[ { "start": 0.0, "end": 6.32, "text": " Hi, my name is Mariam and today I'll be hosting the very first episode of the Epicon podcast." }, { "start": 6.32, "end": 15.36, "text": " Palestinian and Israeli civil society still has agency. Agency overshaping the current realities" }, { "start": 15.36, "end": 22.4, "text": " and the future of Palestine and Israel. Against all odds courageous individuals from both sides" }, { "start": 22.4, "end": 28.64, "text": " are choosing to engage, to defy political stagnation and to present concrete ideas and plans for a" }, { "start": 28.64, "end": 35.76, "text": " peaceful solution. These individuals insist that peace is not simply a diplomatic agreement." }, { "start": 35.76, "end": 41.04, "text": " It must be built on the ground through dialogue, human connection and shared commitment." }, { "start": 41.04, "end": 47.52, "text": " They claim that it is the responsibility of political leaders to listen and to translate" }, { "start": 47.52, "end": 54.32, "text": " their insights and proposals into decision-making and real action. Our Palestinian and Israeli" }, { "start": 54.32, "end": 60.24, "text": " guests on this podcast include former prisoners and soldiers, relatives of hostages, leading" }, { "start": 60.24, "end": 67.2, "text": " peace activists and mediators, scholars, legal experts and more. Voices rarely heard in Europe." }, { "start": 67.2, "end": 73.36, "text": " They bring forward thinking, pragmatic and actionable ideas in response to a central question." }, { "start": 73.36, "end": 75.76, "text": " What can Europe do?" }, { "start": 81.52, "end": 88.56, "text": " Today we are joined by Dr. Jamal Nusebe, a Palestinian-American lawyer, legal scholar and investor." }, { "start": 88.56, "end": 95.68, "text": " He taught law at Al-Quds University in Jerusalem and has been deeply involved in Palestinian affairs" }, { "start": 95.68, "end": 102.72, "text": " since the 90s, including in peace negotiations. Dr. Nusebe has spoken on Middle Eastern affairs" }, { "start": 102.72, "end": 108.4, "text": " in numerous fora, including on Capitol Hill in Washington DC and at the UK House of Lords." }, { "start": 109.28, "end": 114.8, "text": " He is also a frequent commentator and analyst in various English and Arabic-speaking media outlets." }, { "start": 114.8, "end": 122.32, "text": " As a member of the Palestinian Technical Working Group, he co-authored a new working" }, { "start": 122.32, "end": 129.12, "text": " paper titled \"A Palestinian Armistice Plan, Charting a Rights-Based Transition for Palestinian" }, { "start": 129.12, "end": 137.04, "text": " Israeli Peace\" that was published just recently in June 25. This paper presents a comprehensive" }, { "start": 137.04, "end": 142.48, "text": " political roadmap for a permanent ceasefire in the occupied Palestinian territory and Israel," }, { "start": 142.48, "end": 148.16, "text": " as well as for a structured transition period toward a just and durable peace agreement." }, { "start": 148.16, "end": 154.72, "text": " In this episode, Dr. Jamal Nusebe will talk us through the main elements of this proposal." }, { "start": 154.72, "end": 159.68, "text": " We will discuss why it is necessary to structure such plans around Palestinian" }, { "start": 159.68, "end": 165.6, "text": " self-determination and as a rights-based process and how realistic such a framework is." }, { "start": 166.4, "end": 172.16, "text": " We'll also get into the importance of international engagement and specifically address Europe's role." }, { "start": 172.16, "end": 177.36, "text": " It's a pleasure to have you here, Jamal. Thank you, Maryam. Nice to be here." }, { "start": 177.36, "end": 184.4, "text": " Jamal, if you don't mind, let's start with you sharing some personal and professional insights" }, { "start": 184.4, "end": 192.56, "text": " about your involvement with the Palestine question. Sure. So, I was born Palestinian." }, { "start": 193.84, "end": 197.76, "text": " I mean, being Palestinian is something that one is, one doesn't really choose it." }, { "start": 197.76, "end": 208.48, "text": " And I grew up in Jerusalem in the 80s at a time when in Jerusalem, East Jerusalem and where I" }, { "start": 208.48, "end": 214.24, "text": " was living was very much under occupation. It still is. In those days, it was more recognized" }, { "start": 214.24, "end": 220.56, "text": " as such by the world. And one of the things that's actually changed a lot is how the world now perceives" }, { "start": 220.56, "end": 226.24, "text": " Jerusalem as perhaps more Israeli, although on the ground it's not." }, { "start": 226.24, "end": 232.0, "text": " East Jerusalem remains very much a separate entity for those who live there, for the Palestinians" }, { "start": 232.0, "end": 241.6, "text": " who live there. And as a Palestinian growing up under occupation in Jerusalem, I was very" }, { "start": 241.6, "end": 250.16, "text": " aware of the presence of the occupation, the Israeli military and so on, the fact that" }, { "start": 250.16, "end": 256.32, "text": " our lives were extremely restricted in many ways. And as I grew up, the first Intifada began in" }, { "start": 256.32, "end": 266.4, "text": " late 1987 and then it took hold of all of our lives. So, I guess you could say that that" }, { "start": 266.4, "end": 277.92, "text": " the cause of freedom and rights was something that I was born with and was part of my DNA." }, { "start": 279.52, "end": 285.04, "text": " And throughout the rest of my life, I went abroad to study, I went back, I went abroad again, I went" }, { "start": 285.04, "end": 297.28, "text": " back and I've always felt a need, myself personally, to contribute somehow to" }, { "start": 297.28, "end": 306.4, "text": " achieving freedom for the Palestinians, for my people. The last decade or so, I was" }, { "start": 307.04, "end": 314.48, "text": " not involved or not very involved. I had switched to the private sector, I was working in" }, { "start": 314.48, "end": 324.8, "text": " investments and energy and all of these things far away from that. And then really with October 7" }, { "start": 324.8, "end": 334.24, "text": " and the Israeli actions since then, I realized that there was an urgent, I couldn't sit down," }, { "start": 334.24, "end": 342.72, "text": " I mean there was no way that I could just sit by and watch the annihilation of my people and" }, { "start": 342.72, "end": 349.6, "text": " therefore began to think about what I could do to help how one could stop it and how we could" }, { "start": 349.6, "end": 355.76, "text": " also ensure that it wouldn't happen again. And it wouldn't happen again for the Palestinians," }, { "start": 355.76, "end": 362.88, "text": " for the Israelis, how we could finally end this conflict and find a way to live together" }, { "start": 362.88, "end": 368.24, "text": " side by side or together. It actually doesn't really matter how the point is just" }, { "start": 368.24, "end": 374.08, "text": " to find a way to no longer be in conflict so that the next generation doesn't grow up this way," }, { "start": 374.08, "end": 381.92, "text": " so that the next generation grows up with safety and hope and not just a future but actually a" }, { "start": 381.92, "end": 390.0, "text": " safe present. I also have a branch of my family that is in Gaza, unfortunately some of them have" }, { "start": 390.0, "end": 398.16, "text": " been killed in the past year or two and obviously not just that but colleagues and friends or" }, { "start": 398.16, "end": 404.08, "text": " family of colleagues and friends. So this is a personal issue as well as being a kind of national" }, { "start": 404.08, "end": 412.08, "text": " one if you like. Thank you for sharing. Now before we get into the key components of the" }, { "start": 412.08, "end": 420.56, "text": " armistice plan I want to point out that we are recording on the 9th of July just two days after" }, { "start": 420.56, "end": 426.96, "text": " Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was welcomed by US President Donald Trump at the White" }, { "start": 426.96, "end": 434.08, "text": " House. When asked by reporters whether a two-state solution that creates an independent Palestine" }, { "start": 434.08, "end": 441.6, "text": " was possible, Trump said \"I don't know\" and referred the question to Netanyahu who replied" }, { "start": 441.6, "end": 447.44, "text": " and I quote directly \"I think the Palestinians should have all the powers to govern themselves" }, { "start": 447.44, "end": 453.68, "text": " but none of the powers to threaten us. That means a sovereign power like overall security" }, { "start": 453.68, "end": 460.4, "text": " will always remain in our hands. Now that is a fact and no one in Israel will agree to anything else" }, { "start": 460.4, "end": 467.12, "text": " because we don't commit suicide.