doesn't serve a purpose."
  },
  {
    "start": 1231.06,
    "end": 1232.88,
    "text": "If you've captured someone, even an enemy"
  },
  {
    "start": 1233.02,
    "end": 1236.74,
    "text": "fighter who no longer poses a threat to you, you shouldn't harm them."
  },
  {
    "start": 1236.78,
    "end": 1237.72,
    "text": "You should treat them humanely."
  },
  {
    "start": 1237.8,
    "end": 1238.0,
    "text": "You can"
  },
  {
    "start": 1238.08,
    "end": 1238.38,
    "text": "give way"
  },
  {
    "start": 1238.46,
    "end": 1242.36,
    "text": "to humanitarian considerations because there's no military need to harm them."
  },
  {
    "start": 1243.38,
    "end": 1244.68,
    "text": "So that's very basically that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1244.78,
    "end": 1245.28,
    "text": "body of law."
  },
  {
    "start": 1245.48,
    "end": 1245.98,
    "text": "Human rights"
  },
  {
    "start": 1246.08,
    "end": 1249.32,
    "text": "law is a body of law that has a wider application."
  },
  {
    "start": 1249.4,
    "end": 1252.22,
    "text": "It applies in peace times and in times of armed conflict."
  },
  {
    "start": 1252.28,
    "end": 1257.52,
    "text": "And the question is how you apply and I mean, I think people are more familiar with human rights."
  },
  {
    "start": 1257.56,
    "end": 1264.72,
    "text": "So it's this notion that a state has certain obligations towards people under its control has to protect their life."
  },
  {
    "start": 1266.94,
    "end": 1270.86,
    "text": "Basically, they're human dignity and that unfolds into a series of different types of rights."
  },
  {
    "start": 1271.38,
    "end": 1272.06,
    "text": "The question is"
  },
  {
    "start": 1272.18,
    "end": 1273.74,
    "text": "how you respect human rights in"
  },
  {
    "start": 1273.84,
    "end": 1274.96,
    "text": "times of armed conflict."
  },
  {
    "start": 1275.12,
    "end": 1275.82,
    "text": "So you have these two"
  },
  {
    "start": 1275.86,
    "end": 1276.42,
    "text": "bodies of law."
  },
  {
    "start": 1278.22,
    "end": 1278.72,
    "text": "Some states,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1279.0,
    "end": 1283.22,
    "text": "unfortunately, Israel is among them, say human rights doesn't apply at all in times of armed conflict."
  },
  {
    "start": 1283.26,
    "end": 1284.12,
    "text": "The US is another."
  },
  {
    "start": 1285.98,
    "end": 1288.58,
    "text": "But in Europe, at least, the prevailing view,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1289.12,
    "end": 1290.24,
    "text": "and there's also jurisprudence"
  },
  {
    "start": 1290.28,
    "end": 1292.88,
    "text": "to support that, is that human rights continues to apply"
  },
  {
    "start": 1293.02,
    "end": 1293.78,
    "text": "alongside."
  },
  {
    "start": 1294.34,
    "end": 1295.2,
    "text": "IHL in times"
  },
  {
    "start": 1295.24,
    "end": 1296.9,
    "text": "of armed conflict, except"
  },
  {
    "start": 1297.54,
    "end": 1298.38,
    "text": "the way you interpret"
  },
  {
    "start": 1298.5,
    "end": 1301.44,
    "text": "human rights is influenced by the reality of armed conflict."
  },
  {
    "start": 1301.5,
    "end": 1302.94,
    "text": "So there's certain things you can expect the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1303.02,
    "end": 1306.64,
    "text": "state to do in peacetime that are not realistic to"
  },
  {
    "start": 1306.72,
    "end": 1308.2,
    "text": "expect in times of armed conflict."
  },
  {
    "start": 1308.28,
    "end": 1310.88,
    "text": "So you still have to respect the rights of life."
  },
  {
    "start": 1310.92,
    "end": 1313.7,
    "text": "You can't arbitrarily kill people and deprive them of their liberty."
  },
  {
    "start": 1314.36,
    "end": 1315.08,
    "text": "But in situations"
  },
  {
    "start": 1315.14,
    "end": 1317.38,
    "text": "of armed conflict, you interpret human"
  },
  {
    "start": 1317.46,
    "end": 1319.42,
    "text": "rights law in light of the more specific"
  },
  {
    "start": 1320.0,
    "end": 1320.76,
    "text": "rules that exist"
  },
  {
    "start": 1320.86,
    "end": 1321.7,
    "text": "in IHL,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1321.8,
    "end": 1322.36,
    "text": "the body of law"
  },
  {
    "start": 1322.44,
    "end": 1323.22,
    "text": "that's designed to."
  },
  {
    "start": 1323.26,
    "end": 1326.42,
    "text": "So It would mean that even while you respect human life,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1326.86,
    "end": 1327.54,
    "text": "there are certain people"
  },
  {
    "start": 1327.6,
    "end": 1330.54,
    "text": "you can intentionally kill, which would be an absolute taboo in peacetime."
  },
  {
    "start": 1330.98,
    "end": 1334.8,
    "text": "But enemy fighters, for example, are people that, in an armed conflict,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1335.4,
    "end": 1335.86,
    "text": "you can kill."
  },
  {
    "start": 1335.96,
    "end": 1336.1,
    "text": "That's"
  },
  {
    "start": 1336.14,
    "end": 1339.0,
    "text": "perhaps why the name humanitarian law is a bit questionable."
  },
  {
    "start": 1339.12,
    "end": 1344.84,
    "text": "It's a body of law that allows destroying certain objects and intentionally killing certain people."
  },
  {
    "start": 1345.62,
    "end": 1348.76,
    "text": "It's humanitarian because it doesn't allow you to kill everyone and destroy"
  },
  {
    "start": 1348.88,
    "end": 1349.3,
    "text": "everything"
  },
  {
    "start": 1349.52,
    "end": 1354.32,
    "text": "and the reason that it places constraints for humanitarian reasons on violence in in war."
  },
  {
    "start": 1355.96,
    "end": 1359.6,
    "text": "There were more elements in your in your question Should I should I know?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1359.84,
    "end": 1361.4,
    "text": "I mean that's exactly what I was getting at."
  },
  {
    "start": 1361.54,
    "end": 1369.34,
    "text": "so yeah, and then the next Part of this question is how does it apply specifically in the Israeli-Palestinian context?"
  },
  {
    "start": 1370.12,
    "end": 1375.0,
    "text": "I already hinted that human rights law is a topic of debate because Israel refutes"
  },
  {
    "start": 1375.06,
    "end": 1375.16,
    "text": "that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1375.2,
    "end": 1378.04,
    "text": "it's bound by human rights law."
  },
  {
    "start": 1378.68,
    "end": 1383.22,
    "text": "That's particularly problematic because Israel occupies the Palestinian territory."
  },
  {
    "start": 1383.42,
    "end": 1385.42,
    "text": "That's the consensus internationally."
  },
  {
    "start": 1385.48,
    "end": 1391.0,
    "text": "that's been the position that's been recently also stated by the International Court of Justice."
  },
  {
    "start": 1392.26,
    "end": 1395.76,
    "text": "That consensus internationally is questioned in Israel, but"
  },
  {
    "start": 1397.78,
    "end": 1398.58,
    "text": "when you have a situation"
  },
  {
    "start": 1398.64,
    "end": 1402.62,
    "text": "of occupation, international humanitarian law regulates the relationship between"
  },
  {
    "start": 1403.5,
    "end": 1405.08,
    "text": "the occupying power and the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1405.2,
    "end": 1406.08,
    "text": "local population."
  },
  {
    "start": 1406.7,
    "end": 1410.84,
    "text": "A situation of occupation, perhaps I should explain, is defined as a situation where"
  },
  {
    "start": 1410.9,
    "end": 1412.76,
    "text": "a state acquires control"
  },
  {
    "start": 1412.98,
    "end": 1413.18,
    "text": "over"
  },
  {
    "start": 1413.64,
    "end": 1417.48,
    "text": "territory that it doesn't have sovereign claim over in the context of an"
  },
  {
    "start": 1417.62,
    "end": 1418.56,
    "text": "armed conflict or at least"
  },
  {
    "start": 1418.62,
    "end": 1419.56,
    "text": "without the consent"
  },
  {
    "start": 1419.8,
    "end": 1419.9,
    "text": "of"
  },
  {
    "start": 1420.02,
    "end": 1420.94,
    "text": "the rightful sovereign."
  },
  {
    "start": 1422.28,
    "end": 1425.04,
    "text": "Israel has control over Palestinian territory"
  },
  {
    "start": 1425.64,
    "end": 1426.86,
    "text": "without the consent of the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1426.98,
    "end": 1427.28,
    "text": "sovereign,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1427.34,
    "end": 1428.68,
    "text": "which is the Palestinian people."
  },
  {
    "start": 1428.94,
    "end": 1429.88,
    "text": "Consensus now is that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1430.54,
    "end": 1432.02,
    "text": "the rightful sovereign is the Palestinian"
  },
  {
    "start": 1432.1,
    "end": 1436.24,
    "text": "people, and that triggers a set of obligations under the law of occupation."
  },
  {
    "start": 1436.44,
    "end": 1438.0,
    "text": "Traditionally, there's an understanding"
  },
  {
    "start": 1438.06,
    "end": 1438.22,
    "text": "that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1438.74,
    "end": 1443.94,
    "text": "human rights law is applying alongside the law of occupation, establishes important protections."
  },
  {
    "start": 1444.08,
    "end": 1445.24,
    "text": "Israel doesn't accept those."
  },
  {
    "start": 1445.84,
    "end": 1450.34,
    "text": "When it comes to the law of occupation itself, It has a very inconsistent"
  },
  {
    "start": 1450.42,
    "end": 1450.64,
    "text": "kind"
  },
  {
    "start": 1450.74,
    "end": 1451.78,
    "text": "of position."
  },
  {
    "start": 1452.22,
    "end": 1452.7,
    "text": "There's some"
  },
  {
    "start": 1452.92,
    "end": 1453.26,
    "text": "aspects"
  },
  {
    "start": 1453.32,
    "end": 1457.16,
    "text": "of the law of occupation that are kind of convenient for an occupying power."
  },
  {
    "start": 1457.3,
    "end": 1461.04,
    "text": "These were rules that were agreed upon, some of the rules of the law of occupation."
  },
  {
    "start": 1461.6,
    "end": 1465.48,
    "text": "In the nineteenth century in Europe, when great powers and"
  },
  {
    "start": 1465.54,
    "end": 1466.2,
    "text": "smaller states"
  },
  {
    "start": 1466.26,
    "end": 1472.46,
    "text": "kind of negotiated how to, it was quite frequent that you'd have, I don't know, little Belgium finding itself under the control of another state."
  },
  {
    "start": 1473.08,
    "end": 1475.5,
    "text": "I don't know why Belgium always is selected as the example."
  },
  {
    "start": 1475.56,
    "end": 1479.26,
    "text": "But so they had to regulate the relationships between them."
  },
  {
    "start": 1479.4,
    "end": 1479.96,
    "text": "And actually"
  },
  {
    "start": 1480.98,
    "end": 1481.04,
    "text": "the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1481.4,
    "end": 1488.04,
    "text": "great powers were able to negotiate it in such a way that they had quite extensive authority in the occupied territory."
  },
  {
    "start": 1488.22,
    "end": 1488.28,
    "text": "So"
  },
  {
    "start": 1488.92,
    "end": 1491.16,
    "text": "you're supposed to administer the occupied territory"
  },
  {
    "start": 1491.32,
    "end": 1491.8,
    "text": "in place"
  },
  {
    "start": 1492.14,
    "end": 1493.4,
    "text": "of the ousted sovereign."
  },
  {
    "start": 1494.3,
    "end": 1495.36,
    "text": "And that gives you a lot of authority."
  },
  {
    "start": 1495.4,
    "end": 1496.72,
    "text": "And that was quite convenient for Israel."
  },
  {
    "start": 1496.78,
    "end": 1500.98,
    "text": "It was quite happy to accept a legal regime that gives it all kinds of authority."
  },
  {
    "start": 1501.18,
    "end": 1501.96,
    "text": "So it relies on."
  },
  {
    "start": 1502.4,
    "end": 1508.3,
    "text": "that area of the law of occupation to say that it can create legislation in occupied territory."
  },
  {
    "start": 1508.4,
    "end": 1511.0,
    "text": "It can regulate life there and that includes"
  },
  {
    "start": 1511.14,
    "end": 1511.94,
    "text": "enforcing the law."
  },
  {
    "start": 1512.76,
    "end": 1517.86,
    "text": "But after the Second World War, there was a dramatic development in the law of occupation."
  },
  {
    "start": 1517.96,
    "end": 1524.78,
    "text": "In the wake of the really horrendous experience in occupied territory, particularly under Nazi Germany,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1526.28,
    "end": 1526.84,
    "text": "the law was"
  },
  {
    "start": 1526.92,
    "end": 1531.84,
    "text": "developed and there's a a new Geneva Convention that was added."
  },
  {
    "start": 1531.88,
    "end": 1532.26,
    "text": "There had been"
  },
  {
    "start": 1532.34,
    "end": 1532.88,
    "text": "three Geneva"
  },
  {
    "start": 1532.94,
    "end": 1533.32,
    "text": "Convention."
  },
  {
    "start": 1533.38,
    "end": 1537.04,
    "text": "There was a fourth one designed to protect civilians and particular civilians in occupied"
  },
  {
    "start": 1537.08,
    "end": 1537.42,
    "text": "territory."
  },
  {
    "start": 1538.12,
    "end": 1541.56,
    "text": "There, the focus isn't so much on the interests of the sovereign and the ousted sovereign."
  },
  {
    "start": 1541.88,
    "end": 1544.64,
    "text": "The focus was on protecting the people who find themselves suddenly"
  },
  {
    "start": 1545.36,
    "end": 1545.96,
    "text": "under the control"
  },
  {
    "start": 1546.02,
    "end": 1546.96,
    "text": "of this alien power."
  },
  {
    "start": 1547.6,
    "end": 1551.16,
    "text": "So those rules establish all kinds of limitations on what an occupying power can do."
  },
  {
    "start": 1551.46,
    "end": 1552.78,
    "text": "Those are less convenient for Israel."
  },
  {
    "start": 1552.88,
    "end": 1553.92,
    "text": "For example, it says that you"
  },
  {
    "start": 1554.0,
    "end": 1554.64,
    "text": "can't move your"
  },
  {
    "start": 1554.76,
    "end": 1556.52,
    "text": "own population into the occupied"
  },
  {
    "start": 1556.58,
    "end": 1556.92,
    "text": "territory."
  },
  {
    "start": 1557.54,
    "end": 1560.12,
    "text": "That goes against Israel's settlement enterprise."
  },
  {
    "start": 1560.18,
    "end": 1562.5,
    "text": "You're not supposed to move the people in the occupied territory."
  },
  {
    "start": 1562.54,
    "end": 1565.64,
    "text": "You can't transfer them forcibly from one place or another."
  },
  {
    "start": 1565.72,
    "end": 1566.94,
    "text": "You certainly can't deport them."
  },
  {
    "start": 1567.58,
    "end": 1570.96,
    "text": "All that runs very much against Israeli policy in the occupied territory."
  },
  {
    "start": 1571.1,
    "end": 1572.66,
    "text": "You're not supposed to annex any of the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1572.74,
    "end": 1573.1,
    "text": "territory."
  },
  {
    "start": 1573.56,
    "end": 1576.22,
    "text": "So there's been all kinds of attempts to say those rules don't"
  },
  {
    "start": 1576.3,
    "end": 1576.64,
    "text": "apply."
  },
  {
    "start": 1577.42,
    "end": 1581.66,
    "text": "For example, Israel has maintained that the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1582.7,
    "end": 1583.3,
    "text": "territory wasn't"
  },
  {
    "start": 1583.4,
    "end": 1584.88,
    "text": "occupied from a rightful sovereign."
  },
  {
    "start": 1584.92,
    "end": 1585.54,
    "text": "They don't accept."
  },
  {
    "start": 1586.06,
    "end": 1590.28,
    "text": "the territory, both in the case of Gaza and the West Bank was taken from entities that didn't have"
  },
  {
    "start": 1590.36,
    "end": 1590.64,
    "text": "sovereign"
  },
  {
    "start": 1590.72,
    "end": 1591.36,
    "text": "claim over it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1591.5,
    "end": 1592.0,
    "text": "Gaza was"
  },
  {
    "start": 1592.22,
    "end": 1592.66,
    "text": "controlled"
  },
  {
    "start": 1593.18,
    "end": 1594.8,
    "text": "by Egypt, which isn't a sovereign."
  },
  {
    "start": 1594.92,
    "end": 1596.36,
    "text": "The West Bank was controlled by Jordan,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1596.42,
    "end": 1596.8,
    "text": "which wasn't"
  },
  {
    "start": 1596.86,
    "end": 1598.48,
    "text": "recognized by most states as a sovereign."
  },
  {
    "start": 1599.1,
    "end": 1602.22,
    "text": "So Israel says, well, we didn't occupy it from another state."
  },
  {
    "start": 1602.26,
    "end": 1603.74,
    "text": "And so we're not bound by these"
  },
  {
    "start": 1603.82,
    "end": 1604.5,
    "text": "obligations."
  },
  {
    "start": 1605.68,
    "end": 1610.3,
    "text": "The international community has said there's a people there, they're recognized by us as a sovereign people."
  },
  {
    "start": 1610.6,
    "end": 1612.34,
    "text": "It's not your territory for sure, so you"
  },
  {
    "start": 1612.48,
    "end": 1613.92,
    "text": "are bound by these rules."
  },
  {
    "start": 1614.36,
    "end": 1619.6,
    "text": "So what Israel has tried to do is to say the Foshtian even convention isn't applicable because it's conditioned on"
  },
  {
    "start": 1620.2,
    "end": 1621.18,
    "text": "the territory being taken"
  },
  {
    "start": 1621.24,
    "end": 1622.16,
    "text": "from a rightful sovereign."
  },
  {
    "start": 1622.88,
    "end": 1623.82,
    "text": "the older rules, these"
  },
  {
    "start": 1623.88,
    "end": 1627.9,
    "text": "Hague regulations from the nineteenth century to quite convenient, they apply through customary law."
  },
  {
    "start": 1628.08,
    "end": 1628.78,
    "text": "That's been the approach."
  },
  {
    "start": 1629.76,
    "end": 1630.98,
    "text": "It's a very much a cherry-pricking"
  },
  {
    "start": 1631.04,
    "end": 1631.44,
    "text": "approach,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1631.82,
    "end": 1632.84,
    "text": "which is a constant."
  },
  {
    "start": 1632.9,
    "end": 1633.88,
    "text": "That's a constant, actually."
  },
  {
    "start": 1633.92,
    "end": 1643.32,
    "text": "That's one of the ways that Israel has managed to maintain that it's respecting the law while actually violating it, is to read the law in this cherry-pricking"
  },
  {
    "start": 1643.5,
    "end": 1643.72,
    "text": "manner."
  },
  {
    "start": 1643.76,
    "end": 1647.7,
    "text": "There are many other techniques that they apply, but that's been one of them."
  },
  {
    "start": 1648.38,
    "end": 1649.24,
    "text": "Now, you were asking"
  },
  {
    "start": 1649.3,
    "end": 1650.22,
    "text": "also about the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1651.26,
    "end": 1652.36,
    "text": "these key provisions"
  },
  {
    "start": 1652.56,
    "end": 1655.4,
    "text": "of international humanitarian law, the additional protocols."
  },
  {
    "start": 1655.5,
    "end": 1655.88,
    "text": "Those are"
  },
  {
    "start": 1656.48,
    "end": 1658.02,
    "text": "the place where you find the rules that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1658.14,
    "end": 1662.74,
    "text": "regulate behavior in hostilities when there's fighting, like the fighting that we're seeing in Gaza now."
  },
  {
    "start": 1663.6,
    "end": 1670.96,
    "text": "And those have been codified in an additional protocol to the Geneva Conventions from the nineteen seventies, which Israel didn't sign up to."
  },
  {
    "start": 1672.68,
    "end": 1675.96,
    "text": "But even Israel accepts that some of the basic"
  },
  {
    "start": 1676.06,
    "end": 1677.18,
    "text": "principles that are"
  },
  {
    "start": 1677.24,
    "end": 1682.0,
    "text": "established there do apply as a matter of what we call customary international law."
  },
  {
    "start": 1682.18,
    "end": 1690.52,
    "text": "So for example, the most basic principle of hostilities, the rules governing hostilities, is that you're not supposed to distinguish between civilians."
  },
  {
    "start": 1690.98,
    "end": 1691.98,
    "text": "and combatants"
  },
  {
    "start": 1692.08,
    "end": 1695.38,
    "text": "or fighters and between civilian objects and military objectives and you're only"
  },
  {
    "start": 1695.46,
    "end": 1696.86,
    "text": "allowed to direct your fire"
  },
  {
    "start": 1697.16,
    "end": 1699.62,
    "text": "at military objectives at fighters and military objects."
  },
  {
    "start": 1699.68,
    "end": 1699.98,
    "text": "you can't"
  },
  {
    "start": 1700.52,
    "end": 1701.06,
    "text": "intentionally"
  },
  {
    "start": 1701.14,
    "end": 1702.94,
    "text": "target civilians and civilian objects."
  },
  {
    "start": 1703.36,
    "end": 1705.28,
    "text": "that's customary law in israel accepts that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1705.82,
    "end": 1706.64,
    "text": "there's another rule"
  },
  {
    "start": 1706.76,
    "end": 1710.14,
    "text": "called the rule of the principle of proportionality which says basically."
  },
  {
    "start": 1710.78,
    "end": 1711.48,
    "text": "that even when you're"
  },
  {
    "start": 1711.52,
    "end": 1711.94,
    "text": "attacking"
  },
  {
    "start": 1712.0,
    "end": 1712.54,
    "text": "a legitimate"
  },
  {
    "start": 1712.58,
    "end": 1714.78,
    "text": "target, you have to consider the harm"
  },
  {
    "start": 1714.82,
    "end": 1718.3,
    "text": "that you're going to cause to civilians and civilian objects around that target."
  },
  {
    "start": 1718.38,
    "end": 1719.64,
    "text": "And if the harm that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1719.72,
    "end": 1720.28,
    "text": "you think you're going"
  },
  {
    "start": 1720.32,
    "end": 1721.88,
    "text": "to cause is excessive in relation"
  },
  {
    "start": 1721.94,
    "end": 1722.4,
    "text": "to the military"
  },
  {
    "start": 1722.48,
    "end": 1723.04,
    "text": "advantage"
  },
  {
    "start": 1723.14,
    "end": 1726.78,
    "text": "that you expect that you're going to gain, then you have to avoid the attack."
  },
  {
    "start": 1726.84,
    "end": 1728.54,
    "text": "There are also all kinds of precautions"
  },
  {
    "start": 1728.6,
    "end": 1729.16,
    "text": "that you have to take."
  },
  {
    "start": 1730.04,
    "end": 1731.46,
    "text": "Each and every time."
  },
  {
    "start": 1732.02,
    "end": 1732.5,
    "text": "Every single"
  },
  {
    "start": 1732.82,
    "end": 1733.04,
    "text": "time."
  },
  {
    "start": 1733.38,
    "end": 1736.32,
    "text": "And I mean, these rules are crucial for a context like"
  },
  {
    "start": 1736.36,
    "end": 1736.62,
    "text": "Gaza."
  },
  {
    "start": 1736.72,
    "end": 1740.26,
    "text": "Unfortunately, we have the impression that they've been"
  },
  {
    "start": 1740.72,
    "end": 1741.36,
    "text": "consistently"
  },
  {
    "start": 1741.72,
    "end": 1743.64,
    "text": "violated with tragic consequences."
  },
  {
    "start": 1747.04,
    "end": 1760.08,
    "text": "And they've been violated also because of a different kind of interpretation and understanding of the law from the side of Israeli policymakers or decision makers in that sense."
  },
  {
    "start": 1760.44,
    "end": 1764.34,
    "text": "Well, actually, so that was true in previous rounds of hostilities."
  },
  {
    "start": 1764.46,
    "end": 1769.84,
    "text": "Israel was quite sophisticated in its engagement with international humanitarian law."