\" Later he added that another Palestinian state would be a platform" }, { "start": 467.12, "end": 474.32, "text": " to destroy Israel as can be seen with what he called the current Hamas state. What in your" }, { "start": 474.32, "end": 482.8, "text": " opinion are the implications of this, of such statements, of such framing for the future of" }, { "start": 482.8, "end": 493.2, "text": " Palestine? So I mean I would say that I would turn that round against Prime Minister Netanyahu" }, { "start": 493.2, "end": 498.48, "text": " and say I think the Israelis should also have the power to govern their lives but not the power to" }, { "start": 498.48, "end": 510.88, "text": " threaten us. The power to threaten is not actually a civilized thing to have or a civilized way of" }, { "start": 510.88, "end": 518.24, "text": " doing business. What we need and what the world needs and what people tried to do after the Second" }, { "start": 518.24, "end": 526.56, "text": " World War was institute a rules-based order to prevent countries from using power and threat" }, { "start": 526.56, "end": 535.92, "text": " as a means of achieving what they perceive to be their interests. And I think that the attitude" }, { "start": 535.92, "end": 545.84, "text": " that's being portrayed there apart from being paternalistic colonialist and so on is also indicative" }, { "start": 545.84, "end": 559.44, "text": " of a I would say a problematic attitude towards the future of our region. At another level" }, { "start": 561.2, "end": 568.64, "text": " I would also say that it doesn't really matter what Prime Minister Netanyahu thinks" }, { "start": 568.64, "end": 578.72, "text": " that people have a right to be free, that people have a right to self-determination" }, { "start": 578.72, "end": 587.12, "text": " as a people and that they have a right to express themselves in the form of a polity of a state" }, { "start": 587.84, "end": 595.76, "text": " because that's what our system is based on. Whether or not they're occupier in this case" }, { "start": 595.76, "end": 600.8, "text": " Israel thinks that's a good idea. It's not really Israel's choice." }, { "start": 600.8, "end": 613.2, "text": " But if I were to respond also on another point I would say that I don't see a state of Palestine" }, { "start": 614.16, "end": 624.8, "text": " if it is done correctly a real state of Palestine with proper borders along the 1948" }, { "start": 624.8, "end": 633.68, "text": " Armistice Line which are the 1967 borders up to 1967. I don't see that as a source of threat" }, { "start": 633.68, "end": 641.12, "text": " to Israel in any case. I see that as a source of the end of the threat to Israel." }, { "start": 643.12, "end": 650.88, "text": " What Prime Minister Netanyahu has I think failed to understand throughout his many many decades" }, { "start": 650.88, "end": 661.44, "text": " in politics is that Israeli security is not going to be guaranteed unless there is peace." }, { "start": 661.44, "end": 668.8, "text": " So what he needs to understand and what some Israelis already understand" }, { "start": 670.16, "end": 677.2, "text": " but I think we need to get this message through to more of them is that the paradigm needs to change." }, { "start": 677.2, "end": 685.84, "text": " It is peace first and it is the peace that will get you the security that is so much needed" }, { "start": 685.84, "end": 693.28, "text": " and wanted and security by the way is something I don't like the concept of security. I prefer" }, { "start": 693.28, "end": 698.4, "text": " if we're going to use that term I would talk about human security. It's a much broader term," }, { "start": 698.4, "end": 702.96, "text": " it's a much more individual term, it involves things like the ability to have food and shelter" }, { "start": 702.96, "end": 709.84, "text": " and so on and I like the term safety. I want people to feel safe and if we look at the" }, { "start": 709.84, "end": 716.48, "text": " security situation now in Palestine Israel there is a and the people who are the most insecure" }, { "start": 716.48, "end": 723.52, "text": " and who are suffering the most from that lack of security are the Palestinians not the Israelis" }, { "start": 724.88, "end": 729.92, "text": " and they continue to do so every day. I mean we have at the moment we as Palestinians" }, { "start": 729.92, "end": 734.88, "text": " mainly in Gaza but also in the West Bank and Jerusalem are being killed at a rate of almost" }, { "start": 734.88, "end": 743.92, "text": " 100 per day. That's a lot of insecurity believe me. So I would say that we need to shift the" }, { "start": 743.92, "end": 752.8, "text": " paradigm and we need to flip it so that peace comes first and I would point to the fact or two" }, { "start": 752.8, "end": 761.84, "text": " facts. I would point first to the fact that the security paradigm walls fences technology" }, { "start": 761.84, "end": 772.24, "text": " tanks helicopters whatever failed both to detect and to prevent the horrors that were inflicted" }, { "start": 772.24, "end": 782.64, "text": " upon Israel on October 7th by Hamas. They just failed and on the other hand I would also" }, { "start": 782.64, "end": 792.32, "text": " say that the states with which Israel has peace agreements Jordan, Egypt have been a source of" }, { "start": 792.32, "end": 799.12, "text": " comfort and protection to the Israelis even during the last two years of extreme violence" }, { "start": 799.12, "end": 805.68, "text": " and potentially extreme unrest in both of those countries but both the Jordanians and the Egyptians" }, { "start": 805.68, "end": 811.2, "text": " and indeed other countries in the region have helped to provide Israel with a security blanket" }, { "start": 812.16, "end": 822.96, "text": " and to keep it safe despite many popular movements in the opposite direction. So it is their peace" }, { "start": 822.96, "end": 827.68, "text": " agreements the peace agreements they have with Israel that have kept Israel safe." }, { "start": 827.68, "end": 840.8, "text": " What I do wonder is when you say that it doesn't really matter what Netanyahu says like for me it's" }, { "start": 840.8, "end": 850.56, "text": " just the fact that he's sitting there with President Donald Trump who is a big actor in all of this" }, { "start": 850.56, "end": 860.64, "text": " and he's also like not saying anything against it so he would be one to maybe have the power to" }, { "start": 860.64, "end": 871.84, "text": " influence the change that you say is required so this is where I don't understand like I understand" }, { "start": 871.84, "end": 878.4, "text": " like that you say it doesn't really matter what he says but in the end it does somehow matter if" }, { "start": 878.4, "end": 884.0, "text": " no one is speaking against him right. Sure and look from a power perspective you're right I mean" }, { "start": 884.0, "end": 891.84, "text": " Israel is a very powerful country a very powerful army it has controlled dominated occupied in this" }, { "start": 891.84, "end": 902.0, "text": " colonizing our land since decades and we've been trying to get them to stop occupying us through" }, { "start": 902.0, "end": 909.76, "text": " peaceful means for decades as well and it hasn't worked. There is a clear massive imbalance of" }, { "start": 909.76, "end": 917.6, "text": " power Israel is very strongly supported by its allies abroad first and foremost the United States" }, { "start": 917.6, "end": 926.56, "text": " but also European countries and others and and I think of course yes it matters and" }, { "start": 926.56, "end": 936.0, "text": " I am aware very aware that our future as Palestinians depends on us being able to work" }, { "start": 936.0, "end": 946.0, "text": " together with the Israelis to convince the Israelis that we are to use a much abused term I think" }, { "start": 946.0, "end": 951.12, "text": " but it is true partners in peace that doesn't mean that I want to necessarily as I say live with them" }, { "start": 951.12, "end": 959.36, "text": " but that we have to take responsibility for building a better future together individually" }, { "start": 959.36, "end": 971.76, "text": " separately but also to work together towards that outcome and when it comes to the US" }, { "start": 971.76, "end": 976.64, "text": " I think that President Trump has actually shown" }, { "start": 976.64, "end": 988.16, "text": " a lot of ability a lot of interest in resolving the situation and that's something that we haven't" }, { "start": 988.16, "end": 993.76, "text": " seen from a US administration in a while I think he's shown that he has a lot of leverage" }, { "start": 993.76, "end": 1002.72, "text": " and we've seen that both with the first ceasefire which then Israel breached but also with the" }, { "start": 1002.72, "end": 1010.8, "text": " situation in Iran where he was able to call back the Israeli jets that were off to bomb once again" }, { "start": 1010.8, "end": 1015.2, "text": " and he just picked up the phone and called apparently Prime Minister Netanyahu and" }, { "start": 1016.32, "end": 1021.84, "text": " got the jets to turn around so he has the leverage and he's willing to use it and he wants to" }, { "start": 1021.84, "end": 1032.88, "text": " have an outcome that he thinks will hopefully be fitting and sufficient to give him a Nobel Prize" }, { "start": 1032.88, "end": 1041.6, "text": " which is great I mean I would love him to get a Nobel Prize for a peace between the Palestinians" }, { "start": 1041.6, "end": 1046.16, "text": " and the Israelis for a peaceful Middle East but the difficulty that we have here is that we need" }, { "start": 1046.16, "end": 1053.04, "text": " to make sure that what he's doing there is not being diverted he's not being led up the garden" }, { "start": 1053.04, "end": 1061.28, "text": " path by Netanyahu because one thing that we do know is that Netanyahu has since his early days" }, { "start": 1061.28, "end": 1066.4, "text": " in politics done his utmost to undermine the possibility of peace with the Palestinians to" }, { "start": 1066.4, "end": 1072.72, "text": " undermine the possibility of a two-state solution and he's boasted about it I mean he's very proud" }, { "start": 1072.72, "end": 1081.68, "text": " of it he's proud of his achievements in this matter and so my hope is that the US administration" }, { "start": 1081.68, "end": 1089.84, "text": " and President Trump are interested in a peaceful outcome that they know that they have the leverage" }, { "start": 1089.84, "end": 1096.08, "text": " that they want to use and that they can use that they also are interested in a regional peaceful" }, { "start": 1096.08, "end": 1103.2, "text": " outcome as well they have other regional allies not only Israel and those allies also want peace" }, { "start": 1103.2, "end": 1109.04, "text": " and want to enter this conflict on the basis of a Palestinian state along 1967 borders" }, { "start": 1109.04, "end": 1114.96, "text": " Saudi Arabia all of the Arab League has announced that they will