  },
  {
    "start": 1770.68,
    "end": 1776.66,
    "text": "coming up with all these arguments and loopholes to explain why what seemed to everyone like a violation was in fact okay."
  },
  {
    "start": 1777.96,
    "end": 1779.28,
    "text": "That still happens with some"
  },
  {
    "start": 1780.0,
    "end": 1782.12,
    "text": "kind of state officials, the lawyers working"
  },
  {
    "start": 1782.16,
    "end": 1784.42,
    "text": "for the state when they have to defend the position that the"
  },
  {
    "start": 1784.54,
    "end": 1785.24,
    "text": "state has taken."
  },
  {
    "start": 1785.78,
    "end": 1788.74,
    "text": "But you mentioned policymakers and politicians, there we're seeing"
  },
  {
    "start": 1789.08,
    "end": 1790.88,
    "text": "an even more troubling kind of approach"
  },
  {
    "start": 1790.96,
    "end": 1792.04,
    "text": "than we had seen before"
  },
  {
    "start": 1792.6,
    "end": 1794.96,
    "text": "taking hold more and more and that is complete disregard"
  },
  {
    "start": 1795.02,
    "end": 1795.4,
    "text": "for the law."
  },
  {
    "start": 1796.26,
    "end": 1797.78,
    "text": "So, I mean, the impression was that they weren't."
  },
  {
    "start": 1798.12,
    "end": 1803.34,
    "text": "many Israeli officials and leaders were not particularly committed to international law,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1803.44,
    "end": 1804.1,
    "text": "to these rules"
  },
  {
    "start": 1804.16,
    "end": 1805.68,
    "text": "of international law, even beforehand."
  },
  {
    "start": 1805.72,
    "end": 1805.86,
    "text": "But at"
  },
  {
    "start": 1805.92,
    "end": 1809.86,
    "text": "least they, maybe it wasn't at least, but they paid some kind of lip service"
  },
  {
    "start": 1809.92,
    "end": 1811.22,
    "text": "towards these rules in the past."
  },
  {
    "start": 1811.32,
    "end": 1811.54,
    "text": "Now,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1812.98,
    "end": 1813.28,
    "text": "I think"
  },
  {
    "start": 1814.08,
    "end": 1815.8,
    "text": "with support from"
  },
  {
    "start": 1816.1,
    "end": 1818.18,
    "text": "the attitude that we see coming from"
  },
  {
    "start": 1818.22,
    "end": 1819.04,
    "text": "the White House now,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1819.62,
    "end": 1822.14,
    "text": "there's a dismissive approach towards international law."
  },
  {
    "start": 1822.24,
    "end": 1825.36,
    "text": "So sometimes openly antagonistic towards it."
  },
  {
    "start": 1826.16,
    "end": 1827.12,
    "text": "it's as though this"
  },
  {
    "start": 1827.24,
    "end": 1827.4,
    "text": "law"
  },
  {
    "start": 1827.48,
    "end": 1828.7,
    "text": "is not something that we have to bother"
  },
  {
    "start": 1828.78,
    "end": 1829.02,
    "text": "about."
  },
  {
    "start": 1829.1,
    "end": 1830.94,
    "text": "So you see all kinds of statements by"
  },
  {
    "start": 1831.8,
    "end": 1832.86,
    "text": "including people like the Minister"
  },
  {
    "start": 1832.94,
    "end": 1833.54,
    "text": "of Defense"
  },
  {
    "start": 1834.46,
    "end": 1837.88,
    "text": "calling for actions in Gaza that you can't possibly reconcile with the law."
  },
  {
    "start": 1838.44,
    "end": 1842.14,
    "text": "So that's at the kind of political level, a really troubling development that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1842.18,
    "end": 1843.0,
    "text": "we're seeing both"
  },
  {
    "start": 1843.54,
    "end": 1845.88,
    "text": "in the Israeli-Palestinian context and I would"
  },
  {
    "start": 1845.96,
    "end": 1846.12,
    "text": "say"
  },
  {
    "start": 1846.78,
    "end": 1848.38,
    "text": "globally increasing this kind of"
  },
  {
    "start": 1849.86,
    "end": 1850.32,
    "text": "dismissive"
  },
  {
    "start": 1850.42,
    "end": 1851.86,
    "text": "attitude, defiance of the law."
  },
  {
    "start": 1852.1,
    "end": 1855.54,
    "text": "But then Israel does have to, it's not the US, it does sometimes have to"
  },
  {
    "start": 1855.62,
    "end": 1856.4,
    "text": "explain itself."
  },
  {
    "start": 1857.32,
    "end": 1858.16,
    "text": "And then, as you"
  },
  {
    "start": 1858.2,
    "end": 1861.0,
    "text": "were suggesting, there are all these efforts"
  },
  {
    "start": 1861.08,
    "end": 1861.72,
    "text": "to kind of twist"
  },
  {
    "start": 1861.78,
    "end": 1862.5,
    "text": "and turn the law."
  },
  {
    "start": 1863.06,
    "end": 1866.12,
    "text": "So there are a few different kinds of techniques that we see."
  },
  {
    "start": 1866.26,
    "end": 1874.38,
    "text": "I mentioned in the beginning that international humanitarian law is about this kind of balancing act between military necessity and humanity."
  },
  {
    "start": 1874.58,
    "end": 1874.64,
    "text": "So"
  },
  {
    "start": 1875.2,
    "end": 1875.84,
    "text": "what they often do"
  },
  {
    "start": 1876.16,
    "end": 1876.8,
    "text": "is just place"
  },
  {
    "start": 1877.28,
    "end": 1878.1,
    "text": "more emphasis"
  },
  {
    "start": 1878.22,
    "end": 1882.48,
    "text": "on military necessity and kind of ignore the humanitarian considerations."
  },
  {
    "start": 1882.58,
    "end": 1886.76,
    "text": "and sometimes the law actually... is designed in a way that actually allows"
  },
  {
    "start": 1886.8,
    "end": 1887.1,
    "text": "states"
  },
  {
    "start": 1887.94,
    "end": 1893.14,
    "text": "to abuse, I would say, the law, so a principle like the principle of proportionality that I was describing before."
  },
  {
    "start": 1893.18,
    "end": 1893.9,
    "text": "It's really difficult"
  },
  {
    "start": 1893.96,
    "end": 1894.74,
    "text": "to implement that."
  },
  {
    "start": 1895.34,
    "end": 1896.38,
    "text": "It's hard to contest"
  },
  {
    "start": 1896.52,
    "end": 1897.74,
    "text": "a state that claims that"
  },
  {
    "start": 1898.48,
    "end": 1900.8,
    "text": "it had this very weighty military advantage"
  },
  {
    "start": 1900.86,
    "end": 1902.1,
    "text": "that it was seeking to pursue,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1902.26,
    "end": 1903.04,
    "text": "and it didn't actually"
  },
  {
    "start": 1903.12,
    "end": 1904.2,
    "text": "foresee that it would cause"
  },
  {
    "start": 1904.26,
    "end": 1905.18,
    "text": "so much harm."
  },
  {
    "start": 1905.26,
    "end": 1905.6,
    "text": "Especially"
  },
  {
    "start": 1906.16,
    "end": 1907.0,
    "text": "in the fog of war."
  },
  {
    "start": 1907.1,
    "end": 1907.4,
    "text": "In the fog"
  },
  {
    "start": 1907.46,
    "end": 1907.7,
    "text": "of war,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1907.82,
    "end": 1908.14,
    "text": "exactly."
  },
  {
    "start": 1908.88,
    "end": 1909.06,
    "text": "I mean,"
  },
  {
    "start": 1909.84,
    "end": 1910.4,
    "text": "at some point"
  },
  {
    "start": 1910.58,
    "end": 1911.64,
    "text": "in Gaza, that became"
  },
  {
    "start": 1912.12,
    "end": 1912.66,
    "text": "less and less"
  },
  {
    "start": 1912.98,
    "end": 1913.36,
    "text": "plausible."
  },
  {
    "start": 1913.42,
    "end": 1921.86,
    "text": "And eventually when you had entire cities that were wiped out, you know, the idea that this was somehow proportionate became increasingly preposterous."
  },
  {
    "start": 1921.92,
    "end": 1923.22,
    "text": "But that was one area."
  },
  {
    "start": 1923.3,
    "end": 1923.74,
    "text": "There have been"
  },
  {
    "start": 1923.8,
    "end": 1924.22,
    "text": "these kinds"
  },
  {
    "start": 1924.26,
    "end": 1925.6,
    "text": "of arguments, but they've actually been"
  },
  {
    "start": 1926.76,
    "end": 1927.86,
    "text": "in a way more sinister"
  },
  {
    "start": 1928.32,
    "end": 1930.92,
    "text": "types of arguments, perhaps more surprising, where"
  },
  {
    "start": 1931.7,
    "end": 1932.12,
    "text": "Israel has"
  },
  {
    "start": 1932.18,
    "end": 1935.06,
    "text": "relied on humanitarian logic to justify what it's doing."
  },
  {
    "start": 1935.22,
    "end": 1935.54,
    "text": "So some of"
  },
  {
    "start": 1935.58,
    "end": 1936.52,
    "text": "the most harmful"
  },
  {
    "start": 1937.1,
    "end": 1938.9,
    "text": "practices that we're seeing in Gaza now"
  },
  {
    "start": 1939.54,
    "end": 1941.7,
    "text": "have been defended or presented"
  },
  {
    "start": 1941.76,
    "end": 1943.74,
    "text": "as though they were humanitarian measures."
  },
  {
    "start": 1943.98,
    "end": 1946.08,
    "text": "So to explain, we've seen"
  },
  {
    "start": 1946.66,
    "end": 1948.1,
    "text": "most of the population"
  },
  {
    "start": 1948.18,
    "end": 1948.56,
    "text": "in Gaza"
  },
  {
    "start": 1948.68,
    "end": 1949.38,
    "text": "displaced now."
  },
  {
    "start": 1949.74,
    "end": 1958.34,
    "text": "So the population of above two million people, at least ninety percent of that population, is understood to have been displaced in many cases many times over."
  },
  {
    "start": 1958.94,
    "end": 1960.12,
    "text": "And the way they're displaced"
  },
  {
    "start": 1960.22,
    "end": 1962.92,
    "text": "is, at least in many cases, is that Israel will"
  },
  {
    "start": 1963.06,
    "end": 1965.36,
    "text": "instruct people or direct people"
  },
  {
    "start": 1965.44,
    "end": 1967.34,
    "text": "to leave an area in advance of an attack."
  },
  {
    "start": 1967.62,
    "end": 1970.6,
    "text": "This is supposedly done to protect them from an attack."
  },
  {
    "start": 1971.34,
    "end": 1972.96,
    "text": "And they're doing it as we're speaking."
  },
  {
    "start": 1973.52,
    "end": 1973.98,
    "text": "Absolutely."
  },
  {
    "start": 1974.08,
    "end": 1976.46,
    "text": "Now we're witnessing that happening in Gaza City."
  },
  {
    "start": 1977.46,
    "end": 1980.18,
    "text": "The people that have remained or returned to Gaza City are now being"
  },
  {
    "start": 1980.24,
    "end": 1980.74,
    "text": "instructed"
  },
  {
    "start": 1980.84,
    "end": 1981.28,
    "text": "to leave."
  },
  {
    "start": 1983.74,
    "end": 1985.66,
    "text": "The other sinister side of this is that Israel seems to"
  },
  {
    "start": 1985.7,
    "end": 1986.08,
    "text": "presume"
  },
  {
    "start": 1986.12,
    "end": 1986.6,
    "text": "that after"
  },
  {
    "start": 1986.66,
    "end": 1987.36,
    "text": "it's told people"
  },
  {
    "start": 1987.42,
    "end": 1994.3,
    "text": "to leave, it can just assume that everybody who remains is a fighter and can just attack indiscriminately, which is very much at odds with the law."
  },
  {
    "start": 1994.68,
    "end": 2000.26,
    "text": "But under the cover of this kind of humanitarian logic, we've seen displacement"
  },
  {
    "start": 2000.34,
    "end": 2000.5,
    "text": "being"
  },
  {
    "start": 2000.56,
    "end": 2001.18,
    "text": "justified."
  },
  {
    "start": 2001.38,
    "end": 2001.6,
    "text": "And"
  },
  {
    "start": 2002.48,
    "end": 2003.1,
    "text": "there's a concern"
  },
  {
    "start": 2003.2,
    "end": 2006.44,
    "text": "also that people are being concentrated in a very small slither of Gaza."
  },
  {
    "start": 2006.6,
    "end": 2008.06,
    "text": "At the moment, Palestinians"
  },
  {
    "start": 2008.2,
    "end": 2008.34,
    "text": "are"
  },
  {
    "start": 2009.48,
    "end": 2010.02,
    "text": "confined."
  },
  {
    "start": 2010.64,
    "end": 2012.7,
    "text": "to less than fifteen percent of the"
  },
  {
    "start": 2012.78,
    "end": 2013.14,
    "text": "territory."
  },
  {
    "start": 2013.28,
    "end": 2013.58,
    "text": "The rest"
  },
  {
    "start": 2013.62,
    "end": 2018.36,
    "text": "is all off limits and you risk your life if you enter that as a Palestinian."
  },
  {
    "start": 2019.68,
    "end": 2021.88,
    "text": "There have been Israeli politicians who have"
  },
  {
    "start": 2021.92,
    "end": 2022.64,
    "text": "been quite open,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2022.74,
    "end": 2025.44,
    "text": "again, using humanitarian language about the desire"
  },
  {
    "start": 2025.48,
    "end": 2026.16,
    "text": "to concentrate"
  },
  {
    "start": 2026.2,
    "end": 2029.16,
    "text": "the population in these tight, kind of confined"
  },
  {
    "start": 2029.22,
    "end": 2029.52,
    "text": "zones."
  },
  {
    "start": 2030.38,
    "end": 2034.32,
    "text": "So the Minister of Defence spoke about this vision of establishing a humanitarian"
  },
  {
    "start": 2034.44,
    "end": 2035.3,
    "text": "city, as he called"
  },
  {
    "start": 2035.36,
    "end": 2035.44,
    "text": "it."
  },
  {
    "start": 2036.62,
    "end": 2039.96,
    "text": "Others, including a former Israeli Prime Minister, Erhard Olmoud, who was actually from the"
  },
  {
    "start": 2040.1,
    "end": 2040.34,
    "text": "right,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2041.04,
    "end": 2041.7,
    "text": "well, the old right."
  },
  {
    "start": 2042.94,
    "end": 2045.06,
    "text": "said that this is a concentration camp, quite rightly."
  },
  {
    "start": 2045.26,
    "end": 2049.679,
    "text": "And the idea would be to, on the ruins of what used to be Rafa, the city that's been"
  },
  {
    "start": 2049.78,
    "end": 2050.28,
    "text": "flattened"
  },
  {
    "start": 2050.86,
    "end": 2057.46,
    "text": "to create a so-called city, in effect a mega kind of concentration camp for all of what remains"
  },
  {
    "start": 2057.52,
    "end": 2057.56,
    "text": "of"
  },
  {
    "start": 2057.62,
    "end": 2060.76,
    "text": "the two million or so people that live in Gaza."
  },
  {
    "start": 2061.46,
    "end": 2066.239,
    "text": "And they've been quite open about the fact that this is what the Minister of Defense said, that people won't be"
  },
  {
    "start": 2066.32,
    "end": 2068.82,
    "text": "allowed to leave that space after they voluntarily"
  },
  {
    "start": 2069.02,
    "end": 2069.42,
    "text": "enter it."
  },
  {
    "start": 2070.46,
    "end": 2071.88,
    "text": "The voluntary is of course his language."
  },
  {
    "start": 2072.54,
    "end": 2075.44,
    "text": "And the only way to leave would be to leave"
  },
  {
    "start": 2075.8,
    "end": 2076.6,
    "text": "exile, basically,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2076.679,
    "end": 2077.32,
    "text": "to leave Gaza."
  },
  {
    "start": 2077.48,
    "end": 2088.92,
    "text": "So it seems very much that all of this, under the guise of humanitarian gestures, so to speak, to protect people, there's a plan to drive them out of Gaza."
  },
  {
    "start": 2089.58,
    "end": 2097.34,
    "text": "I mean, basically, the choice that people will have if this vision is realized, and it looks like they're trying to realize it, is that they can be in a concentration camp"
  },
  {
    "start": 2097.48,
    "end": 2098.1,
    "text": "in this space."
  },
  {
    "start": 2099.54,
    "end": 2100.56,
    "text": "They won't be allowed to leave."
  },
  {
    "start": 2101.76,
    "end": 2104.66,
    "text": "The conditions there are likely to be very dire."
  },
  {
    "start": 2104.78,
    "end": 2105.04,
    "text": "So we're"
  },
  {
    "start": 2105.12,
    "end": 2106.92,
    "text": "seeing people starving in"
  },
  {
    "start": 2107.0,
    "end": 2107.22,
    "text": "Gaza."
  },
  {
    "start": 2107.26,
    "end": 2108.74,
    "text": "There's a famine in Gaza at the moment."
  },
  {
    "start": 2109.42,
    "end": 2110.08,
    "text": "There's concern"
  },
  {
    "start": 2110.14,
    "end": 2112.88,
    "text": "that this humanitarian city won't be that humanitarian."
  },
  {
    "start": 2113.0,
    "end": 2118.18,
    "text": "If they leave that city, they'll be presumed to be a Hamas fighter, and their lives will probably be quite short."
  },
  {
    "start": 2118.92,
    "end": 2119.24,
    "text": "So they'll have"
  },
  {
    "start": 2119.28,
    "end": 2122.98,
    "text": "a choice between a quick death, a kind of slow death in a concentration camp, or"
  },
  {
    "start": 2124.74,
    "end": 2125.06,
    "text": "exile."
  },
  {
    "start": 2127.3,
    "end": 2127.78,
    "text": "And to use"
  },
  {
    "start": 2127.84,
    "end": 2142.92,
    "text": "humanitarian logic to kind of present this as something that's lawful and acceptable is really turning the law on its head completely, turning humanitarian law on its head into a kind of, so a body of law that we see as a kind"
  },
  {
    "start": 2142.96,
    "end": 2144.58,
    "text": "of shield that's supposed to protect people"
  },
  {
    "start": 2144.76,
    "end": 2145.96,
    "text": "is being turned into"
  },
  {
    "start": 2146.04,
    "end": 2146.5,
    "text": "a sword."
  },
  {
    "start": 2147.02,
    "end": 2147.96,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 2153.58,
    "end": 2157.68,
    "text": "Yeah, it's difficult to grasp everything."
  },
  {
    "start": 2159.54,
    "end": 2195.14,
    "text": "I think what is particularly depressing also, especially as a lawyer, since I'm a lawyer myself and I've also studied international humanitarian law, is to see how we can also witness this or similar narratives and ways of argumenting in Europe when it comes to when we talk about upholding the rule of law and we talk about a rule-based order that, you know, actually was based or started off on the ruins of World War Two."
  },
  {
    "start": 2195.6,
    "end": 2196.5,
    "text": "We're based in Berlin."
  },
  {
    "start": 2196.58,
    "end": 2197.48,
    "text": "We're based in Germany."
  },
  {
    "start": 2197.86,
    "end": 2200.62,
    "text": "You know, we, we, we've witnessed the Nurembic trials here."
  },
  {
    "start": 2201.18,
    "end": 2206.6,
    "text": "And it's, um, it's, uh, it's, yeah, they're, they're very scary developments."
  },
  {
    "start": 2206.68,
    "end": 2215.52,
    "text": "And, um, I wonder if you can speak about how you view also the European positioning from an Israeli perspective."
  },
  {
    "start": 2215.64,
    "end": 2216.12,
    "text": "And yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 2216.56,
    "end": 2217.14,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 2217.6,
    "end": 2217.68,
    "text": "So."
  },
  {
    "start": 2218.34,
    "end": 2221.94,
    "text": "I mean, as I said, we place a lot of hope as a humanitarian organization"
  },
  {
    "start": 2222.06,
    "end": 2222.52,
    "text": "on Europe."
  },
  {
    "start": 2222.56,
    "end": 2222.96,
    "text": "The US,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2223.02,
    "end": 2228.82,
    "text": "which has most influence on Israel, is not an actor that we expect much from at the moment."
  },
  {
    "start": 2229.4,
    "end": 2234.78,
    "text": "If anything, it just encourages unlawful practices under this administration."
  },
  {
    "start": 2235.6,
    "end": 2237.34,
    "text": "So Europe is like the place you turn to."
  },
  {
    "start": 2238.06,
    "end": 2243.86,
    "text": "There is this professed commitment to rule-based international order."
  },
  {
    "start": 2245.02,
    "end": 2250.52,
    "text": "The values that underpin international humanitarian law, international law more widely"
  },
  {
    "start": 2250.66,
    "end": 2251.18,
    "text": "are values"
  },
  {
    "start": 2251.24,
    "end": 2253.84,
    "text": "that Europe is formally committed to human rights."
  },
  {
    "start": 2254.42,
    "end": 2257.78,
    "text": "There's a strong commitment to these values, to the rule of law."
  },
  {
    "start": 2257.86,
    "end": 2261.62,
    "text": "There's also an interest actually in preserving these because they're part of the protection against"
  },
  {
    "start": 2261.74,
    "end": 2262.52,
    "text": "acts of aggression,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2262.76,
    "end": 2266.36,
    "text": "like Russia deciding that it wants to invade a neighboring European"
  },
  {
    "start": 2266.46,
    "end": 2266.72,
    "text": "state."
  },
  {
    "start": 2267.44,
    "end": 2268.4,
    "text": "And we've seen Europe"
  },
  {
    "start": 2269.06,
    "end": 2270.9,
    "text": "speak in the language of international law"
  },
  {
    "start": 2271.16,
    "end": 2271.8,
    "text": "to protest"
  },
  {
    "start": 2271.9,
    "end": 2277.34,
    "text": "against abuses, such as the ones that Putin's Russia has committed in the"
  },
  {
    "start": 2277.46,
    "end": 2277.84,
    "text": "Ukraine."
  },
  {
    "start": 2278.36,
    "end": 2278.44,
    "text": "So"
  },
  {
    "start": 2278.72,
    "end": 2279.64,
    "text": "there was an expectation"
  },
  {
    "start": 2279.72,
    "end": 2281.0,
    "text": "for consistency and"
  },
  {
    "start": 2281.84,
    "end": 2282.36,
    "text": "for European"
  },
  {
    "start": 2282.46,
    "end": 2282.74,
    "text": "states"
  },
  {
    "start": 2283.4,
    "end": 2283.46,
    "text": "to"
  },
  {
    "start": 2285.1,
    "end": 2285.44,
    "text": "defend"
  },
  {
    "start": 2285.6,
    "end": 2286.78,
    "text": "the rule of international law, to"
  },
  {
    "start": 2286.84,
    "end": 2287.74,
    "text": "defend these values."
  },
  {
    "start": 2288.48,
    "end": 2289.5,
    "text": "But I mean, we're not naive."
  },
  {
    "start": 2289.56,
    "end": 2291.2,
    "text": "We also understand the complexities"
  },
  {
    "start": 2291.4,
    "end": 2294.6,
    "text": "about political complexities when it comes to Israel."
  },
  {
    "start": 2295.06,
    "end": 2297.82,
    "text": "For Germany, they're more pronounced, I think, than any other actor."
  },
  {
    "start": 2298.8,
    "end": 2299.06,
    "text": "Actually,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2299.22,
    "end": 2302.88,
    "text": "in a way, in two ways, because I think Germany, the sort of post-Second World War, Germany"
  },
  {
    "start": 2303.48,
    "end": 2304.1,
    "text": "has the strong"
  },
  {
    "start": 2304.16,
    "end": 2309.12,
    "text": "commitment to the rule of international law to these values and also a strong commitment to Israel."
  },
  {
    "start": 2309.34,
    "end": 2311.64,
    "text": "And what we're seeing now is a situation where those"
  },
  {
    "start": 2312.32,
    "end": 2312.9,
    "text": "are clashing."
  },
  {
    "start": 2313.68,
    "end": 2315.98,
    "text": "And you have to decide how you manage that."
  },
  {
    "start": 2316.08,
    "end": 2317.1,
    "text": "From my perspective, actually,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2317.22,
    "end": 2317.9,
    "text": "as an Israeli,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2320.74,
    "end": 2322.38,
    "text": "being a two-friend to Israel"
  },
  {
    "start": 2322.58,
    "end": 2325.18,
    "text": "would mean insisting that it adheres to these values."