happily" }, { "start": 1114.96, "end": 1125.68, "text": " work with and accept Israel as a full member of the region with open economic relations" }, { "start": 1125.68, "end": 1134.56, "text": " and political relations as long as it fulfills this relatively simple condition so I think that" }, { "start": 1134.56, "end": 1143.28, "text": " the US administration could achieve this um what you don't want or what one doesn't want is for them" }, { "start": 1143.28, "end": 1151.68, "text": " to be um as I say misled by by the current Israeli government into putting a band-aid on the situation" }, { "start": 1151.68, "end": 1159.36, "text": " and then and then uh you know hoping for the best because that doesn't work it hasn't worked in the" }, { "start": 1159.36, "end": 1165.36, "text": " past it won't work now and um and I and I really honestly believe apart from the fact that the" }, { "start": 1165.36, "end": 1170.64, "text": " killing in Gaza needs to stop we need to surge humanitarian aid this is not a subject for agreement" }, { "start": 1170.64, "end": 1174.96, "text": " this is just something that needs to happen and if I were President Trump I would just do that now" }, { "start": 1174.96, "end": 1179.6, "text": " because that would be his win I mean imagine he tells Netanyahu look just stop bombing" }, { "start": 1180.96, "end": 1184.88, "text": " stop the bombing take your soldiers out of Gaza they don't need to be in Gaza" }, { "start": 1184.88, "end": 1191.28, "text": " why are they there now nobody's attacking Israel from Gaza the only killing that's" }, { "start": 1191.28, "end": 1195.92, "text": " happening in Gaza is happening inside Gaza they're just shooting people in the streets" }, { "start": 1195.92, "end": 1201.12, "text": " in cafes in hospitals but why do you think he's not saying this" }, { "start": 1201.12, "end": 1210.72, "text": " well maybe he hasn't yet um thought about how this would work so I would suggest that he he" }, { "start": 1210.72, "end": 1216.64, "text": " could read our plan and and and and it might give him some ideas but for me the win would be there" }, { "start": 1216.64, "end": 1224.72, "text": " the win would be to actually not do the same thing that's been tried over the decades in the" }, { "start": 1224.72, "end": 1230.56, "text": " past many times and has always failed the win would be not to do what Prime Minister Netanyahu" }, { "start": 1230.56, "end": 1237.28, "text": " and his extremist government want the US to do because they aren't interested in peace everybody" }, { "start": 1237.28, "end": 1244.96, "text": " knows this what he could do is do his best thinking outside the box which we know he does" }, { "start": 1244.96, "end": 1251.2, "text": " and do things differently and if he were to tell the Israelis just stop pull out of Gaza" }, { "start": 1251.2, "end": 1258.0, "text": " stop the killing in Gaza in the West Bank you pause pause the hostilities no need for an agreement" }, { "start": 1258.0, "end": 1264.88, "text": " and then we can sit down without that and just work out what by the way our in our plan we're" }, { "start": 1264.88, "end": 1272.8, "text": " calling for is a an armistice agreement so a long term cessation of violence and hostilities between" }, { "start": 1272.8, "end": 1278.48, "text": " the Israelis and Palestinians and I say this this by the way that's very important not between Israel" }, { "start": 1278.48, "end": 1287.44, "text": " and Hamas because Hamas is one faction it's one political party um the conflict is not between" }, { "start": 1287.44, "end": 1296.4, "text": " Israel and Hamas the conflict is between Israel and the Palestinians and for a solution to be" }, { "start": 1296.4, "end": 1302.56, "text": " durable even for a ceasefire and cessation of hostilities to be durable it has to be all encompassing" }, { "start": 1302.56, "end": 1308.48, "text": " it has to be holistic it has to be all of Palestine and Israel all of the Palestinians and all of the" }, { "start": 1308.48, "end": 1316.4, "text": " Israelis for now let's take a moment to go over the key components of the armistice plan so unlike" }, { "start": 1316.4, "end": 1321.92, "text": " what we discussed earlier what Netanyahu has said and other proposals that have been made" }, { "start": 1321.92, "end": 1330.32, "text": " your plan outlines a transition that is rooted not in containment but in self-determination" }, { "start": 1330.32, "end": 1340.4, "text": " accountability and international law so I'd like to ask you to explain and briefly elaborate on the" }, { "start": 1340.4, "end": 1351.6, "text": " core elements of your proposal so there's a few basic elements and then there's obviously a lot" }, { "start": 1351.6, "end": 1359.28, "text": " of detail and and then there's an overall point so let me start with the overall point" }, { "start": 1359.28, "end": 1368.8, "text": " what this aims to do what this plan aims to do is not be a peace agreement between Israel and" }, { "start": 1368.8, "end": 1373.76, "text": " Palestine or Israel and the Palestinians we don't believe I don't believe that this is" }, { "start": 1373.76, "end": 1381.76, "text": " a situation where we are ready or able to sign or enter into a peace agreement we don't that the" }, { "start": 1381.76, "end": 1390.16, "text": " level of trauma on the Palestinian side also on the Israeli side and the level of destruction on" }, { "start": 1390.16, "end": 1396.72, "text": " the Palestinian side the level of healing and rebuilding that's going to be needed just again" }, { "start": 1396.72, "end": 1406.24, "text": " starting with basic food and shelter is enormous I mean the mind boggles at the level the scale" }, { "start": 1406.24, "end": 1412.4, "text": " of the destruction right now in Gaza I'm extremely worried because as you know that's also been" }, { "start": 1412.4, "end": 1418.72, "text": " happening in the West Bank it's also if things now stop in Gaza the last time they paused in Gaza" }, { "start": 1418.72, "end": 1425.12, "text": " Israel increased up its operations in the West Bank and also then began to carry out military" }, { "start": 1425.12, "end": 1432.72, "text": " operations in the refugee camps in Tulkerem and Urshams and Jenin so I'm nervous that this will" }, { "start": 1432.72, "end": 1437.68, "text": " get even worse in the West Bank it's on the verge of it it's already pretty bad" }, { "start": 1437.68, "end": 1446.8, "text": " so this is not a situation where either side is able to enter into the contours or the the" }, { "start": 1446.8, "end": 1454.72, "text": " final peace agreement yet what we need is two things I think first basic human security" }, { "start": 1455.2, "end": 1460.0, "text": " the food the shelter the aid but also the the protection from from being killed" }, { "start": 1460.0, "end": 1466.56, "text": " the ability to know that we're going to be alive tomorrow unless obviously" }, { "start": 1466.56, "end": 1475.36, "text": " one can never know that but at least within reason and and so and and that's an essential part of" }, { "start": 1475.36, "end": 1480.64, "text": " this plan sort of guaranteeing that for both for the Israelis also and the Palestinians" }, { "start": 1482.16, "end": 1488.24, "text": " but also then a time period a transitional time period during which this continues" }, { "start": 1488.24, "end": 1494.0, "text": " the safety and security is provided and we're calling for international peacekeepers to do that" }, { "start": 1494.0, "end": 1500.24, "text": " in the West Bank in Gaza and Palestine and Israel along the lines as well and" }, { "start": 1500.24, "end": 1504.72, "text": " this is what will allow the Palestinians and the Israelis" }, { "start": 1505.52, "end": 1513.36, "text": " both first to begin to heal to come down to have some breathing space and to begin to build" }, { "start": 1513.36, "end": 1519.2, "text": " also within their societies and to be able to think more clearly and rationally and hopefully" }, { "start": 1519.2, "end": 1525.04, "text": " hopefully about a future and how they want that future to look so it's only at the end of this" }, { "start": 1525.04, "end": 1531.2, "text": " transition that one would enter into a peace agreement between Palestinians and Israelis" }, { "start": 1531.84, "end": 1539.76, "text": " and at that point it may well be that after the transition period when everything is calm" }, { "start": 1539.76, "end": 1542.32, "text": " that anyone of a number of" }, { "start": 1542.32, "end": 1551.12, "text": " other solutions creative solutions might be the one that is chosen so it could be a two-state" }, { "start": 1551.12, "end": 1555.52, "text": " solution it could be a confederation along the lines of for instance the land for all" }, { "start": 1556.16, "end": 1562.56, "text": " it could be a one-state if that's what people want it's possible but right now we're not there so" }, { "start": 1562.56, "end": 1568.88, "text": " the two the sort of the overarching things are we need to provide safety and security for Palestinians" }, { "start": 1568.88, "end": 1574.72, "text": " and Israelis we're incapable of doing that for ourselves so that needs to be provided from the" }, { "start": 1574.72, "end": 1582.64, "text": " outside by peacekeepers and second that the transitional period is necessary in order for us" }, { "start": 1582.64, "end": 1587.92, "text": " to be able to reach a peace agreement and that transitional period will allow us to be able" }, { "start": 1587.92, "end": 1596.24, "text": " to work on our internal society structures politics reform etc i hope on the Israeli side" }, { "start": 1596.24, "end": 1601.84, "text": " as well but certainly on the Palestinian side and then the third thing is and this is sort of now" }, { "start": 1601.84, "end": 1607.92, "text": " coming a bit lower is well what is it that makes this different from let's say" }, { "start": 1609.76, "end": 1616.56, "text": " the infamous roadmap of the past and you mentioned the term roadmap in your introduction and i" }, { "start": 1616.56, "end": 1623.68, "text": " thought and i don't like roadmap Palestinians don't like roadmap and in fact at some point over" }, { "start": 1623.68, "end": 1628.72, "text": " the past couple of years people were talking about well we need a pathway to a state instead of" }, { "start": 1628.72, "end": 1639.28, "text": " roadmap they're now using pathway we're beyond that the Oslo process that was begun in 1993" }, { "start": 1639.76, "end": 1648.4, "text": " was a roadmap or a pathway or a something that was supposed to lead in the end to a Palestinian" }, { "start": 1648.4, "end": 1657.6, "text": " state it failed and it was supposed to by the way lead to a Palestinian state in 1998 so" }, { "start": 1657.6, "end": 1665.6, "text": " one of the basic premises of this is that of this plan is that the Oslo process is over" }, { "start": 1665.6, "end": 1672.32, "text": " the Oslo agreements are defunct their null and void and what applies therefore is the basic" }, { "start": 1672.32, "end": 1680.08, "text": " international legal structure which means that as reconfirmed by the icj in its advisory opinion" }, { "start": 1680.08, "end": 1688.32, "text": " the whole of 1967 occupied Palestinian territory the west bank including East Jerusalem and Gaza" }, { "start": 1689.36, "end": 1695.68, "text": " are occupied territory and as you know there are many obligations that came out of this" }, { "start": 1695.68, "end": 1702.48, "text": " opinion including the obligation of states such as European states and others to ensure that" }, { "start": 1702.48, "end": 1710.4, "text": " the impact and effects of this of this occupation were countered that that they were not supporting" }, { "start": 1710.4, "end": 1716.56, "text": " this occupation in any way were yet to see how that's going to translate into into action by" }, { "start": 1717.44, "end": 1727.12, "text": " by Europe or others we're definitely seeing action on this front by the way by by other" }, { "start": 1727.12, "end": 1734.0, "text": " countries members of BRICS or the global south you mentioned that Netanyahu is in Washington" }, { "start": 1734.0, "end": 1742.08, "text": " or was in Washington yesterday but also I don't know if you saw the president of Columbia" }, { "start": 1743.12, "end": 1747.52, "text": " wrote an article yesterday talking about a conference that they are organizing on the" }, { "start": 1747.52, "end": 1755.28, "text": " 15th of July in Bogota which is specifically aiming to address this gap in the enforcement" }, { "start": 1755.28, "end": 1761.12, "text": " of international law and the need to reinforce the rules-based system international rules-based" }, { "start": 1761.12, "end": 1775.12, "text": " system in light of how Israel is behaving so yes there are there are I would say there are more" }, { "start": 1775.12, "end": 1782.72, "text": " countries that actually see the need for this and for this law-based structure than than you might" }, { "start": 1782.72, "end": 1790.48, "text": " think and by the way I'm just going to mention that if I were Ukrainian I would be leading this" }, { "start": 1791.12, "end": 1797.04, "text": " charge I would be leading this effort to stand up for international law on the rules-based order" }, { "start": 1797.04, "end": 1805.12, "text": " because that end of Europe which is being protected by Ukraine as I understand from Russia" }, { "start": 1805.12, "end": 1816.8, "text": " that is completely reliant on international law and the illegality of occupation so I'm you know" }, { "start": 1816.8, "end": 1823.76, "text": " so our the third part I'll wrap it up now is is just that we are relying on this international" }, { "start": 1823.76, "end": 1828.88, "text": " law the basis is the occupied territory the occupied Palestinian territory of 19 which was" }, { "start": 1828.88, "end": 1838.08, "text": " occupied in 1967 and we're also saying that a Palestinian state already exists in that territory" }, { "start": 1838.08, "end": 1846.4, "text": " let's talk about reform and political representation your plan highlights the need for reform across" }, { "start": 1846.4, "end": 1853.76, "text": " various sectors in Palestine including PLO reform also technocratic governance and" }, { "start": 1853.76, "end": 1860.32, "text": " as you mentioned earlier even engagement with Hamas could you elaborate on that how do you see" }, { "start": 1860.32, "end": 1868.96, "text": " it working and what should reform actually look like so I'll pick up the last point I just made" }, { "start": 1868.96, "end": 1876.56, "text": " which was that we say a Palestinian state already exists the Palestinian state exists because it" }, { "start": 1876.56, "end": 1882.4, "text": " was declared already by the Palestinians in 1988 it's been recognized by 149 countries or something" }, { "start": 1882.4, "end": 1891.76, "text": " around the world and it is necessary that we start with this because the Palestinian state gives us" }, { "start": 1891.76, "end": 1901.92, "text": " the context in which to both look outwards and look inwards looking outwards it allows us to" }, { "start": 1901.92, "end": 1907.76, "text": " interact with the rest of the world including Israel it gives us a line a borderline which is" }, { "start": 1907.76, "end": 1915.36, "text": " the 1967 line along which peacekeepers can maintain the peace they will also obviously have to be" }, { "start": 1915.36, "end": 1922.24, "text": " inside the West Bank there are settlements there we're not we're being realistic here" }, { "start": 1922.24, "end": 1932.4, "text": " and we have to work out how exactly the the peacekeepers would function within the West Bank" }, { "start": 1932.4, "end": 1941.84, "text": " and around settlement blocks but it is clear that the Palestinian state needs to be there" }, { "start": 1941.84, "end": 1947.12, "text": " because this is the the entity that will be able to request as it has done by the way the presence" }, { "start": 1947.12, "end": 1955.28, "text": " of international peacekeepers and it also provides us that so that's sort of outwards looking but in" }, { "start": 1955.28, "end": 1962.72, "text": " words looking it provides us with two things first it provides the Palestinians with a reassurance" }, { "start": 1962.72, "end": 1972.24, "text": " another form of security and and I mentioned this here because in many of my conversations" }, { "start": 1972.24, "end": 1982.24, "text": " back home people are now the their biggest fear is that we're going to be exterminated wiped out" }, { "start": 1982.24, "end": 1989.2, "text": " and you know that fear is both physical I mean people in Gaza are worried that they will be dead" }, { "start": 1989.92, "end": 1997.2, "text": " by the afternoon or killed but it's also a more general fear that that the Israeli the current" }, { "start": 1997.2, "end": 2005.68, "text": " Israeli government is intent on wiping us out we have we've had many statements we have had many" }, { "start": 2005.68, "end": 2012.56, "text": " televised addresses we've had letters we've had clear statements of intent which is partly why" }, { "start": 2012.56, "end": 2021.92, "text": " obviously the ICC said that there was a plausible plausible case of genocide and and it's in this" }, { "start": 2021.92, "end": 2028.96, "text": " intent this plausible intent that I understand although this is not my specialty but that I" }, { "start": 2028.96, "end": 2033.92, "text": " understand that that they have found that they made that finding on on that basis" }, { "start": 2034.01, "end": 2039.41, "text": " that's intent to do this. The other side of that intent and of the actions" }, { "start": 2039.41, "end": 2045.23, "text": " that we're seeing in Gaza and the West Bank and Jerusalem is the fear, terror." }, { "start": 2045.23, "end": 2054.97, "text": " I mean we're terrified. So the state, the Palestinian state, saying that it" }, { "start": 2054.97, "end": 2061.99, "text": " exists now tells us that at least we will not be wiped off the map. We know" }, { "start": 2061.99, "end": 2067.49, "text": " that this is the last chance. I think the Israeli government is also well aware" }, { "start": 2067.49, "end": 2073.97, "text": " of this. This is the last chance, the last moment when a two-state solution" }, { "start": 2073.97, "end": 2085.73, "text": " which actually has a state of Palestine is possible. And the fear is that there" }, { "start": 2085.73, "end": 2095.69, "text": " will be either no Palestinians left or no Palestine left very soon. So we need" }, { "start": 2095.69, "end": 2100.29, "text": " the reassurance that all of these international legal instruments going" }, { "start": 2100.29, "end": 2106.45, "text": " back to the early UN Security Council resolutions on the illegality of the" }, { "start": 2106.45, "end": 2113.55, "text": " acquisition of territory by force, 242, 338 and all of the" }, { "start": 2113.55, "end": 2119.79, "text": " ICJ decisions and opinions, that these will be implemented and that there is a" }, { "start": 2119.79, "end": 2129.63, "text": " legal basis, a legal guarantee, a legal ground which will not be given up. So it" }, { "start": 2129.63, "end": 2136.17, "text": " is important. It's also important because given what we saw with Oslo and the other" }, { "start": 2136.17, "end": 2142.05, "text": " roadmaps, it's important that the Palestinians know that the state is" }, { "start": 2142.05, "end": 2147.43, "text": " there because then we can work from that basis towards something maybe else," }, { "start": 2147.43, "end": 2152.55, "text": " something better. We can either build that state and we need the state because" }, { "start": 2152.55, "end": 2157.83, "text": " otherwise how are you going to build an economy? What context are you going to" }, { "start": 2157.83, "end": 2162.07, "text": " build an economy in? How