  },
  {
    "start": 2326.74,
    "end": 2327.34,
    "text": "Take the approach"
  },
  {
    "start": 2327.42,
    "end": 2329.28,
    "text": "that many in Europe unfortunately"
  },
  {
    "start": 2329.64,
    "end": 2331.5,
    "text": "and in Western Europe that has more influence"
  },
  {
    "start": 2331.56,
    "end": 2337.44,
    "text": "over Israel the approach that many seem to be taking where they are prioritizing their Relationship"
  },
  {
    "start": 2337.74,
    "end": 2338.66,
    "text": "with Israel over"
  },
  {
    "start": 2338.74,
    "end": 2339.96,
    "text": "their commitment to international"
  },
  {
    "start": 2340.08,
    "end": 2341.38,
    "text": "law at least in that context"
  },
  {
    "start": 2341.96,
    "end": 2344.24,
    "text": "That's that's not really helping Israel."
  },
  {
    "start": 2344.38,
    "end": 2345.58,
    "text": "That's helping currents"
  },
  {
    "start": 2345.66,
    "end": 2345.74,
    "text": "that"
  },
  {
    "start": 2345.8,
    "end": 2348.7,
    "text": "exist in Israeli society in the Israeli political"
  },
  {
    "start": 2348.8,
    "end": 2350.74,
    "text": "system that are corrosive."
  },
  {
    "start": 2350.84,
    "end": 2352.54,
    "text": "They're destroying the country from within."
  },
  {
    "start": 2352.62,
    "end": 2363.62,
    "text": "from the perspective of at least those of us who are committed to democratic values who, you know, I mean, there are people who would define themselves as Zionists,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2363.7,
    "end": 2363.94,
    "text": "but their"
  },
  {
    "start": 2364.04,
    "end": 2368.18,
    "text": "vision of Zionism was of a democratic state."
  },
  {
    "start": 2368.24,
    "end": 2371.08,
    "text": "I mean, that's a complicated thing to explain, but"
  },
  {
    "start": 2371.72,
    "end": 2374.28,
    "text": "there are many people who are seeing that crumble before their"
  },
  {
    "start": 2374.44,
    "end": 2374.72,
    "text": "eyes."
  },
  {
    "start": 2376.34,
    "end": 2383.66,
    "text": "It's just an empty shell of, it calls itself a democracy, but it's a democracy emptied of these values"
  },
  {
    "start": 2383.72,
    "end": 2383.82,
    "text": "that"
  },
  {
    "start": 2383.9,
    "end": 2384.12,
    "text": "really"
  },
  {
    "start": 2384.98,
    "end": 2385.7,
    "text": "had justified"
  },
  {
    "start": 2385.78,
    "end": 2385.84,
    "text": "its"
  },
  {
    "start": 2385.9,
    "end": 2386.5,
    "text": "existence"
  },
  {
    "start": 2386.74,
    "end": 2388.02,
    "text": "beforehand and for many people"
  },
  {
    "start": 2388.1,
    "end": 2389.52,
    "text": "that's the state that they're committed"
  },
  {
    "start": 2389.6,
    "end": 2389.66,
    "text": "to."
  },
  {
    "start": 2390.32,
    "end": 2394.28,
    "text": "So by supporting Israel as it turns its back on these fundamental"
  },
  {
    "start": 2394.38,
    "end": 2394.82,
    "text": "values,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2395.44,
    "end": 2402.2,
    "text": "you're promoting the European actors that are doing that, the international actors that are doing that are supporting."
  },
  {
    "start": 2403.62,
    "end": 2405.46,
    "text": "the development of, or the"
  },
  {
    "start": 2405.62,
    "end": 2406.5,
    "text": "rise to power of"
  },
  {
    "start": 2406.64,
    "end": 2406.98,
    "text": "elements"
  },
  {
    "start": 2407.1,
    "end": 2408.28,
    "text": "that are committed"
  },
  {
    "start": 2408.52,
    "end": 2412.62,
    "text": "to a completely different set of values and completely different visions."
  },
  {
    "start": 2412.72,
    "end": 2414.4,
    "text": "I mean, we have people in the government"
  },
  {
    "start": 2414.98,
    "end": 2416.28,
    "text": "who see these norms"
  },
  {
    "start": 2416.64,
    "end": 2418.8,
    "text": "as, not just as norms that they're"
  },
  {
    "start": 2418.84,
    "end": 2419.68,
    "text": "indifferent to, they're"
  },
  {
    "start": 2419.72,
    "end": 2420.72,
    "text": "actually antagonistic"
  },
  {
    "start": 2420.8,
    "end": 2421.4,
    "text": "towards them."
  },
  {
    "start": 2421.46,
    "end": 2422.9,
    "text": "If you listen to statements made"
  },
  {
    "start": 2423.0,
    "end": 2425.3,
    "text": "by people like Ben Grey"
  },
  {
    "start": 2425.42,
    "end": 2425.9,
    "text": "and Smotri"
  },
  {
    "start": 2426.0,
    "end": 2433.82,
    "text": "to our ministers in our government and actually other officials as well, they, Their vision"
  },
  {
    "start": 2434.6,
    "end": 2435.76,
    "text": "for the future is based"
  },
  {
    "start": 2435.94,
    "end": 2438.22,
    "text": "on a completely different set"
  },
  {
    "start": 2438.28,
    "end": 2439.16,
    "text": "of norms as kind of"
  },
  {
    "start": 2439.22,
    "end": 2440.2,
    "text": "their reading of,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2442.56,
    "end": 2443.98,
    "text": "in my view, kind of twisted reading"
  },
  {
    "start": 2444.1,
    "end": 2447.66,
    "text": "of Jewish tradition and Jewish"
  },
  {
    "start": 2447.76,
    "end": 2448.1,
    "text": "norms."
  },
  {
    "start": 2448.62,
    "end": 2450.72,
    "text": "This vision of a greater Israel"
  },
  {
    "start": 2453.02,
    "end": 2453.18,
    "text": "and"
  },
  {
    "start": 2453.58,
    "end": 2458.58,
    "text": "Palestinians are in the way of that vision and they're willing to do, it seems, almost anything to get them out of the picture."
  },
  {
    "start": 2459.4,
    "end": 2461.14,
    "text": "just to support that is to really"
  },
  {
    "start": 2461.24,
    "end": 2462.12,
    "text": "corrupt the country."
  },
  {
    "start": 2462.36,
    "end": 2462.44,
    "text": "So"
  },
  {
    "start": 2463.1,
    "end": 2464.96,
    "text": "I don't think even though it seems like"
  },
  {
    "start": 2465.94,
    "end": 2468.34,
    "text": "it's helping Israel, that is really helping Israel."
  },
  {
    "start": 2468.44,
    "end": 2472.0,
    "text": "I mean, I suppose the other side of this is that they're they're interested of a different kind."
  },
  {
    "start": 2472.1,
    "end": 2473.64,
    "text": "It's not just"
  },
  {
    "start": 2473.98,
    "end": 2475.88,
    "text": "the value of defending Israel."
  },
  {
    "start": 2476.04,
    "end": 2478.12,
    "text": "It's also all kinds of economic relations,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2478.2,
    "end": 2478.72,
    "text": "the relations"
  },
  {
    "start": 2478.78,
    "end": 2479.3,
    "text": "with the U.S."
  },
  {
    "start": 2479.36,
    "end": 2480.42,
    "text": "that will be complicated."
  },
  {
    "start": 2481.5,
    "end": 2486.16,
    "text": "So we still hope that there's going to be enough commitment."
  },
  {
    "start": 2486.54,
    "end": 2493.54,
    "text": "to the rule of law to stand up and perhaps sacrifice some of those economic interests, at least in the short term,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2494.56,
    "end": 2495.36,
    "text": "perhaps stand up to the"
  },
  {
    "start": 2495.5,
    "end": 2496.12,
    "text": "US a little bit."
  },
  {
    "start": 2496.62,
    "end": 2503.02,
    "text": "Personally, I mean, I can't speak for the EU, but my only impression is that that would be in Europe's"
  },
  {
    "start": 2503.14,
    "end": 2505.18,
    "text": "interest as well, to succumb"
  },
  {
    "start": 2505.22,
    "end": 2508.24,
    "text": "to the kind of pressure to accept"
  },
  {
    "start": 2508.32,
    "end": 2510.94,
    "text": "these practices, this kind"
  },
  {
    "start": 2511.0,
    "end": 2512.7,
    "text": "of attitude that Trump has."
  },
  {
    "start": 2514.18,
    "end": 2518.36,
    "text": "where you know you can just say that you want to take over Greenland and I don't think that's in."
  },
  {
    "start": 2518.7,
    "end": 2519.62,
    "text": "I don't think it's at all"
  },
  {
    "start": 2519.7,
    "end": 2520.48,
    "text": "in Europe's interest"
  },
  {
    "start": 2520.56,
    "end": 2521.62,
    "text": "to to accept that."
  },
  {
    "start": 2521.72,
    "end": 2521.84,
    "text": "how"
  },
  {
    "start": 2521.88,
    "end": 2524.64,
    "text": "do you stand up to put in afterwards and say stop?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2525.3,
    "end": 2526.0,
    "text": "on what grounds?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2529.9,
    "end": 2540.64,
    "text": "Does the way that European states are positioned themselves does it entail any you know implications when it comes to international law?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2540.78,
    "end": 2547.04,
    "text": "Does it have, do they have any responsibility to protect some of these rules?"
  },
  {
    "start": 2547.5,
    "end": 2548.16,
    "text": "No, so absolutely."
  },
  {
    "start": 2548.26,
    "end": 2549.54,
    "text": "So I mean, I was saying that this"
  },
  {
    "start": 2549.6,
    "end": 2550.76,
    "text": "is an expectation that"
  },
  {
    "start": 2550.82,
    "end": 2555.06,
    "text": "we have, but it's also actually an obligation in some cases."
  },
  {
    "start": 2555.48,
    "end": 2560.42,
    "text": "So first of all, states have an obligation that they undertook"
  },
  {
    "start": 2560.52,
    "end": 2561.52,
    "text": "to abide by"
  },
  {
    "start": 2562.18,
    "end": 2564.34,
    "text": "when they signed up to the Geneva Conventions,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2564.52,
    "end": 2567.16,
    "text": "all four of the Geneva Conventions in their first article."
  },
  {
    "start": 2567.2,
    "end": 2567.26,
    "text": "So"
  },
  {
    "start": 2567.36,
    "end": 2571.5,
    "text": "right at the beginning, have a provision that says that states will"
  },
  {
    "start": 2571.6,
    "end": 2575.28,
    "text": "respect and ensure respect for the conventions."
  },
  {
    "start": 2575.78,
    "end": 2576.44,
    "text": "And that's understood"
  },
  {
    "start": 2576.5,
    "end": 2579.64,
    "text": "to be a duty to respect and ensure respect for IHL more broadly."
  },
  {
    "start": 2580.96,
    "end": 2582.22,
    "text": "Ensuring respect means"
  },
  {
    "start": 2582.4,
    "end": 2583.52,
    "text": "not only ensuring"
  },
  {
    "start": 2583.64,
    "end": 2585.42,
    "text": "internally that your own nationals"
  },
  {
    "start": 2585.52,
    "end": 2587.36,
    "text": "respect the law, but also that others"
  },
  {
    "start": 2587.44,
    "end": 2587.5,
    "text": "do."
  },
  {
    "start": 2587.84,
    "end": 2588.42,
    "text": "To do what you"
  },
  {
    "start": 2588.5,
    "end": 2590.08,
    "text": "can, so it's a kind of obligation of"
  },
  {
    "start": 2590.2,
    "end": 2592.66,
    "text": "means to act with due diligence to ensure"
  },
  {
    "start": 2592.76,
    "end": 2593.0,
    "text": "that"
  },
  {
    "start": 2594.2,
    "end": 2594.86,
    "text": "other actors"
  },
  {
    "start": 2595.06,
    "end": 2596.14,
    "text": "respect their obligations"
  },
  {
    "start": 2596.18,
    "end": 2596.92,
    "text": "under international"
  },
  {
    "start": 2596.98,
    "end": 2597.08,
    "text": "law."