can you interact with your neighbors, your" }, { "start": 2162.07, "end": 2167.43, "text": " neighboring countries including Israel if you're not actually a state? And" }, { "start": 2167.43, "end": 2173.29, "text": " equally, how can you rebuild inside? And that's the was a long preamble to the" }, { "start": 2173.29, "end": 2177.81, "text": " response to your question. But this is the base to make reformation possible. It" }, { "start": 2177.81, "end": 2182.25, "text": " is the foundation, it's the platform because at the moment we are in a" }, { "start": 2182.25, "end": 2189.45, "text": " situation where the Palestinian Authority, which was created under" }, { "start": 2189.45, "end": 2196.65, "text": " the Oslo and as a result of the Oslo agreements, is operating with extremely" }, { "start": 2196.65, "end": 2202.63, "text": " limited jurisdiction, even in the West Bank, much more limited even than it was" }, { "start": 2202.63, "end": 2206.17, "text": " supposed to have under the Oslo agreements and certainly much less than a" }, { "start": 2206.17, "end": 2212.71, "text": " Palestinian government ought to have. And we have a PLO which is essentially" }, { "start": 2212.71, "end": 2222.67, "text": " marginalized, sidelined and unreformed. Now we need to bring back the PLO in" }, { "start": 2222.67, "end": 2227.69, "text": " order to make sure that the Palestinians are all represented, Gaza, the West Bank," }, { "start": 2227.69, "end": 2233.05, "text": " Jerusalem, the diaspora, the refugees. And we need to make sure that therefore the" }, { "start": 2233.05, "end": 2239.41, "text": " PLO implements the agreement that it entered into with Hamas and the other" }, { "start": 2239.41, "end": 2245.77, "text": " Palestinian factions about a year ago in Beijing. And this was this was a time" }, { "start": 2245.77, "end": 2252.33, "text": " when Hamas essentially signed up to the PLO political program, which means it" }, { "start": 2252.33, "end": 2257.79, "text": " basically also agrees to a two-state solution and also agrees to hand over" }, { "start": 2257.79, "end": 2266.51, "text": " power to power in Gaza, for instance, legitimate authority to a legitimate" }, { "start": 2266.51, "end": 2272.79, "text": " Palestinian government. So that agreement is somehow hanging, it hasn't been" }, { "start": 2272.79, "end": 2278.67, "text": " implemented. One of the things that we talk about in the plan in a very early" }, { "start": 2278.67, "end": 2283.53, "text": " stage following the immediate cessation of hostilities in the surge of aid is to" }, { "start": 2283.53, "end": 2288.63, "text": " bring in Hamas and the other factions under the umbrella of the PLO to" }, { "start": 2288.63, "end": 2294.29, "text": " implement the Beijing agreement and we propose a more practical mechanism, we" }, { "start": 2294.29, "end": 2299.17, "text": " call it a factions agreement, to give teeth, if you like, to the" }, { "start": 2299.17, "end": 2305.37, "text": " Beijing declaration to make sure that it functions. And we see this as the" }, { "start": 2305.37, "end": 2310.63, "text": " beginning of the process of reform. So you start by including Hamas and the" }, { "start": 2310.63, "end": 2316.03, "text": " factions under the PLO. The PLO can then enter into an agreement on behalf of" }, { "start": 2316.03, "end": 2319.83, "text": " everybody with the Israelis and that agreement would be an armistice" }, { "start": 2319.83, "end": 2324.63, "text": " agreement. And it would be an armistice agreement that basically says, look" }, { "start": 2324.63, "end": 2328.11, "text": " there's Palestine, there's Israel, Palestinians and the Israelis are" }, { "start": 2328.11, "end": 2331.07, "text": " agreeing to an armistice, we're not going to kill each other, we're not going to" }, { "start": 2331.07, "end": 2335.23, "text": " fight with each other, and that's going to be guaranteed by the peacekeepers for" }, { "start": 2335.23, "end": 2340.87, "text": " the next two or three years. The peacekeepers are? International. They can" }, { "start": 2340.87, "end": 2347.81, "text": " be Arab led, they can be U.S. led, they can be European led, they can be, they" }, { "start": 2347.81, "end": 2352.45, "text": " should ideally have a UN mandate, but whether they are actually UN blue" }, { "start": 2352.45, "end": 2357.61, "text": " helmets or some other multilateral force, I think the key element there is that" }, { "start": 2357.61, "end": 2363.93, "text": " they are UN mandated. We don't want, and that's actually become even more obvious" }, { "start": 2363.93, "end": 2369.99, "text": " in the last few months because what you really don't want is some opaque" }, { "start": 2369.99, "end": 2377.61, "text": " internationally dubious group of contractors to come in under a name" }, { "start": 2377.61, "end": 2383.43, "text": " like the so-called Gaza Humanitarian Foundation and start taking things" }, { "start": 2383.43, "end": 2389.75, "text": " over. We need people to come in who are proper peacekeepers, who abide" }, { "start": 2389.75, "end": 2394.53, "text": " by the rule of law, who understand why they're there, who understand what" }, { "start": 2394.53, "end": 2398.53, "text": " values they are representing and what values they are also transmitting to the" }, { "start": 2398.53, "end": 2404.63, "text": " people they work with on the ground. So for me the United Nations is by far the" }, { "start": 2404.63, "end": 2411.33, "text": " best qualified on that side. I think that the U.S. also has a lot of experience" }, { "start": 2411.33, "end": 2417.53, "text": " with having boots on the ground and could work pretty well in a context" }, { "start": 2417.53, "end": 2421.75, "text": " where it also had regional partners and allies who have said they would be" }, { "start": 2421.75, "end": 2427.39, "text": " happy to support, I don't know, the Emirates, Qatar, Jordan, Egypt have" }, { "start": 2427.39, "end": 2432.27, "text": " already been helping, so there's a lot of ways this could pan out, but they" }, { "start": 2432.27, "end": 2435.45, "text": " need to come in and they need to have a proper UN mandate, they need to be" }, { "start": 2435.45, "end": 2440.19, "text": " transparent and clear and they need to be doing a good job of monitoring and" }, { "start": 2440.19, "end": 2446.99, "text": " ideally actually enforcing, making sure that there are no breaches of the" }, { "start": 2446.99, "end": 2457.05, "text": " armistice. And you took me away from the sort of internal stuff as well, but it is" }, { "start": 2457.05, "end": 2461.61, "text": " important that you have the political context, so the state and the inclusion" }, { "start": 2461.61, "end": 2466.97, "text": " of everybody in the PLO, in order also to legitimize the peacekeepers and what" }, { "start": 2466.97, "end": 2472.81, "text": " comes next. Because what you don't want is for the peacekeepers to be viewed as" }, { "start": 2472.81, "end": 2476.69, "text": " an extension of Israeli occupation. The peacekeepers have to come in at the" }, { "start": 2476.69, "end": 2481.47, "text": " request of the Palestinians, to protect the Palestinians and the Israelis, of" }, { "start": 2481.47, "end": 2486.19, "text": " course, but they have to be there as something different, they have to be" }, { "start": 2486.19, "end": 2493.47, "text": " there as actually an expression of Palestinian sovereignty and not as a" }, { "start": 2493.47, "end": 2500.11, "text": " denial of it. So while all of this stands in major contrast to other plans that" }, { "start": 2500.11, "end": 2506.23, "text": " seek to avoid Palestinian leadership entirely, which is of course an important" }, { "start": 2506.23, "end": 2511.87, "text": " point, I'd like to get back to a question that we only touched on briefly. So" }, { "start": 2511.87, "end": 2517.73, "text": " what would be the ultimate outcome of this armistice? You mentioned the" }, { "start": 2517.73, "end": 2522.13, "text": " possibility of a two-state solution or perhaps a land for all and there are" }, { "start": 2522.13, "end": 2528.29, "text": " various ideas out there, but in your plan do you outline a specific, concrete" }, { "start": 2528.29, "end": 2535.81, "text": " outcome that you see as most likely or do you, for example, address the two-state" }, { "start": 2535.81, "end": 2541.75, "text": " solution directly? In the plan we're very deliberately and we're very" }, { "start": 2541.75, "end": 2548.59, "text": " clear about being agnostic about what the final peace agreement looks like." }, { "start": 2548.59, "end": 2557.39, "text": " There's no reason to preempt it at the minute and I can maybe imagine, but I" }, { "start": 2557.39, "end": 2562.03, "text": " don't know if I can imagine enough, what it would be like to be in a situation of" }, { "start": 2562.03, "end": 2568.45, "text": " actual calm and safety for three or four years, or how many, let's say three" }, { "start": 2568.45, "end": 2573.37, "text": " years, and have freedom of political expression and all of this happening at" }, { "start": 2573.37, "end": 2578.09, "text": " the same time, I don't know what people will end up choosing or where they'll" }, { "start": 2578.09, "end": 2583.69, "text": " decide to go and I don't want to preempt it. But I would also say something" }, { "start": 2583.69, "end": 2589.45, "text": " else, which is, and I think I said it with you before, maybe in the room, not here," }, { "start": 2589.45, "end": 2598.15, "text": " but you know peace isn't actually the end, peace is just the beginning, it's a" }, { "start": 2598.15, "end": 2603.83, "text": " required necessity, it's a need to be able to do things, to be able to build," }, { "start": 2603.83, "end": 2609.71, "text": " to be able to have a life, to be able to think freely and live happily. Peace is" }, { "start": 2609.71, "end": 2613.81, "text": " not some faraway goal, peace is something you have to have in order to do" }, { "start": 2613.81, "end": 2623.45, "text": " everything, and so peace is not the solution, peace is a need so that we can" }, { "start": 2623.45, "end": 2630.49, "text": " build a future, and there is no point, I think, at which we will know that we have" }, { "start": 2630.49, "end": 2636.45, "text": " a solution, we will just be at peace and we will be living normal lives, and then" }, { "start": 2636.45, "end": 2639.85, "text": " at some point we'll realize that actually things are okay, and this is I" }, { "start": 2639.85, "end": 2648.37, "text": " think important because the same applies to the two-state solution. I think that" }, { "start": 2648.37, "end": 2657.93, "text": " it's important to start with the two states, because at the moment that is" }, { "start": 2657.93, "end": 2665.17, "text": " the most efficient way of giving both peoples a sense of security and safety" }, { "start": 2665.17, "end": 2669.33, "text": " and a political framework that allows them to express themselves, and by the" }, { "start": 2669.33, "end": 2673.61, "text": " way the Israelis express themselves in Israel and so on, and I'm not going to" }, { "start": 2673.61, "end": 2678.13, "text": " go into the difficult debates around Palestinians who have Israeli citizenship," }, { "start": 2678.13, "end": 2683.41, "text": " the Israeli Palestinian citizens of Israel who are struggling with that" }, { "start": 2683.41, "end": 2687.29, "text": " self-expression within Israel, but leaving that aside for now, the" }, { "start": 2687.29, "end": 2694.85, "text": " Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem need to have a polity in" }, { "start": 2694.85, "end": 2700.01, "text": " which to express themselves, and so do by the way the Palestinians who are" }, { "start": 2700.01, "end": 2705.57, "text": " abroad, the ones who are outside Palestine, Israel, the ones who are still in" }, { "start": 2705.57, "end": 2711.37, "text": " refugee camps in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and who are just scattered around the" }, { "start": 2711.37, "end": 2718.01, "text": " world, and the two polities for those expressions are the state, for" }, { "start": 2718.01, "end": 2724.09, "text": " those who are inside the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza, and the PLO as an" }, { "start": 2724.09, "end": 2730.85, "text": " expression of the entire people, and that has to run parallel until such time as" }, { "start": 2730.85, "end": 2736.37, "text": " the final peace agreement is signed, but in the meantime what you're doing by" }, { "start": 2736.37, "end": 2743.65, "text": " having a state first, not at the end, is you're saying that part of the solution" }, { "start": 2743.65, "end": 2749.49, "text": " is here, what we're talking about is then how it works, how that state is going" }, { "start": 2749.49, "end": 2753.05, "text": " to come into existence, how it's going to operate, how it's going to interact" }, { "start": 2753.05, "end": 2760.25, "text": " with Israel and its neighbors, and that really is what the solution is. It's the" }, { "start": 2760.25, "end": 2765.81, "text": " development into the future, the building of bridges and ties, the building" }, { "start": 2765.81, "end": 2770.41, "text": " of infrastructure, and the building of the bases on which you have" }, { "start": 2770.41, "end": 2778.65, "text": " that future. So as you say that peace is a necessity to build a future, how if" }, { "start": 2778.65, "end": 2784.17, "text": " peace is achieved, how will it be kept? Can we make sure that peace will last?" }, { "start": 2784.17, "end": 2795.93, "text": " I think nobody can ever be sure of anything, but I would say that, and this" }, { "start": 2795.93, "end": 2803.93, "text": " depends on how you understand the reason for the conflict, so I do not see" }, { "start": 2803.93, "end": 2810.13, "text": " this as, I don't, this is not a religious conflict. Palestinians have no" }, { "start": 2810.13, "end": 2817.17, "text": " problem with Jews, I have no problem with Jews. Palestinians were, I mean" }, { "start": 2817.17, "end": 2822.57, "text": " Palestinians are a multicultural, multi-religious civilization that in the" }, { "start": 2822.57, "end": 2826.77, "text": " past until the creation of the state of Israel was not only Muslim and Christian" }, { "start": 2826.77, "end": 2833.69, "text": " but also Jewish, so this is not a religious conflict and the fact that it" }, { "start": 2833.69, "end": 2842.61, "text": " is becoming increasingly religious is an issue. We need to address that just as" }, { "start": 2842.61, "end": 2849.05, "text": " we need to address all the extremism that we see also now on the Israeli side" }, { "start": 2849.05, "end": 2854.21, "text": " with this sort of the messianic hilltop youth and so on. We need to address that" }, { "start": 2854.21, "end": 2861.05, "text": " and the only way that I can see to address that is through providing people" }, { "start": 2861.05, "end": 2869.37, "text": " with hope, a real hope, I mean not just some vague thing but actually a life in" }, { "start": 2869.37, "end": 2878.05, "text": " which they can live free with dignity and express themselves and work towards" }, { "start": 2878.05, "end": 2885.57, "text": " something that will be better for them in the future. So for me this context, this" }, { "start": 2885.57, "end": 2891.25, "text": " structure is how you deal with the possibility of future conflict, it's how" }, { "start": 2891.25, "end": 2896.25, "text": " you deal, now you won't deal with everyone, there will be people who are angry," }, { "start": 2896.25, "end": 2900.93, "text": " there will be people who want to spoil, there will be people who, and I think" }, { "start": 2900.93, "end": 2910.05, "text": " this is bound to be the case, but I also think that in the case of a, well in the" }, { "start": 2910.05, "end": 2914.25, "text": " case of this plan for instance, if you actually have a Palestinian state" }, { "start": 2914.25, "end": 2919.61, "text": " recognized on those borders with the peace being kept by international" }, { "start": 2919.61, "end": 2924.45, "text": " peacekeepers and the ability to begin to express yourself as a Palestinian through" }, { "start": 2924.45, "end": 2926.89, "text": " these mechanisms that we have that we're putting in place for the" }, { "start": 2926.89, "end": 2931.21, "text": " transitional period like citizens assemblies and other forms of citizen" }, { "start": 2931.21, "end": 2942.81, "text": " participation and oversight, then you have a strong interest in building what" }, { "start": 2942.81, "end": 2948.65, "text": " you have, nobody wants to keep fighting, the Gazans don't want to be bombed" }, { "start": 2948.65, "end": 2952.85, "text": " every day nor do the people in the West Bank want to have their houses burned" }, { "start": 2952.85, "end": 2959.05, "text": " down by settlers every day, people want to be able to have normal lives and" }, { "start": 2959.05, "end": 2969.61, "text": " therefore in my view you would actually find a surge of support for a, for this" }, { "start": 2969.61, "end": 2976.09, "text": " structure as it stands and also for continuing and maintaining a peaceful" }, { "start": 2976.09, "end": 2983.81, "text": " situation, so you're addressing the root causes of the violence as opposed to" }, { "start": 2983.81, "end": 2991.33, "text": " trying to, I don't know, fight people into a corner and and and I would say if you" }, { "start": 2991.33, "end": 3000.37, "text": " flip it, if you don't do something like this, if you don't tell the Palestinians" }, { "start": 3000.37, "end": 3007.49, "text": " okay, you know what, international law is clear, you have waited too long, you've" }, { "start": 3007.49, "end": 3014.01, "text": " made so many concessions, you've suffered so much, it's enough, you have your state" }, { "start": 3014.01, "end": 3019.71, "text": " and we're going to protect it, 67 borders, that's what everybody agreed and" }, { "start": 3019.71, "end": 3025.85, "text": " that's what the law says is fair, so there you go, if you don't do this, then" }, { "start": 3025.85, "end": 3031.77, "text": " what you're doing is telling the Palestinians that it's basically, there's" }, { "start": 3031.77, "end": 3038.15, "text": " only one way that they will ever be free and if it's not going to be through law" }, { "start": 3038.15, "end": 3043.25, "text": " negotiations then you're going to push everybody into militarization and not" }, { "start": 3043.25, "end": 3048.69, "text": " just in Palestine but also further afield and and and that will lead to" }, { "start": 3048.69, "end": 3055.01, "text": " regional destabilization and it will lead to the region plunging into a mess, a" }, { "start": 3055.01, "end": 3063.69, "text": " quagmire, which it will take us decades to get out of, so the two sides of that" }, { "start": 3063.69, "end": 3068.43, "text": " are one, I think that you need to provide this context and you need to give" }, { "start": 3068.43, "end": 3072.15, "text": " people a sense that they're being treated fairly and that they don't have to" }, { "start": 3072.15, "end": 3077.87, "text": " worry about being wiped off the map anymore, it's fine and that gives the" }, { "start": 3077.87, "end": 3083.25, "text": " support to the peace and the end of hostilities and takes away hopefully" }, { "start": 3083.25, "end": 3088.17, "text": " and over time will take away more of the reasons for for conflict and violence" }, { "start": 3088.17, "end": 3092.13, "text": " with Israel but also the alternative to that is if you don't do it and if you" }, { "start": 3092.13, "end": 3095.63, "text": " don't do it very soon because this is pretty much the last chance, as most" }, { "start": 3095.63, "end": 3100.73, "text": " people are saying and know, then you're going to say to the Palestinians and" }, { "start": 3100.73, "end": 3105.17, "text": " to everybody else, forget international