  },
  {
    "start": 2597.26,
    "end": 2598.3,
    "text": "So, I mean, for example,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2599.04,
    "end": 2600.9,
    "text": "you shouldn't be providing the means."
  },
  {
    "start": 2601.34,
    "end": 2603.3,
    "text": "with which the law is being violated."
  },
  {
    "start": 2603.4,
    "end": 2604.54,
    "text": "So if you're witnessing"
  },
  {
    "start": 2604.84,
    "end": 2609.46,
    "text": "that Israel is bombarding Gaza in a way that constitutes a"
  },
  {
    "start": 2609.56,
    "end": 2610.08,
    "text": "war crime,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2611.26,
    "end": 2612.22,
    "text": "then you shouldn't be providing"
  },
  {
    "start": 2612.3,
    "end": 2612.36,
    "text": "the"
  },
  {
    "start": 2612.72,
    "end": 2614.5,
    "text": "weapons with which that or parts that"
  },
  {
    "start": 2614.58,
    "end": 2614.98,
    "text": "enable"
  },
  {
    "start": 2615.04,
    "end": 2615.58,
    "text": "it to do so."
  },
  {
    "start": 2616.04,
    "end": 2619.16,
    "text": "And you should be as much as you"
  },
  {
    "start": 2619.24,
    "end": 2619.8,
    "text": "can putting"
  },
  {
    "start": 2619.86,
    "end": 2620.86,
    "text": "pressure on Israel to"
  },
  {
    "start": 2620.94,
    "end": 2621.52,
    "text": "refrain from"
  },
  {
    "start": 2621.58,
    "end": 2621.76,
    "text": "this"
  },
  {
    "start": 2623.04,
    "end": 2623.52,
    "text": "behavior."
  },
  {
    "start": 2624.1,
    "end": 2624.86,
    "text": "And obligations of"
  },
  {
    "start": 2624.98,
    "end": 2627.96,
    "text": "means means that those who have more influence have more obligations."
  },
  {
    "start": 2628.48,
    "end": 2634.32,
    "text": "So... the EU as a collective and its members, particularly the more powerful members of the EU."
  },
  {
    "start": 2634.46,
    "end": 2635.76,
    "text": "So we're speaking in Germany."
  },
  {
    "start": 2635.84,
    "end": 2637.1,
    "text": "Germany certainly falls in that"
  },
  {
    "start": 2637.94,
    "end": 2638.38,
    "text": "category"
  },
  {
    "start": 2638.7,
    "end": 2638.84,
    "text": "also"
  },
  {
    "start": 2638.9,
    "end": 2639.58,
    "text": "because it has strong"
  },
  {
    "start": 2639.66,
    "end": 2640.52,
    "text": "relations with Israel."
  },
  {
    "start": 2640.88,
    "end": 2642.32,
    "text": "They have more robust obligations"
  },
  {
    "start": 2642.4,
    "end": 2643.52,
    "text": "to promote"
  },
  {
    "start": 2643.72,
    "end": 2644.1,
    "text": "respect"
  },
  {
    "start": 2644.16,
    "end": 2645.68,
    "text": "for international humanitarian law."
  },
  {
    "start": 2646.34,
    "end": 2647.4,
    "text": "And then there are"
  },
  {
    "start": 2648.16,
    "end": 2648.42,
    "text": "norms"
  },
  {
    "start": 2648.48,
    "end": 2649.8,
    "text": "of international law that impose"
  },
  {
    "start": 2649.84,
    "end": 2652.06,
    "text": "a responsibility on states to respond"
  },
  {
    "start": 2652.12,
    "end": 2655.06,
    "text": "to what we call internationally wrongful acts."
  },
  {
    "start": 2655.22,
    "end": 2656.88,
    "text": "So certain violations of international"
  },
  {
    "start": 2656.96,
    "end": 2657.08,
    "text": "law."
  },
  {
    "start": 2658.94,
    "end": 2660.74,
    "text": "Especially when there are severe violations,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2660.86,
    "end": 2663.38,
    "text": "there are basic norms of international law."
  },
  {
    "start": 2663.68,
    "end": 2666.16,
    "text": "We call them peremptory norms or use COVID."
  },
  {
    "start": 2666.9,
    "end": 2667.06,
    "text": "And"
  },
  {
    "start": 2668.02,
    "end": 2668.9,
    "text": "Israel is violating"
  },
  {
    "start": 2669.22,
    "end": 2670.16,
    "text": "those norms, or at least there's"
  },
  {
    "start": 2670.24,
    "end": 2671.14,
    "text": "grounds for concern"
  },
  {
    "start": 2671.2,
    "end": 2673.34,
    "text": "that it's violating many of those norms."
  },
  {
    "start": 2673.58,
    "end": 2674.56,
    "text": "For example, respecting"
  },
  {
    "start": 2674.6,
    "end": 2676.64,
    "text": "the right to self-determination of a people."
  },
  {
    "start": 2678.22,
    "end": 2685.8,
    "text": "Certainly the prohibition against genocide, committing serious violations of international humanitarian law that would amount to war crimes."
  },
  {
    "start": 2686.52,
    "end": 2691.06,
    "text": "When those kinds of violations occur, then other states have obligations."
  },
  {
    "start": 2691.74,
    "end": 2693.1,
    "text": "First of all, they're not allowed to"
  },
  {
    "start": 2693.38,
    "end": 2694.08,
    "text": "assist in any"
  },
  {
    "start": 2694.18,
    "end": 2696.52,
    "text": "way in perpetrating those violations."
  },
  {
    "start": 2698.12,
    "end": 2700.36,
    "text": "And secondly, they're not supposed to recognize"
  },
  {
    "start": 2700.5,
    "end": 2703.64,
    "text": "those unlawful acts as being lawful in any way."
  },
  {
    "start": 2704.32,
    "end": 2705.5,
    "text": "And then finally, they're supposed to"
  },
  {
    "start": 2705.68,
    "end": 2707.32,
    "text": "act individually and collectively"
  },
  {
    "start": 2708.0,
    "end": 2709.16,
    "text": "to cooperate to try and bring"
  },
  {
    "start": 2709.22,
    "end": 2710.58,
    "text": "an end to the violations."
  },
  {
    "start": 2712.14,
    "end": 2714.12,
    "text": "And we haven't seen enough of that."
  },
  {
    "start": 2714.46,
    "end": 2715.6,
    "text": "We're beginning to see small"
  },
  {
    "start": 2715.74,
    "end": 2716.14,
    "text": "signs,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2716.3,
    "end": 2723.44,
    "text": "but the fact is that, you know, we've recently heard the authoritative body indicate that there's a famine in Gaza."
  },
  {
    "start": 2725.2,
    "end": 2731.08,
    "text": "The situation is, and on top of that, there've been some dramatic developments within international"
  },
  {
    "start": 2731.14,
    "end": 2731.86,
    "text": "institutions"
  },
  {
    "start": 2732.1,
    "end": 2734.78,
    "text": "that... actually created extra obligations"
  },
  {
    "start": 2734.86,
    "end": 2735.92,
    "text": "for states to respond."
  },
  {
    "start": 2736.28,
    "end": 2738.54,
    "text": "So I mentioned the International Court of Justice before."
  },
  {
    "start": 2739.08,
    "end": 2742.32,
    "text": "They've been some dramatic developments before the International Court of Justice."
  },
  {
    "start": 2742.46,
    "end": 2744.46,
    "text": "One was it issued an advisory opinion."
  },
  {
    "start": 2744.54,
    "end": 2747.68,
    "text": "So that's the court as a function where"
  },
  {
    "start": 2747.72,
    "end": 2748.36,
    "text": "it can answer"
  },
  {
    "start": 2748.54,
    "end": 2752.78,
    "text": "a certain question and its answers on questions of international law are considered authoritative."
  },
  {
    "start": 2753.22,
    "end": 2755.54,
    "text": "It provides the authoritative interpretation on the law"
  },
  {
    "start": 2755.72,
    "end": 2756.42,
    "text": "and it was asked"
  },
  {
    "start": 2757.38,
    "end": 2761.66,
    "text": "to assess the policies and practices of Israel in the occupied Palestinian"
  },
  {
    "start": 2761.76,
    "end": 2762.12,
    "text": "territory."
  },
  {
    "start": 2763.54,
    "end": 2763.98,
    "text": "And among other"
  },
  {
    "start": 2764.02,
    "end": 2767.7,
    "text": "things, to assess whether Israel's presence in the occupied Palestinian territory is lawful."
  },
  {
    "start": 2767.88,
    "end": 2771.48,
    "text": "And it found that Israel's presence in the occupied Palestinian territories"
  },
  {
    "start": 2771.62,
    "end": 2771.74,
    "text": "is"
  },
  {
    "start": 2772.38,
    "end": 2775.22,
    "text": "unlawful and must end as rapidly as possible."
  },
  {
    "start": 2775.72,
    "end": 2776.64,
    "text": "That was a year ago."
  },
  {
    "start": 2778.42,
    "end": 2778.92,
    "text": "Israel has only"
  },
  {
    "start": 2779.28,
    "end": 2780.34,
    "text": "since entrenched"
  },
  {
    "start": 2780.4,
    "end": 2781.48,
    "text": "its presence in occupied"
  },
  {
    "start": 2781.52,
    "end": 2781.86,
    "text": "territory."
  },
  {
    "start": 2782.52,
    "end": 2784.68,
    "text": "It's entrenched its settlement enterprise."
  },
  {
    "start": 2784.74,
    "end": 2785.0,
    "text": "There's"
  },
  {
    "start": 2785.62,
    "end": 2789.46,
    "text": "practices like violence, settler violence, displacement of local people."
  },
  {
    "start": 2789.66,
    "end": 2790.78,
    "text": "Everything has just gotten worse"
  },
  {
    "start": 2790.98,
    "end": 2791.78,
    "text": "since that decision."
  },
  {
    "start": 2793.38,
    "end": 2795.48,
    "text": "The court didn't just say that Israel has to leave."
  },
  {
    "start": 2795.54,
    "end": 2799.66,
    "text": "It also was asked and answered a question about third state's responsibilities."
  },
  {
    "start": 2799.78,
    "end": 2800.14,
    "text": "And there,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2800.3,
    "end": 2803.38,
    "text": "among other things, it said that third states certainly shouldn't aid and"
  },
  {
    "start": 2803.42,
    "end": 2803.96,
    "text": "assist in"
  },
  {
    "start": 2804.1,
    "end": 2810.52,
    "text": "creating this reality that they shouldn't recognize this reality is lawful and that they should take"
  },
  {
    "start": 2810.72,
    "end": 2811.22,
    "text": "actions"
  },
  {
    "start": 2812.8,
    "end": 2813.06,
    "text": "so as"
  },
  {
    "start": 2813.5,
    "end": 2817.28,
    "text": "not to have a hand in maintaining this illegal enterprise"
  },
  {
    "start": 2817.38,
    "end": 2818.32,
    "text": "or in entrenching it."
  },
  {
    "start": 2818.86,
    "end": 2819.64,
    "text": "So, for example,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2820.06,
    "end": 2822.16,
    "text": "that would mean that you shouldn't in any"
  },
  {
    "start": 2822.28,
    "end": 2822.4,
    "text": "way"
  },
  {
    "start": 2822.6,
    "end": 2824.02,
    "text": "economically assist"
  },
  {
    "start": 2824.58,
    "end": 2824.9,
    "text": "Israel."
  },
  {
    "start": 2825.7,
    "end": 2828.66,
    "text": "to maintain its illegal presence in occupied Palestinian territories."
  },
  {
    "start": 2828.98,
    "end": 2833.44,
    "text": "In fact, you should create economic incentives not to maintain that reality."
  },
  {
    "start": 2834.0,
    "end": 2835.5,
    "text": "We haven't seen effective measures on that."
  },
  {
    "start": 2835.78,
    "end": 2835.84,
    "text": "So"
  },
  {
    "start": 2836.46,
    "end": 2837.56,
    "text": "the EU seems content"
  },
  {
    "start": 2837.62,
    "end": 2839.28,
    "text": "to kind of carry on with the measures that have been"
  },
  {
    "start": 2839.36,
    "end": 2840.52,
    "text": "set in place beforehand,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2840.6,
    "end": 2846.68,
    "text": "where basically you label products to indicate whether they come from the West Bank."