law, forget diplomacy and negotiations," }, { "start": 3105.17, "end": 3110.47, "text": " it's all a joke, you're going to either live subjugated under somebody's boot," }, { "start": 3110.47, "end": 3115.95, "text": " watching your land, your homes, your culture, your civilization be wiped off" }, { "start": 3115.95, "end": 3123.11, "text": " the map or you're going to get up and do what everybody I think would be brought" }, { "start": 3123.11, "end": 3128.47, "text": " up to do in that case, which is resist. I understand that you're implying that" }, { "start": 3128.47, "end": 3136.51, "text": " peace is not a matter of destiny but a question of political will, so what in" }, { "start": 3136.51, "end": 3144.49, "text": " your opinion is the main contributor to peace? Agency, it's agency and you know I" }, { "start": 3144.49, "end": 3150.05, "text": " can tell you that as Palestinians we are victims and we have been suffering" }, { "start": 3150.05, "end": 3154.69, "text": " and and and but I don't want to be a victim, I want to be a protagonist, I" }, { "start": 3154.69, "end": 3159.55, "text": " want to, being free means taking responsibility for things and acting," }, { "start": 3159.55, "end": 3162.99, "text": " that's what being free is, being free isn't sitting down and waiting for" }, { "start": 3162.99, "end": 3167.35, "text": " someone to do something, tell you what to do, you know I can be free in that way" }, { "start": 3167.35, "end": 3172.27, "text": " in a prison cell, I can be responsible for what my actions are within a jail, the" }, { "start": 3172.27, "end": 3177.43, "text": " fact is I'm still in a jail and occupation is a jail, it's a jail which" }, { "start": 3177.43, "end": 3181.35, "text": " controls all of the outer bounds of the lives of a Palestinian plus a lot of" }, { "start": 3181.35, "end": 3185.21, "text": " what they do inside, in Gaza they were even controlling how many calories went" }, { "start": 3185.21, "end": 3195.01, "text": " in every day, I mean for 20 years almost, so yes and I think that by the way even" }, { "start": 3195.01, "end": 3203.17, "text": " despite the deficiencies of the Oslo structures and and the agreements and" }, { "start": 3203.17, "end": 3210.65, "text": " and and and the difficulties that we faced with the occupation during that" }, { "start": 3210.65, "end": 3215.59, "text": " time there was still an extraordinary amount of Palestinian building and" }, { "start": 3215.59, "end": 3220.95, "text": " Palestinian development, building meaning building institutions and things," }, { "start": 3220.95, "end": 3227.59, "text": " Palestinian development and Palestinian agency, now the context that that was" }, { "start": 3227.59, "end": 3236.59, "text": " being done in was extremely minimal, it was a slightly larger jail, we had a few" }, { "start": 3236.59, "end": 3245.41, "text": " more privileges but it gives me hope that the Palestinians can build something" }, { "start": 3245.41, "end": 3250.93, "text": " great, it gives me hope that the Palestinians are more than capable of" }, { "start": 3250.93, "end": 3257.69, "text": " constructing a state that is functioning and I for one really want" }, { "start": 3257.69, "end": 3263.73, "text": " whatever we build to be something that we can be proud of but also that the" }, { "start": 3263.73, "end": 3267.95, "text": " world can look at and say wow that's how that's how things should be you know" }, { "start": 3267.95, "end": 3275.27, "text": " this is this is our opportunity, if it's a new state coming out of nothing and we" }, { "start": 3275.27, "end": 3281.19, "text": " have a chance to do it we should do it right, we should make it as efficient, as" }, { "start": 3281.19, "end": 3295.55, "text": " effective, as transparent and democratic, as prosperous and successful as it can be" }, { "start": 3295.55, "end": 3300.43, "text": " it should be an example to state, that's what I want my Palestine to be, my" }, { "start": 3300.43, "end": 3306.01, "text": " Palestine has to be that and therefore I am frustrated with the with the" }, { "start": 3306.01, "end": 3311.75, "text": " current leadership obviously, I am frustrated with the current situation" }, { "start": 3311.75, "end": 3317.79, "text": " that we've been pushed into by the Oslo Accords and the situation with Israel" }, { "start": 3317.79, "end": 3321.99, "text": " in the intervening years and I think it's extremely important that as we move" }, { "start": 3321.99, "end": 3326.79, "text": " forward if we have this context and I do hope that we'll be able to move forward" }, { "start": 3326.79, "end": 3330.87, "text": " in this direction and I understand that the Israelis will, this current Israeli" }, { "start": 3330.87, "end": 3335.81, "text": " government at least, will find it difficult but I have hope that many" }, { "start": 3335.81, "end": 3340.57, "text": " other Israelis will see why it is necessary and good but if we do move" }, { "start": 3340.57, "end": 3345.97, "text": " forward then we need to make sure that we build in and that's also in the plan a" }, { "start": 3345.97, "end": 3355.17, "text": " way of avoiding the pitfalls of Oslo, all of the ones that we've seen including" }, { "start": 3355.17, "end": 3360.09, "text": " potential corruption, including ensuring more citizen involvement in" }, { "start": 3360.09, "end": 3369.55, "text": " governance including and leading up to proper elections, real elections both" }, { "start": 3369.55, "end": 3373.63, "text": " for the Palestinians in Palestine, for the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem, for" }, { "start": 3373.63, "end": 3377.95, "text": " the Palestinian state but also for the PLO as a representative of all the" }, { "start": 3377.95, "end": 3381.75, "text": " Palestinians because these are two entities which are very far from being" }, { "start": 3381.75, "end": 3388.19, "text": " democratically representative and I believe that the Palestinians, the" }, { "start": 3388.19, "end": 3392.73, "text": " suffering maybe makes them victims but I also think that it means that we" }, { "start": 3392.73, "end": 3397.53, "text": " deserve better. I think that the Palestinians deserve better than to" }, { "start": 3397.53, "end": 3402.65, "text": " be given a new governor at some point and who's going to be placed in there by" }, { "start": 3402.65, "end": 3406.65, "text": " somebody else and who's going to just keep things the way they are. We deserve," }, { "start": 3406.65, "end": 3412.49, "text": " we deserve more and I'm not sitting here sort of, I'm not a" }, { "start": 3412.49, "end": 3419.31, "text": " supplicant, I'm not asking for more, I'm saying we will build better and we will" }, { "start": 3419.31, "end": 3426.57, "text": " get more and you know in the end what we are asking for and through this plan" }, { "start": 3426.57, "end": 3432.83, "text": " we're helping to show how you can get rid of the prison that surrounds us and" }, { "start": 3432.83, "end": 3439.99, "text": " allow us to begin to build a free house let's say but in the absence of this" }, { "start": 3439.99, "end": 3446.33, "text": " plan as I say then there is no choice but to keep banging on the prison door." }, { "start": 3446.33, "end": 3453.37, "text": " We've seen that states like Spain, Ireland, Norway, they recognized Palestine" }, { "start": 3453.37, "end": 3460.15, "text": " in recent months which I wonder do you see it as something" }, { "start": 3460.15, "end": 3466.55, "text": " symbolical, is it like does it show political will or like in the end what" }, { "start": 3466.55, "end": 3473.27, "text": " is the role of Europe in all of this, what can and what should they do to" }, { "start": 3473.27, "end": 3481.31, "text": " support Palestinian self-determination? I mean so answer the first part yes it's" }, { "start": 3481.31, "end": 3487.17, "text": " extremely important and it is enormously appreciated because if nothing else it" }, { "start": 3487.17, "end": 3490.31, "text": " tells the Palestinians that they're not alone and they're not forgotten and I" }, { "start": 3490.31, "end": 3496.53, "text": " think that for those who are stuck in Gaza to hear that a country like Spain" }, { "start": 3496.53, "end": 3502.19, "text": " or Norway has stepped up and seen them means an enormous amount it doesn't" }, { "start": 3502.19, "end": 3508.35, "text": " obviously they need food and they need shelter and they need medicines I'm not" }, { "start": 3508.35, "end": 3512.55, "text": " going to kind of go over this and I know but I have to repeat it because it is" }, { "start": 3512.55, "end": 3520.75, "text": " just but it is important ma'am it is extremely important and but it's not" }, { "start": 3520.75, "end": 3527.31, "text": " the only thing because taking the recognition step is ideally should be" }, { "start": 3527.31, "end": 3531.43, "text": " done in the form again that that we put forward in the plan meaning you should" }, { "start": 3531.43, "end": 3536.17, "text": " then take the necessary legal consequences of that to the next step so" }, { "start": 3536.17, "end": 3538.75, "text": " what does that mean there's a Palestinian state the Palestinian state is" }, { "start": 3538.75, "end": 3544.77, "text": " under occupation it's under attack how do we as let's say now I'm speaking as a" }, { "start": 3544.77, "end": 3549.67, "text": " European nation well the ICJ said this is under occupation we say this is a" }, { "start": 3549.67, "end": 3553.41, "text": " Palestinian state under occupation the Palestinian state is requesting peace" }, { "start": 3553.41, "end": 3557.61, "text": " keepers it's requesting help so there are different ways that we need to" }, { "start": 3557.61, "end": 3562.21, "text": " approach this but definitely the legal the legal pathways clear politically" }, { "start": 3562.21, "end": 3571.01, "text": " it's a little bit more fraught but at least and Spain has begun to do this" }, { "start": 3571.01, "end": 