  },
  {
    "start": 2846.74,
    "end": 2847.42,
    "text": "And that's, I mean,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2848.04,
    "end": 2848.76,
    "text": "that does nothing."
  },
  {
    "start": 2848.94,
    "end": 2849.54,
    "text": "These products."
  },
  {
    "start": 2850.18,
    "end": 2850.4,
    "text": "There are."
  },
  {
    "start": 2851.06,
    "end": 2854.46,
    "text": "there's some products that are labeled as coming from the West Bank and then you sort of leave"
  },
  {
    "start": 2854.5,
    "end": 2855.46,
    "text": "it for the consumer"
  },
  {
    "start": 2856.12,
    "end": 2857.0,
    "text": "To make the decision"
  },
  {
    "start": 2857.22,
    "end": 2857.98,
    "text": "rather than the state"
  },
  {
    "start": 2858.06,
    "end": 2859.04,
    "text": "actually taking action."
  },
  {
    "start": 2859.8,
    "end": 2860.38,
    "text": "on top of that"
  },
  {
    "start": 2860.9,
    "end": 2862.18,
    "text": "Israel markets so many"
  },
  {
    "start": 2862.26,
    "end": 2864.88,
    "text": "of the goods coming from the occupied"
  },
  {
    "start": 2864.94,
    "end": 2865.36,
    "text": "territory"
  },
  {
    "start": 2865.7,
    "end": 2867.94,
    "text": "as Israeli products, because Israel doesn't"
  },
  {
    "start": 2868.02,
    "end": 2869.76,
    "text": "draw any distinction between the West Bank,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2869.86,
    "end": 2870.78,
    "text": "the occupied territory, and its"
  },
  {
    "start": 2870.86,
    "end": 2871.36,
    "text": "own territory."
  },
  {
    "start": 2871.52,
    "end": 2871.58,
    "text": "So,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2871.74,
    "end": 2874.74,
    "text": "for example, a company producing wine"
  },
  {
    "start": 2875.66,
    "end": 2876.7,
    "text": "will be registered"
  },
  {
    "start": 2876.76,
    "end": 2877.34,
    "text": "in an Israeli"
  },
  {
    "start": 2877.44,
    "end": 2877.66,
    "text": "city"
  },
  {
    "start": 2877.84,
    "end": 2881.96,
    "text": "on the Israeli side of the green line, but the vineyards are sometimes in the West"
  },
  {
    "start": 2882.0,
    "end": 2882.12,
    "text": "Bank."
  },
  {
    "start": 2882.18,
    "end": 2882.48,
    "text": "They won't"
  },
  {
    "start": 2882.54,
    "end": 2885.04,
    "text": "draw any distinction, and they'll market that on the basis of it."
  },
  {
    "start": 2885.1,
    "end": 2886.6,
    "text": "You know, it's in Rishon et Sion."
  },
  {
    "start": 2886.78,
    "end": 2887.6,
    "text": "That's where it's registered."
  },
  {
    "start": 2888.06,
    "end": 2890.76,
    "text": "So, it will be marketed as an Israeli product."
  },
  {
    "start": 2892.46,
    "end": 2898.74,
    "text": "And so, It's nowhere near the kind of pressure that would be required to actually adhere to what the court"
  },
  {
    "start": 2898.82,
    "end": 2899.26,
    "text": "required."
  },
  {
    "start": 2899.34,
    "end": 2903.42,
    "text": "Then that's just, I'm not exhausting everything to say about that advisory opinion."
  },
  {
    "start": 2904.16,
    "end": 2910.68,
    "text": "But on top of that, the court had to deal with a case that was instituted"
  },
  {
    "start": 2910.76,
    "end": 2911.54,
    "text": "by South Africa."
  },
  {
    "start": 2911.58,
    "end": 2914.12,
    "text": "That was interesting for me being a South African and an Israeli."
  },
  {
    "start": 2914.3,
    "end": 2919.02,
    "text": "So South Africa instituted a case before the International Court of Justice against Israel."
  },
  {
    "start": 2919.78,
    "end": 2923.16,
    "text": "alleging that Israel is committing genocide and asking"
  },
  {
    "start": 2923.2,
    "end": 2925.12,
    "text": "the court to intervene to prevent this crime"
  },
  {
    "start": 2925.16,
    "end": 2926.44,
    "text": "from being perpetrated."
  },
  {
    "start": 2927.0,
    "end": 2928.72,
    "text": "It's going to take years for that case"
  },
  {
    "start": 2928.76,
    "end": 2929.46,
    "text": "to be resolved."
  },
  {
    "start": 2929.52,
    "end": 2929.52,
    "text": "I"
  },
  {
    "start": 2930.14,
    "end": 2933.62,
    "text": "don't know what's going to be left of the population in Gaza by the time that happens."
  },
  {
    "start": 2934.52,
    "end": 2938.38,
    "text": "But in the meantime, the court has issued some interim provisional orders."
  },
  {
    "start": 2939.7,
    "end": 2941.14,
    "text": "And in this case,"
  },
  {
    "start": 2941.18,
    "end": 2942.2,
    "text": "these are legally binding."
  },
  {
    "start": 2942.32,
    "end": 2945.38,
    "text": "Israel has an obligation to abide by these orders."
  },
  {
    "start": 2945.96,
    "end": 2946.82,
    "text": "For example, the"
  },
  {
    "start": 2946.9,
    "end": 2947.7,
    "text": "court instructed"
  },
  {
    "start": 2948.28,
    "end": 2950.66,
    "text": "that it has to refrain from any kind of action"
  },
  {
    "start": 2951.26,
    "end": 2951.72,
    "text": "that could"
  },
  {
    "start": 2952.72,
    "end": 2955.76,
    "text": "amount to a genocidal act as defined in the convention."
  },
  {
    "start": 2957.74,
    "end": 2958.76,
    "text": "It should prevent"
  },
  {
    "start": 2958.92,
    "end": 2961.72,
    "text": "any kind of incitement to commit genocide."
  },
  {
    "start": 2962.0,
    "end": 2962.2,
    "text": "Since"
  },
  {
    "start": 2962.24,
    "end": 2964.12,
    "text": "then, we've heard countless statements"
  },
  {
    "start": 2964.22,
    "end": 2971.56,
    "text": "by leading Israeli officials inciting for what amounts to genocide, so that hasn't happened."
  },
  {
    "start": 2972.0,
    "end": 2978.32,
    "text": "But also that it had to... ensure that humanitarian assistance was provided at scale to Gaza."
  },
  {
    "start": 2978.52,
    "end": 2984.88,
    "text": "And since then, we've seen the humanitarian situation turn into a catastrophe to the point, again, that people are starving"
  },
  {
    "start": 2985.08,
    "end": 2985.3,
    "text": "and there's"
  },
  {
    "start": 2985.34,
    "end": 2986.18,
    "text": "a famine in Gaza."
  },
  {
    "start": 2986.82,
    "end": 2987.42,
    "text": "So that's Israel's"
  },
  {
    "start": 2987.48,
    "end": 2990.52,
    "text": "obligations, but that also triggers obligations for third states."
  },
  {
    "start": 2990.56,
    "end": 2992.2,
    "text": "And you shouldn't have any hand"
  },
  {
    "start": 2992.36,
    "end": 2992.44,
    "text": "in"
  },
  {
    "start": 2992.82,
    "end": 3004.76,
    "text": "those kind of, in facilitating these, and you should ensure and create effective pressure, you being all third states, pressure on on Israel to abide by the provisional orders that it's violating."
  },
  {
    "start": 3004.8,
    "end": 3005.16,
    "text": "That hasn't"
  },
  {
    "start": 3005.2,
    "end": 3006.02,
    "text": "happened certainly"
  },
  {
    "start": 3006.16,
    "end": 3006.36,
    "text": "in any"
  },
  {
    "start": 3006.44,
    "end": 3007.32,
    "text": "kind of effective way."
  },
  {
    "start": 3008.32,
    "end": 3010.14,
    "text": "I mean, you can live in Israel now"
  },
  {
    "start": 3012.68,
    "end": 3012.96,
    "text": "almost,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3013.4,
    "end": 3014.88,
    "text": "you know, as though things are normal."
  },
  {
    "start": 3016.56,
    "end": 3021.08,
    "text": "I mean, those of us who are monitoring what's happening, who are aware of what's happening can't"
  },
  {
    "start": 3021.16,
    "end": 3021.2,
    "text": "do"
  },
  {
    "start": 3021.3,
    "end": 3021.5,
    "text": "that."
  },
  {
    "start": 3021.9,
    "end": 3026.2,
    "text": "You know, you look at your plate and you're thinking about someone just a few kilometers down the way who's starving."
  },
  {
    "start": 3026.24,
    "end": 3031.2,
    "text": "But for most people, you can carry on with life as normal and there hasn't been any kind"
  },
  {
    "start": 3031.24,
    "end": 3031.78,
    "text": "of mirror that's"
  },
  {
    "start": 3031.82,
    "end": 3035.54,
    "text": "been set up by the international community to make people sort of reflect on themselves."
  },
  {
    "start": 3035.7,
    "end": 3048.96,
    "text": "I say that because as a South African who was old enough to have remembered being a child in apartheid South Africa, white people in South Africa, at least in the part of the public that I lived among,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3049.4,
    "end": 3049.68,
    "text": "were very"
  },
  {
    "start": 3049.76,
    "end": 3051.0,
    "text": "much aware that their country"
  },
  {
    "start": 3051.1,
    "end": 3052.1,
    "text": "was doing something wrong."
  },
  {
    "start": 3052.28,
    "end": 3052.9,
    "text": "And that was partly"
  },
  {
    "start": 3052.98,
    "end": 3054.78,
    "text": "because they were constantly reminded of that."
  },
  {
    "start": 3055.52,
    "end": 3056.02,
    "text": "They were banned"
  },
  {
    "start": 3056.08,
    "end": 3058.0,
    "text": "from participating in any kind of cultural"
  },
  {
    "start": 3058.16,
    "end": 3058.88,
    "text": "sports events"
  },
  {
    "start": 3059.0,
    "end": 3059.7,
    "text": "internationally."
  },
  {
    "start": 3061.0,
    "end": 3061.76,
    "text": "kind of showing your"
  },
  {
    "start": 3062.34,
    "end": 3064.08,
    "text": "South African passport and airport"
  },
  {
    "start": 3064.12,
    "end": 3065.16,
    "text": "was a kind of shameful thing."
  },
  {
    "start": 3065.2,
    "end": 3067.06,
    "text": "There were economic sanctions that were put on board."
  },
  {
    "start": 3067.1,
    "end": 3067.1,
    "text": "I"
  },
  {
    "start": 3067.94,
    "end": 3070.02,
    "text": "mean, that would be kind of painful"
  },
  {
    "start": 3070.22,
    "end": 3072.38,
    "text": "for those of us living in Israel to experience"
  },
  {
    "start": 3072.44,
    "end": 3072.66,
    "text": "that."
  },
  {
    "start": 3074.48,
    "end": 3075.62,
    "text": "I think it's essential"
  },
  {
    "start": 3075.68,
    "end": 3076.02,
    "text": "that there'll be"
  },
  {
    "start": 3076.2,
    "end": 3076.74,
    "text": "some kind"
  },
  {
    "start": 3076.84,
    "end": 3077.46,
    "text": "of pressure."
  },
  {
    "start": 3077.5,
    "end": 3078.58,
    "text": "It's not going to come from within,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3078.64,
    "end": 3079.48,
    "text": "unfortunately, this"
  },
  {
    "start": 3080.04,
    "end": 3081.72,
    "text": "understanding about what's happening."
  },
  {
    "start": 3081.78,
    "end": 3086.66,
    "text": "There are parts of the population that realize some people are motor-fied, but most"
  },
  {
    "start": 3086.74,
    "end": 3088.68,
    "text": "are going on with their lives as normal and they kind of"
  },
  {
    "start": 3088.78,
    "end": 3089.02,
    "text": "can."
  },
  {
    "start": 3090.74,
    "end": 3090.82,
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "start": 3092.84,
    "end": 3106.58,
    "text": "What do you say, and maybe we'll come to an end soon, but what do you say to people who really, you know, question international law in general because of its because there's no way to enforce it?"