3579.21, "text": " stop supporting the Israeli government in its actions at least stop providing" }, { "start": 3579.21, "end": 3587.39, "text": " arms at least put sanctions on those members of of the Israeli government" }, { "start": 3587.39, "end": 3593.59, "text": " that are let's say beyond the pale at the very least at least apply" }, { "start": 3593.59, "end": 3600.63, "text": " international law and enforce the warrants of the International Criminal" }, { "start": 3600.63, "end": 3608.31, "text": " Court which really it should not be a request this isn't a request from the" }, { "start": 3608.31, "end": 3612.29, "text": " Palestinians this is a a legal requirement by an international body" }, { "start": 3612.29, "end": 3617.49, "text": " which was created by treaty in 1998 by all of these countries to great fanfare" }, { "start": 3617.49, "end": 3621.99, "text": " everybody was extremely proud and extremely happy that this International" }, { "start": 3621.99, "end": 3629.25, "text": " Criminal Court had been created and now suddenly and and make sure at the very" }, { "start": 3629.25, "end": 3634.11, "text": " least that Europe stands up for the international legal order because I" }, { "start": 3634.11, "end": 3643.23, "text": " think that this is a moment that Europe is about to miss the world from my humble" }, { "start": 3643.23, "end": 3648.63, "text": " perspective looks to me like the world is teetering it's it's not sure which way" }, { "start": 3648.63, "end": 3652.63, "text": " it's going it looks like the international legal order to the extent" }, { "start": 3652.63, "end": 3661.63, "text": " there was one is collapsing maybe it's already collapsed and you have a" }, { "start": 3661.63, "end": 3667.95, "text": " resurgence of power politics of real politic bombing and so on and so forth" }, { "start": 3667.95, "end": 3673.75, "text": " how and at the same time you have a whole enormous part of the world which" }, { "start": 3673.75, "end": 3679.71, "text": " we're not talking about yet here the global south some of whom some of you" }, { "start": 3679.71, "end": 3682.71, "text": " know some of whose members some of whose countries are actually very powerful" }, { "start": 3682.71, "end": 3688.71, "text": " economically who care about the rules-based order it's part of their" }, { "start": 3688.71, "end": 3693.35, "text": " DNA they've you know they really want it to be the case they don't want to" }, { "start": 3693.35, "end": 3698.87, "text": " let it go and you've got in the middle of all of this you've got Europe Europe" }, { "start": 3698.87, "end": 3706.03, "text": " which is an international entity it's not even a nation Europe is founded by" }, { "start": 3706.03, "end": 3710.19, "text": " international law it's based on international law it has to uphold" }, { "start": 3710.19, "end": 3715.51, "text": " international law because if treaties mean nothing then why wouldn't I know" }, { "start": 3715.51, "end": 3720.99, "text": " Italy walk away from Europe tomorrow what are the consequences so you have to" }, { "start": 3720.99, "end": 3729.43, "text": " and you can as European as Europeans actually hold on to reinforce that" }, { "start": 3729.43, "end": 3738.59, "text": " system and potentially become and play a leading role in this world order which" }, { "start": 3738.59, "end": 3744.39, "text": " is based on rules and stuck structures and systems that seemed to make sense and" }, { "start": 3744.39, "end": 3749.67, "text": " seem to make sense to the majority of people in the world so I would say the" }, { "start": 3749.67, "end": 3758.43, "text": " role of Europe in this recognizing the occupation is a very good start" }, { "start": 3758.43, "end": 3762.99, "text": " recognizing that there is a state of Palestine is another important thing" }, { "start": 3762.99, "end": 3766.75, "text": " recognizing that there are consequences that flow from this and how to end those" }, { "start": 3766.75, "end": 3775.19, "text": " consequences is another thing acting on the basis of the Israeli actions in" }, { "start": 3775.19, "end": 3779.43, "text": " Gaza and the West Bank whether you consider them genocidal or not" }, { "start": 3779.43, "end": 3785.71, "text": " certainly they are heading and seem to represent many different types of war" }, { "start": 3785.71, "end": 3795.71, "text": " crime do that prevent them don't support them don't send weapons in let's see" }, { "start": 3795.71, "end": 3807.23, "text": " some consequences and don't don't assume that by not doing anything you're" }, { "start": 3807.23, "end": 3814.63, "text": " staying out of it because you're not Europe is deeply involved both in the" }, { "start": 3814.63, "end": 3819.83, "text": " creation of Israel and the reason and causes and justification for its creation" }, { "start": 3819.83, "end": 3829.23, "text": " but also for the justification of its morally abhorrent behavior so I'll say" }, { "start": 3829.23, "end": 3837.39, "text": " look with regards to Europe I'll give you an answer a little bit like the one" }, { "start": 3837.39, "end": 3843.23, "text": " I gave about Netanyahu and the state I think there are things that seem to be" }, { "start": 3843.23, "end": 3848.19, "text": " the things that are talked about that may be easier or harder like the" }, { "start": 3848.19, "end": 3856.03, "text": " association agreement or sanctioning violent settlers or or and then there's" }, { "start": 3856.03, "end": 3862.43, "text": " if you want the truth what I think Europe should do and I think that is" }, { "start": 3862.43, "end": 3867.39, "text": " probably politically unrealistic but it is being seen in countries like Spain" }, { "start": 3867.39, "end": 3873.63, "text": " and Norway you have to stand up for what is right and stand against what is wrong" }, { "start": 3873.63, "end": 3879.19, "text": " and in this particular case the right and the wrong are extremely clear meaning" }, { "start": 3879.19, "end": 3884.59, "text": " that there is no way that what Israel is doing in Gaza right now or in the West" }, { "start": 3884.59, "end": 3889.23, "text": " Bank for that matter is right so you have to stop it you have to call it out at" }, { "start": 3889.23, "end": 3893.95, "text": " every single point you have to do everything you can to prevent it from" }, { "start": 3893.95, "end": 3896.91, "text": " happening you have to do everything you can to make sure that you are not" }, { "start": 3896.91, "end": 3903.27, "text": " allowing it or supporting it supporting it in happening and it may well be that" }, { "start": 3903.27, "end": 3907.35, "text": " a discussion about whether or not to discuss the suspension of the" }, { "start": 3907.35, "end": 3912.51, "text": " association agreement with Israel is a step in that direction I don't think" }, { "start": 3912.51, "end": 3920.43, "text": " it's sufficient nor do I believe that acting in these very small steps is in" }, { "start": 3920.43, "end": 3925.87, "text": " the advantage or interest of either Europe or Israel because the longer this" }, { "start": 3925.87, "end": 3930.87, "text": " goes on the worse it is going to be for Israel the more destabilized the region" }, { "start": 3930.87, "end": 3935.31, "text": " will be the more misery and hunger and the more that's going to have to be done" }, { "start": 3935.31, "end": 3941.75, "text": " to rebuild and reconstruct and fix and unless we fix it now meaning unless" }, { "start": 3941.75, "end": 3947.47, "text": " Europe really takes active steps now towards again if you come back to my" }, { "start": 3947.47, "end": 3954.51, "text": " plan what we're suggesting is the way out then this is the last moment that" }, { "start": 3954.51, "end": 3957.75, "text": " this will be able to happen and then after that you're going to have another" }, { "start": 3957.75, "end": 3964.23, "text": " series of conflicts wars destabilization refugees coming into Europe" }, { "start": 3964.23, "end": 3971.79, "text": " trade routes blocked in the Strait of Hormuz and and the Red Sea and and and" }, { "start": 3971.79, "end": 3976.55, "text": " so I would say" }, { "start": 3978.83, "end": 3989.35, "text": " what we need to see is real leadership we need to see people taking stands and" }, { "start": 3989.35, "end": 3995.27, "text": " this is a very easy place a very easy issue on which to take a stand because" }, { "start": 3995.27, "end": 3999.55, "text": " I believe it is one of the few issues where doing the right thing morally is" }, { "start": 3999.55, "end": 4005.79, "text": " also doing the right thing from an interest perspective for Europe in the" }, { "start": 4005.79, "end": 4010.35, "text": " region for itself internally for itself with regards to you know Russia Ukraine" }, { "start": 4010.35, "end": 4014.95, "text": " but also with regards to its role today and in the future in the world and in" }, { "start": 4014.95, "end": 4020.15, "text": " supporting this rules-based order so let's see what you do but get up and do" }, { "start": 4020.15, "end": 4026.25, "text": " something Europeans come on thank you Jamai this was the very first episode of" }, { "start": 4026.25, "end": 4030.63, "text": " the apican podcast thank you very much for listening" }, { "start": 4030.63, "end": 4037.23, "text": " apican stands for European Palestinian Israeli trilateral dialogue an initiative" }, { "start": 4037.23, "end": 4041.27, "text": " that creates and foster spaces for dialogue between Palestinian and" }, { "start": 4041.27, "end": 4047.75, "text": " Israeli peace advocates and European opinion leaders apican is implemented" }, { "start": 4047.75, "end": 4053.07, "text": " by the canid foundation with the financial support of the European Union" }, { "start": 4053.07, "end": 4058.51, "text": " for more information visit the canid website and follow us on our epic on" }, { "start": 4058.51, "end": 4069.75, "text": " social media accounts linked in the description" } ]