  },
  {
    "start": 3106.82,
    "end": 3130.06,
    "text": "there's no you know I think there's a lot of I don't know, yeah, it's just like a general feeling of why do we have these rules if there's no way to enforce them, if there's no respect for them at all, and how do you think that there's still a need for those rules to be"
  },
  {
    "start": 3130.7,
    "end": 3130.86,
    "text": "kept"
  },
  {
    "start": 3130.94,
    "end": 3131.32,
    "text": "in place?"
  },
  {
    "start": 3131.72,
    "end": 3136.02,
    "text": "So, I mean, obviously, those of us who work in this field are increasingly frustrated by that."
  },
  {
    "start": 3136.1,
    "end": 3136.3,
    "text": "So you"
  },
  {
    "start": 3136.36,
    "end": 3136.5,
    "text": "know"
  },
  {
    "start": 3136.58,
    "end": 3138.02,
    "text": "the law, you're pointing it out, you're"
  },
  {
    "start": 3138.08,
    "end": 3139.92,
    "text": "raising these claims, and you're seeing them being"
  },
  {
    "start": 3139.96,
    "end": 3142.34,
    "text": "consistently violated in ways that are becoming more"
  },
  {
    "start": 3142.38,
    "end": 3143.02,
    "text": "and more severe."
  },
  {
    "start": 3143.1,
    "end": 3145.06,
    "text": "So I certainly can sympathize"
  },
  {
    "start": 3145.12,
    "end": 3146.32,
    "text": "with that sentiment."
  },
  {
    "start": 3147.16,
    "end": 3149.28,
    "text": "I don't think that the problem with these laws,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3149.78,
    "end": 3151.92,
    "text": "for the most part, is their content."
  },
  {
    "start": 3152.14,
    "end": 3152.2,
    "text": "So"
  },
  {
    "start": 3152.62,
    "end": 3153.48,
    "text": "I mean, they can be improved."
  },
  {
    "start": 3154.82,
    "end": 3155.8,
    "text": "No law is perfect,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3155.86,
    "end": 3156.92,
    "text": "and this body of law certainly"
  },
  {
    "start": 3157.0,
    "end": 3157.54,
    "text": "isn't perfect."
  },
  {
    "start": 3158.1,
    "end": 3158.5,
    "text": "But if it"
  },
  {
    "start": 3159.28,
    "end": 3160.0,
    "text": "had been adhered"
  },
  {
    "start": 3160.06,
    "end": 3163.92,
    "text": "to, the reality would be so much better than it is."
  },
  {
    "start": 3165.82,
    "end": 3168.0,
    "text": "A lot of the situation that"
  },
  {
    "start": 3168.1,
    "end": 3169.28,
    "text": "sort of locked Palestinians"
  },
  {
    "start": 3169.34,
    "end": 3172.96,
    "text": "and Israelis in an impossible kind of situation that's really difficult to see how"
  },
  {
    "start": 3173.0,
    "end": 3175.28,
    "text": "to unravel wouldn't have unfolded if the law had"
  },
  {
    "start": 3175.36,
    "end": 3176.72,
    "text": "been respected."
  },
  {
    "start": 3177.14,
    "end": 3178.46,
    "text": "So my approach is that"
  },
  {
    "start": 3179.1,
    "end": 3179.72,
    "text": "these laws"
  },
  {
    "start": 3180.22,
    "end": 3180.74,
    "text": "outline"
  },
  {
    "start": 3181.88,
    "end": 3182.7,
    "text": "a mode of behavior"
  },
  {
    "start": 3182.82,
    "end": 3183.04,
    "text": "that we"
  },
  {
    "start": 3183.18,
    "end": 3184.38,
    "text": "should actually advocate"
  },
  {
    "start": 3184.48,
    "end": 3184.7,
    "text": "for."
  },
  {
    "start": 3185.72,
    "end": 3189.12,
    "text": "States have committed to this and I think we should take advantage of the fact"
  },
  {
    "start": 3189.16,
    "end": 3190.96,
    "text": "that they've made these formal commitments."
  },
  {
    "start": 3191.62,
    "end": 3193.34,
    "text": "And rather than just turning our back on this"
  },
  {
    "start": 3193.46,
    "end": 3194.86,
    "text": "law because it isn't being"
  },
  {
    "start": 3194.92,
    "end": 3195.5,
    "text": "respected"
  },
  {
    "start": 3195.9,
    "end": 3202.92,
    "text": "is to do more everything we can as civil society actors to ensure that these rules actually are acted upon and to"
  },
  {
    "start": 3203.12,
    "end": 3203.38,
    "text": "use the"
  },
  {
    "start": 3203.48,
    "end": 3205.1,
    "text": "fact that States have committed themselves"
  },
  {
    "start": 3205.18,
    "end": 3205.88,
    "text": "to these rules"
  },
  {
    "start": 3206.62,
    "end": 3210.38,
    "text": "to pressure them to actually respect what they committed to."
  },
  {
    "start": 3212.32,
    "end": 3216.92,
    "text": "It's a way of articulating an advocacy message really."
  },
  {
    "start": 3217.04,
    "end": 3217.48,
    "text": "So it's not"
  },
  {
    "start": 3217.56,
    "end": 3223.62,
    "text": "just certainly, I mean, what's happening in Gaza and the West Bank is a moral outrage."
  },
  {
    "start": 3223.66,
    "end": 3227.14,
    "text": "And you can definitely articulate it in the language of morality."
  },
  {
    "start": 3227.22,
    "end": 3227.62,
    "text": "But here"
  },
  {
    "start": 3228.28,
    "end": 3228.54,
    "text": "on top"
  },
  {
    "start": 3228.6,
    "end": 3229.4,
    "text": "of that, these"
  },
  {
    "start": 3229.98,
    "end": 3230.78,
    "text": "moral intuitions"
  },
  {
    "start": 3230.82,
    "end": 3230.9,
    "text": "have"
  },
  {
    "start": 3230.96,
    "end": 3233.0,
    "text": "been translated already into laws."
  },
  {
    "start": 3233.8,
    "end": 3234.04,
    "text": "And"
  },
  {
    "start": 3235.18,
    "end": 3239.1,
    "text": "I think we shouldn't surrender those laws just because to Trump's and Putin's and"
  },
  {
    "start": 3239.44,
    "end": 3243.04,
    "text": "Netanyahu's and all these actors who disregard them, but insist"
  },
  {
    "start": 3243.14,
    "end": 3243.36,
    "text": "on them."
  },
  {
    "start": 3243.66,
    "end": 3243.66,
    "text": "I"
  },
  {
    "start": 3245.38,
    "end": 3246.94,
    "text": "still, perhaps I'm naive, but I still have some"
  },
  {
    "start": 3247.02,
    "end": 3251.1,
    "text": "hope that depends also on the politics in various countries in Europe, but that within"
  },
  {
    "start": 3251.2,
    "end": 3252.7,
    "text": "Europe there is still some commitment"
  },
  {
    "start": 3252.78,
    "end": 3253.08,
    "text": "to these"
  },
  {
    "start": 3253.14,
    "end": 3255.44,
    "text": "values and that there is still some prospect"
  },
  {
    "start": 3255.5,
    "end": 3259.9,
    "text": "that, especially if politicians who respond, I suppose, among other things"
  },
  {
    "start": 3259.96,
    "end": 3263.62,
    "text": "to their voters, if civil society champions these rules"
  },
  {
    "start": 3263.74,
    "end": 3269.1,
    "text": "rather than turning them back on them and does so effectively, then hopefully we'll"
  },
  {
    "start": 3269.2,
    "end": 3269.36,
    "text": "see"
  },
  {
    "start": 3269.56,
    "end": 3272.02,
    "text": "a little bit more teeth for these norms."
  },
  {
    "start": 3272.14,
    "end": 3273.18,
    "text": "I think it's crucial."
  },
  {
    "start": 3274.28,
    "end": 3275.68,
    "text": "So I draw some encouragement by"
  },
  {
    "start": 3275.78,
    "end": 3277.02,
    "text": "seeing that even while"
  },
  {
    "start": 3277.52,
    "end": 3280.36,
    "text": "states are acting in an appalling way, in my view,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3281.08,
    "end": 3282.28,
    "text": "still providing weapons,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3282.78,
    "end": 3284.16,
    "text": "pretending that this isn't happening,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3284.22,
    "end": 3285.68,
    "text": "disregarding and criminalizing"
  },
  {
    "start": 3286.68,
    "end": 3286.96,
    "text": "those who"
  },
  {
    "start": 3287.06,
    "end": 3288.58,
    "text": "try to resist, that you're still seeing"
  },
  {
    "start": 3288.66,
    "end": 3288.98,
    "text": "people"
  },
  {
    "start": 3289.76,
    "end": 3290.72,
    "text": "coming out in the streets"
  },
  {
    "start": 3290.82,
    "end": 3293.7,
    "text": "in hundreds of thousands, millions, and some all over the world."
  },
  {
    "start": 3295.12,
    "end": 3295.72,
    "text": "And quite often they're"
  },
  {
    "start": 3295.78,
    "end": 3297.86,
    "text": "speaking the language of international law."
  },
  {
    "start": 3298.76,
    "end": 3299.88,
    "text": "I listen to, you know,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3301.26,
    "end": 3302.58,
    "text": "the way people are articulating"
  },
  {
    "start": 3302.62,
    "end": 3303.66,
    "text": "their concerns about Gaza,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3303.74,
    "end": 3305.6,
    "text": "and they are, among other things, speaking, perhaps"
  },
  {
    "start": 3305.68,
    "end": 3305.92,
    "text": "not even"
  },
  {
    "start": 3306.0,
    "end": 3306.4,
    "text": "knowingly,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3306.5,
    "end": 3307.8,
    "text": "the language of international law."
  },
  {
    "start": 3307.86,
    "end": 3308.18,
    "text": "And I think"
  },
  {
    "start": 3308.22,
    "end": 3308.66,
    "text": "there's some"
  },
  {
    "start": 3309.6,
    "end": 3312.5,
    "text": "power there, and we shouldn't surrender that power."
  },
  {
    "start": 3312.54,
    "end": 3313.16,
    "text": "We should push"
  },
  {
    "start": 3313.54,
    "end": 3315.3,
    "text": "more and struggle more, not less,"
  },
  {
    "start": 3315.68,
    "end": 3317.14,
    "text": "because those who"
  },
  {
    "start": 3317.42,
    "end": 3318.2,
    "text": "have the most power"
  },
  {
    "start": 3318.98,
    "end": 3320.22,
    "text": "are happy to ignore these rules."
  },
  {
    "start": 3320.26,
    "end": 3321.76,
    "text": "The rest of us should insist on them."
  },
  {
    "start": 3323.22,
    "end": 3326.76,
    "text": "I think that was a really good, beautifully said last words."
  },
  {
    "start": 3326.84,
    "end": 3327.86,
    "text": "Thank you so much, Eitan."
  },
  {
    "start": 3329.02,
    "end": 3330.08,
    "text": "Keep up the good work."
  },
  {
    "start": 3332.36,
    "end": 3333.16,
    "text": "I really need you."
  },
  {
    "start": 3333.22,
    "end": 3334.6,
    "text": "I might need a lawyer at some point."
  },
  {
    "start": 3335.02,
    "end": 3336.4,
    "text": "Okay, that's good to know."
  },
  {
    "start": 3337.58,
    "end": 3338.14,
    "text": "Okay, thank you."
  },
  {
    "start": 3338.18,
    "end": 3341.24,
    "text": "Thanks a lot."
  },
  {
    "start": 3342.38,
    "end": 3345.6,
    "text": "Thank you for listening to this episode of the Epicon Podcast."
  },
  {
    "start": 3346.58,
    "end": 3350.66,
    "text": "Epicon stands for European Palestinian-Israeli Trilateral Dialogue."
  },
  {
    "start": 3351.46,
    "end": 3358.84,
    "text": "an initiative that creates and fosters dialogue between Palestinian and Israeli peace advocates and European opinion leaders."
  },
  {
    "start": 3359.82,
    "end": 3365.26,
    "text": "EPICON is implemented by the Candid Foundation with the financial support of the European Union."
  },
  {
    "start": 3366.2,
    "end": 3369.42,
    "text": "For more information visit the Candid website and follow us"
  },
  {
    "start": 3369.58,
    "end": 3370.28,
    "text": "on our EPICON"
  },
  {
    "start": 3370.38,
    "end": 3378.34,
    "text": "social media accounts linked in the description."
  }
]